Omnivorous Snails eat starfish? and Elegance coral care  10/14/08
Hi Crew,
<Trent>
1)
I bought a 2in. red sea star (Fromia milleporella) that seemed to be doing well for a few days (i.e. it was moving around) until I found it one morning apparently half eaten. The outer pigmented layer of tissue seemed to be torn off. The only critters I have in my tank (that I know of) that could have done this are three fairly large Nassarius distortus. Have you ever heard of this happening?
<Mmm, yes... though, it may well be/have been that the Fromia perished, was perishing and the snails were just opportunistic... not predaceous>
2)
I'd like to try to keep an elegance coral (Catalaphyllia jardinei). I've read what you have about them on WWM and I feel that my tank can support one. The only area I'm concerned about is my lighting. My Elegance would be coming from Australia and I've heard that these require more light because they're harvested from a shallower depth than those of other locales. My tank is 16in. deep with a 2in. sand bed and my lighting is a 70W 14000K MH. Is this sufficient? Should I try a lower bulb temperature? Use supplemental CF or VHO?
<The temp. will likely be fine, I would add more intensity... Perhaps double or triple this over the Elegance>
Thanks for the help guys and gals,
Trent
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Two Bits of Info/Comments. That Fish Place event/PA and Elegance habitat   4/19/08
Hey Crew! Hope all is well with you. I wanted to share some info that might be helpful to fellow hobbyists. That Fish Place in Lancaster, PA is holding a 35th anniversary extravaganza tomorrow and Sunday (4/18-19) with lots of sale items and presentations by the likes of Steven Pro and Anthony Calfo. Just thought people who live near this store might want to know/be interested.
<Ahh, thank you for this>
Also, I read a lot of posts/responses here about people keeping incompatible life forms together in their reef tanks. I got this month's edition of "Freshwater & Marine Aquarium" and there is a great article on efforts to restore/preserve reefs around the world, particularly in the Florida Keys. In any event, unless the photo has been photoshopped, there is a picture of (I think) an Indonesian reef site where some type of anemone (I believe a long-tipped--but it could also be an Elegance Coral, as I'm no ID expert) is right up next to/growing in between some plating Montipora. Maybe it's just my ignorance, but I was under the impression that these two animals were examples of those that don't live in close proximity and shouldn't be kept together.
<This is so>
I guess when you have the whole ocean, compatibility/allelopathy becomes less of a problem!
<Perhaps... but... I have never seen any other Cnidarian species growing next to a Catalaphyllia in the wild... Elegance grow in "muddy settings" (actually with their apical/pointed end of their skeletons "dug into the muck"... with no Scleractinians et al. about in proximity. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/elegance.htm>
Anyway . . . take care and keep up the good work.
Andy
<Cheers. Bob Fenner>

Re: Two Bits of Info/Comments  4/19/08
Thanks for the info Bob. Do take a look at the photo I referenced if you get a chance. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on what the picture shows.
Andy
<I do have a copy of the mag. at home... but am out in San Antonio giving a pitch at MAAST... will try to remember to take a look on my return. Cheers! BobF>

