Re: Adjusting Ph of de-ionized water for FW-Dip 4/11/07
Hi,
<I'll summarize, since our server just erased the paragraph I typed to you on my lunch-break at work. Drop a line back with the names of the buffering products you are using, and try to familiarize yourself with the differences between de-ionized water and tapwater, specifically lack of buffering capacity.>
I have a basic question that has been a major point of frustration for me.   I'm trying to do freshwater dips on marine fish, and am having MAJOR problems controlling PH when I try to adjust the freshwater from 7 to 8-8.4.  I've searched and read many FAQs on WetWeb, but haven't seen any that dealt with my problem - this makes me think I'm doing something obviously wrong, but just can't seem to figure out what.  I've had a coral reef tank for several years, and have never had problems controlling the ph on it, but I would like to be able to do freshwater dips on new fish (currently, I'm only able to quarantine because I can't properly ph-adjust my freshwater).  
I start with freshwater obtained from a R/O with Deion canister.      I  aerate my R/O water to get rid of the Co2 and get a ph of right around 7.0.  I also use a TDS meter to ensure that the TDS of my freshwater is below 4 PPM.  (it usually is either 0 or 1 - the TDS from my R/O-Deion seems to be a little lower in PPM than store-bought distilled water).   
So, I start with freshwater with a ph of 7.0, and around 0-1 ppm in TDS.   I then try to buffer the water up to around 8.0 - 8.4 and this is where I have my problem.  No mater what buffer I use (baking soda oar marine buffer from multiple manufacturers, or products designed for adjusting the ph up or down) I always WAY overshoot the PH.  Usually, the PH slams from 7.0 to right up to 9.0-11.0.   I've used multiple PH meters/pens to measure the PH, and these have been calibrated repeatedly with calibration solutions, and they seem to read saltwater fine.  I've tried different canisters of the buffers (to eliminate bad batches)    I've tried slowly adding the buffers (i.e., just a few grains at a time) to the freshwater, but I just can't seem to get a ph of 8-8.4.   The ph starts to move off of 7.0, but then it suddenly jumps to 9.0 or higher.  I've tried to lower the ph by adding more freshwater and even bubbling CO2 (from a calcium reactor), but I just can't seem to get the granularity of control on the ph - it seems to jump by 2 or 3 points even when I make small adjustments - targeting the 8-8.4 range seems extremely difficult.  (I think I'd have problems getting my freshwater to the 8-8.4 range if I spent an entire day in the attempt).    The volume of the freshwater I'm working with ranges from 1-5 gallons.
However, when I try making adjustments to saltwater - either freshly mixed or from my tank, I seem to have no problems - the buffers seem to work properly and don't give me the large ph swings.  This makes me think I'm doing something wrong with freshwater I'm using, but I have no idea what it is.   Either that or all of my ph meters/pens aren't reading the ph of freshwater correctly (although I doubt this, because they all read the same values for the freshwater when I'm attempting the ph-adjust, and they calibrate correctly).
From the FAQs/files on WetWeb, it looks like the freshwater, ph-adjusted dips should be easy and trivial to perform, but the ph-adjusting step has proven to be almost impossible for me to control.  
My questions are:
1) Is ph-adjusting freshwater really this difficult?  Shouldn't the buffers just move the ph to the 8-8.4 range and avoid under/overshooting unless greatly under/overdosed?
2) If ph-adjusting IS really this difficult, what am I doing wrong that can be corrected?
3) If ph-adjusting ISN'T supposed to be difficult, any ideas on what's causing my problems?
Thanks!
--
Tony
<Welcome, sorry for the web-trouble!
-GrahamT>

