Malachite green and formalin? 9/1/08
Sir,
<<Now BobF
chiming in to supplement Ian's effort>>
I have searched the net but
could not find much help with exact dose of formalin and malachite
green. I bring in regular fishes and they are often infected with white
spot. I plan to use malachite green and formalin. I bought
melachitegreen crystals of 90% strength and formaldehyde liquid 37-40%
strength.
I want to add a combination of above chemicals to treat
marine white spot. How much of each should I use to prepare the stock
solution?
<<Mmm, not much... I would not treat with any more than a
0.15 ppm (mg/l) solution in-tank... an immersion bath (dip) of more (up
to 2 ppm) could be employed... but the animals need to be watched
during... aeration supplied if used with formalin>>
I would prefer to
add these chemicals to the hospital tank and let the fishes stay in it
for the entire cycle of the parasite. I will do a regular water change
of about 25% and add the chemicals on every alternate days.
<<Mmm...
a dangerous path here>>
For this type of treatment what should the
exact dose of the above chemicals be?
<<Are you capable of performing
the mathematics of extended notation, for making molar solutions,
percentages? If not, I would NOT use the Malachite at all... Instead,
read on WWM re other means of treatment... Likely simply pH adjusted
freshwater baths (with the formalin if you wish):
http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm>>
there are not many off the
shelf products available in India so please help as you did last time,
regarding the lion.
<<Oh... if just this one animal read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/liondisfaq2.htm
and the linked files above.
Bob Fenner>>
I do appreciate your promptness in resolving my issue.
Thanks again.
With warm regards,
Babu Banik.
<Hello, I would
read more about treating on here
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/malachitegreen.htm. I have never dosed with
crystals. I have always used a premixed formula that included
instructions.
Treating with formalin and malachite green can be very
dangerous and toxic to your fish. I would recommend using a product such
as Cupramine. Good Luck and hope the links help, IanB>
Liquid Super Ick Cure... Malachite... staining with nary a clue
8/23/08
Hello to you guys,
I am writing to you as i am seeking
for a possible way to reverse a mistake i made with the application of
the product Liquid Super Ick Cure.
<http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/TechSheet.aspx?TechSheetID=31
Malachite Green>
You see, i am a newbie to reef tanks and had mine
since 6 months ago. Everything was well until i introduced a Longnose
Butterfly fish 5 days ago.
<... sans quarantine>
He was doing well
until yesterday when i noticed that he was hiding behind rocks and was
swimming sideways. I also noted the presence of white spots in its' fins
and some in its' beaklike mouth. It does not seem to have any appetite
as well as looking rather lethargic. I hurried to the nearest major
marine store and inquired about a possible remedy to this condition.
<? Condition?>
The sales person told me to buy the said product.
I
hurried home and applied the product to the system following the
directions of the bottle. One reminder got me worried as it states that
is not good to apply it to a reef aquarium as it may harm corals and
other sensitive invertebrates.
<Oh yes>
I Googled the product and
was immediately alarmed.
I called the pet store but they were not
much help.
I proceeded to apply a new carbon filter as well as
changing 25% of the water. Any other suggestion that may reverse my
mistake would be greatly
appreciated.
Thank you.
<...? Please
read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/malachitegreen.htm
and the linked
files above. Bob Fenner>
Malachite Green... not for Crypt 9/25/07
Hi
Crew,
<Kelly>
I can't find explicit instructions for the use of
Malachite Green.
<Mmm, should be posted on the bottle... varies per
stock concentration... You've read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/malachitegreen.htm
and the linked files
above? Evidently not.>
I have a Klein's Butterfly and a Foxface with
Ick, which I have removed from my main tank to a 10 gal QT tank. At the
advisement of my LFS I purchased Kordon Malachite Green
<... not
effective for Crypt by itself>
and dosed the QT today. My dilemma is
that I don't know what to do now. I can't find the treatment protocol.
When do I do a water change, how much water do I change, and how do I
dose the malachite with water changes?
<... Let's skip ahead and
have you read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptcures1.htm
and
the linked files above...>
Also, I have to assume my display tank has
ick, right? So, at the end of the treatment period when I reintroduce
them back into my main tank will they just become re-infested? I have a
snowflake eel, lunar wrasse, bicolor blenny, blue devil damsel, 2 neon
gobies and a flame hawkfish still in my 75 gal FOWLR tank. Can I just
use hyposalinity and high temp to run the parasite through its cycle?
(Please say it is just this easy - I fought a huge ammonia battle only a
month ago!) Thank you for your help. Kelly
<Have just skipped
down... get reading... and soon. Bob Fenner>
Nox-Ich
and live rock? 4/6/07
Hey dudes thanks for all the help
that you have provided. I used Nox-ich in my tank to cure ick but, I
goofed up and used it with the live rock in my tank.
<Now blue LR>
Is there anything that I could do to be able to use it in a different
tank with corals for just the foundation?
<Should be fine... the
Malachite Green stain will not "re-release" in the water to an
appreciable extent>
I was also wondering if I would be able to use
the tank that I treated ick in for a in-sump refugium?
<Sure>
Thanks for the help U DUDES ROCK!! GREAT HOBBY AND CHICKS DIG IT!!
