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FAQs on Homeopathic Remedies..., Pepper Sauce, Teas, Poultices, Herbs... Use... or Scams and Shams

Related Articles: Homeopathic Fish Remedies, Medications, Use of Biological Cleaners, Aquatic Surgery, The Three Sets of Factors That Determine Livestock Health/Disease

Related FAQs: Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelminthics/Vermifuges/Dewormers, Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce, other shams...), Malachite Green, Mercury Compounds/Topicals, Methylene Blue, Metronidazole, Quinine Compounds, Sulfas, Treating Disease, Treatment Tanks, Medications/Treatments II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease 1, Parasitic Disease 2, Parasitic Disease 3, Parasitic Disease 4, Parasitic Disease 5, Parasitic Disease 6, Parasitic Disease 7, Garlic UseAntibiotic Use Marine Disease 1, Puffer Disease

If it quacks like a duck... Vitals, Rally, RXP, Stop Parasites,  KickIch, Oodinex, Probiotic Marine Formula... this and that "Fixes"... that aren't: leaf extracts, herbs, potions, pepper sauce oh my!

Help! 2 New sick mandarins      9/20/15
Sorry about the file size! I linked to YouTube instead..full screen will make it easier to see..
Dear WWM crew,
First of all, thank you for building such an incredible site with such a wealth of reliable information! I would be lost without you! I believe the new pair of mandarin dragonets I just got in 2 days ago (in QT) are infected with Costia (Ichthyobodo) and I can't seem to get rid of it!
<What have you tried thus far?>
I looked at the shipping bag water under a microscope and found lots of  them.
I attached a video I took of them if you don't mind confirming that this is in fact Ichthyobodo.
<From the shape, movement; likely so: Here's a better vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGX8oR9NqFs>
Unfortunately, I did not dip the mandarins before putting them in QT- I was nervous about the high ammonia levels of the shipping water (0.50 ppm)
<At times MUCH higher>
and wanted to transfer them quickly.
<For browsers, see my Acclimation protocols on WWM. Once ammonia is diluted out of shipping water and fish/es, not a big deal to dip if they're otherwise in health>
After I discovered the parasites a couple hours later, I took them out of QT to give them both a dilute formalin/Methylene blue dip for 30 minutes and they both seemed like happy fish the whole time. The next day I fed them baby brine shrimp and they both ate. I repeated the dip, but took them out after 20 minutes because they appeared stressed like they were looking for a way out of the dip container.
<Typical behavior; had it been freshwater, formalin containing or seawater>
Today I fed them baby brine again and decided to leave them alone, however now the female looks extra slimy and is breathing heavy.
<Mandarins are naturally very slimy>
I took a look at the tank water under the microscope and the parasites are in the tank too. I don't think another dip would help at this point. Should I treat the whole tank now??
<Yes I would>
What course of action do you think I should take???
<A quinine compound... see WWM Re. Bob Fenner>
parameters look fine- 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, pH 8.2, temp 78F. I greatly appreciate your help!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKa1gQU5mkE
-Lindsey
Re: Help! 2 New sick mandarins, Ichthyobodo and Tea Tree Oil    10/7/15

Hi Bob!
<Lindsey>
Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I just wanted to give you an update, and perhaps offer a theory? I was able to order Crypto-pro (Chloroquine phosphate) which came in two days later. Unfortunately, one of the mandarins didn't make it that long. I began treatment on the surviving mandarin as soon as the medication came in with a single dose at 15mg/l, although by that time his breathing was already labored. He lived for 4 more days, and a post-mortem skin scrape showed he was heavily infected with Ichthyobodo.
<Ahhh>
So since at that point I had the medication on hand, I figured I'd try again and ordered 2 more mandarins, figuring I could cure any infection if I treated it early. When they arrived I found the parasite in the bag water, again, this time both were breathing heavy from day 1. I immediately dosed CP at 15mg/l, but one of the mandarins died just 2 days later, the other was excessively slimy, breathing heavy, and did not appear to be improving. So I put some carbon in the filter and did a 25% water change to remove the medication. Then as I was combing the internet for ideas on what to do, I read that mandarins are sensitive to medications (like copper) and can cause them to produce so much slime that their gills become congested and they suffocate. I also know that tea tree oil is used on people to dry out wounds like cuts/scrapes/blisters/acne (take a good whiff and it'll clear your sinuses too!), is found in Melafix and is considered safe to use on most fish. Now, I know how you feel "natural" treatments like this are pretty much useless, and I completely agree with you, but I may have actually found a use for it!!! I thought if I could dry up some of the mucus to decongest her gills and help her breathe, then maybe her immune system will be able to fight off the parasite?? So I grabbed some 100% tea tree oil from the pharmacy and put 2 drops in the tank (10 gal) while she was sleeping. By morning she had shed some of the mucus and was able to breathe normal again! She still wasn't eating so I did this for 4 more days, and now she is very active, healthy, and eating like a pig! I finally have a happy mandarin! I'm sure the tea tree oil didn't directly kill the parasite or anything, but maybe it at least helped
her breathe? What do you think??
<Got me.... as all anecdotal accounts go; it's impossible to sort out cause/effect w/ one trial and multiple factors>
I'd love to know your thoughts on this
idea!
Thank you for all your help!
-Lindsey
<Thank you for your report. Bob Fenner>

Ich issue... Crypt, Acanthurids, using WWM       2/10/15
Sent from my iPad. Hi, my name is Shelley and I have questions about ich.
Last month I purchased some new fish that have been in quarantine. My new clown was starting to show signs of ich so I started using Herbtana
<Mmm; not a fan... this "herbal" remedy is just not reliable... operates only within a narrow range of water parameters, conditions... Has just been proven itself as a cure>

in the qt. well, I think I cross contaminated with my dt because my Atlantic blue tang is showing signs. His eyes are cloudy and his breathing is rapid. I wasn't thinking and I was using the same cleaning tools for water changes.
<D'oh! Parasites may be easily transmitted about by anything wet>
My problem is I don't have another qt and my 2 tangs are large, about 4-5 inches. So, would I be able to buy a tote from Wal-mart, remove lr and inverts and start hypo salinity in the dt. I cannot remove all the sand because I have to much. What will happen to the sand and at what rate do I lower salinity to and how long do I leave it at that rate.
<Is this a question? I'd be reading on WWM re Tangs, Crypt, Cures that work... do you need help using the search tool, indices? Bob Fenner>
Any suggestions would be helpful. I have had this tank running for 3 years and have 2 large tangs that I don't want to loose. Thank you.
Shelley
Re: Ich issue
       2/10/15
Sent from my iPad. I am sorry I bothered you about this problem. I just wanted to know if hypo would kill my sand bed.
<... you've confused what WWM is... you can just look this up.>

I thought it might be less stressful to remove the live rock and inverts than to cram 10 fish into a smaller tank. I know my mistake was stupid, and I am sick about it. I was just looking for some help or suggestions. I won't bother you again. Sorry.
<Not, never a bother; but do put yourself in our "place": We have no idea what you already "know"... and can't spend the time re-writing/keying "complete answers" to vague, broad issues... HENCE the accumulation of input (FAQs) and survey articles covering common topics... and their constant addition, revision. LEARN TO/USE the search tool and indices on WWM... You will find there is a wealth of useful information archived there IF ONLY folks will take the few moments to use it.
Bob Fenner>

kick-Ich with hyposalinity??     3/18/14
I have a bare QT tank set up with salinity at 1.014. I have a couple of
apparently healthy clowns and a yellow tang, plan on buying a hippo tank
and powder blue tang and keeping them in there for at least three weeks.
I've read that salinity needs to be 1.010-1.013 to be really effective so
I'll be lowering salinity. My question is, I have a bottle of Kick-Ich.
Would it do any harm to use that prophylactically with the hyposalinity??
Any thoughts on Poly Lab Medic?
<Please search WWM re... scam product/s; no real efficacy
... Bob Fenner>
Thanks!
Mark

Borbonius mark, scam product/s     5/20/13
Hi,
<Frank>
I am worried about my borbonius Anthias.  He has a mark on his side and i determined that his spots are not flukes/Ich.
<Mmm, no; this is due to a physical trauma... the other mucus spots likewise... not patterned like neuromast destruction/HLLE... the fish either ran into something or something ran into it...>
 He had this mark for a month and is eating normal and acting normal.  The fish also has white bumps  by the eyes. I tried ruby reef rally
<Worthless... see WWM re this scam, co.>

to see if it would help, but all it did was lower my ph in which i lost a big xenia colony, a beautiful gorgonian, a plate coral, and my maxima clam.
<.... Arghhhh>
 I'm worried that this could get infected.
<Not likely...>
  My only guess that it could be a small bite mark from my clownfish (female). 
<Oh yes>

I do not see any real aggression from my clown, but she definitely bites me when my hands in the tank (she knows how to go between my fingers).  Anyway enclosed are some pics that i took when he stood still for me.  Lastly, my parameters are all normal (ph, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite).  My salinity is 1.026 and temp stays consistent around 78.  Thank you.
<No treatment advised; though you may want to move either this fish or the female clown... Separate them. Bob Fenner>

Bitten

triggerfish keep dying   6/21/12
I have followed your site for some time and noticed the detailed answers/advice you seem to offer. I am a very frustrated aquarist. Over the last 3 months I've purchased separately 10 triggerfish that die almost immediately.
<?!>

 (4 clown triggers, 2 BlueLine, 1 whitetail, 2 undulated, 1 Huma BlueLine). I know a good aquarist should find out what's wrong before adding more but I am doing everything right. I have 6 SW tank setups with groupers, eels, damsels, a marine Betta, harlequin tusk, & pufferfish all thriving in different tanks. As I add triggerfish the initial acclimation is fine, they're eating and getting along with others. Within a week or so it's the same MO; their eyes begin to cloud, small white dots on their fins develop, and it seems their scales begin to peel. After getting progressively worst, each stops eating and after a week or two dead.
<Something up here...>
My parameters seem fine: ph 8.3, 0 nitrites, ammonia, 5 nitrates(unnoticeable in some cases), salinity 1.023 range. Medications and a QT tank for most doesn't help. The latest was the BlueLine (55g) and clown(150g); acclimation was fine, LR, canister filters, protein skim, 77 temp, parameters were near perfect, and after a few days, white spots, cloudy eyes, not eating, and then death. I purchased both from online retailers but others I have purchase locally with the same results.
<Mmm, what's going on here?>
This is extremely frustrating and disappointing for both the costs I'm out of and simply not knowing why these fish are dying while others thrive. I take these deaths personally as I am dedicated and serious and hate to this happen to any of my fish.  Also using Instant Ocean sea salt which I hope is not the issue. Any assistance or guidance is appreciated.
<Well, there are no specific "Balistid only" pathogenic diseases... what might mal-affect them would do the same to the puffers, other fish groups... Have you changed your protocol in dipping/bathing new purchases?
Perhaps there is insufficient oxygen (using RO water in dips?) or too much formalin exposure... Explain to me your modus operandi from purchase to main tank placement. Bob Fenner>
Re: triggerfish keep dying; being killed     6/23/12

I have tried two primary methods:  a Methylene Blue dip before the QT tank and a product my LFS suggested called Ruby Reef Rally.
<A scam... see WWM re>
 After a few days and noticeable cloud eye, white spots, and laggard movement,
<Could be the pepper sauce...>
 I use Chem-Marine parasite products, Melafix,
<These last two are worthless as well... Please search on WWM...>

and EM Erythromycin to varied degrees. The most recent happened to both 5"clown and 6" bluelined, both in new species only cycled tanks (150g, 55g) where parameters were excellent. I also used this product I discovered call Seachem Stability and Stress Coat hoping this would help. I let the bag float for 1/2hr and pour 1/2cup of tank water every 5mins into the bag for about an hour.
<... and see WWM re acclimation>

 But it has happened to my other triggers once mixed in with other species.
Very disturbing and can't figure out the issue especially since other fish are fine. I visited my LFS today which had a fresh crop of triggers but I didn't dare purchased any.  I noticed how vibrant each were in their tanks and also notice they are using rock substrate where as I use sand on a 3" bed. thx
<Read. BobF>

Allicin (Diallyl thiosulphate)   4/1/12
Hi Crew, Yes the dreaded Ich problem. Has there been any trials of either placing crushed garlic in a sock, or similar and leaving it floating in a tank for several hours and changing it everyday, or prepared Allicin to add to a tank?
<To be clear, there is no evidence that Garlic (Allicin) has any effect on the parasite Cryptocaryon (Marine Ich). The only anecdotal evidence is that the garlic acts as an appetite stimulant which helps a fish that is otherwise stressed out to feed better and in theory, help it fight off the parasite better. Again, there is no evidence to support this, just a hope. There are only 3 ways to deal with this parasite and all take place in a QT tank. Copper Treatment, Hypo salinity, and the tank transfer method. Please search WWM for details about each.>
Do you think the first suggestion could harm my reef tank even if it does not help with the Ich?
<No harm other than unnecessary nutrients and the fact that your water may smell like garlic....;)>
Regards, Adam.
<Bobby>
Ich. Garlic     4/2/12

Hi Crew, I have a 5 inch Regal Angel, Copperband Butterfly, 11/2 inch Emperor Angel, 2 Ocellaris clowns and a Purple Tang. Two days ago the Purple Tang (having thinner mucus) had about within 24 hours ten white spots, which spread to the other fish except the clowns. Being a reef tank my options were limited so I soaked live brine shrimp in freshly cut garlic
<Of no use whatsoever...>

 for 15 min.s and feed them for the last two days. All spots are gone, even on the Purple Tang.
<Nah... just cycled off...>

I know I am not out of the woods yet but as there are no spots even on the tang as the life cycle is not always in sync I hope the smell of the garlic has confused the Ich to find it's host. Will keep you updated but I do think there is something in the garlic theory. Here is an interesting article from over ten years ago - 
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html Regards, Adam.
<No sale. I'd be reading... Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich.    4/3/12

Bob, I tend to suspect you are right, however if this is the case surely everyday a few white spots would appear as the life cycle is not in perfect harmony?
<Mmm, no; most cases start, express themselves in a synchronous fashion at first...>
 Today Tuesday there is not a spot in sight. At 26C how long until the next wave of infection?
<Three-four days... I'd be reading on WWM, and acting... start here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above. BobF>
 Regards, Adam.
FAO Bob Fenner. Cryptocaryon update, garlic   3/4/12

Hi Bob, As for you readers I write with an update..
<Ah good>
I write not to provoke an argument as I am sure you see more Ich comments than I do, however as you know I run a reef tank that did have Ich but I left it fallow for nearly four weeks at around 30C as higher temps speed up the life cycle. Five days ago I added fish, perhaps I should have set up a QT tank but had two small clown fish in the tank for a few days and they were fine. I appreciate there is a risk of transfer with the new fish but took the chance. My small Emperor Angel, Purple Tang, Regal Tang are still Ich free and eating but my Copperband has a few spots on him today perhaps as he is the only fish who did not eat the garlic soaked food, all the other fish ate garlic soaked I've brine shrimp. I did source some live brine shrimp but sadly cannot source anymore so I am feeding Mysis with the hope of getting them onto New Life Finicky Fish Formula, which the Emperor and Purple Tang already eat. Again, the only fish to get Ich is the Copperband who is not eating the garlic soaked Mysis. There has to be some correlation to garlic.
<Superficially perhaps>
I cut about four/five slices of garlic and leave with the food for around 15 min.s in about 1cm of bottled drinking water before feeding. Surely the Purple Tang is normally 10 times or more susceptible. I would at this stage have to put the non transfer of Ich to the other fish down to the garlic.
<... anecdotal>
 I feed them about 4 times a day. I freshwater dipped my Copperband for 7 min.s and about 90% of the spots are gone. I hope to maintain this process until the fish become immune or I can kill enough of the (pregnant) Whitespot off by daily freshwater baths as the spots are 100's of babies about to enter the tank. The problem I now have is that the Copperband will only eat brine which I cannot source. I hope that when he sees the other fish eating Mysis he will adapt. I felt cautious about buying him as I know they are difficult to get to eat. My tank water is fine sourced from the tropical Indian Ocean I am sure if not the Regal would be in trouble.
Regards, Adam.
<B>
Luck is with me. More Crypt   3/4/12

Hi Crew, I could only source frozen bloodworm as I live in an island in the Indian Ocean as an alternative to Mysis that all the other fish ate except the Copperband and all the other fish chewed on it but spat it out. The Copperband loved it, perhaps not ideal nutrition for him but should give me some time to acclimatise him on to other foods. The white spots have all gone I trust from the long freshwater dip, would they normally stay attached for more than approx 12 hours, I would have thought 2-3 days? I am going out for a drink now, marine fish keeping is a challenge but I have been doing so for over 30 years and still love it. Regards, Adam.
<And you, BobF>