Re: Adjusting Ph of de-ionized water for FW-Dip (reprise) 4/11/07
Wet Web Crew,
Thanks for the response.  
<Welcome. Sorry again for the curt reply. I was at work and the server cut me off mid-reply. That'll learn me to use an external word processor to do my editing.>
Here are the products I've tried:
- baking soda (sodium bicarbonate - Arm and Hammer)
- Reef Buffer (SeaChem)
- Marine buffer (SeaChem)
- marine aquarium buffer (Kent)
- proper PH 8.2
- several others
<Mmm-hmm.>
I realize that the products I'm using are probably working properly (and I think they are - they seem to work fine in saltwater both fresh mixed and from my tank) and that its something I'm probably doing incorrectly.   You mention that I should familiarize myself with the buffering capacity of deionized - I believe I have (I know that deionized water has almost no buffering capacity).  My problem is even after doing a large amount of web/WetWeb searching and trial/error, I can't figure out why I'm having so much difficulty with the 'ph-adjusting' step of a freshwater dip - if you combine the research and freshwater attempts I've made, I've easily put in weeks of time on this problem.   
<I think there is someone here (on WWM) that could explain the chemistry behind this better than I. I won't get into that. The way I go about adjusting de-ionized water for FW-Dips is to use API "Ph Adjuster" and "Electro-right". I originally used these products on a lark because they were packaged with my D.I. filter, but they worked! AS with any Ph adjustment, however, you need to be patient while the water stabilizes. You can't expect to change the Ph of the water (any water) as quickly as the stuff dissolves. It takes time for the water to reach equilibrium. I think I did this a few times when I was first trying the FW-Dip without a stable, Ph-adjusted source of water that had been that way for a few days. I tried to adjust, waited a few minutes for the test results to develop and added more buffer, thus over-dosing.>
Your response implies that you know what is causing my problem - can you tell me what you think is causing my problem ph-adjusting the deionized water?  
<Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I knew what was up and didn't feel like sharing. Not the case at all.>
Should I be using tap water instead of deionized water - is that the cause of my problem?.  
<Could, the Dip doesn't last long enough for any contaminants to do any real harm, but we usually try to make this as stress-less as possible, so I think you are doing the right thing by using treated water. Perhaps you could try skipping the D.I> stage?>
Or is the ph-adjusting step of a freshwater dip actually a very complex and extremely difficult thing to complete (I doubt that it is - I think I'm missing something extremely simple)?
<I think you already know more about adjusting Ph than me, so you're off to a good start.>
Thanks!
--
Tony
<Good luck!
-GrahamT>

Question about a FW dip
How do I increase the PH in the FW dip without adding any salt mixture?
<aeration for several hours first (O2 saturation and drives of carbonic acid) then a small amount of baking soda if necessary. Anthony>

Question about a FW dip
How do I increase the PH in the FW dip without adding any salt mixture?
<You can add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or a commercial preparation like "pH Up"... This is discussed on WetWebMedia.com under "Marine pH, alkalinity".
Bob Fenner>

pH in marine dips
WWM Crew
I want to thank you for your past help you have giving me, and the great service you provide for the hobby.
Could you please tell me the best method to use when trying to match the PH for a fresh water dip?
Should I buffer with baking soda then test with a freshwater ph test (if so then where do I get one that reads high enough?),
<Most all will go to the 7.8 or so that sodium bicarbonate will raise the pH to>
or should I test with saltwater ph test, or should I just do as my LFS says, and dump a couple of tsps of Arm & Hammer into a bag of fresh water and go for it?
<A seawater assay would work... the amount of baking soda is as you state not likely to be overdosed>
I am confused. Thanks for your help.
Rick
<Keep studying my friend... the KOH of this compound is not high enough to be problematical. Bob Fenner>