Adapting Elegance coral to new lights  - 03/22/06
Howdy!
My tank is 55g long w/ 25 gallon upstream refugium, under-gravel filter with 1 inch sand bed in display tank, and  6 inch sand bed in the refugium.  Lights are 130w PC 10k/actinic (on 13 hours) and 130w PC 10k/6500 (on 10 hours) in the main tank, plus 2 15w 6500 lights in the refugium (on 12 hours alternate from main tank).  There is about 60 lbs live rock, plus maybe 15 in the refugium.  I have a Millennium power filter, and achieve
<Heee!>
light skimming with a Sea-Clone skimmer.  Currently there is a large bed of  Caulerpa and Sargassum macro algae in the refugium. I plan to move toward better quality macro algae soon, and switch to one type. Ammonia 0, Nitrate 0, PH 8.4, dKH 9, Ca 410, sg 1.024, temp 77. Main inhabitants include green zoanthid polyps, orange/yellow polyps, medium green star polyp (which has tripled), elegance coral, hammer coral, green open brain, green/red closed brain, Condy anemone, yellow carpet anemone.  I realize after reading your site in detail that there may be some problems with the carpet.
<Mmm, among other Cnidarian interactions here...>
The Condy has been in the same place for two years, and it took several months for the carpet to find a place.  It seems happier for the last couple of months now at least.  The tank is two years old, and nothing has been added in the last 9 months until recently.  Please advise how I might improve the general set up.
<Really not much. Maybe switch out the actinic/s... definitely making it much larger would help.>
I started with crushed coral in the main tank but have moved to fine sand over the past year.  I have just one patch of crushed coral left.  Should I cap my under-gravel filter at this point?
<You could>
I hate to give it up.  I have no problem with nitrates from it, though I believe it is a real drag on my alkalinity.
<I see>
My main problem is with my lighting and the new elegance coral I added to the main tank about a week ago.  It really seemed to melt under my lights.  So, I switched one of the 130w PC fixtures from super-daylight (10k/6500) to 50/50 bulbs (10k/actinic) for the early part of the day, and would put in the super-daylight bulbs in for a few hours in the afternoon.  I've been doing that for at least five days, and the coral seems much better.
<Likely adaptation from being shipped, in the dark...>
I tried to increase the amount of time the super-daylight bulbs were in yesterday (by two hours), and the coral really didn't like it.  It reacts by deflating its tentacles and shrinking back into the shell.  Unfortunately, I had also switched it's orientation just a bit at the same time.  I oriented in a more upward position (cone down), than side-ways position as it had been when I bought it and how I first placed it in my tank.  So, I'm not sure if it was reacting so much because of the added white light, or because it was getting more of that light with its new orientation, or both.
<Both>
I'm wondering if I just need to go a little slower trying to adapt this coral to my super-daylight bulb (and more upward orientation), or just go with the 50/50 all the time?
<Should adapt to the higher light in time>
The other tank inhabitants don't seem to mind the 50/50 bulb too much, except the carpet seems more perky with the white light.  Thanks in advance for any help!
Dave Wallace
<Have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/acclimcoralslight.htm
Our coverage on Euphylliids? Bob Fenner>

Elegance corals and substrate 8/31/05
Hi my trusted masters,
<Hello my dearest Bernard>
The substrate of my tank is about 2 inches of crushed coral (Florida Crushed Coral, 2-5mm grain size).  I love to add Elegance Coral to my collection, but I am worry about damaging its underside because my substrate is not soft enough.  Do you think the worry is unwarranted? Similar concern applies to Nassarius snails and other sand-bottom dwellers, assuming I have good water parameters, do you think they can live in my coarse substrate?
I have a 46g tank with 50+ lb of live rock, PH 8.0-8.3, Temp 80, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate < 5, Calcium 400, dKH 10.  I do bi-weekly 5% water change.  I Have two Ocellaris Clowns, 3 Yellow-tail Damsels, 2 Cleaner Shrimp, 4 Turbo Snails, many small Hermit Crabs, all seem very happy. Thank you very much for your help.
Bernard
<Substrate is not a crucial factor with these corals, however and this is a big however - be warned that the elegance corals of today unfortunately do not hold the same almost indestructible and bullet-proof status of several years back. Seemingly healthy elegance corals, suddenly begin to shrivel down in size within a few weeks to several months in captivity and ultimately meet their demise. Research is currently being conducted as to why these corals are all of a sudden dying in our aquariums. Many believe poor handling/shipping techniques and/or new collection environments/regions are to blame. Either way, I would avoid this particular species unless you are able to find a cultured one from a fellow hobbyist/friend. - Ali>

