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FAQs on Quinine Compounds Use in Aquariums
Related Articles: Use of Biological
Cleaners, Aquatic Surgery,
The Three Sets of Factors That Determine Livestock Health/Disease,
Related FAQs: Medications/Treatments 1,
Medications/Treatments 2,
Medications/Treatments 3,
Antibiotics/Antimicrobials,
Anthelmintics/Vermifuges/Dewormers,
Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates,
Epsom/Other Salts,
Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan
Compounds, Garlic,
Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce, other shams...),
Malachite Green, Mercury
Compounds/Topicals, Methylene Blue,
Metronidazole, Sulfas,
Treating Disease,
Treatment Tanks,
Medications/Treatments II,
Treating Parasitic Disease,
Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease,
Garlic Use, Antibiotic Use, Marine
Disease 1, Puffer Disease, |
Chloroquine phosphate
Greenex:
Malachite Green & Quinine HCL (Aquatronics)
Quinine Sulfate:
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ |
Re: Hyposalinity, ORP
and Raffles B/F 11/3/09
Thanks for all the great help once again. Quick follow-up...
Should I use Chloroquine phosphate (CP) in the treatment tank now "just
to be safe", or should I wait to see if there are any sure signs of ich?
<If I had it on hand, I would administer it>
I'm just about done with the hypo treatment, so I wouldn't want to
subject the fish to longer time in QT-like conditions for another month
if unnecessary. One of the FAQs suggested not using hyposalinity with
CP. Do you agree with this?
<Can add stress... but if all the fish livestock are in good health
otherwise...>
If so, I'll need to take a week or so to up the salinity before starting
CP.
<Okay>
If I go ahead and use CP in the treatment tank, is it necessary to
perform a bath before returning the fish to the display?
<Not necessary, no>
Also, in the treatment tank, I had put in some sand and a few live rocks
to make the fish comfortable and to give a head start on the bacteria
since I was adding so many fish to a new startup (also had to use
Stability and Prime and plenty of water changes until the ammonia and
nitrites were down to zero). Lighting has been very low (and I'll turn
off the tank lights entirely during treatment), so there's not much in
the way of
algae. Should I remove the sand and/or rocks before using the CP?
<I would not. The chance, likely loss of biofiltration there is
appreciable>
Or is it safe to leave the sand and rocks, since there are no
inverts/corals and little algae in the treatment tank?
<I would, yes>
I guess I will find a new home for the lion (sad). Even a neon cleaner
goby would be at risk.
<Mmm, actually, not too likely.>
I saw a recommendation of 2 cleaner shrimp per 50g. If I wanted to get a
neon goby as well, do I need to scale back the number of cleaner shrimp,
or does it not matter, since neither the goby nor the shrimp rely
exclusively on parasites to feed?
<Up to you>
I was thinking about 6 L. amboinensis, 2 L. debelius and 1 G. oceanops.
Thanks again!
Sean
<Welcome. BobF>
RE: Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F
Wow! That was fast, and VERY helpful. Thanks again!
<Welcome. B>
Re:
Harlequin Tusk, hlth. Quinine cpd. sources – 11/03/09
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am interested in trying quinine compounds
to treat crypt. Do fish stores supply it or is it available from drug
stores?
What are some brands available? Thanks again.
John Catanzariti
<Can be procured through a human MD, veterinarian, or some specialty
etailers... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
BobF>
Copper and quarantine tank: A textbook opportunity to use
Quinine. 8/23/2009
Hi Crew.
<Hi Claudio.>
First of all thank you for the wonderful site.
<Our pleasure.>
I have a question on copper use and quarantine tanks.
<Shoot.>
Here is the situation. I upgraded from a 40G SW tank to a 180G. The 180G
has ~ 160 lb of rocks that have been cured for 1-1/2 months on a
separate vat. The 180G has been running for about a week cycling with a
cooked shrimp. It has not gone through the ammonia spike, nitrite,
nitrate process yet. In the meantime I took down the old tank that was
succumbing to Cyano and hair algae (I have never been able to keep NO3
and PO4 low for some reason). I saved the live rocks, cleaned them and
placed on a separate container with a powerhead and no light.
<Thank you for these details.>
I placed the fish ( a yellow tang and a clown fish) into a 20G
quarantine tank with a hang on filter and a remora C hang on filter. The
quarantine tank was properly cycled and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 2
ppm nitrate.
<All sounds good so far.>
My fish at some point years ago had ich, they got over it and never had
it again. I would hate to introduce ich on the new 180g and probably my
fish are colonized by it even without evident infection.
<it is a safe bet it is in your tank, as well as everyone else who keeps
a SW tank It is just a matter of keeping the infection under control.>
For this reason I decided to quarantine the fish and treat them with
copper (Cupramine)
for 4 weeks prior to introducing them on the new tank. The fish have
been on the quarantine tank for 1 week without copper and the water
parameters were unchanged from the one mentioned above.
<Generally not the best of practices. I can understand your rationale
for doing so, but copper is very stressful on fish.>
As I went to buy Cupramine I saw a beautiful powder brown tang ~ 3" and
since I was going to quarantine the old fish I decided to go ahead and
buy it. It is a good specimen, healthy, actively swimming and feeding
well. Here I should have done more research since it turned out to be A.
Nigricans and not A. Japonicus and I now know the difference in
adaptability to a captive environment between the two species.
<You are in for a challenge.>
I decided to give the new fish some time to adapt prior to adding
copper.
For 3 days all was well. The new tang had a good color, was swimming
very actively, eating well flake food from my hands. It had a few light
turf war with the yellow tang but after about 1 day they stopped
bothering each other. About 12h after introduction in the QT, the new
tang showed 1 or 2 small white spots, I was not sure if it was ich or
just some mucus. Those went away the 3 day. As said everything was well
so thinking it was ich on day 5 I decided to go with the original plan
and start copper.
<At least now there is a rationale for doing so.>
I added Cupramine as per manufacture instruction and I tested a level at
0.3 ppm. The following day all 3 fish were acting stressed. The new tang
coloration faded and was looking more stressed than the other fish. I
tested the water and I had a spike in ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Ammonia was at 0.5 ppm, nitrite at 0.5 ppm and nitrate at 10 ppm.
<Killed the biological filter.>
I went ahead and did a 50% water change with aged SW I prepared few days
prior just in case.
<Excellent planning ahead on your part.>
The following day I still had some ammonia (0.2) much less nitrite (0.1)
and almost no copper. The older fish seem to have recovered to their
normal. The PB tang is regaining its coloration, is swimming more
actively and runs to feed and eat really well whereas barely feed the
previous day.
<An encouraging sign..
I did another 30% water change today and things are looking better.
<Good.>
I believe the copper has killed the nitrifying bacteria and this is the
reason for the spikes in ammonia, NO2 and NO3.
<You are correct.>
The question is how do I proceed from here? I was planning to give the
fish some time to recover from this insult.
<You have another, more expensive, but less stressful option - quinine>
Do water changes to keep water condition as pristine as I can. I am
concerned though that as I re dose copper the situation is going to
deteriorate again. I am also not sure if the PBT is also particularly
sensitive to copper.
<No more than other tangs, but add copper on top of stress.>
I really would like to go through the planned copper treatment. I do not
want to risk bringing ich to the new tank.
<Again, this is an opportunity to use quinine. You can read about its
application here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm There is
also a link to an online retailer that sells it. You want Quinine
Sulfate.>
Sorry for the long post, I would really appreciate some help here.
<Since you now have ich, you do have to treat. I am a big fan of Quinine
- It is more expensive, but it is much less stressful than copper.>
PS. One more question about the old live rocks. They are beautiful rocks
and I would like to be able to use them on the new set-up, however since
the old rocks were once covered with Cyano and hair algae, I am afraid
to bring those scourges to the new tank. Now they are looking clean. Is
there a way to "de contaminate" them so that they can be reused?
<Quinine works well here as well, will kill Cyano.>.
Thanks Again
<My pleasure. I would like to take a moment and commend you on your
practices. Everything you have done thus far has been 'by the book'>
Claudio
<MikeV>
Re: Copper and quarantine tank: A textbook opportunity to use
Quinine. 8/25/2009
<Hi Caludio>
Thank You Mike for the answer.
<My pleasure.>
I bought Quinine Sulfate and I'll try it as soon as it arrives.
<Excellent, I think you will be happy with the results.>
In the meantime hopefully the fish will fully recover and the biological
filter will get reestablished.
<It will - you can add a good piece of live rock to the system to help
it along.>
I read the FAQ on quinine sulfate and there are different recommended
regimens.
<Yes.>
The prevalent one seems to be 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons, repeat in 3
days with a 25% water change in the interim, repeat 3 times (9 day
treatment) then keep the fish in quarantine for the remaining time to 4
weeks. While treating, no skimmer, no carbon, only ambient light. Is
this the plan you recommend or do you suggest anything different?
<This is the method that has met with the most success and the one I
would use.>
Thanks
<As always, my pleasure. Do write back and let us know how it all works
out. We are really trying to increase our 'library' on quinine.>
Claudio
<MikeV>
disease help... Retail, whlse, competence
7/23/09
Hello
<Salud>
I brought in an Asfur angel, an Imperator, two Copperbanded Butterfly,
part of the initial order for our new store from one of the "top" LA
wholesalers.
<... Okay...>
They were put into 3 separate 30 gallon quarantine systems. Within 48
hours the two angels and one copper developed Lymphocystis. The
Imperator additionally showed what I thought at the time was several
spots of Crypto in the same pectoral fin displaying the Lymphocystis.
One butterfly also showed a few spots, as well as the Asfur. Everybody
was given copper (Cupramine following manufactures dosage level checked
daily with Salifert kit) A week later, no response to copper as far as
the spots,
<So... what had you learned?>
and I noticed that after two weeks all the original spots are intact.
None seem to rupture. Now yesterday The second butterfly literally from
one hour to the next showed a raised patch of scales and heavy
breathing.
<Copper poisoning, plus stress, equals...?>
The patch began to show redness and I moved him to a smaller hospital
tank with copper and added Kanamycin sulfate, a couple of hours later he
was gone. The other fish all behave normally and eat well but with no
improvement in the spots. I do not have a microspore available right now
or I would sample to
the spots to confirm crypto. Is it possible that it is not crypto?
Should I try quinine sulfate?
<Not at all likely Cryptocaryon... and why would you use a Quinine?>
Any Ideas?
<All sorts>
I have been miserable with the fish I have received. Until recently I
only used trans shippers and have always been aggressive with treating
diseases with tremendous success. Because it is a new store we felt
we could get a more complete cross section of fish by using a good
wholesaler and we did our research,
<Mmm, not obvious from this email... I would NOT treat large angels or
Chelmons with chelated copper... I WOULD have dipped/bathed all
new/incoming fishes... per the protocols listed on WWM>
but now the number of losses and the difficulty in treatment is very
upsetting. I even confronted them with
the fact that at least one fish was shipped with visible parasites. No
actual response.
<Let's not banter about here. Please name the companies involved>
Any help will certainly be appreciated. We take the survival of the fish
very seriously, and although we are a new store, I have been doing
aquariums including reefs since the mid 80.s
Thanks
Gabriel
<Gabe... do state whether you'd like your business, the wholesaler not
to be named. Bob Fenner>
Re: disease help... SW, crypt
f'? 7/24/09
Hi Bob
Thank you for replying, as for the store we are aquarium encounters, In
New York. The fish are from SDC, they are certainly great people and I
know Eric is an especially nice guy and very knowledgeable but I also
know they are huge and things can get past. I don't want to get into any
problems with them but I need to know what to do in the future as far as
disease, Quarantine etc. As far as fresh water bath/dip I always do that
for every fish these included.
<My input re SOP for fish and invert. groups is posted, has occurred in
periodicals and books for decades>
As far as the quinine sulfate that was the suggestion of national Fish
Pharmacy. The truth is I had run into crypto like diseases years ago
that did not respond to Cu and I was very successful with Quinacrine
hydrochloride (ala Dr. Edward Kingsford).
<Yowzah! We do go back a fair piece. I am also a huge fan of Quinine
compounds for protozoan complaints>
Right now this whole project (opening the store) has drained me
physically and mentally, and Oh yeah monetarily.
<I do understand this... Steady on>
I Have three partners who financed most of it, but I did everything from
scratch myself from woodworking to acrylic and all design, engineering
you name it. We had several delays and have had to by several month rent
without opening , more pressure. We are trying to open within a week and
everyone who has come in has loved it. It looks more like a small public
aquarium than a typical fish store. I have right now about 120 aquariums
running with close to half salt water, we also have a hands on science
discovery center which we are finishing up.
<Nice>
I am embarrassed right now to admit that my background is in marine
science and my independent research during my undergraduate work was in
marine fish parasitology and I teach college Bio.
