Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/30/09
Please help.
<Ryan, I would like to apologize (Sara, post or don't post this, I don't care). There are a few in the "Crew" that just let queries rot in their boxes.  Something such as fish disease and treatment are very time sensitive. I again apologize for the slow response here.>
I got my Quinine Sulfate in the mail today as you suggested. I bought "Crypt-Pro" but I see that nationalfishpharm has a couple different directions how to dose/treat the tank. What have you found to be successful? On their website is says to dose 1/4 tsp per 10-gallons one time and then leave it be for 5-7 days.
<No.>
On the jar itself, it says to dose 1/8 tsp everyday and do 25% water change every day too.
<This is what I would follow.>
When I called them on the phone they said add 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and leave in tank for 5-7 days with no water changes.
<Dang, nothing like consistency!>
Everywhere I look they have a different treatment plan. What way do you think is best? Thanks.
<I would follow the directions on the label. There are a few problems here. First is how "concentrated" the actual powder is. I cannot speak for this particular product. The next problem is there are no reasonable test kits available to aquarist for testing the levels of this medication, but this is the case with many other treatments too. The third issue is the compound does degrade, particularly photosensitive. Basically dosing what the bottle says is going to give you the most effective shot with this treatment. You will constantly be dosing to replace what is used or degraded, while doing water changes to keep the level in check should it build up. Do be sure to have no substrate/rock in the system, it will adsorb the quinine sulfate to a point. And of course, no carbon or chemical filtration. Best of luck, Scott V.>

Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/31/09
Scott,
Thank you very much for the reply.
<Very welcome.>
Apology accepted, normally you guys are extremely fast at responding. And I couldn't be too upset even if you didn't respond because you have offered me plenty of free advice in the past.
<Thank you.>
Ok, I will do as you and the label says, 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and 25% daily water change. If the quinine sulfate is photo-sensitive maybe I should keep the lights on just a couple hours a day or so??
<At most, I would likely rely on the ambient lighting in the room, turn the lights on only when you want to inspect the fish.>
I am in the process of switching my salt over from natural seawater to Tropic Marin Pro Reef in my 180-gallon tank. I guess on the bright side of these daily 25% water changes in my hospital tank is that if I take 5-gallons of natural seawater out of my display tank and put that 5-gallons into my QT daily, it will give my display a quicker switch to the tropic Marin pr and my coral should appreciate that.
<A good idea.>
Do you know if Quinine Sulfate is safe to use with Amquel+ or any ammonia/nitrite neutralizer?
<I really do not know, a good question. The manufacturer does warn it will interfere with many medications, but the quinine sulfate is not listed.
But it is not a "mainstream" med per se either. I am going to put this back into the general crew folder for input from somebody that may know the answer.>
Although I had a hard cycle in my QT which took about 7-weeks, I am registering .25 ammonia in the QT because the bio load is big for a 20-gallon QT. I know you can't use Amquel+ with copper, I sure hope it is ok with Quinine Sulfate otherwise I may have to do hyposalinity which will be an even bigger pain in the butt. If this Quinine Sulfate I purchased works, I plan on doing it prophylactic-ly on every new fish for the 5-7 day period. I had to tear my reef apart (I don't want to do this ever again) to catch my 4" powder brown tang.
<No fun!>
The 2 x 2" clownfish were easy to catch and the 4" hippo tang wasn't too hard. All of them in a 20-gallon is pushing the limits.
<Wow, yes. Do think about even investing in a second quarantine tank or just some sort of cheap holding vessel.>
Daily pwc and Amquel+ may be the only way to keep them alive. One more question please. What do you think the chances of getting crypt from coral frags is after doing a typical coral dip in Revive and putting into display?
<Very little in an otherwise healthy system.>
Thanks again
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/31/09
Scott,
Thank you very much for the reply.
<Very welcome.>
Apology accepted, normally you guys are extremely fast at responding. And I couldn't be too upset even if you didn't respond because you have offered me plenty of free advice in the past.
<Thank you.>
Ok, I will do as you and the label says, 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and 25% daily water change. If the quinine sulfate is photo-sensitive maybe I should keep the lights on just a couple hours a day or so??
<At most, I would likely rely on the ambient lighting in the room, turn the lights on only when you want to inspect the fish.>
I am in the process of switching my salt over from natural seawater to Tropic Marin Pro Reef in my 180-gallon tank. I guess on the bright side of these daily 25% water changes in my hospital tank is that if I take
5-gallons of natural seawater out of my display tank and put that 5-gallons into my QT daily, it will give my display a quicker switch to the tropic Marin pr and my coral should appreciate that.
<A good idea.>
Do you know if Quinine Sulfate is safe to use with Amquel+ or any ammonia/nitrite neutralizer?
<I really do not know, a good question. The manufacturer does warn it will interfere with many medications, but the quinine sulfate is not listed.
But it is not a "mainstream" med per se either. I am going to put this back into the general crew folder for input from somebody that may know the answer.>
Although I had a hard cycle in my QT which took about 7-weeks, I am registering .25 ammonia in the QT because the bio load is big for a 20-gallon QT. I know you can't use Amquel+ with copper, I sure hope it is
ok with Quinine Sulfate otherwise I may have to do hyposalinity which will be an even bigger pain in the butt. If this Quinine Sulfate I purchased works, I plan on doing it prophylactically on every new fish for the 5-7 day period. I had to tear my reef apart (I don't want to do this ever again) to catch my 4" powder brown tang.
<No fun!>
The 2 x 2" clownfish were easy to catch and the 4" hippo tang wasn't too hard. All of them in a 20-gallon is pushing the limits.
<Wow, yes. Do think about even investing in a second quarantine tank or just some sort of cheap holding vessel.>
Daily pwc and Amquel+ may be the only way to keep them alive. One more question please. What do you think the chances of getting crypt from coral frags is after doing a typical coral dip in Revive and putting into
display?
<Very little in an otherwise healthy system.>
Thanks again
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Quinine..sulfate or phosphate???  5/11/09
Mr. Fenner,
Thanks for the response. I read the link you listed above which had lots of good info. My main confusion is why do you recommend CP over QS?
Thanks again.
<Is more "broad spectrum"... treats more "things" more effectively. BobF>