Please Help! "Fix"/API poisoning of Clownfishes    4/18/11
Hi to my favorite aquabuddies!
<Mich>
I am in need of some help- as the more I research, the less I know what I am looking at.
Can you please look at my link, and tell me what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AknE7rg5qYM
(if the above link does not work... I am listed as Volitans2007 on YouTube, it is there in my video list, but I hope this works for you to get an idea of what I am seeing)
Tiny white nodules / bumps on one of my Picassos.
History: when I had acquired them (very very small babies), they were fine, in fact "found" each other, so I bought the pair in hopes they will mate. Upon being home for a few weeks, they began to bicker, fight, bite, etc- I figured to establish dominance?
<Likely so>
They both had 'wounds' that looked fuzzy on their mouths, where they had been biting, I began dosing Melafix, and they were fine.
The one (whom I think is the female - to - be) is doing well. The smaller one is the one I am concerned about.
He had broken out in little bumps when I stopped the Melafix (thinking they were fine I stopped it). And it goes away.
I noticed if he gets stressed, it comes back, like when I add coral or change the rockwork. So my initial thought was Ich. But this is raised, I can see it, it looks more like nodules. Not a dusting of salt like Ich is referred to.
A fellow hobbyist suggested this link:
http://www.chucksaddiction.com/disease.html
I am not sure - monogenean parasites? Nematodes?
<Not likely, no>
Any ideas at all of what this could be, and what course of treatment I can take?
<Some sort of irritation to the skin... not Crypt, nor Lymphocystis...>
( I have fish flex forte in the house, but have never used it on my fish... if this may help- how do I dose it?)
<Don't know>
Thank you- I am stressing out - not sure what to do.
Michelle Yingst
<I'd work on improving the environment, perhaps bolstering immunity (supplementing foods)... Not add Mela- or any other "fix". Bob Fenner>
Re: Please Help!   4/18/11
I have come to love contacting the Crew, as you all respond VERY quickly, and it is appreciated!
I moved the pair into a separate tank, with a foam filter for now, a clay pot, and a heater (a few rocks to keep the filter in place)
I just dosed some Melafix before I sat down and saw your response.
<... please see WWM re this phony product Michelle... of all people, you work in the real medical sciences. This material is toxic>
Ok- I will hold off on continuing to add that, and will continue instead with a wider variety of food, the garlic diced very fine as suggested by another hobbyist,
-VitaChem? - Selcon? essential elements?
<The first two>
I will be sure to boost these little guys up, as I am soo in love with them, I can't wait for the day I can be a proud mamma to a clutch of their babies! Their coloration / patterns have come in nicely :) So I want to be sure to help them heal. And keep them around for a very healthy, happy life. :)
Question- though... lower the salinity/sg and temp? Or remain at 78degrees and 1.036, had read 1.018 would help kill any parasite? True/False? And would that affect the fish in a negative way?
<Leave all else as is... there is no parasite here>
(* on a totally separate note, but since I have you here lol, I am going to take advantage of being able to share with you: on my "Percularis" babies you helped me ID, only one is still going very strong, the others have not survived. Today the little guy is 87 days old! Whoo hoo!!! That is a big accomplishment considering I haven't been able to get any of the babies from this pair to survive. I have another clutch due this week, so excited to see how many this time around will make it. I do notice the egg clusters are getting bigger in size/count- so I am hoping this helps.- Just wanted to share :) )
Have a great evening-
Your friend, Mich
<And you dear. BobF>
Re: Please Help!   4/19/11
Good morning, and thank you.
<Welcome>
Well, I woke up this morning to 2 happy Picassos. :)
<Ah good>
*I will definitely stop using this product, and will look into it.
<It's worse than a placebo...>
(I went on the suggestion of a LFS owner, something I usually NEVER do, as I always go with my gut, but for some reason thought I should try the 'natural' remedy of Melafix.
<Would you do this if it were important for your own health? I would hope/trust not>
I work in the office part of the field, collections specialist : accounts.
<Ahh>
But I will be jumping into the reviews of this product.
Thank you for pointing it out to me)
Thank you again- you are a wealth of help and knowledge.
Until next time :)
'Chelle
<Be seeing you. BobF>

Peppermint Shrimp & Hermit issues with Ich Attack.. 'Reef safe'... NOT  4/14/10
Hi-
<Hola!>
I have a 12g Nano reef tank that has a few LPS, live rock and some other corals. There was also a peppermint shrimp and a few hermits of different varieties (blue & red).
<Ok>
I decided to purchase two Percula clowns for the tank. Upon getting them home and acclimating, they did well, but the larger one came down with something the next day that I'm not quite sure what.
<Wot no Quarantine? Mistake no.1>
I researched and figured it to be Brooklynella due to the rapid breathing and lethargy.
<Mmmm>
The larger one died and I ran out to get something to fix the situation.
<A knee-jerk reaction. Had you read.. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/brooklynella.htm>
I chose Kordon's Ich Attack as it is reported to be reef safe
<No such thing>
And treats a wide spectrum of things organically.
<Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/homeopathfaqs.htm?h=ich+attack>
I dosed the tank with 200% strength as it appeared to be an advanced case as the smaller one also had similar symptoms (The bottle said I could).
<It also says its reef safe which it isnt>
Within hours, the little guy perked up and began to eat. I continued this treatment for two days and noticed that my hermits all began to stop moving. They were alive but extremely lethargic. Additionally, my Pep shrimp who was normally highly active, began to exhibit the same behaviour. The next morning, I noticed the shrimp was in the light and having a hard time standing and moving.
Additionally, his antenna appeared to be brittle. The day prior he had what appeared to be some white fuzz on his antenna and legs when he was under his rock. He stopped moving and we flushed him with a salute.
<Theres your proof if it can kill animals that you can see, such as shrimp, then think what it is doing to all of the lovely little microscopic animals that are so important to your system it is killing them this is the opposite to reef safe>
I immediately stopped dosing (3 days total), changed the water (major, about 40%) and euthanized my hermits to prevent them from having the same fate.
<These could have survived with improved water quality.. I would have left these>
I ran Carbon and a Poly-filter for two days to suck up any other stuff floating in the water.
<Good moves, all>
I also picked up new hermits and a new shrimp. Everything was acclimated and doing what they do in the tank. Well, the clown began to exhibit the same signs of sickness again two days after adding the new guys.
<Because not only is this med. not reef safe, it is also not effective at the job you are using it for>
I dosed the Ich Attack again at 90 % this time and within a few hours, he was great.
<? This is the opposite to learning from experience.. you have experience that this course of action does not work, so you do the same thing again?>
Well, the same thing is happening again three days later with the shrimp and the hermits are just sitting there.
<of course>
The new shrimp has lost a good portion of both antenna and he's currently out in the light in the same spot the other one decided to die.
<No, he did not 'decide' to die.. you killed him>
He's having issues standing and is currently on his side but still moving. I'm going to finish the treatment for the fish this time to insure that whatever he had is eradicated (7 days, on day 4 currently)
<This wont eradicate the parasite A separate system is what you need.. hospital/ treatment/ quarantine tank.. and all new additions should be quarantined as well prior to introduction. Read here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/brooklynellosisart.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm
Your system is infested and will remain so for quite some time>
before adding new shrimp and hermits. What's odd is that my coral and snails are doing fantastic with no adversity to the Kick Ich or whatever else is in the tank.
<they are just not as susceptible>
I'm stumped as to what is going on with the hermits and shrimp.
<Youre killing them by adding chemicals to the system>
The water parameters are fine as well with everything where it should be in regards to ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, calcium and so on.
<Really? There are no numbers here>
Any ideas as to what was/is going on or suggestions?
<Posted. You need to read/ learn about parasitized systems, and not believe the corporate baloney that companies use to separate you from your wallet>
-Alex
<Simon>

White Spot, Marine... "Reef safe" baloney  3/9/10
Hi WWM,
<Hello>
Recently I've setup a fish only system in that it won't house any corals, but will house things like hermit crabs, shrimps and maybe a sea urchin or two along with some small fish.
<Ok>
Wanting to beat the system I decided to seed the filter in the new system with filter material from an established reef tank. However the snag is that prior to my knowledge the reef tank contained white spot introduced by a new coral purchase. The question is how long will it take the white spot to die in the newly setup system which currently doesn't contain any fish - therefore no hosts for the white spot.
<I would wait at least 8 weeks.>
Would you recommend treating the tank with a reef friendly medication such as Myaxzin prior to introducing fish or should I wait for the white spot to die naturally without a host?
<No such thing as reef safe medication for crypt so I would not waste my time.>
If I choose the waiting option - how long should I wait? Will using a reef friendly medication have any detrimental affect on the system?
<As above, 8 weeks minimum, and yes it is possible a "reef safe" medication could either be detrimental to the system or ineffective and a waste of money.>
Thank you.
Best Regards,
Mark
<Welcome>
<Chris> 

Ick and Tangs, & worthless med.s/ f'   2/9/10
I have a 100 gal saltwater tank and recently was wiped out by a combination of Ick and Velvet. I tried a combination of Kick Ick and Rally and, as advertised, they did not kill the coral. The problem is they killed the fish.
<Or at least allowed the parasites to do so.>
Anyway, I am making several water changes and want to introduce new Tangs.
I have read that the combination of an intermittent Diatom Filter and a UV filter might go a long way in preventing and eliminating unwanted parasites. However, these articles are dated. Do you recommend this combination of filters or is my time and money better spent concentrating on proper quarantine procedures and water quality? Thanks.
<QT and water quality by far are more effective.>
<Chris>

Parasite Problems/Snake Oil Remedies -- 11/23/2009
Hello!
<Hello Ashley! JustinN here>
I have a problem in my tank and I believe it is related to parasites, but I'm not sure what to do!
<Lets see if we can help!>
I purchased a new Ocellaris clown a week ago from my LFS. I do not quarantine as I don't have the space for another tank (I know you will hate that!).
<You are correct, and I think you also now see the benefit of a quarantine configuration. Please do consider setting one up in the future -- remember, the tank doesn't have to run all the time, only when you're quarantining new purchases. If you quarantined fish, I bet we wouldn't be chatting now!
*grin*>
A few days later I noticed it had "clownfish disease" (or so my LFS owner thought at least).
<I assume that Velvet or Brooklynella are the 'clownfish disease' that is being referred to here -- is possible, not uncommon.>
I did a 5 minute freshwater dip and put him back in the tank. He looked mostly better, but a few days after that my Purple Firefish died suddenly.
It had one small white spot (about 1/2 cm or so in diameter) but no other obvious signs of distress or disease. I also noticed that my Banggai Cardinalfish had developed what appears to be fin rot. His fins are smaller, the base of each fin is red, and some are covered in a cloudy white film, one is even "glued" to his body by this film. The clown still had one area of missing scales but looked better than before.
<Sounds like a toxic water condition to me -- are you testing your tank regularly on your own?>
My LFS owner recommended I treat with Ruby Reef's Rally, but this is the third day of treatment and I see no improvement.
<And you will likely not see any improvement -- this 'medication' is akin to snake oil, a hoax... have a read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/homeopathfaqs.htm and here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/medfaqs2.htm -- search for "Ruby Reef Rally" within these pages for general consensus of these products...>
The Cardinalfish is only getting worse. Just prior to this outbreak I added a Pulsing Xenia Coral. It looked perky the first day, but it fell into a crack and I had to gently pull it out by the stalk as I could not get to the small rock it was on (after this I glued it to a bigger rock).
<Not likely a problem, I have done this before without deleterious effects to Xenia sp.>
Since doing that and adding the Rally treatment the Xenia has been droopy, is not pulsing, and is turning a dark brown color at the base.
<The Rally is the problem -- Stephen Pro did a study investigating Rally, and other similar 'cure-all' medications, and found that within a few days, a tank treated with Rally would have its Xenia sp. corals melt away into nothing -- very similar as to when copper is added to a reef tank.>
I have a 38 gallon tank with a bunch of live rock, a Galaxy coral, Frogspawn coral, many purple mushrooms, a Monti plate coral, 1 Blue Star Leopard Wrasse, 2 Ocellaris clowns, 1 Banggai Cardinalfish, 1 Mandarin Goby, 1 Skunk Cleaner shrimp, 1 Harlequin shrimp, 1 Sally Lightfoot crab, several blue-leg hermits, and a bunch of different snails. I use RO water from my LFS that they mix with aquarium salt and I do water changed bi-weekly so tank parameters are always normal.
<Are you testing these parameters, verifying their normalness? Please do provide actual figures -- much easier to provide advice.>
What can I do for the Xenia and the Cardinalfish? Should I continue treating with Rally, try something different, or just let it be? I am leaving town tomorrow night for the Thanksgiving holiday (but will return Thanksgiving night). Please help!
Ashley
<Stop treating with the Rally post haste, and add some activated carbon and/or Poly-Filter to remove the excess medication from your water -- your Xenia may not last much longer if you don't. Beyond this, I would test your water and verify where your parameters currently sit -- the issues sound most like toxic water conditions to me... please do provide further substantial details so we may paint a better picture here. Good luck!
-JustinN>

Re: Parasite Problems/Snake Oil Remedies -- 11/23/2009
I will test the water as soon as I get home and send all water parameters.
I asked my LFS owner to run a test 2 days ago and call me if there was a problem, and I never heard from him so for now let's assume all is well.
<Mmm, I wouldn't do this.. get some quality kits and do testing yourself -- it really is a necessity in this hobby.>
Just before these problems started I used a gel super glue to attach the frogspawn coral to a rock. Could this be the cause of the problem? Perhaps the super glue wasn't dry and released toxins into the water?
<Not at all, this is routinely done by many people -- I have some tubes sitting next to me for exactly this purpose later this week.>
Other than that and the addition of the new clown fish, harlequin shrimp, and Xenia coral, nothing has been added or changed so I am stumped!
<If the problem is toxic water conditions, it's a maintenance issue -- there would be a source of nitrogenous waste somewhere... your biggest problem right now is the Rally -- you need to get this out of the water if you want to save your corals, at least your Xenia.>
I am leaving town this evening and will be gone through Thursday night, so I'm hoping I can solve this before I leave. I really don't want to come home to a dead tank.
<Do a good size water change, clean out any mechanical filtration you have, and add some Poly-Filter into your filtration... Good luck and have a good vacation! -JustinN>
Thanks for all of your assistance, as always!
Ashley
Re: Parasite Problems/Snake Oil Remedies -- 11/23/2009
Thank you for the quick response, Justin!
<Glad to help, Ashley, and sorry this response comes so much later -- I responded to you just before my bedtime.>
I have done a water change and added the Poly Filter and activated carbon.

Chem-Marin STOP Parasites, 3/23/09
Is this an OK product to use?
<A pepper based product, no reason to believe it works.>
I QT'd my fish like you are suppose to and still got ich after adding to display tank.
<Happens occasionally, most likely the parasite was already in the display tank.>
I have been using the nosickfish for four days with absolutely NO RESULTS whatsoever, corals are ok though.
<Not surprising.>
So my backups are Chem-Marin STOP Parasites or a Canadian product called MEDIC which ingredients say Crystalline Peroxide Salts.
<I would not treat my own tank with these.>
I am wanting to treat in tank but have Instant Ocean Lifeguard or API Super Ick Cure for out of tank treatment.
<Neither of these will be helpful here, Lifeguard is a disinfectant (1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone) and Super Ich cure is Nitrofurazone, an antibiotic.>
Any suggestions for products in tank and products out of tank.
<There are no effective in-tank treatments, copper, hyposalinity, formalin, and quinine are all possibilities in a hospital tank. All have their advantages and disadvantages.>
I am frustrated and am not keen on treating fish again out of tank.
<Only way to treat them, otherwise it is maintain high water quality, feed well, and hope for the fish's immune system to develop a partial immunity.>
Poor things, can't handle too much more back and forth.
<If the infection is under control you could leave them and hope for the best.>
Fish affected are Hippo Tang and Foxface. Blk clowns, Yellow tang and Jawfish seem unaffected by it all.
<All will need to be treated, and all are sensitive to copper so choose your treatment method carefully.>
Thanks again and sorry for the bombardment of questions, but please answer them all, hee hee.
Penny
<Tried to the best of my ability. See here for more
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >
<Chris>  

Re: Chem-Marin STOP Parasites, 3/24/09
Thank you for answering.
<Welcome>
I am so bummed about this.  Could the white wormy things that are appearing on my glass be these
ich spores?
<No, would not be visible to the naked eye, more likely copepods.>
They are very tiny but visible to the naked eye.
<See here for more
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_2/cav2i1/Pods/pods.htm .>
I just set up my tank. Should I just stop all treatments then If they will all be a waste of time?
<I would, they could be worse than a waste of time, causing damage.>
I am guessing so.
Dammit!
Sorry. My poor kids.
PS. What lays a larvae in a Zig Zag form? Snails? It is up high where only snails have been. I am wondering if that is where the wormy things are coming from.
<Most likely snail eggs.>
<Chris>

