Re: MACNA & Frag Exchange, StevenP   8/15/07
Yeah Mac, it is official now. Frag Exchange is not going to be an exhibitor at MACNA XIX, so if you can, get one of the WWM passes.
In case you were wondering, I have long hated that the coral propagation workshops fragment freshly imported corals. It is simply poor husbandry and contrary to what Eric, Anthony, and I all recommend. But up until now, I could do nothing about it other than not do the workshops. But this year, we made the decision to only fragment corals that had been held for 1-2 months prior to the show. I let John know this back in early May and he agreed to the terms.
MACNA XIX would give Frag Exchange a quad booth, four 10' by 10' booths, with 5  full show passes provided he could obtain corals ahead of time. In the end, he failed to live up to his end and we felt we had no other choice than to go with  plan B and leave Frag Exchange out.

Re: MACNA & Frag Exchange , MacL    8/15/07
Hey Steven and Anthony and Eric and Bob,
I included you all in this email since Stephen said that having corals that have been kept for a while before they are used was a joint decision recommended by all of you.
<Not anything to do with me>
I totally understand why you would dislike fragging freshly imported corals.
They have been stressed in various ways by their importation and the changes that they have gone through and then they come in to be fragged. But my question for you is, isn't that the reason to frag corals to begin with?
<In part, yes>
Yes people frag their friends coral that is in great shape but more often they want a piece of the coral that is dying and want to try to save it. In our demonstrations, we take the dregs of the corals that have been shipped.
We ask for corals that are stressed and in poor condition to do our demonstrations with. We talk to the people and we tell them these corals have been severely stressed. We are trying to take corals that would for the most part be disposed of anyway from these distributors and put them to good use and in a lot of circumstances SAVE the coral or a part of the coral. I do think its a lovely idea to bring in corals from the local clubbers and we usually do have some of these. I recognize that when they do the demonstrations that you guys perhaps would prefer to use corals that look nicer but I know Anthony always mentions that he uses fragging to assist in saving the coral. In fact, I believe Anthony prefers damaged corals. I know that sometimes these corals look very bad and are very badly stressed but many corals go on to survive and thrive from these shows. I personally have a gorgonian that is from the very first show that frag did so I know for a fact that they do survive. I had planned to bring a frag of this coral and frag it at this show.
Additionally, our coral sponsors for the show are very generous people and have been kind enough to let us have corals for both IMAC and MACNA but asking for corals without a gap in time between our requests to me seems to be abusing the generosity of a group who is giving us something. It was mentioned Steven that you had space in your greenhouse to keep the corals should they have been donated to us early as you requested but I also worried that that could cause additional problems and suggestions of impropriety with the corals. For instance, what happens if they ship 25 corals and only 19 survive to make it to the show. What kind of documentation would be necessary to provide proof of what happened to the corals. In the past I would have said that only your word would suffice but after past circumstances I don't think that would suffice anymore.
<Certainly seems a "Catch 22">
Additionally you have the complications of what to do now with the frags that you all will be fragging. What will you do with them? Will the club give them out?? Will the club "store" them? That's where having the corals that are not in the best conditions come into play as well. The vendors cannot see them as competition to what they are selling because they are corals that are damaged and we are essentially trying to "safe" them.
<Good point>
I do want to point out that our philosophy has always been to save the reefs and that at any time if we thought that we were doing damage to the reefs we would stop fragging period but its our philosophy that by teaching these people how to frag and by letting them have hands on experience at the booth that we are giving them something that they can't get anywhere else. I was disappointed at IMAC that more people didn't get that experience but at the last MACNA we reached out to a tremendous amount of people and let them have hands on fragging experience. This is something they do not get from just watching a fragging demonstration and something that FRAG can give them. If you look on frag you will see a connection to pictures with a demonstration of one person who had never fragged before and when he left he became comfortable with it. Once again the corals that get fragged on the first day would be put in tanks with others. There isn't really any other way around this but we have done everything we can to prevent problems by using as many methods as possible to keep the tanks clean including doing multiple water changes, diatom filtration, and using ozone.?
I also want to mention the support that frag has always given to all of you.
I realize that while we may not have the most sponsors or the most hits of any of the sites there are always people on the site and looking at information on the site from searches on Google and other search engines.
Our presence is mainly at the shows and we need to keep going to the shows to keep alive as you all well know. I don't know what plan B is but it has to be hurtful to frag and the many people who have supported MACNA and IMAC and you gentleman over the years. I would really like you to reconsider this decision Steven. I do understand the reasons why you have made them but I hope you have come to know more why I personally objected to storing the corals before hand and why I think it is essential that frag exchange be at the show. Whether it is represented by me personally or not. As you know, I have other interests along with Frag.
Thanks
Mac
<Mac Lewis is part of FRAG as well as WWM. Bob Fenner>