<... why embarrassed?>
I expected the answers you gave me, so if I know what I am doing, why am
I having all these problems and making stupid mistakes?
<Really... does happen>
Maybe I am just plain exhausted from 10 -14 hour days in the store while
keeping up with my "real job" I am also under tremendous pressure from
my partners and I don't have the luxury of being scientific about things
with them breathing on me.
My microscope should be here shortly as well as my other lab stuff and I
hope to get back on track.
Why am I telling you this?
<Because we are human... is there more?>
I respect your opinion and advice, and I have no one to vent to, that
knows a drop about what I am doing or going through.
Thank you for your time. I let you know what happens with the fish, I
hope to have the opportunity to meet you.
Gabriel
<We shall meet. BobF>
Re: disease help, SW, comm., Protozoan 7/26/2009
Hello
I have my lab equipment, the fish I first wrote you about definitely
have crypto, as well as some other yet unidentified ecto parasite embed
in the fins. Slightly larger cysts slightly more translucent than
crypto.
In the meanwhile, three more butterfly fish as well as a lemon peel a
chevron tang and an arc eyed hawk all have definite crypto. Now that I a
whole central system infected, what do you recommend, according to
national fish pharm.
I should treat the whole system with quinine sulfate,
<This or Quinacrine Hydrochloride would be my choice>
I do not want to use any copper if possible, and in truth the copper as
I wrote earlier did not work as yet, except to kill the Copperbanded
butterfly.
Please any help is greatly appreciated, I refuse to become one of the
stores hose goal is to sell fish quick before they die, or just make
them someone else's problem
Gabriel
<Do try either Quinine cpd. Gabriel... System-wide... Do you have Ed
Noga's book handy? BobF> Re: disease help some additional info
to the email just sent 7/26/2009
Hello again
I forgot to mention all the fish that I found to be infected were given
dips, I also have to add a Kole tang and declivis butterfly to the list.
They are all on one central system but in different aquariums Help!
Gabriel
<Could well be that the Protozoans were too far embedded to be excised
by dip/baths... Does happen. BobF> Re: disease help some
additional info to the email just sent, Crypt., Quinine – 07/28/09
Bob,
Thank you for the help, I treated the whole system with the quinine
sulfate, as I did not want the water in the stock tanks to turn yellow
and I also believe that it is less light sensitive. One question, I have
a piece of
base or live rock in almost every tank, I removed most but left some
pieces to see what would happen, I assumed the quinine would wipe out
the rock, so far after 24 hrs the coralline algae is losing its color,
but the worms and large amphipods are wriggling and swimming about on
and under the rock. I thought they would go first.
<Mmm, no... Quinines mainly affect Protozoans...>
If they should have, could it be the med. is under dosed or otherwise
ineffective?
<Other biota will reduce the effectiveness, or put another way, more
medicant will have to be added to have physiological effect if there is
more biomass/metabolic interaction>
So far all the fish seem to be doing well with exception of a Kole tang
who is re-infested 48 hrs after a dip, and 24 hrs after adding the med.
I am following the dosage recommended by National Fish Pharm.
Gabriel
<I'd stay with their protocol. BobF>
Quinine Sulfate Dosage
5/30/09
Please help.
<Ryan, I would like to apologize (Sara, post or don't post this, I don't
care). There are a few in the "Crew" that just let queries rot in their
boxes. Something such as fish disease and treatment are very time
sensitive. I again apologize for the slow response here.>
I got my Quinine Sulfate in the mail today as you suggested. I bought
"Crypt-Pro" but I see that nationalfishpharm has a couple different
directions how to dose/treat the tank. What have you found to be
successful? On their website is says to dose 1/4 tsp per 10-gallons one
time and then leave it be for 5-7 days.
<No.>
On the jar itself, it says to dose 1/8 tsp everyday and do 25% water
change every day too.
<This is what I would follow.>
When I called them on the phone they said add 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and
leave in tank for 5-7 days with no water changes.
<Dang, nothing like consistency!>
Everywhere I look they have a different treatment plan. What way do you
think is best? Thanks.
<I would follow the directions on the label. There are a few problems
here. First is how "concentrated" the actual powder is. I cannot speak
for this particular product. The next problem is there are no reasonable
test kits available to aquarist for testing the levels of this
medication,
but this is the case with many other treatments too. The third issue is
the compound does degrade, particularly photosensitive. Basically dosing
what the bottle says is going to give you the most effective shot with
this treatment. You will constantly be dosing to replace what is used or
degraded, while doing water changes to keep the level in check should it
build up. Do be sure to have no substrate/rock in the system, it will
adsorb the quinine sulfate to a point. And of course, no carbon or
chemical filtration. Best of luck, Scott V.>
Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage
5/31/09
Scott,
Thank you very much for the reply.
<Very welcome.>
Apology accepted, normally you guys are extremely fast at responding.
And I couldn't be too upset even if you didn't respond because you have
offered me plenty of free advice in the past.
<Thank you.>
Ok, I will do as you and the label says, 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and 25%
daily water change. If the quinine sulfate is photo-sensitive maybe I
should keep the lights on just a couple hours a day or so??
<At most, I would likely rely on the ambient lighting in the room, turn
the lights on only when you want to inspect the fish.>
I am in the process of switching my salt over from natural seawater to
Tropic Marin Pro Reef in my 180-gallon tank. I guess on the bright side
of
these daily 25% water changes in my hospital tank is that if I take
5-gallons of natural seawater out of my display tank and put that
5-gallons
into my QT daily, it will give my display a quicker switch to the tropic
Marin pr and my coral should appreciate that.
<A good idea.>
Do you know if Quinine Sulfate is safe to use with Amquel+ or any
ammonia/nitrite neutralizer?
<I really do not know, a good question. The manufacturer does warn it
will interfere with many medications, but the quinine sulfate is not
listed.
But it is not a "mainstream" med per se either. I am going to put this
back into the general crew folder for input from somebody that may know
the
answer.>
Although I had a hard cycle in my QT which took about 7-weeks, I am
registering .25 ammonia in the QT because the bio load is big for a
20-gallon QT. I know you can't use Amquel+ with copper, I sure hope it
is ok with Quinine Sulfate otherwise I may have to do hyposalinity which
will be an even bigger pain in the butt. If this Quinine Sulfate I
purchased works, I plan on doing it prophylactic-ly on every new fish
for the 5-7 day period. I had to tear my reef apart (I don't want to do
this ever again) to catch my 4" powder brown tang.
<No fun!>
The 2 x 2" clownfish were easy to catch and the 4" hippo tang wasn't too
hard. All of them in a 20-gallon is pushing the limits.
<Wow, yes. Do think about even investing in a second quarantine tank or
just some sort of cheap holding vessel.>
Daily pwc and Amquel+ may be the only way to keep them alive. One more
question please. What do you think the chances of getting crypt from
coral frags is after doing a typical coral dip in Revive and putting
into display?
<Very little in an otherwise healthy system.>
Thanks again
<Welcome, Scott V.>
Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage
5/31/09
Scott,
Thank you very much for the reply.
<Very welcome.>
Apology accepted, normally you guys are extremely fast at responding.
And I couldn't be too upset even if you didn't respond because you have
offered me plenty of free advice in the past.
<Thank you.>
Ok, I will do as you and the label says, 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and 25%
daily water change. If the quinine sulfate is photo-sensitive maybe I
should keep the lights on just a couple hours a day or so??
<At most, I would likely rely on the ambient lighting in the room, turn
the lights on only when you want to inspect the fish.>
I am in the process of switching my salt over from natural seawater to
Tropic Marin Pro Reef in my 180-gallon tank. I guess on the bright side
of these daily 25% water changes in my hospital tank is that if I take
5-gallons of natural seawater out of my display tank and put that
5-gallons into my QT daily, it will give my display a quicker switch to
the tropic Marin pr and my coral should appreciate that.
<A good idea.>
Do you know if Quinine Sulfate is safe to use with Amquel+ or any
ammonia/nitrite neutralizer?
<I really do not know, a good question. The manufacturer does warn it
will interfere with many medications, but the quinine sulfate is not
listed.
But it is not a "mainstream" med per se either. I am going to put this
back into the general crew folder for input from somebody that may know
the answer.>
Although I had a hard cycle in my QT which took about 7-weeks, I am
registering .25 ammonia in the QT because the bio load is big for a
20-gallon QT. I know you can't use Amquel+ with copper, I sure hope it
is
ok with Quinine Sulfate otherwise I may have to do hyposalinity which
will be an even bigger pain in the butt. If this Quinine Sulfate I
purchased works, I plan on doing it prophylactically on every new fish
for the 5-7 day period. I had to tear my reef apart (I don't want to do
this ever again) to catch my 4" powder brown
tang.
<No fun!>
The 2 x 2" clownfish were easy to catch and the 4" hippo tang wasn't too
hard. All of them in a 20-gallon is pushing the limits.
<Wow, yes. Do think about even investing in a second quarantine tank or
just some sort of cheap holding vessel.>
Daily pwc and Amquel+ may be the only way to keep them alive. One more
question please. What do you think the chances of getting crypt from
coral frags is after doing a typical coral dip in Revive and putting
into
display?
<Very little in an otherwise healthy system.>
Thanks again
<Welcome, Scott V.>
Re:
Quinine..sulfate or phosphate??? 5/11/09
Mr. Fenner,
Thanks for the response. I read the link you listed above which had lots
of good info. My main confusion is why do you recommend CP over QS?
Thanks again.
<Is more "broad spectrum"... treats more "things" more effectively.
BobF>
Quinine..sulfate or
phosphate??? 5/11/09
Hi Crew,
<Simon>
For the poster to this query today there is a couple of very cheap
sources here in the UK - I don't know if that is it useful to them or
not:
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_
1_3474.html
http://www.pills2u.co.uk/5188/-AVLOCLOR-Tablets.html?referrer=froogle&utm_so
urce=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=pid5188to
Thanks to all!!!
Simon Trippick
<Thank you for this valuable input. For folks looking in the U.S., fishy
pharmacy: http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/symptoms.html
is a ready source. Bob Fenner>
Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank
5/7/09
Hi Bob and Crew -
<Kevin>
I spend at least 8-10 hours per week reading on your site and absolutely
love and appreciate all of the great advice. I have only been in the
hobby for about 6 months and already have a 300 Gallon Reef, a 60 Gallon
FOWLR, and a 34 Gallon Species with a Carpet Anemone and one False
Percula. You helped me identify a Nudibranch about a month ago and I
have since invested in another 30 gallon tank for quarantine and
treatment.
However, like many of your readers, I was devastatingly delinquent in
adding the quarantine tank. So, today I write you regarding my 300
Gallon Reef System. I have spend many hours reading on your site about
Crypto and other parasites and have recently added a Powder Blue Tang
from my 60 Gallon to the 300 Gallon reef system. A week later, I lost my
Puffer and Volitans Lion in the 60 gallon tank to Ich. Now, the Powder
Blue Tang is showing signs of Ich and has evidently spread the love. My
5" Foxface Lo is also exhibiting signs of 'Black Ich'.
<This, as you likely are aware, is not "that" deleterious>
I know that the drill is to capture and treat all of the fish. This is
not possible in this tank. Even if I were to remove all the rock, many
of the fishes would hide in the substrate,
<Mmm, they can be sand-sifted out>
etc. However, last night I ran across a post where I inferred that
treating the display tank is better than nothing at all. I am afraid
that this will be my only option. So, my plan is as follows:
1) Remove all of my Coral and place in a large quarantine tank2) I have
ordered Chloroquine Phosphate based on recommendation by WWM and the
book "The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook" This is truly the least
lethal medication for the fish and the best for a display, right?
<Currently likely the most useful for Protozoans, including
Amyloodinium>
3) I will remove as many of my snails and crabs as possible<Mmm... this
antimalarial (Aralen) is quite toxic to a range of invertebrates... and
there are, assuredly, a huge mix of these in and about your rock,
substrate... These may be killed (along with any algae), resulting in a
toxic cascade effect... Again, it would be much BETTER to remove the
fishes, treat them elsewhere>
4) I will treat the display tank for 10 days with 40mg per gallon of
Chloroquine Phosphate
My question is, at the end of this treatment, assuming all of the fish
look fine:
1) How long do I wait to add the coral and inverts back
<Three weeks or so>
2) Do I change 50% water and add charcoal to rid the Chloroquine? Is
this sufficient?
<Activated carbon and Polyfilter should do it>
3) I believe that I have read in several places that the necessary
bacteria should not be affected by this treatment, is this still your
experience?
<Yes... however... the above reference...>
Is there anything that I have overlooked that may cause me problems
either immediately; or, long term?
<Turn off your skimmer, and UV, remove any other chemical filtrants...>
Thank you very much for all of your help!