Kordon Ich Attack and Effects 11/23/08 Hi WWM, A fellow RC'er directed me to you to ask a question regarding some problems I am having. . A friend of mine dosed Kordon's Ich Attack in her 45gallon a year ago, in order to save a fish that was covered in ich. (She knows now not to mess with medication after I warned her) The product worked and it save the fish. But she did notice every time that she dosed, her RBTA would shrink, and turn all black. But would eventually return to its normal form. The treatment went on for 2 weeks. After that she did a large water change and ran carbon. This medication says that its organic so she assumes it safe. <...? A common mis/understanding... being "organic" implies only that the compound/molecules involved contain the element carbon... or to a lesser understanding, that the material originates from life somehow... There are MANY such chemicals that are deadly toxic> How ever as time passed the bubble tip anemone bleached a bit, and shrunk in size. Its been about 8 month since the treatment, and the anemone still looks the same. It has not take back its original color or grown in size, but it still eats. Its mouth is also slightly open, I don't know what's going on and the last time I tested her water her nitrates were a bit high. So I don't know if its the medication that's messing with it or just poor water quality. I would like to also know if you have any experience with this so called Ich Attack Active ingredients: 5% active ingredients (multiple natural herbals containing Naphthoqu http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12100 <I do have some background with this material (and the company, Kordon/Novalek, and the previous owner/originator, Bob Rofen). The gist of what I am able and comfortable in relating is that this material is not always safe nor effective. I do not endorse its use, particularly in an established "mixed" fish and invertebrate setting. I do want to state that I am a "fan" of most of Kordon's products and Dr. Rofen's efforts in our interest however. Bob Fenner>

Melafix and Triple Sulfa mixed 9/25/08 I have only three fish in my 55 gallon tank with live rock. A Domino Damsel, a Scotts Damsel and a Bicolor Pseudochromis. I am using a protein skimmer, a UV sterilizer and a power filter. The Bicolor developed cloudy eye. I first treated the tank with Melafix. <Worthless in my opinion.> It did not do any good. <Not surprising.> I then start treating the tank with Triple Sulfa. <In the main tank? Not a good idea.> Within a week of treatment with Triple Sulfa the water was turning brown. <It killed off much of the life on your live rock I would guess.> The eye has improved to about 95%. <This is usually environmental in nature, what are your water parameters?> The other fish are fine. In the mean time the water has stayed brown. <Probably dead stuff from the live rock.> The water is clear but brown. I have changed out about 60 % of the water and stopped treating with the Triple Sulfa. <In the future only treat in a hospital tank, otherwise you have problems like this.> The water still remains brown. I am attributing the brown coloration to the mixing of the two medicines. <I doubt it, think it is more likely do the damage the medications did to your biofilter and live rock.> How can I stop the brown? <More water changes, carbon and Polyfilters to remove the medication.> Richard M. Jevack <Chris>

Re: swim bladder disease... Mela-non-fix   4/16/08 I am writing with thanks for your help with my Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus). He was placed in a ten gallon quarantine tank, stuffed with as much mature live rock as I could put in it. The tank was treated with Melafix, a general fish antibiotic. <Error... this leaf extract is not an antibiotic... not really a "medicine" at all... Is more trouble than it's worth> Each day, I changed two and a half gallons of water and added another dose of Melafix. During the daylight hours, the Mandarin would wedge himself into or under ledges of the rock to stay submerged. After dark, he would allow himself to float up and rest for the night on the surface. This went on for seven days. After seven days I stopped the antibiotic treatments, <Thank goodness> and the daily water changes, thinking his chances were slim to none. On the tenth day, I noticed that he was no longer spending the night on the surface, though his swimming was still labored. After twelve days, his swimming was near normal. And after fourteen days he was cured of his swim bladder problems! Swimming and hunting the rock normally as Mandarins do. He was then moved to a sixty gallon refugium, loaded with rock, where a small female Mandarin lived alone. She has lived alone in there for a year, and took to him instantly. She has now taught him how to eat live brine shrimp fortified with Selcon. And he appears to be on the road to full recovery! I thank you so much for your time and help, and present this success story to you. Richard <Am very glad you ceased the API exposure. This material is more toxic than helpful. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Probiotic Marine Formula 3/20/08 Hello-can't find much info on this product's effectiveness or actual intended use. <Active ingredients sodium chloride and Nitrofurazone.> The few complaints I have seen on forums claim it did not cure Ich infections in their display tank. <The active ingredients in this product can not treat parasitic infections.> I purchased a bottle and the label does not state that treating the display tank for sick fish is it's purpose. The only information on the bottle is it is to be used for preventive maintenance. <Bet lawyers had a hand in that.> I just wanted to know if this product can prevent healthy fish from getting bacterial infections, specifically Vibrio and if it is safe for my display tank without any long term negative effects. Thanks, Dane <I would not treat the tank prophylacticallly and I have my doubts that this product will prevent much of anything.> <Chris><<Well-stated Chris... right to the point... RMF>>

Black Dogface Puffer Illness, Crypt, poisoning, reading   3/15/08 About 3 weeks ago we noticed ich on our black dogface puffer. We set up a hospital tank and administered non-copper ich treatment. <Of what variety?> The ich was gone within a couple of days. <Uh, no... just cycled off the trophonts...> After a week of being healthy, we started noticing cloudy eyes and a white film all over body (that comes and goes). When he has the film, he is very lethargic and doesn't eat.. just sits at bottom of tank. Do you have any ideas as to what this might be? We have also done water changes and administered MelaFix. <Worse than worthless. See WWM re... you're poisoning...> Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Concerned Puffer Owner <And one that needs to read: See WWM re Tetraodont health, Cryptocaryon... Bob Fenner>

Re: Black Dogface Puffer Illness  3/15/08 I appreciate your help although I think we waited too late to ask for any. As I was emailing you last night, my husband was doing a water change. After that the puffer swam to top and stuck his head out of water, let my husband wipe most the film coat off, but then went back down to bottom and died. :-( This is our first experience with puffers and we really enjoyed him and are sad that it wasn't a better experience. Thanks again for your advice. we will definitely read up on puffers before we get another. <I am so sorry for this/your loss... And so angry with API and whoever instructed you to pour a worse than worthless leaf extract into your main display to "treat" a parasitic condition.... IF only I, our Crew had the opportunity to properly instruct fellow aquarists on adequate husbandry... many, MANY organisms would not have to suffer or die prematurely... I do hope you sense my (palpable) frustration here... And again, I am compassionate (from the Latin meaning "to bear pain with") your situation. Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Saltwater disease??? Chelmon et al.  2/13/08 Messiah of all fish knowledge a.k.a. Bob, <Heeee! All bow down> Any idea what would cause the stomach area to look like it exploded on the inside cause the fish to bleed internally, with out any damage to the outside of the fish? <As stated... summat it et> Also, what is your opinion on the 100% organic Ich-attack by Kordon? <As much as I am a friend, know the owner, Bob Rofen and respect him, "like" most of their products... I am skeptical... though have read a few credible reports of success with this product... RMF>

Marine Medication/Kordon Ich Attack 2/14/08 Hey guys- <And gals.> This isn't a question, relieved right? <Nope, is the reason we are here.> Well I just wanted to let you know about a reef safe treatment that I have used. Kordon's Ich attack is 100% organic. I have a mixture of inverts, corals, and fish and all have done much better. From not moving around much to now eating like normal. My Coral Banded even molted while during treatment. <Coincidence or stressed from change in water quality.> I read all the topics and a few people made a reference to it, so I went to my LFS and explored this product further after internet research. So just wanted to pass along this hopefully useful information. Love the site, use it all the time. Keep up the good work! <Brady, in my opinion, this stuff is worthless, Bob may feel the same, but thanks for sharing your experience with us. James (Salty Dog)> Brady

Re: Story/Questions about misfortunes with Ich-Attack... LR regrowth  03/11/2008 Thanks for your help earlier, but I need some more. The Live Rock isn't looking any better. <Ummm, this will take at least weeks... maybe a few months...> I scrubbed it clean with the toothbrush and replaced 100% of water and 100% of the sand and placed it back into the tank with new carbon and everything. I'm keeping the light low but after 48 hours the white fungus looking material is back. <Will die back in time... patience> And it smells again. I'm doing periodic water changes to help water quality, but I just don't know what to do at this point. I need the rock to stabilize in order to do anything with it, and I don't want to bleach it as there is still life on the rock (worms and other things). I added some extra air bubbles and where the bubbles go through the rock it keeps the white stuff off by agitation but I'm not going to bubble everything, I know that can't be good for it. Should I just wait it out? What should I do to keep this stuff from taking over? Please help. Cory, Miami <Time going by... these are opportunistic mixes of algae, decomposers... they'll cycle off... out... Bob Fenner>

Re: Story/Questions about misfortunes with Ich-Attack  3/12/08 Thanks for your help. This morning, I noticed some of it dying off, becoming detached. I'll just wait it out and then re-seed with some healthy rocks after a couple months. Cory, Miami <A good plan. BobF>

Melafix in the main tank, Improper QT methods 10/23/07 Hello, <Hi> I have a 125 gallon FOWLR. Specifics on the tank are: 6in live DSB, about 100lbs of live rock, and 2 sumps (a 20 gallon and a 30 gallon). The 30 gallon contains a refugium with live sand, live rock, macro algae and a orange spotted goby. The 20 gallon houses my protein skimmer in one chamber and a return pump in the other. Water from the refugium drains into the return pump chamber. Current inhabitants of the main tank include: 1 tiger wardi goby, 1 juvenile Koran angel, 1 powder brown tang, & many Nassarius snails. The tang was the most recent addition, after a quarantine period of two plus weeks in the refugium. <Not a good way to do it. QTing a fish is as much for the protection of the current residents as much as the new addition. Needs to be in a completely separate system, otherwise disease will be transferred between the refugium and the main tank.> Soon after I put the tang in, one of the angel's eye became puffy and cloudy. The tang seems to be brushing against the sand more now that he is in the main tank. <Water quality? Any other signs of possible parasite infection?> Do you recommend treating the entire system with Melafix? <I never recommend treating the main tank with anything, and Melafix is pretty worthless anyways. These fish need to be removed to a separate hospital tank if they need to be treated for something.> The manufacturer states that the product is reef safe but I am not sure if anything in the refugium will be affected. <Very well may, and the product will not help the fish either.> My second question is, given my livestock and system, would you recommend me adding a flying gurnard in the future? <No, see here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/flyinggurnardfaqs.htm for details.> Thank you for your time and advice. Kiet <Welcome> <Chris>

Sick tang... No useful data... linear life – 09/17/07 I have a sick blue tang. It has a white shimmer area on top of fish when I look close I think it moves like a ripple effect. Had this over 1 week. Today the tang is breathing fast and constantly scratching against the rocks also keeps its top fins down. <Bad signs> I am new to marine 3 months now, have pond and tropical fish but never had any disease problems. Tang is 1 inch long. <Wow, small...> Had it 4 weeks. Never quarantine as first and only fish. I have small hermit, 12 turbo snails, 1 small orange starfish, 1 cleaner shrimp, 1 anemone <! What species?> and live rock. All parameters are fine am checking 3 times a week cos fish not well. Salinity reading is 1.022 <Too low...> and temperature at 26. Im also doing 2 10% water changes over the last 2 weeks. I think my fish has ich but am not 100% sure. I purchased a product called eSHa OODINEX. The person at the aquatic store said its safe to use with invertebrates <... according to the maker: http://www.eshalabs.com/oodinex.htm it is... But really... how is such a medication supposed to sort out deleterious and non-deleterious forms of non-vertebrate life?> and was for a range of treatments. I wanted to put tang in hospital tank and treat with copper but they said that could cause more stress to the tang. Dosage was for 3 days which I have done. Today is day 4 and tang not to good breathing fast and constantly scratching against the rocks. I remember reading your article about freshwater dips, so I made one up and put the tang in for 10 min.s. During this time the tang not happy just lye on its side so I gently shook the bucket now and again so it would have a swim. During this time the diseased area swelled up and went very white it looked like a water blister then it detached and fell of the tang. I immediately put tang back in main tank and what a difference in the last hour it has never scratched against the rocks and its breathing has gone back to normal and has raised its top fin. Please can you tell me what has the tang got how shall I treat it or has it gone. It still has a area that looks like a dark patch but could that be due to all the scratching against the rocks . Please help. <... No data on water quality, your system... You need to read... What you seek is assuredly posted on WWM... It is not clear to me what you already know... Please start (again) here: http://wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htm Imperator Angelfish not eating, help please, thanks in advance, "Fix" f'   7/12/07 Good Day, First, thank you very much for your service that you provide. My question is my Imperator Angel is not eating. I received the fish about 5 days a go, and the size is about 6-7 inches. <Mmm, a bit larger than ideal... large/r specimens don't ship, adapt as well as ones a bit smaller (3-4" overall length or so) to captive conditions> He is nice and fat as well. I have him in a 150 gallon tank, with a Niger trigger, <This may be a factor> a snow flake eel (8 inches), a yellow belly damsel, and a coral beauty about 3 inches. I have the following tank setup: All water parameters test good, temperature is constantly around 78 -80 degrees. 150 lb.s of live rock, 150 gallon SeaClone skimmer, 1"-2" layer of crush coral for a bed, 10 gallon tank connected to the sump filled with Chaetomorpha, a 18 watt UV sterilizer, and a few pieces of live rock where the bio balls used to be. Salinity is 1.023. Also, have a bag of carbon setting in the sump. Also, have an air stone running on the left side of the tank to provide plenty of oxygenated water. I have tried feeding him frozen mysis shrimp, krill, Nori, flakes, pellets, and clam bits from the grocery store. <Good...> Tried a mix of the foods listed with garlic guard, and still no luck. I did place a strip of Nori on a clip on the glass, but all he did was go up to the Nori and investigate it.3 I did notice to day that he was breathing heavy on the right side gill and not using the left side. I did change out 60 gallons three days ago. Any suggestions would be great. I really want to stay away from medications and Pima and Mela fix. <Worthless> I have always lost fish when I used these products. Again, thanks in advance, Stuart <Five days is actually too short a time to really begin worrying... I would keep trying the assortment you list... perhaps adding a whole, opened small bivalve... and soaking in a vitamin prep.... these also double as appetite stimulants. Bob Fenner>

Cloudy eye... RMF schwipe at "Fixes", small SW systems   6/5/07 Hi Crew, I have a Royal Gramma for over 2 years. I recently noticed a cloudy spot in the center of one eye. <If only one this points to a physical trauma as cause... rather than a toxic condition, pathogenic disease (if bilateral)> I did some reading about cloudy eyes and was wondering if this is in fact what I have been reading about since in this case it is not the whole eye. I also found some advice to use Melafix. <Not by me... and a good case in point why I DO NOT endorse such "phony remedies"... The strength of force, suggestion that they are cures...> Is there a consensus about this? <Decidedly not. May I ask you... if you had an eye ailment, would you pour tea into it? This is what these "fixes" are... Melaleuca leaf extract here> For some reason or other my impression from the Crew is that not much is thought of regarding this product. I have a bottle of the stuff that is probably 2 years old and never used. Any idea if it spoils? <Yes> Someone asked (6/4) about fish for a 20 gallon and mentioned a royal Gramma, neon gobies and cardinals. In my case (10 gallon) the gobies and Gramma get along. <This is too small a space for a Grammatid> It is the cardinal that the Gramma pushes around. <...> But when it comes to feeding time the cardinal holds his own. If I had to do it over I would probably go with a firefish instead of the Gramma. The Gramma colors are very bold but the firefish have some nice colors to them as well and they do not get bossy like the Gramma. Thanks <The root problem very likely here is crowding, territoriality... the aggressive behavior is causing too much stress, the one fish has likely dashed itself onto something hard... Fix their world, don't try to band-aid symptom/s... Bob Fenner>

Mela/PimaFix in a Full Blown Reef Tank?  – 05/16/07 Hey WWM crew! <What's up?> This is Mike J. <This is Adam J.> Its 4 AM in the morning and I can not sleep because of my shrimp! <Well you should ask them to stop playing those steel drums (That was a Disney reference by the way).> The problem is I had a Clown fish that came down with internal parasites, and I had add Melafix and Pimafix, Which they state ON the bottle that it is reed safe! and even safe on Anemones! <I'd be inclined to disagree. Furthermore any medication should be  used in a QT tank.> So shortly after I had added the Melafix and the Pimafix about 10 min.s I'd say, all of my invertebrates started to act strange. My anemone closed up, my two Cleaner shrimp had started to lose their balance and one of them started to fall over and stay upside down, so I had started to get scared and I tried to google it and also search WWM for it but no luck...so I had added the cabin filter back in, and did a 25% water change. About 3 hours later most of my invertebrates are ok now, my Anemone had re-opened itself back up, my coral banded shrimp is doing ok, but my two cleaner shrimp doesn’t seem to recovering. One of them isn’t so bad, but the other one ( the one that would fall over and stay like that ) hasn’t seemed to change at all…what’s wrong with my shrimp?? Is it going to die? <Hard to say right now, I would continue with large water changes and running lots of carbon.> My tank has the following, 4 Clown fishes (false Percula they get along great!) 4 snails, 1 coral banded shrimp, 2 scarlet skunk shrimps (cleaner shrimps), one Yellow Tale Damsel, and finally one Condy Anemone. I have a 20 gal tank, my Ammonia is 0, Nitrite is 0, Nitrite is below 10, SPG is 1.025, Temp is 76.9F, and pH is 8.3. Please help! I don’t want my Shrimp to die! Thanks <Just see the above comments re: QT/medication and keep up with the water changes. Adam J.>

