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FAQs on Quinine Compounds Use in Aquariums

Related Articles: Use of Biological Cleaners, Aquatic Surgery, The Three Sets of Factors That Determine Livestock Health/Disease

Related FAQs: Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3 Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelmintics/Vermifuges/Dewormers, Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce, other shams...), Malachite Green, Mercury Compounds/Topicals, Methylene Blue, Metronidazole, Sulfas, Treating Disease, Treatment Tanks, Medications/Treatments II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Garlic UseAntibiotic UseMarine Disease 1, Puffer Disease

Chloroquine phosphate
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com
Alternatively, you may have success securing CP through a veterinary or medical doctor.

Greenex
: Malachite Green & Quinine HCL (Aquatronics)

Quinine Sulfate:
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

Fin damage from quinine sulfate, stress, or secondary bacterial infection? – 3/14/10
Greetings to Bob and the Crew at WWM,
<Jamie>
Hope that all is going well with you.
<Fair>
I am currently using quinine sulfate on my Powder Blue Tang, Atlantic Blue Tang, and Kole Tang for C. irritans that has been haunting them since November last year. I am in the middle of the second treatment as the ich returned several days after the first treatment due to bad methodology on my part. Everyone is clear of ich spots and behaviors have been normal with activity and eating habits. My question concerns my Kole Tang, who did not tolerate the quinine as well as the others. With the initial treatment, his skin became blotchy and his pectoral fins started to "disintegrate" but then his skin improved within three days of finishing the 7 day treatment and daily water changes. I am in day 4 of the second treatment, he did not have the blotchy skin reaction as he did the first round, and his pectoral fins are not getting worse but have been like this (in the pictures) for 5 days now. I am wondering if this is a secondary bacterial infection or is it just taking the fins longer to heal?
<Looks to me to be more of damage from exposure to simple "poor water quality". Should/will heal in time w/ improved conditions>
Interesting observation to share on quinine sulfate and peppermint shrimp.
Peppermint shrimp tolerated the quinine sulfate well, until he molted. He died shortly after that.
Another interesting point I learned from Dr. Aukes is that quinine sulfate is an alkaloid
<And the sulfate radical can lower pH substantially...>
and the fishes sense this through their lateral lines. They don't like it and literally tries to swim away from it when I add it to the water. I also lost a couple of fish because they jumped out of the tank during treatment, so I would recommend that anyone treating their fishes with quinine to cover their tanks tightly. The fish also show other stress behaviors by eating less, being more irritable or grumpy, and showing stress coloration (my juvenile Atlantic Blue is normally yellow when he is happy and brown when he is mad, he is consistently darker with quinine treatment, but changes back to yellow when treatment ends.) The quinine also seem to decrease the fishes' slime coat which makes the scratch marks clearer if the fish has done a lot of flashing.
I hope the lessons I have learned will help others in the future.
Thank you,
Jamie Barclay
<Me too. Thank you for this valuable input/sharing. BobF>

Re: Fin damage from quinine sulfate, stress, or secondary bacterial infection? 3/15/10
Bob, thanks so much!
I hope that in a few weeks I can share good news that we are finally finished with the ich.
For all my future acquisitions: Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine!
Take care!
Jamie
<Thanks! BobF>

A few clarifications, CP use, much more re FIOWLR set up, op.   3/13/10
Hi Bob and Crew and to whomever replying to this mail.
<Hi Blesson, howsit?>
Thanks to Bob's precious advice I am able to successfully keep Cleaner shrimp in my tank. But instead of adjusting ph using vinegar or a weak acid to drip acclimate the specimens and then to acclimate them to the tank; I used a product called Ammo lock to detoxify the accumulated metabolic waste products. Worked out great and thanks a ton Bob.
Well I also found the Yellow Tang a bigger good home and he looks really happy. And your treatment protocol for the Crypt and Amyloodinium using CP worked wonders !
<Ah, good. I will accrue your comments here in that FAQ f'>
The survivors being the Tang, a Bicolour Blenny, Chromis and a Goby would thank you if they could. Well I had to shift my dorm and hence did an overhaul of the tank. Removed the coarse crushed coral gravel and added a bed of LS about one to two inches. New occupants include 2 True Perculas, 1 Red Fire Goby, 1 Electric Blue Hermit,1 cleaner shrimp and 2 unidentified snails which you will have to help me ID later when I can get hold of a decent snap, along with the old Blenny, Chromis and the Goby. Tank has been up and running for over two months now. I couldn't QT the new guys on arrival as my QT tank broke in a freak accident ! I really couldn't help it :( Anyways the clowns were tank raised and look very healthy and have already noticed a slight growth spurt in one. They 're about an inch and a half in length. My first question is ... Can an infection appear after two months of no symptoms ?
<Yes>
I have plans for a lot of corals. Is my tank too crowded ?
<What is the volume, shape?>
My Alk is 7dkh. Is tat alright cos the test kit manual says 8-12dkh is the normal level.
<Is likely fine; a bit low... but unless you have more sensitive biomineralising life, no worries>
According to my judgment of colour from the reagent test kit from API Phosphates are around 0.5. Is that a bit too high ?
<Yes...>
How do I get it to zero other than water changes and feeding less ?
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/phosphatemar.htm
and the linked files above>
Nitrates are around 5-10. I run a decently working Skimmer. I am using Poly Filter and Carbon, also Denitrator chips or granules from SeaChem in my Canister filter, the bottom trays of the canister hold Ceramic rings and Bio-media for Bacterial colonisation. No measurable Ammonia or Nitrites.
Calcium is at 440 ppm. I dont test for Magnesium but do dose it in small quantities.
<My usual urging/admonition here to not "use" anything w/o testing for it... You MUST test for [Mg] if you're adjusting it>
Got a slight Diatom problem.
Should I remove the filter floss from the canister ?
<Maybe. I/'d use summat like Eheim's "Flocken" (one time purchase, polyethylene product) myself>
My thoughts were this would trap detritus and cause problems with the nitrate.
<Evidently not too much eh?>
Making plans for a DIY Sump and an overflow system to be added soon. Your advice is highly appreciated !
<And is posted>
Have been reading the daily FAQs for the past two months and frankly I am kind of hooked on to it and the site ! Thanks you so much ! :)
Blesson from Bangalore, India.
p.s. Bob might remember me as the medical student with fish problems ...
<Ah yes. Cheers, Bob Fenner> 

Re: Decision re: Achilles Tang transition, CP sourcing in Canada   3/11/10
Hi again Simon, can you tell me where I can get this med in Canada, my lfs has no idea what I am talking about when I asked for Chloroquine Phosphate, thanks for your help.
Tracey
<Pardon my "cutting in" here Tracey. As Simon is in the U.K. (and I'm a yank), I'll point you to the locations listed on WWM. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Alternatively, you may have success securing CP through a veterinary or medical doctor.
Bob Fenner>