- Kevin
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
[Fwd: Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank]
I left out my water parameters, etc:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate less than 5
SG 1.027
PH 8.3
<These are fine. I'd like to add the possibility of your delivering the
CP via foods... One formula calls for 3.7 grams of CP dissolved in a gel
powder mix of 300 grams... this mixed with water, foods... less toxic to
non-targeted "other" life. BobF>
Crypt help!!!! 3-26-09
Hi guys,
<Evening>
Love the website...I use it lots.
<It is superb...so do I>
Unfortunately, this time I have a question that I need a little more help
with. I have a boxfish (Ostracion cubicus) with a really bad case of
crypt....(I think).
<A better diagnosis than "I think" would be helpful>
I've had him for about 6 months and he's always been really healthy and
happy.
<Good to hear, not an easy species to keep. I have an O. cubicus myself>
About a week ago, I went down to feed him, and found him absolutely covered
in little white bumps. I've read all of the remedies for crypt on your
site, but my problem is that I can't really use any of them because I also
have a banded bamboo shark, a porcupine puffer, a spotted puffer, and a
hermit crab in the tank.
<I also have a bamboo shark, cute when they're little, but fast growers and
they need a big tank!>
I know that if he gets stressed he can release a deadly toxin, which is
why I am unsure about moving him into a quarantine tank.
<All the more reason to do so>
I have noticed a couple spots on the puffers, but they aren't nearly as
bad. I've been treating the tank with Ich cure for a few days, but he just
seems to be getting worse.
<What are the ingredients in "ich cure"? I recommend ceasing treatment and
performing a large (50% +) water change>
I've also been adding some garlic in with his food, but that doesn't seem
to be helping either.
<Garlic isn't a cure for anything>
He's still happy, and eating great, he just looks terrible all covered in
bumps. I guess my question is Do I risk moving him into a QT tank, or is
there some other treatment that is safe for the shark and the puffers? Any
help you could give me would be appreciated... I'm getting worried about
the little guy.
<I'm not sure how big your shark, puffers, and boxfish are, but treatment
in a QT tank is always recommended. If this is not feasible (water quality
could definitely be an issue here) then your only option will be to treat
the entire display tank. Your "miracle cure" in either case is going to be
the medication quinine sulfate, available from www.nationalfishpharm.com.
At the risk of sounding like a salesperson (I'm not, just a fan!), this is
the most effective crypt medication I've ever used, and is safe with
puffers and sharks. Order it, pay extra for overnight shipping, and treat
asap. Quinine sulfate is toxic to molluscs, and other invertebrates to a
lesser extent>
Thanks in advance!!
<Anytime>
Quinn
<M. Maddox>
Crypt help!!!! Part II 4-10-09
Hello again,
<Evening - sorry about the slow reply>
So I ordered the "miracle cure", and began treating the tank.
<I'm not sure I would call Quinine Sulfate a 'miracle cure', but it is
very effective>
Its been 3 days and the problem only seems to be getting worse. The
boxfish is so covered in white bumps that you can barely see his skin
anymore.
<Time for a freshwater dip>
My porcupine puffer has also taken a turn for the worst. I noticed after
I added the quinine sulfate that her eyes got all cloudy and she was
bumping into things.
<Possible a secondary bacterial infection>
She also stopped eating.
<Common in ill puffers>
Today, her eyes are completely white, and she is laying on the bottom,
breathing really hard. I have a feeling she isn't going to make it much
longer.
<You should definitely move both of the fish into QT and treat with
broad spectrum antibiotics in addition to the QS>
I have a hospital tank, but it is currently housing a panther grouper.
<Time for a second QT!>
I'm not sure what to do now....do I continue the treatments and water
changes with the quinine sulfate, or do I set up a new hospital tank,
wait for it to cycle, and move them all into there?
<The waste products can be negated with Amquel+ or Prime, this isn't the
time to be worrying about anything except getting the fish into a
treatment tank>
I have been using a UV sterilizer (I turned it off when treating with
quinine sulfate as per the instructions on the bottle), but that doesn't
seem to have helped either.
<Flow rate through the sterilizer?>
The shark and the dogface puffer still seem unaffected, but I feel
uneasy about leaving them in a tank that is so sick. I've done a whole
range of water tests and nothing is out of range, I don't know what to
do next.... please help!!!!!
<Move all fish into a QT tank, treat with quinine and antibiotics, and
leave your main tank fallow (fish-less) for at least 5 weeks>
Quinn
<Good luck! Mike Maddox>
Dosing instructions on Chloroquine Phosphate for ich??
2/16/08 Hi, Looked on your site and could not find the
answer. I have a 200 gallon saltwater tank with lots of live rock, a few
large angelfish and some other smaller fish (no corals). I have ich in
my tank and want to try the Chloroquine Phosphate powder....finally
found it on line at Fishchemical.com but don't know how to dose it. I
would like to dose it several times over a month so that it can kill
all of the ich swimmers as they hatch. <Mmm... really needs to be
administered outside the display tank... to discount interaction with
other materials> Found a dose in a book that was a one time only of 5
to 10 mg. per liter, but I need it to kill over an entire month to kill
all the ich. <A few protocols call for the dosage you mention,
applied every three days for three treatments> It seems to me that
this would require multiple dosing as the medication may degrade in the
system over time. I don't want to over dose and kill the fish, or under
dose and not kill the ich. I plan to remove 2/3 of my sand (with the
sand worms), and as many of my snails and crabs as I can find, and my
macro algae, and put them in a 40 gallon tank for 6 weeks to 2 months
until all the medication is out of the system and the ich has died off
in the removed sand. <... this really won't work. Again, you need to
remove, treat all fishes elsewhere> How does one dose this
medication? I will be getting it in two days and hope it will not be too
late. I hope the powder has the milligrams listed per given quantity. I
have a gram scale. Does anyone know if it kills coralline algae on the
rocks? Would it be better to not put the snails and sand worms back in
and just go snail-less and worm-less so that I can dose this medication
anytime I have a problem. If I don't put any of the old sand and stuff
back in there may not be a need for the snails as the algae would be all
dead?? Thank you in advance for any advice, Lesley in Houston
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm Bob
Fenner> Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage
2/13/09 I acquired a Kole recently, and put him into
quarantine where I've noticed two relatively small white patches on him.
About one month ago after reading Bob Fenner's writings here, I acquired
some Chloroquine phosphate from a Canadian pharmaceutical company. It
came in 250 mg tablets. My question is how to go about trading him.
The fish is in a 10 gallon quarantine tank with a seeded filter, but I
know that frequent water changes will be necessary. Specifically, how do
we administer the does which I believe is 10 mg/liter (380 mg/10 gallon
tank)? <You could "grind up" the tablet/s... with a pill crusher...
or have a pharmacist do this for you (grind, weigh)... "guess"/measure
as to about the right amount otherwise> This drug is not like copper.
We have no way of testing its level. As we will need to do water changes
from time to time, how can we be sure that the level is correct? <One
can only "guess-timate" presently. There is a broad range of efficacy,
safety> Your advice will be greatly appreciated as we would very much
like to save this fish. Thank you, Jeffrey Castaldo <And re
the "patches" period... I would not likely treat for this/these...
better to dip/bath and place this Ctenochaetus in your main display. Bob
Fenner> Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09
Based upon a dosage of 10 mg per 1 L, which is what I have read here,
380 mg (1.5 tablets) would be correct, and easy enough to attain
accurately with a pill cutter. <We are in agreement> However,
having just acquired this fish, I am curious as to why you recommend to
just dip/bath the fish and place it into my main display tank without
the usual 30 day quarantine I usually adhere to, and what is normally
stressed here on WWW. <This genus is "touchier" than "average"... and
that you state you have only a ten gallon to quarantine it in... My high
confidence opinion is that there is much less likelihood to be
transmittal of pests, parasites (excluded through preventative bath)
than subsequent damage to this specimen in a months isolation there>
Without a photograph, are you able to give me some insight as to what
those patches are? <Mmm, only guesses in either case. I have
collected Combtooth tangs in a few countries, though primarily in HI...
these are often hand-damaged through moving from hand netting (off a
barrier, mist net) to collecting/decomp. buckets... and later
processing... Often what one sees here are actual "fingerprints" on the
fishes' sides...> And when you recommend a dip/bath, are you
referring to plain buffered (8.4) freshwater, with Methylene blue,
Formalin, or? <I am referring to all of these possible protocols. I
would use pH adjusted FW, some MB and Formalin... the last with
heavy aeration> Also, I am still uncertain as how to go about keeping
the dose therapeutic when I need to make frequent water changes. I
suppose I could use Prime, but I am uncertain as to how to incorporate
that into the treatment. <A good question. I don't know either. Maybe
ask the folks at FishVet (.com)> I am sending this follow-up because
I do not fully understand, and want to administer the proper treatment.
Thank you very much for your assistance. Jeffrey Castaldo <A
pleasure to conspire with you, BobF> Re: Chloroquine
phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09 Thank you for clarifying
this to me, and for your excellent advice and honesty. I realize that
there is no clear-cut solution for all situations; many times we must
learn through trial and error. Best regards, Jeffrey Castaldo
<Ah, yes... am doing my best to share, warn folks of my too-many
errors... so they can avoid these trials. Cheers! BobF>
Urgent Quarantine... Quinine f' 1/24/09 Hello Crew,
<Kayla> A few days ago, I placed my marine fish in quarantine because
a few were displaying signs of ich. I have a Valentini puffer, six-line
wrasse, "powder brown"/white-cheek tang, hippo tang, and two percula
clowns. After much research, I decided to perform a freshwater dip with
formalin/malachite green and place into a 30 gallon quarantine with
hyposalinity (1.010) and 10 mg/L of Chloroquine phosphate. <Okay>
The first day went fine, but the second day the water became quite
cloudy. I have been testing the water qualities and have 0 ppm of
ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, with a pH of 8.3. Today, I found the
wrasse laying on the tank bottom respirating very rapidly. Again, the
ammonia (etc.) levels were all in check. A few hours later, the powder
brown was doing the same thing, with very rapid respiration. So, I
immediately did a 50% water change (with Chloroquine), but then decided
to put in a carbon filter in case the Chloroquine was the cause of their
problems. <Good moves... I'd also add more aeration> I fear I will
lose these guys. I am not sure what could be wrong; do you have any
ideas? <Mmm... some sort of proliferation of microbes... perhaps a
chemical interaction with the water, and?> Have you had experience
with Chloroquine causing this? <I have not> Do you have any
suggestions of what I can do quickly to save them? <Not quickly, no.
But doing what you have... water changes, adding carbon... should... and
I would look instead to restoring near NSW spg and using a copper cpd.
here... chelated...> I cannot move them back into the display tank
very fast since the specific gravity is significantly better. Thanks
in advance for your advice, Kayla <Thank you for sharing. Bob
Fenner> Re:
puffer/lionfish with ick : ( 1/21/09 I
read the article you asked me and many more. The treatment is working
and all ich appears to be gone. <Ahh!> The directions on the
quinine sulfate bottle are not that clear. they say to ad .25 tsp for
every ten gallons, once every three days with a 25% water change
in-between treatments. Then it says 3 consecutive treatments is equal to
a 9 day continual bath. then it goes on to the warning statements.
my question is what do i do after a 9 day continual bath? Do i stop
treatment and see if any ich appear? <Mmm, yes> Or do i keep
treating? <I would cease after the three exposures> Also the
puffer is still not eating. He will chase the food around and attempt to
bite it but then just let is go. <Not to worry...> Are spiny
burrfish (spiny box puffer via liveaquaria.com) especially hard to get
eating? <Sometimes, yes... and go on feeding strikes at times for no
apparent reason... Which you'd know had you searched on WWM, read before
writing...> What are your suggestions on the Quinine Sulfate and the
puffers "eating problems" thanks for all the help/info, you guys
have helped me save some very beloved fish, Mike <Please... I've
already referred you to where to educate yourself... Do go there. B>
Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s 12/29/08 Hi
WWM Crew, <Greg> Like so many other marine aquarists, I am having
a terrible time dealing with ich. <Ah, yes... a scourge. Likely one
of the chief reasons folks give up on the hobby... An issue/factor
that's been with "us" as long as the hobby has... And one that I
tried repeatedly (and haven't given up) addressing the trade re... See
my letter archived here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/ltrquartrdbiz.htm> I first
got the infestation in my 400 gallon, mostly FOWLR (I do have a couple
of shrimp, urchins, and an anemone), display tank back in July of this
year. I initially tried dealing with it by feeding food soaked in
Selcon/Garlic but things progressed to the point where I decided to
treat with Cupramine in a hospital tank. <No fun for sure> I
acquired a used 240 gallon acrylic tank and treated my fish for 28 days
with Cupramine which cured the ich. I then kept my fish for another 4
weeks in the hospital tank so that my display remained fallow for a
total of 8 weeks. Getting all my fish into the hospital tank was a huge
undertaking and included draining my display and removing 525 lbs of
live rock in order to catch the fish. <Ugghh!> My fish finally
went back into the display tank at the end of October. Things
initially looked good for 2-3 weeks when, to my surprise, the ich
returned. In the interim, I gave away the hospital tank thinking that,
with my 60 gallon quarantine tank I would never need such a large tank
for treatment again. At this point I am very frustrated. I have
thousands of dollars worth of very rare, expensive fish including a
prized Conspicuous Angel with Cryptocaryon. The fish are actually all
eating well/behaving normally, but they definitely have the disease.
