Fin damage from quinine sulfate, stress, or secondary bacterial infection? – 3/14/10 Greetings to Bob and the Crew at WWM, <Jamie> Hope that all is going well with you. <Fair> I am currently using quinine sulfate on my Powder Blue Tang, Atlantic Blue Tang, and Kole Tang for C. irritans that has been haunting them since November last year. I am in the middle of the second treatment as the ich returned several days after the first treatment due to bad methodology on my part. Everyone is clear of ich spots and behaviors have been normal with activity and eating habits. My question concerns my Kole Tang, who did not tolerate the quinine as well as the others. With the initial treatment, his skin became blotchy and his pectoral fins started to "disintegrate" but then his skin improved within three days of finishing the 7 day treatment and daily water changes. I am in day 4 of the second treatment, he did not have the blotchy skin reaction as he did the first round, and his pectoral fins are not getting worse but have been like this (in the pictures) for 5 days now. I am wondering if this is a secondary bacterial infection or is it just taking the fins longer to heal? <Looks to me to be more of damage from exposure to simple "poor water quality". Should/will heal in time w/ improved conditions> Interesting observation to share on quinine sulfate and peppermint shrimp. Peppermint shrimp tolerated the quinine sulfate well, until he molted. He died shortly after that. Another interesting point I learned from Dr. Aukes is that quinine sulfate is an alkaloid <And the sulfate radical can lower pH substantially...> and the fishes sense this through their lateral lines. They don't like it and literally tries to swim away from it when I add it to the water. I also lost a couple of fish because they jumped out of the tank during treatment, so I would recommend that anyone treating their fishes with quinine to cover their tanks tightly. The fish also show other stress behaviors by eating less, being more irritable or grumpy, and showing stress coloration (my juvenile Atlantic Blue is normally yellow when he is happy and brown when he is mad, he is consistently darker with quinine treatment, but changes back to yellow when treatment ends.) The quinine also seem to decrease the fishes' slime coat which makes the scratch marks clearer if the fish has done a lot of flashing. I hope the lessons I have learned will help others in the future. Thank you, Jamie Barclay <Me too. Thank you for this valuable input/sharing. BobF>

Re: Fin damage from quinine sulfate, stress, or secondary bacterial infection? 3/15/10 Bob, thanks so much! I hope that in a few weeks I can share good news that we are finally finished with the ich. For all my future acquisitions: Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine! Take care! Jamie <Thanks! BobF>

A few clarifications, CP use, much more re FIOWLR set up, op.   3/13/10
Hi Bob and Crew and to whomever replying to this mail.
<Hi Blesson, howsit?>
Thanks to Bob's precious advice I am able to successfully keep Cleaner shrimp in my tank. But instead of adjusting ph using vinegar or a weak acid to drip acclimate the specimens and then to acclimate them to the tank; I used a product called Ammo lock to detoxify the accumulated metabolic waste products. Worked out great and thanks a ton Bob.
Well I also found the Yellow Tang a bigger good home and he looks really happy. And your treatment protocol for the Crypt and Amyloodinium using CP worked wonders !
<Ah, good. I will accrue your comments here in that FAQ f'>
The survivors being the Tang, a Bicolour Blenny, Chromis and a Goby would thank you if they could. Well I had to shift my dorm and hence did an overhaul of the tank. Removed the coarse crushed coral gravel and added a bed of LS about one to two inches. New occupants include 2 True Perculas, 1 Red Fire Goby, 1 Electric Blue Hermit,1 cleaner shrimp and 2 unidentified snails which you will have to help me ID later when I can get hold of a decent snap, along with the old Blenny, Chromis and the Goby. Tank has been up and running for over two months now. I couldn't QT the new guys on arrival as my QT tank broke in a freak accident ! I really couldn't help it :( Anyways the clowns were tank raised and look very healthy and have already noticed a slight growth spurt in one. They 're about an inch and a half in length. My first question is ... Can an infection appear after two months of no symptoms ?
<Yes>
I have plans for a lot of corals. Is my tank too crowded ?
<What is the volume, shape?>
My Alk is 7dkh. Is tat alright cos the test kit manual says 8-12dkh is the normal level.
<Is likely fine; a bit low... but unless you have more sensitive biomineralising life, no worries>
According to my judgment of colour from the reagent test kit from API Phosphates are around 0.5. Is that a bit too high ?
<Yes...>
How do I get it to zero other than water changes and feeding less ?
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/phosphatemar.htm
and the linked files above>
Nitrates are around 5-10. I run a decently working Skimmer. I am using Poly Filter and Carbon, also Denitrator chips or granules from SeaChem in my Canister filter, the bottom trays of the canister hold Ceramic rings and Bio-media for Bacterial colonisation. No measurable Ammonia or Nitrites.
Calcium is at 440 ppm. I dont test for Magnesium but do dose it in small quantities.
<My usual urging/admonition here to not "use" anything w/o testing for it... You MUST test for [Mg] if you're adjusting it>
Got a slight Diatom problem.
Should I remove the filter floss from the canister ?
<Maybe. I/'d use summat like Eheim's "Flocken" (one time purchase, polyethylene product) myself>
My thoughts were this would trap detritus and cause problems with the nitrate.
<Evidently not too much eh?>
Making plans for a DIY Sump and an overflow system to be added soon. Your advice is highly appreciated !
<And is posted>
Have been reading the daily FAQs for the past two months and frankly I am kind of hooked on to it and the site ! Thanks you so much ! :)
Blesson from Bangalore, India.
p.s. Bob might remember me as the medical student with fish problems ...
<Ah yes. Cheers, Bob Fenner> 

Re: Decision re: Achilles Tang transition, CP sourcing in Canada   3/11/10
Hi again Simon, can you tell me where I can get this med in Canada, my lfs has no idea what I am talking about when I asked for Chloroquine Phosphate, thanks for your help.
Tracey
<Pardon my "cutting in" here Tracey. As Simon is in the U.K. (and I'm a yank), I'll point you to the locations listed on WWM. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Alternatively, you may have success securing CP through a veterinary or medical doctor.
Bob Fenner>

Re: Now an angel... Quinine, SW parasitic dis. (?) of what sort... Confusing oneself w/ opinions from differing sources   3/7/2010
So I wanted to tell the rest of the story.
<Please do>
After you said I needed to raise salinity and use quinine (and this was after about 3.5 days of treatment with prozipro and lowering salinity to 1.011) I added carbon, turned on the UV and slowly started raising the salinity. I called National Fish Pharmacy to ask if I could use the Cryptopro in lower salinity as I did not want to raise it quickly. In talking with Brian he convinced me that I needed to treat again for flukes -- that it was not ich. This was based on the data that the fish was hiding, not eating well, and breathing hard.
<? These can be/are symptoms of Cryptocaryoniasis... and can be symptomatic of trematode infestations>
So I treated again for flukes instead of ich and I very slowly raised the salinity according to your instructions. It went from 1.011 to 1.015 in about a week. Well the ich returned and the fish was looking terrible. I have treated a fish for flukes before and the fish usually looks better very quickly and this was after another 4.5 days on prozipro.
<Prazi-Pro... as in the product containing Praziquantel... for worms...>
But he was looking terrible so I started the process to get the prozipro out again but it takes 48 hours and the fish died before the 48 hours was up.
Now I still had the goby and he was showing symptoms so after the 48 hours of small water changes and carbon, (Brian said not to use UV as it sucks oxygen out of the water
<... No... generates higher DO... even Ozone/O3... nonsense>
and he also said to leave the salinity alone so I did) I treated with quinine. Last night was the 7th night of treating with the quinine and the goby is dying this morning.
<...>
Originally I did not write to you for advice on how to treat ich. I wrote -- with all of the details because I was worried it was something else. I gave the fish a freshwater dip at one point to check and see if it was velvet but there was no cloudiness in the water and there was no evidence of velvet when they died. As I mentioned several times I was confused because nothing seemed to be effective. The only symptoms I could see were hiding, not eating, redness in the gills, a strange texture on the gills (not fluke shapes) and difficulty breathing.
<... need a scope...>
Brian still insists that it was flukes and that I did not treat it long enough or early enough. And that the ich was a secondary infection. If this is so then I should have stayed with the hypo and prozipro. I don't know what I have learned from this except that I want to buy quarantined fish from now on.
Sherri
<Thank you for this input Sherri... Other than prophylactic measures like dips/baths and quarantine, it may be worth your while to invest in an inexpensive microscope (see my input re on WWM) and a stock reference work on fish disease ID and treatment (see re Ed Noga...). Bob Fenner>

Re: Treatment Resistant Cryptocaryon irritans   2/28/10
Greetings Bob and crew at WWM.
After reading your e-mail and contacting Dr. Aukes from National Fish Pharmacy. I re-thought my past treatment with quinine sulfate and more recently with formalin and realized that I am the reason neither medications worked. This led me to acknowledge the need to share my experience so that others may learn from my mistakes.
<Ah good>
Going back several months ago, after the quinine sulfate did not APPEAR to work in treating the C. irritans infection brought by the Achilles tang.
There were actually three issues at the time that somehow, I lumped into one which was the thought that quinine did not work. In reality there were three very separate issues which led to my failure and poor decision making, not
to mention illogical thinking were:
1) The Achilles was not eating in the quarantine and the only fish showing ich. No good nutrition intake leading to the poor immunity of the fish to begin with.
2) By the 8th week for all my fishes to be in a 55 gallon not previously cycled hospital tank, they were starting to show a lot of stress: flame angel exhibited darkening of facial markings like a red mustache, my wrasses hovering near the surface and loosing their appetite and looking like a film was covering their usually brilliant colors. Stress due to daily fluctuation of ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, and not to mention the daily 20+ gallon water changes. Stress leading to poor immunity.
3) I was pressured for time as I was going on holiday for two and a half weeks. My stress, causing me behave more erratically and making bad decisions. Loosing patience and losing sight of what exactly what I was supposed to be doing.
Now, more recently with all my 37 mL every 48 hours dosing of formalin - this one is easy. Mr. Fenner made several comments that my formalin is somehow being absorbed or being taken out of solution. You must have a
magic ball Mr. Fenner! I stupidly left my protein skimmer ON! I was cleaning it every other day and still not recognizing I should have turned it off.
That was why I was not killing ANYTHING!
So on Wednesday night (three nights ago) I performed a 40 gallon water change and dosed my display tank with six and a half teaspoon of quinine sulfate which is 1/4 tsp per 10 gallon. I've read on WWM some conflicting
information on whether quinine will be absorbed or bound by substrate. Dr. Aukes from NFP said NO.
<To some degree he is wrong, materials associated w/ substrate... do so...>
I've turned off my UV sterilizer and my protein skimmer and I will do as told by Dr. Aukes - Treat once and leave in for 7 days. No parameter testing, water condition will be told by fish behavior.
I did note to Dr. Aukes that all my fishes' appetite have decreased since starting treatment and that they are seem more shy and even a little grumpy.
He advised that this is often observed and will continue as they are in treatment.
<We are in agreement here>
I also asked if I need to re dose every seven days for a total of 28 days for the life cycle of C. irritans and he said no - just one treatment.
<And here>
Three days into quinine sulfate treatment - my Powder blue and Kole tang are finally showing a dramatic decrease in bumps and spots. This is the first time in MONTHS that they are actually looking improved. I know I'm not out
of the woods yet, but I will keep my fingers crossed and keep following the advise of those wiser and more experienced.
Thank you Bob, for putting up with my endless e-mails and also to have the patience to point things out to me, even if I miss the "point" several times in a row.
<Clarity is pleasurable. I am satisfied that you have worked out your situation>
I hope to share good news with you in a few weeks...before I go to the Great Barrier Reef.
Thank YOU!
Jamie
<And you. BobF>