Re: Now an angel... Quinine, SW parasitic dis. (?) of what sort... Confusing oneself w/ opinions from differing sources   3/7/2010
So I wanted to tell the rest of the story.
<Please do>
After you said I needed to raise salinity and use quinine (and this was after about 3.5 days of treatment with prozipro and lowering salinity to 1.011) I added carbon, turned on the UV and slowly started raising the salinity. I called National Fish Pharmacy to ask if I could use the Cryptopro in lower salinity as I did not want to raise it quickly. In talking with Brian he convinced me that I needed to treat again for flukes -- that it was not ich. This was based on the data that the fish was hiding, not eating well, and breathing hard.
<? These can be/are symptoms of Cryptocaryoniasis... and can be symptomatic of trematode infestations>
So I treated again for flukes instead of ich and I very slowly raised the salinity according to your instructions. It went from 1.011 to 1.015 in about a week. Well the ich returned and the fish was looking terrible. I have treated a fish for flukes before and the fish usually looks better very quickly and this was after another 4.5 days on prozipro.
<Prazi-Pro... as in the product containing Praziquantel... for worms...>
But he was looking terrible so I started the process to get the prozipro out again but it takes 48 hours and the fish died before the 48 hours was up.
Now I still had the goby and he was showing symptoms so after the 48 hours of small water changes and carbon, (Brian said not to use UV as it sucks oxygen out of the water
<... No... generates higher DO... even Ozone/O3... nonsense>
and he also said to leave the salinity alone so I did) I treated with quinine. Last night was the 7th night of treating with the quinine and the goby is dying this morning.
<...>
Originally I did not write to you for advice on how to treat ich. I wrote -- with all of the details because I was worried it was something else. I gave the fish a freshwater dip at one point to check and see if it was velvet but there was no cloudiness in the water and there was no evidence of velvet when they died. As I mentioned several times I was confused because nothing seemed to be effective. The only symptoms I could see were hiding, not eating, redness in the gills, a strange texture on the gills (not fluke shapes) and difficulty breathing.
<... need a scope...>
Brian still insists that it was flukes and that I did not treat it long enough or early enough. And that the ich was a secondary infection. If this is so then I should have stayed with the hypo and prozipro. I don't know what I have learned from this except that I want to buy quarantined fish from now on.
Sherri
<Thank you for this input Sherri... Other than prophylactic measures like dips/baths and quarantine, it may be worth your while to invest in an inexpensive microscope (see my input re on WWM) and a stock reference work on fish disease ID and treatment (see re Ed Noga...). Bob Fenner>

Re: Treatment Resistant Cryptocaryon irritans   2/28/10
Greetings Bob and crew at WWM.
After reading your e-mail and contacting Dr. Aukes from National Fish Pharmacy. I re-thought my past treatment with quinine sulfate and more recently with formalin and realized that I am the reason neither medications worked. This led me to acknowledge the need to share my experience so that others may learn from my mistakes.
<Ah good>
Going back several months ago, after the quinine sulfate did not APPEAR to work in treating the C. irritans infection brought by the Achilles tang.
There were actually three issues at the time that somehow, I lumped into one which was the thought that quinine did not work. In reality there were three very separate issues which led to my failure and poor decision making, not
to mention illogical thinking were:
1) The Achilles was not eating in the quarantine and the only fish showing ich. No good nutrition intake leading to the poor immunity of the fish to begin with.
2) By the 8th week for all my fishes to be in a 55 gallon not previously cycled hospital tank, they were starting to show a lot of stress: flame angel exhibited darkening of facial markings like a red mustache, my wrasses hovering near the surface and loosing their appetite and looking like a film was covering their usually brilliant colors. Stress due to daily fluctuation of ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, and not to mention the daily 20+ gallon water changes. Stress leading to poor immunity.
3) I was pressured for time as I was going on holiday for two and a half weeks. My stress, causing me behave more erratically and making bad decisions. Loosing patience and losing sight of what exactly what I was supposed to be doing.
Now, more recently with all my 37 mL every 48 hours dosing of formalin - this one is easy. Mr. Fenner made several comments that my formalin is somehow being absorbed or being taken out of solution. You must have a
magic ball Mr. Fenner! I stupidly left my protein skimmer ON! I was cleaning it every other day and still not recognizing I should have turned it off.
That was why I was not killing ANYTHING!
So on Wednesday night (three nights ago) I performed a 40 gallon water change and dosed my display tank with six and a half teaspoon of quinine sulfate which is 1/4 tsp per 10 gallon. I've read on WWM some conflicting
information on whether quinine will be absorbed or bound by substrate. Dr. Aukes from NFP said NO.
<To some degree he is wrong, materials associated w/ substrate... do so...>
I've turned off my UV sterilizer and my protein skimmer and I will do as told by Dr. Aukes - Treat once and leave in for 7 days. No parameter testing, water condition will be told by fish behavior.
I did note to Dr. Aukes that all my fishes' appetite have decreased since starting treatment and that they are seem more shy and even a little grumpy.
He advised that this is often observed and will continue as they are in treatment.
<We are in agreement here>
I also asked if I need to re dose every seven days for a total of 28 days for the life cycle of C. irritans and he said no - just one treatment.
<And here>
Three days into quinine sulfate treatment - my Powder blue and Kole tang are finally showing a dramatic decrease in bumps and spots. This is the first time in MONTHS that they are actually looking improved. I know I'm not out
of the woods yet, but I will keep my fingers crossed and keep following the advise of those wiser and more experienced.
Thank you Bob, for putting up with my endless e-mails and also to have the patience to point things out to me, even if I miss the "point" several times in a row.
<Clarity is pleasurable. I am satisfied that you have worked out your situation>
I hope to share good news with you in a few weeks...before I go to the Great Barrier Reef.
Thank YOU!
Jamie
<And you. BobF>