At this point, having tried the copper/fallow approach I am ready to
treat my entire display tank, liverock included. Initially, I was
thinking of Cupramine but I am aware it would be nearly impossible to
get a therapeutic concentration with all of the live rock.
<Correct... I would not do this... use copper of any sort here> Also,
I would like to be able to return the inverts to the tank after
treatment. I have been reading about Quinine Sulphate available from
National Fish Pharmacy on your website. I have several questions
pertaining to its use that I have not found answers for. Is it absorbed
by the live rock? <To a minor extent, yes> Will I be able to keep
inverts in the tank again after its use and removal with carbon/Poly
filters? <Mmm... possibly... both this (QS) and Chloroquine Phosphate
(CP) are toxic to some algae, invertebrate groups, along with
Protists... really can't be used/recommended for application in a "reef"
system> Can I expect a huge ammonia spike from die off from the live
rock? <Is possible, yes> (mine is actually quite bare from being
continually pecked at by angels/puffers/triggers so I am not really sure
how "live" it is). Will it wipe out my biological filter leaving me with
an uncycled tank? <Not likely here> My case is a little unique in
that my live rock is worth significantly less than my livestock. I am
willing to sacrifice it if I can rid my display of this disease.
Thank you very much for your time. Greg Cohen <I do wish I had
better "news"... there are probiotics, "vaccines" sold for
Cryptocaryon... but not in the U.S. as yet... I would try reducing
Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOCs) through the use of Ozone here (steady,
high RedOx really is a very good adjunct to boosting immune systems
approaches)... this may shift the balance here to your advantage. I do
hope your fishes rally... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm and the linked files above. Bob
Fenner> Re:
Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s
12/30/08 Bob, <Tom, thanks much for chiming in... I/we do
delete folks emails, including their addresses daily... but I do hope
the querior sees your input> Thought I might respond to this since I
have a lot of 'experience' dealing with the Quinine, and to answer some
of his questions: It definitely is toxic to invertebrates other than
hermit crabs. It kills snails in a matter of hours if not minutes. It
can be removed with a skimmer, Polyfilter and water changes and inverts
can be returned to the tank after these measures are taken. It does not
cause a sizable spike in ammonia, as it does not seem to harm the
biological filter. or at least has not in my usage of it. Oddly enough,
it will completely destroy Cyanobacteria with one dose. The problem
is, I'm not sure how effective it is on this mega strain of Ich. It
can control it, but I have not been able to eradicate it. I ended up
disposing of my Atlantic Blue Tang because he seemed to be a 'carrier'
of sorts, meaning after the medication is removed he contracted ich
again every time. My other fish, that being the Passer Angel, Yellow
Tang, and Lunare Wrasse (Oh, and Lawnmower Blenny) are all resistant, so
it would seem. I had the same issue as this guy, in that to set up a
hospital tank in order to allow the main system to 'fallow' was quite
impractical due to the size requirements. I feel his pain. <Me too>
The question I have now is, and Bob, it would pretty much be your
opinion, is that I want to introduce a few more fish to the tank once we
are settled. What species or genus maybe do you feel are most
resistant to ich? <There are a few groups, species that tend toward
either end of the spectrum here> The Atlantic Blues are definitely
not. and I don't think I want to go with another tang anyhow. Surely
there are some types of fish that are more resistant. I'm thinking now
it's not a matter of choice for me, but more of what can be considered
an option. <... Mmm, please do see the list (of families of fishes)
listed in particular at the Cryptocaryon area... these are the more
sensitive/potential carriers, "hard to cures"... at the other end of the
spectrum...Triggers are tough, basses by and large...> I'm currently
in the process of skimming out the Quinine and doing some partials.
After a week or so I'm going to reintroduce my QT'd live rock and stars,
snails, hermits, pods, etc. After a week or so of observation, I will
have the 20 gallon available for a QT tank. I do not know, though, if I
have eliminated the ick because I removed the fish that could not resist
it (while continuing the treatment) or whether I've got ick still in the
tank. I feel as if it's still there, and if that's the case, I'd like an
opinion as to fish with the best possible chance of resistance. This
has been a very trying experience, and I wish him the best of luck.
Thomas <Again, much thanks. BobF>
Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 12/27/08
Bob: Thank you very much for your prompt response and advise,
including a reply on Xmas day - now that is absolute dedication that all
of us WWM users can't thank you enough for providing such wonderful
"service". <Welcome James> I did see this Chloroquine Phosphate
treatment protocol on WWM 4+ weeks ago when I first started researching
how to go about dealing with my sick fish. And I even tried to get my
hands on some of this stuff, but I kept running into websites that
required prescriptions.... So I decided to go the tried and true route
of copper, but now appreciate that I need to try this new method. This
morning, I was able to find a website that will send Chlor Phos without
an Rx - the URL for this site is as follows:
http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s33577-s-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE.aspx <Thank
you very much for this> They charge approx $85 inclusive of shipping
for qty 100; 500mg tablets (or 50 grams). <Yeeikes! And oh my! This
is a BUNCH of material> I will execute the suggested protocol of
20mg/l (or 3,780 mg for 50 gallons) on day 1, followed by 50% water
change 7 days later and redose of 10mg/l (or 1,890 mg/50G) repeated 2
more times after that (a total of 4 dosings). I also understand the
lighting should be kept off for the entire 1 month of treatment.
<Yes... thank you for this as well. Fellow WWM Crewmember ScottV is
visiting and we were just talking about the photosensitivity of this
compound> Should I at least keep a ceiling light turned on for 10-12
hrs per day? <I would, yes> I will certainly let you know how
effective this treatment was for me in approx 7 weeks (it takes up to 3
weeks for the CP tablets to be sent, since they are coming from a
pharmacy in India). <I see...> In the meantime (3 weeks or so till
dosing begins), beyond good husbandry of constant water changes (with
siphoning bare bottom) and smart feedings (with Selcon and / or Garlic),
is there anything I need to do, to give these guys the best chance of
survival? <Mmm... I would not change anything here really> They do
not appear to be "sick" beyond the obvious exterior visual signs of
parasites. Meaning, they are all eating vigorously, they are not going
to the surface, they are not breathing rapidly, or swimming erratically
(beyond occasional attempts to scratch themselves on PVC), etc. The only
one I am a bit concerned about is the PB Tang - his tail seems to be
regenerating, but is still missing a good 20% of volume. I am attaching
a picture (this time Maxijet 1200 with venturi attachment turned off, so
air bubbles not present in pix). Lastly - I appreciate the use of CP
to treat Ich seems to be a fairly new practice, and therefore there may
still be some unknowns, including long term affects, etc, but I was
hoping you may have input to this question: can CP be used for incoming
stock in QT as a prophylactic measure? <Mmm, I don't know this, or
much else re CP either... I want to be clear, honest... as always... and
state that I have no (zip, zero) experience with this material... And my
current gung-ho attitude may be misleading others... I had just read
some accounts, including in the new disease tome by Bob Goemans and
Lance Ichinotsubo... and am hopeful... The cpd. is tried and true in
terms of efficacy with humans...> For guys like me that clearly can't
distinguish the tell tale signs of Ich (even after 4+ wks of QT on all
incoming stock) would the use of this medication possibly help avoid a
future infestation of MDT? As I am sure you can personally appreciate,
and have heard a 1000 times over from your dedicated readers, no one
wants to ever have to battle something like this more than once......
Thanks again for your time, experience, passion and dedication to
helping your fellow aquarists! Sincerely, Jim <Again, my ongoing
thanks to you Jim... please do relate your further experiences here.
Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis?
1/11/09 Bob - hotmail appears to be garbling this ethread
pretty badly, but hopefully below is not needed to support this question
as it only requires yes or no: The Chloroquine Phosphate tablets
arrived from the pharmacy in India yesterday. My question is - should I
remove the carbon filled filter media from top filter during treatment?
<Yes> I don't have a skimmer or any other form of filter (except 3
sponge filters) in this 50G hospital tank. Thanks and I'll let you
know how this works for me in 4 weeks. <Thank you> Jim PS - I
lost the power blue tang to this "super ich" strain a few days ago. The
rest of them seem fine though. I started the "no light" part of this
treatment a couple days ago, just to see how they would behave / react
to feedings, etc. They seem very skittish with no light, but did eat all
the food I put in (from bottom of tank as opposed to how they normally
come right to feeding site at top of tank). Not sure how this lack of
light will affect them for 1 month? <As long as there is some outside
light the fishes will be fine... there are meteorological events that
make it very dark underwater, sometimes for weeks at a time, in the
wild> Sounds like many other hobbyists have done this previously, so
I guess they will be fine. <Yes. Steady on Jim. BobF>
Thomas Roach Ick Omnibus, formaldehyde, quinine f's -12/11/08
Hello Mr. Fenner and others, <Thomas> Thought I would give you an
update on my situation, as I'm hoping you are still familiar with it?
Mainly to serve as a warning to others and emphasize the dire need for
quarantining livestock, because once you get this resistant strain of
Ick in your tank it is not coming out with ease? <Ah yes> We moved
a couple of weeks ago and of course the fish still had ick? I disposed
of most of my sand bed to get to 1? or less for maintenance purposes,
changed 100% of the water and still had the infestation. I treated it
with a Formalin product similar to quick cure, which again reduced the
ick while the treatment was ongoing, but with this strain WHAT FORMALIN
BASED MEDS SEEM TO DO is allow the remaining ick to come back at much
greater numbers and strength? why this is, I do not know but it has
happened both times I have treated with the Formalin based products.
<A useful observation, note> This treatment I have gone back to the
Quinine Sulfate (by stock in Natl. Fish Pharm if they offer it, I'm
funding the place :-) ), and I seem to be having better results
completely by accident! In some foggy haze I quadrupled the original
dose for this size tank somehow, and it seems as though it has proven to
be more effective at a ridiculously high dose. After a 3 day period
I did NOT do a partial as recommended and treated at regular dosage, and
after the 2nd 3 day period I treated at 1 ½ times the recommended
dosage. The fish, into day 8, show no signs of Ick, whereas they
have in the past treatments. I'm not overly confident yet, but I'll post
results as we go. If other hobbyists had any clue what I am dealing
with, there would never be an email to you regarding skipping
quarantine, and I cant stress it enough to your readers how much misery
it can cause. Thomas Roach <Thank you for reports on this ongoing
exercise. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ick- 12/11/08 Thanks, Bob... let me restress how
TOUGH this is... to me far worse than Oodinium simply because you cannot
get rid of it. I have the salinity at 1.017, <Has to be much
lower... 1.012, perhaps under 1.010 to really mal-affect the
Cryptocaryon... at this level... most of your fishes as well...> temp
at 82, and water full of meds and it is still resistant! QT all your
fish!!!!! This makes African cichlids look mighty tempting again. <Ah
yes... or even Guinea Pigs!> On a side note, Quinine is quite
effective at destroying Cyanobacteria... at least it had one pleasant
result... gone with one dose. Thomas Roach <Silver linings...
BobF> Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08
Hi folks, <Elsie.> Well, it's been two weeks since I tried to do a
100% water change on the QT tank and I guess it didn't work because I
think I see spots on the blue tang and the sailfin tang. So frustrating!
<Tis frustrating.> Should I try the copper again for two weeks, or
should I try hyposalinity? Quick Cure? <Do a Google search re
Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the web. Just safer, less toxic, this
is the stuff to use here. It can be hard to find, the "in the know" LFS
now carry it, otherwise do call a vet or check the web. One source:
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185.
Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.> Thanks in
advance Elise <Welcome, Scott V.> Re: Ich
Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08 Scott, Thanks so
much for your reply. <Welcome.> I have never heard of the stuff
before. <Many...most have not.> I've been glued to my computer
digesting all the FAQ's on the subject. A couple of things I'm
wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as
opposed to quinine sulfate? <They are completely different
compounds.> The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that
phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a
form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc. <A pain, just
one source.> I will try calling some local vets. <Some will know,
others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too. A quick
explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.> Will the stuff
have any effect on biological filtration? <Supposedly not, I do have
my doubts, though have not quantified them.> I read that person's
post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50% percent change,
dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks. I am still combating
ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to redose with each
water change? <Yes, prorated of course.> Could get pricey, no?