26/02/10 Stumped.... Forcipiger hlth., troubleshooting
Hi everyone.
<Hi Jay>
I am quite confused about medicating a Long nose Butterfly.
<Ok>
I recently treated my long nose with Quinine Sulfate for Ich and after about three weeks it's finally gone.
<In Quarantine? Or in-tank? If you did this in tank, then the Crypt will not be gone>
From a previous email one of the representatives from WWM recommended that I treat with a product called PraziPro because my Butterfly was flashing (he said, based on what I told him, he probably has gill flukes).
<Ok>
I started treating with the Prazi and ever since then my BF has increased rapid gill movement and twitches a lot.
<Mmmm>
If in fact he did have flukes, I thought the Prazi was supposed to help kill them.....why are they getting worse?
<Are they flukes? If you remove the fish and freshwater dip him, you might see one or both of two things that would give you a better idea: If he stops flashing afterwards, then it is probably flukes. If you can see specks on the base of the dip container (usually white, so a dark dip container might be prudent), then they also could be flukes. Removal of these and placed under a cheap microscope will confirm. If neither of these happen, then it is probably not flukes>.
He has been clear of spots for over two weeks
<Could have just cycled off... the fish may still be infested with Crypt.. in the gills, thus the heavy breathing & flashing>
and I proceeded with the full treatment recommended for QS. Please help!
<Another possibility here... medication in the water can/ does irritate fishes, to the point where they exhibit 'flashing' behaviour. You might find that with the removal of the medication and improved water quality this will ease off>.
Thank you folks
<No problem, Simon>

BF dis., Quinine use f' 2/23/2010
Hey Crew.....
I value you each and every one of your opinions but I would like Bob's advice on this one if at all possible. I just recently upgraded from a 10g QT to a 20g long QT. I have a small 2.5 inch Heniochus and a 3" Raccoon
(Chaetodon Lunula).
<I do want to (re)state for browsers, that I'd look for larger (but not too large) specimens of Chaetodontids to start>
I have treated my Heni for ten days with Quinine Sulfate. Then added the Raccoon after the full ten day treatment and a few additional days (for a total of about two weeks later). Bodies and fins are clear of spots and there are no visible symptoms of a parasite (rapid breathing, flashing, etc.). My concern here is that my Heniochus has a very slight cloudy glaze over his eyes and fins.
<Likely "just stress" from the treatment... i.e., not parasitic>
I do want to say that even when he had velvet from the start his fins were never cloudy like this. After two weeks of being treated with QS he has developed this (without any spots or symptoms). Is this normal?
<Yes>
Shall I treat with something else? Or will this go away eventually?
<No and yes>
I have called National Fish Pharm. and when I spoke with the Doctor, he said it could be from the treatment of QS.
<Yes; this is so>
There isn't much info regarding this med in your forums or at all on the WWW. Bob, what do you think, I would like your opinion?
Thanks so much
<Welcome. BobF>

re: Hey Crew..... BF exp. Quinine   2/24/10
Thanks a lot for the speedy reply and you are indeed the only one to give me a solid answer on this subject.
Thanks again
<Welcome. BobF>

Treating main tank with quinine sulfate(Crypto Pro) Quinine Treatment 2/16/2010
How's it going Mike? Crew?
<Hi Aaron.>
Well I have taken Mike's advice and have started quinine treatment. (Crypto Pro)
<Excellent!>
I have treated in the display. Turned off uv, skimmer and removed all chemical filtration. I do still have substrate in my tank. Crushed coral.
<Should be fine.>
I am confused on how to properly dose. The bottle says to treat daily with 25% water changes. I contacted NationalFishpharm and Dr. Aukes recommended treating once and leaving for 5-7 days.
<I agree with the doctor.>
Changing 25% every day seems quite expensive as far as salt is concerned.
<I would agree.>
I am currently laid off until spring and am lucky I was able to order the Crypto Pro in the first place. Would you think treating once and leaving for a week will eradicate the ich?
<Personally, with an infestation that was as strong as yours, I would do two courses of treatment, of 5 to 7 days with a 25% water change after each.>
I was worried about substrate adsorbing the quinine?
<No worries there, once the treatment is finished, just turn the filtration on and start running carbon.>
I am sure this is a great medication it's just the instructions are sketchy and in my personal opinion NationalFishPharm's support is not the greatest.
<Sorry to hear that. This is actually the first I've heard that.>
<MikeV>

Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress  2/10/10
Hi there,
<Hello>
I started treating my main tank with Quinine Sulphate for ich last night.
(my QT broke while setting it up) Per the instructions I treated with 1/4th teaspoon.
My plan is to do the 9 day treatment with water changes every 3rd day before the new dose. My problem is, though I removed all snails to a bucket with an aerator there were more than a few Bristle worms in the tank I
could not get. Actually, I didn't realize I had so many.
Fish in tank include- Raccoon B/F, True Perc, Blue Tang, juvenile Mappa Puffer
<Are you treating the fishes in the main, display tank? Not advised>
I noticed one of my fish, the Raccoon B/F looking a tad stressed. I also haven't been able to find my Puffer so I tested the water.
Ph 7.9
Nitrate 32
Ammonia was at least 50 on the color meter however I'm not very good with color cards so its plus or minus.
<Mmm, I suspect you've missed the decimal point here... likely 0.50 ppm... half a part per million>
So my question is... I am only on day one or will be at 2 am. I have water made up, should I go ahead and do a water change now?
<... yes. And what otherwise are you doing to limit ammonia?>
If so do I re dose or do I wait the 3 day time period to re treat?
<Need to maintain a physiological dose... re-treat per the amount/percentage of water changed out>
I tried calling National Fish Pharm but they were closed by the time I got home.
<Ahh! They know their "stuff" as well>
Sabrina Roschbach
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the first tray: Quarantine
BobF>
Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress  2/10/10
Hi again,
I am treating my main tank.
My QT broke while being set up.
<Oh yes... I do recall your stating thus>
I know its not a well liked idea, however my Puffer has had ich for 2 weeks now and I felt waiting to buy another tank, setting it up, and so on would not be in her best interest.
<I do agree>
So I placed all snails and hermit crabs in one of my cleaned salt buckets with an aerator and began treatment. Also, there is no guess work in the math because the website gives directions for treating main tanks with live rock and sand. I called National Fish Pharm this morning before I received your reply.
<I see>
The woman I spoke with said that any ammonia testing would be false readings. That once you start using Quinine Sulphate none of your tests will be accurate.
<Really? With all types of reagents? Might I ask for this person/woman's name? I'd like to contact her re the underlying science here. There are false-negatives with some "water conditioners" and some colorimetric assay
chemicals... but I am unfamiliar with any that are affected with Quinines>
She said the only way to know that there may be a problem is if the fish are OBVIOUSLY stressed i.e. breathing fast, going to the surface to breath and so on. Because my fish aren't doing this she advised me to not do anything and continue following the directions. (The Raccoon B/F is actually doing better now, though I'm not sure why)
Now when I started the treatment all of my levels were good
Ph 8
Nitrate 10
Ammonia 0
She also said I could return my snails and hermits to the main tank once I had ran the filtration system for 2 days doing a large water change both days.
<Mmm... a "trade off" between waiting long enough for removal of the compound, and the likelihood of damage from improper (waiting) environment for sure>
Do you agree with both of her assessments?
<I do not have sufficient confidence in my understanding to have an opinion here>
Oh and as a side note and added unexpected yet welcomed benefit... My Aiptasia problem is LONG GONE!!! YAY! lol
<Ah, good!>
Also I wanted to thank you for all of you frank and helpful advice.
<Certainly welcome>
You don't baby people; you don't let them (me included) get away with lazy research and sloppy husbandry and though it can be hard to take, because of this expectation I believe it has helped make me a better aquarist.
<Outstanding.>
Sabrina Roschbach
<And I thank you for your ongoing patience and sharing. BobF>

Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress, Effect on Ammonia testing  - 2/10/10
The woman I spoke with was Pat. She said that she or Dr. Brian Aukes can answer any and all questions re the false readings though Dr. Brian Aukes would be better at answering your questions. I don't know if ALL tests will
be effected however she did specifically say ammonia tests.
<Thank you for this follow up>
I will be picking up a new QT, even if its just a 10$ Wal-mart aquarium, in the next day or two. I don't believe keeping the snails and crabs in a bucket for close to two weeks would be the best way to go here.
<Agreed>
I am very interested in the science behind the reagents as well and would very much like to know more. If you could reply letting me know what you find I would greatly appreciate it. If you cant or don't remember (y'all are
very busy over there) I will just check back re Quinine.
<I will do so>
I would very much like to know if I should do the water change or not. I am torn between the possibility of altering the treatments to an ineffective state and lowering the ammonia because though they aren't looking stressed
it's just not a healthy way for them to live.
<Mmm, the "bio-assay" of livestock behavior is most useful/indicative here, but, when in doubt, I would change some water out>
Thank you again
Sabrina Roschbach
<And you, BobF>
nationalfishpharm@yahoo.com
Brian, re a query, statements on WWM - 2/10/10
Would you please point me to the stoichiometry, other indication of co-reaction in water quality/Ammonia tests producing false negatives with Quinine? Please see the corr. below re.
Bob Fenner, WetWebMedia