Quinine..sulfate or phosphate??? 5/11/09
Hi Crew,
<Simon>
For the poster to this query today there is a couple of very cheap sources here in the UK - I don't know if that is it useful to them or not:
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_
1_3474.html
http://www.pills2u.co.uk/5188/-AVLOCLOR-Tablets.html?referrer=froogle&utm_so
urce=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=pid5188to
Thanks to all!!!
Simon Trippick
<Thank you for this valuable input. For folks looking in the U.S., fishy pharmacy: http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/symptoms.html
is a ready source. Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank   5/7/09
Hi Bob and Crew -
<Kevin>
I spend at least 8-10 hours per week reading on your site and absolutely love and appreciate all of the great advice. I have only been in the hobby for about 6 months and already have a 300 Gallon Reef, a 60 Gallon FOWLR, and a 34 Gallon Species with a Carpet Anemone and one False Percula. You helped me identify a Nudibranch about a month ago and I have since invested in another 30 gallon tank for quarantine and treatment.
However, like many of your readers, I was devastatingly delinquent in adding the quarantine tank. So, today I write you regarding my 300 Gallon Reef System. I have spend many hours reading on your site about Crypto and other parasites and have recently added a Powder Blue Tang from my 60 Gallon to the 300 Gallon reef system. A week later, I lost my Puffer and Volitans Lion in the 60 gallon tank to Ich. Now, the Powder Blue Tang is showing signs of Ich and has evidently spread the love. My 5" Foxface Lo is also exhibiting signs of 'Black Ich'.
<This, as you likely are aware, is not "that" deleterious>
I know that the drill is to capture and treat all of the fish. This is not possible in this tank. Even if I were to remove all the rock, many of the fishes would hide in the substrate,
<Mmm, they can be sand-sifted out>
etc. However, last night I ran across a post where I inferred that treating the display tank is better than nothing at all. I am afraid that this will be my only option. So, my plan is as follows:
1) Remove all of my Coral and place in a large quarantine tank2) I have ordered Chloroquine Phosphate based on recommendation by WWM and the book "The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook" This is truly the least lethal medication for the fish and the best for a display, right?
<Currently likely the most useful for Protozoans, including Amyloodinium>
3) I will remove as many of my snails and crabs as possible<Mmm... this antimalarial (Aralen) is quite toxic to a range of invertebrates... and there are, assuredly, a huge mix of these in and about your rock, substrate... These may be killed (along with any algae), resulting in a toxic cascade effect... Again, it would be much BETTER to remove the fishes, treat them elsewhere>
4) I will treat the display tank for 10 days with 40mg per gallon of Chloroquine Phosphate
My question is, at the end of this treatment, assuming all of the fish look fine:
1) How long do I wait to add the coral and inverts back
<Three weeks or so>
2) Do I change 50% water and add charcoal to rid the Chloroquine? Is this sufficient?
<Activated carbon and Polyfilter should do it>
3) I believe that I have read in several places that the necessary bacteria should not be affected by this treatment, is this still your experience?
<Yes... however... the above reference...>
Is there anything that I have overlooked that may cause me problems either immediately; or, long term?
<Turn off your skimmer, and UV, remove any other chemical filtrants...>
Thank you very much for all of your help!
- Kevin
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
[Fwd: Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank]
I left out my water parameters, etc:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate less than 5
SG 1.027
PH 8.3
<These are fine. I'd like to add the possibility of your delivering the CP via foods... One formula calls for 3.7 grams of CP dissolved in a gel powder mix of 300 grams... this mixed with water, foods... less toxic to
non-targeted "other" life. BobF>

Crypt help!!!! 3-26-09
Hi guys,
<Evening>
Love the website...I use it lots.
<It is superb...so do I>
Unfortunately, this time I have a question that I need a little more help with. I have a boxfish (Ostracion cubicus) with a really bad case of crypt....(I think).
<A better diagnosis than "I think" would be helpful>
I've had him for about 6 months and he's always been really healthy and happy.
<Good to hear, not an easy species to keep. I have an O. cubicus myself>
About a week ago, I went down to feed him, and found him absolutely covered in little white bumps. I've read all of the remedies for crypt on your site, but my problem is that I can't really use any of them because I also have a banded bamboo shark, a porcupine puffer, a spotted puffer, and a hermit crab in the tank.
<I also have a bamboo shark, cute when they're little, but fast growers and they need a big tank!>
I know that if he gets stressed he can release a deadly toxin, which is why I am unsure about moving him into a quarantine tank.
<All the more reason to do so>
I have noticed a couple spots on the puffers, but they aren't nearly as bad. I've been treating the tank with Ich cure for a few days, but he just seems to be getting worse.
<What are the ingredients in "ich cure"? I recommend ceasing treatment and performing a large (50% +) water change>
I've also been adding some garlic in with his food, but that doesn't seem to be helping either.
<Garlic isn't a cure for anything>
He's still happy, and eating great, he just looks terrible all covered in bumps. I guess my question is Do I risk moving him into a QT tank, or is there some other treatment that is safe for the shark and the puffers? Any help you could give me would be appreciated... I'm getting worried about the little guy.
<I'm not sure how big your shark, puffers, and boxfish are, but treatment in a QT tank is always recommended. If this is not feasible (water quality could definitely be an issue here) then your only option will be to treat the entire display tank. Your "miracle cure" in either case is going to be the medication quinine sulfate, available from www.nationalfishpharm.com.
At the risk of sounding like a salesperson (I'm not, just a fan!), this is the most effective crypt medication I've ever used, and is safe with puffers and sharks. Order it, pay extra for overnight shipping, and treat asap. Quinine sulfate is toxic to molluscs, and other invertebrates to a lesser extent>
Thanks in advance!!
<Anytime>
Quinn
<M. Maddox>