Re: Treatment Resistant Cryptocaryon irritans... Using Quinine... IN trtmt. sys., NOT DTs   3/1/10
Hello Bob,
<Jamie>
I hope you had a wonderful weekend!
<Asi asi>
As I read and re-read our correspondence, I remembered a question that I had forgotten to ask earlier.
Why is it that I only have to treat with quinine sulfate once in my display tank for eradication of C. irritans?
From everything I've read regarding when ich is susceptible to medication is during it's free swimming theront phase.
<Only w/ metals, dyes...>
From my observation, quinine sulfate also appears to work by being absorbed into the blood stream of fishes and then the attached C. irritans take the quinine in while feeding on the fish which causes them to die - that is why I observed seeing the black spots on my fishes where the ich was attached 2-3 days after I start quinine treatment. These black spots are not observed on my fishes without quinine treatment.
It seems that as new theronts excyst from my substrate I would need to make sure that the quinine is still present in the water and also in the fishes?
<Is so to a degree... Again, hence the S.O.P. of treating in a separate tank w/ no substrate, live rock... and allowing the infested system to go fallow>
So how would that be if after a total of seven days I put carbon in therefore 24 hours then start my UV sterilizer and my protein skimmer?
<Not my advice, or suggested method of treatment. Again, this is posted over and over on WWM. I suspect you have Brian and I and WWM's advice mixed up here. Again, I would NOT treat in main/display tanks. BobF>
Thanks in advance!
Jamie 

Re: Question Regarding Ich and Brooklynella – 03/20/10
Bob,
<Pam>
I wanted to give you an update on the treatment of ICH on my Blue Tang in my display tank due to being out of town and not able to monitor the Treatment tank while I was gone. I administered the QS on Saturday afternoon (after removing carbon, and turning off UV, Skimmer, and lights), by Sunday there was an incredible reduction in the number of spots on the tang. I left Monday and returned late last night. My husband said the fish ate all week. The tang looks PERFECT, the spots are gone, his vibrant color has returned, and his appetite has not suffered at all. The goby has seemed a little less active, but I'm guessing the meds and lack of light might have something to do with that. I turned the lights on today before I fed and he was happily chasing down food as well. The tang has changed his behavior some in that he's now hanging out by the water return pipe, not in the flow, just hanging out behind the pipe. He does go back to the rocks to sleep during the night. He's active and swims a lot, I just hadn't seen him hang out up by the pipe prior to the ICH. He's not flashing or rubbing on anything anymore.
A couple of practical questions..
1) I'm planning to do a water change tomorrow. (1 week post addition of QS) Do I need to do a second week of treatment?
<No>
2) I use a Tidepool sump and my carbon is in a carbon pillow. I'd put a new one in right before removing it for treatment. I've had it soaking in freshwater during treatment. Is it safe to put it back in the tank, or could it be infested with ich, and should I just buy a new one?
<It could be infested. I'd replace it>
3) How long should I wait before returning the snails and shrimp? Is running carbon and skimmer enough or should I buy one of the other types of purifying filters first?
<A week or so after the chemical filtrant addition>
Thanks so much for the help, I'm so relieved that my Tang looks so amazing again. I hope I'm able to provide him a long and healthy life.
Thanks, Pam Speck
<Thank you for your input, update. BobF>

26/02/10 Stumped.... Forcipiger hlth., troubleshooting
Hi everyone.
<Hi Jay>
I am quite confused about medicating a Long nose Butterfly.
<Ok>
I recently treated my long nose with Quinine Sulfate for Ich and after about three weeks it's finally gone.
<In Quarantine? Or in-tank? If you did this in tank, then the Crypt will not be gone>
From a previous email one of the representatives from WWM recommended that I treat with a product called PraziPro because my Butterfly was flashing (he said, based on what I told him, he probably has gill flukes).
<Ok>
I started treating with the Prazi and ever since then my BF has increased rapid gill movement and twitches a lot.
<Mmmm>
If in fact he did have flukes, I thought the Prazi was supposed to help kill them.....why are they getting worse?
<Are they flukes? If you remove the fish and freshwater dip him, you might see one or both of two things that would give you a better idea: If he stops flashing afterwards, then it is probably flukes. If you can see specks on the base of the dip container (usually white, so a dark dip container might be prudent), then they also could be flukes. Removal of these and placed under a cheap microscope will confirm. If neither of these happen, then it is probably not flukes>.
He has been clear of spots for over two weeks
<Could have just cycled off... the fish may still be infested with Crypt.. in the gills, thus the heavy breathing & flashing>
and I proceeded with the full treatment recommended for QS. Please help!
<Another possibility here... medication in the water can/ does irritate fishes, to the point where they exhibit 'flashing' behaviour. You might find that with the removal of the medication and improved water quality this will ease off>.
Thank you folks
<No problem, Simon>

BF dis., Quinine use f' 2/23/2010
Hey Crew.....
I value you each and every one of your opinions but I would like Bob's advice on this one if at all possible. I just recently upgraded from a 10g QT to a 20g long QT. I have a small 2.5 inch Heniochus and a 3" Raccoon
(Chaetodon Lunula).
<I do want to (re)state for browsers, that I'd look for larger (but not too large) specimens of Chaetodontids to start>
I have treated my Heni for ten days with Quinine Sulfate. Then added the Raccoon after the full ten day treatment and a few additional days (for a total of about two weeks later). Bodies and fins are clear of spots and there are no visible symptoms of a parasite (rapid breathing, flashing, etc.). My concern here is that my Heniochus has a very slight cloudy glaze over his eyes and fins.
<Likely "just stress" from the treatment... i.e., not parasitic>
I do want to say that even when he had velvet from the start his fins were never cloudy like this. After two weeks of being treated with QS he has developed this (without any spots or symptoms). Is this normal?
<Yes>
Shall I treat with something else? Or will this go away eventually?
<No and yes>
I have called National Fish Pharm. and when I spoke with the Doctor, he said it could be from the treatment of QS.
<Yes; this is so>
There isn't much info regarding this med in your forums or at all on the WWW. Bob, what do you think, I would like your opinion?
Thanks so much
<Welcome. BobF>

re: Hey Crew..... BF exp. Quinine   2/24/10
Thanks a lot for the speedy reply and you are indeed the only one to give me a solid answer on this subject.
Thanks again
<Welcome. BobF>

Treating main tank with quinine sulfate(Crypto Pro) Quinine Treatment 2/16/2010
How's it going Mike? Crew?
<Hi Aaron.>
Well I have taken Mike's advice and have started quinine treatment. (Crypto Pro)
<Excellent!>
I have treated in the display. Turned off uv, skimmer and removed all chemical filtration. I do still have substrate in my tank. Crushed coral.
<Should be fine.>
I am confused on how to properly dose. The bottle says to treat daily with 25% water changes. I contacted NationalFishpharm and Dr. Aukes recommended treating once and leaving for 5-7 days.
<I agree with the doctor.>
Changing 25% every day seems quite expensive as far as salt is concerned.
<I would agree.>
I am currently laid off until spring and am lucky I was able to order the Crypto Pro in the first place. Would you think treating once and leaving for a week will eradicate the ich?
<Personally, with an infestation that was as strong as yours, I would do two courses of treatment, of 5 to 7 days with a 25% water change after each.>
I was worried about substrate adsorbing the quinine?
<No worries there, once the treatment is finished, just turn the filtration on and start running carbon.>
I am sure this is a great medication it's just the instructions are sketchy and in my personal opinion NationalFishPharm's support is not the greatest.
<Sorry to hear that. This is actually the first I've heard that.>
<MikeV>

Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress  2/10/10
Hi there,
<Hello>
I started treating my main tank with Quinine Sulphate for ich last night.
(my QT broke while setting it up) Per the instructions I treated with 1/4th teaspoon.
My plan is to do the 9 day treatment with water changes every 3rd day before the new dose. My problem is, though I removed all snails to a bucket with an aerator there were more than a few Bristle worms in the tank I
could not get. Actually, I didn't realize I had so many.
Fish in tank include- Raccoon B/F, True Perc, Blue Tang, juvenile Mappa Puffer
<Are you treating the fishes in the main, display tank? Not advised>
I noticed one of my fish, the Raccoon B/F looking a tad stressed. I also haven't been able to find my Puffer so I tested the water.
Ph 7.9
Nitrate 32
Ammonia was at least 50 on the color meter however I'm not very good with color cards so its plus or minus.
<Mmm, I suspect you've missed the decimal point here... likely 0.50 ppm... half a part per million>
So my question is... I am only on day one or will be at 2 am. I have water made up, should I go ahead and do a water change now?
<... yes. And what otherwise are you doing to limit ammonia?>
If so do I re dose or do I wait the 3 day time period to re treat?
<Need to maintain a physiological dose... re-treat per the amount/percentage of water changed out>
I tried calling National Fish Pharm but they were closed by the time I got home.
<Ahh! They know their "stuff" as well>
Sabrina Roschbach
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the first tray: Quarantine
BobF>
Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress  2/10/10
Hi again,
I am treating my main tank.
My QT broke while being set up.
<Oh yes... I do recall your stating thus>
I know its not a well liked idea, however my Puffer has had ich for 2 weeks now and I felt waiting to buy another tank, setting it up, and so on would not be in her best interest.
<I do agree>
So I placed all snails and hermit crabs in one of my cleaned salt buckets with an aerator and began treatment. Also, there is no guess work in the math because the website gives directions for treating main tanks with live rock and sand. I called National Fish Pharm this morning before I received your reply.
<I see>
The woman I spoke with said that any ammonia testing would be false readings. That once you start using Quinine Sulphate none of your tests will be accurate.
<Really? With all types of reagents? Might I ask for this person/woman's name? I'd like to contact her re the underlying science here. There are false-negatives with some "water conditioners" and some colorimetric assay
chemicals... but I am unfamiliar with any that are affected with Quinines>
She said the only way to know that there may be a problem is if the fish are OBVIOUSLY stressed i.e. breathing fast, going to the surface to breath and so on. Because my fish aren't doing this she advised me to not do anything and continue following the directions. (The Raccoon B/F is actually doing better now, though I'm not sure why)
Now when I started the treatment all of my levels were good
Ph 8
Nitrate 10
Ammonia 0
She also said I could return my snails and hermits to the main tank once I had ran the filtration system for 2 days doing a large water change both days.
<Mmm... a "trade off" between waiting long enough for removal of the compound, and the likelihood of damage from improper (waiting) environment for sure>
Do you agree with both of her assessments?
<I do not have sufficient confidence in my understanding to have an opinion here>
Oh and as a side note and added unexpected yet welcomed benefit... My Aiptasia problem is LONG GONE!!! YAY! lol
<Ah, good!>
Also I wanted to thank you for all of you frank and helpful advice.
<Certainly welcome>
You don't baby people; you don't let them (me included) get away with lazy research and sloppy husbandry and though it can be hard to take, because of this expectation I believe it has helped make me a better aquarist.
<Outstanding.>
Sabrina Roschbach
<And I thank you for your ongoing patience and sharing. BobF>

Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress, Effect on Ammonia testing  - 2/10/10
The woman I spoke with was Pat. She said that she or Dr. Brian Aukes can answer any and all questions re the false readings though Dr. Brian Aukes would be better at answering your questions. I don't know if ALL tests will
be effected however she did specifically say ammonia tests.
<Thank you for this follow up>
I will be picking up a new QT, even if its just a 10$ Wal-mart aquarium, in the next day or two. I don't believe keeping the snails and crabs in a bucket for close to two weeks would be the best way to go here.
<Agreed>
I am very interested in the science behind the reagents as well and would very much like to know more. If you could reply letting me know what you find I would greatly appreciate it. If you cant or don't remember (y'all are
very busy over there) I will just check back re Quinine.
<I will do so>
I would very much like to know if I should do the water change or not. I am torn between the possibility of altering the treatments to an ineffective state and lowering the ammonia because though they aren't looking stressed
it's just not a healthy way for them to live.
<Mmm, the "bio-assay" of livestock behavior is most useful/indicative here, but, when in doubt, I would change some water out>
Thank you again
Sabrina Roschbach
<And you, BobF>
nationalfishpharm@yahoo.com
Brian, re a query, statements on WWM - 2/10/10

Would you please point me to the stoichiometry, other indication of co-reaction in water quality/Ammonia tests producing false negatives with Quinine? Please see the corr. below re.
Bob Fenner, WetWebMedia

Brian, re a query, statements on WWM... Quinine interference w/ Ammonia tests
Would you please point me to the stoichiometry, other indication of co-reaction in water quality/Ammonia tests producing false negatives with Quinine? Please see the corr. below re.
Bob Fenner, WetWebMedia
Subject: RE: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress
The woman I spoke with was Pat. She said that she or Dr. Brian Aukes can answer any and all questions re the false readings though Dr. Brian Aukes would be better at answering your questions. I don't know if ALL tests will
be effected however she did specifically say ammonia tests.
<Thank you for this follow up>
I will be picking up a new QT, even if its just a 10$ Wal-mart aquarium, in the next day or two. I don't believe keeping the snails and crabs in a bucket for close to two weeks would be the best way to go here.
<Agreed>
I am very interested in the science behind the reagents as well and would very much like to know more. If you could reply letting me know what you find I would greatly appreciate it. If you cant or don't remember (yall are
very busy over there) I will just check back re Quinine.
<I will do so>
I would very much like to know if I should do the water change or not. I am torn between the possibility of altering the treatments to an ineffective state and lowering the ammonia because though they aren't looking stressed it's just not a healthy way for them to live.
<Mmm, the "bio-assay" of livestock behavior is most useful/indicative here, but, when in doubt, I would change some water out>
Thank you again
Sabrina Roschbach
<And you, BobF>
Re: Again: Brian, re a query, statements on WWM 2/21/10
Many medications and water treatments will throw off water testing.
Especially these low dollar reagent test kits. Many times these reagents are expired and you are getting false test results right out of the box.
You must use common sense when keeping tropical fish. Note behavior, feeding habits etc. You cannot rely on a low dollar test kit for accurate results.
If the fish are hanging at the top of the tank and gasping for air... I would say that you have high ammonia or nitrites and that a water change should be done immediately.
If your test kit is giving you a false reading (which can happen frequently), and it shows high ammonia levels: Look at the fish. Are they swimming around just fine? This is where the common sense part kicks in.
Best regards,
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhD
c/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals
<Okay... not the specifics to the question I was looking for, but sound advice in general. Thank you, Bob Fenner>