Brian, re a query, statements on WWM... Quinine interference w/ Ammonia tests
Would you please point me to the stoichiometry, other indication of co-reaction in water quality/Ammonia tests producing false negatives with Quinine? Please see the corr. below re.
Bob Fenner, WetWebMedia
Subject: RE: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress
The woman I spoke with was Pat. She said that she or Dr. Brian Aukes can answer any and all questions re the false readings though Dr. Brian Aukes would be better at answering your questions. I don't know if ALL tests will
be effected however she did specifically say ammonia tests.
<Thank you for this follow up>
I will be picking up a new QT, even if its just a 10$ Wal-mart aquarium, in the next day or two. I don't believe keeping the snails and crabs in a bucket for close to two weeks would be the best way to go here.
<Agreed>
I am very interested in the science behind the reagents as well and would very much like to know more. If you could reply letting me know what you find I would greatly appreciate it. If you cant or don't remember (yall are
very busy over there) I will just check back re Quinine.
<I will do so>
I would very much like to know if I should do the water change or not. I am torn between the possibility of altering the treatments to an ineffective state and lowering the ammonia because though they aren't looking stressed it's just not a healthy way for them to live.
<Mmm, the "bio-assay" of livestock behavior is most useful/indicative here, but, when in doubt, I would change some water out>
Thank you again
Sabrina Roschbach
<And you, BobF>
Re: Again: Brian, re a query, statements on WWM 2/21/10
Many medications and water treatments will throw off water testing.
Especially these low dollar reagent test kits. Many times these reagents are expired and you are getting false test results right out of the box.
You must use common sense when keeping tropical fish. Note behavior, feeding habits etc. You cannot rely on a low dollar test kit for accurate results.
If the fish are hanging at the top of the tank and gasping for air... I would say that you have high ammonia or nitrites and that a water change should be done immediately.
If your test kit is giving you a false reading (which can happen frequently), and it shows high ammonia levels: Look at the fish. Are they swimming around just fine? This is where the common sense part kicks in.
Best regards,
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhD
c/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals
<Okay... not the specifics to the question I was looking for, but sound advice in general. Thank you, Bob Fenner>

Re: Again: Brian, re a query, statements on WWM, Quinine/s + NH3 tests  – 02/22/10
Hi Bob,
If I were to explain it in stoichiometry as you requested... nobody would understand it.
<Most, no>
You must explain things as a hobbyist would understand it and not get so technical. Being that Quinine is an Alkaloid, this would get very confusing.
Again: Most medications and water treatments will throw your tests off.
Best regards,
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhDc/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals
<Am familiar w/ some interactions with Nessler's and PVP... but not Quinines; again thank you for your efforts. BobF>

Re: statements on WWM, Quinine/s + NH3 tests – 02/22/10  2/24/10
Bob,
<Simon>
Just to add my personal experience with ammonia (salicylate) & nitrite tests and Chloroquine Phosphate. I have been using the API tests for both with this medication for some time now (on several occasions) and have found no
unusual results.
<Ahh, I have/had found no such notes by others either...>
Indeed, results have been as I would expect in a QT tank with no med, i.e. a modest increase seen in both as the tank matures, along with increases in ammonia after feeding, and decreases in both with water changes, and as the filter matures.
Simon
<Thank you for this. BobF>

Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress – 02/12/10
Hi Bob/Crew,
<Sabrina>
So its 2:30 AM and am still up because ALL of my fish in my main tank were freaking out. Just a recap, I started treating my main tank with Quinine Sulphate 3 days ago, because my QT broke during set up and my fish have had ich for a while. (2 weeks plus by now) I did a 25% water change yesterday (even though it was early) because ammonia was high +/- .50.
<Good move>
I tested the water this evening because of fish stress, and ammonia was at the 4 mark at least!!!! There was no way I could do a large enough water change to make a dent. However, earlier today I went out and got 2 smallish QT's THANK GOD!!! I had just enough salt water made up to move the fish to the two tanks
<Good>
I guess I had A LOT more die off of bristle worms than I thought. I have followed the directions to the T. I had even stopped feeding them because of the risk of ammonia spikes. (this was done per National Fish Pharm).
<I agree>
My poor poor little Raccoon B/F was so very stressed that parts of him had turned black and white in mixed places. He basically looked like he had been in a fist fight and lost.
<"Ammonia burn">
My poor fish are all just a mess. My puffer who is normally dark bodied with whitish spots is now almost a burnt orange brown... I believe she's secreting slime due to the stress of it all, though she's eating so that's a plus. (fed her just after I moved her to the new QT.)
Mostly this is just a rant type thing because man oh man was I lax on my QT habits before, but now... I will never be again!! I just want people to know, If you LOVE your fish the way I love mine quarantine them!!! Use fw dips!!! Do it all!!!
<Thank you for this>
Also I wanted people to know that treating the main tank with this isn't like just adding purple up or something. This is a BIG pain in the behind. When I had read the FAQ portion on your site people would say they are treating with Quinine and not give any indication of a problem. Please people be WARNED!!! ALL of my bristle worms are dead. The massive die off caused, I believe, the TOXIC over load of ammonia in the tank and almost killed all of my fish. I still have no idea if they will recover. Other than the Puffer the only one eating is the Raccoon. Just be SMART.
<And this>
I guess I do have a question or two.
My puffer was the only fish showing signs of ich though I believed, and still do, that my Skunk Cleaner Shrimp may have been the main reason the others didn't show signs of the plague, as they made regular visits to Mr. Clean.
Any way, my question is, my Puffer was treated for 3 days and still has white spots on her. Shouldn't they have fallen off by now? Most people report them falling off around day 2 or 3.
<More may be "climbing back on" (do you have a good grasp of the causative agents life cycle here?), or the spots could be "just mucus" from skin irritation...>
Also, now that my Puffer is in the QT but stressed to hell and back how should I proceed? Should I continue with the treatment or should I stop the treatment and give her a week or so to recoup?
<I would continue w/ the treatment. Too likely that co-reactions in your main system interfered with, "took up" the medicant>
Thank you for "listening" to my rant. And thank you very much for your time.
Sabrina
<And thank you for your continuing efforts, communication. BobF> 

Ich: Dosing main tank again. 2/3/2010
Hey Crew,
<Hi again Aaron.>
Well I'm back with more questions. Again, I have ich in my system.
<I remember. I seem to recall you were going to set up a FW Ray system as well.>
I am treating in my display with Cupramine.
<We've been over this before. Treating the main tank is a very bad idea unless you are treating with quinine. Copper is only going to kill the free swimming stages of the parasite.>
I know, not the best idea. I just don't have the ability to set up a big enough quarantine. I have taken all my rock out but I do still have substrate in the tank. I have been treating for about three weeks now and this darn ich is not going away. My substrate at first had absorbed some of the copper so it was a battle to keep the levels where they should be.
<Typical, which is why it is recommended to treat in a bare bottomed tank.>
For the last week to week and a half they measure within range. Could this be a resistant strain? Have my levels not been therapeutic long enough?
<If you are treating the main tank with copper, yes, it can take weeks http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
All of my fish are eating good and for the most part acting normal. Every other time I have used Cupramine it has cleared it up in no time.
<It cleared up on the fish, the parasite is still in your tank.>
Just don't get it? I was thinking possibly another parasite of some sort.
But wouldn't the Cupramine eradicate it as well? I have a few copper sensitive fish in the tank and don't want to expose them any more than I have to. Without the possibility of quarantine what would you guys say is my best attack method?
<Again, quinine....http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm >
Thank you again for your expert advice on this. Without a lfs in the area with a knowledgeable staff I have nowhere else to turn.
<MikeV>

To medicate or not to medicate (while in quarantine)? 2/1/2010
Good morning Crew -
<Good afternoon Chris>
After a long, unsuccessful battle with crypt a few months back, I'm in the slow process of restocking my tank. I've read and researched, asked questions and am doing whatever I can to not make the same mistakes I made the first time around. The end result is that I've got a few new quarantine tanks in the basement (one each for fish, inverts/algae, corals) and I've become a bit of a QT Nazi, for lack of a better description.
<Yes, but whereas the Nazi’s were bad, quarantine is definitely good!>
There are dozens of techniques/methods for acclimating new arrivals (dips, baths, etc.) and a host of procedures for quarantining / treating all of the different critters that will someday make themselves at home in my living room, and differences range from the benign to the extreme
<yes they do>.
I've taken what I believe the be the best information from all of the different sources I've read, and have acclimation and QT procedures for fish, mobile inverts, sessile inverts; all of which are manageable for me, within the confines of my available space/time/resources, and, I believe, give me the best chance of not introducing another deadly and/or destructive organism into my tank.
<It sounds like you have taken a lot of time and effort to learn all of this which is to your credit and will be to the benefit of the creatures that you keep>.
There's one part of the QT process that I'm unclear on, however, that I'd like another opinion on.
<Ok, but be advised that all you will get is my opinion. You must come to your own conclusions with reading, learning and experience>
After doing any dips/baths I feel necessary upon inspection of new arrivals/purchases, once the animal is in quarantine, should I treat it if I see no obvious signs of any disease?
<For invertebrates I would not, but for fishes I personally treat all with Chloroquine Phosphate. This viewpoint is not shared by all however, there are other, equally valid, courses/ actions>.
I'm a big fan of 'if its not broken, don't fix it' but I've been told that I'm playing with fire by not using  copper/formalin/malachite green or something other for unseen crypt parasites, or hyposalinity and increased temps for crypt and any other potential fish-killers.
<Yes, but with the advent of C.P. I feel that many concerns about unnecessarily medicating fishes are negated>.
Then there's flat-worm exit for corals, interceptor, fluke-exit, etc. etc.
<Yes, there are….>
For now, my thinking is that the fishes have been through enough already when they get to my house. I dip (m. blue or iodine), then just maintain good, clean, stable water conditions and watch for disease (or unwanted inverts riding along with corals) in quarantine.
<This is a perfectly valid procedure, I use a freshwater dip before QT myself>
If nothing turns up over the course of 35 days, I acclimate to main tank water, introduce to the reef, and enjoy with the family. <Yes> If something warrants further attention while under observation, needs medication more drastic measures, I deal with it as it comes. Am I okay with this line of thought, <Yes, I think you are> or should I really employ some sort of chemical warfare against unseen enemies during the quarantine period?
<Well, there are no rules here. IMO with the more hardy fishes there is no reason not to use C.P. It is your choice with the more sensitive ones, and with fishes that do not stand well to protracted QT procedures (for example Ctenochaetus Tangs are not good survivors). As long as you are using a QT tank and watching for anything unusual then you will avoid most problems, whether or not you resort to ‘chemical warfare’>
Thank you,
<No problem>
Chris
<Simon>