Elegant orientation
The elegance is already in the bottom third - it's actually a horseshoe shape, and I have it mounted above the sand, but horizontal, not vertical.  
<really needs its natural orientation for long term success/survival (vertical here)>
Really?  I misunderstood what I read, then - I was under the impression that it was best to mount elegance horizontal (that is, the horseshoe shape is parallel with the ground).  In the case of horseshoe, it's better to mount it vertical (meaning in the shape of a "U")?  I'll make the change tonight.
<don't change anything just yet... perhaps I have misunderstood from the general terminology that we have been using. Lets be clear: the corallum (skeleton) of your coral has only one clear and natural orientation. This will be with the open ridge/envagination of the skeleton that holds the fleshy "meat" of the coral pointed straight up to the light. On the exact opposite end of this side, you will see the bottom of the skeleton where the coral was clearly sawn off the reef (place this downward). You can generally tell by incidental growths too on the skeleton which side was naturally upwards or otherwise shaded>
As for the lighting, I will put the 20K's back tonight then (2 days on 10Ks hopefully won't cause a major problem with the change back), leave them with the normal photoperiod, and continue using the screens to acclimate (down to 8 layers! :))...thanks again for the advice...Arthur
<awesome, bud... best regards! Anthony>

Elegant coral on rock? 10/8/03
I've read your article:
Catalaphyllia; What’s Wrong With Your Elegance Coral, Family Caryophylliidae
and all the various FAQ pages and tons of various books and internet articles.  I would just like to know why the elegance can't be placed on live rock at all?  
<they are commonly collected from mud flats (notice the conical skeleton of most) and require, in part, the living soft substrate for micronutrients in the very microniche of their placement on the sand>
I have a specific piece of live rock that has a huge flat surface on top (sort of like a table-top) that I would love to put the elegance on it.  there's probably no risk of the elegance falling off and getting injured.  
<its unnatural, and there is the added risk of wear and wounds to the living tissue from polyp cycles that come into contact with rock>
that area of my tank has very light water flow that is very indirect and the pc lighting is 10-12 inches away from that flat spot.  should I lower the temp. of my tank?  
<not relevant>
it's currently at 80 degrees?  
<no worries... just keep it stable>
I have no fish or inverts yet, wanted to make the elegance work first, tank has been up for about 5 months now with just a clean-up crew of various snails.  I know... I've been very indecisive!  no amm. or trites, trates at... right now at 8ppm.  sp. grav. at 1.023-1.024.  I would love to be able to put the elegance at that spot but if it's not possible, please let me know... also where can I get some of that seagrass (Thalassia)?  thanks bob!
Seattle hobbyist
<now you are thinking, my friend... a deep sand bed, seagrass and a beautiful elegant coral placed naturally amidst it on the sandy bottom. For Thalassia, do check with your LFS that order from Fiji... Thalassia seed pods are available seasonally from the wholesalers for those that ask. Else, ask your LFS to contact their Atlantic supplier (the one that gets them Astraea snails and hermit crabs) for actual plants. Best regards, Anthony>

Elegance Coral 12/5/03
Thank you for telling me about placing on the bottom, I will try to
extricate it after I ask for yet more advice.  It did come attached to the live rock though
<interesting... perhaps best to leave it be>
and it looked much worse, hardly any green around the edges
and almost never opened at the LFS.  The only question I have is there are several stringy, bright, orange growths attached to the live rock and the skeleton of the coral, I am not sure what they are, and I am afraid if I break them it might be detrimental to the coral.  
<they are not part of the coral... sponge or some other sessile invertebrate>
I have spent several months getting to this state and would sure hate to hurt or kill it after seeing it recuperate this far.  If you know what the bright orange stringy growths are, I would sure like to know, and if I can safely move this coral to the substrate without damaging it. Thanks again Craig B.  
<lets leave the coral in place if the skeleton is wall-like (not conical) and simply compensate by feeding it small portions regularly (weekly or better). No worries. Anthony>

Elegance placement
Hi,
<HI>
say I sent out a question over the weekend about lighting over
Elegance Corals ? Haven't heard from you , I know you get Lots of
questions , but what I read here on the sight and other forums is
controversy to what type of lighting is needed. Would like your opinion I have 90gl. reef of 5 years 2 175 watt metal halides 10,000k 2 VHO 110 actinics was wondering placement of this coral, some say lots of light others say shade it some! Thank you Brian
<Brian, over the years of keeping this animal I have found them to do best in the substrate (out in full light), were they are found in the wild or near the bottom of the tank) MikeH>