- Clarification on pH Shock -
Hi guys!
<Hello.>
I've read so much of your site that if I was making minimum wage reading it I'd be rich. I also set up my tank using CMA as the supplementary guide along w/ WWM. Indispensable both, & I could not have done my setup without it.
My question is, I cannot find a single thing anywhere about what to DO about pH shock. I see it mentioned occasionally & a few dire hints about it, but not what it exactly is, is caused by, or most important, how to TREAT it. <Hmm... well, without going any further, I can answer those questions - pH shock is simply a drastic change in water conditions [specifically pH] encountered by some living organism to whom the pH is important. So... let's talk about marine fish who are used to a range of pH 8.2 to 8.4. Because pH is a logarithmic scale a change from 7.0 to 8.0 is in fact a change of 10 times greater - moving in tenths of points [0.1 to 0.2] is a doubling of the factor, as moving down in tenths of points [0.2 to 0.1] is a halving of the acid/base quality of the water. Because the ocean is so large, these numbers rarely if ever change so marine fish aren't really equipped to deal with sudden, and potentially large changes in pH. If a fish has been in a bag for shipping for a day or so, the pH of its water typically drops into the high sevens... if you were to move the same fish immediately into traditional holding water of pH 8.2, it would experience pH shock. And no, there's nothing one can 'do' to remedy the problem. There are plenty of things one can do to avoid it. The pH shock becomes a source of stress which will go onto the existing pile of stress - depending on the individual, this can either tip the balance in the wrong direction or the fish will make it through to the other side. It depends a lot on how much the fish has been through up and to that point.>
I had a Volitans Lionfish who died just now & I'm 99% sure it's due to pH shock. I say this because he was fine for a week or so in his tank. Water conditions were fine (obsessively measured w/ Salifert tests for pH, ammonia, nitrites & nitrates every day or two). Water had been running a bit hot (sometimes climbing to 83.5 or so but never more than a degree a day change). The temperature thing has been remedied (not enough evaporation/eel-proofed tight glass top).
I got a Foxface Rabbitfish & decided as per CMA to dip him prior to introduction. I used RO water from LFS I had matched to the tank's temp, w/ some "AP Quick Cure" (Formalin/Malachite Green dip mix) & buffered the water with Kent Marine Superbuffer dKH (which per the label is for raising & buffering pH & building KH). I mixed this up & let it sit a while then dipped the Foxface, who had been in panic coloration on his way home from the store. He went limp & drifted almost instantly. <Many fish do this in the bath... is sometimes more stressful for the person doing the dipping work than it is for the fish - think you could have skipped the quick cure though - you are not exposing them to the treatment long enough for it to do any good. Better to just run the fish through a pH-adjusted freshwater dip - perhaps with Methylene blue if you'd like, but not necessary.> I spooked & netted him out & put him in the tank after MAYBE 30 seconds (he'd already been slow-drip acclimated).
I had planned to dip the Lion as well since he had not been when he was introduced a week & a half ago (my only other fish) & went over the instructions for freshwater dips as per CMA. I convinced myself that it was normal for the fish to freak out a bit & that I had to exercise some "tough love" & that he had to stay in there for the 2-10 minutes. I nabbed him & put him in the dip. He sat on the bottom lazily & was breathing regularly. I set a timer for 2 minutes & watched him the whole time. Put him back in the tank & he seemed ok.
Well, he spent the entire afternoon & night on the sand bed, breathing seemingly regularly but listless (which is pretty usual for him anyway minus the being on the sand part). I figured he was aggravated & stressed but nothing unexpected from being dipped in freshwater, etc..
The next afternoon he had not improved, having merely moved to different positions on the bottom two or three times. When I came back an hour later & checked on them, the Foxface seems a-ok, swimming around, nibbling algae, back to his normal coloration. The Lion was floating nose-down dead along the bottom & his fins had already started fraying off! <I'm sorry to hear of this loss.>
Sorry for the long email but I'm upset & trying to provide all possible pertinent detail. I can only assume the Kent buffer did not work (or have time to work?) or at least that was my first instinct. <Takes time to work - I usually prepare my freshwater dips before I head to the store so that everything has evened out by the time I make it home with a bag in my hand.> I looked on various forums & came up with the info that "people assume buffering the water then dipping is ok...it's not". Was it pH shock that killed the Lion, & if so how could I have saved him, if at all? <Hard to say for certain - it could have also been the Formalin in the quick cure you put in the bath. This is actually really 'bad' [toxic] stuff and I've had similar results as you - dip one fish and it does fine, dip the next fish and it turns stiff almost instantly.> I feel like I killed a healthy fish through sheer gross idiocy & messing with what would have been ok had I left it alone. <Maybe so, maybe not... there is an old(?) axiom in the trade that if the fish didn't make it through the dip, it wasn't going to make it anyway. I'm sure this is no consolation to you, but it's quite possible that this fish was compromised long before you got a hold of it. Considering the Rabbitfish is still around - and I'd consider it a less hardy fish than a lionfish - I'd say something was already brewing with the lionfish and the dip just accelerated the process.>
I now see that a lot of people (mainly reefers?) seem to revile freshwater dips period. <Not me... I think they are quite useful.> I guess my questions is threefold: was it the dip, was it pH shock, & how should pH shock be treated? <Again, hard to be certain it was any of these, and pH shock can only be avoided, not treated but also is rarely the single cause of mortality, but one factor among many that bring around the end of the fish.> I think this info would aid some people greatly & at the least it should be added to the database at WWM to make sure people are aware of this. <Well, we do try to get the word out, and most certainly this will go into the collection.> I consider myself very well informed & research everything before doing it & still I fell face first onto this one somehow. ;(
<Don't be too hard on yourself. Cheers, J -- >