Re: Again: Brian, re a query, statements on WWM, Quinine/s + NH3 tests  – 02/22/10
Hi Bob,
If I were to explain it in stoichiometry as you requested... nobody would understand it.
<Most, no>
You must explain things as a hobbyist would understand it and not get so technical. Being that Quinine is an Alkaloid, this would get very confusing.
Again: Most medications and water treatments will throw your tests off.
Best regards,
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhDc/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals
<Am familiar w/ some interactions with Nessler's and PVP... but not Quinines; again thank you for your efforts. BobF>

Re: statements on WWM, Quinine/s + NH3 tests – 02/22/10  2/24/10
Bob,
<Simon>
Just to add my personal experience with ammonia (salicylate) & nitrite tests and Chloroquine Phosphate. I have been using the API tests for both with this medication for some time now (on several occasions) and have found no
unusual results.
<Ahh, I have/had found no such notes by others either...>
Indeed, results have been as I would expect in a QT tank with no med, i.e. a modest increase seen in both as the tank matures, along with increases in ammonia after feeding, and decreases in both with water changes, and as the filter matures.
Simon
<Thank you for this. BobF>

Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress – 02/12/10
Hi Bob/Crew,
<Sabrina>
So its 2:30 AM and am still up because ALL of my fish in my main tank were freaking out. Just a recap, I started treating my main tank with Quinine Sulphate 3 days ago, because my QT broke during set up and my fish have had ich for a while. (2 weeks plus by now) I did a 25% water change yesterday (even though it was early) because ammonia was high +/- .50.
<Good move>
I tested the water this evening because of fish stress, and ammonia was at the 4 mark at least!!!! There was no way I could do a large enough water change to make a dent. However, earlier today I went out and got 2 smallish QT's THANK GOD!!! I had just enough salt water made up to move the fish to the two tanks
<Good>
I guess I had A LOT more die off of bristle worms than I thought. I have followed the directions to the T. I had even stopped feeding them because of the risk of ammonia spikes. (this was done per National Fish Pharm).
<I agree>
My poor poor little Raccoon B/F was so very stressed that parts of him had turned black and white in mixed places. He basically looked like he had been in a fist fight and lost.
<"Ammonia burn">
My poor fish are all just a mess. My puffer who is normally dark bodied with whitish spots is now almost a burnt orange brown... I believe she's secreting slime due to the stress of it all, though she's eating so that's a plus. (fed her just after I moved her to the new QT.)
Mostly this is just a rant type thing because man oh man was I lax on my QT habits before, but now... I will never be again!! I just want people to know, If you LOVE your fish the way I love mine quarantine them!!! Use fw dips!!! Do it all!!!
<Thank you for this>
Also I wanted people to know that treating the main tank with this isn't like just adding purple up or something. This is a BIG pain in the behind. When I had read the FAQ portion on your site people would say they are treating with Quinine and not give any indication of a problem. Please people be WARNED!!! ALL of my bristle worms are dead. The massive die off caused, I believe, the TOXIC over load of ammonia in the tank and almost killed all of my fish. I still have no idea if they will recover. Other than the Puffer the only one eating is the Raccoon. Just be SMART.
<And this>
I guess I do have a question or two.
My puffer was the only fish showing signs of ich though I believed, and still do, that my Skunk Cleaner Shrimp may have been the main reason the others didn't show signs of the plague, as they made regular visits to Mr. Clean.
Any way, my question is, my Puffer was treated for 3 days and still has white spots on her. Shouldn't they have fallen off by now? Most people report them falling off around day 2 or 3.
<More may be "climbing back on" (do you have a good grasp of the causative agents life cycle here?), or the spots could be "just mucus" from skin irritation...>
Also, now that my Puffer is in the QT but stressed to hell and back how should I proceed? Should I continue with the treatment or should I stop the treatment and give her a week or so to recoup?
<I would continue w/ the treatment. Too likely that co-reactions in your main system interfered with, "took up" the medicant>
Thank you for "listening" to my rant. And thank you very much for your time.
Sabrina
<And thank you for your continuing efforts, communication. BobF> 

Ich: Dosing main tank again. 2/3/2010
Hey Crew,
<Hi again Aaron.>
Well I'm back with more questions. Again, I have ich in my system.
<I remember. I seem to recall you were going to set up a FW Ray system as well.>
I am treating in my display with Cupramine.
<We've been over this before. Treating the main tank is a very bad idea unless you are treating with quinine. Copper is only going to kill the free swimming stages of the parasite.>
I know, not the best idea. I just don't have the ability to set up a big enough quarantine. I have taken all my rock out but I do still have substrate in the tank. I have been treating for about three weeks now and this darn ich is not going away. My substrate at first had absorbed some of the copper so it was a battle to keep the levels where they should be.
<Typical, which is why it is recommended to treat in a bare bottomed tank.>
For the last week to week and a half they measure within range. Could this be a resistant strain? Have my levels not been therapeutic long enough?
<If you are treating the main tank with copper, yes, it can take weeks http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
All of my fish are eating good and for the most part acting normal. Every other time I have used Cupramine it has cleared it up in no time.
<It cleared up on the fish, the parasite is still in your tank.>
Just don't get it? I was thinking possibly another parasite of some sort.
But wouldn't the Cupramine eradicate it as well? I have a few copper sensitive fish in the tank and don't want to expose them any more than I have to. Without the possibility of quarantine what would you guys say is my best attack method?
<Again, quinine....http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm >
Thank you again for your expert advice on this. Without a lfs in the area with a knowledgeable staff I have nowhere else to turn.
<MikeV>