"Organic Aqua" Is this legit? 3/1/07 Greetings from Cape Town, South Africa.  <Hello from Chicago, USA.> First of all - thanks for an incredible site! I've spent hours and hours going through your pages and I know my fishy buddies would add their appreciation if they could :) <We appreciate your efforts to educate yourself.> Right, to the point: I know you guys don't endorse specific products, <We do have our favorites that we share> but I came across this product line (Organic Aqua) and it intrigued  me. Think you could indulge me and take a look at www.organicaqua.com ? It sounds too good to be true. Again, thanks for the wonderful site! - Anusha <Does sound too good to be true and probably is.  I put this product with many others, ones that do not list exactly what is in them.  I will not use anything that does not list its ingredients.> <Chris>

"Organic Aqua" Is this legit? Part II 3/2/07 Thank you for your quick reply Chris! <Welcome.> I thought so. A friend of mine sent me the link (he's just starting out) and your reply will definitely help me in convincing him to have patience and to cycle his tank the proper way. <50% of this hobby is having patience.> All his yet-to-be-bought fish thank you I'm sure!  <And thanking you as well.> Hope you're having a smiley day :) Anusha <Chris> About MelaFix and PimaFix   2/13/06 Why do you say these are toxic if their made from plants? <Mmm, not (very) toxic, just not very effective... mild antimicrobial activity at best> Penicillin is from plants too. <Not correct... http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=2844191042360&lang=en-US&mkt=en-US&FORM=CVRE is made from a mold, a fungus. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel Not eating... Melafix/tea non-treatment  - 01/24/06 Hi Bob, <Chase> I hope you can please help me with this? I have had a 3.5 in Flame angel for over 7 months now. About 7 weeks ago I had a bad case of ick that ended up killing my Bicolor blenny before I could get it under control. I finally have it under control with no signs of ick for 6 weeks. The problem that I am having is the flame angel hasn't eaten in about 6 weeks. I treat the ick with MelaFix (which now I am not sure was the best thing). <... is not... the ich is still there... its presence (sub-symptomatic) is likely largely at play here> I feed the tank spectrum, flake, live brine, frozen brine, Mysis and bloodworms. The flame angel eat great before and eat everything that I gave him. He hasn't loss any weight that I can tell, but he is eating the normal food. He also has come very shy and hides in the rocks a lot. There is nothing in the tank picking on him and everything else is eating well. About 1 week ago I noticed that his tail (the purple part) was tearing and since he had no appetite I thought it maybe fin rot so I again dosed MelaFix which helped the fin rot within 2 days but he still isn't eating. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks for your help. <... if people are sick with a parasite, do they think of drinking tea to cure themselves?> 90 Gallon FOWLR, Copperband Butterfly, Flame Angel, Yellow coris wrasse, 6 line wrasse, Kole tang, pair of clowns, shrimp goby, Bartlett Anthias, diamond goby, yellow spot goby   Chase Brodsky <You will find the Cryptocaryon resurfacing should this system be "challenged" or another fish added... see WWM re treating Crypt. Treat the cause, not symptoms. Bob Fenner>

Re: Melafix treated fish in distress  - 01/09/2006 Thanks for the help Bob.  Just for the record, I only look to your web site for answers to my fish problems and that is where I saw Melafix recommended for fin rot.  Several members of your crew seem to be recommending it. Thanks again Tina <Thank you for this. Yes to some here being fans of these leaf extracts... I place these (Mela, Pima...) materials as being of mild anti-microbial effect... with some negative, but generally insignificant side-effects. My real "gripe" with such homeopathic remedies/cathartics is that there are actually better (more efficacious) remedies known, useful... given input re water quality, history of a system, some close observation of mal-affected livestock. My fear is that in the largely-effected "Madison Avenue" mentality which is "the West", folks want to/buy "something" hoping/trusting "it works"... and that these remedies pass for "science"... they are decidedly not. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Blue? Clownfish... Too small a system, mis-medicated/poisoned  - 01/12/2006 Hi Crew, My name is Bob and I'm a first time 'caller'. <Hello Bob> To try and make a long story short, I have a maroon clown for about 18 months now. He has been a very healthy and happy fish, especially since I added a Bubbletip about six months ago. Lately though he's been acting very erratically. He's been fin slapping the h**l out of the Bubbletip, more than usual. <Happens... sometimes to the detriment/death of the anemone...> What has me worried is that tonight I noticed that the white strip around his head is 'cracked and peeling?', his eyes are glazed over, ( he can still see with no problem), and he's turning blue around his mouth, the tip of his dorsal fin, and his tail fin. <This may be "normal"... or... caused by...?> Last week I had a seemingly healthy Flame Angel die from suspected velvet. The 33 gal. tank <... this tank is too small...> was  treated with Rally. <Garbage... worthless... a sham... is this clear?> P.H is 8.0-8.2, Alk. normal, Nitrite <0, Ammo 0-0.25, and Nitrates (which I can never seem to get under control no matter what I try), are at 20. <This is an okay value> It was during this treatment that the clown completely  stopped moving while inside the Bubbletip. <... and what did you think?> I went in after him with the net, (which he just hates) and he went berserk, swimming erratically around the tank until he came to rest inside a cave where he stayed for quite a long time. This was very unusual since he rarely leaves the Bubbletip except to eat and maybe do a lap or two. Now tonight, almost a week after the treatment this happens. Also very unusual, on both occasions he never came out to eat. He's normally the first one to the top when he sees the feeding dish.   Pleeeeease help as I don't want to lose my "Boz". As I am not very good with computers or typing, If at all possible a phone call would be much appreciated.                                                  Thanking you in advance                                               Robert Jack <... well, I'd use some activated carbon to aid in the removal of compounds resultant from the "treatment" and its subsequence... and really just hope for the best here. Bob Fenner> Re: Blue? Clownfish ... facts, other noise - 01/12/2006 Good evening Mr. Fenner, <Mornin' Bob> Robert Jack here again. Thank you very much for your e-mail. "Boz" seems to have stabilized, although his sight has gotten worse. Without knowing what to do, I gave him a 15 minute freshwater bath at 10:30 this morning. <I could use one of these... to wake up> I could see the whitish silk coming off of him, which leads me to believe that he is suffering from Velvet or Ich. (It was thought that my Flame Angel died from Velvet.) <... could be... or not> As I mentioned last night, he hates the net and is usually extremely difficult to catch, yet I was able to trap him with absolutely no problem. He kept swimming into different obstacles,( heater, powerhead, etc.), one of the reasons I believe his sight has worsened. Tonight I noticed that once again he was staying inside a cave that was on the other side of the tank from where the anemone is. Then it hit me!! The 150 watt metal halide light was bothering his eyes. I gave him another 15 minute bath at 10:30 tonight and when I put him back into the tank, next to the anemone, I turned the light off and put a towel over that end of the tank to eliminate as much light infiltration as possible. <Be careful re heat/fire...> He's still there an hour and a half later, so we'll see if this helps. Now for a couple of questions regarding your responses to my earlier e-mail. 1) I take it that you don't want to hazard a guess as to why he is turning a bluish colour <As stated... this can/does happen> 2) Tank is too small??? I started this addiction with a 10 gallon tank with a 4 Striped Damsel, a Blue Damsel, and my Maroon Clownfish, I never had any problems what so ever. <Unusual...> My 33 gallon had the Flame Angel, Blue Damsel, Maroon Clownfish, and the Bubbletip, and its just this past week that everything is coming apart on me. Some people say one fish per 10 gallons, others say one inch, (excluding the tail) per 4 gallons. Who is a newby like myself suppose to believe? <... take a look in the wild, others experiences... about one cubic inch of fish life per five gallons is about prime> 3) Alright already I get it. Rally is s**t. Once again, what am I suppose to do when it was recommended by a pet store I trusted. What else is there to treat for Velvet without harming the other tank inhabitants? <... Investigate... discern the facts... from opinion. What are the new Iraqi army, police? Who pays them? They're collaborators... You were "sold" a bill of goods... Study, think for yourself.> Once again, I thank you for taking the time to 'listen to me' and advising me. I don't want to lose my "Boz" and am willing to try anything to bring him back to his happy, healthy, and playful self.                                                              BOB   <Good luck, life. Bob Fenner> False WWM testimonial being used (still) - commercial  12/26/05 Heya, Bob... just an FYI (sorry to beat a dead horse if it does not interest you), but the chap (Tyler) with the "No Sick Fish" product line is still using your name/WWM as a false testimonial despite having been routed several weeks ago (Dec 7) on this and other seemingly bogus testimonials: http://www.nosickfish.com/testimonials.jsp <Have sent them (again) the following: Please drop the spurious "endorsement" you have listing my name and WetWebMedia from your "testimonials" page.> Note that for $60 ish... the product claims to spare the need for QT, cures everything you can name... and increases survivability "%200 on wholesale fishes". Hmmm... <Were it but so> The owner also states it is 99.9% reef safe, yet he (Tyler) also admits he did not have the money to do testing on the product to verify it because he spent the money on "masking agents" instead?!? Interesting and concerning :( <I'd throw in "bogus and disconcerting"> I won't trouble you again mate... just hate to see your name used this way and felt pretty sure you did not want the association either. Main page: http://www.nosickfish.com/index.jsp The owners e-mail address is: tyler@nosickfish.com Ant- <Appreciate this. BobF>

Snake oil product using your name as a testimonial  12/13/05 Heya, Bobster The dubious mfg of No Sick Fish products (claiming no QT needed, no water changes... cured viruses, etc) is also claiming a testimonial by you from WWM. <Mmm, disturbing... Can't recall the name of the dapper fellow who I've met a couple time at hobbyist do's, but all I asked him was "what exactly is in this stuff anywho?"... "If you can tell"> I have summarized the matter in response to someone asking me in a post for info on if I thought it could be true. Read my 12/07/2005 06:11 PM post (link below) and the few before it to get caught up to speed and find mfg and WWM links. If the chap is smart enough to pull your bogus endorsement right away... then the matter is likely done. But I did copy the web page in case you wanted it. The thread discussion it is here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=637569&perpage=25&pagenumber=2 <Rats! Am not a "member"... but will look at on return. Thank you for this. BobF, still in Sing.> Anthony Calfo

Probiotic Marine Formula Experience 11/18/05 Hi Everybody! <<Hello.>> I recently bought a bottle of Probiotic Marine Formula from Precision Aquarium. The day I bought it I had a look on the WWM and found nobody wrote about experiences with the product so far so I thought I would write after trying myself. <<Very good, sort of like "e-pinions" of fish stuff, we could use more.>> I had and still have ich in my reef tank. I have 7 fishes. A yellow tang brought ich in the tank but after two weeks it disappeared and he never had symptoms again. Now the only fish that has periodic ich outbreaks is the Gobiodon histrio (clown coral goby green). No other fish ever showed symptoms. I started to use Probiotic Marine Formula 2 months ago and it is worth ABSOLUTELY NOTHING against ich. <<Oh wait, don't tell me, the selling "point" was that it's supposed to be "reef safe", yes? (No longer working this trade, and I live in California's hillbilly-land.)>> I am quite certain it also didn't have any negative impact on other organisms. <<At least. Sheesh.>> So I would say this product is a waste of money. I am planning to set up a quarantine tank and I'll then treat the goby. <<Tried and true.>> So long! Dominique <<Thank you for this, Dominique, the more information on products the better (including real life experiences!). Marina>>

Um, Aloe vera ??  Whaaaaat ?? 7/22/05 Hey Bob and all.... <Sabrina> Uh, weird question.  I've never really thought about this - never had cause to. I'm working on a reply in which the querier has mentioned that she has basically force-fed a goldfish with juice squeezed from an Aloe vera leaf. Now, aside from the fact that Aloe vera tends to make me break out in hives, I would never have considered doing something like this with a fish.  I suppose, since it is essentially plant matter, that maybe it's not exactly harmful or dangerous - but I really don't know. Can anything good come of doing this?  Anything bad? I don't think I've raised my eyebrow this much since the kid who wanted a hammerhead shark.  Any thoughts? -Sabrina <Mmm, don't know... would take a while to look through the Net... is/was there some stated purpose for this trial? BobF>

Re: Um, Aloe vera ?? Whaaaaat ?? 7/22/05 <Mmm, don't know... would take a while to look through the Net... is/was there some stated purpose for this trial? BobF> I have sifted through the net for some time, found accounts of humans ingesting it....  sort of a home remedy for ulcers and the like.  I find no hard evidence of it being either helpful or harmful when used in this manner.  But that's still not a fish, is it?  I am completely at a loss; no idea what effect this would have on a fish. The original reason for this was that she had a typical bloaty goldfish - inadequate diet, gut blockages, you know the drill.  In her prior email, "Spinning Goldfish, Sabrina's Take - II - 04/05/2005", she had mentioned that she had tried to treat the fish "naturally".  I asked what she had tried, and in her new email sent a few days ago, she had explained. Turns out she had tried adding Aloe vera to the water and giving it to the fish orally with an eyedropper. Now, after a more adequate diet (though still with some, er, interesting food options, including oranges....) the goldfish is doing a great deal better.  She hasn't mentioned if she is still administering Aloe vera in this manner, but seems to imply that if she does, it is infrequent.  My gut inclination is to recommend that she not do the Aloe thing at all, and instead just stick with the "tried and true" good green veggie goldfish diet. Any/all thoughts appreciated.... -Sabrina

Re: Um, Aloe vera ??  Whaaaaat ?? 7/23/05 This is not necessarily such a misplaced idea.  Think about it - milk thistle is used for both humans and birds to treat liver ailments.  WWM recommends Epsom salts for a variety of problems, including to be used as a laxative, for fish.  Well, you read the box and that's what it does for people, too.  My own mother was forced to take aloe juice as a child.  I have personal experience of Aloe Vera's efficacy in treating burns, and used it to help heal when I started nursing my firstborn. However, because of its highly viscous nature I would not use it in the aquarium water itself, and knowing that there are other methods tried and true to treat problems in fancies, that's the direction I would lean in. While I fully believe that western medicine is generally a good thing, I also believe that, properly used/administered, there are lots of good, sensible natural remedies as well. As for what we hoomuns have done with our planet's weather, that's a whole other issue. Marina - Cooking in Buckhorn

Re: Um, Aloe vera ??  Whaaaaat ?? 7/23/05 > However, because of its highly viscous nature I > would not use it in the > aquarium water itself, and knowing that there are > other methods tried and true > to treat problems in fancies, that's the direction I > would lean in. Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm thinking, as well. We know that a goldfish with floaty equilibrium problems and fed a very poor diet may have a gut blockage causing the problems.  And we know that a proper diet, possibly coupled with Epsom salts, can help to alleviate the problems.  So....  that's pretty much where I'm headed with this.  Sticking to the "knowns", and leaving the "unknowns" to more adventurous folks than myself. > While I fully believe that western medicine is > generally a good thing, I also > believe that, properly used/administered, there are > lots of good, sensible > natural remedies as well. Certainly....  But have you any idea what sort of dosage one might offer to a goldfish with no wounds suffering from a gut blockage?  The gross lack of data here is what concerns me most.  How much could be too much?  Does it become harmful at a certain amount? Does the handling involved in administering this outweigh any benefits that could be gained in using it?  And so forth.  I guess maybe I have a hard time breaking out of my comfort zone. -Sabrina Sham marine med.s 7/20/05 Ok here is my problem I have a 75 gallon tank loads of live rock and corals the whole nine yards. <Football too?> my sister bought me a fish while I was away on vacation to surprise me needless to say I was very surprised.  it was a beautiful coral beauty angel. anyways about two days after I got home I noticed it had ick on it and my other fish looked as if they had it on them also. <... trouble> I purchased this product called Ecolibrium aka No-Ick offline.  Says that its reef safe. <Sigh...> the only reason I would treat the whole tank in this manner is that it's way too hard to catch the fish in the tank and treat them in my QT tank.  Could this product have any negative side effects on my system even though it says that it is reef safe. <Yes> Also have you ever used this product before. <Yes>   I have also heard that angels don't take well to medications  what could be my options with just the angel fish if I can catch him or will he be fine if I just use the No-Ick stuff according to its directions? Thanks again, Stephen <There is no such thing as a "reef safe" AND effective parasitic medication... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/homeopathfaqs.htm and the links (will take some time...) above where you lead yourself... you need to isolate your fishes (yes, even if this calls for dismantling the tank), treat them elsewhere... with a real medicine, regimen. Bob Fenner>

Sera Cryptopur Hello, <Hi there> Have you had any experience using Sera Cryptopur for treating itch. <No, I use Goldbond on my feet. Oh you mean for saltwater ich/Crypt. Nope... here's their pitch: http://www.sera.de/English/autoframe.htm?url=http://www.sera.de/english/News/news.htm > It says you can use it in the main tank along with live rock and inverts as it does not contain copper. What do you think.. <That there is no such thing as an effective treatment that kills some invertebrate w/o killing other invertebrates... Bob Fenner>