Adjusting Freshwater pH for Dipping 
>I have searched and searched (various search engines, sites, worded a thousand different ways) and the directions for preparing freshwater dips say to adjust the pH, but nobody says how. 
>>Ah, quite the conundrum my friend. 
>I have been trying Proper pH 8.2, which is supposed to buffer water to 8.2 automatically, but it does not work. It always makes the pH way to high! 
>>Well, what's the fresh water's pH BEFORE you try to adjust it? That would make a difference. 
>Is this because it's for use on saltwater, not fresh? 
>>I'm not familiar with this product, so I couldn't speak to its efficacy in salt vs. fresh water. 
>If so, what AM I supposed to use? I've heard of using baking soda, but nobody says what ratio to use. 
>>That's because all freshwater is NOT the same. 
>What is the best way to buffer regular filtered water up to 8.0? 
>>Filtered in what way? If it's RO/DI, then many folks recommend using Aquarium Systems SeaBuffer and Seachem's Reef Builder and Marine Buffer are all good products. However, it's important to test prior to using this. When performing freshwater dips, unless your municipal water is just terrible, I would adjust its pH in small increments (for instance, experiment a teaspoon at a time with about 2 gallons of water), I would go the sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) route--simple, always available, and CHEAP. 
>Please help, my fish has ich and I am desperate. 
>>As I see, for which I apologize for the lateness of this reply. The person in whose inbox this was is having computer troubles, I've discovered this evening that it hadn't been answered. Marina 
thanks. Erin Rodriguez 

Adjusting Freshwater pH for Dipping II
>Thanks Marina. 
>>You're welcome, Erin. 
>The water is RO water, fresh, no salt. 
>>Ok. 
>pH is 7.4 to start with. I was reading closer in the buffer's instructions and it said to add the salt first then use the buffer, so apparently, it is not for use in fresh water. 
>>I'm not sure what buffer you're using, but I'm positive that it's best to buffer your RO water *before* you add salt.. I believe I posted to you a couple of good brands (recommend by Anthony Calfo). 
>So I guess I can go the bicarbonate route. 
>>Hey, absolutely! It can get expensive using other stuff, especially for a freshwater dip. 
>I've heard other people say, don't bother adjusting the pH for a 4 minute freshwater dip. 
>>Oh my God, NO! Adjust it, make SURE you adjust it. Most folks don't understand how QUICKLY pH shock can kill, I think in part because it's difficult for us terrestrial creatures to wrap our minds around what it feels like to be immersed in this life-giving liquid. Osmotic pressure differences, due to salinity levels, are another one many folks surprisingly have a hard time getting their minds around as well. 
>I've also heard people say that adding too much bicarbonate will pollute the water in some way. 
>>Oh bugger that. It's plain wrong, and shows a misunderstanding of water chemistry. 
>My other question is, when I am adding top off water, do most people adjust the pH, or do they just dump it in at the current pH? 
>>If you're topping off with the RO water, you really MUST buffer it so as to prevent shifts in pH. Once buffered, especially if using a quality product, little pH adjustment is necessary beyond that. A pH of 7.4 from RO isn't very bad at all, should be very easily brought up with a good buffer. Look into the B-Ionic, it's getting RAVE reviews quite often on the net by other hobbyists. 
>I have done that in the past and my pH has always stayed stable, I was just wondering if/how most people adjust their top off water's pH. 
>>Those who've done research, I would say always do. Of course, there's no way to actually quantitatively figure out actual numbers or percentages. If you've been able to go this route with no changes in pH, well.. on one hand I say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", but on the other I would be wary. I'm thinking that you probably do enough water changes on a regular basis that you've prevented any dangerous episodes. 
>Any help is appreciated, thanks. 
>>Well, I hope I've answered you pH adjustment questions, it's really a very simple procedure to adjust with the sodium bicarbonate for a dip of several minutes. The issue with playing with pH with products that can't hold it is that the pH will shift, and as I said before that can kill very quickly. Marina