28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P.   1/29/10
Well, my aquarium has ICK and I can't find proper advice about how to handle this particular and urgent situation.
<Ok, let’s see if we can help>
The problem is, as I understand all the fish must be placed in quarantine for 8 weeks until the main tank becomes 99% ICK free.
<Yes, dependant on severity and situation>
I have an assortment of 10 fish. Copperband Butterfly, 2 black and white clowns, 2 Anthias (I think Bartlett's), 1 Royal Grammas, 1 Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Bluestreak Wrasse, 1 Diamond Goby, 1 Randall's Goby.
<Hmmmm, some of these fishes may not fare well with a prolonged QT period>
I am not sure whether to go with copper or hypo, but am currently leaning towards hypo.
<I would use neither. Chloroquine Phosphate is my weapon of choice: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
I tried garlic, both in the tank and soaked in food.
<Won’t work>
Also tried No-Ick.
<In-tank medication? No good IMO>
Those attempts haven't solved the problem, although they did take up valuable time. Now I am running out of time.
The Gramma is the worst. Still eating, but appears to be losing scales and I can see the discomfort and scratching. The butterfly is the next most adversely affected. I can't see Ick on the others, but the Anthias and Wrasse are scratching.
<They are all infested, mostly in their gills where you can’t see the skin reaction to the parasite>
I understand from WWM that Gobies and Blennies cannot take long periods in quarantine. Especially sand sifters.
<This is a difficult and trying time. These decisions and actions can easily result in the death of fishes, especially sensitive ones>
But I still need to keep them out of the main display for 8 weeks.
<Yes you do, in fact Noga suggests 3 months is necessary, but this is too long a QT period for most fishes by far>
I am hoping for advice on how to quarantine all for 8 weeks, with no substrate,
<Very carefully, in as large a QT tank as possible. Ammonia is the killer here, as long as you can keep the fishes feeding well, and keep TOTAL ammonia to zero (or at least as low as 0.25 temporarily at first) this CAN be done. However, this requires extreme effort on your part and is a very stressful time, trust me I know>.
or do I take the chance and quarantine the Gobies and Blenny for 2-4 weeks, or for as long as they can take it, and then put them back in the main tank?
<No, you will put back all of your hard work if you do this. I would use Chloroquine Phosphate in your QT tank, with some sponges (inert) in a canister or other large filter. I would purchase some of this fancy ‘instant-nitrifying bacteria-in–a-bottle’ stuff – Hagen’s ‘cycle’ is the one I have used successfully (Check the expiry dates) – and keep pouring this stuff in over the first two weeks of treatment to help build up a biological filter. Feed sparingly and test ammonia twice daily for the first two weeks, when you are happy with the ammonia long term, increase feeding, and test ammonia once a day after. Use water changes where you have to. DO NOT cease feeding, as some fishes will refuse to eat afterwards if you do this. This is why this is difficult to manage>.
How can the Diamond Goby survive even a few days in the no substrate hospital tank without satisfying its nature to constantly sift sand?
<hmmm, you could add some new dry sand to the QT after two weeks of CP treatment if you like. There has also been some success with using this med in the presence of a substrate but doing this is a bit ‘hit-and-miss’ as far as I understand. Maybe other crew members might know more about this, am copying into the main ‘in-box’ here>.
The other problem is my currently available hospital tank is only 29 gallons and I am pretty sure this is too small?
<Yes, by far - there is a good chance that some of your fishes will die. The danger is that when your fishes go into QT they will refuse to feed, or bully and stress each other in the confined space. Another danger is that the feeding itself plus the excretion from the gills will produce ammonia that will kill them. Doing massive water changes in such a small setting will stress the fish further, especially if they are daily. My advice is to purchase a larger QT tank>.
I certainly am amazed and appreciative of all that you do for the world of aquarium enthusiasts. I have learned a tremendous amount from WWM.
<Well, that’s great Peter and so have I! A plug for the use of quarantine BEFORE introduction for all livestock is appropriate here, and although my opinion differs from that of other crew members on this, I believe that all fishes should be quarantined with the prophylactic use of C.P.>.
Thanks,
<No problem Peter. If you go this road then diligence is required here, beware of complacency as this will kill your fish as surely as anything else. Please write back for more help with this if you need it, I fully sympathise with what you are going through and am more than willing to help further>.
-Peter
<Simon><<Well-done Simon. BobF>>

Re: 28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 1/30/10
<Hello Peter>
Very, very much appreciated. I am amazed at the quick response.
<That's what we're here to do>
I will implement the suggestions and report back. I probably researched ICK treatment 50 hours over the last two weeks and nothing I came across was as concise and accurate as this. Myself and all my fish are indebted to you.
<That's marvelous!>
Thank you,
-Peter
<Simon>

Re: 28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 2/1/2010
<Hello Peter>
I haven't yet started the ICK QT treatment recommendation since I still have to find and buy a larger QT tank set-up to accommodate all 10 fish. Not trying to reinvent science, but I have a new theory based on limited results and I hope to hear your expert opinion.
<Ok>
I did purchase a JBJ 13 Watt Submariner in-tank UV Sterilizer with the plan to put the UV in the QT tank that I planned to purchase, to help reduce the amount of free swimming ICK.
<This is no good, as UV will render most medications inactive, especially Chloroquine phosphate as this is photosensitive. The only method with which this would be of benefit would be with hyposalinity in a QT tank>.
I have not used UV prior but seemed to read that UV will kill some ICK at low flow rates past the UV bulb.
<Yes>
I also understand that UV kills some of the good stuff too.
<Yes, but not a major concern as there should be plenty more ‘good stuff’ in the system. That is, if you have not killed it off already by using supposed ‘reef safe’ treatments in your main system. These are not reef safe, as much of the microscopic life that is integral to your ‘reef’ is killed off, to the detriment of all>.
Anyhow, I temporarily put the UV Sterilizer in the main tank and am quite surprised at how crystal clear the tank water becomes. I don't know if some microscopic ICK are being removed by the UV,
<probably yes> but there is certainly a noticeable improvement in water clarity.
<Be sure to keep the quartz shaft clean, the bulb replaced and the correct flow rate through – a lot of work for not such a huge benefit. More useful is Ozone IMO>.
Common opinion tends to indicate that UV will kill some of the ICK, but this isn't a method to completely rid a tank of the disease since 100% of the tank water will not pass through the UV.
<Correct>.
Purchasing a large QT tank to accommodate all 10 fish along with the associated difficulties of the 8 week QT process is a little daunting
<It is good that you find it daunting – this means that if you go this road you are more likely to succeed because you know the potential pitfalls>
which would be nice to avoid, if possible.
<I understand where you are coming from here>.
So I was wondering, if purchasing another UV Sterilizer for the other side of the tank, <I wouldn’t – for reasons stated> or even two more UVs, <no> coupled with the unconventional methods of heavy garlic <maybe a little mixed w/ some vitamins in the food>, increasing the tank temperature to speed up the ICK life cycle,
<this is playing with chemistry to try to ‘fix’ something. Not a good route IMO> maybe lower salinity to 1.014 or so,
<no point in doing this unless it is 1.009, and many strains of crypt have survived even this> vitamins to help boost the fish self defense mechanisms
<I would do this>
and perhaps in-tank medication such as Kick-Ich
<I would never use a med. in my main system for various reasons. I have in the past, and regretted it> could collectively become a full solution to rid the tank of ICK.
<I’m sorry to say Peter that even if you applied all of these it will not rid the tank completely. I think you have a choice here between a fallow period and quarantine, or trying to ‘strike a balance’ and accepting that this parasite is with you for good. Really, that choice is down to you and what you think your fishes can take, and whether you think you can manage the system w/ this parasite present. Many do so reasonably successfully, but sometimes the infestation reaches a ‘point of no return’ where action must be taken>.
It seems that some of the new ICK tomites will not find a host fish, some will be zapped by the multiple UV Sterilizers, some may be repelled by garlic <no, this is used to ‘boost’ the immune system>, some may be neutralized by Kick-Ich <not w/ UV present> and the fish immune system may become better equipped to fight off the new reduced amounts of ICK attacks.
<I understand your reasoning, but this won’t work>
My understanding is that ICK newly attached to a fish grows and then leaves the fish in 5-7 days?
<In my experience this can be 1 – 8 days for the visible signs (skin reaction) to disappear>
For the situation to become progressively worse requires a constant supply of new ICK attaching to the fish???
<Yes, but understand that some will remain attached to the fish for longer than others, and more will remain encysted on the substrate for different amounts of time, thus meaning that at any one time in a large infestation all stages of the parasite are present in the system>
Therefore, greatly limiting the amount of new free-swimming ICK should give the fish some short term relief and
hopefully they will be able to ultimately win the battle.
<This is a hope that many have...>
Forgot to mention, regular, even daily partial water changes too, to help remove and further reduce the amount of tomites.
<Yes, but this is best done in a bare bottomed QT with vacuuming/ scrubbing of the sides of the tank>
Is this worth a try, or do you feel that I would just be delaying the inevitable full QT requirement.
<As stated Peter, I think you have but two choices here. If you opt for the ‘balance’ then I would employ some Lysmata shrimps to help ‘ease’ the irritation, but I am sure you are aware, this is not a cure either. From the sounds of the severity of your problem, if it were me & mine I would be carefully QT-ing the lot for 8 weeks>.
Thanks again,
-Peter
<No problem, Simon>

SW med. reading, BFs, Velvet, Copper  – 01/30/10
Hi everyone
Hi again guys lol. Ok, so I am in the middle of a two month fallow period in my 90gal tank due to a velvet outbreak. I currently have my 3..5" Heniochus in a ten gallon
<Yikes>
QT tank with a penguin 150 HOB power filter a heater and some sand in a pouch from my main tank to avoid a level spike (or at least help with it). I have medium amount of circulation and an airstone for oxygen. I just made the first dose of Cupramine.
<... I would not expose these, or most other Chaetodontids to copper... Look into/use a Quinine compound instead. Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Now, the label says to dose this for two weeks
<Not w/o testing for free copper daily>
and your good to go (if no signs of spots or symptoms), but do you think this is long enough?
<I suggest you read re Cu use on WWM>
I know for a face there is velvet in the water because it's the same water that was from my display tank. If not two weeks, what amount of time do you feel is safe enough to say the fish is free of velvet and can be placed back into the display? And, how do you feel about the "Prime" product by Seachem just in case I run into problems with ammonia and water changes aren't completely
cutting it?
Thanks,
J
<Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down... Bob Fenner>

Re more SW dis. w/o reading  1/30/10
Ok thanks Bob. Is there anywhere unparticular that you recommend I purchase Quinine Sulfate from?
<Please read where you were referred to. Sources are listed there. B>
I can't find much online and for a reasonable price at that. And is the success rate with killing velvet as good as that of Copper?
<And this...>
Thanks

30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine   1/31/2010
Hi everyone
<Hello Jason>
I am reading now......only thing is I can't find the answer to my one question.......can I use Quinine Sulfate in my display tank and kill off the Velvet?
<It is not likely to work. The presence of substrate can affect the med, and the lifecycle of the parasite means that it will still be in your system when treatment finishes. This is best done in a QT setting. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm>
It says it does not kill beneficial bacteria.
<Does not, but neither is it likely to the job you want it to here. Simon>.