<I wish. Bob Fenner>
Medication That Will Stain Silicon - 10/11/06
Thanks Chuck. Will
the malachite Green permanently discolor my decor or just the sealant in
the corners?
<Different brands of ich cures have different strengths
of malachite green. I have seen aquariums that have been stained with
Malachite Green so when you use this medication it is always possible it
will stain objects.>
I have plastic and fabric type fake plants in
the tank along with plastic rocks and caves. One last
question Chuck........I really enjoy my yellow lab's personality and it
seems a lot more active than other types of cichlids, which species is
most like the yellow lab as far as being active and personality
goes? I would like to fill my tank with other species of cichlids that
mimic the yellow lab. Thanks again
< Your Yellow Labidochromis swims
among rocks looking for little invertebrates to feed on. Other cichlids
to consider as take mates would be Melanochromis johanni, Ps. saulosi,
Cyno. afra, Cypt. moori, or almost any open water utaka type.-Chuck>
Malachite green question 5/25/06
Wet Web Media Staff,
<Ryan>
Your site is wonderful and I thank you very much for all of
the help you provide to everyone. I was just hoping you could answer a
quick question for me.
I was going to buy a used tank off of someone
in the area, and I found out that he used malachite green in it 2 times.
I don't want to buy this tank if I can't have live rock and coral in it,
so I was just hoping you could provide me with a little information on
this situation. Is this tank
unusable for live rock and coral since
it has been dosed with this in the past?
<If the tank is cleaned
good, you should not have any problems. The silicone used in the tank
(if glass) will probably be stained with the dye. This is almost
impossible to remove safely. James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks!
<You're
welcome.>
Ryan
Black ghost problem... poisoning with Malachite 4/28/06
Hi
<Hello>
I really hope you can help me.
About 2 weeks ago
my Clown loaches and blue rams started to show signs of Ich.
<No
fun>
After being given advise by my local fish store, I purchased
WS3 medication to cure it.
<... malachite green, acriflavine and
quinine sulphate (WS3®, King British)>
Only after reading your site
have I found out that Black Ghost Knife Fish are sensitive to
medications
<And the Clown Loaches...>
and I have started to
notice that my BGK is swimming lazy, has greyish white patches down the
side of him and his fins have become torn and have red patches. I don't
know if this is Ich, Slime disease or a fungus growth with fin rot.
Please could you help me..
Many thanks.
Steve.
<... with
what? Malachite Green should be dosed at most at half concentration with
the loaches, Knifefish... This, along with temperature increase should
effect a cure for ich. Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwich.htm
and the linked
files at top and on WWM re these fishes "Health FAQs". Bob Fenner>
Ick... Malachite Green 4/14/06
I know what I am
dealing with and am using an old cure but am looking for a product I
have not seen in 15 years or so. It is called Nox Ick. Best product I
ever bought by the time you use the bottle you lost it . Where can I
find it please help.
<Alas, Weco Corp. (makers of DeChlor,
Nox-Ich...) are no more. However, there are other brands of Malachite
Green (the active ingredient):
http://wetwebmedia.com/malachitegreen.htm
Read on.
Bob
Fenner>
Velvet! Jumping all the way in w/o knowing what you're
doing 03/07/06
I am currently reading over your site
looking for answers regarding the issue. I have a 150gal, it is now
FOWLR....It went through a rough move.
Now an outbreak of velvet.
Resulting in the loss of several fish. Still living is a white-faced
surgeonfish, and a clown.
I've been trying to capture the fish to
put into QT....damn rocks!
<Really best to systematically dismantle,
drain here>
I have lowered SPG it is now at 1.017, Should I lower it
more?
<... I would not>
I have raised the temp. to high 80's.
<This, these will not effect a cure here>
The clown has clouded
eyes, ragged fins and a velvety coating. Its breathing is rapid early in
the morning and at night, throughout the day
the coating appears to
subside. The tang has very rapid breathing throughout the day, but the
spots on it are less. In the mornings, it
appears to have dark spots
that are spotted all over then gradually fade away as the day
progresses. ?
<Yes>
I realize this to be a no no, but I have
treated the main display.
<With?>
Until I am able to capture the
fish, I don't know what else to do (other than try a little harder I
suppose). I have been using Nox-Ich....
<... Malachite Green... in
the presence of LR, calcareous substrate? Won't work... except to stain
all>
I guess I wasn't really aware of what was in that....is it
something that can create problems for things to later grow on the LR?
<... You're hopefully joking>
Hard lesson learned in this whole
situation (as always). Anyways, If I performed a freshwater dip... I put
water in a bucket
(sterile bucket), get ph and temp and spg (?) to
that of what they are currently in? (I was once told there is no such
thing as a stupid
question, but I think I may get
reprimanded/laughed at here...) What would be recommended to add to that
dip? Methylene blue (I don't
currently have this)? Or....could
either the Nox-Ich or MelaFix work (I realize that these are probably
the worse "meds" I could own now) ? Or
would just the simple
freshwater be of some relief to the fish with no medication being
involved until I can get what is recommended? I will be
giving baths
from here on out where needed. I haven't done one and the article re the
issue was a little scary.
Sorry for any repeated questions and
really, thank you for your help! I will continue about my search on the
site now.
Sincerely,
Codie
<... have just skipped down.
Please see WWM re Amyloodiniumiasis, Parasitic Tanks and Reef Tanks...