Crypt help!!!! Part II 4-10-09
Hello again,
<Evening - sorry about the slow reply>
So I ordered the "miracle cure", and began treating the tank.
<I'm not sure I would call Quinine Sulfate a 'miracle cure', but it is very effective>
Its been 3 days and the problem only seems to be getting worse. The boxfish is so covered in white bumps that you can barely see his skin anymore.
<Time for a freshwater dip>
My porcupine puffer has also taken a turn for the worst. I noticed after I added the quinine sulfate that her eyes got all cloudy and she was bumping into things.
<Possible a secondary bacterial infection>
She also stopped eating.
<Common in ill puffers>
Today, her eyes are completely white, and she is laying on the bottom, breathing really hard. I have a feeling she isn't going to make it much longer.
<You should definitely move both of the fish into QT and treat with broad spectrum antibiotics in addition to the QS>
I have a hospital tank, but it is currently housing a panther grouper.
<Time for a second QT!>
I'm not sure what to do now....do I continue the treatments and water changes with the quinine sulfate, or do I set up a new hospital tank, wait for it to cycle, and move them all into there?
<The waste products can be negated with Amquel+ or Prime, this isn't the time to be worrying about anything except getting the fish into a treatment tank>
I have been using a UV sterilizer (I turned it off when treating with quinine sulfate as per the instructions on the bottle), but that doesn't seem to have helped either.
<Flow rate through the sterilizer?>
The shark and the dogface puffer still seem unaffected, but I feel uneasy about leaving them in a tank that is so sick. I've done a whole range of water tests and nothing is out of range, I don't know what to do next.... please help!!!!!
<Move all fish into a QT tank, treat with quinine and antibiotics, and leave your main tank fallow (fish-less) for at least 5 weeks>
Quinn
<Good luck! Mike Maddox>

Dosing instructions on Chloroquine Phosphate for ich??   2/16/08
Hi, Looked on your site and could not find the answer. I have a 200 gallon saltwater tank with lots of live rock, a few large angelfish and some other smaller fish (no corals). I have ich in my tank and want to try the Chloroquine Phosphate powder....finally found it on line at Fishchemical.com but don't know how to dose it. I would like to dose it
several times over a month so that it can kill all of the ich swimmers as they hatch.
<Mmm... really needs to be administered outside the display tank... to discount interaction with other materials>
Found a dose in a book that was a one time only of 5 to 10 mg. per liter, but I need it to kill over an entire month to kill all the ich.
<A few protocols call for the dosage you mention, applied every three days for three treatments>
It seems to me that this would require multiple dosing as the medication may degrade in the system over time. I don't want to over dose and kill the fish, or under dose and not kill the ich. I plan to remove 2/3 of my sand
(with the sand worms), and as many of my snails and crabs as I can find, and my macro algae, and put them in a 40 gallon tank for 6 weeks to 2 months until all the medication is out of the system and the ich has died off in the removed sand.
<... this really won't work. Again, you need to remove, treat all fishes elsewhere>
How does one dose this medication? I will be getting it in two days and hope it will not be too late. I hope the powder has the milligrams listed per given quantity. I have a gram scale. Does anyone know if it kills coralline algae on the rocks? Would it be better to not put the snails and sand worms back in and just go snail-less and worm-less so that I can dose this medication anytime I have a problem. If I don't put any of the old sand and stuff back in there may not be a need for the snails as the algae would be all dead?? Thank you in advance for any advice, Lesley in Houston
<Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage   2/13/09
I acquired a Kole recently, and put him into quarantine where I've noticed two relatively small white patches on him.
About one month ago after reading Bob Fenner's writings here, I acquired some Chloroquine phosphate from a Canadian pharmaceutical company. It came in 250 mg tablets.
My question is how to go about trading him. The fish is in a 10 gallon quarantine tank with a seeded filter, but I know that frequent water changes will be necessary. Specifically, how do we administer the does which I believe is 10 mg/liter (380 mg/10 gallon tank)?
<You could "grind up" the tablet/s... with a pill crusher... or have a pharmacist do this for you (grind, weigh)... "guess"/measure as to about the right amount otherwise>
This drug is not like copper. We have no way of testing its level. As we will need to do water changes from time to time, how can we be sure that the level is correct?
<One can only "guess-timate" presently. There is a broad range of efficacy, safety>
Your advice will be greatly appreciated as we would very much like to save this fish.
Thank you,
Jeffrey Castaldo
<And re the "patches" period... I would not likely treat for this/these... better to dip/bath and place this Ctenochaetus in your main display. Bob Fenner>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09
Based upon a dosage of 10 mg per 1 L, which is what I have read here, 380 mg (1.5 tablets) would be correct, and easy enough to attain accurately with a pill cutter.
<We are in agreement>
However, having just acquired this fish, I am curious as to why you recommend to just dip/bath the fish and place it into my main display tank without the usual 30 day quarantine I usually adhere to, and what is normally stressed here on WWW.
<This genus is "touchier" than "average"... and that you state you have only a ten gallon to quarantine it in... My high confidence opinion is that there is much less likelihood to be transmittal of pests, parasites (excluded through preventative bath) than subsequent damage to this specimen in a months isolation there>
Without a photograph, are you able to give me some insight as to what those patches are?
<Mmm, only guesses in either case. I have collected Combtooth tangs in a few countries, though primarily in HI... these are often hand-damaged through moving from hand netting (off a barrier, mist net) to collecting/decomp. buckets... and later processing... Often what one sees here are actual "fingerprints" on the fishes' sides...>
And when you recommend a dip/bath, are you referring to plain buffered (8.4) freshwater, with Methylene blue, Formalin, or?
<I am referring to all of these possible protocols. I would use pH adjusted  FW, some MB and Formalin... the last with heavy aeration>
Also, I am still uncertain as how to go about keeping the dose therapeutic when I need to make frequent water changes. I suppose I could use Prime, but I am uncertain as to how to incorporate that into the treatment.
<A good question. I don't know either. Maybe ask the folks at FishVet (.com)>
I am sending this follow-up because I do not fully understand, and want to administer the proper treatment.
Thank you very much for your assistance.
Jeffrey Castaldo
<A pleasure to conspire with you, BobF>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09
Thank you for clarifying this to me, and for your excellent advice and honesty. I realize that there is no clear-cut solution for all situations; many times we must learn through trial and error.
Best regards,
Jeffrey Castaldo
<Ah, yes... am doing my best to share, warn folks of my too-many errors... so they can avoid these trials. Cheers! BobF>