- Ich Help (Help Kick 'Kick Ich') - Bob, <JasonC here today in his stead.> What a wealth of knowledge!! You've already given me a lot of guidance just from reading previous emails. Thanks! But I still have a few questions... I have a bad case of Ich. Already lost two fish, but hope to save the rest. I recently re-set up my 55 gallon tank (was in storage for a while when I moved). I bought a new filter (wet/dry) and protein skimmer (Coralife super skimmer). Everything was great... tank cycled... started adding fish little by little... hey where did all this ich come from? what?... what do you mean quarantine tank?... exactly! now I learn after the fact!! So now I have been toe to toe with the ich for the past week...it seems to be winning. The LFS recommended "Kick Ich."  <I wish this stuff would go away - it is worthless, gives folks a false sense of hope and causes more time to lapse while they wait for the stuff to work, which it never will. Generally leaves you worse off than when you started.>  So I turned off skimmer, poured some in, and it worked great... the first day after using it, spots gone.  <You must understand that ich is a protozoan parasite with a life cycle - you could have likely added nothing and the spots would have vanished - they are in your substrate multiplying.>  So I continued the treatments just like the bottle said. Then, yesterday I found my Sweetlips (who didn't even seem to be infected) dead. Then today, butterfly... dead. Also, my tang (DaVinci) is once again covered, but now even worse. My blue damsel (Stan) and percula clown (Gus) have some minor spots now too. So I figured I needed to take more drastic measures. I dropped the salinity to about 19 and raised the temp (right now it's at like 85). Before doing this I did take my Fire Shrimp (Skeeter) out and put him in a pseudo QT (a 5 gallon bucket with water from the display tank before lowering the salinity). I lowered the salinity simply by removing old water and replacing with tap treated with AmQuel. Good? Bad?  <It will help somewhat, but you'll more likely need to take more drastic action.>  Anyway, that is where I stand now. Tomorrow I am going to get my 10 gallon from storage to set up a QT.  <Good plan.>  So here come most of the questions... The QT tank... bare bottom, room light, sponge filter, heater, PVC pipe for hiding place... that it?  <And a copper test kit.>  Is 10g enough?  <Sure.>  To fill the QT, do I still use 50% water from the display tank even though it is infested with ich?  <Well... you're going to be treating the tank with something, yes? If so, it will deal with any imported parasites.>  If not can I use 100% Catalina water from LFS?  <Yes - make sure you adjust the salinity to match what's in your tank.>  What about bio-filtration then?  <Plan on frequent water changes - 25-50% every other day.>  Since everyone in tank seems to have ich do I even need QT or should I just treat them in main tank?  <I would avoid treating the main tank.> What about Shrimp... can he get ich?  <No, the shrimp cannot get ich. Once you remove the fish you can bring the salinity back up and put the shrimp in the main tank.> Will the low salinity and high temp kill him like I have heard?  <He'll be fine if the salinity is at least 1.020... acclimate slowly. As for temperature - this you can reduce to probably 82F to help speed the life cycle of the remaining parasites and will be fine for the shrimp.>  If I do use QT, I can't put all 3 fish in 10g right? So should I just put Tang since he is the worst and leave others in main tank?  <It's the tang, a damsel, and a clown fish, yes? They should be fine together - leaving any in the main tank will leave hosts for the ich which will not help you or them. Just keep steady on the large water changes in quarantine.>  Freshwater dip first?  <Would help, yes.>  If so, tap water with AmQuel again?  <Make sure the pH and temperature match the tank.> If not, then where do i get freshwater? Are all these questions annoying you yet?  <No.>  Should I keep going with the Kick Ich?  <No... toss that bottle through the front window of the store where you bought it - sorry, rather, just put it in the trash and don't look back.>  Only in the QT tank?  <Copper in a low dose for the tang... make sure you buy a test kit, and avoid chelated copper compounds as most test kits don't work well with this.>  In the main tank too?  <No... if you leave without fish for five or six weeks, you should be fine.>  I have read your opinions on UV sterilizers and... I solemnly swear (holding up right hand, with left hand on Bible) that I will use a QT from now on before putting any new fish in my display tank.  <Good plan.>  If I do this, is a UV sterilizer worth it just as a precaution?  <UV sterilizers aren't bad in themselves, but most folks pump too much water through them to do any good. With a 25 watt unit, the flow rate needs to be 150 GPH to kill protozoans... most folks put them inline with their return so the water doesn't sit in front of the bulb long enough to kill anything. Best to plumb in its own loop with a dedicated pump so that it can be regulated properly.>  What do you think of JEBO products (namely the lighting and UV sterilizers)?  <Have had no experience with these... UV filters are something that shouldn't be skimped on as cheap ones frequently leak or go bad.>  Please help... my girlfriend will kill me if Gus dies (you know the whole cute little Nemo thing - although I do have to admit he is pretty cute). Anyway, please feel free to fill in anything I forgot to ask. I apologize if I am getting too specific and expecting you to fix all my problems, I just want to get things back on track so I can get back to enjoying my tank instead of mourning the loss of my fish (and money).  <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/treatmen.htm > Thank you, thank you, thank you!! Bye fur now, mark <Cheers, J -- > 

New Tank & Tangs PLEASE HELP Hello James (Or Crew) I know you may not always get The same crew member. I am writing for more help. After 3 years of reef keeping And never having a major problem, I am devastated. As you Know I had the Ich outbreak bad. (Here comes the really bad Part) I was very foolish and could not get the fish out to treat Them. There was too much rock, corals, anemones. I have a 10 gal. Quarantine tank. I have always quarantine my fish 3 weeks before introducing them in the main tank. I have not Purchased any new fish in 2 years. All the fish I have are 2 + Years old. My local LFS called me a "Water Change Freak" I change 25% a week, no matter what In My Salt Water ,and 50%- 60% in my Oranda tank.  I went to another local LFS to see what else I could do. They sold me to products that they said were Reef safe. They stated this was my answer. Since I am not a custom to these Problems I took their advice. I reluctantly put these products in my Tank. 1) was called Kick Ich. I had never herd of it, What a waste Of Money. This company should be sued for false advertising! The Second product I bought was because I have more than Ich problems. I noticed my clown fish had white, stringy, tuffs coming from them, As well as my Naso Tang. I was told a fungus or bacteria infection. They sold me another product called Prima Fix. Another waste of money  I do not understand these companies. I think they prey on people Like myself that really care about there fish. I am sure they take That all the way to the bank. Well I had enough!  I am so upset I apologize. Here is were I stand now. My Powder Blue tank, 2 clowns, 1 coral Beauty has died. Each day I am loosing a fish. Last night I pulled a lot Of the rock out. I was able to get the Marine Beta, the 2 Hippo Tangs Out. They are in the Hospital tank. But it is only 10 gal. I had to Put a divider in that. The reason is, the 2 tangs get along great In the 500gal. However a 10 gal. is not roomy enough for them. 1 is 8" the other 6" (Had them 3 years.)  I have 2 pumps and a Bio wheel filter rated for 30- 50 gal on it. I am worried about Oxygen.  My last problem is this. My Naso tang has never had any white spots Or signs of ich. The only problem she has had through this is Very cloudy eyes, she quit eating, and hides a lot. I took off work Today because last night I did a 40% Water change. (Yes 40%) I have R/O Machine. I am currently making more. I have restarted my Euro Reef Skimmer (Med. Stated to turn off) took water readings this Morning.  When I took last night before the change they were Alright. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 25, PH 8.3, Phosphate under 1mg. Salinity 1.023, copper Non Measurable. Temp. 78. My Naso Tang's Eyes have cleared up some what, However still will not eat. This morning when I turned on the lights, I noticed 3 - 4 white stringy type substance streaming from the top of Her back were the fin is. I also notice 2 large spots, like carpet Wear on her. She is active and swimming. The problem I have is I am not sure what she has, and I have had her a long time. She Is over a foot long. Too big for any quarantine tank, plus I think the stress from the small quarters will kill her. I lost enough. Can you help?  <Scott, disregarding this as you mentioned in your last email. James (Salty Dog). >

Vertical swimming mollies Hello, I hope you can help, I have read everything I can find and just don't know what is wrong. I have a 55 gal tank with 1 swordtail, 2 platies, 2 Plecos, 2 Cory cats, 1 Bala shark, 1 painted glass, 2 balloon bellied mollies, 2 black mollies, 2 silver mollies. I do a 25% water change approx every 2-3 weeks. The problem begins with the fish body becoming curved, they swim around shaped like a comma, tail pointing down, like they are dragging their tail end around. <Not good> Within days they are swimming straight but vertically, head up. Then they die within a matter of days. I have had this problem for the last 2 months approx, and have treated with PimaFix numerous times <Worthless> ...and changed water numerous times. I have had my water tested and ammonia, nitrates, ph, everything shows good and safe. Is this a bacteria or a parasite? I have lost many fish to this and have 2 that are swimming this way now. Please help!!!! <Actually very likely a microsporidean endoparasite... You might be able to cure this with the use of Flagyl/Metronidazole. Please see your LFS re this material and administer per directions on the box, inserts. Bob Fenner> 

- Kick the Kick-Ich - We have a 150 gallon reef and fish tank with 285 lbs. of live rock. We have mushrooms, some xenia, trumpet coral, brain, and hammer coral. We have ich on some of the tangs and would like to know if kick-ich is safe for our tank.  <It is so safe that it will kick nothing... don't waste your money on this product and start preparing to get those fish into a proper quarantine for treatment. There is no corner cutting in this endeavor and Kick-Ich will only succeed at separating you from your money and leaving you with fish that are still sick.>  And if not what do you recommend since removing the fish is not possible.  <It is always possible - easiest way is to get a couple of clean garbage cans and drain the tank with a one inch hose [that makes it very quick] into the garbage cans. Stop along the way to remove the rock work and put in the garbage cans. Once the water level is down to a couple of inches, you can catch the fish and remove them to quarantine tanks. The bottom line is that there are no treatments for ich that are either a) selectively non-toxic [kills parasites but not other invertebrates] or b) reef safe. The idea that a compound can kill a protozoan but not kill other bacterial and invertebrate life is craziness... and shame on folks who market such snake oil to folks hoping for better alternatives. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm  > Thanks, Cindy <Cheers, J -- > 

Ammonia... killing off one's biofilter Mr. Fenner, Thanks for all your help in the past. <Welcome> I have been battling ammonia the past couple weeks, and I lost a lot of fish.  <Mmm... what are fishes doing in such water?> I seem to have gotten it under control today. I have had my tank setup for about 6 months. I suddenly got a tremendous (off the scale) ammonia spike that I could do nothing to fix immediately.  <From?> I don't understand. I'm thinking I might have somehow caused new tank syndrome. I did replace my CPR BakPak skimmer with an ETSS reef devil, but the downward spiral started a couple days before that. I did keep my biomedia from the old skimmer and put it in a ventilated container and floated it in my sump. I don't know if that would do any good anyway. <Should have> Somehow, I think I killed off all the beneficial bacteria. <I agree... or overwhelmed the system with proteinaceous material... did someone toss in a bunch of food... might an animal have died and you not caught it?> I was reading all the posts and I think it was from excessive vacuuming of the DSB. it was so dirty though. I wanted your opinion on this observation: Immediately after 2 ammonia spikes settled down, the deep sand bed was covered in a rusty brown substance. That's what I vacuumed away. Is there any correlation between this "stuff" and the ammonia level going back to zero?  <Yes... the brown stuff are likely diatoms, other algae... that need the ammonia to be gone, nitrate (product) to flourish> It's just odd that the sand is white, and my ammonia is through the roof, and then finally the ammonia is gone, and instantly the sand is brown. Well, I still have 1 dogface puffer and 1 striped damsel left, and I don't want to go vacuuming if its gonna finish them off too. I'm really surprised they made it. My ammonia scale only goes to 2, and it was definitely way over that! <Yikes> Also, what do you think about Chemi-clean?  It's supposed "removes disease causing red Cyano bacteria, oxidizes trapped organic sludge and sediment. Chemi Clean also clarifies aquarium water to crystal clear and promotes ideal enzyme balance."  <... not a good idea... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/maralgcidefaqs.htm> I started having the troubles when I added this in conjunction with B-ionic Calcium Buffer, and Ruby Reef Kick Ich. <Oooohhhh... This is the source of your trouble... you actually killed off your nitrifiers...> I think maybe it all had some unknown effect. <Yes, for sure> I read something on your site about one of these effecting pH, which might affect ammonia? Thanks for your time, I read your posts daily. B. Robinson <The "Clean" product... kills microbes... including your beneficial bacteria... the "kick" product does nothing (but flavor food), the B-ionic is a fine product (for pH, alkalinity). More study, less chemicals my friend. Bob Fenner> 

Parasite control products Dear Bob Here is one reply on your site. I know there is a lot of products out there that do not work but are product will remove parasites and is totally reef safe, if you would like some samples to test let us know and we will send them right out. Again thank you for your time. <Will post your notes for others perusal. Unfortunately I have no marine systems up and going at this time. Bob Fenner> Parasite Control Bob, Have you ever used any "reef/invertebrate" safe parasite control products that were effective in eliminating/control marine ich? <Have tested them a bit... myself... and have many anecdotal reports from others...> The products that I am referring to specifically (based on the manufacturer's literature) are: (1) Chem-Marin Stop Parasites (2) Kick-Ich Both of those products are touted as being effective in Ich removal and safe for use in a reef aquarium with inverts and coral. <Yes, I know of these claims> Your experience or thoughts on the subject and these products would be appreciated.. Thanks, Rocky Phillips <Do know of other credible users that assert success using both of these... however, don't consider them completely safe or effective myself. Bob Fenner>

Treating Marine parasites Anthony, thanks for your thoughts; I agree that FW and formalin dips can be very effective; what I meant to say was that by "wasting" that first week relying on Kick-Ich, the fish are so weakened that they are past the point of no return. <ahh... my fault. I misunderstood... but do agree that a lost week can be fatal> At least, this is what appears to be the case; I had 4 instances where the fish looked ok, tolerated the dip, but expired a day later; <yes... and it brings up a good point. FW dips are no more sever (less actually) than a long-term medicated bath. A properly conducted FW dip is a safe and effective measure and aquarists can rest assured that any fish that does not survive a single 5 minute FW dip was not likely to survive anyway> others (same species, same tank) pulled and dipped the first day symptoms noted, recovered. I like the FW dips, have little experience with formalin, but FW still makes me nervous sometimes. <understood... its natural to be nervous about the FW. Little worries with formalin though. Even small scaled species tolerate Formalin (unlike Copper, Malachite, Methylene blue, etc)> Are there species less  tolerant, with respect to both? Steve. <there are a handful of relatively uncommon fishes sensitive to FW. A few popular ones too. Be careful with very small and small scaled fishes like blennies, gobies, Chromis, Firefish... as well as highats/drumfish/croakers, many wrasses and Tuskfish (jumpers). Most of the common and hardy species benefit by FW dips though (tangs, damsels and clowns, triggers, groupers, most angels, etc). Best regards, Anthony>