Bob Fenner>
Rid-Ich Affecting Catfish 11/7/05
The guy at the pet store told me it was ok to put Rid-Ich in the tank
with my Raphael catfish. He started staying up at the top of the tank
gasping for air. I took him out and put him in another tank. He is on
the bottom breathing very hard. Looking swollen. I checked the water and
others. Ok. I have a horrible feeling my baby is going to die before you
get this. I wanted to know if it was to late for him or is there
something I can buy to make him better.
Peetsi
<Rid-Ich is a very
good medication. Rid-Ich is an older form of a malachite green and
formalin combination that was found to be very toxic to scaleless fish
such as catfish and loaches. It is to be used at half the recommended
dosage and says so on the bottle. A new formulation came out a couple of
years ago called Rid-Ich+.
This is suppose to be a safer medication
than its earlier formula. The clerk may have confused between the two
different bottles, especially if both were on the shelf. They still look
almost identical. You did the right thing by removing him from the tank.
Place him in a net in a quiet corner of the tank with plenty of aeration
and hope for the best. There is no antidote for you fish and it will try
and purge the copper from its system over time.-Chuck>
Attacking Ich...The Not-So-Fun (But Successful) Way! 8/5/05
Hi,
<Hey there! Scott F. at the keyboard tonight!>
I have a 110 gal.
salt water tank with Anthias, oriental Sweetlips, clownfish, yellow
tang, and a coral beauty. I also have some inverts; Starfish, Shrimp,
Lobster, Crabs and Snails. I have recently had an outbreak of
Ick. Some of the fish have the white dots all over them, but you can
only see them when my "blue" power compact light is on, but when all the
power compacts are on, you can't see the dots. Also, none of the fish
are scratching themselves. This is Ich, isn't it????
<Sounds like
it may be...>
Anyway, I went to a popular fish only store in my area
and they gave me a bottle of Malachite Green, from Marine Enterprises
Intl. Inc. They, as well as the companies website, say that it is safe
to use this with inverts, but your website article on this product
states that its deadly to these.
<It is not wise to use this stuff
around inverts, IME.>
What should I do????
<I would remove the
affected fish and place them in a separate tank for treatment with an
effective medication, such as copper sulphate or a formalin-based
product. Let the display run "fallow", without fishes, for at least a
month...Lots written on this technique right here on the WWM site!>
I've read your articles on separating the fish into a quarantine tank
for a month and fresh water dipping, but I really don't want to do any
of that.
<Okay...>
That being said, what is the best solution to
this parasite without removing anything from the tank????
<In my
personal experience and opinion, I have yet to find a truly effective
way to treat this illness in a display tank containing fishes and
invertebrates. The risk of "collateral damage" is simply too great. I'm
not a big believer in the so-called "reef safe" "medications"...For lots
of reasons outlined here many times previously. It's not fun, but it's
well worth the effort to remove the fishes from the display tank for
treatment in a dedicated aquarium.>
Is this Malachite Green the best
solution???
<I would not use ANY medication in the display tank.
Period. It simply is not a good move, IMO.>
And again, Is it really
safe like the company says it is???
<I wouldn't think of using this
product (or any product) in a (mixed fish/invert) display tank...Just
not the best move you can make, as far as I am concerned.>
Thanks
for your help. Sincerely, Jeff.
<Glad to be of assistance, Jeff. I'm
afraid that my recommendation is to take the course of treatment that
you don't want to. I cannot recommend treating in the display tank. I
wouldn't do it with my fishes, so I wouldn't tell you to do it! Best of
luck to you! Regards, Scott F.>
Stained tank, Malachite Green
Hi:
<Hello there>
I would really appreciate any help you can
give me on this subject. I have
ruined my new fish tank by treating
a fish for ich with Rid-Ich+. The
silicone seals have stained blue.
<Yes... Malachite Green...>
I know that the label on the bottle
warned of this, but I was trying to save my fish and wasn't too worried
about that at the time. Well, now the fish is better and I am left with
a
stained tank. Is there anything I can do about this?
Thanks
so much!
Laurie van Raalte
<Unfortunately, no. The stain is
permanent. Bob Fenner>
Paraguard same as Formalin?
Hello Everyone, just have a quick question regarding Paraguard by
Seachem. I bought this product under the assumption that it was a
Formalin product, however now I find that it is Malachite Green and
Gluteraldehyde.
<Yes>
Currently I am trying to cure a clownfish of
Ick and am a little hesitant to use copper. Anyways, wouldn't
Gluteraldehyde have the same mechanism of crosslinking protein as
Formalin would?
<To some extent, yes>
So is Paraguard an
alternative to Formalin, or should I possibly look for another
medication? Also can you possibly list a few Formalin based products
(For whatever reason I cant seem to find any). Thanks a lot for you help
and time, you guys rock -Mark
<Mmm, up to you... there are a few
approaches to "treating" for Cryptocaryon infestations... which you can
review on WWM... I would not expose your fish or yourself to
formalin/formaldehyde or Gluteraldehyde for any extended period of
time... better to use as an extended dip or bath... You do know the life
cycle of this parasite? The need to isolate hosts? All hosts? Copper is
hard on amphiprionines... but most folks don't have the patience,
diligence to use other compounds, keep changing water... Bob Fenner>
Malachite green/quinine and ich
G'day guys,
<Good morning
Luke, MacL here with you today.>
I have found your site most
informative.