Elegance coral care 12/3/03
Hello, I have an interest in purchasing an elegance coral, I have been reading much about their difficult survival rate and understand that lately this past year due to where and how they are collected this is changing.
<hmmm... sort of. Really a matter fo being an educated consumer and knowing what to look for (avoid the pale greens with dark purple tips that are collected at great depth... or be prepared to keep such animals in specialized aquaria)>
The question I have is on how much light they need?
<depends on the depth of tank, type of specimen collected, etc>
My reef tank of five years has 2, 175 watt 10,000 k and 2 110 who actinics on it, just what type of placement does this coral need for lighting?
<under these lights, I'd say on a sand bottom at approximately 12-18" deep>
some articles say shaded with little water flow and the sites to purchase from say ideal center piece with high light out put on them!
<the conical skeletons clearly indicate animals that need to be placed in the sand/on the bottom. Some elegance (rarer( are collected from hard substrates though and have wall like corallums that have clearly been chiseled. They can be placed on rock. The slow water flow recommendation is incorrect and dangerous for most corals. Moderate flow (10X) minimum needed here>
Just confused and would like a good idea on care and placement before buying this coral. Thanks Brian
<more importantly... know that you must feed this hungry coral (like many LPS) 3-5 times weekly. Best regards, Anthony><

Lighting for Catalaphyllia Elegant coral 6/9/04
I was wondering if you could help me with a question regarding elegance coral. I recently bought an elegance coral, and just found out from the web about how much harder it is to keep them than before (probably because of collection methods and location of collections).
<seems to be some truth to this yes, but once you get any established, they can be quite hardy if well fed (weekly or better with very fine meats)>
At the moment I have a fairly deep tank (about 30" deep). I'm have 4 light tubes. 2 blue, 2 white actinic 12000kelvin.
<are these standard output tubes? If so, their light does not penetrate usefully for corals much below 8-10". Keep all coral at the top if possible excluding sand dwellers like your conical skeleton elegant perhaps>
I have 2 powerheads and all my water parameters are good, however I just wanted to know the best location to put the coral. Currently I have it fairly high up, approx top 1/3 of the tank, but from my readings I have realized that this coral does not need strong lighting requirements and may die (?) .
<halides can shock it... but not your fluorescents... not likely at all>
Is it okay if I leave the coral where it is ?
<depends... if this coral has a cone shaped skeleton (versus a cleaved wall), then it needs to be buried in the sand>
or should I put it further down? in addition, is it okay if I put it on the bottom of my tank running the lights that I have?
Thanks
<no common fluorescents can really penetrate deep enough to keep any coral at the bottom of a 30" tank. We may have a compatibility problem here (elegant needs to be on the bottom but needs better/brighter light). Do feed well/extra in the meantime to compensate for light. Best regards, Anthony>

Elegance Coral Color and My lighting 5/26/04
Hey crew,
<Whassup G-money?>
Hope things are well with all of you. Been a long time since I asked a question. I know that elegance corals are kind hard to keep as of late but I decided to give one a try. He is only about 5-6" in length and 1.5-2 in diameter. 
<if the corallum (skeleton) is conical, then it must be kept in the sand and likely needs lower light and more feedings (3-5 times weekly). If the skeleton is "wall" in formation and clearly sawn/cleaved from a reef... it may be higher light/tolerant>
He opens up about twice the size during the day and shrinks at night. My problem is this: the coral seems to be losing its green and purple colors. 
<this is no problem... simply a response to a lack of UV light in your lamps>
I have it placed at about 10" from the surface on a rock (should I move it to the substrate?) light is about 3" from water surface. The water flow is very little just enough for the tentacles to move a little now and then. 
<more water flow needed I'm sure>
I guess another question is the tentacles. My elegance coral doesn't have long tentacles the shrink to about .25cm at night and are only about 1.0cm during the day. Is this a problem or are there elegance with short tentacles???
<polyp tentacle length is wholly influenced by water flow and changes accordingly. No worries :) >
Thank you, Todd Hawman
<Best regards, Anthony>
Hey guys, Sorry for the second email I forgot to mention my set up. I have a 90 gallon tank, AquaLight 4 x 65 watt (2 x 65 10K, 2 x 65 actinic),
<yikes! this is very low light even for LPS like Elegant. The "rule of thumb" is about 5 watts per gallon of daylight (actinics don't count here). Fluorescent lit systems need this much or more (than halides) for their poor penetration of water at depth. Your tank here has less than 2 watts per gallon of daylight (10K). Scary my friend... please do upgrade... and feed all corals very well in the meantime to compensate for the low light>
ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm and nitrate about 10 ppm. 3 false percula, 1 algae blenny, 1 yellow tang, 1 royal dotty back, 1 green brittle star,
<Doh! another flag here... if your star is O. incrassata, the infamous Green Brittle starfish, then you can expect it to eventually catch and kill something desirable in your tank (small fish, clams, etc.)>
2 cleaner shrimp, 1 banded coral shrimp 2 turban snails and various crabs. I have also been battling red hair algae.
<most any nuisance algae can easily be cured in 2-4 weeks by better control of nutrients. Look to aggressive nutrient export like improved protein skimmer performance (tweak and tune it to produce daily dark skimmate or nearly so). Water changes and carbon/PolyFilter use will help too>
Thanks again, Todd Hawman
<kindly, Anthony> 