Re: MACNA & Frag Exchange, EricB's go   8/15/07
Dear all:
Since this is my first foray into this ongoing discussion, I will be brief.
I have gotten to the point where I am generally against all commercial wild collection of corals for aquariums, period.
<Unrealistic... what will indigenous peoples do with their resource if this "higher and better use" cannot be made of/with it? Cement? Building material? Dynamite fishing?... think>
I am even against Mariculture at this point until standards are set to avoid the pest species now being introduced by Mariculture operations,
<Unrealistic as well... who is going to produce, enforce such standards? Who is going to pay for it?>
although I am hopeful an upcoming workshop may help address those issues.
And, I am against frag trading by clubs without quarantine and proper post fragmenting husbandry for the passing of pest species and the potential of non-native and invasive introductions by the many coastal dwelling aquarists of the world.
<...>
Ethically, I do like to save damaged corals, especially from other aquarists who are having tank problems, but I am less assured that the average aquarist is able to save a stressed or damaged coral. I am unsure of the survival of fragments we create since there is no post monitoring period, and we don't take our own frags home to see if it is the post fragmenting conditions or the aquarist who takes home the frags that results in any mortality. I know when I frag my own corals they don't die.
I know when I try to save a stressed wild coral, it might make it and it might not. I can even say that for healthy wild corals. But those sick and healthy wild corals are then replaced by more, and frankly it just sits wrong with me.
<Perhaps another interest... like human birth control?>
And, let's face reality here. The aquarium hobby isn't saving reefs in any way shape of form no matter how much talk there is of our concern. Concern and action seem to be Kapela <<? RMF>> and always have been.
<Mmm, I/we disagree... the long term effects of acquaintance, knowledge of the living world protect it more than any other activity... Is this/the "cost" worth it? I believe so>
I did not know the terms Steve and Anthony suggested for this MACNA, until now, but fully support them and think their suggestions are, as mentioned, long overdue and well thought out. I resent any implications that Steven would be involved with impropriety of gifted corals. We have more corals than we know what to do with - I could give away a tank full and never notice they were gone - and the novelty of having this coral or that coral - and I think I speak for all of us - has long ago ceased to be a temptation as it is for so many hobbyists. I dare say we have had or kept just about every species available and could get them easily, if not for free, if we desired. In terms of the support given by sponsors or vendors, I also really don't have any interest in their financial success of failure though always appreciate the generosity of others as we have so generously donated our time and effort for literally two decades now. I appreciated being able to help Frag with demonstrations and by their hospitality at events. In terms of personal gain to us, I have a few T-shirts and some conversation for a few hours a year, so it is not particularly important to me either way. My main concern is that the corals entrusted to us survive and all the rest is virtually immaterial. Steven, Anthony and MACNA XIX seem to have attempted to address this concern and I stand by their decision.
Eric Borneman
<Bob Fenner. It is my understanding that EricB has never worked in the ornamental aquatics industry>

Re: MACNA & Frag Exchange, MacL responds    8/15/07
Well since I apparently have opened a can of worms here. I can only speak to these things from MY personal experiences. Corals I have fragged, responses I have seen, people that we see at the shows. And once again let me point out this is NOT my website and I cannot speak for anyone from there besides myself. I personally value all that you all have done for Frag both for myself and for the website. I have had much success with fragging corals and sending them home and yes I have fragged corals straight out of the box both at the shows and at stores. I do see the value of having the corals settled but I also see where they would be disturbed by moving them to the shows as well.
<Mmm, the thought here is likely to promote better circumstances for the candidate... and business for the folks involved>
As for any impropriety I do NOT think that Steven would ever do anything wrong. But I know you wouldn't as well Eric and I personally shut several people up at IMAC that started to tell me crap,
My point being that there are people who do not know or respect you like I do.
At this point it doesn't matter as Anthony said its over and done. I am sorry if I have offended anyone, I just for once felt my opinion should be known. For the less than two cents its worth.
Mac
<Thank you for sharing. BobF>

Re: MACNA, Fragexch., advocating more gov't unrealistically...  8/15/07
Hi Bob:
<Howdy Eric>
Not arguing the realism of your post.
<Realism?>
My remarks are personal decisions and controlling behavior and things of which are in the realm of control.
<For yourself I take it>
I can't stop, nor have connections to stop, all major threats to coral reefs. I drive a car but wouldn't if there were viable options. I opt not to have a lawn and to eat organic and no meat. Will it solve global warming? No.
<But does help>
Unrealistic? Yes. But a journey begins with a single step. To me, everything makes a difference and arguing that "our contribution" won't make it right is why things are so f'ed up in the first place.
E
<Thanks for your further input. BobF>