<Many thanks for the nice words.>
I have a 530
litre, 5 foot by 2 foot, by 2 foot Tropical reef tank set up. In my tank
I have 2 Pajama cardinal fish, 3 Green Chromis, 1 regal tang, 1 mimic
tang, 1 mandarin fish, 1 scooter ( Neosynchiropus ocellatus ). I also
have 1 pink Goniopora - bowling ball size, 1 green Goniopora - apple
size, 2 species of Discosoma, 1 group of Zoanthus and 2 Anemones. I have
a wall of live rock along the back of my set up, Serpulorbis inopertus
and Haliotis varia are quite common through this wall.
18 months ago
I successfully treated an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans on my regal
tang with a 4 day treatment of Quinine hydrochloride and malachite
green. All of the above species in my tank survived, though the
Gonioporas
went into themselves for 8 days. Everything has been fine
until now.
Recently I added 1 clown wrasse, 1 18 inch snowflake eel
and 1 Pentaceraster tuberculatus. I now have another out break of
Cryptocaryon irritans. The regal tang has a good smearing of white spots
and most of the other fish have 1 or 2 spots on them. No fish are
showing physical distress YET.
I believe the white spot came into my
system on the clown wrasse though at the time of purchase no physical
signs were noticeable. For future use I will be setting up a hospitable
/ Quarantine tank.
I know I will have to remove the Pentaceraster
tuberculatus before using the same treatment as before, Quinine
hydrochloride and malachite green, but I do not know if I should remove
my snowflake eel?
<Definitely take him out of the tank while the
treatment is going on.>
Please your opinions would be greatly
appreciated.
<Good luck, MacL>
African Red-Knob
Starfish
Hi,
I have just treated my tank for ich with Rid-Ich+
by Kordon. In the process the corners of my tank where the silicone
seals were have turned blue. I have tried scrubbing clean but it won't
come out. Any ideas on removing the stains?
<Can't be removed
practically...>
If not it's a pleasant coloration to the tank.
<Good>
My main question is that I am getting a African Red-Knob
Starfish and am worried that on its travels around the tank it might
soak up the Rid-Ich through the silicon and be harmed.
<Mmm, nope.
Once absorbed... transformed... gone. You might want to run a bit of
activated carbon, Polyfilter to assure yourself>
What is your insight
on this? The starfish is an expensive investment and I don't want to
have it die due to the Rid-Ich in the silicone or anything left over in
the dirt. Also, my tank doesn't get much algae, what would I need to
feed the starfish, or do I need to? Thank you.
<Mmm, a few important
things to impart to you... One, I would not treat your livestock in your
main/display tank (for reasons that are likely obvious to you now), and
this star is not a good choice for most all types of marine systems...
http://www.google.com/custom?q=African+Red-Knob+Starfish&sitesearch=wetwebmedia.com
Bob Fenner>
Re: Rid-Ich
Just a quick follow-up. Do you think
Rid-Ich is still present in the sand?
<No... please read here re
Malachite Green:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/malachitegreen.htm and the Related FAQs
linked above>
Also you say """One, I would not treat your livestock
in your main/display tank (for reasons that are likely obvious to you
now)""" What reason's are those, just the coloration?
<...... no my
friend... please read on WWM re... the loss of nitrification, kill-off
of other beneficial life...>
The coloration I can deal with, its
actually quite unique, but could anything else have been harmed or
soaked up the Rid-Ich and might harm future fish? I have a Bio-wheel
type filter and am worried that the bacteria culture on it may have been
harmed even though the Rid-Ich label says it won't.
<Incorrect>
What is your take? Or am I just being a worrier?
<Good to be a
worrier>
I have a damsel and a clown in there and they are doing
excellent as of now, no more signs of ich and things are looking good. I
am going to do a partial water change today and then let the tank cycle
for about a week before I decide on the starfish. I read the link you
sent me, thank you. I do not have any live coral in my tank or anything
that the starfish could harm, just a damsel and a clown who are living
happily together.
<Ah, good>
I was thinking about getting a
chocolate-chip star, ~$5 to test things out before jumping in and
getting the ~$40 red-knob (which would really put a nice touch to my
tank-- red starfish, orange/white clowns, black/white damsel and aqua
blue corners thanks to Rid-Ich, haha) After reading a lot the chocolate
and the red-knobbed are very similar, and I would much rather lose the
Chocolate than the red-knob. Your opinion on my proposed venture would
be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
<All of what little I know is
posted. Bob Fenner>
Nitrification, Malachite Green...
Sorry
to keep e-mailing, but I just needed a clarification on the following..
Me: I have a Bio-wheel type filter and am worried that the bacteria
culture on it may have been harmed even though the Rid-Ich label says it
won't.
You: <Incorrect>
Are you saying that the label is
incorrect and my bacteria culture has been harmed? Or That I am
incorrect in thinking that it has been harmed? Thanks.
http://www.fritzpet.com/article_preferencesofnit.html
<... read
my friend. Bob Fenner>
Rid-Ich, ridding Malachite
After
reading your last message I feel like I made a horrible mistake using
the Rid-Ich+. I read the article on Malachite Green and it has scared
me. I feel like my aquarium has been compromised by the situation. Any
words of wisdom would be great. Thank you.