Fish Disease First of let me congratulate you on the wonderful website and book (CMA). It has been a wonderful source of information for me/us! (the wife and myself) <Ah, glad we're finally meeting. Good to be of service.> This is long; I probably should have emailed a long time ago, but I keep foolishly thinking I can handle this on my own. <Okay> I don't want to bore you with details, but in reading some FAQs I have seen that you often need them. So here we go: 90 Gal with overflow, 100# Fiji live rock, standard UV lighting (40W actinic, 40W full spectrum, 10,000K = 80W total), Sump, protein skimmer, spg 1.022 - 1.023, T 81 - 82, ammonia, etc. OK (0). 2 Sally Lightfoots, 6 or so blue-legged hermits, and 4 or so red-legged hermits, 20 or so turbo snails. I have learned my lesson regarding quarantining!!!, but here goes the ongoing dilemma: I bought two beautiful Heniochus (Heniochus?). The bag they were in made them appear blurry, so I didn't notice until after acclimating them. However, the instant I put them in the tank I saw white spots all over them both. I did not see this in the fish store because the lighting was very poor. No, I stupidly did not quarantine them, and no, I stupidly did not net them out immediately. I thought I could nurse them to health. After all, they ate well at the LFS, their color was good, they ate well in our tank, and they socialized with the other fish well. <Yikes...>> First I tried Melafix for one week . . . to no avail. In retrospect is probably hurt: since I had to turn off the carbon and protein skimmer, the ammonia crept up to 0.25 ppm. Plus the two Heniochus gave the white spots (ich, Amyloodinium, velvet -- not sure still) to all the other fish in the tank (two false Percula clownfish, and one Blue (Regal) Tang). The LFS (a different one!) recommended a skunk cleaner shrimp, so one was added. He worked as hard as he could cleaning the fish . . . but by week two, one of the Heniochus and one Percula were dead. Both had white areas (not spots anymore) on them, and shredded fins. However, they both ate their Prime Reef dinner the night before as usual. By week three, one more (the last) Heniochus and the last Percula were dead. Similar death, eating heartily the night before with shredded fins. The one fish I expected to die first, the Blue Tang, is still alive! I don't understand. He, too, has white areas on his lower half. He would go through 2-3 days of appearing perfectly healthy to having white areas and white spots 2-3 days later. I had tried to catch the Tang the entire time, but he has proven a worthy opponent in a 90 gal. The LFS informed me that the fiasco would soon end.  <How?> Within two weeks, the Blue Tang would either be dead or he would have beaten the infection. If I couldn't catch him, feed him well and simply wait. So I got a Sailfin Tang and put him in the quarantine tank, planning to quarantine him for 2-3 weeks, maybe more to allow the main tank to "settle." By then, this mess would be over. <... takes more time...> I read somewhere that in order to kill off the free-floating pathogens (Amyloodinium was the suspected culprit), it is necessary to remove their vector for three weeks, and raise the temperature of the tank to 86-90. So I made a last ditch effort to catch the Blue Tang and I was successful! So here I have a 10 gal quarantine tank and two tangs in it! The main tank is now devoid of fish, only the 2 sallies, skunk shrimp, hermits and snails. I turned off the fan that cools the sump water so it is about 85-86 degrees, and slowly decreased the spg to 1.019. The two tangs appeared to be getting along, so felt that this arrangement could last for three weeks. I treated the q-tank with copper and started 1-2 gal water changes every other day. Their diet consists of bunches of algae from the main tank on a clip, <Mmm, don't do this... the resting stages of the parasite are being moved to their (reservoir) hosts... in "quarantine"> flakes in the morning, medicated food in the early evenings, and vitamin-soaked brine shrimp or prime reef at night. I also got a Coralife 9W UV sterilizer for the main tank during this time as well. The Blue Tang is finally looking better. It has been just over two weeks since putting him in the q-tank. Today I noticed the anal fins on both tangs are starting to look a bit tattered. It seems as if they might be fighting when I am not looking. Questions: 1) I know to quarantine from now on. But what do you think the initial microorganism was? What could I have done differently besides quarantining initially? <Likely Cryptocaryon irritans... saltwater ich...> 2) Should I let the two tangs continue in the q-tank for the last 4 days? Or should I get them into the main tank now? I hope having the extra room will allow them to leave each other alone . . . if that is what is happening. <I would allow the copper to run down and leave them in the ten for another two weeks> Thank you so much for putting up with my lengthy email, and my lack of timeliness in requesting help. Yours truly, John Michael, Conscientious Marine Aquarist Wannabe <The title is concurrent with knowledge, actions... Bob Fenner>

What do next? Part II (ineffective ich treatment) I failed to mention that the "Stop Parasite" product I mentioned previously is to help us get rid of ich in our tank. We introduced it into our tank by buying live rock with it infested all over it. Of course we didn't know until after the fact. Now we can't seem to rid of the problem.  <Have you read over our site re this parasite, it's treatment? WetWebMedia.com> Or should I say the white spots only show up on the fins of our trigger but I noticed last night that our dog faced puffer (my fave) now how two white spots on her eye and couple on her fins. What to do???? Should I did her now or am I paranoid. We have done the r/o dip in the past on the trigger. Sorry this is so long. I do value your opinion. Thanks so much! <Do read through, starting here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm I would develop a long-term plan for eradicating this pest or striking a balance in your system... using real products to rid the hosts of the ich. Bob Fenner> Angie

Ich treatment: Is Ruby Reef Hydroplex safe (5/29/04) Is Ruby Reef Hydroplex safe to use on a Porcupine Puffer? < I am not familiar with that medication/treatment ....sorry. I did do a bit of research for you and came up with no helpful information. The contents are not listed and there is no mention of contraindications for certain fish species. I would suggest either contacting the manufacturer or instead using one of the other known ich remedies like a pH & temp adjusted fresh water dip for 7 to 8 min and up to 30 if the fish is comfortable and tolerating the dip. Any signs of distress the fish needs to be removed immediately. Never leave the fish un attended. In addition hyposalinity, lowering the main tank to a specific gravity of 1.010 for 4 to 6 weeks. Some believe that lacing food with garlic preparations is helpful. Its effectiveness is controversial but certainly is not harmful.> He has ich and needs some medicated fresh water dips.  How often and for how long should I do this? < there is information on freshwater dips and hyposalinity here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm ..... He is living in the main tank by himself right now.   My clown is in a hospital tank with CopperSafe.  Is this okay for the clown?  <Never mix medications unless the manufacturer instructions tell you differently. I did a 50% water change to my 80 gallon main tank. < 80g will not be sufficient for you Puffer long term. You will need at least 100g or more> The temp is 80 and the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are zero. The specific gravity is 1.019. pH is 8.3. I have read your articles already for about one hour.  I got tired of looking for my answers. <Sorry > I hope you don't mind me asking you directly. <No problem at all> Please advise. < In addition biological cleaners are helpful ....cleaner shrimp (the best Lysmata amboinensis) and maybe a couple of cleaner gobies (Gobiosoma spp.) these will help remove the parasites, and make the fish livestock "feel" a lot better. Thank you! Irene. < Your most welcome, Leslie >

Feedback on Aquapharm Pro Series Cure Ich Product Hi again! <Hello> Thanks a bunch for all your help.  I'm currently have a hyposalinity QT tank set up for my parrotfish, batfish, and boxfish.  They're temporarily in a rather small tank.  I plan to move them to a bigger one so as to house all the remaining fishes in my display tank.  Unfortunately, the sailfin tang's condition deteriorated and didn't make it pass the FW dip which was frustrating since I had him since he was li'l guy!!!  :-( I do however have a question regarding AquaPharm's Pro Series Cure Ich medication.  Have any of you used it? <Mmm, no... this is a product of: http://www.aquapharm-india.com/ and not something not listed by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals I take it> How effective was it in getting rid of the ich?  Also, it doesn't state what its ingredients are, just that it doesn't contain copper.  It also claims that it is safe for invertebrates, and corals. <Umm... ingredients not listed... safe for non-vertebrates... Not a possibility>   (I've attached what's printed on the bottle label.)  But when I do use it, the anemones tend to shrink for the first few days. <Uhh, what do you think?> Does this mean that it's a temporary occurrence? <Life itself is temporary... I would NOT use this product>   Should I continue to use this medication in my QT tank for the infected fishes? <I would NOT. Look for a REAL product.> They're pretty much clear of clear but I'm going to wait for another 4 weeks before I put them back into the display tank, that is, if I can catch the remaining fishes in the display tank.  They're pretty slippery li'l guys to catch!! It would be much appreciated if you could let me know of any feedback about its usage. <Study my friend... very likely the visible stages have just cycled off... perhaps with the general poisoning of this product involved... they'll be back> Also, according to the site, I should increase the temperature of the display tank to speed up the lifecycle of the ich.  I'm currently using 2 fans on top of my display tank.  It's usually around 26 - 27 degrees and the plants and anemones are doing well.  But I was told that anything higher than those temperatures, the plants will suffer.  Is that true?  If so, what should I do?  Take out the plants too? <Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the Related Articles and FAQs files (linked, in blue, at top) until you understand what you're up to here> As for the harlequin shrimp, when I feed them starfish, would I have to QT the small red starfishes too to avoid bringing ich into the system? <Study> If so, would it have an adverse effect on the starfishes if I put them in with the others in the QT tank which is currently in hyposalinity. <The hyposalinity will NOT eliminate the Cryptocaryon by itself...> Btw, I also have tank containing a few Pufferfishes, 1 dogface puffer, 3 white spotted puffers (s, m, l sizes), 1 other puffer (but I don't know the English name for it), 1 scorpionfish.  So far the fishes get along fine. The scorpionfish is usually next to the sponge filters whereas the largest of the white spotted puffer just sits at the bottom of the tank until a piece of food comes his way.  However, since the puffers are very aggressive during feeding time, the li'l ones usually miss out on the bits of shrimps that I give as the larger ones keep stealing them away from the li'l ones.  Is this behavior normal? <Yes. You may have to feed the smaller individual especially, perhaps move it to other quarters.>   When I feed the scorpion live freshwater fish, the largest of the white spotted puffer keeps catching them for himself!!  So......... I do wonder if the scorpion ends up eating at all.  Any suggestions? Thanks again.    Still trying, Lisa <You're doing fine thus far... just need to apply yourself, learn a bit more> Pro Series  Cure Ich? safe for corals and invertebrates is a scientifically formulated medication for the control of marine ich (white spot).  It contains no copper and it is safe for corals, invertebrates and delicate fish and will not damage the biological filter.   Cure Ich? also eliminates the free swimming parasites that feed on the fish and end up leaving an open wound which eventually cause a bacterial infection. Symptoms may include any white spots, body fungus, visible sores or wounds, discoloration, fish rubbing against objects, loss of appetite and increased respiration. Cure Ich? is also a treatment of Velvet, Coral fish disease (Oodinium), Slimy skin disease (Brooklynella), Fin and tail rot, Mouth fungus (Flexibacter Columnaris). <And balding, dementia and what ails you... You've been swindled. Bob Fenner>

Pimafix and protein skimming Hi everyone. Hope you are doing well. <And you> I have a question that has to do with my clownfish. I have a ocellaris clown that is eating well and active. He is showing signs of fin rot on his dorsal and I would like to introduce Pimafix to the system. Have had very good results with this in my freshwater system. On the Pimafix bottle it states that the protein skimmer may have to be turned off during treatment. Why is that? Does protein skimming interfere with the effectiveness of Pimafix or does it induce extreme foaming of the skimmer? <The latter. Skimming removes this "remedy" quickly. Bob Fenner> Thank you very much for your time. D.B.

Kent Marine RxP Ich in with Inverts well, I've had a recent outbreak of ick in my tank because when I added by protein skimmer, I rearranged the tank and readjusted the heater. the tank went from 76 to approx 73, fairly quickly...  <yes...temperature drops are a surefire way to incite Ich on marine fishes> I noticed it after I saw my hippo tang <AKA Ich magnets...hehe> freaking out (lost all color, and swimming crazily), and checked all the levels, and noticed the temp dropped. I slowly brought it back up - and now I see little white spots on him (hippo tang), my purple tang, and my coral beauty. (or, at least this is what I think caused it)... no new fish, or anything like that. Water quality is great... ammonia 0, salinity 1.022, nitrate 0, nitrite <10, ph 8.3, & just did a 20% water change last Thursday..... temp in tank is 77 degrees. I've treated the tank with Greenex for a week now - seemed to get better, but this morning I noticed more. <small daily siphoning of water from tank bottom is very helpful for effecting a cure...do consider for a week or more as well> I'm at a loss. I have live rock (6 pounds) as well as a choc. chip star, and 2 hermit crabs. Supposedly the RxP is really good, and won't harm inverts (except for the starfish, I am going to put him in a makeshift holding tank until the RxP is out). <honestly not thrilled with that idea> My quarantine tank had Cupramine in it. <and you are worried about the coral beauty with Copper? yes a bit, but the other fish would benefit by a proper medication treatment in Quarantine> Would you suggest taking all the sick fish out - and just treating them with copper? I've read that the ick can get itself in the gravel, etc... so it is good to treat the main tank.  <please no, do NOT treat the main tank.. treat in a bare bottomed quarantine tank... calcareous media is never to be coppered if used with invertebrates. It will be absorbed into the rock, sand, shell, etc. By putting fish in a proper 4-week quarantine...the tank parasites will be reduced/die without a viable host> I've also read that dropping salinity to 1.017 <possibly helpful> and temp up to 80 will also help  <more tricky and less effective> - but I've heard that tangs don't appreciate the lower salinity. <not true...they are quite tolerant> Or.... should I take out all the inverts, and treat the main tank with Cupramine? Your thoughts are always very accepted - I love your book. You have some amazing pictures in there, well worth the $$.... ~Bill <agreed...with regards, Anthony Calfo>

Kent Marine RxP Quick question - What are your thoughts on treating ick with Kent Marine's RxP product. My local store swears by it.. <Don't have any personal experience. Have heard the widest range of results second hand... from great to a sham. I'm still sticking with proven copper compound and environmental technology... if such parasites make it past dip/bath, quarantine procedures. Bob Fenner> ~Bill

Great need: sick fish Hi Bob <WWM crew member Anthony Calfo in your service> Over the last week I've lost 2 fish, some of them appeared to have white spot and others some fungus. I have been treating them with Melafix  <a mildly effective tonic if at all. I like the idea of homeopathic treatment, but more as prevention. Doubtful or dangerous to depend on such unproven treatments when a full blown infection occurs. Few if any medicants can treat such physiologically and pathogenically different organisms such as fungus, parasites and bacteria equally.>  but it didn't work,  <a common experience and tribute to good marketing... again... I like such products for prevention at best. Have used this product before and rather liked it (with newly imported fishes)> couldn't treat them with copper as I had coral in my tank and had no hospital tank. <for the investment in money and lives in your tank, please make the $100 or less investment in a QT tank a priority: a simple 10 gall, glass canopy, sponge filter and heater. That's it, short and sweet. At a garage sale, it might cost $20> I've tested for signs to help me find the problem as my PH is 86 and my No2 is on yellow <the pH is not a problem at 8.6 by day and not sure what yellow is on your test kit for No2... ppm needed> I've been using Myxazin (Maracyn?) for 2 days , increased the water temp to 38 degrees as advised by my local marine fish store and now the rest of my fish seem also sick and not well. <wow...way to warm, especially if there is a bacterial condition involved. The inverts don't mind?> I took the 2 of my fish to a friend who has a hospital tank treating them wit copper but what can I do now with the rest of the fish who are now starting to show symptoms. <resume normal aquarium conditions (temp, salinity, etc) slowly and continue to maintain good water quality (water changes, aggressive protein skimming... you do have a stable temp too don't you? Temperature fluctuations are VERY bad. No more and 1c change> Should I continue with Myxazin or go back to Melafix? <not Melafix.. and I'm not sure if you need "Myxazin" either. Please refer to a good book on fish diseases like Noga or Untergasser and get a correct identification of the pathogen(s). Then we can see about which medications to use. Also review the articles, pictures and FAQs in our disease archives here on WWM at: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/maintenance/index.htm look down the page for appropriate links> and if I do change, how long should I wait before administering the other? Also how could I get all these diseases out of my tank before putting the healthy ones back? <by running the tank without a new fish for 4 or more weeks and then only bring in fish that have been properly quarantined for four weeks themselves in separate hospital tanks> I don't know what else to look for and what to do Please help me????? David <please do read through the archives my friend... much direction in wisdom on those pages. Best regards, Anthony>

Disease I was wondering if you had any experience with medication Kick-Ich?  <a dubious remedy at best> It says it is safe for invertebrates, and reef safe.  <it always amazes me how such products claim to be able to kill invertebrate pathogens but not harm desirable invertebrates (microfauna, plankton, corals, etc.)> I had an out break of ich and am trying to get rid of it without much luck. Thanks Pat P.S. I am learning so much from this site ,but found it a little to late. <indeed, the best course of action is to remove your fish to a bare bottomed quarantine tank where they will stay for 4 weeks. The display will run fallow for that time and not require any harmful medication in the absence of viable hosts. Freshwater dips and copper or Formalin can easily cure most common infections in QT. Treating in the display tank is never an option in my opinion. You only other option would be to net the fish from the display for freshwater dips daily... still parasites in the tank though that can find a host. Please do keep studying, sharing, and enjoying the hobby! Best regards, Anthony>

PROBIOTICS Bob: Subject product has been recommended as being effective in Ich prevention. <Really? By whom?> I tried it after an attack upon my marine fish had commenced and it did not help. It is supposed to be a preventive, but I wonder how effective it is for that as well? Have you any experience with this good bacteria fighting the bad supposedly? Thanks, Stephen Pace <No experience. I took a look on the Net re... and don't really see its application... particularly for an aquatic protozoan parasite... Please see our root web: www.WetWebMedia.com regarding. Bob Fenner>

Did Melafix hurt my clownfish? Hi Bob (or staff). Sorry to bother y'all, but it's daytime (when most people work) and I figure I won't get much help with this on the 911 chat until later, so I'm writing you. <Someone's here most any time> I've got a 30gal saltwater tank with a damsel fish and a coral beauty that tend to bully other fish, <I'll bet... this is too small a "world". Too crowded.> but I didn't realize this until I introduced a percula clown into my tank about a month ago. The clown was fine at first, eating regularly and swimming in most areas of the tank. But he has since been lodging himself in one corner at the top, acting as if afraid to eat since last Friday, kind of swimming sideways. So I put him in a QT 3 days ago and he got to swimming around again, although not eating. Big dummy that I am, I added 1/2 tsp of Melafix for 2 days, hoping he'd overcome his stress. (Of course, I just now got around to reading in The Conscientious Marine Aquarist that chemical treatments are the last option you want to choose for a clownfish because they're sensitive to the same toxins as their host anemone). Now, he's barely moving, sitting on the bottom of the tank. The water tests good and the temp's steady at 76 degrees. I don't have a light for the QT, so I've been leaving the room light on for a few hours a day, although I'm uncertain as to whether he needs darkness to recuperate. Do you have any suggestions or advice? <Just to have "time go by" for the Clown. It should recover. And to look into a larger system if you want to keep the Coral Beauty (Dwarf Angel) with all. Bob Fenner> Thanks in advance for your help, Heather Jacobs