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine 2/1/2010
<Jason>
Ok Simon, thanks for responding. So since the life cycle is so long with Velvet, how long shall I QT for in order to be sure that the life cycle is complete?
<Have you read where you were referred? 8 weeks ‘fallow’ time>
If the Quinine doesn't get absorbed (hence bare bottom tank), will it work faster?
<No, this will take 8 weeks, although the treatment period is not this long. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>.
Also, I have a lil nylon bag of sand from my main tank in my QT tank to add some beneficial bacteria and help with suppress a new cycle and level spikes. Will that be enough to absorb the Quinine?
<Mmmm, maybe. Maybe not. I would not use this, it may well harbour some parasites as well as absorb the med. Instead I would use some bacteria-in-a-bottle to seed some inert sponges in a filter>.
Or does it have to be a full sand bed in order to absorb it?
<To my knowledge there is no data on this. If there is, or if any of the crew knows more here I am sure they will chip in>.
Thanks
<Simon>

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine – 02/02/10
Ok thanks Simon,
<No problem>
I think you misunderstood me........I was indeed referring to the "treatment period" not the "fallow period". But you did answer my question saying that the treatment period will not be as long as the full 8-week cycle of the parasite.
<That's good news>
Thanks again
<Simon>

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine   2/8/10
Hey guys.
<Hello Jason>
Jeez, I am just full of issues lol. Now I followed what the "crew" suggested and I am using Quinine to treat Velvet.
<Ok>
But my issues now are....AMMONIA/NITRITE (Ammonia almost .25ppm and nitrite the same).
<Yes – the most common reason for mortality in QT tanks by far>
I did use my display tank water (which has been seasoned for over four months)
<No good, as most of the bacteria required are attached to ‘surfaces’>
but apparently ceramic rings and stars weren't enough to keep from having a mini "recycle" of the tank.
<Were these ‘seeded’ or new?>
I am using bacteria (Nite-out by Microbelift) and a product called Prime to help aid in the cycle process along with daily 25% water changes (which all are indeed helping).
<Yes, these are your best methods, although I am unsure if using Prime might interfere with the Quinine>
My concern is that my Butterfly (Chaetodon Ulietensis) will be bothered by the nitrogenous waste (like each and every Butterfly profile on WWM states). Will this be ok temporarily or is there a good chance my Butterfly will pass on?
<Should be ok short term (a few days). This requires diligence on your part, careful observation, testing. You can cease feeding for a few days to help here, but not much longer if you can help it. Feed sparingly afterwards until the ammonia is under control.>
Bob states these are indeed tough, but how tough?
<Mmmm, tough by Butterfly standards yes, but not what I would call tough overall>
Should I be concerned?
<Yes>
Anything else you recommend?
<Mmmm, purchase of a larger QT system.... to use BEFORE introduction of livestock to your display, as well as treating now>
Thanks so much.....AGAIN lol!
<No problem, Simon>
Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine
Thanks again.
<No prob.s>
The bio rings have been in my display tank since I started it four months ago, so they are "used".
<Mmm, lets hope they do not harbour encysted parasites>
Also, for the Quinine, the directions say to use two treatments at full strength? Is this what you would do?
<I would follow the manufacturers directions to the letter>
Is the treatment over after just two doses like the directions state?
<Yes, your fish are placed into the QT tank w/ the med. When the parasites 'drop off' the fishes to encyst they are killed by the med. in the water>.
And what would you recommend I do with the new 20gal QT that I purchase?
<Use it pronto>
Will the water from my ten gallon and the bio rings inside be enough?
<Mmmm, I would transfer all immediately, and top off w/ new water. Keep using the bottled bacteria>
Thanks
<No problem Jason. Do write back w/ your results and watch the ammonia. Simon>

Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine
<Hello again Jason>
Wow that was fast.......lol.
<I was online... Now it is a bleary eyed morning!>
Ok sounds good, I will be in touch with you. I just tested ammonia and I'm at almost zero but nitrite are between 0 and .25ppm.
<This will be ok, keep at it>
So I guess I'm nearing the end of the mini cycle. Which bottled bacteria do you feel is the most effective?
<I've used a couple and found Hagens Cycle to be the best, but there are many I have not tried at all>
And do you like Nite-out?
<I am not familiar w/ the product>
If the bio rings did have encysted parasites the Quinine would still kill them correct?
<No, it won't. If it did then no-one would ever use anything else. To my knowledge there is no chemical that will kill these and not kill everything else, my understanding is that all act on the free swimmers. You will probably be ok here though, but if you are nervous (like me) I would put some inert sponge in a filter in the QT and gradually remove the bio rings bit by bit once you have the ammonia under control, and before you finish the treatment course>
And would the Quinine be just as effective when just treating the water in a QT with no fish?
<? why would you want to do this? You mean in your display sans fish? No.>
All these questions I know.......sorry.
<No problem>
Thanks Simon
<Ok!>

Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine  2/10/10
Hey Simon,
<Hello Jason>
You are of MUCH help in this process, I really appreciate it.
<No problem, but do remember - these problems are of your own making from the lack of use of a QT tank before you add fishes to your display>
To follow up on the last email you sent over to me.....I was referring to treating my QT tank (NOT display tank) with Quinine before I added fish,
<? You mean you have not already acted? I'm scrolling down here and it seems this has been going on for a month. If you suspected Velvet then you should have acted and separated the fishes immediately as James initially advised. I am confused here.. are you purchasing new fish when you have a parasitised system?>
what do you think?
<I would medicate the QT first and then add the fish after, if it was Velvet.... but I suspect since the amount of time this has been going on now (a month) that what you have is actually Cryptocaryon... either way the treatment is the same>
I want to try to kill a lot of the parasites so I don't have to put the new fish into so much stress.
<Mmmm, these will drop off and die in the med. anyway after a few days - most of the stress will come from general QT tank conditions over time>
Also, the directions to the Quinine Sulphate are VERY vague. It says....."Dose 1/4 teaspoon every 24 hours with 25% water changes before each dose....". So how long shall I treat this for?
<Please read here, there is plenty of info that can help you: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Shall I dose daily for a week, for ten days? What do you think? And, unfortunately I just added a Heniochus in my QT and it has Velvet already.
<?>
I started treatment with the Quinine the SAME day I noticed spots on the fish, will the Quinine act quickly enough? Is it a fast acting medication or does it take several days?
<Please read/ learn the lifecycle of this parasite Jason, it is the key to successful treatment and you have been referred to it several times. It is virtually identical to Marine Ich, Cryptocaryon>
Thanks again
<No Problem>
Simon.....your AWESOME!!!
<Simon>

Marine Ich  1/20/10
Hello WWM crew,
<Hi Jeremy>
This is my first time writing to you all so hopefully this goes well. I love your site and have used it in starting my saltwater hobby every step of the way. I live in Oklahoma and recently we encountered a blizzard that caused
a power outage as of a few weeks back.
<No fun>
Causing my water temps to take a drop to almost 65 degrees for a day. I don't know if temp drops can be a cause
directly but maybe due to stress shortly after I noticed my Pink Tailed Trigger fish (I will stick to common names if that's okay)
<Sure. Only important that we communicate clearly, accurately as to what is what>
developed what seemed like my first case of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). Now for my set-up and live stock introduction. Set-up: 125 Gallon FOWLR, Marineland C-360 Canister Filter, Aqua Tech 30/60 Power Filter, Eco Aquilizer (don't crucify me).
<Not a modern or ancient Roman, nor Vlad the Impaler!>
I do not have a protein skimmer at the moment or a UV Sterilizer I know these are considered necessity
<Mmm, no... but I'd trade in the magnetic gizmo and use the money for a skimmer for sure>
but I do weekly 15% water changes every Sunday religiously to keep water parameters in check. Which are all undetectable except for nitrates.
<Which are?>
Although those are in the safe range. Expected with FOWLR tanks. Now for the livestock: Volitans Lionfish,
Stars and Stripes Puffer, Snowflake Eel, Huma Rectangle Trigger, Blue Spotted Puffer, Yellow Tang. Okay now for the problem it has spread to all of my fish I'm guessing the lion fish and stars and stripes puffer haven't shown visible signs but I did my research it doesn't mean they aren't carrying the parasites.
<Correct>
Obviously I do not have a large enough tank to quarantine all my livestock to leave my tank fallow for a month or so. So knowing this I contacted National Fish Pharmaceuticals as that was suggested several times on your site. They suggested Crypto Pro a hobbyist retail version of Quinine Sulfate,
<Good>
and that I could treat using this in my display tank. So that sounded like the best option to me. They gave me
instructions to put in 1/8 teaspoon per ten gallons of water and to leave in the system for 5-7 days removing carbon from my filters. On day three of the treatment it really seemed to be working all was well my fish never stopped eating so there was no change in that but they were itching a lot less. Well then it went down hill from there around day 5 it just seemed to have gotten worse and then it was full blown on every fish but the lionfish. So I am severely frustrated and out of ideas.
<I think the Quinine "ran out"... it got absorbed by various elements in your main display... I would have re-treated>
I haven't lost any fish and would like to keep it that way. I'm not giving up on these guys so I'm open to any
suggestions.
<I would re-treat now. Repeat the dosage in two-three days>
Sorry for being long winded but I figured the more descriptive the better and maybe someone else could relate to my situation. So is there any advice you could give me? I do still have enough Quinine Sulfate for 2 more 5-7 day
doses. or should I try a different approach?
<I would try the QS again myself, as you have it on hand. IF you had Chloroquine Phosphate as well I'd use it instead>
Thanks for everything your team does. Your site is an excellent source of information to any aquarist.
Jeremy Wright
<Sorry to not have responded to you sooner. Bob Fenner><Oh! I've included input we/WWM rec'd today below... Pertinent, useful to you. RMF>