<Comparative to other treatment and depending on the source it could,
but it works!> Thanks for your assistance, Scott, I'm very anxious to
try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs suffer in the copper.
<They do.> Elise <Scott V.>
Re: Chloroquine Phosphate Use 11/20/08
Hello again Scott, I hope you won't mind me troubling you again with a
couple more questions.
<Hello Elsie, not at all.>
I have ordered some Chloroquine phosphate from fishchemical.com.
<Great resource! Thank you for this.>
I am starting to get nervous about using a chemical I can't test for.
<I know the feeling, no practical method for the home aquarist.>
The only procedure that I've been able to find on how to use the stuff
is the one described by a hobbyist on WWM's FAQ's: Start with double
dose of 20mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a
week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and
add 10mg/L one last time. Is this what you would recommend, or would you
do 10mg/L from the beginning, or a different procedure entirely?
<The basic procedure is fine, but I would start with the 10mg/L dose. I
have heard of some using the 20mg/L initially, but the lower dosage is
tried and true.> Do I
need to keep treatment going for a month?
<I would, is the recommended protocol.>
I think I will be doing water changes pretty frequently because of
ammonia, I will have to carefully calculate how much CP to add, yes?
<Yes.> If my math is
right, I would want 757mg for my 20 gallon tank (20 gallons=75.7 liters,
10mg/L is 757), and if I did a 50% water change I would add 378mg. Do I
have this right? <Yes.>
Should I keep the aquarium light off during treatment?
<An important point I neglected to mention previously. This compound is
photosensitive. Do leave any lights off.>
OK, this is more than a couple of questions (sorry), but after all the
time, money, and energy I've put into saving these fish, I really don't
want to make any fatal mistakes now.
<Understood.> One last
question (promise!) Is this medication is a good idea for any type of
marine fish in need of treatment for crypt?
<I have never heard of nor read about any contradictions to use with
fish.> I thank you
again, and my fish thank you as well!
Elise
<Welcome, do let us know how it goes. Scott V.>
Chloroquine Phosphate Source 10/28/08 Hi Crew, <Matt.>
Thanks for all you do for the hobby! I have noticed recently on the
'dailies' that Bob is very excited about the prospects of Chloroquine
phosphate as a treatment for Ich and the like. I was interested in
finding out where this medication may be available for future reference,
so I did a bit of googling (not sure that's a word lol) and found that
it is the active ingredient in a medication named Avlocor (in the UK at
least). Avlocor is an anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is
obtainable without a prescription at the following link -
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_1_3474.html
-for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine
Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so
how much would an effective dose be? <It should work out fine. 10
mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can be
had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the know" LFS
keeping some on hand.> Thanks for your hard work and commitment,
Matt. <Welcome and thank you, Scott V.> <BTW, thank you very much
for sharing your finds. Scott V.> Re: Chloroquine
phosphate Source 10/29/08 Hi Scott, <Hey there Matt.>
Thanks for the response. The cost of these tablets is £1.89 (~$3.10) for
a pack of 20, 250mg tablets. <Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo much
here in the U.S.> If my math is correct this works out at 3.7 pence
(~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or cheap as I
am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks it. <Tis
cheap, for my area!> Maybe it's easier in the US (I'm in the UK).
<Is prescription as a drug from my knowledge.> At 10mg/l recommended
dosage, I presume the easiest way to dose it would be to dissolve a
250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and use this for start-up water in a
hospital tank and subsequent water changes. What do you think? <This
could work, yes.> I also asked about its use, in case there were any
other ingredients in this 'designed for human's' tablet that would
mal-affect fish and/or inverts. Do you think there are? <Doubtful,
more like fillers and binders.> How effective would you consider this
as a treatment for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo? <Very
effective in my experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this
drug is photo sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.>
Thanks for your time, Matt. <Welcome, Scott V.>
Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08 Well, folks.
Thought I'd tell you a story and present you with a new spin on and old
issue and throw an idea at you. <Ok> First, the trials. I have
written you in the past for advice for taking a tank through a power
outage lasting several days, and due to Hurricane Ike, we had an
opportunity to put this to test. I am glad to report that this was a
success! Using a 6000 watt generator, I was able to run the filters for
one to two hours every 5 to 6 hours to keep the tank 'breathing' (Also
running refrigerator, freezer, TV on occasion, some box fans, and a
window unit in the bedroom..). I am proud to say that I had cold beer
throughout our outage. <There is something to this> but I digress.
When the tank temp seemed to be creeping up a bit high, I would put a 2
liter bottle of ice in the sump while the filters were on, cooling the
water a bit. After 5 days, we finally got power back, and all fish were
alive and in good health. so it would seem. Not sure if it was the
absence of lighting for 5 days, or the fluctuations in temperature, but
the fish were stressed of course. and a single fish contracted ick. Now,
a quick recap is that we decided we had a 'subclinical' ick infestation,
which was fine as long as it stayed 'sub'. Months ago I had purchased
an Atlantic Blue Tang, which has done just fine with it's tankmates.
Those are a Passer Angel, Lunare Wrasse, Yellow Tang, Tomato Clown, two
damsels, and a cleaner wrasse that has defied it's life expectancy. The
ABT is the only fish now that has contracted ick (of course it's present
in the entire tank. why the other fish are so resistant, I could not
tell you). <Previous good care, genetic heritage> I have been
treating this tank with Quinine Sulfate. <Do try Chloroquine
phosphate next time...> we went through an initial treatment, the ick
remained, we are now in day 5 of a 9 day treatment. I still have signs
of ick on the ABT in day five. Prior to treatment, I set up my 20 gallon
tank and put as much LR as possible in there, along with a chocolate
chip (been with me for years), a serpent, and sand sifting starfish,
copepods, along with as many snails as I could find and remove. The
quinine is quite effective on them, since unfortunately I had to remove
a number of snails from the main tank after they were deceased and
revealed. This 20 gallon tank will remain fallow for at least another
two to three weeks (already been over two). I am beginning to wonder
how effective this Quinine will be on the ick remaining in the main
tank. Basically, I have a 200g fish tank devoid of life, with the
exception of a) the fish, b) the living bacteria in the rocks, and c)
the ick. Here's the dilemma. I am formulating a plan c ( the a. was the
subclinical existence, the b. is the quinine). Copper is no option since
we do not want copper absorbed in the rock and silicone, etc. I have
purchased with dread a bottle of Quick Cure (formalin & Mal. Green) and
it sits atop the tank leering at me, still in it's packaging. Long ago,
I had used it with good results, then not knowing it's dark side. Here I
am faced again with a possibility of using it. If I use it, I can get it
out with carbon, water changes, and Polyfilters, I think. Tangs though,
are sensitive to it, yes? <More so than other species... formalin is
a general biocide... crosslinks peptides (longer versions of which are
proteins)... all life> I've thought about dips/baths, but this is
really pointless if there is ick left in the tank. To fallow the tank
would require another tank of great size to house these fish for another
4 to 6 weeks, again not an option, especially when you're looking at
treating sensitive tangs with the same medications anyhow. So I am
considering the Formalin at half strength, wondering if this would even
be effective in a partial dose. <Mmm, no to partial dosing> Also,
for your readers, I did use something I had written about a while back,
ParaGuard by Seachem. I can only say that it is not effective with this
'resistant' strain of ick I have. perhaps it would be in other
circumstances. Thomas Roach <Thank you for the report Thomas.
BobF> Re:
Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08 Chloroquine
phosphate? Hmm.... I have never heard of this. Is there a common name
for the product, or know where it's available? I'll do a search for it
and see what I can find as well. <Search WWM re...> Would you
recommend the Quick Cure as a course of action, and if so, any specific
precautions in respect to my situation? <See WWM re Formalin and
Malachite...> Thanks again, Bob. I don't get to write as often due to
lack of problems, but I always enjoy the replies... Thomas Roach
<BobF> Re:
Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/17/08 Been
reading... and reading... and reading. My wife is a Vet Tech and I'm
having her ask the Doc if he has the Chloroquine Phosphate. I've been
calling around to local LFS's and I can imagine the blank stares that
accompany the vocal responses. One recommended something called Kordon's
Ick Attack or some herbal remedy. What a poor bit of advice. I remember
you asking one of your readers if they would want to treat their child
with tea tree oil if sick, and I thought that was such a good analogy
that I now tell people the same thing. I think that if her Doc can
obtain the CP, I might give it a go, but I have no clue as to what form
it would come in or what dose to administer... He's treated horses,
dogs, sea lions, etc..., but fish? I don't know. <Mmm, there are a
bunch of vet's that "cross over" to exotics, including aquatic
animals... and Chloroquine IS the latest and greatest...> As for the
Quick Cure, of course no previous situation matches mine exactly, but
that is to be expected. <Look to the ingredients> It seems to be
an effective treatment if administered carefully, I'm worried now about
it's effect on the biological filter. <Destroys> There seem to be
mixed opinions on the subject. And then, if you add one drop per gallon,
but only do a 25% water change, wouldn't adding another drop per gallon
for the next treatment overdose the medication? <Mmm, not likely...
the ingredients... are quite transient... get "used up" quickly. B>
Seems a bit risky if you ask me. Tonight I need to do a 25% water change
and administer the last Quinine dose, so I have three more days to
decide. I can tell that the Quinine does have some effect... without
it, the tang has ick every morning. I have not seen it, or at least seen
it in great quantity, since the treatment began. I just wonder why it
returns if the medicine kills it. <Mmm, a few poss. The intermediates
are shielded most likely> Thomas Roach
Re: Ich Treatment 10/17/08 I have read the FAQs on
Chloroquine and I placed a order through an online company, but they
called today and stated that they cannot ship the item to a residential
address. Do you have any confirmed sites that can send the prescription
without a Rx from a doctor? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
<I'd try your local veterinarian. BobF>
More Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/28/08, 11/13/08 <<RMF>>
Hello Mr. Fenner, <Bob is out away from the net for a bit. Scott V.
with you here.> No resolve yet, but updates for you and results of
things attempted... <Okay.> I went with the Quick Cure treatment,
with much worry. I used daily for four days, one drop per gallon,
monitoring water conditions and carefully observing the fish. Both tangs
did fine through the treatment, and the ich disappeared for the four
days. It did not kill the bio filter, either that or monitoring of the
water conditions plus immediate water change after day four prevented
any issues. <<Mmm... much more likely that either the bottle of QC
was not potent or that the make-up of your water/system absorbed the
principal ingredient (Formalin)>> However on day five, after
rerunning the skimmer and carbon, the next day the ich returned worse
than ever, again only on the Atlantic Blue Tang. <<More evidence of
the above>> This was Saturday morning. I had one treatments worth of
Quinine Sulfate left, which I administered immediately. (I have not as
of yet located the Chloroquine Sulfate, my wife's Vet was not familiar
with it.) <<Mmm, phosphate, not sulfate>> <A treatment of growing
popularity, though still hard to find. Bob Goemans had a great article
on the subject in the Sept. 08 FAMA, with some sources for Chloroquine
phosphate, one of which is
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185.
Most chemical supplies will have this.> The Quinine must have
severely reduced the ich, as Sunday and Monday mornings there were some
present on the fish, but not near the number as Saturday morning.
<It can be an effective treatment.> Prescription says to treat these
fish in a nine day continual bath... but I'm thinking that perhaps
twelve days or longer might be appropriate for this resistant strain. I
have never seen anything quite like this. Again, I'll follow up with
results/progress, but if you awaken in the night with an amazing idea,
please reply! <I will drop this in Bob's box just in case he does
have more to add when he gets back. Do keep us posted.> Thanks again,
we're struggling but pressing on... <Welcome, a steady course my
friend. Scott V.> <<Thank you Scott, Tom. BobF>>
My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading – 10/10/08
Greetings , <Salutations> My fish are infested with ich. I
currently have them in a 10 gallon tank, and am treating them with
copper. I should have a larger tank as there is a Yellow Tang, Sailfin
Tang , Hippo Tang, Flame Angel, and a Bicolor Angel all sharing mouse 10
gallon quarantine tank. <... dangerous... too much life period,
physio- and psycho-logically squeezed in here> The copper treatment
is about 5-7 days, <I would not use copper on Tangs or Centropyge...
Do (quickly) read about Chloroquine use here> which hopefully will
cure the fish. <Mmm... too likely not... hard to keep a physiological
dose up in such a setting... and too toxic...> However, ich is still
present in the display tank, <Yes> and is bound to re-infect the
fish if I put them back into the tank, which means that I should leave
the display tank empty without fish for a while. <Correct> My
question is, how long? <At least four weeks... longer, better> I
read about 31 days, but then again, I read that the ich can remain alive
for months even without a host present. <Can> I am going to raise
the temperature to 82-85 in the main tank, but am concerned about the
livestock remaining in the tank which are two lettuce Nudibranch, one
scooter blenny (which we have not been able to catch), one Coral Banded
Shrimp, too cleaner shrimp, about 80 snails, several red leg crabs, a
Sally Lightfoot, and a wonderful, slithery white ribbon-like eel.