Re: Did Melafix hurt my clownfish? Thank you very much, but I'm afraid time won't heal whatever has been done. I would think he was dead already because he's not moving; however, I can see his mouth still moving enough to take in oxygen. Do you suggest light or no light for his recuperation?  <Less to no light> It doesn't say which in the book. And did the Melafix hurt him? <Perhaps... I saw your query, comments on WWF... this material did not likely help> Or is he just suffering from stress (or some unknown disease, perhaps)? <Stress in the larger sense... being harassed, moved about... very trying metabolically, psychologically. Bob Fenner>

Ruby Reef Kick Ich Hello, Is Ruby Reef Kick Ich really safe for 'all' invertebrates and fish? <I did a small test with this product and it works ok for Ich, but I tried it in a quarantine tank as an experiment so I cannot say if it is safe for invertebrates.> We have a 72 gallon tank with 90 lbs of live rock. It is about 3 months old and we have recently started adding fish/corals, a couple of weeks ago. Currently we have several snails, hermit crabs, an emerald green crab, burgundy Linckia, cleaner shrimp, powder brown tang, green Chromis, a new bi-color blenny and bubble, candy, and frog spawn corals (one each). We were away for 4 days and came home to a real mess after using a feeder cube. There is brown algae everywhere and our tang had a bit of ich on him. Today the blenny and 2 of the Chromis do too. We did not have a hospital tank at first so none were quarantined (lesson learned). <A big mistake which you and your fish are now paying for.> My question is, can we safely use the Kick Ich with the starfish/corals? <I would be extremely reluctant to do this.> We've read quite a bit about using garlic to combat ich and would like to try that as a natural alternative to copper. Is it true that you can feed them chopped fresh garlic or would the oil be better? <I would use a commercially prepared extract.> We could try and quarantine the fish but they'll be tough to catch because of all the hiding spots in the LR. Any advice would be most welcome. <Please read from www.WetWebMedia.com regarding treating parasitic infestations, fallowing a tank, proper set up and use of a quarantine tank, etc.> Thanks, C & J <Good luck! -Steven Pro>

Butterflies Aren't Free (Cont'd.) Thanks for the info... <Our pleasure-that's why we're here!> So how does one know if they are paying $39 for "Pepper Sauce" as opposed for a viable treatment (re: REEF SAFE KICK ICK) ???? Is there a better treatment for 'the itch' or 'ick' whatever you call it? <If you are indeed certain that ich is the malady that you're dealing with, then I'd use (in a separate treatment tank) a proven, "mainstream" cure, such as copper sulphate, properly administered and monitored for concentration.> The only signs my butterflies have is that they rub themselves against the rocks... they may have slight imperfections like a few missing scales behind the gills... but this is also where they are rubbing themselves.  So, from what I can see... all signs point to some sort of skin irritation /itchiness??? <Well- itching is an ich symptom, but there are other symptoms to this illness as well. In the absence of signs, it could even be a different parasite of some sort. You really need to check the FAQ's on marine parasites on the wetwebmedia.com site for more info. than I can touch on here regarding the identification and treatment of parasitic conditions> My water has been tested on average twice a week and I have just bought my own water test kit.  My test last night showed a pH of 8.2-8.3, 0 nitrites, ammonia level was pretty close to 0 (I need to cut back my twice a week frozen shrimp feedings, as it is not all consumed), and my nitrates were between 0 and 4.From what I have read, this is a pretty good test... and as mentioned before, I can get the ammonia back to  zero with feeding more carefully. <I am concerned about the ammonia reading- it really should be completely undetectable on a hobbyist-grade test kit...You are correct in re-visiting your husbandry techniques...and do try a different test kit to confirm your results> So, should I stick to treating my one surviving butterfly with this KICK ICK?  He does rub on the rock, but has virtually no scales missing and no cuts... he is the last 'healthy' one??? <I really don't like this product...but that's just me, of course. I'd make a positive ID on the condition that you're dealing with, and treat accordingly> This guy is in my 20 gallon doctor tank alone. <Good procedure> Should I do anything with my main tank? Do you think my main tank might be carrying something??? Even though my two gobies, two clowns, and my boxfish are doing fine? <If you are dealing with a contagious disease, such as ich, you really need to get everyone out for observation/treatment (even if all inhabitants don't show signs), let the main system go "fallow" for about a month...If it is ich that's in your tank, you must take aggressive steps to treat it, IMO> What's a better ICK/ITCH medication?? <I like copper sulphate for ich, as mentioned above> I am fully expecting my remaining butterfly to do ok... should I grab another butterfly and pair them up after he has been quarantined??? <That can work, but there can be some aggressive behaviour between the two fish on introduction> The only other thing I can think of is my Coral Banded Shrimp getting nasty with my butterflies as they do bother him in hopes that the CBS will clean them.  On the other hand, the CBS doesn't bother my mandarin goby that will sleep right in front of him... and the CBS hasn't bothered my Cleaner Shrimp either. <Hey- you never know...> I guess the butterfly is a fairly cheap fish that I don't mind experimenting with, but I don't want to risk the rest of my tank. Opinion??? Thanks guys! Dave <Well, Dave- I encourage you to keep trying, but do study their needs and prepare for them. Good luck!  Scott F.>

Parasite control products Dear Bob Here is one reply on your site. I know there is a lot of products out there that do not work but are product will remove parasites and is totally reef safe, if you would like some samples to test let us know and we will send them right out. Again thank you for your time. <Will post your notes for others perusal. Unfortunately I have no marine systems up and going at this time. Bob Fenner> Parasite Control Bob, Have you ever used any "reef/invertebrate" safe parasite control products that were effective in eliminating/control marine ich? <Have tested them a bit... myself... and have many anecdotal reports from others...> The products that I am referring to specifically (based on the manufacturer's literature) are: (1) Chem-Marin Stop Parasites (2) Kick-Ich Both of those products are touted as being effective in Ich removal and safe for use in a reef aquarium with inverts and coral. <Yes, I know of these claims> Your experience or thoughts on the subject and these products would be appreciated.. Thanks, Rocky Phillips <Do know of other credible users that assert success using both of these... however, don't consider them completely safe or effective myself. Bob Fenner>

Kent RxP (The backward state of aquarium "medicines") Hi,    Thanks in advance for all your advice.  I was wondering if you'd had any experience with the product Kent RxP for the treatment of saltwater ick?  It claims to be reef safe but I don't like putting anything unknown in the tank.   <It's neither entirely reef safe, nor consistently effective. Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/med.htm and beyond. For others input I would consult the hobbyist BB's here>    I have a reef tank with one sick Kole tang (Cryptocaryon irritans).  I can't tear down the tank without destroying quite a bit of coral growth.  I have lowered the salinity to about 1.020 and raised the temperature to 82F and there seems to be no change.  All other tank parameters are at optimal levels.      I have 2 G. oceanops, 2 L. amboinensis, 1 L. wurdemanni and 1 L. debelius for cleaner species.  The tang presented to the L. amboinensis but they just seemed to ignore him.  The tang doesn't seem to notice the gobies and the other shrimp are pretty secretive and don't seem to exhibit much cleaning behavior.    Other than a complete teardown and copper treatment is there anything else I could do to help the fish in this tank? <Mmm, depending on the pathogenicity of this infestation, circumstance of the setting, and your perception of your own tolerance for ongoing problems (as with the introduction of new fish/es), I'd go the removal of hosts route... as detailed on WWM> I've read through the FAQs and garlic seems to be suggested but I can't tell if this is preventative or curative. <At best the former>   Other website have suggested 3-5 ppm vitamin C in the water as an immunostimulant.  Any truth to that? <Some... not much IME>    Incidentally and on a completely different note, where is most marine pharmacology studied?  Is it at academic institutions or do companies such as Aquarium Pharmaceuticals actually do any research on fish disease?  I ask because I'm currently finishing a PhD in medicinal chemistry and since I enjoy aquariums so much was wondering if there is any place a person with my background might fit it. <Some of both. There are noted authors (e.g. Ed Noga), who are engaged continuously in such research, and others more sporadically (there are quarterlies of "fish, aquatic disease" journals... where you could become familiar with the players, locations of this work... But/however, the majority of what passes as pet-fishing index medicus reveals a long-standing "anecdotal" prescription of "this and that" homeopathic sorts of cures, testing (not scientific experimentation)... and a funny/scary large proportion of "medicines" on the market are outright frauds... Amazing to me... but I suspect with the "killing off" of so much of the customer base (the "average" hobbyist stays in the interest less than a year) the pepper sauce, sugar solution sales folks can/do get away with this. Sadly. Perhaps you can/will be a force in reversing this trend. Bob Fenner> Thanks again for the help. Erik Jorvig

Re: medications Can I use re-vive in with my live rock and corals to help my fish get well. Then Kick-ich to follow up?  I am pretty sure that is the name of the stuff I ordered.  I also have some shrimp in the tank. <I don't recommend either of these products. If you have parasites, like ick, velvet, etc. please follow the quarantine procedures and copper treatment at WetWebMedia.com and send the kick-ick and revive back unopened.  You will need to catch your fish and treat them with copper in a separate quarantine tank. Get a good copper test kit. Your main tank will need to be free of fish for at least one month, preferably longer. Using these snake oils will only prolong your and your fish' agony and kill them in the long run. PLEASE do check out the quarantine pages at WWM. Search "quarantine" and "copper" at the google search engine at the bottom of WetWebMedia.com.  Much to do my friend!  Craig>

"Reef Safe" Medications? Hi, I'm wondering if there are any meds for gill flukes, velvet or bacterial infections  that are safe to use with inverts, live rock and bio filtration? So far I was only able to find reef-safe meds for Ich...Thank you, Luke <Well, Luke, IMO, there are really no 100% "reef safe" medications for these diseases. Any substance that can allegedly target just a disease without collateral damage to physiologically similar, yet beneficial creatures, seems suspect, at the least. Really, for the benefit of all of the animals we keep, disease treatment using medications should only occur in a separate hospital tank. It allows better control, closer monitoring opportunity, and no prospect of damaging desirable animals. Just my 2 cents on the subject! Scott F>

No Question But A Confirmation. Ruby Reef's Kick-Ich I thoroughly enjoy your site and the information. <Me too> A number of references have been made regarding Ruby Reef's Kick-Ich.  My experience with the product has also not been good. <It's a sham> There seems to be a significant "unexplained" mortality rate when using this product. Fish that have no visible signs of ich are found floating within 12 hours of dosage even though all directions are carefully followed. Slime slothing [sloughing] was witnessed in most of the fish. <You would observe the same results from pouring in most any kitchen food product... vinegar, mustard...> The fish become lethargic for a period of time, followed by air gulping even though water quality is good and there are no ammonia traces, at the same time, fish with swim bladders seem to lose control of buoyancy, become weaker and die. <Yes> Transfer of the fish to another system void of the "medication" does not seem to help, however it may if the fish are transferred as soon as any type of behavior change is noted.  <Good descriptions> Fish with ich show no signs of improvement but worse than that they seem to attract the ich like magnets during the secondary bloom. <I concur> At the end of the treatment cycle when the protein skimmer is turned back on cups and cups of effluent are generated even though Nitrate, nitrite levels are imperceptible. This may be a bacteria bloom in the skimmer itself however its more likely a reaction between the product and the skimmer bacteria.  John <You[r] and I's [my] observations agree... the product is worse than worthless... as it leads people to believe they're actually "doing something" of value, helping their livestock. Bob Fenner>

Lack of knowledge, phony medicines, Crypt I have a Lionfish and a Foxface Fish in a 75g tank. All of the parameters are fine. I've been trying to kick some sort of parasite or ich out of my tank. I am losing the battle. <... are you inferring you've been treating the main tank with some sort of chemical regimen? Not smart> I've already lost my Kole Tang and Basslet Fish. I've been using Rally and Kick Ich with no positive results. <These products are worst than worthless... they are toxic placebos concerning parasite treatment> I've even aerated the tank as much as possible to help the fish breathe and I am currently losing the battle. I even tried to over medicate the tank to help with it but, it is not working. <...> I am to the point I am going to abandon my main 75g tank and move the remaining inhabitants, Foxface Fish and live rock into a 10g tank. <Oh, good idea> What do I need to do to the main tank to get rid of ich and the parasites once the inhabitants have been removed? After I moving the occupants should I do a water change and leave it empty? All medications have not helped my fight against the parasite/Ich. Help <Uhh, time to study, then act. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the Related Articles and FAQs (linked, in blue, at top). Bob Fenner>

Hippo Tang scratching, Kick Ich product SCAM, Good Day <Hello> Well, my Hippo tang is scratching persistently and my yellow tang is   scratching now.  I knew I should have waited about the Kick Ich -- that is  one $31.00 lesson I learned. <This product... how many more times do I have to state this?... is an outright SCAM... there are NO reef safe anti-Cryptocaryon cures... NONE... What leads people to believe there could be? What would select this protozoan and yet leave others be? Arggggh!>   I have a 20 gallon QT tank I am going to set  up today.   Should I use 10 gallons of water from my tank and 10 gallons of  fresh saltwater or should all 20 gallons be fresh saltwater since I do not know  what is going on in my tank? <I would use the current aquarium water... less stress, comes with beneficial microbes... the ich will be killed...> My yellow tangs cloudy eye has healed, but he  still has the large brown spots on him and his lips seem to have a little  brownish color around them today.  With what and how should I treat my fish  once I get them into the QT tank?  All your help is greatly  appreciated. Sherry <... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked files (in blue, above) where you lead yourself... QUICKLY... and act with knowledge. Bob Fenner>

Melafix??? Another quick question - have you heard of/recommend Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Melafix product? I have had a healthy respect of their products in the past, but am hesitant to add it to the tank even though they strongly claim it WILL NOT HARM EITHER THE BIOLOGICAL FILTER OR INVERTS. Just wanting to get some info before I have to use it. Thanks >> Have not used the product, but have chatted with folks who can be trusted about the product... To me it seems useful mainly as a disinfectant... possibly of use for damaged animals due to physical traumas... Wouldn't count on it to "cure" an infectious or parasitic disease. Bob Fenner

One last ick related question Bob, The RxP has not worked, and I am now coppering the tank (Coppersafe), it is a 160 gal tank, I have removed the live rock (per your recommendation), I have put in the equivalent of treating 100 gallons. Local suppliers (some), claim that large angels (Queen, French, Blue face), cannot take the copper. My question is this true? Is a full dose safe for these fish, and necessary? I know if I don't treat, they will die. Thanks, Tom >> Angels, among other fishes, "don't appreciate" copper much... but they are by far not the touchiest... and the way copper works... if it is not utilized at full dosage (0.2-0.3ppm free cupric ion), you're wasting your time, and just slowly poisoning your livestock... Do treat them as per the manufacturer of your copper solution's recommendations.... Bob Fenner

RXP Bob, My fish troubles continue. Now I have a full blown velvet outbreak. I have some Kent RXP on the way but it says it is not recommended for lionfish, do you know anything about this product. Also what do I need for a barebones hospital tank for the lion, will I do more damage by moving him, how long should he stay in there, what would I treat him with, etc etc etc. Cheers, Scott  >> Yikes, Scotter. Do take the time to make the long read over the articles, FAQs, others opinions on how to proceed on these issues stored on the site: Home Page  I am decidedly not a big fan of pepper-sauce "treatments"... but there are workable methods... as detailed... follow the Marine Index at the WWM site... you will know. Bob Fenner

Re: RXP Bob, You have won me on quarantine tanks. I have managed to borrow a 15g tank that now houses my lion while I am dosing with RXP. <Ah, good on the quarantine> I might even set it up in the kids room with a BioWheel or something similar. Would this tank handle say 2 Chromis and a damsel and the occasional new fish on quarantine duty, <Yes, but not with the Lionfish present if it can swallow same...> what about sand on the bottom. <Not unless the animals involved require it... better to use the BioWheel, and periodic water changes from your main system to return water quality to center... If sand, live rock are needed, better to place them in a glass dish (like for burrowing wrasses let's say), to facilitate removal... otherwise these materials change water chemistry, absorb medications> Also have you any thoughts on vitamin c for ich control. <Doesn't work...>  And how long should a new fish spend in the q tank  <Depends on species, condition... Take a look (again) at quarantine, acclimation materials posted on site: Home Page > and is necessary to dose with copper every time a new fish goes in there. <Once again, this depends on the species involved and their apparent health... in general, no... I would freshwater, pH adjusted dip new fishes... then place them in quarantine for observation and "hardening" for the desired/requisite period of time, and engage copper treatments (probably needing to be tested and re-applied daily...> Cheers, Scott 