Urgent Quarantine... Quinine f'  1/24/09
Hello Crew,
<Kayla>
A few days ago, I placed my marine fish in quarantine because a few were displaying signs of ich. I have a Valentini puffer, six-line wrasse, "powder brown"/white-cheek tang, hippo tang, and two percula clowns. After much research, I decided to perform a freshwater dip with formalin/malachite green and place into a 30 gallon quarantine with hyposalinity (1.010) and 10 mg/L of Chloroquine phosphate.
<Okay>
The first day went fine, but the second day the water became quite cloudy. I have been testing the water qualities and have 0 ppm of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, with a pH of 8.3. Today, I found the wrasse laying on the tank bottom respirating very rapidly. Again, the ammonia (etc.) levels were all in check. A few hours later, the powder brown was doing the same thing, with very rapid respiration. So, I immediately did a 50% water change (with Chloroquine), but then decided to put in a carbon filter in case the Chloroquine was the cause of their problems.
<Good moves... I'd also add more aeration>
I fear I will lose these guys. I am not sure what could be wrong; do you have any ideas?
<Mmm... some sort of proliferation of microbes... perhaps a chemical interaction with the water, and?>
Have you had experience with Chloroquine causing this?
<I have not>
Do you have any suggestions of what I can do quickly to save them?
<Not quickly, no. But doing what you have... water changes, adding carbon... should... and I would look instead to restoring near NSW spg and using a copper cpd. here... chelated...>
I cannot move them back into the display tank very fast since the specific gravity is significantly better.
Thanks in advance for your advice,
Kayla
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Re: puffer/lionfish with ick : (    1/21/09
I read the article you asked me and many more. The treatment is working and all ich appears to be gone.
<Ahh!>
The directions on the quinine sulfate bottle are not that clear. they say to ad .25 tsp for every ten gallons, once every three days with a 25% water change in-between treatments. Then it says 3 consecutive treatments is equal to a 9 day continual bath. then it goes on to the warning statements.
my question is what do i do after a 9 day continual bath? Do i stop treatment and see if any ich appear?
<Mmm, yes>
Or do i keep treating?
<I would cease after the three exposures>
Also the puffer is still not eating. He will chase the food around and attempt to bite it but then just let is go.
<Not to worry...>
Are spiny burrfish (spiny box puffer via liveaquaria.com) especially hard to get eating?
<Sometimes, yes... and go on feeding strikes at times for no apparent reason... Which you'd know had you searched on WWM, read before writing...>
What are your suggestions on the Quinine Sulfate and the puffers "eating problems"
thanks for all the help/info, you guys have helped me save some very beloved fish,
Mike
<Please... I've already referred you to where to educate yourself... Do go there. B>

Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s  12/29/08
Hi WWM Crew,
<Greg>
Like so many other marine aquarists, I am having a terrible time dealing with ich.
<Ah, yes... a scourge. Likely one of the chief reasons folks give up on the hobby... An issue/factor that's been with "us" as long as the hobby has...
And one that I tried repeatedly (and haven't given up) addressing the trade re... See my letter archived here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/ltrquartrdbiz.htm>
I first got the infestation in my 400 gallon, mostly FOWLR (I do have a couple of shrimp, urchins, and an anemone), display tank back in July of this year. I initially tried dealing with it by feeding food soaked in Selcon/Garlic but things progressed to the point where I decided to treat with Cupramine in a hospital tank.
<No fun for sure>
I acquired a used 240 gallon acrylic tank and treated my fish for 28 days with Cupramine which cured the ich. I then kept my fish for another 4 weeks in the hospital tank so that my display remained fallow for a total of 8 weeks. Getting all my fish into the hospital tank was a huge undertaking and included draining my display and removing 525 lbs of live rock in order to catch the fish.
<Ugghh!>
My fish finally went back into the display tank at the end of October.
Things initially looked good for 2-3 weeks when, to my surprise, the ich returned. In the interim, I gave away the hospital tank thinking that, with my 60 gallon quarantine tank I would never need such a large tank for treatment again. At this point I am very frustrated. I have thousands of dollars worth of very rare, expensive fish including a prized Conspicuous Angel with Cryptocaryon. The fish are actually all eating well/behaving normally, but they definitely have the disease.
At this point, having tried the copper/fallow approach I am ready to treat my entire display tank, liverock included. Initially, I was thinking of Cupramine but I am aware it would be nearly impossible to get a therapeutic concentration with all of the live rock.
<Correct... I would not do this... use copper of any sort here>
Also, I would like to be able to return the inverts to the tank after treatment.
I have been reading about Quinine Sulphate available from National Fish Pharmacy on your website. I have several questions pertaining to its use that I have not found answers for. Is it absorbed by the live rock?
<To a minor extent, yes>
Will I be able to keep inverts in the tank again after its use and removal with carbon/Poly filters?
<Mmm... possibly... both this (QS) and Chloroquine Phosphate (CP) are toxic to some algae, invertebrate groups, along with Protists... really can't be used/recommended for application in a "reef" system>
Can I expect a huge ammonia spike from die off from the live rock?
<Is possible, yes>
(mine is actually quite bare from being continually pecked at by angels/puffers/triggers so I am not really sure how "live" it is). Will it wipe out my biological filter leaving me with an uncycled tank?
<Not likely here>
My case is a little unique in that my live rock is worth significantly less than my livestock. I am willing to sacrifice it if I can rid my display of this disease.
Thank you very much for your time.
Greg Cohen
<I do wish I had better "news"... there are probiotics, "vaccines" sold for Cryptocaryon... but not in the U.S. as yet... I would try reducing Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOCs) through the use of Ozone here (steady, high RedOx really is a very good adjunct to boosting immune systems approaches)... this may shift the balance here to your advantage. I do hope your fishes rally...
Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s  12/30/08
Bob,
<Tom, thanks much for chiming in... I/we do delete folks emails, including their addresses daily... but I do hope the querior sees your input>
Thought I might respond to this since I have a lot of 'experience' dealing with the Quinine, and to answer some of his questions: It definitely is toxic to invertebrates other than hermit crabs. It kills snails in a matter of hours if not minutes. It can be removed with a skimmer, Polyfilter and water changes and inverts can be returned to the tank after these measures are taken. It does not cause a sizable spike in ammonia, as it does not seem to harm the biological filter. or at least has not in my usage of it. Oddly enough, it will completely destroy Cyanobacteria with one dose.
The problem is, I'm not sure how effective it is on this mega strain of Ich.
It can control it, but I have not been able to eradicate it. I ended up disposing of my Atlantic Blue Tang because he seemed to be a 'carrier' of sorts, meaning after the medication is removed he contracted ich again every time. My other fish, that being the Passer Angel, Yellow Tang, and Lunare Wrasse (Oh, and Lawnmower Blenny) are all resistant, so it would seem. I had the same issue as this guy, in that to set up a hospital tank in order to allow the main system to 'fallow' was quite impractical due to the size requirements. I feel his pain.
<Me too>
The question I have now is, and Bob, it would pretty much be your opinion, is that I want to introduce a few more fish to the tank once we are settled.
What species or genus maybe do you feel are most resistant to ich?
<There are a few groups, species that tend toward either end of the spectrum here>
The Atlantic Blues are definitely not. and I don't think I want to go with another tang anyhow. Surely there are some types of fish that are more resistant. I'm thinking now it's not a matter of choice for me, but more of what can be considered an option.
<... Mmm, please do see the list (of families of fishes) listed in particular at the Cryptocaryon area... these are the more sensitive/potential carriers, "hard to cures"... at the other end of the spectrum...Triggers are tough, basses by and large...>
I'm currently in the process of skimming out the Quinine and doing some partials. After a week or so I'm going to reintroduce my QT'd live rock and stars, snails, hermits, pods, etc. After a week or so of observation, I will have the 20 gallon available for a QT tank. I do not know, though, if I have eliminated the ick because I removed the fish that could not resist it (while continuing the treatment) or whether I've got ick still in the tank. I feel as if it's still there, and if that's the case, I'd like an opinion as to fish with the best possible chance of resistance.
This has been a very trying experience, and I wish him the best of luck.
Thomas
<Again, much thanks. BobF>

Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 12/27/08
Bob:
Thank you very much for your prompt response and advise, including a reply on Xmas day - now that is absolute dedication that all of us WWM users can't thank you enough for providing such wonderful "service".
<Welcome James>
I did see this Chloroquine Phosphate treatment protocol on WWM 4+ weeks ago when I first started researching how to go about dealing with my sick fish. And I even tried to get my hands on some of this stuff, but I kept running into websites that required prescriptions.... So I decided to go the tried and true route of copper, but now appreciate that I need to try this new method. This morning, I was able to find a website that will send Chlor Phos without an Rx - the URL for this site is as follows:
http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s33577-s-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE.aspx
<Thank you very much for this>
They charge approx $85 inclusive of shipping for qty 100; 500mg tablets (or 50 grams).
<Yeeikes! And oh my! This is a BUNCH of material>
I will execute the suggested protocol of 20mg/l (or 3,780 mg for 50 gallons) on day 1, followed by 50% water change 7 days later and redose of 10mg/l (or 1,890 mg/50G) repeated 2 more times after that (a total of 4 dosings). I also understand the lighting should be kept off for the entire 1 month of treatment.
<Yes... thank you for this as well. Fellow WWM Crewmember ScottV is visiting and we were just talking about the photosensitivity of this compound>
Should I at least keep a ceiling light turned on for 10-12 hrs per day?
<I would, yes>
I will certainly let you know how effective this treatment was for me in approx 7 weeks (it takes up to 3 weeks for the CP tablets to be sent, since they are coming from a pharmacy in India).
<I see...>
In the meantime (3 weeks or so till dosing begins), beyond good husbandry of constant water changes (with siphoning bare bottom) and smart feedings (with Selcon and / or Garlic), is there anything I need to do, to give these guys the best chance of survival?
<Mmm... I would not change anything here really>
They do not appear to be "sick" beyond the obvious exterior visual signs of parasites. Meaning, they are all eating vigorously, they are not going to the surface, they are not breathing rapidly, or swimming erratically (beyond occasional attempts to scratch themselves on PVC), etc. The only one I am a bit concerned about is the PB Tang - his tail seems to be regenerating, but is still missing a good 20% of volume. I am attaching a picture (this time Maxijet 1200 with venturi attachment turned off, so air bubbles not present in pix).
Lastly - I appreciate the use of CP to treat Ich seems to be a fairly new practice, and therefore there may still be some unknowns, including long term affects, etc, but I was hoping you may have input to this question: can CP be used for incoming stock in QT as a prophylactic measure?
<Mmm, I don't know this, or much else re CP either... I want to be clear, honest... as always... and state that I have no (zip, zero) experience with this material... And my current gung-ho attitude may be misleading others... I had just read some accounts, including in the new disease tome by Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo... and am hopeful... The cpd. is tried and true in terms of efficacy with humans...>
For guys like me that clearly can't distinguish the tell tale signs of Ich (even after 4+ wks of QT on all incoming stock) would the use of this medication possibly help avoid a future infestation of MDT? As I am sure you can personally appreciate, and have heard a 1000 times over from your dedicated readers, no one wants to ever have to battle something like this more than once......
Thanks again for your time, experience, passion and dedication to helping your fellow aquarists! Sincerely,
Jim
<Again, my ongoing thanks to you Jim... please do relate your further experiences here. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis?   1/11/09
Bob - hotmail appears to be garbling this ethread pretty badly, but hopefully below is not needed to support this question as it only requires yes or no:
The Chloroquine Phosphate tablets arrived from the pharmacy in India yesterday. My question is - should I remove the carbon filled filter media from top filter during treatment?
<Yes>
I don't have a skimmer or any other form of filter (except 3 sponge filters) in this 50G hospital tank.
Thanks and I'll let you know how this works for me in 4 weeks.
<Thank you>
Jim
PS - I lost the power blue tang to this "super ich" strain a few days ago. The rest of them seem fine though. I started the "no light" part of this treatment a couple days ago, just to see how they would behave / react to feedings, etc. They seem very skittish with no light, but did eat all the food I put in (from bottom of tank as opposed to how they normally come right to feeding site at top of tank). Not sure how this lack of light will affect them for 1 month?
<As long as there is some outside light the fishes will be fine... there are meteorological events that make it very dark underwater, sometimes for weeks at a time, in the wild>
Sounds like many other hobbyists have done this previously, so I guess they will be fine.
<Yes. Steady on Jim. BobF>

Thomas Roach Ick Omnibus, formaldehyde, quinine f's -12/11/08
Hello Mr. Fenner and others,
<Thomas>
Thought I would give you an update on my situation, as I'm hoping you are still familiar with it? Mainly to serve as a warning to others and emphasize the dire need for quarantining livestock, because once you get this resistant strain of Ick in your tank it is not coming out with ease?
<Ah yes>
We moved a couple of weeks ago and of course the fish still had ick? I disposed of most of my sand bed to get to 1? or less for maintenance purposes, changed 100% of the water and still had the infestation. I treated it with a Formalin product similar to quick cure, which again reduced the ick while the treatment was ongoing, but with this strain WHAT FORMALIN BASED MEDS SEEM TO DO is allow the remaining ick to come back at much greater numbers and strength? why this is, I do not know but it has happened both times I have treated with the Formalin based products.
<A useful observation, note>
This treatment I have gone back to the Quinine Sulfate (by stock in Natl. Fish Pharm if they offer it, I'm funding the place :-) ), and I seem to be having better results completely by accident! In some foggy haze I quadrupled the original dose for this size tank somehow, and it seems as though it has proven to be more effective at a ridiculously high dose.
After a 3 day period I did NOT do a partial as recommended and treated at regular dosage, and after the 2nd 3 day period I treated at 1 ½ times the recommended dosage.
The fish, into day 8, show no signs of Ick, whereas they have in the past treatments. I'm not overly confident yet, but I'll post results as we go.
If other hobbyists had any clue what I am dealing with, there would never be an email to you regarding skipping quarantine, and I cant stress it enough to your readers how much misery it can cause.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for reports on this ongoing exercise. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick-  12/11/08
Thanks, Bob... let me restress how TOUGH this is... to me far worse than Oodinium simply because you cannot get rid of it. I have the salinity at 1.017,
<Has to be much lower... 1.012, perhaps under 1.010 to really mal-affect the Cryptocaryon... at this level... most of your fishes as well...>
temp at 82, and water full of meds and it is still resistant! QT all your fish!!!!! This makes African cichlids look mighty tempting again.
<Ah yes... or even Guinea Pigs!>
On a side note, Quinine is quite effective at destroying Cyanobacteria...
at least it had one pleasant result... gone with one dose.
Thomas Roach
<Silver linings... BobF>

Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08
Hi folks,
<Elsie.>
Well, it's been two weeks since I tried to do a 100% water change on the QT tank and I guess it didn't work because I think I see spots on the blue tang and the sailfin tang. So frustrating!
<Tis frustrating.>
Should I try the copper again for two weeks, or should I try hyposalinity?
Quick Cure?
<Do a Google search re Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the web. Just safer, less toxic, this is the stuff to use here. It can be hard to find, the "in the know" LFS now carry it, otherwise do call a vet or check the web. One source:
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.>
Thanks in advance
Elise
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08
Scott,
Thanks so much for your reply.
<Welcome.>
I have never heard of the stuff before.
<Many...most have not.>
I've been glued to my computer digesting all the FAQ's on the subject.
A couple of things I'm wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as opposed to quinine sulfate?
<They are completely different compounds.>
The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc.
<A pain, just one source.>
I will try calling some local vets.
<Some will know, others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too.
A quick explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.>
Will the stuff have any effect on biological filtration?
<Supposedly not, I do have my doubts, though have not quantified them.>
I read that person's post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50% percent change, dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks.
I am still combating ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to redose with each water change?
<Yes, prorated of course.>
Could get pricey, no?
<Comparative to other treatment and depending on the source it could, but it works!>
Thanks for your assistance, Scott, I'm very anxious to try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs suffer in the copper.
<They do.>
Elise
<Scott V.>

Chloroquine Phosphate Source 10/28/08
Hi Crew,
<Matt.>
Thanks for all you do for the hobby! I have noticed recently on the 'dailies' that Bob is very excited about the prospects of Chloroquine phosphate as a treatment for Ich and the like. I was interested in finding out where this medication may be available for future reference, so I did a bit of googling (not sure that's a word lol) and found that it is the active ingredient in a medication named Avlocor (in the UK at least). Avlocor is an anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is obtainable without a prescription at the following link -
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_1_3474.html
-for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so how much would an effective dose be?
<It should work out fine. 10 mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can be had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the know" LFS keeping some on hand.>
Thanks for your hard work and commitment,
Matt.
<Welcome and thank you, Scott V.>
<BTW, thank you very much for sharing your finds. Scott V.>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate Source 10/29/08
Hi Scott,
<Hey there Matt.>
Thanks for the response. The cost of these tablets is £1.89 (~$3.10) for a pack of 20, 250mg tablets.
<Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo much here in the U.S.>
If my math is correct this works out at 3.7 pence (~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or cheap as I am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks it.
<Tis cheap, for my area!>
Maybe it's easier in the US (I'm in the UK).
<Is prescription as a drug from my knowledge.>
At 10mg/l recommended dosage, I presume the easiest way to dose it would be to dissolve a 250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and use this for start-up water in a hospital tank and subsequent water changes. What do you think?
<This could work, yes.>
I also asked about its use, in case there were any other ingredients in this 'designed for human's' tablet that would mal-affect fish and/or inverts. Do you think there are?
<Doubtful, more like fillers and binders.>
How effective would you consider this as a treatment for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo?
<Very effective in my experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this drug is photo sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.>
Thanks for your time,
Matt.
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08
Well, folks. Thought I'd tell you a story and present you with a new spin on and old issue and throw an idea at you.
<Ok>
First, the trials. I have written you in the past for advice for taking a tank through a power outage lasting several days, and due to Hurricane Ike, we had an opportunity to put this to test. I am glad to report that this was a success! Using a 6000 watt generator, I was able to run the filters for one to two hours every 5 to 6 hours to keep the tank 'breathing' (Also running refrigerator, freezer, TV on occasion, some box fans, and a window unit in the bedroom..). I am proud to say that I had cold beer throughout our outage.
<There is something to this>
but I digress. When the tank temp seemed to be creeping up a bit high, I would put a 2 liter bottle of ice in the sump while the filters were on, cooling the water a bit. After 5 days, we finally got power back, and all fish were alive and in good health. so it would seem.
Not sure if it was the absence of lighting for 5 days, or the fluctuations in temperature, but the fish were stressed of course. and a single fish contracted ick. Now, a quick recap is that we decided we had a 'subclinical' ick infestation, which was fine as long as it stayed 'sub'.
Months ago I had purchased an Atlantic Blue Tang, which has done just fine with it's tankmates. Those are a Passer Angel, Lunare Wrasse, Yellow Tang, Tomato Clown, two damsels, and a cleaner wrasse that has defied it's life expectancy. The ABT is the only fish now that has contracted ick (of course it's present in the entire tank. why the other fish are so resistant, I could not tell you).
<Previous good care, genetic heritage>
I have been treating this tank with Quinine Sulfate.
<Do try Chloroquine phosphate next time...>
we went through an initial treatment, the ick remained, we are now in day 5 of a 9 day treatment. I still have signs of ick on the ABT in day five. Prior to treatment, I set up my 20 gallon tank and put as much LR as possible in there, along with a chocolate chip (been with me for years), a serpent, and sand sifting starfish, copepods, along with as many snails as I could find and remove. The quinine is quite effective on them, since unfortunately I had to remove a number of snails from the main tank after they were deceased and revealed. This 20 gallon tank will remain fallow for at least another two to three weeks (already been over two).
I am beginning to wonder how effective this Quinine will be on the ick remaining in the main tank. Basically, I have a 200g fish tank devoid of life, with the exception of a) the fish, b) the living bacteria in the rocks, and c) the ick. Here's the dilemma. I am formulating a plan c ( the a. was the subclinical existence, the b. is the quinine). Copper is no option since we do not want copper absorbed in the rock and silicone, etc.
I have purchased with dread a bottle of Quick Cure (formalin & Mal. Green) and it sits atop the tank leering at me, still in it's packaging. Long ago, I had used it with good results, then not knowing it's dark side. Here I am faced again with a possibility of using it. If I use it, I can get it out with carbon, water changes, and Polyfilters, I think. Tangs though, are sensitive to it, yes?
<More so than other species... formalin is a general biocide... crosslinks peptides (longer versions of which are proteins)... all life>
I've thought about dips/baths, but this is really pointless if there is ick left in the tank. To fallow the tank would require another tank of great size to house these fish for another 4 to 6 weeks, again not an option, especially when you're looking at treating sensitive tangs with the same medications anyhow. So I am considering the Formalin at half strength, wondering if this would even be effective in a partial dose.
<Mmm, no to partial dosing>
Also, for your readers, I did use something I had written about a while back, ParaGuard by Seachem. I can only say that it is not effective with this 'resistant' strain of ick I have. perhaps it would be in other circumstances.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for the report Thomas. BobF>

Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08
Chloroquine phosphate? Hmm.... I have never heard of this. Is there a common name for the product, or know where it's available? I'll do a search for it and see what I can find as well.
<Search WWM re...>
Would you recommend the Quick Cure as a course of action, and if so, any specific precautions in respect to my situation?
<See WWM re Formalin and Malachite...>
Thanks again, Bob. I don't get to write as often due to lack of problems,
but I always enjoy the replies...
Thomas Roach
<BobF>

Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like...  10/17/08
Been reading... and reading... and reading. My wife is a Vet Tech and I'm having her ask the Doc if he has the Chloroquine Phosphate. I've been calling around to local LFS's and I can imagine the blank stares that accompany the vocal responses. One recommended something called Kordon's Ick Attack or some herbal remedy. What a poor bit of advice. I remember you asking one of your readers if they would want to treat their child with tea tree oil if sick, and I thought that was such a good analogy that I now tell people the same thing. I think that if her Doc can obtain the CP, I might give it a go, but I have no clue as to what form it would come in or what dose to administer... He's treated horses, dogs, sea lions, etc..., but fish? I don't know.
<Mmm, there are a bunch of vet's that "cross over" to exotics, including aquatic animals... and Chloroquine IS the latest and greatest...>
As for the Quick Cure, of course no previous situation matches mine exactly, but that is to be expected.
<Look to the ingredients>
It seems to be an effective treatment if administered carefully, I'm worried now about it's effect on the biological filter.
<Destroys>
There seem to be mixed opinions on the subject. And then, if you add one drop per gallon, but only do a 25% water change, wouldn't adding another drop per gallon for the next treatment overdose the medication?
<Mmm, not likely... the ingredients... are quite transient... get "used up" quickly. B>
Seems a bit risky if you ask me. Tonight I need to do a 25% water change and administer the last Quinine dose, so I have three more days to decide.
I can tell that the Quinine does have some effect... without it, the tang has ick every morning. I have not seen it, or at least seen it in great quantity, since the treatment began. I just wonder why it returns if the medicine kills it.
<Mmm, a few poss. The intermediates are shielded most likely>
Thomas Roach

Re: Ich Treatment  10/17/08
I have read the FAQs on Chloroquine and I placed a order through an online company, but they called today and stated that they cannot ship the item to a residential address. Do you have any confirmed sites that can send the prescription without a Rx from a doctor? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
<I'd try your local veterinarian. BobF>

My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading  – 10/10/08
Greetings ,
<Salutations>
My fish are infested with ich. I currently have them in a 10 gallon tank, and am treating them with copper. I should have a larger tank as there is a Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang , Hippo Tang, Flame Angel, and a Bicolor Angel all sharing mouse 10 gallon quarantine tank.
<... dangerous... too much life period, physio- and psycho-logically squeezed in here>
The copper treatment is about 5-7 days,
<I would not use copper on Tangs or Centropyge... Do (quickly) read about Chloroquine use here>
which hopefully will cure the fish.
<Mmm... too likely not... hard to keep a physiological dose up in such a setting... and too toxic...>
However, ich is still present in the display tank,
<Yes>
and is bound to re-infect the fish if I put them back into the tank, which means that I should leave the display tank empty without fish for a while.
<Correct>
My question is, how long?
<At least four weeks... longer, better>
I read about 31 days, but then again, I read that the ich can remain alive for months even without a host present.
<Can>
I am going to raise the temperature to 82-85 in the main tank, but am concerned about the livestock remaining in the tank which are two lettuce Nudibranch, one scooter blenny (which we have not been able to catch), one Coral Banded Shrimp, too cleaner shrimp, about 80 snails, several red leg crabs, a Sally Lightfoot, and a wonderful, slithery white ribbon-like eel.
<... the eel is/will act as a reservoir host here... Do you realize this?>
Which of these critters is susceptible to ich? I have read that eels are somewhat resistant, is this true?
<Yes>
I do not want to go through the procedure of leaving this tank fallow for however long is necessary, only to put the fish back in for them to get re-infested.
<... Understood>
I really appreciate your help and advice with this problem.
Best regards,
Jeff
<Mmm, well... T'were it me, I would NOT treat the families of fishes mentioned with Copper for Cryptocaryon... and NOT in such a small volume... the Eel needs to be removed... and you need to read re the use of Quinine cpd.s... Stat! Bob Fenner>

Re: My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading Chloroquine  – 10/10/08
Advice taken Bob, thank you very much for your prompt reply.
Best regards,
Just Castaldo
<I am very excited to find this anti malarial being found to be of such great use... and look forward to the price dropping, its availability improving with increased interest. Cheers, BobF>