Re: Recommendation for fish illness, Crypt, Quinine trtmt. follow-up  1/20/10
Mr. Fenner,
<Daniel>
I would like thank you for your support and give you an update on my fish treatment using Quinine Sulfate (QS).
<Thank you>
First, I quarantined my lawnmower blenny and mandarin in an 8 gallon system and my Tomini tang to a 24 gallon system. Both tanks were treated with 1/4 tsp of QS for every 10 gallons of water. I performed a water change twice a day to control ammonia as I didn't have/allow the biological filter to establish ahead of time. The water changes were treated with QS and bio-Spira at the time of each change (I did this after speaking with National Fish Pharmaceuticals about the half-life of QS and was told it does lose strength during treatment but the added 'fresh' mix during a water change would not harm the fish).
<Yes... and thank you for this reminder>
After the first treatment (7 days) all the Ich spots on the tang were gone but another problem showed itself, Hexamita.
I started the second treatment of QS on the two systems and also added Metronidazole to the tang's treatment (both are safely mixed and did not stress the fish or effect the biological filter).
<Good>
Yesterday was the end of all treatments. I performed a 25% water change on both systems and added activated carbon to remove the remaining medication. All fish are doing great and will remain in quarantine for 3-4 more weeks for observation and to allow the display to stay fallow a total of 5-6 weeks.
<Outstanding. You have good discipline and a clear, sharp mind... Capacity for relating>
Thanks again for your support! I hope this information will be valuable to others
Daniel
<Indeed it will; rest assured. Bob Fenner> 

Ich and Quinine Sulfate: When to dose: 1/6/2010
Hello,
<Hi John.>
I have a 55 gallon QT setup with 4 fish I newly purchased. The blue hippo tang I purchased has ich spots on him.
<Not really surprising, they seem more prone to it than others.>
The other fish have no ich.
<yet.... They are sharing the same tank, they will get it.>
He usually hides under or in the pvc pipe and appears to be having rapid breathing.
<From the Ich>
I've caught him eating some Nori and some pellets but I'd like for him to eat more.
<Eating at all is a good sign.>
I've added garlic extract and Selcon and it seems like they are not attracted to the food. Should I treat the QT now for ich or wait till my fish eat a lil more?
<Treat now.>
I cycled a large amount of medium (filters) for my QT so I don't have to worry about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate
spikes or building up.
<Good to plan ahead>
From what I've read quinine sulfate can destroy your biological filtration which would in turn give you an ammonia spike. Is this true?
<No, one of the nice things about quinine is that it does not destroy your biological filter>
I've done hyposalinity in the past with success but maintaining a steady pH was the most difficult part.
<Hypo isn't really that effective.>
<have a read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm >
Thanks,
John

Re: At my wits end: Crypt control, lack of QT, Copper in display tank.
Good Candidate for Quinine treatment 12/16/2009
This seems like an expensive treatment.
<Hi Aaron, Yes, it isn't exactly cheap.>
On the website it says to do a 25% water change daily.
<No, it says 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. Treat one time and leave in the water for 5-7 days.
For resistant Ich, treat once every three days with a 25% water change before each treatment. Do at least 3 treatments = 9 day period.>
Is this a must?
<Follow the instructions exactly.>
So basically this treatment is less harmful to my pets?
<Yes>
And will not destroy the biological filtration?
<No it will not. It will kill all snails though.>
<MikeV>

Re: Acclimating Lysmata amboinensis, and CP trtmt.  12/16/2009
Hi Bob,
Thanks a lot, that cleared up almost everything.
<Ahh; clarity is pleasurable>
When I adjust the ph upwards with the system water, how slow should this be done ?
Over how many hours ?
How slowly should I drip the ph adjusted water into the bag water ?
<An hour per full pH point is about right... as a medical student, earnest academic I am sure you appreciate the order of magnitude in Hydrogen ion content, the implications here>
And one last question. Three weeks back you had suggested I use Chloroquine phosphate to treat my fish which showed symptoms of both Crypt and Amyloodinium. Since my qt is not big enough I had to separate the fish into
two batches as I am leaving the display fallow. Most of them are treated in the qt whereas the yellow tang and the cleaner wrasse are treated in a large inert plastic tub. Everything was going on fine until suddenly the water in the container has turned deep yellow about a day back ! Its almost impossible to see the fish and the Tang keeps trying to jump out. What is this due to ?
<A over simplistic jargonistic statement but: "Metabolite interactions"...
Best to...>
Already did a partial water change. Should I go with another larger change and replenish the medicine or not ?
<Change most all the water and re-new the medicine to full concentration.
BobF>

Quinine Sulfate: Good for a stocked tank? Follow up questions on Published WWM FAQs 12/8/2009
Hi WetWeb People
<Hi Thai.>
My blue ring has itch.
<Blue Ringed Angel? ><<Likely Pomacanthus annularis Mike. RMF>>
Was reading the FAQ on itch and I see that MikeV recommended Quinine Sulfate as it is less stressful on fish and also doesn't wipe out the biological filtration like copper.
<This is correct, but as I also stated, it will kill any mollusk in your tank.>
If this is the case can I use it in the main tank.
<It is always preferable to treat in QT, but there are instances where it is beneficial or even necessary to treat a display tank.>
It's a FOWLR. The reason I ask is that I am looking at alternative methods to treat. I have a 375 gallon with 500 pounds of like rock so catching the fish is no easy task, otherwise I would just let it run empty.
<Using it in the tank would likely be beneficial for you then.>
The other problem I have is that my QT tank is only 55 gallons. Not ideal for a six bar angel, blue ring, yellow tang, 9 fusiliers, 3 chromis and 2 triggers.
<Heheh, I agree..>
I am also open to try Garlic in food as an alternative.
<My opinion on garlic is while it may help, it is not a cure.>
My yellow tang and six bar have not contracted white spot so I'm assuming that is natural immune system is doing wonders.
<Or, it just has not caught it yet.>
Also thinking of buying a cleaner goby to help relieve stress.
<They may help, but with your tank, they are more likely to become trigger food.>
Also was reading in the FAQ on itch (have read a lot) that itch or white spot is practically in every system and keeping water level stable is the key.
<Yes>
Therefore is it possible to treat the blue ring angel only in the QT with Quinine Sulphate and leave him for 4 weeks and then re-introduce it to the main tank. Would he just contract it again or will he develop immunity.
<It is still in your tank in high enough quantities, it would catch it again.>
Looking for alternatives as I am going on holiday in 9 days time and nothing else looks practical for now.
<I would use Quinine. You will need a good amount of water made up in advance for the necessary water changes.>
Wanting to know your opinion on this idea and feedback on GARLIC EXTREME.
Had read some stories in FAQ and its successes and am currently will to try any route before going to the sure fire copper route as its worked in the pass.
<Again, I think it can help, but garlic is not going to cure anything.>
PS in Australia so I'm probably messaging at odd times but hope for your input soon
Kind Regards,
Thai Pham
<My Pleasure.>
<MikeV>

Quinine Sulfate: Good for a stocked tank? Follow up questions on Published WWM FAQs 12/10/2009
Thanks heaps MikeV.
<Hi Thai.>
The only thing I need to take out of the tank is the hermit crab then.
<Snails, clams, etc.>
Don't have anything else apart from it, rock and fish. Didn't notice any white spot on blue ring angel today so I might have misdiagnose. Will give it one or two days careful observations before I go try Quinine Sulphate.
Once again thanks for your advice.
<Very good. In response to your other questions in a separate email, It is dosed at 1/4 teaspoon (1.25 ml) per 10 gallons (38 l) with a 50% water change after 7 days. Remove all chemical filtration (Carbon, etc) from the system and turn any UV or skimmers off.>
<As to where to purchase, you can try http://www.nationalfishpharm.com I don't know if they will ship to AU, but it is worth a look, Otherwise, you can consult with a veterinarian.>
Thai
<MikeV>

Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich  12/3/09
Greetings to my FAVORITE people at WWM!
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate Bob and the whole crew.
<I sense your earnest friendship and thank you>
Well, I should have taken Bob's advice on November 10th and removed all my fishes from my 225 gallon reef and treated them with hyposalinity and ordered Quinine Sulphate. Not listening to wisdom caused me the lives of my favorite Kole Tang, two little Neon Gobies, and I think my Filament Wrasse
(his MIA since Thanksgiving night when I DID FINALLY TOOK ALL THE FISHES OUT).
The reason for me to write is not only to pay respect for the knowledge at WWM but also to share some information that I've learned about Quinine Sulphate and some "other" treatments.
<Ahh, please do>
I wasted time by attempting to treat with "REEF SAFE" products: Ich Attack, Herbtana, Kick Ich. They were all indeed REEF SAFE, my hermits, shrimps, urchin, worms were all alive and well after two weeks of using those products concurrently. I can't say they killed ich because my fish still had them, but I cannot say that they might not help them some as they did not decline in health until after two weeks. But this delay caused the lives that I will feel guilty about for much time to come.
So, on Thanksgiving night I enjoyed moving 260 pounds of live rock and corals out of my tank to catch the fishes. PBTang, Atlantic Blue Tang, Flame Angel, Cleaner Wrasse (I know not to ever get these again from what I've learned here at WWM), Lubbock's Wrasse, Clown Fairy Wrasse are currently doing much better in a 55 gallon hospital tank. PBT and ABT were treated with a pH and temperature matched fresh water dip prior to entering the hospital tank since they were showing the worst infection.
I then treated with hyposalinity that was dropped over 3 days to 1.009 and then raised over 3 days to 1.020. (Yeah - they did not stay at 1.009 for more than 36 hours as I decided to treat with the Quinine and I needed to bring salinity back up.)
Tonight is day 1 of Quinine Phosphate treatment.
I dosed at 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. I recommend that people mix this medication in some tank water prior to putting it in the tank - it sort of clumped up when put directly in the tank but it is slowly dissolving.
I contacted National Fish Pharmacy due to conflicting information regarding dosing schedule. Dr. Aukes there recommended to do ONE treatment and let the medication sit in there without a water change for seven days.
<I concur>
Then a 50 percent water change at the end of seven days. Make sure that UV, protein skimmer are turned OFF. Remove all carbon, Purigen, etc.
<Yes, all chemical and physical filtration needs to be off, removed>
Since giving medications, all fishes are looking fine without any signs of additional stress. Interestingly they are showing areas where they've been scratching on their skin.
<Yes... pits>
They are actively eating (by the way - Nat'l Fish Pharm recommends that you DO NOT FEED during treatment to keep water parameters in acceptable range.)
<Mmm, I'd be feeding sparingly>
I will be feeding some because I think it is good that they eat but will be monitoring parameters closely and will use water that I'm made up especially with the purpose of changing water if needed. (20 gallon tank with SG 1.023 and 1/2 teaspoon of Quinine pre-made on the same date - this way, I believe that the medications will have the same effectiveness with it's half life.)
I had read at WWM.com that light should be turned off. Dr. Aukes explained that only UV light would affect the medication. Lights can stay on with Quinine treatment.
<I agree with this as well>
Well, I do apologize for this long winded recap of the events but just in case if Chris is not the receiver of this e-mail.
<I will send it on to him>
Again, I cannot thank all of you enough to educate me about the lives that we take from the ocean. I will always listen to the advice of the wise, and Bob - you are very wise!
<Heeee! Perhaps a wise-n-heimer at times>
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<And you for sharing your experience, learning here Jamie. You have thus saved MANY folks trouble and MANY fish livestock their health. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich – 12/09/09
Hello Bob and Crew at WWM!
Just wanted to give you an update on the Quinine Phosphate treatment and ask a question.
<Please do>
Day 6 of QP and all is looking good. No sign of reinfection or secondary infection after ich "fell off" on day 2 -3 of QP. Skin on all the fishes have been cleared and NO SPOTS!
Well, it sure feels good to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel after those very "exciting" three weeks. They are weeks that I hope that I will NEVER have to re-live.
<Amen>
I'm thinking of continuing the QP for a total of 10 days instead of 7 due to Cryptocaryon irritans' life cycle. I'm not sure at which stage QP is effective against C. irritans, do you know?
<Mostly during the free-swimming stage/s>
All fishes are responding well without signs of undue stress. I've had to do 10 - 20 gallon water changes daily on the 55 gallon hospital to keep ammonia in check as I did not have a cycled tank to start out with (I will be ready
if there is a need in the future!).
My question is that I am going on holiday to the Maldives to do some snorkeling with hubby (Yippi) and my original plan was to put the fishes BACK TO DT which will be fallow for 5 weeks at 10 days before we leave, that way, I can observe them and if I need to, "capture" them if re-infection occurs BEFORE we leave. The choice then would be to take them to my LFS and they will keep them in a 30 gallon running in series with the 10,000 gallon system. Plan two, is to get a bigger QT, maybe a 90 gallon, run that just like the hospital tank (bare bottom with PVC condo and plastic plants, couple of coral skeletons) with seeded filter from my other "ich free" tanks. That way, my DT can remain fallow for as long as I need - 10 plus weeks, and if the fishes break out with ich while we are gone, they will be easier to catch.
<I'd go with your first choice, plan here>
I also wanted to just say a really sincere, THANK YOU, to Bob and everyone at WWM. The amount of valuable information presented at WWM is truly amazing. I've been reading and learning about QT, Dips, and responsible aquarium keeping from you all, and I do believe that if it is not for this web site, I would not have these adoring creatures that are trying to get me to go feed them right now.
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<Ahh! Most welcome Jamie. And have a great trip to the Maldives. Bob Fenner>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich – 12/09/09
Hi Bob!
<Hello Jamie!>
Thanks for the quick response!
Just to make sure that I understand you right...
You said to put them back in the display tank after 5 weeks running fallow instead of leaving them in a bigger hospital tank and wait till after I come back to put them in the DT?
<Yes. I would do the former: return these fishes to the main display>
Is your reasoning behind this that the tank should be rid of C. irritans after five weeks and it would be less  stressful
on the fishes in the DT?
Jamie
<Exactly. Cheers, BobF>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich – 12/09/09
I see what you mean.
I've been looking into this "empty" tank for the past several days and I see all sorts of life there: I learned about Columbellids from Lynn and know that they are flourishing in my tank making lots of egg sacks and seeing some teeny tiny babies crawling around on my glass, whole families of copepods living on this hole-y piece of rock - I never knew they can get as big as half an inch with their whiskers,
<Some species considerably larger!>
I learned that I don't have to "feed" the corals and they are growing just fine with the nutrients produced by the life in the tank.
<Yes>
The night I took the fishes out, all I saw was a bunch of rocks piled in water but now it is teaming with life - it will be a lovely home for the fishes when they feel better. Not to mention, I'll feel better as I swim with their relatives in the Maldives.
Have a wonderful evening Bob, and good night!
:)
Jamie
<Ahh! Thank you Jamie. BobF>

Quarantine and Ich prevention   11/3/09
Hi crew,
<Good morrow to you Claudio>
First of all, a big thank for your effort and precious info on the site.
<Welcome>
I have a question on proper quarantine protocol and specifically on ich prevention in the display tank.
<Ok>
My display tank is a 180 g reef that I am trying to keep it as disease free as I can to the best of my ability. I am quarantining pretty much everything wet I place inside the display, fish corals, rocks and even the Chaetomorpha I initially placed in the refugium.
<Sounds good>
(the only things I failed to quarantine were snails, 2 clams and a Linckia starfish. I know I took a risk there but I was not sure how to properly quarantine and feed these animals). My display has been running very well and so far completely disease free for the 6 months it has been operational.
<All right>
Discussing with many in the hobby I repeatedly hear that a ich free tank is a myth.
<Mmm, are actually rare, but such "unicorns" do exist>
I do not subscribe to this statement. As any transmissible disease, if the offending parasite is not introduced, it may be difficult but certainly possible to have a ich free system.
<We are in agreement; and I have been to aquaculture facilities of size that are specific pathogen free>
Given this premise my question is on a proper quarantine protocol and here I am a little bit confused. As I read the FAQ on QT it is recommended over and over to QT the fish withholding any treatment unless disease become evident. As far as crypto is concerned I believe it is a safe assumption to consider any purchased fish to at least be
colonized by ich. Surely these fish will have encountered ich at some point in their journey to our tanks, either in the sea, in the transhipper holding tanks or the LFS.
<Mmm, possibly. I suspect that the prevalence of Cryptocaryon in the wild is not high... and many collectors, wholesale facilities are set up to individually sterilize shared water, utilize net and specimen container sterilizing techniques...>
Most will have received copper treatment at some point,
<Again, this is a fading practice. The larger, better wholesalers do not use copper IME>
however one cannot be sure if the proper concentration and necessary time to eradicate the parasite has been
observed.
<I do agree with this statement>
The QT protocol I have been using is to place new fish on the QT.
Acclimate for several days, then start treatment with Quinine Sulphate dosed according to manufacture instructions. This medication opposite to copper causes minimal disruption to the biologic filter and ammonia spikes have not been a problem. Almost all fish have tolerated this well, only exception was a diamond goby that appeared overly stressed..
<Could be attributed to handling, the small environment>
After treatment (usually takes 9 days) the fish are dipped in fresh water with metilene
<Methylene>
blue and then introduced in the display tank.
Is my reasoning flawed or perhaps I am just over killing?
<Well... as you state you did not isolate some other livestock... these Protozoan complaints can be vectored by anything wet), there is some chance there of contamination... But I don't consider your protocol to be
excessive>
I am relatively new to the hobby and I would truly appreciate if any of you could elaborate on the matter. This would be very helpful to me and possibly other who are trying o do "the right thing".
Thanks
Claudio
<I think you're fine here. Bob Fenner>

Re: Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F   11/3/09
Thanks for all the great help once again. Quick follow-up...
Should I use Chloroquine phosphate (CP) in the treatment tank now "just to be safe", or should I wait to see if there are any sure signs of ich?
<If I had it on hand, I would administer it>
I'm just about done with the hypo treatment, so I wouldn't want to subject the fish to longer time in QT-like conditions for another month if unnecessary. One of the FAQs suggested not using hyposalinity with CP. Do you agree with this?
<Can add stress... but if all the fish livestock are in good health otherwise...>
If so, I'll need to take a week or so to up the salinity before starting CP.
<Okay>
If I go ahead and use CP in the treatment tank, is it necessary to perform a bath before returning the fish to the display?
<Not necessary, no>
Also, in the treatment tank, I had put in some sand and a few live rocks to make the fish comfortable and to give a head start on the bacteria since I was adding so many fish to a new startup (also had to use Stability and Prime and plenty of water changes until the ammonia and nitrites were down to zero). Lighting has been very low (and I'll turn off the tank lights entirely during treatment), so there's not much in the way of
algae. Should I remove the sand and/or rocks before using the CP?
<I would not. The chance, likely loss of biofiltration there is appreciable>
Or is it safe to leave the sand and rocks, since there are no inverts/corals and little algae in the treatment tank?
<I would, yes>
I guess I will find a new home for the lion (sad). Even a neon cleaner goby would be at risk.
<Mmm, actually, not too likely.>
I saw a recommendation of 2 cleaner shrimp per 50g. If I wanted to get a neon goby as well, do I need to scale back the number of cleaner shrimp, or does it not matter, since neither the goby nor the shrimp rely exclusively on parasites to feed?
<Up to you>
I was thinking about 6 L. amboinensis, 2 L. debelius and 1 G. oceanops.
Thanks again!
Sean
<Welcome. BobF>
RE: Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F
Wow! That was fast, and VERY helpful. Thanks again!
<Welcome. B>

Re: Harlequin Tusk, hlth. Quinine cpd. sources  – 11/03/09
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am interested in trying quinine compounds to treat crypt. Do fish stores supply it or is it available from drug stores?
What are some brands available? Thanks again.
John Catanzariti
<Can be procured through a human MD, veterinarian, or some specialty etailers... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
BobF>