<... the eel is/will act as a reservoir host here... Do you realize
this?> Which of these critters is susceptible to ich? I have read
that eels are somewhat resistant, is this true? <Yes> I do not
want to go through the procedure of leaving this tank fallow for however
long is necessary, only to put the fish back in for them to get
re-infested. <... Understood> I really appreciate your help and
advice with this problem. Best regards, Jeff <Mmm, well...
T'were it me, I would NOT treat the families of fishes mentioned with
Copper for Cryptocaryon... and NOT in such a small volume... the Eel
needs to be removed... and you need to read re the use of Quinine
cpd.s... Stat! Bob Fenner>
Re: My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading Chloroquine –
10/10/08 Advice taken Bob, thank you very much for your
prompt reply. Best regards, Just Castaldo <I am very excited to
find this anti malarial being found to be of such great use... and look
forward to the price dropping, its availability improving with increased
interest. Cheers, BobF>
Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08 Hello, <Hi there> I was
wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich
problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT.
Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able
to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the
conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from
the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and
powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge,
then treat the DT and fish with copper. <... a very poor idea>
What do you think? Would you advise this? <No and no> The DT
would have only the fish and 1" live sand. <... the copper won't
stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS> There
would be no inverts or LR at all. <So?> I plan to treat using
Cupramine. <A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here>
How long should I treat the tank? <I wouldn't... you'll find that
you are unable to "keep" a therapeutic dose of copper in such a
setting... too quickly adsorbed...> Would 3 weeks get rid of the
ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the
separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge
disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks. Thank you for
any help you can provide. -Peter <Happy to banter with you...
If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into
(and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool,
on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08 Hello, <Peter>
Thank you for the quick reply. <Deemed necessary... as is this
resp. here> So the copper treatment would be ineffective because
the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the
correct concentration would be difficult? <Adsorbed> Would I
be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level
daily and add as necessary? <No... have tried this... with many
gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of
time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work>
Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display
tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks. <... sorry to state, I don't
have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books,
articles penned by me...> I understand the live sand would die in
both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the
live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return
the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if
using copper. Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine
phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM. -Peter <I
would... and quickly. BobF>
Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/25/08 Hello again,
<Peter> Thank you for the reply. I looked into Chloroquine
phosphate. Unfortunately I don't have access to this medicine.
<Ah, yes... perhaps worth the time, trouble to try to buy through
veterinary or human sources...> It would probably take me a long
time to obtain it and by then, all my fish would be infested with
ich. Interesting enough, my 2 triggers have yet to display any signs
of ich, <Balistids are "tougher", often sub-clinical> while
all the other fish have at least a few specks. But I guess that's
what makes Triggers so resilient. Again, I appreciate the help.
But I have to act fast, so hyposalinity will have to do for now. If
ich does come back months down the road, I will be better prepared
with a proper sized QT. -Peter <You may well be faced with,
defaulting to a (very common) choice of having an ongoing-infested
system... See WWM re. Bob Fenner> |
Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate 7/22/08
To the Crew at WWM: <Gene> For many years you've helped fellow
hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not
have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight
I've been having for YEARS against ich. <Please do> Before I begin
I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It
is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place
(mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w
UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a
variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me,
especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the
extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for
about a week <A very good practice> and then begin hyposalinity
therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG
back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish
into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or
so. Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term
enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system.
In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT.
<Good spiel> As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS
with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to
use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the
parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4
- 6 weeks. Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product
called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a
book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My
system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55
gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium
I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the
effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG
1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking
amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began
increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing
the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many
treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a
different route. The following is what I did next. On 5/19 I
began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and
I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised
to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose.
This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the
third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water
change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28
and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5. On July 8th.
all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a
Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately
quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July
22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!! At this point
I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating
Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears
the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with
the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for
the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change.
(Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms).
The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my
experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative
procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic
organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor
crabs. Gene <Thank you for sharing your information and passion
Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner>
Stumped on med effects,
Quinine 6/19/08 Hopefully you are familiar with
my ick battle, but if not, the short version is that I am treating my
main tank with quinine sulfate to combat the resistant strain of ick. If
Bob is the recipient of this email, he is very familiar? if not, trust
that he and I have had extensive emails that led to this course of
action? and a new problem has arisen which I need some assistance on.
The entire tank has turned green. The two tangs, a yellow and an
Atlantic Blue, have not shown any problems. The Passer Angel has show
some uncomfortable reaction, and the Lunare Wrasse has gone into hiding
due to it. It has also effected a cleaner wrasse (purchased long ago,
before I became ?informed?), in that he eats, but cannot swim normally
anymore, seems extremely imbalanced. The quinine treatment, as
recommended by Natl. Fish Pharm, was 3 treatments, 3 day durations per
treatment, changing 25% of the water prior to each treatment. Treatments
one and two were fine, but my quinine supply was gone and I had another
batch aired in for treatment 3. This third treatment turned the tank a
nasty green color, killing all snails (which were removed), and causing
this odd reaction from the fish. The only other thing that was added to
the tank was something called ?Prime? by SeaChem, to neutralize Ammonia
and Nitrites, after the snail kill off. This was done in conjunction
with adding carbon, restarting the skimmer and UV filter, and a large
water change. I had to go out of town for a day after this, and
returning yesterday afternoon the water seemed to be as green as before.
(this is not algae bloom green, btw). Again, I did a 30% water change,
added more carbon, etc. I noticed some improvement this morning in both
color of the water and the fish, except for the small cleaner wrasse,
who maintains his imbalance. Last night, after the water change, all
fish had an appetite and fed well. I spoke with NFP Monday regarding
whether or not Quinine Sulfate would cause such a massive staining of
the water, and they are adamant that it would not. <I have witnessed
this change before though... with Quinine... perhaps an indirect
effect... killing so much of competing, predatory microbes that others
that look green proliferate. I think the change is biological, not
simply chemical> I'm wondering if I received something else in powder
form by mistake that would cause the above conditions, and does anyone
there have any thoughts/guesses on this. Does it sound similar (coloring
of water, affecting of specific species-particularly wrasses, invert
die-off) to anything you have had experience with? The tank is 150
gallons. The dose was a ¼ teaspoon per 10 gallons. Again, just
basically brainstorming, looking for root cause type info. It is
probably too late for the little wrasse, I'm hoping all other fish can
pull through this. It has certainly made a 150 gallon tank full of
African Cichlids sound appealing?. <Mmm, yes> Thanks so much,
Thomas Roach <Welcome. BobF>
Re: Stumped on med effects 6/19/08 Thanks, that was
as best an assumption as possible. Last night on the way home I stopped
and bought the last two Poly-Filters that a LFS had on supply. <Oh,
how much I wish I owned the rights to this product!> This morning
there was clearly an improvement in water clarity, so we seem to be
making some headway. When I got home last night, I thought we had lost
the little cleaner wrasse, as he had applied himself to the intake of
the FX5 canister filter, which is quite large. I fed some mysis shrimp
and Emerald Entrée, at which time he released himself and fed quite
happily with the other fish. It's as if he's lost his equilibrium, and
he was just resting in an upright position with the help of the intake
volume. Odd. My thoughts would be that tangs would be more sensitive
to upset water conditions, <Depends of what nature> and that's
what confused me, that being the wrasses are impacted more than the
tangs. And of course, why dose 3 would have such a different effect
than doses 1 & 2. <Worn tolerance> I will say, though, that the
ick is gone. I sent an email earlier in the week that I believe was lost
in the technical issues I read about, that being that since I've added
Quinine to the water, it has eliminated all of the Cyanobacteria, every
bit of it. Ever heard of that, or thought that it would have that
effect? <Yes... and likely malarial protozoans...> Maybe something
good did come out of it all. Thomas Roach <I do hope this is the
end of your trials... BobF>
Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions
04/13/2008 I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to
handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago
my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a
week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the
salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon
returning I lowered it to 1.009. <<Ok....However, always best to
get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an
eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>> It has been this way for
over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be
the best way to proceed. <<Continue hypo until all traces have
gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>> My display is
bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my
hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing
periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does
the hypo kill it? <<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start
to see it dissapear>> Is it at the stage where it falls off the
fish? <<Yes>> Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo
for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow
with a copper treatment. <<No need for copper treatment after
hyposalinity>> I have done copper for four weeks before, only to
see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a
reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the
same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and i
want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo
could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as
planned. <<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the
fish through-out the process>> My fish are all thriving in hypo
and have shown no behavior changes thus far. <<Glad to hear it>>
My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an eheim classic and 25
watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be
appreciated. <<As you have already started the hypo treatment in
the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>>
I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are
handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that
I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well,
hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem. <<As said
above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any
need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to
rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible,
test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>>
Thank you, Greg Fasano
Re: Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended
title) 04/14/2008 Hey guys, <Thomas> I read this
today on the FAQ, thought I'd add a comment since I had a tremendous
battle with Ich in my main tank a while back. That Quinine Sulfate I
ordered after you guys connected me with that National Fish Pharm
really did a wonderful job on my Ich problem and did not harm my
biological filter. and, though it's a risk you take, I know that
some fan worms survived the treatment as well, as I had some appear
some time after the treatment on live rock that had been in the tank
during the treatment. I had not added any new rock at the time of
it's appearance. From all indications, I had the tough, resistant
strain of Ick as well. I recommend it if you have an Ick problem.
We've been Ick free for 6 months. Best of luck, Thomas
<Thank you for chiming in... with this timely input. Will share. Bob
Fenner> Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF
amended title) 04/13/2008 I know that a hospital tank
is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on
vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly,
as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from
the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay
while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009.
<<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while
your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels /
fluctuations>> It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am
wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed.
<<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then
monitor for 2 weeks>> My display is bare only containing my fish
and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two
weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At
what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it?
<<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it dissapear>>
Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish? <<Yes>>
Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and
after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper
treatment. <<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>>
I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return
after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop
until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the
fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and i want to know what to
look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to
solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned. <<Hypo
alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the
process>> My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no
behavior changes thus far. <<Glad to hear it>> My tank is
running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an eheim classic and 25 watt uv.
Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated.
<<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display
tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>> I am
hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are
handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that
I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well,
hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem. <<As said
above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any
need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to
rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible,
test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>>
Thank you, Greg Fasano |
FAQ on Quinine Compounds 8/8/07 This is just some
info, since I just used some of this medication, and what I got to
experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the Quinine Compound
FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine Hydrochloride. I used
Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish Pharmacy, which was very
effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic, apparently, to hermit
crabs, which I suppose are resilient little creatures, but it is very
toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo snails in the tank (or so I
thought) which I removed and placed in my 20 gallon, but apparently I
had 8, and within a half hour of adding the Quinine Sulfate, the
remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom. It isn't an instant
killer, because they were fine after I quickly snatched them out and put
them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote this to tell about a
specific experience. I can see where it can get confusing, i.e. Copper =
Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks; Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for
fish and inverts and most likely sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish
and sharks, bad for inverts. Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine
RXP = safe for fish and inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :)
Thanks again, gentlemen & ladies... Thomas <Thank you for this
input Tom. BobF>
Re: New Ich, Note re Quinine use 8/20/07 Ah! Eureka!
Maybe... I consulted National Fish Pharmacy again about the quinine
sulfate. Though I treated it as prescribed by the label, I did not turn
off my protein skimmer. Now, the label says to turn off any UV filters
and remove any carbon, but it said nothing about the skimmer. The guy at
NFP said to definitely turn off the skimmer. Just an FYI, for anyone who
might use the same treatment. Thomas Roach <Thank you for this.
BobF>
Re: Another ich (crypt) question 7/28/07 Hello, Crew
<Allan> On following Bob's suggestion for treating resistant strains
of crypt, I purchased 100 grams of quinine sulfate. <Grams?!> I
searched through the archives and couldn't find anything regarding
quinine sulfate and carbon use, and protein skimming. I'm following
"normal" protocol for most medications by shutting down the
U.V./skimmers and removing carbon. <Good> My question should be
directed towards National Fish Pharmacy, but it's early Friday evening
and I would rather not wait until Monday for an answer. Can I run the
protein skimmers and add carbon with the use of quinine sulfate?
Obviously, I would like to maintain optimum water quality if possible.
<Quinones are too easily removed by such... I would do as you have. Bob
Fenner> Thanks again. You guys/girls are terrific! Allan
Medicine reactions, Quinones, sharks... 7/28/07
Another opinion needed! After speaking with Natl. Fish Pharm, I purchase
some quinine sulfate to kill Ick in my tank in the presence of a shark.