<... carbon,
Polyfilter... Bob Fenner>
- Malachite Green -
Hello,
Can
malachite green be used in my main saltwater tank with fish and inverts
to control ich?
<It "can" but it shouldn't be used in your main
display.>
55g with live rock, bubble-tip anemone, small mushrooms,
royal Gramma, two percula clowns, yellow watchman goby, yellow tang.
<Oh for certain... your invertebrates will perish if you use this in
your main tank. Would suggest you put together a quarantine system and
isolate/treat your fish there.>
My tang has started scratching and
twitching but has no white spots on him, however my Gramma appears to
have the white spots, I proceeded to give them both a freshwater bath
today for a period of five minutes with Methylene blue and It seemed to
really help.
<Yes, although once you see spots on the fish, that
means you have the parasite in your tank... re-introducing the fish to
the aquarium will expose them to the parasites - again.>
I have a 20
gallon qt tank that the fish were initially QT'ed in for 4 weeks prior
to putting in the display 2 weeks ago. <Suggest you put them back in
quarantine - all of your fish, let your tank go fallow for about six
weeks. Will allow you to use whatever means necessary to treat the fish
without affecting your invertebrates.>
Everyone is eating well and
appear healthy otherwise. All help is appreciated. Sorry If my answer is
in your forums, So far I haven't found It.
<Is for certain in our
FAQs.>
Thank you for all that you do!!
<Cheers, J -- >
-
Greenex Strikes Again -
Hello Crew, I have another question my
tank had caught ich and the guy at my LFS told me to use Greenex so I
did. Now all the LFS are telling me to throw away all my sand and
recycle my tank. The Greenex worked alright, done a great job of killing
ich, but it took my fishes, corals, and invertebrates too. <Doesn't
sound like a good cure to me... I would fire the fish store that gave
you this advice [to use the Greenex on your tank].> Sigh... of all means
I don't want to have to recycle my tank, so I wanted to make sure about
what you all think before I take action. <You must re-cycle the tank at
this point, but you probably don't need to throw out your sand... run
some activated carbon for about a week or two and you should be good to
go.>
Thanks, Chris
<Cheers, J -- >
Malachite
Green For Ich (4/29/04)
Hi again ! <Steve Allen with you
tonight.>
Sorry if I'm bombarding you with lots of questions, but
your crew and this site is the only one I trust for marine related
questions. <Thanks for the vote of confidence.>
Would like to ask if
Malachite Green is really effective against Ich, and if it is at what
stage does it kill the ich (is it in the free-swimming stage,
reproduction stage at the substrate, or when attached to the host)? <I
would not rely on this medication alone. Also, it can be dangerous if
not used very carefully. Read here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/skip/sp/feature/index.htm and
search the term on WWM for details. The
reefkeeping.com reference is part 2 of an excellent 5-part series on
ich.>
I have 2 false Percs, and 1 black saddleback in my QT. The
saddleback is new and replaced my Sebae which perished in the Ich war.
The Percs are better, their on the 2nd week going to 3rd, no trace of
Ich, but I may be wrong. I've treated them with 1 week malachite green
at 1.017 sg <Hyposalinity only works at much lower SG (1.010 range)>,
and daily siphoning, and it seemed to work (no obvious grains on the
fish, same with the saddleback), and they're now at the recovering and
RnR stage. After a week of no symptoms I placed a small clay flowerpot
<I prefer PVC fitting--more inert.> and I saw the 3 of them sleeping
inside, which is good, and weird, to avoid them sleeping at the QT
bottom and get reinfected. <Any ich on the bottom will find its way onto
the fish even if they don't sleep at the bottom.> I'm waiting for the 6
weeks fallow period for the main tank, which is why I'm looking at
stocking of corals.
I'm afraid of putting the fish in the main tank
after 6 weeks. Though there are no longer obvious symptoms, I wouldn't
want to start all over again. <A couple of extra weeks may help. Do read
all 5 of Steven Pro's excellent articles.> Thanks for all you help. And
patience! Romel <Your systematic and patient approach will yield success
in the end.>
Treating Marine Parasites (Greenex, Rally and
Kick Ich... three strikes, you're out!)
<<JasonC here, Bob is off
diving>>
Mr. Fenner, sorry to bother you again, but.... The symptoms
on my fish were getting worse (ich and marine velvet) so we got a
skimmer, but then started using Rally and Kick Ich by Ruby Reef to try
to save fish and had to turn skimmer off. I ended up losing my Gold rim
tang, Heniochus, and true Percula. Obviously these meds didn't work. I
know you said to get Alkalinity right and keep water quality excellent,
lower salinity slowly) and raise temp. I did these as well, Water is
great, salinity is at 1.019 normally it is at 1.022 0r around there.