Copper and quarantine tank: A textbook opportunity to use Quinine. 8/23/2009
Hi Crew.
<Hi Claudio.>
First of all thank you for the wonderful site.
<Our pleasure.>
I have a question on copper use and quarantine tanks.
<Shoot.>
Here is the situation. I upgraded from a 40G SW tank to a 180G. The 180G has ~ 160 lb of rocks that have been cured for 1-1/2 months on a separate vat. The 180G has been running for about a week cycling with a cooked shrimp. It has not gone through the ammonia spike, nitrite, nitrate process yet. In the meantime I took down the old tank that was succumbing to Cyano and hair algae (I have never been able to keep NO3 and PO4 low for some reason). I saved the live rocks, cleaned them and placed on a separate container with a powerhead and no light.
<Thank you for these details.>
I placed the fish ( a yellow tang and a clown fish) into a 20G quarantine tank with a hang on filter and a remora C hang on filter. The quarantine tank was properly cycled and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 2 ppm nitrate.
<All sounds good so far.>
My fish at some point years ago had ich, they got over it and never had it again. I would hate to introduce ich on the new 180g and probably my fish are colonized by it even without evident infection.
<it is a safe bet it is in your tank, as well as everyone else who keeps a SW tank It is just a matter of keeping the infection under control.>
For this reason I decided to quarantine the fish and treat them with copper  (Cupramine)
for 4 weeks prior to introducing them on the new tank. The fish have been on the quarantine tank for 1 week without copper and the water parameters were unchanged from the one mentioned above.
<Generally not the best of practices. I can understand your rationale for  doing so, but copper is very stressful on fish.>
As I went to buy Cupramine I saw a beautiful powder brown tang ~ 3" and since I was going to quarantine the old fish I decided to go ahead and buy it. It is a good specimen, healthy, actively swimming and feeding well. Here I should have done more research since it turned out to be A. Nigricans and not A. Japonicus and I now know the difference in adaptability to a captive environment between the two species.
<You are in for a challenge.>
I decided to give the new fish some time to adapt prior to adding copper.
For 3 days all was well. The new tang had a good color, was swimming very actively, eating well flake food from my hands. It had a few light turf war with the yellow tang but after about 1 day they stopped bothering each other. About 12h after introduction in the QT, the new tang showed 1 or 2 small white spots, I was not sure if it was ich or just some mucus. Those went away the 3 day. As said everything was well so thinking it was ich on day 5 I decided to go with the original plan and start copper.
<At least now there is a rationale for doing so.>
I added Cupramine as per manufacture instruction and I tested a level at 0.3 ppm. The following day all 3 fish were acting stressed. The new tang coloration faded and was looking more stressed than the other fish. I tested the water and I had a spike in ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Ammonia was at 0.5 ppm, nitrite at 0.5 ppm and nitrate at 10 ppm.
<Killed the biological filter.>
I went ahead and did a 50% water change with aged SW I prepared few days prior just in case.
<Excellent planning ahead on your part.>
The following day I still had some ammonia (0.2) much less nitrite (0.1) and almost no copper. The older fish seem to have recovered to their normal. The PB tang is regaining its coloration, is swimming more actively and runs to feed and eat really well whereas barely feed the previous day.
<An encouraging sign..
I did another 30% water change today and things are looking better.
<Good.>
I believe the copper has killed the nitrifying bacteria and this is the reason for the spikes in ammonia, NO2 and NO3.
<You are correct.>
The question is how do I proceed from here? I was planning to give the fish some time to recover from this insult.
<You have another, more expensive, but less stressful option - quinine>
Do water changes to keep water condition as pristine as I can. I am concerned though that as I re dose copper the situation is going to deteriorate again. I am also not sure if the PBT is also particularly sensitive to copper.
<No more than other tangs, but add copper on top of stress.>
I really would like to go through the planned copper treatment. I do not want to risk bringing ich to the new tank.
<Again, this is an opportunity to use quinine. You can read about its application here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm There is also a link to an online retailer that sells it. You want Quinine Sulfate.>
Sorry for the long post, I would really appreciate some help here.
<Since you now have ich, you do have to treat. I am a big fan of Quinine - It is more expensive, but it is much less stressful than copper.>
PS. One more question about the old live rocks. They are beautiful rocks and I would like to be able to use them on the new set-up, however since the old rocks were once covered with Cyano and hair algae, I am afraid to bring those scourges to the new tank. Now they are looking clean. Is there a way to "de contaminate" them so that they can be reused?
<Quinine works well here as well, will kill Cyano.>.
Thanks Again
<My pleasure. I would like to take a moment and commend you on your practices. Everything you have done thus far has been 'by the book'>
Claudio
<MikeV>

Re: Copper and quarantine tank: A textbook opportunity to use Quinine. 8/25/2009
<Hi Caludio>
Thank You Mike for the answer.
<My pleasure.>
I bought Quinine Sulfate and I'll try it as soon as it arrives.
<Excellent, I think you will be happy with the results.>
In the meantime hopefully the fish will fully recover and the biological filter will get reestablished.
<It will - you can add a good piece of live rock to the system to help it along.>
I read the FAQ on quinine sulfate and there are different recommended regimens.
<Yes.>
The prevalent one seems to be 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons, repeat in 3 days with a 25% water change in the interim, repeat 3 times (9 day treatment) then keep the fish in quarantine for the remaining time to 4 weeks. While treating, no skimmer, no carbon, only ambient light. Is this the plan you recommend or do you suggest anything different?
<This is the method that has met with the most success and the one I would use.>
Thanks
<As always, my pleasure. Do write back and let us know how it all works out. We are really trying to increase our 'library' on quinine.>
Claudio
<MikeV>

disease help... Retail, whlse, competence    7/23/09
Hello
<Salud>
I brought in an Asfur angel, an Imperator, two Copperbanded Butterfly, part of the initial order for our new store from one of the "top" LA wholesalers.
<... Okay...>
They were put into 3 separate 30 gallon quarantine systems. Within 48 hours the two angels and one copper developed Lymphocystis. The Imperator additionally showed what I thought at the time was several spots of Crypto in the same pectoral fin displaying the Lymphocystis.
One butterfly also showed a few spots, as well as the Asfur. Everybody was given copper (Cupramine following manufactures dosage level checked daily with Salifert kit) A week later, no response to copper as far as the spots,
<So... what had you learned?>
and I noticed that after two weeks all the original spots are intact. None seem to rupture. Now yesterday The second butterfly literally from one hour to the next showed a raised patch of scales and heavy breathing.
<Copper poisoning, plus stress, equals...?>
The patch began to show redness and I moved him to a smaller hospital tank with copper and added Kanamycin sulfate, a couple of hours later he was gone. The other fish all behave normally and eat well but with no improvement in the spots. I do not have a microspore available right now or I would sample to
the spots to confirm crypto. Is it possible that it is not crypto? Should I try quinine sulfate?
<Not at all likely Cryptocaryon... and why would you use a Quinine?>
Any Ideas?
<All sorts>
I have been miserable with the fish I have received. Until recently I only used trans shippers and have always been aggressive with treating diseases with tremendous success. Because it is a new store we felt
we could get a more complete cross section of fish by using a good wholesaler and we did our research,
<Mmm, not obvious from this email... I would NOT treat large angels or Chelmons with chelated copper... I WOULD have dipped/bathed all new/incoming fishes... per the protocols listed on WWM>
but now the number of losses and the difficulty in treatment is very upsetting. I even confronted them with
the fact that at least one fish was shipped with visible parasites. No actual response.
<Let's not banter about here. Please name the companies involved>
Any help will certainly be appreciated. We take the survival of the fish very seriously, and although we are a new store, I have been doing aquariums including reefs since the mid 80.s
Thanks
Gabriel
<Gabe... do state whether you'd like your business, the wholesaler not to be named. Bob Fenner>

Re: disease help... SW, crypt f'?   7/24/09
Hi Bob
Thank you for replying, as for the store we are aquarium encounters, In New York. The fish are from SDC, they are certainly great people and I know Eric is an especially nice guy and very knowledgeable but I also know they are huge and things can get past. I don't want to get into any problems with them but I need to know what to do in the future as far as disease, Quarantine etc. As far as fresh water bath/dip I always do that for every fish these included.
<My input re SOP for fish and invert. groups is posted, has occurred in periodicals and books for decades>
As far as the quinine sulfate that was the suggestion of national Fish Pharmacy. The truth is I had run into crypto like diseases years ago that did not respond to Cu and I was very successful with Quinacrine hydrochloride (ala Dr. Edward Kingsford).
<Yowzah! We do go back a fair piece. I am also a huge fan of Quinine compounds for protozoan complaints>
Right now this whole project (opening the store) has drained me physically and mentally, and Oh yeah monetarily.
<I do understand this... Steady on>
I Have three partners who financed most of it, but I did everything from scratch myself from woodworking to acrylic and all design, engineering you name it. We had several delays and have had to by several month rent without opening , more pressure. We are trying to open within a week and everyone who has come in has loved it. It looks more like a small public aquarium than a typical fish store. I have right now about 120 aquariums running with close to half salt water, we also have a hands on science discovery center which we are finishing up.
<Nice>
I am embarrassed right now to admit that my background is in marine science and my independent research during my undergraduate work was in marine fish parasitology and I teach college Bio.
<... why embarrassed?>
I expected the answers you gave me, so if I know what I am doing, why am I having all these problems and making stupid mistakes?
<Really... does happen>
Maybe I am just plain exhausted from 10 -14 hour days in the store while keeping up with my "real job" I am also under tremendous pressure from my partners and I don't have the luxury of being scientific about things with them breathing on me.
My microscope should be here shortly as well as my other lab stuff and I hope to get back on track.
Why am I telling you this?
<Because we are human... is there more?>
I respect your opinion and advice, and I have no one to vent to, that knows a drop about what I am doing or going through.
Thank you for your time. I let you know what happens with the fish, I hope to have the opportunity to meet you.
Gabriel
<We shall meet. BobF>

Re: disease help, SW, comm., Protozoan  7/26/2009
Hello
I have my lab equipment, the fish I first wrote you about definitely have crypto, as well as some other yet unidentified ecto parasite embed in the fins. Slightly larger cysts slightly more translucent than crypto.
In the meanwhile, three more butterfly fish as well as a lemon peel a chevron tang and an arc eyed hawk all have definite crypto. Now that I a whole central system infected, what do you recommend, according to
national fish pharm.
I should treat the whole system with quinine sulfate,
<This or Quinacrine Hydrochloride would be my choice>
I do not want to use any copper if possible, and in truth the copper as I wrote earlier did not work as yet, except to kill the Copperbanded butterfly.
Please any help is greatly appreciated, I refuse to become one of the stores hose goal is to sell fish quick before they die, or just make them someone else's problem
Gabriel
<Do try either Quinine cpd. Gabriel... System-wide... Do you have Ed Noga's book handy? BobF>