Elegance Coral
Hey Steven,
<Ryan in his place today>
Just bought an elegance coral (purple tip) and was hoping to get a little more professional insight. <Fire away> 
I read over some of the info here and on wetwebforums.com and found, what I hope is right, that they like little current, little light and a sand bed?? Don't elegance occur on a reef attached to the rock? <Typically- But varies><<Actually found in soft substrates. RMF>> I was hoping to place mine on a rock about 10-12" from the top near the back of the tank with lower current. <I would place it in the top 8" of water depending on your lighting> 
My lighting, in case you don't remember as I know you get lots of questions, is an Aqualight 4x65 watt. <PC? VHO? Sounds ok, but I would recommend that you ask these questions BEFORE you buy for an animal. Thanks, Ryan> Hope you can provide me with some insight.
Thank you in advance,
Todd Hawman

Elegance coral placement 1/2/04
Thank you so much for your article on WWM. I recently purchased a green elegance and they gave good advice but your article gave me insight to its natural habitat. Now by  "point down" you mean the cone shaped tip of its hard skeleton right?
<correct>
I had it in the lower to mid section of the tank but is placing it on the  substrate best?
<it is arguably necessary for optimal feeding opportunities (micronutrients from substrate) and care of polyp cycles (avoiding abrasion on unnatural rock)>
Thanks.
<very welcome... best of luck. Anthony>

Torch Coral (Euphyllia glabrescens) placement
I have a question about lighting requirements for the torch coral.
Since placement on a sandy bottom is preferred, 
<placement on the sand bottom is neither preferred or recommended. This Euphylliid occurs only on hard substrates in the wild and will suffer if forced to purge sand deposited by sifters. The confusion may stem from the fact that such coral care best often in the bottom 1/3 of the tank under metal halide lights. Indeed... they do not like or require extremely bright light. They do however need weekly feedings with fine minced meaty foods>
would it get enough light in an 20" tall tank even though I am only using 2 96 watt 10K power compacts? Thanks
<it may not get enough light here, but you can compensate for the lack of light to some extent with extra feedings (weekly instead of a few times weekly). Best regards, Anthony>

Re: Torch Coral (Euphyllia glabrescens)... Elegant Coral?
Anthony,
<cheers, mate>
I think I may have been confusing Euphyllia with Catalaphyllia (elegance), this is actually what I wanted to know about. 
<ahhh, yes! You are correct my friend. Indeed they fare best on the sand bottom. The exception in the Euphylliid family>
Can they thrive in low light conditions on the sandy bottom of the tank? My bad.
<no worries... and yes, indeed they can thrive at the bottom of the aquarium. Especially if you have the purple tipped variety which is often indicative of a specimen collected in rather deep waters (60-80 feet down). The key to keeping elegant corals successfully is frequent feeding with very fine foods. They are one of the hungriest coral. If fed almost daily with small bits (never offer larger than 1/4-1/2 inch although they will take it), they will thrive and grow nicely. Your lights will be fine for this coral on the bottom of a 20" deep tank. Help all along with weekly water changes, good skimming and weekly changes of small amounts of carbon to maintain great water clarity. If you haven't read it yet... see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fdreefinverts.htm
and here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marlgtganthony.htm>
Thanks Angelo
<best regards, Anthony>