Never Ending Ich Dear Bob, I have been battling ich is my 40gal SW tank for over 10 months. After several unsuccessful invert-safe treatments, <Which we know don't work... Do wish we could expose the crooks (yes, that's what these charlatans are) that hawk the hot sauce, sugar and garlic "remedies" as "ich et al. cure-alls... You, I know who these folks, manufacturers, products are... They're likely single-handedly responsible for the loss of more hobbyists (let alone livestock mortality) than any other cause> I desperately removed all my live rock (40lbs) and inverts (starfish, anenomes, snails, shrimp and crabs) and treated the display tank with Sea Cure copper. This process took 4 months to treat and strip the copper. <Yes... Once this sort of parasitic problem becomes entrenched... it can be brutal to eradicate> Recently I noticed that my Hippo Tang and Domino Damsel were again infected. I quickly quarantined them but unfortunately my infected tank is now back together will all inverts in place. I have a UV sterilizer on the way, 25W Rainbow to hook up with my 150 g/hr Fluval Canister. I also am considering lowering the SG but I am afraid it will harm my inverts, especially my Carpet and Bubble anenomes. Can you offer any advice on lowering SG?  <Do lower the spg by about a thousandth per day... to 1.017 should definitely be safe... but you will be able to tell if you're going too fast and/or too far...> Is it possible that this awful parasite will never leave?  <Yes and no... I would also place two types of Cleaners, a Lysmata Shrimp sp. and a Gobiosoma goby in there... and seek a "balance" at this point rather than total removal...> I'm getting very frustrated and very tired. Thanks for any advice you can provide. Chris Gussin <I can tell... Me too. Thanks for letting me vent. Bob Fenner>

RXP? Nah.... Oh hey! I just got back from my LFS, which happens to be a PetCo, so unfortunately not that much tuned to saltwater, in fact, this store shouldn't be allowed to have saltwater fish cause all they do it bring them in and kill them as a result of poor care... but that's another story, anyway I couldn't find anymore medicated fish foods, but I did pick up Kent Marine's RxP parasite treatment, so I figured I give that a try, at least that may help stop further spreading and infection, just curious if you've ever used it... thanks DAVE <Do know the product and its like, and unfortunately do not endorse its use... Give it a smell... What does it remind you of? A clue: Kodak owns the chemical patent... Capsicum, hmmm? A scandal that this fine company should offer such a careless, ineffectual product... My opinion. Bob Fenner>

RXP Hello, I am an aquarist that keeps many types of marine angels. I have head that you are the person to turn to for information on Kent Marine's RXP. Can you tell me more about it? I have an Ich problem that keeps re-surfacing, and I would like to get rid of it. Any info you could provide would be truly appreciated. Thanks, Megan McLaughlin <Thank you for writing... Am a big fan of Kent Marine's products and the folks who own, run the company... but not of this one item (RXP)... better to treat ich and other protozoan/parasitic complaints of marines through careful selection, dips/baths and quarantine to do all the good you can do to exclude their introduction into your main/display systems... and then utilize purposeful cleaner organisms, vitamin supplements, high and consistent water quality to prevent their surfacing nonetheless... And if, when external parasite problems arise, to treat them through environmental manipulation and lastly by copper and test kit use... As detailed over and over in articles and FAQs posted on our website: www.WetWebMedia.com Bob Fenner>

NO-ICH (Now Eco Librium, http://www.fishvet.com/) Hello Robert, Have a question concerning the use of NO-ICH medication produced by Fish-Vet Inc.? What is the best way to make use of this product and what does it mean by using it prophylactically to prevent outbreaks. I know it's to prevent outbreak's, but is it wise do this and again what is the best way to use this medication? I am sorry for asking these questions but I don't seem to find any information at your site concerning NO-ICH. Thanks! Ron <Don't think it is a good idea to preventatively use this or any other ich remedy/medication I'm aware of. The manufacturers recommended treatment protocol should be adhered to here as with all such products (if/when used). Bob Fenner>

Parasite Control Bob, Have you ever used any "reef/invertebrate" safe parasite control products that were effective in eliminating/control marine ich? <Have tested them a bit... myself... and have many anecdotal reports from others...> The products that I am referring to specifically (based on the manufacturer's literature) are: (1) Chem-Marin Stop Parasites (2) Kick-Ich Both of those products are touted as being effective in Ich removal and safe for use in a reef aquarium with inverts and coral. <Yes, I know of these claims> Your experience or thoughts on the subject and these products would be appreciated.. Thanks, Rocky Phillips <Do know of other credible users that assert success using both of these... however, don't consider them completely safe or effective myself. Bob Fenner>

Treatment Hello, had a few questions...could you recommend a medication to treat (what I believe is) marine ick. I have a Coral Beauty Angel with a few white spots on his head. No other fish appear to be affected. I need a medication that would not harm inverts, as I have several crabs and snails. <IMO/E there is no such medication that will effectively treat protozoan parasites and not harm invertebrates. Please read through our site: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm> I also have a Greenbird Wrasse that has an inflamed nose (beak). This does not effect his eating, but looks terrible. Is there something to treat this as well? <Not much to do here but keep the system stable and optimized. Bob Fenner> I appreciate your help, and hope to hear from you soon. Cory

Question about Kick-Ick product (If it quacks like a duck) Robert, Can you please tell me exactly what ingredients are in the Kick-Ick product and if any of these ingredients are harmful to any marine fish more specifically ocellaris clown fish? I have not received an answer yet from Ruby Reef and I trust your opinion about the product. <Mmm, am not surprised at the lack of response... a "proprietary" formula... that can best found out likely by posting your query on the various bulletin boards, chatrooms in the interest...> I began treating my 72 gallon tank last Friday and after day 3 my clown fish turned white in color and then died. My tank is well established running for 8 months and I have had the clown fish for 2 months and he was very healthy up until yesterday... dead. I have made no changes to my tank , salinity always at 1.018, PH 8.3 and Ammonia at 0, Nitrites at 0 and Nitrates at 10. The only fish with Ick was the Gold Rim Tang and that's why I began the treatment. I was originally going to quarantine him by removing him and placing him in a treatment tank but I could not catch him because I have a lot of live rock. Was treating my main tank a bad idea???  <Yes... almost always necessary to treat elsewhere... Please read through the many parts of our principal site having to do with marine parasite disease... starting here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm and following the links...> Is this product to strong for some fish like clowns? <I don't use, endorse this product, this companies products.> My damsels are also looking very white in color now too. Please help. <Search, study, read over the WWM site... Bob Fenner>

Herbal Ich Attack Bob, This is supposedly a new product created by Kordon. I see no info on this in your web site. What are your thoughts on herbal treatments? This is "again" supposedly reef safe, and has been used locally per my LFS with no side effects/ complaints. D. <Have no experience, data re this/these products. Do know the owner/manager of Kordon/Novalek, Dr. Bob Rofen... he is "the real thing"... honest, competent... an industry leader. Bob Fenner>

Re: Parasitic diseases (Re: Herbal Ich Attack) http://www.novalek.com/klistfr.htm Responding to your message. My comments are in red. R. Rofen <Thank you for this Dr. Bob... Am hopeful that this is indeed as worthy a product as you state. Will post to our principal site: WetWebMedia.com for others perusal. Hope to see you about at the trade shows. Bob Fenner> >Hi, >Is it necessary to turn a skimmer off while medicating with Herbal Ich Attack? No How long should I treat? My yellow tang is still waking up with grainy spores (ich) , this is day 3 of treatment. Ich has a 3-4 day cycle and sometimes longer  >for the >tomites to hatch from the white cysts. Even when you cannot see  >them, >cysts can be in the mouth and gills and embedded in the skin and >scales. The tomites hatched from the cysts are re-attaching to  >fish >within hours. The medication (whatever it is) diminishes in  >strength by >the hour, and some tomites may not be killed, if full treatment has  >not >been made the day they hatch and are in the free-swimming stage.  >Often >daily treatments for 7-8 days, and sometimes longer are required to  >kill >all the tomites before they become attached. Actually treatments twice a day (even if just half dosage each treatment) would be more effectivebecause we are in some instances of Ich that they are more resistant to treatment and as well it would help in getting rid of and suppressing >fungal infections Herbal Ich Attack has a reason for being because it is not harsh on the fishes and does not affect the filter nitrifying bacteria. We tested many marines with this medication, including yellow tangs with good success. I hope you have the same results. Robert Rofen, Novalek, Inc., U.S.A.

Yellow Tang Problems Hi, I have had a Yellow Tang in my tank for a little over one year now.  Two or three months ago I noticed he was developing a little white film on the side of his body, and he had cuts, or ulcers, or openings on his head.  Soon enough the film covered his head, but not the end of his mouth.  He kept eating however.  I tried treating the whole tank with various medications and nothing worked.  Now, as a last ditch effort, I have moved him to a non-cycled hospital tank because he seems to be at the end of the road.  I am treating him with Pimafix and Melafix.  They are all natural and work together.  Also, I am not feeding him, partly because the tank isn't cycled and also because he won't eat when I try to feed him.  My question(s) are: what is going on with the fish.<Does the top of the tangs head appear to be caved in?  If so he probably has hole in the head disease.  This is usually caused by poor water quality, that is infrequent water changes, high nitrate levels and poor diet. It is usually irreversible. Secondly, how long can I go without feeding the fish, and if this treatment doesn't work,<If he is not eating then I wouldn't feed him.  If he lives that long, try a little food every other day> is it safe to say that he is doomed for the aquarium in the sky?<Based on what you are saying, I'm pretty sure he will be there soon.  For future reference, tangs do require excellent water quality, and as with all marine systems, a weekly or biweekly water change along with a nutritional diet and plenty of swimming room, 70 gallons minimum in my opinion.  Sorry.  James (Salty Dog)>  

Re: Yellow Tang Problems Hi,      I have now taken my yellow tang out of the hospital tank (Sunday night) and he is back in his usual home.  He looks hungry, and he probably is.  Anyway, his head isn't caved in, and those sores on his head are all but gone.  Very minimal compared to what he went in with.  Now then, that film on him is still there.  I can't really tell if it got any better or not.  It doesn't appear to have.  The only reason that I took the fish out of the hospital tank is because the lighting in the hospital tank sucks. I can't tell if he got better or worse.  Also, to feed him in the tank.  I don't have to worry about any dangerous chemicals in the big tank.  Now, what do you think is the problem here.  Fungal, parasite, or bacterial.  Also, should I place him back in the hospital to completely cover the sores after a few days, or what?  Any and all information is appreciated. <From your scant description here, I don't think there is an actual problem... the "Fix" chemicals may have burned this fish's exterior (I would toss these herbal "remedies"), but this should heal. If the fish is otherwise okay, the system ready for it, I would return the tang to the main tank. Bob Fenner>

- Kick Ich Kicks Nothing - To may whom dear concern: I have a blue face angel fish and it has ich on it, I was trying to cure that disease with so many ways but it still has ich on its body. I  tried to quarantine and give the medicine for that fish but still it does not cure for the ich; therefore, the medicine that I give is kick ich medicine. <This product does not qualify as medicine and only succeeds at separating you from your money... will not kick anything with it except yourself.> Also, it does not want to eat at all. <Your fish is still ill, you must take other measures to tackle this problem.> I was wondering if you could please help or tell me about how to cure that disease, I will be appreciated. <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm > Thank you, Teddy Y. <Cheers, J -- >

Ecolibrium No-Ich I just purchased a Flame Angel a week & half ago brought him home and the next morning I realized he had these white spots on him when just the actinic lights were on. Being my tank is fairly new I knew my tank was not infested with Ich so I went back to were I purchased him and they sold me Kick Ich. I went home and immediately followed the directions and began treating the tank. The next day most of the white spots were gone but the flame angel health was declining. His eyes were foggy and was swimming in an unusual manner. I bagged him and took him back to the store were I purchased him. They were going to try and cure him but I found out he died that night. I'm kind of leery about using this Kick Ich should I continue treating my tank, or should I purchase this other formula that someone told me about called Vetpets Ecolibrium No-Ich. I have also began adding once a day soaking frozen Mysis shrimp with 2 drops of Garlic Xtreme. Thank you for any suggestions you might have. David Jackson <Umm, please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked files above... and Act... Quickly. You need a complete understanding of what is going on here... and to avoid scam products. Bob Fenner>

Anolyte Hello, My name is Phil Watalla, and I have a pet store in British Columbia, Canada.  I was wondering if you heard anything about a substance called Anolyte.  I was told that it kills bad bacteria and it is good for all ecosystems, people, and animals. <Mmm, looks like you've been reading their spiel: http://www.syntez.co.za/anolyte.htm > What I am wondering is if it would be good for an aquarium. <Mmm, short answer, no... pH is too low... you don't need its constituents added to biological systems... it's a biocide... as in Latin: "caedere" like our English word "cease"... it kills all life> I have done some research on it and I can't find anything out about aquarium use. I am worried because it says that it kills micro-organisms.  When it was first described to me I thought it sounded just like a bacterial culture starter such as Cycle. <Definitely is NOT> The person who is trying to sell it to me is also trying to promote it in aquarium use, but he doesn't know anything about either salt or fresh water systems. Any info you can provide me with (if any) will be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much for your time. Sincerely, Phil Watalla Kootenay Pets Cranbrook BC Canada <I would NOT place this in a living system. Bob Fenner> 

ECA water (Anolyte) Can you give me any information about the uses of ECA water in aquarium care. ECA water is Electro Chemically Activated water also known as Anolyte. Doug McMullin <I would write the company (manufacturer) directly re this application. Some of the components listed are outright toxic to aquatic life. Short answer: I would NOT place this in a biological system. Bob Fenner>                        Life and Energy                                            Doug McMullin

Re: ECA water (Anolyte) Hello there Bob <Doug> Just for your information, I have been using this in my aquarium for the last fifteen months and my mortality rate has dropped to zero.  My goldfish appear healthier and more robust. I have heard that one of the largest importers of tropical fish in Europe is using this with much the same results.  To my knowledge the only toxic ingredient is chlorine that at a 0.2% dosage is very beneficial to the systems that they have been used in.  One thing that was suggested to me in using this product is to introduce it just before the filter system. Apparently it shocks the filter system and destroys harmful bacteria while also enhancing good bacterial grown. <? Seems counterintuitive... how would a chemical "know" the difference?>   The small amount of chlorine present is absorbed by the charcoal in the filter.  It is also used in systems that do not contain charcoal. <Okay> It is not my intention to tell you your business. <Mmm, this is NOT my business... I have never used, nor seen this product... just perused their website... Again, I encourage you to... oh, I see below.> I have been marketing this product to Hog producers in North America for over a year with awesome results. I have also heard of it's successful use with soft-shell crab production in Australia and prawn production in Malaysia.  I sent in my initial inquiry to see if it had be tested by your associates or not. <I don't know... we don't have formal facilities for doing science... are only a loose group of fellow-minded friends> I am presently working with the Alberta Crop Diversification Centre in Brooks, Alberta and their scientists have been blown away  the results of this product.  One of the areas they are experimenting with is in designing combined aquaculture/hydroponics systems that will be expanded to commercial enterprises and they are finding that the Anolyte is helping to control the excess harmful bacteria that these systems produce. <What is the specific action of this product? It is a mild bactericide, mildewcide? What effects does in have on dissolved oxygen, ORP for instance?> Thank you for your time.  If you would like any other info, contact information etc. please let me know. Doug McMullin. <Am happy to go over, post all correspondence... but don't do product reviews, endorsements per se. Bob Fenner>

Re: Help with Yellow Tang, phony med.s, using WWM Thanks for your help Bob,         Before I received your reply I asked another LFS about this and suggested that I use a course of Parazoryne. I've been using this and got some live rock and it seems to be helping because the spots have been getting lighter and the wrasse is picking off him. <Uh... "totally non-toxic chemical free..." What's this stuff made of, vacuum and energy? http://www.koicarp.net/koi_medication/sabbactisun_parazoryne/parazoryne.html. Am not a fan of herbal remedies for fish ailments...> Though about the system being too small for the fish. I spoke to my wife about getting rid of one of the tangs and she says that she likes the tangs and doesn't want to get rid of any of them. She agreed that we can get another system. The tank that we decided on is the Juwel Trigon 350. Is this big enough and will I be able to use the Fluval 304 on it. <350 liters is big enough for these two tangs... and you can use your canister filter, but will very likely need more filtration, circulation than just it can provide> As well we are going to need to put the tank in the same place as that old one do you have any suggestions on how to do this. Will it be possible to move all the water to the new tank and top it up with fresh salt water? Could I use the same substrate + extra or could I put new substrate in the new tank? last question is will I need to cycle the new tank? Regards Eric Jooste MBCI <Please see WetWebMedia.com, insert your questions in the Google search tool there. Bob Fenner>

Pimafix and protein skimming Hi everyone. Hope you are doing well. <And you> I have a question that has to do with my clownfish. I have a ocellaris clown that is eating well and active. He is showing signs of fin rot on his dorsal and I would like to introduce Pimafix to the system. Have had very good results with this in my freshwater system. On the Pimafix bottle it states that the protein skimmer may have to be turned off during treatment. Why is that? Does protein skimming interfere with the effectiveness of Pimafix or does it induce extreme foaming of the skimmer? <The latter. Skimming removes this "remedy" quickly. Bob Fenner> Thank you very much for your time.
D.B. 

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