To medicate or not to medicate (while in quarantine)? 2/1/2010
Good morning Crew -
<Good afternoon Chris>
After a long, unsuccessful battle with crypt a few months back, I'm in the slow process of restocking my tank. I've read and researched, asked questions and am doing whatever I can to not make the same mistakes I made the first time around. The end result is that I've got a few new quarantine tanks in the basement (one each for fish, inverts/algae, corals) and I've become a bit of a QT Nazi, for lack of a better description.
<Yes, but whereas the Nazi’s were bad, quarantine is definitely good!>
There are dozens of techniques/methods for acclimating new arrivals (dips, baths, etc.) and a host of procedures for quarantining / treating all of the different critters that will someday make themselves at home in my living room, and differences range from the benign to the extreme
<yes they do>.
I've taken what I believe the be the best information from all of the different sources I've read, and have acclimation and QT procedures for fish, mobile inverts, sessile inverts; all of which are manageable for me, within the confines of my available space/time/resources, and, I believe, give me the best chance of not introducing another deadly and/or destructive organism into my tank.
<It sounds like you have taken a lot of time and effort to learn all of this which is to your credit and will be to the benefit of the creatures that you keep>.
There's one part of the QT process that I'm unclear on, however, that I'd like another opinion on.
<Ok, but be advised that all you will get is my opinion. You must come to your own conclusions with reading, learning and experience>
After doing any dips/baths I feel necessary upon inspection of new arrivals/purchases, once the animal is in quarantine, should I treat it if I see no obvious signs of any disease?
<For invertebrates I would not, but for fishes I personally treat all with Chloroquine Phosphate. This viewpoint is not shared by all however, there are other, equally valid, courses/ actions>.
I'm a big fan of 'if its not broken, don't fix it' but I've been told that I'm playing with fire by not using  copper/formalin/malachite green or something other for unseen crypt parasites, or hyposalinity and increased temps for crypt and any other potential fish-killers.
<Yes, but with the advent of C.P. I feel that many concerns about unnecessarily medicating fishes are negated>.
Then there's flat-worm exit for corals, interceptor, fluke-exit, etc. etc.
<Yes, there are….>
For now, my thinking is that the fishes have been through enough already when they get to my house. I dip (m. blue or iodine), then just maintain good, clean, stable water conditions and watch for disease (or unwanted inverts riding along with corals) in quarantine.
<This is a perfectly valid procedure, I use a freshwater dip before QT myself>
If nothing turns up over the course of 35 days, I acclimate to main tank water, introduce to the reef, and enjoy with the family. <Yes> If something warrants further attention while under observation, needs medication more drastic measures, I deal with it as it comes. Am I okay with this line of thought, <Yes, I think you are> or should I really employ some sort of chemical warfare against unseen enemies during the quarantine period?
<Well, there are no rules here. IMO with the more hardy fishes there is no reason not to use C.P. It is your choice with the more sensitive ones, and with fishes that do not stand well to protracted QT procedures (for example Ctenochaetus Tangs are not good survivors). As long as you are using a QT tank and watching for anything unusual then you will avoid most problems, whether or not you resort to ‘chemical warfare’>
Thank you,
<No problem>
Chris
<Simon>

28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P.   1/29/10
Well, my aquarium has ICK and I can't find proper advice about how to handle this particular and urgent situation.
<Ok, let’s see if we can help>
The problem is, as I understand all the fish must be placed in quarantine for 8 weeks until the main tank becomes 99% ICK free.
<Yes, dependant on severity and situation>
I have an assortment of 10 fish. Copperband Butterfly, 2 black and white clowns, 2 Anthias (I think Bartlett's), 1 Royal Grammas, 1 Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Bluestreak Wrasse, 1 Diamond Goby, 1 Randall's Goby.
<Hmmmm, some of these fishes may not fare well with a prolonged QT period>
I am not sure whether to go with copper or hypo, but am currently leaning towards hypo.
<I would use neither. Chloroquine Phosphate is my weapon of choice: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
I tried garlic, both in the tank and soaked in food.
<Won’t work>
Also tried No-Ick.
<In-tank medication? No good IMO>
Those attempts haven't solved the problem, although they did take up valuable time. Now I am running out of time.
The Gramma is the worst. Still eating, but appears to be losing scales and I can see the discomfort and scratching. The butterfly is the next most adversely affected. I can't see Ick on the others, but the Anthias and Wrasse are scratching.
<They are all infested, mostly in their gills where you can’t see the skin reaction to the parasite>
I understand from WWM that Gobies and Blennies cannot take long periods in quarantine. Especially sand sifters.
<This is a difficult and trying time. These decisions and actions can easily result in the death of fishes, especially sensitive ones>
But I still need to keep them out of the main display for 8 weeks.
<Yes you do, in fact Noga suggests 3 months is necessary, but this is too long a QT period for most fishes by far>
I am hoping for advice on how to quarantine all for 8 weeks, with no substrate,
<Very carefully, in as large a QT tank as possible. Ammonia is the killer here, as long as you can keep the fishes feeding well, and keep TOTAL ammonia to zero (or at least as low as 0.25 temporarily at first) this CAN be done. However, this requires extreme effort on your part and is a very stressful time, trust me I know>.
or do I take the chance and quarantine the Gobies and Blenny for 2-4 weeks, or for as long as they can take it, and then put them back in the main tank?
<No, you will put back all of your hard work if you do this. I would use Chloroquine Phosphate in your QT tank, with some sponges (inert) in a canister or other large filter. I would purchase some of this fancy ‘instant-nitrifying bacteria-in–a-bottle’ stuff – Hagen’s ‘cycle’ is the one I have used successfully (Check the expiry dates) – and keep pouring this stuff in over the first two weeks of treatment to help build up a biological filter. Feed sparingly and test ammonia twice daily for the first two weeks, when you are happy with the ammonia long term, increase feeding, and test ammonia once a day after. Use water changes where you have to. DO NOT cease feeding, as some fishes will refuse to eat afterwards if you do this. This is why this is difficult to manage>.
How can the Diamond Goby survive even a few days in the no substrate hospital tank without satisfying its nature to constantly sift sand?
<hmmm, you could add some new dry sand to the QT after two weeks of CP treatment if you like. There has also been some success with using this med in the presence of a substrate but doing this is a bit ‘hit-and-miss’ as far as I understand. Maybe other crew members might know more about this, am copying into the main ‘in-box’ here>.
The other problem is my currently available hospital tank is only 29 gallons and I am pretty sure this is too small?
<Yes, by far - there is a good chance that some of your fishes will die. The danger is that when your fishes go into QT they will refuse to feed, or bully and stress each other in the confined space. Another danger is that the feeding itself plus the excretion from the gills will produce ammonia that will kill them. Doing massive water changes in such a small setting will stress the fish further, especially if they are daily. My advice is to purchase a larger QT tank>.
I certainly am amazed and appreciative of all that you do for the world of aquarium enthusiasts. I have learned a tremendous amount from WWM.
<Well, that’s great Peter and so have I! A plug for the use of quarantine BEFORE introduction for all livestock is appropriate here, and although my opinion differs from that of other crew members on this, I believe that all fishes should be quarantined with the prophylactic use of C.P.>.
Thanks,
<No problem Peter. If you go this road then diligence is required here, beware of complacency as this will kill your fish as surely as anything else. Please write back for more help with this if you need it, I fully sympathise with what you are going through and am more than willing to help further>.
-Peter
<Simon><<Well-done Simon. BobF>>