Elegance problems and alkalinity
Dear Blundell, This is Diane, (Tom's wife), again. Sorry if I sounded flippant about names in the last letter but I didn't know that it says Tom's name right at the top of the e-mail. The only e-mails I send or receive are with you guys. Gotta get out more! 
< No worries, I to spend much time conversing with reef nerds. > 
(Besides the LFSs!) And you were right, when addressed to Adam got Adam, imagine that! And a very helpful chap too. Anyhow, per your suggestion I added one cup of Kalkwasser (Reef Evolution, Aquarium Systems, mixed per directions) to my top-off water, wrote back to say that my pH had not changed, got Adam, and had not done anything until yesterday because I was waiting for my test refills. If you can't test for it, don't add it! However, Yesterday (Feb. 8) one of my powerheads slipped and was blowing sand around. 
< I hate it when that happens. > 
(Talk about a love/hate relationship). After reattaching it, I was using my hand to "gently" waft the sand off my Elegance coral and pieces of his flesh blew away!!! 
< Not the best of things to see. > 
I immediately started a water test and water change of at least 10%. Before water change there were 0 nitrites, 0 ammonia, less than 10 nitrates (but higher than normal), pH less than 8.0, alk. 2 meq/L. After water change everything was the same
except nitrates which dropped. And this morning everything remains the same except nitrates are less than 5 and I will do another 10% w/c. When in doubt, change some water! 
< I tend to agree, but I'd be careful to not stress the fish or other inhabitants. > 
The Elegance is almost completely gone. The coral's shell is approximately 4" and there is an area about the size of a quarter where the polyps are still there and inflated too. Also a few in between a couple of the flutes. Now, my order came today and with it the 2 part E.S.V. B-IONIC which both you and the Other Adam recommended. 
< Great stuff. Although with those water changes you probably won't need to add any for weeks. > 
In one reply you had said to add B-IONIC; we thought my calcium was between 375 and 425 so Let's assume that I am on the low end (I am awaiting my test refills which are on backorder, will be four days). Can you give me an opinion on the following and also any other suggestions for saving what I have left? I am going to change another 10% and add the B-IONIC according to the "starting dosage" recommended on the bottles, 1 ml. per 4 gallons of system water. 
< Okay, but freshly mixed water is great. I don't think you will really have to add anything. If you do use the B-Ionic I would dose once a week and not once a day for a while. > 
But it says to dose every day until reaching desired levels and was wondering if daily dosing was O.K. with just the alkalinity test. 
< Yes, some people like to dose different amounts. Basically you want to have your calcium and alkalinity in the "good area" then just add equal amounts in small quantities. > 
It is a 125 gal. acrylic but I figure with the DSB and all the rock that maybe it's closer to 100 gals. Also, I only have 175 watt single screw (mogul?) MH lights, 3 of them, 5500K with 2 36" blue PCs. < Wow, 5500 K? That is a super yellow light. Not bad, but rare. > 
Could this be the problem? I know now is a hell of a time to ask, after I've killed everything! But since I can't change the wattage of the MHs just now I was thinking that when I replace them I could go with a "blue-er" K and change the PCs to 96 or 110 watt 10000K or 50/50? Something with more "daylight"? Again, thank you so much for all your help!!! 
< I think switching the halides to 10,000 K in the future would be a good move. But not necessary, and not worth the money at this time. Also, the Elegance may not be your fault at all. They have a terrible survival rate, and I wouldn't mess up the whole system to save (or attempt to save) just one Elegance. > Sincerely. Diane. (P.S. The powerhead had only been down a couple of minutes and there was not much sand on the Elegance but I had not seen him/it yesterday as I was out most of the day and the day before he was retracted a while but had done that before and seemed no worse for it when he would re-inflate.) PSS Why is the mixed Kalkwasser good for only four days if its in a sealed container? just curious. < I've never heard that. Hmmm, sorry I don't know. >
< Blundell >