Though it isn't recommended, we are treating the main system. My snails
were removed before treatment and it does not affect the hermit crabs at
all. The treatment as prescribed was to add the quinine (done Tuesday)
and after five days perform a 25% water change and run carbon to remove
the quinine, then after a day repeat the treatment. <Okay> No
fish appears to be bothered by the treatment, and they are no longer
scratching on rocks at all, so I am sure it is working. My question is
about the shark. He still looks really healthy. On Tuesday he ate quite
a bit of shark formula w/ Zoe, right after the quinine was added. Day
two he came out at feeding time and ate a few pieces. Day three
(Thursday) he didn't really show any interest in the food. I've noticed
he seems a bit more lethargic and doesn't seem to have an appetite. I'm
tempted to go home today and do the partial water change and run carbon
to remove the quinine. Tomorrow is day 4 of the treatment though, and
I'm wondering if I should try and make it the five days. Do you think
that this quinine is bothering the shark? <Not likely> And, have
you any experience with the quinine and ick? <Ah, yes> What would
you think is the minimum effective treatment duration? <Two weeks>
I'm in a catch 22 here. The sole reason for the quinine is to
effectively whack the ick without hurting the shark. I'd like your
opinion on it. There is very little in FAQ about quinine & sharks but
one or two notes. Thanks a million. Thomas Roach <Time to
purchase or borrow some books Tom... Look for the name Ed Noga. RMF>
Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07 I have been on the
'net searching for someone that sells quinine for over an hour...
sighs... Any ideas? Thanks... Thomas Roach <I would try here,
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ . Give them a call if you can, they
are very knowledgeable and friendly.>
Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07 I had to share this
with you guys. I don't know if you care for specific references to
suppliers, but this may help someone, it certainly did me. In my search
for quinine for treating the ick in the below situation, I found this:
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ <Yes, my experience with them has
been quite positive.> Calling them, I spoke with Dr. Brian (sp) who
answered the phone. He does research there, and was able to provide me
with quinine sulfate. He was very informative and very interested in
answering my questions. Apparently his father founded this company after
being fed up with bogus medicines and treatments and their
misapplication. <Need more of that in the hobby.> He told me about
different treatments and why not to use each one, explaining how each
worked and the results to be expected. Specifically he told me that
quinine sulfate would work better than the hydrochloride and that it was
an excellent treatment with sharks present. It is very effective on
crypt. He even suggested an alternate treatment program as to save me
some money, so he was not interested in selling me something I did not
need. <Nice> If you want to post this for your readers or look at
the site yourselves please do so. <Will do so.> It is nice to find,
along with WetWebMedia, and informative source that is so willing to
help the average hobbyist. I hope this helps another reader some other
time. <I'm sure it will> Sincerely, Thomas Roach <Thanks for
sharing, always good to here people getting real help, retailers going
beyond the minimum to help their customers.> <Chris> Need
help finding a cure... <Crypt/Velvet?... Chloroquine...> 8/28/05
Wow.. what a wealth of knowledge you have and I am so thankful you are
sharing this knowledge with us! I love your site and though there is
soooo much information on your site it can make things difficult to
find, but with a bit patience and lots of searching I can usually
find answers to almost anything.. i do commend you (and the rest of
WWM crew) for the time and effort you put into this amazing hobby.
well.. I wouldn't be e-mailing you if here wasn't a problem.. so here
goes.. We have a 1500 gallon system.. yes 1500 gallons, my husbands
dream (I love it too : ) but I can at least blame it all on him : ).
It is actually 5 tanks that line two walls of our basement all on one
filtration system which is located in the garage. The tanks have
been up and running about a year now and we are slowly getting them
stocked and arranged. It is a slow and expensive process as you are
aware. I guess with adding new items to the tanks we are always at
risk. We have a separate 400 gallon tank we are using as a quarantine
tank. <All water, gear... separated> For some unknown reason..
maybe adding new corals to the tank we had an outbreak of what we
believed to be ich. we removed all of the fish except for the ones
in the reef.. (Powder blue tang, 3 blennies and a mandarin goby).
<Mmm, if there are fish/es present in part of the system, they will act
as "reservoir hosts" (scientific term)...> So now in the 400 gallon
QT tank we have the following: Pink Tail trigger, Nigger trigger,
Naso Tang, 3 yellow tangs, Blue hippo tang, skunk clown fish,
emperor angel, blue faced angel, purple tang and a golden puffer...
(there was also a clown trigger, lemon peel angel and long horned
cowfish, but they recently passed) Ah yes. the golden puffer.. here
is where our problem lies... Since we do have a puffer we cannot
and do not want to use the conventional copper medication for fear
of killing him. We have always used Hyposalinity in the past with
great success, however they have been in hypo for about a week now
with no improvement. the fish we left in the reef part of the main
system actually look better than the ones in the QT tank. Only thing we
can come up with is marine velvet.. <Mmm, for the many dollars you
have invested in this system, livestock, ongoing operational costs, I
would invest in an inexpensive microscope, learn to use it... not hard,
expensive...> and only medication we could come up with people
actually having success with was Aquatronics Marex which contained
Chloroquine <di>Phosphate. However to my findings over he past two
days.. Aquatronics has gone out of business and that medication cannot
be found. <Mmm, actually...> I am having great difficulties
finding another med with the same ingredient or a vet to prescribe
me Chloroquine Phosphate because they do not specialize in fish...
Do you have any suggestions on obtaining this medication or another
med that may help with external parasites that will not harm our puffer?
<Careful use of chelated copper along with hyposalinity... of all
fishes... would be my choice... If you are convinced that you'd like to
try Chloroquine diphosphate (note spelling) this compound can be
procured for human use (used to treat malaria)... expensive... from a
medical doctor source> I have read so many articles on FW dips, but
would Hypo not have the same effect? <Mmm, generally not... the
rapid change in osmotic pressure is often of much more immediate relief,
destruction to single-celled animals> If we try to FW dip can we dip
multiple fish at once and change FW between "groups". How long can you
leave them in there without causing too much stress or harming them
more? <... this is posted on WWM> You have my utmost gratitude
for any help or suggestions with this.... Thanks for your time!!
Jatana <I strongly encourage you to have local folks... guru/s from
a marine hobby club, expert service company personnel... come to your
site, inspect your fishes, system... help devise (and soon) a workable
plan for isolating, treating ALL your fishes... and carefully quarantine
all future purchases. Along with the microscope, I cannot urge you
enough to procure a copy of Edward J. Noga's "Fish Disease Diagnosis and
Treatment". Bob Fenner>
Malachite green/quinine and ich
G'day guys, <Good morning Luke, MacL here with you today.> I have
found your site most informative. <Many thanks for the nice words.>
I have a 530 litre, 5 foot by 2 foot, by 2 foot Tropical reef tank set
up. In my tank I have 2 Pajama cardinal fish, 3 Green Chromis, 1 regal
tang, 1 mimic tang, 1 mandarin fish, 1 scooter ( Neosynchiropus
ocellatus ). I also have 1 pink Goniopora - bowling ball size, 1 green
Goniopora - apple size, 2 species of Discosoma, 1 group of Zoanthus and
2 Anemones. I have a wall of live rock along the back of my set up,
Serpulorbis inopertus and Haliotis varia are quite common through this
wall. 18 months ago I successfully treated an outbreak of
Cryptocaryon irritans on my regal tang with a 4 day treatment of Quinine
hydrochloride and malachite green. All of the above species in my tank
survived, though the Gonioporas went into themselves for 8 days.
Everything has been fine until now. Recently I added 1 clown wrasse,
1 18 inch snowflake eel and 1 Pentaceraster tuberculatus. I now have
another out break of Cryptocaryon irritans. The regal tang has a good
smearing of white spots and most of the other fish have 1 or 2 spots on
them. No fish are showing physical distress YET. I believe the white
spot came into my system on the clown wrasse though at the time of
purchase no physical signs were noticeable. For future use I will be
setting up a hospitable / Quarantine tank. I know I will have to
remove the Pentaceraster tuberculatus before using the same treatment as
before, Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green, but I do not know if
I should remove my snowflake eel? <Definitely take him out of the
tank while the treatment is going on.> Please your opinions would be
greatly appreciated. <Good luck, MacL> - Greenex
Strikes Again - Hello Crew, I have another question my tank had
caught ich and the guy at my LFS told me to use Greenex so I did. Now
all the LFS are telling me to throw away all my sand and recycle my
tank. The Greenex worked alright, done a great job of killing ich, but
it took my fishes, corals, and invertebrates too. <Doesn't sound like a
good cure to me... I would fire the fish store that gave you this advice
[to use the Greenex on your tank].> Sigh... of all means I don't want to
have to recycle my tank, so I wanted to make sure about what you all
think before I take action. <You must re-cycle the tank at this point,
but you probably don't need to throw out your sand... run some activated
carbon for about a week or two and you should be good to go.>
Thanks, Chris <Cheers, J -- >
Pounding Parasites! (Another Medication?) Chloroquine for parasites?
You guys have a great website for information! <Glad that you find
it useful! We enjoy bringing it to you every day!> I have been
battling a persistent ich infection and potential velvet to boot. DON'T
ASK. I am now a quarantine believer, but 1 fish too late.
<Well, better late than never. As long as you learned your lesson, the
fish did not die in vain...> I run a protein skimmer, UV sterilizer,
and a canister filter (convenient for carbon, etc. when needed)
along with two other powerheads for circulation in the tank (100 g
acrylic). I had previously treated quarantined fish with a round of
CopperSafe for 14 days to an apparent cure and allowed my main tank to
go fallow for 4 weeks. After returning the fish for a 4 week
disease-free period, I purchased 2 more fish (purple tang and Foxface)
from a very reliable dealer that quarantines and dates their fish
arrival (fish had been in same tank for months), therefore did not
freshwater dip due to stress issues that I had previously experienced.
<I have a bad feeling about this...> After a 2 week quarantine in my
own tank (disease free) I added the fish to my main tank (100 gallon
FOWLR with 60 lbs LR). After another 2 weeks I suddenly had a
pearl-scale butterfly stop eating and dead the next day with no other
outward signs of disease. 1 week later purple tang and Foxface had
signs of gill problems (gulping air and increased breathing), followed
by a couple days later with external signs of ich on the purple
tang. Tank chemistry was great, temp constant. <I'm wondering if
this was Amyloodinium, not ich. The "gulping" and difficulty in
breathing are symptomatic of either advanced ich or Amyloodinium...>
Now my 20 gallon quarantine was not big enough for the fish (and my wife
not tolerant enough for more tanks)....soooo .... I remove all
invertebrates and live rock to my 20 gallon (I have no plans for corals)
and treated the main tank with CopperSafe. (I realize you are cringing
at this point, but this was a very calculated move that was made with
much thought). <I wouldn't have done it this way, but I can
certainly understand your reasons for doing this...> Problem
solved.. ich gone after 3 weeks of measured copper treatment..
removed all traces of copper and 2 weeks later replace the live rock,
followed by invertebrates to the tank. All is great for about a month
and suddenly had ich again and a dusky appearance on the purple tang
(maybe velvet). Repeat the above with lowering spg to 1.016 and added a
cleaner goby and am using Cupramine this time instead of CopperSafe.
<Grr...> Am now finished with the three week treatment using
appropriate daily measurements of copper levels (as before). All fish
are eating great, look full bodied and healthy, except for lateral line
with the purple tang (not surprising given the copper). <Good
observation on your part! One of the potential side effects of copper
with tangs...> I will remove Cupramine for the next two weeks with
PolyFilter and carbon, increase the salinity, and then return the live
rock, followed by the invertebrates once I see the pods living well. On
the upside the 20 gallon quarantine has great pod growth with no fish to
eat them. <Good to hear that!> Other than the downside of
treating my main tank can I do anything better? This is not a scenario I
want to keep repeating. <Agreed...I might leave the tank fallow for
a longer period of time- like 6 weeks or more. This can really disrupt
the life cycle of the causative protozoa.> Given my prior
persistence of parasite and the nagging fear of an ongoing velvet
infection will I get any advantage from additional treatment with
Chloroquine biphosphate? <I'm skeptical at this point. Could do more
harm than good.> What is your opinion on using Chloroquine
biphosphate? Can it be removed from the tank with carbon after 10 days?
<Carbon/Polyfilter an remove many medications effectively..> It is
very difficult to find any good information on Chloroquine, since few
people seemed to have used it much. Thanks for your help. Have a great
day! Nick Lukacs <Well, Nick personally have not used the stuff,
either. I am more inclined to go fallow longer than I would be to "nuke"
the tank with yet another medication. Tough on the fauna in the tank, as
well as the fish. Short of thoroughly breaking down the tank and
starting over, I'd go for the longer fallow period, myself. Good luck!