Temp is around 80-82. We ran activated carbon through tank to pull meds
out and try something a little "harder". We began using Greenex
yesterday. My clown died but he wasn't going to make it regardless. Now
none of my fish are eating. They are all hiding. I am now running
carbon, protein skimmer and UV sterilizer to pull meds out as I believe
Greenex is quite toxic. <<UV won't take any medications out of the
water>> What else can I should I do. <<probably not much, reflect on
what has transpired. Successful Marine tank keeping requires as much
work before we put fish in the tank as after. >> We are kind of thinking
to try to let the fish fight it off on their own. The shrimps are
cleaning them and salinity is lowered. Please help we are running out of
options. Remember we can't use hosp tank and we have inverts. <<I don't
recall the details - this is an important piece of gear, perhaps more
important than a UV filter>> If this were your tank given what we can
and cannot do, what would you do at this time? <<wait it out, try to
make arrangements for a quarantine system for future residents>> We have
two hippo tangs and one true Percula left, two cleaner shrimps both
working hard) I thought of neon gobies, but am afraid of getting any new
fish.. HELP!!!!!!
<<well, the neon gobies are pretty hardy and may be
a good place for you to get started again, however... you should really
consider carefully how you might squeeze in a quarantine system. This
one item could have saved you much of this heart-ache. Certainly a good
idea to just let things run their course and see how the Greenex works
out. You are quite correct about the toxicity of Greenex, and it
probably should have been avoided. In any case, keep running the carbon,
try to encourage your fish to feed but don't over-do it. Cheers, J -- >>
Greenex...reef-safe? NOT!
One more quick question. . . what is
about Greenex that makes it so harmful?
<The active ingredients are
Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride (a fairly nasty chemical).>
Why do they say on the bottle that it is "reef safe" if it has done so
much harm?
<It claims to be "invertebrate safe", which is a pretty
big difference. Many larger inverts can tolerate the stuff, but much of
the smaller life in reef tanks and many corals will be harmed.>
Is
there ever a situation where you would recommend using this stuff?
<The best situation for the use of any medication is in your bare bottom
hospital tank. -Steven Pro>
<and adding that the malachite wreaks
havoc with filter feeders and many octocorals>
Re: Formalin 3
and Methylene blue
Dear Bob,
thanks a lot for your answer. One
more question:
You mention "1-3 mg Methylene blue (one to three ml.s
of stock solution) per
gallon treated for prolonged immersion). ".
What if I use the Methylene blue for freshwater dips of about 4 minutes?
Should I use the 3mg per gallon or even more?
<Yes, quite safe>
I
do not know George Reclos, but I will try to find a way to contact him.
Do
you know his e-mail?
<Likely you can contact him through his
website: http://www.rddiagnostics.com/auriga.htm>
I have read that
you have published a new book. Can you tell me its title
and if when
it will be available to get it from Amazon.co.uk, where I have
bought
also "The conscientious...." ?
<Apparently not sold by the UK part of
the company. But is by the parent:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-1623087-3559848>
THANKS AGAIN!
Thanassis
<You're welcome my friend. Bob Fenner>
Re: Formalin 3 and Methylene blue
Dear Anthony,
<Anthony is
off to hobby and business conferences for the weekend>
my retailer
has found somebody who told him that he could provide him with
Methylene Blue. He did not mean the packaged form, i.e. small bottles
produced by the aquatic medicine industry, but he said he can create the
right mix. Could you tell me how the solution is made (for example we
know
that Formalin 3 is made from 37% formaldehyde). I just want to
be sure that
he does not make the wrong mix (!...).
<Tried to find
John Farrell Kuhn's "Index Medicos" for fish med's with no luck. There
are formulations listed in Edward Noga (Fish Disease, Diagnosis and
Treatment, and Nelson Herwig's "Fish Diseases"...). "1.4 g to 380 ml of
water (= 3.7 mg/ml)..." adding 1-3 mg Methylene blue (one to three ml.s
of stock solution) per gallon treated for prolonged immersion). Do have
your pharmacist (Do you know the chemist/aquarist George Reclos
(Athens)?) contact me if there are further questions. Bob Fenner>
Thanks, Thanassis
Greenex... wipeout... again
WWM Team,
I was reading through your Daily Q&A and read a post where a user had
his tanked wiped out the day after he added Greenex and wanted to let
you guys know that this exact thing happened to me about 6 months ago. I
had a couple of fish sick with ICK and cloudy eye my pet shop
recommended Greenex since I had some invertebrates, well after dosing my
180 gallon tank with 180 drops of Greenex the following day EVERYTHING
was dead. I don't know what they put in that stuff but it had wiped out
my tank just like it wiped out his, needless to say I've learned my
lesson but paid a hefty price tag for it.
Greenex
I have
a 50 gallon show tank with a Kole tang, Spanish wrasse, a clown, a
multicolor sea urchin, 2 damsels, 2 fire gobies, and a flame angle. My
clown got ick a few days after I got him.
<That is why we always
recommend any and all additions get a four week quarantine period.>
My friend that owns the pet store I bought it from recommended Greenex.
I had had problems with my fish dying after application before but was
convinced that it was my tank because it was still new (about 3 months
old).
<It could also have been the disease itself that killed the
fish, not the treatment.>
My friend convinced me of it, but I took
his advice because it worked on his fish. I made sure this time to check
my water before application, every thing was perfect. I applied it as
recommended, 1 drop per gallon. The next day the wrasse, tang, urchin,
clown, angel, and one goby was dead along with one of my sand sifting
stars.
<Wow!>
Is it just me or is this stuff killing my fish?