Re: 28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 1/30/10
<Hello Peter>
Very, very much appreciated. I am amazed at the quick response.
<That's what we're here to do>
I will implement the suggestions and report back. I probably researched ICK treatment 50 hours over the last two weeks and nothing I came across was as concise and accurate as this. Myself and all my fish are indebted to you.
<That's marvelous!>
Thank you,
-Peter
<Simon>

Re: 28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 2/1/2010
<Hello Peter>
I haven't yet started the ICK QT treatment recommendation since I still have to find and buy a larger QT tank set-up to accommodate all 10 fish. Not trying to reinvent science, but I have a new theory based on limited results and I hope to hear your expert opinion.
<Ok>
I did purchase a JBJ 13 Watt Submariner in-tank UV Sterilizer with the plan to put the UV in the QT tank that I planned to purchase, to help reduce the amount of free swimming ICK.
<This is no good, as UV will render most medications inactive, especially Chloroquine phosphate as this is photosensitive. The only method with which this would be of benefit would be with hyposalinity in a QT tank>.
I have not used UV prior but seemed to read that UV will kill some ICK at low flow rates past the UV bulb.
<Yes>
I also understand that UV kills some of the good stuff too.
<Yes, but not a major concern as there should be plenty more ‘good stuff’ in the system. That is, if you have not killed it off already by using supposed ‘reef safe’ treatments in your main system. These are not reef safe, as much of the microscopic life that is integral to your ‘reef’ is killed off, to the detriment of all>.
Anyhow, I temporarily put the UV Sterilizer in the main tank and am quite surprised at how crystal clear the tank water becomes. I don't know if some microscopic ICK are being removed by the UV,
<probably yes> but there is certainly a noticeable improvement in water clarity.
<Be sure to keep the quartz shaft clean, the bulb replaced and the correct flow rate through – a lot of work for not such a huge benefit. More useful is Ozone IMO>.
Common opinion tends to indicate that UV will kill some of the ICK, but this isn't a method to completely rid a tank of the disease since 100% of the tank water will not pass through the UV.
<Correct>.
Purchasing a large QT tank to accommodate all 10 fish along with the associated difficulties of the 8 week QT process is a little daunting
<It is good that you find it daunting – this means that if you go this road you are more likely to succeed because you know the potential pitfalls>
which would be nice to avoid, if possible.
<I understand where you are coming from here>.
So I was wondering, if purchasing another UV Sterilizer for the other side of the tank, <I wouldn’t – for reasons stated> or even two more UVs, <no> coupled with the unconventional methods of heavy garlic <maybe a little mixed w/ some vitamins in the food>, increasing the tank temperature to speed up the ICK life cycle,
<this is playing with chemistry to try to ‘fix’ something. Not a good route IMO> maybe lower salinity to 1.014 or so,
<no point in doing this unless it is 1.009, and many strains of crypt have survived even this> vitamins to help boost the fish self defense mechanisms
<I would do this>
and perhaps in-tank medication such as Kick-Ich
<I would never use a med. in my main system for various reasons. I have in the past, and regretted it> could collectively become a full solution to rid the tank of ICK.
<I’m sorry to say Peter that even if you applied all of these it will not rid the tank completely. I think you have a choice here between a fallow period and quarantine, or trying to ‘strike a balance’ and accepting that this parasite is with you for good. Really, that choice is down to you and what you think your fishes can take, and whether you think you can manage the system w/ this parasite present. Many do so reasonably successfully, but sometimes the infestation reaches a ‘point of no return’ where action must be taken>.
It seems that some of the new ICK tomites will not find a host fish, some will be zapped by the multiple UV Sterilizers, some may be repelled by garlic <no, this is used to ‘boost’ the immune system>, some may be neutralized by Kick-Ich <not w/ UV present> and the fish immune system may become better equipped to fight off the new reduced amounts of ICK attacks.
<I understand your reasoning, but this won’t work>
My understanding is that ICK newly attached to a fish grows and then leaves the fish in 5-7 days?
<In my experience this can be 1 – 8 days for the visible signs (skin reaction) to disappear>
For the situation to become progressively worse requires a constant supply of new ICK attaching to the fish???
<Yes, but understand that some will remain attached to the fish for longer than others, and more will remain encysted on the substrate for different amounts of time, thus meaning that at any one time in a large infestation all stages of the parasite are present in the system>
Therefore, greatly limiting the amount of new free-swimming ICK should give the fish some short term relief and
hopefully they will be able to ultimately win the battle.
<This is a hope that many have...>
Forgot to mention, regular, even daily partial water changes too, to help remove and further reduce the amount of tomites.
<Yes, but this is best done in a bare bottomed QT with vacuuming/ scrubbing of the sides of the tank>
Is this worth a try, or do you feel that I would just be delaying the inevitable full QT requirement.
<As stated Peter, I think you have but two choices here. If you opt for the ‘balance’ then I would employ some Lysmata shrimps to help ‘ease’ the irritation, but I am sure you are aware, this is not a cure either. From the sounds of the severity of your problem, if it were me & mine I would be carefully QT-ing the lot for 8 weeks>.
Thanks again,
-Peter
<No problem, Simon>

SW med. reading, BFs, Velvet, Copper  – 01/30/10
Hi everyone
Hi again guys lol. Ok, so I am in the middle of a two month fallow period in my 90gal tank due to a velvet outbreak. I currently have my 3..5" Heniochus in a ten gallon
<Yikes>
QT tank with a penguin 150 HOB power filter a heater and some sand in a pouch from my main tank to avoid a level spike (or at least help with it). I have medium amount of circulation and an airstone for oxygen. I just made the first dose of Cupramine.
<... I would not expose these, or most other Chaetodontids to copper... Look into/use a Quinine compound instead. Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Now, the label says to dose this for two weeks
<Not w/o testing for free copper daily>
and your good to go (if no signs of spots or symptoms), but do you think this is long enough?
<I suggest you read re Cu use on WWM>
I know for a face there is velvet in the water because it's the same water that was from my display tank. If not two weeks, what amount of time do you feel is safe enough to say the fish is free of velvet and can be placed back into the display? And, how do you feel about the "Prime" product by Seachem just in case I run into problems with ammonia and water changes aren't completely
cutting it?
Thanks,
J
<Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down... Bob Fenner>

Re more SW dis. w/o reading  1/30/10
Ok thanks Bob. Is there anywhere unparticular that you recommend I purchase Quinine Sulfate from?
<Please read where you were referred to. Sources are listed there. B>
I can't find much online and for a reasonable price at that. And is the success rate with killing velvet as good as that of Copper?
<And this...>
Thanks

30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine   1/31/2010
Hi everyone
<Hello Jason>
I am reading now......only thing is I can't find the answer to my one question.......can I use Quinine Sulfate in my display tank and kill off the Velvet?
<It is not likely to work. The presence of substrate can affect the med, and the lifecycle of the parasite means that it will still be in your system when treatment finishes. This is best done in a QT setting. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm>
It says it does not kill beneficial bacteria.
<Does not, but neither is it likely to the job you want it to here. Simon>.