Regards, Scott F.>
I dosed it with Greenex
Thanks a lot.....btw, my tank came down with ich! I dosed it with
Greenex, and all the fish died the next day. <Argghhh, I hate this
product... not uncommon result> My tank got milky white and I did a
50% water change. The cloudiness continued for several day and is now
dying down. I know I shouldn't have but I decided to add another
clarkii for the anemone, so far so good. It's been 5 days and the
clarkii seems OK. He took to the anemone in about 1hour! He now
sleeps inside it and it closes around him like covers (really kewl).
BTW all my corals lived through the medication just fish casualties.
Thanks for the tip on the sponge for bubbles I know I need to be
skimming, but I couldn't stand all the bubbles. <Maybe relocate it
to a sump?> I have a lot of brown algae on the back glass would it
hurt to leave it growing or should I scrape it? <If it bugs you,
scrape away... should turn green with time, improving conditions> Hey
thanks again for caring so much about the hobby by taking your time
with all these questions. Much thanks, Joe >> <Be chatting. Bob
Fenner> Greenex and UV? Hi Bob- I am currently
treating my 12 gallon marine tank (fish/live rock/few inverts) with the
product 'Greenex' by Aquatronics, for ich which developed on a new fish.
This product had failed me once in the past, but I caught the ich
within hours of first appearance this time and decided to give it
another shot. Surprisingly, the ich was off the new coral beauty the
very next day...and I am continuing treatment. my question: Is it
safe to use my UV filter while using the 'Greenex' product? <Yes...
that is, the UV does not affect the type of copper and formalin mix
which is Greenex...> I turned it off before treating in fear of a
poor reaction, but would like to use it if possible. Unfortunately,
the box mentions nothing regarding the issue and I have been unable to
acquire any company contact info for Aquatronics. Your help is
appreciated. Garin <The usual warning here re this product,
apparent "disappearance" of ich... the former is rather toxic, has
little safety/efficacy margin... the latter does just "cycle off"
initially until developing multi-generational stages in a system...
Please read through the FAQs on "Marine Ich", and the MANY associated
FAQs and article files to "Marine Parasitic Disease" on our site:
www.WetWebMedia.com... and be prepared to enforce other treatment... at
least the environmental manipulation, vitamin prep. and cleaner ideas
gone over on WWM. Bob Fenner> Re: Greenex and UV? Thanks
Bob- I have read through nearly all your FAQ's regarding Ich and the
sort...very helpful! I will begin the environmental manipulation,
since I lost my electric scallop to the Greenex anyways. Hopefully
the Emerald and Scarlet crabs will pull through the changes. <Me
too... and please do write, express your concerns re "labeling" to the
fine folks at the manufacturer (Aquatronics)...> I will also try a
neon goby as a cleaner, but fear the trigger will have him for lunch.
<Surprisingly, they don't eat them at once... recognizing Gobiosoma as
allies...?> Regarding nutrition...currently I have a 3 fish: a
Picasso trigger and a valentini Toby/puffer (each about an inch
long), and my new coral beauty angel. What food/brand would you
recommend for the best nutrition (whether it be frozen, flake, or a
combination)...whatever would be best? <Please see the
"Foods/Feeding/Nutrition" section on the Marine Index on our site:
www.WetWebMedia.com> The angel doesn't seem too interested in the
'brine shrimp plus' flake or the frozen blood worms the others love. I
thought I might try growing some Caulerpa algae in the tank for him,
since he ate all my hair algae. <Add more live rock...> I will
beat this ICH!! Thanks again, Garin <Good attitude. Bob Fenner>
Greenex use The guy at the fish store says that he uses Greenex
to treat ick in a system with live rock and sand...I thought I
remembered your website said that Greenex wasn't good.. when I got
home I checked and it said that it killed some fish...the bottle
states that it is safe for all fish, invert... and biological
systems.. What is the deal?? Cheryl <Unless the formula has
changed, Greenex is not non-toxic... too dangerous, responsible for many
losses... Post this msg. to the listservs for others opinions,
experiences. Bob Fenner> Question about a disease My
cowfish is swimming in circles and around its own center horizontally.
It happened after I treated it with "Greenex" (Malachite Green and
Quinine Hydrochloride) anti-protozoan agent against a marine ick for
five days every other day. On the box of the medication, it says that
it prevents exactly the same conditions as the fish acquired
afterwards: scratching and darting. The fish is so disoriented that
it cannot eat pieces of octopus I feed it. What should I do now?
<Change water, run activated carbon in your filter flow path, lower
specific gravity, toss this toxic "medication" in the trash, use the
search feature (Google) on the wetwebmedia.com site and seek the
commiseration of other aquarists on the chatforum:
http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/ Otherwise, be patient and hopeful. Bob
Fenner> Another Greenex Burial Hi bob, I have a 38
gallon Berlin system reef tank. I recently used Greenex, malachite green
and quinine HCl, to treat a tang that had white spots. The first two
days of the treatment were fine, I kept the filters running without the
carbon, turned off the protein skimmer, and continued use of Kalkwasser
solution, and reef solution. Then on the final day of treatment, I
decided to take out the filter block from one of my filters because I
had notice that it had been dyed blue, and I forgot to shake the bottle
of Greenex before adding it to the tank. After about two hours one of my
Foxface started heavy gilling at the bottom of the tank, 10 minutes
later it had gone from yellow to flush white started swimming upside
down, did a vertical loop and flopped dead on the live rock. My second
Foxface also succumbed despite an emergency water change, putting carbon
back in the filter, and turning on the protein skimmer. My tang and
clownfish were noticeably effected for 3 or 4 days but have now come
back to normal, and my blenny never seemed bothered. Was all this a
result of not shaking the bloody bottle of Greenex? Thanks for help
<More of just using this "medication"... the filter was removing a
modicum of the malachite and formalin (the ingredients) lessening their
toxifiying your fish... removing the filtrant hastened the effect. Bob
Fenner, who is glad to read of your other fishes revival> sincerely
Ben Greenex WWM Team, I was reading through your Daily
Q&A and read a post where a user had his tanked wiped out the day after
he added Greenex and wanted to let you guys know that this exact thing
happened to me about 6 months ago. I had a couple of fish sick with ICK
and cloudy eye my pet shop recommended Greenex since I had some
invertebrates, well after dosing my 180 gallon tank with 180 drops of
Greenex the following day EVERYTHING was dead. I don't know what they
put in that stuff but it had wiped out my tank just like it wiped out
his, needless to say I've learned my lesson but paid a hefty price tag
for it. Greenex I have a 50 gallon show tank with a Kole
tang, Spanish wrasse, a clown, a multicolor sea urchin, 2 damsels, 2
fire gobies, and a flame angle. My clown got ick a few days after I got
him. <That is why we always recommend any and all additions get a
four week quarantine period.> My friend that owns the pet store I
bought it from recommended Greenex. I had had problems with my fish
dying after application before but was convinced that it was my tank
because it was still new (about 3 months old). <It could also have
been the disease itself that killed the fish, not the treatment.> My
friend convinced me of it, but I took his advice because it worked on
his fish. I made sure this time to check my water before application,
every thing was perfect. I applied it as recommended, 1 drop per gallon.
The next day the wrasse, tang, urchin, clown, angel, and one goby was
dead along with one of my sand sifting stars. <Wow!> Is it just me
or is this stuff killing my fish? <I have had bad experience with
this product on invertebrates, so I would believe it is possible that
your urchin and starfish was effected, but too many other variables to
say for certain the medication killed the fish. The speed of the deaths
does lend credence to your suspicions, but it is also possible the
clownfish was infected with Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium
is harder to see and may have spread unnoticed. A quarantine/hospital
tank is a must. Please see www.WetWebMedia.com regarding set up and
proper use.> I mean none of these fish were sick. I have had most of
them for almost 6 months and no problems, no signs of being sick and all
of a sudden mass die off! I checked my tank again every thing was fine.
It seems every time I add this stuff to my tank all my sensitive fish
(expensive fish) die! <See, I would see the problem as every time you
add a unquarantined fish, it becomes sick in your tank, infects
everyone, you then treat the whole tank, and you experience deaths.>
Is it just me or can it be the Greenex? <It is possible, but you have
other forces at work here. -Steven Pro> Treating Marine
Parasites <<JasonC here, Bob is off diving>> Mr. Fenner, sorry
to bother you again, but.... The symptoms on my fish were getting worse
(ich and marine velvet) so we got a skimmer, but then started using
Rally and Kick Ich by Ruby Reef to try to save fish and had to turn
skimmer off. I ended up losing my Gold rim tang, Heniochus, and true
Percula. Obviously these meds didn't work. I know you said to get
Alkalinity right and keep water quality excellent, lower salinity
slowly) and raise temp. I did these as well, Water is great, salinity is
at 1.019 normally it is at 1.022 0r around there. Temp is around 80-82.
We ran activated carbon through tank to pull meds out and try something
a little "harder". We began using Greenex yesterday. My clown died but
he wasn't going to make it regardless. Now none of my fish are eating.
They are all hiding. I am now running carbon, protein skimmer and UV
sterilizer to pull meds out as I believe Greenex is quite toxic. <<UV
won't take any medications out of the water>> What else can I should I
do. <<probably not much, reflect on what has transpired. Successful
Marine tank keeping requires as much work before we put fish in the tank
as after. >> We are kind of thinking to try to let the fish fight it off
on their own. The shrimps are cleaning them and salinity is lowered.
Please help we are running out of options. Remember we can't use hosp
tank and we have inverts. <<I don't recall the details - this is an
important piece of gear, perhaps more important than a UV filter>> If
this were your tank given what we can and cannot do, what would you do
at this time? <<wait it out, try to make arrangements for a quarantine
system for future residents>> We have two hippo tangs and one true
Percula left, two cleaner shrimps both working hard) I thought of neon
gobies, but am afraid of getting any new fish.. HELP!!!!!! <<well,
the neon gobies are pretty hardy and may be a good place for you to get
started again, however... you should really consider carefully how you
might squeeze in a quarantine system. This one item could have saved you
much of this heart-ache. Certainly a good idea to just let things run
their course and see how the Greenex works out. You are quite correct
about the toxicity of Greenex, and it probably should have been avoided.
In any case, keep running the carbon, try to encourage your fish to feed
but don't over-do it. Cheers, J -- >> Greenex...reef-safe?
one more quick question. . . what is about Greenex that makes it so
harmful? <The active ingredients are Malachite Green and Quinine
Hydrochloride (a fairly nasty chemical).> Why do they say on the
bottle that it is "reef safe" if it has done so much harm? <It claims
to be "invertebrate safe", which is a pretty big difference. Many larger
inverts can tolerate the stuff, but much of the smaller life in reef
tanks and many corals will be harmed.> Is there ever a situation
where you would recommend using this stuff? <The best situation for
the use of any medication is in your bare bottom hospital tank. -Steven
Pro> <and adding that the malachite wreaks havoc with filter feeders
and many octocorals> Rapid Gill pumping.... Anthony,
First off allow me to thank you for all of the help that you have lent
me over the course of the last few days. Not only was your advice good,
but it was delivered expediently, and in such a manner as to not make me
feel like a complete dummy. Though I have been known to do extremely
dumb things, particularly with my fish tank. Many thanks. <very
welcome and thank you for your patience. I fear sometimes that I am too
strict of an aquarist and with my advice. Indeed, we all learn some hard
lessons... just trying to minimize them <smile>> Anyway here is what
I did. Before I read your last email I transported the tang to a 30
gallon tank I borrowed from a friend; <excellent... and though it
might still seem small to you for a fish this size, it will serve the
purpose admirably!> cleaned it out really well, and then used 30
gallons of water from the main tank to fill the QT. This was on Monday
night. I also treated him with a product called Greenex. Apparently this
is a combination of Malachite Green, and Quinine extract. Everyone I
spoke to said that this is an excellent all purpose antibiotic. <it
has a cure or kill reputation... aggressive but necessary at times>
It appears to have worked. Not only has the excessive gilling ceased,
but his appetite is back, and the ick (or whatever it may have been)
appears to have receded somewhat. <excellent, and so soon. But don't
relax just yet. Medicated several days after last symptom wanes if mfg
recommendations allow and keep in QT for a minimum of 2 weeks> Will
keep him QT'd for some time yet. With fingers crossed, it appears that
he is on the road to recovery. Which is good, because he has quickly
become a favored fish. <yes... a magnificent fish. You made the right
call> My Passer never appeared to become ill, which is also very
good. I will definitely take your advice on the plastic tub QT setup. I
completely overlooked such a simple solution. <too easy to do
<wink>... that's why we all brainstorm and share ideas> Again thanks
for everything. Michael <always welcome, and thanks for sharing a
positive update! Anthony>
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