<I have had bad experience with this product on invertebrates, so I
would believe it is possible that your urchin and starfish was effected,
but too many other variables to say for certain the medication killed
the fish. The speed of the deaths does lend credence to your suspicions,
but it is also possible the clownfish was infected with Amyloodinium and
Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium is harder to see and may have spread
unnoticed. A quarantine/hospital tank is a must. Please see
www.WetWebMedia.com regarding set up and proper use.>
I mean none of
these fish were sick. I have had most of them for almost 6 months and no
problems, no signs of being sick and all of a sudden mass die off! I
checked my tank again every thing was fine. It seems every time I add
this stuff to my tank all my sensitive fish (expensive fish) die!
<See, I would see the problem as every time you add a unquarantined
fish, it becomes sick in your tank, infects everyone, you then treat the
whole tank, and you experience deaths.>
Is it just me or can it be
the Greenex?
<It is possible, but you have other forces at work here.
-Steven Pro>
Malachite green. (Say what?)
Hello Bob,
We have ich in our tank. I think we now have it under control, or
getting it there. We have lowered the salinity and are using the UV
sterilizer. I also got some malachite green to put in the tank. The
bottle says how much to put in but it doesn't mention how often or how
long you should use it. Can you give me some idea so we can fully
control the ich. Thanks, Belinda
<For... a marine, brackish system?
What sorts of livestock? What treatment history? Please take a read
through what's posted on our root web: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ using
the Google search tool at the bottom of the homepage with the terms
"ich", "marine parasites", "malachite green".
Bob Fenner>
Quick Cure Medication 6/7/03
Hi I was wondering if I could use A
parasite killer called Quick Cure on my yellow tang it says the
ingredients are Formalin and Malachite green? thanks JM
<you
certainly can... and the combination of ingredients in this product are
one of the very best treatments for external parasites on fishes.
However, it cannot/should not like most medications ever be dosed in the
main tank (efficacy and contamination of/by the sand/gravel/rocks).
Please be sure to only dose and treat animals in a proper bare-bottomed
hospital tank. Kind regards, Anthony>
Rid-Ich Overdose?
Follow-up (4/2/04)
Steve, <Hi again.>
Thanks a lot. Here are
some answers to your questions...
a) The fish were in there for 3
days before the ich epidemic.
<They may well have brought this ich
in with them, just not visible yet.>
b) The QT was empty for a month+
before the fish were introduced.
<I highly doubt any ich was left
viable in there.>
c) Yes I had 10 lbs of live rock in the QT for the
angel to feed on and tried to salvage it after the mess-up and moved it
back to the display.
<I would advise against LR in QT. Most angels
will eat enough frozen, flake, or pellet food to sustain themselves
during that period.>
d) QT also had a blue legged hermit crab that
wasn't affected.
f) The recommended dosing of Rid Ick is one teaspoon
per 10 gallons. And within parentheses it said 5ml. That's how I ended
up with 9ml. I did a 50% water change an hour before the dosing.
<Well, then you did not exceed the recommended dose. Hard to day why
they died. As previously mentioned, I'd suggest more fallow time and
patience in re-stocking. Consider adding only one fish at a time to the
QT. I know it will take a lot longer, but it decreases the risks of
problems.> Thank You. <You're welcome, and good luck.>
Question Re QuickCure
In today's Q&A, you wrote that QuickCure
was "toxic," and
you suggested that it's not very effective. I
don't
quite understand why it's toxic. If I remember
correctly,
it contains formaldehyde and malachite green.
Aren't these both
rather common ingredients in ich
remedies? ((The reason that I ask
is that I recently
had good success with the product, and I don't
want to
use it again if it's as toxic as you say)).
Thanks.....
>>
Both malachite and formaldehyde (a general biocide, cross-linking
peptides...), apart and together are toxic... But, yes, valuable
treatments for external parasites of fishes... BUT, if you re-read the
entire post, the malady being treated for is NOT susceptible to
either/both these compounds... therefore, the person administering them
is wasting their time, "just" poisoning their fishes unnecessarily with
a "medication" that is not efficacious IN THIS CASE.
Bob Fenner
Question Re QuickCure
Bob:
Thanks for your clarification. I
don't mean to question
your expertise -- just wanted to know why I
should avoid
using QuickCure in the future. Sounds as though I
should
stick with good ol' copper.... jwl
>>
No problemo with
questioning, challenging, outright correcting my "expertise"... believe
me. And do agree with you about sticking with Cu++... except for some
problems (like Uronema, Glugea...) that formaldehyde/malachite really
comes in handy for.
Bob Fenner
I dosed it with Greenex
Thanks a lot.....btw, my tank came down with ich! I dosed it with
Greenex,
and all the fish died the next day.
<Argghhh, I hate this
product... not uncommon result>
My tank got milky white and I did a
50%
water change. The cloudiness continued for several day and is now
dying
down. I know I shouldn't have but I decided to add another
clarkii for the
anemone, so far so good. It's been 5 days and the
clarkii seems OK. He took
to the anemone in about 1hour! He now
sleeps inside it and it closes around
him like covers (really kewl).
BTW all my corals lived through the
medication just fish casualties.
Thanks for the tip on the sponge for bubbles
I know I need to be
skimming, but I couldn't stand all the bubbles.
<Maybe relocate it
to a sump?>
I have a lot of brown algae on the back glass would it
hurt to leave it growing or
should I scrape it?
<If it bugs you,
scrape away... should turn green with time, improving conditions>
Hey
thanks again for caring so much about the hobby by
taking your time
with all these questions.
Much thanks,
Joe >>
<Be chatting. Bob
Fenner>
Greenex and UV?
Hi Bob-
I am currently
treating my 12 gallon marine tank (fish/live rock/few inverts) with the
product 'Greenex' by Aquatronics, for ich which developed on a new fish.
This product had
failed me once in the past, but I caught the ich
within hours of first appearance this
time and decided to give it
another shot. Surprisingly, the ich was off the new coral
beauty the
very next day...and I am continuing treatment.
my question:
Is it
safe to use my UV filter while using the 'Greenex' product?
<Yes...
that is, the UV does not affect the type of Malachite Green and Quinine
mix which is Greenex...>
I turned it off
before treating in fear
of a poor reaction, but would like to use it if possible.
Unfortunately, the box mentions nothing regarding the issue and I have
been unable to
acquire any company contact info for Aquatronics.
Your help is appreciated.
Garin
<The usual warning here re this
product, apparent "disappearance" of ich... the former is rather toxic,
has little safety/efficacy margin... the latter does just "cycle off"
initially until developing multi-generational stages in a system...
Please read through the FAQs on "Marine Ich", and the MANY associated
FAQs and article files to "Marine Parasitic Disease" on our site:
www.WetWebMedia.com... and be prepared to enforce other treatment... at
least the environmental manipulation, vitamin prep. and cleaner ideas
gone over on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Re: Greenex and UV?
Thanks
Bob-
I have read through nearly all your FAQ's regarding Ich and the
sort...very helpful!
I will begin the environmental manipulation,
since I lost my electric scallop to the
Greenex anyways. Hopefully
the Emerald and Scarlet crabs will pull through the changes.
<Me
too... and please do write, express your concerns re "labeling" to the
fine folks at the manufacturer (Aquatronics)...>
I will also try a
neon goby as a cleaner, but fear the trigger will have him for lunch.
<Surprisingly, they don't eat them at once... recognizing Gobiosoma as
allies...?>
Regarding nutrition...currently I have a 3 fish: a
Picasso trigger and a valentini
Toby/puffer (each about an inch
long), and my new coral beauty angel. What food/brand
would you
recommend for the best nutrition (whether it be frozen, flake, or a
combination)...whatever would be best?
<Please see the
"Foods/Feeding/Nutrition" section on the Marine Index on our site:
www.WetWebMedia.com>
The angel doesn't seem too interested in the
'brine shrimp plus' flake or the frozen blood worms the others love. I
thought I might
try growing some Caulerpa algae in the tank for him,
since he ate all my hair algae.
<Add more live rock...>
I will
beat this ICH!!
Thanks again, Garin
<Good attitude. Bob Fenner>
Greenex use
The guy at the fish store says that he uses Greenex
to treat ick in a
system with live rock and sand...I thought I
remembered your website
said that Greenex wasn't good.. when I got
home I checked and it said
that it killed some fish...the bottle
states that it is safe for all
fish, invert... and biological
systems..
What is the deal??
Cheryl
<Unless the formula has
changed, Greenex is not non-toxic... too dangerous, responsible for many
losses... Post this msg. to the listservs for others opinions,
experiences. Bob Fenner>
Question about a disease
My
cowfish is swimming in circles and around its own center horizontally.
It happened after I treated it with "Greenex" (Malachite Green and
Quinine
Hydrochloride) anti-protozoan agent against a marine ick for
five days every
other day. On the box of the medication, it says that
it prevents exactly
the same conditions as the fish acquired
afterwards: scratching and darting.
The fish is so disoriented that
it cannot eat pieces of octopus I feed it.
What should I do now?
<Change water, run activated carbon in your filter flow path, lower
specific gravity, toss this toxic "medication" in the trash, use the
search feature (Google) on the wetwebmedia.com site and seek the
commiseration of other aquarists on the chatforum:
http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/
Otherwise, be patient and hopeful. Bob
Fenner>
Another Greenex Burial
Hi bob,
I have a 38
gallon Berlin system reef tank. I recently used Greenex, malachite green
and quinine HCl, to treat a tang that had white spots. The first two
days of the treatment were fine, I kept the filters running without the
carbon, turned off the protein skimmer, and continued use of Kalkwasser
solution, and reef solution. Then on the final day of treatment, I
decided to take out the filter block from one of my filters because I
had notice that it had been dyed blue, and I forgot to shake the bottle
of Greenex before adding it to the tank. After about two hours one of my
Foxface started heavy gilling at the bottom of the tank, 10 minutes
later it had gone from yellow to flush white started swimming upside
down, did a vertical loop and flopped dead on the live rock. My second
Foxface also succumbed despite an emergency water change, putting carbon
back in the filter, and turning on the protein skimmer. My tang and
clownfish were noticeably effected for 3 or 4 days but have now come
back to normal, and my blenny never seemed bothered. Was all this a
result of not shaking the bloody bottle of Greenex? Thanks for help
<More of just using this "medication"... the filter was removing a
modicum of the malachite and formalin (the ingredients) lessening their
toxifiying your fish... removing the filtrant hastened the effect. Bob
Fenner, who is glad to read of your other fishes revival>
sincerely
Ben