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine 2/1/2010
<Jason>
Ok Simon, thanks for responding. So since the life cycle is so long with Velvet, how long shall I QT for in order to be sure that the life cycle is complete?
<Have you read where you were referred? 8 weeks ‘fallow’ time>
If the Quinine doesn't get absorbed (hence bare bottom tank), will it work faster?
<No, this will take 8 weeks, although the treatment period is not this long. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>.
Also, I have a lil nylon bag of sand from my main tank in my QT tank to add some beneficial bacteria and help with suppress a new cycle and level spikes. Will that be enough to absorb the Quinine?
<Mmmm, maybe. Maybe not. I would not use this, it may well harbour some parasites as well as absorb the med. Instead I would use some bacteria-in-a-bottle to seed some inert sponges in a filter>.
Or does it have to be a full sand bed in order to absorb it?
<To my knowledge there is no data on this. If there is, or if any of the crew knows more here I am sure they will chip in>.
Thanks
<Simon>

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine – 02/02/10
Ok thanks Simon,
<No problem>
I think you misunderstood me........I was indeed referring to the "treatment period" not the "fallow period". But you did answer my question saying that the treatment period will not be as long as the full 8-week cycle of the parasite.
<That's good news>
Thanks again
<Simon>

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine   2/8/10
Hey guys.
<Hello Jason>
Jeez, I am just full of issues lol. Now I followed what the "crew" suggested and I am using Quinine to treat Velvet.
<Ok>
But my issues now are....AMMONIA/NITRITE (Ammonia almost .25ppm and nitrite the same).
<Yes – the most common reason for mortality in QT tanks by far>
I did use my display tank water (which has been seasoned for over four months)
<No good, as most of the bacteria required are attached to ‘surfaces’>
but apparently ceramic rings and stars weren't enough to keep from having a mini "recycle" of the tank.
<Were these ‘seeded’ or new?>
I am using bacteria (Nite-out by Microbelift) and a product called Prime to help aid in the cycle process along with daily 25% water changes (which all are indeed helping).
<Yes, these are your best methods, although I am unsure if using Prime might interfere with the Quinine>
My concern is that my Butterfly (Chaetodon Ulietensis) will be bothered by the nitrogenous waste (like each and every Butterfly profile on WWM states). Will this be ok temporarily or is there a good chance my Butterfly will pass on?
<Should be ok short term (a few days). This requires diligence on your part, careful observation, testing. You can cease feeding for a few days to help here, but not much longer if you can help it. Feed sparingly afterwards until the ammonia is under control.>
Bob states these are indeed tough, but how tough?
<Mmmm, tough by Butterfly standards yes, but not what I would call tough overall>
Should I be concerned?
<Yes>
Anything else you recommend?
<Mmmm, purchase of a larger QT system.... to use BEFORE introduction of livestock to your display, as well as treating now>
Thanks so much.....AGAIN lol!
<No problem, Simon>
Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine
Thanks again.
<No prob.s>
The bio rings have been in my display tank since I started it four months ago, so they are "used".
<Mmm, lets hope they do not harbour encysted parasites>
Also, for the Quinine, the directions say to use two treatments at full strength? Is this what you would do?
<I would follow the manufacturers directions to the letter>
Is the treatment over after just two doses like the directions state?
<Yes, your fish are placed into the QT tank w/ the med. When the parasites 'drop off' the fishes to encyst they are killed by the med. in the water>.
And what would you recommend I do with the new 20gal QT that I purchase?
<Use it pronto>
Will the water from my ten gallon and the bio rings inside be enough?
<Mmmm, I would transfer all immediately, and top off w/ new water. Keep using the bottled bacteria>
Thanks
<No problem Jason. Do write back w/ your results and watch the ammonia. Simon>

Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine
<Hello again Jason>
Wow that was fast.......lol.
<I was online... Now it is a bleary eyed morning!>
Ok sounds good, I will be in touch with you. I just tested ammonia and I'm at almost zero but nitrite are between 0 and .25ppm.
<This will be ok, keep at it>
So I guess I'm nearing the end of the mini cycle. Which bottled bacteria do you feel is the most effective?
<I've used a couple and found Hagens Cycle to be the best, but there are many I have not tried at all>
And do you like Nite-out?
<I am not familiar w/ the product>
If the bio rings did have encysted parasites the Quinine would still kill them correct?
<No, it won't. If it did then no-one would ever use anything else. To my knowledge there is no chemical that will kill these and not kill everything else, my understanding is that all act on the free swimmers. You will probably be ok here though, but if you are nervous (like me) I would put some inert sponge in a filter in the QT and gradually remove the bio rings bit by bit once you have the ammonia under control, and before you finish the treatment course>
And would the Quinine be just as effective when just treating the water in a QT with no fish?
<? why would you want to do this? You mean in your display sans fish? No.>
All these questions I know.......sorry.
<No problem>
Thanks Simon
<Ok!>

Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine  2/10/10
Hey Simon,
<Hello Jason>
You are of MUCH help in this process, I really appreciate it.
<No problem, but do remember - these problems are of your own making from the lack of use of a QT tank before you add fishes to your display>
To follow up on the last email you sent over to me.....I was referring to treating my QT tank (NOT display tank) with Quinine before I added fish,
<? You mean you have not already acted? I'm scrolling down here and it seems this has been going on for a month. If you suspected Velvet then you should have acted and separated the fishes immediately as James initially advised. I am confused here.. are you purchasing new fish when you have a parasitised system?>
what do you think?
<I would medicate the QT first and then add the fish after, if it was Velvet.... but I suspect since the amount of time this has been going on now (a month) that what you have is actually Cryptocaryon... either way the treatment is the same>
I want to try to kill a lot of the parasites so I don't have to put the new fish into so much stress.
<Mmmm, these will drop off and die in the med. anyway after a few days - most of the stress will come from general QT tank conditions over time>
Also, the directions to the Quinine Sulphate are VERY vague. It says....."Dose 1/4 teaspoon every 24 hours with 25% water changes before each dose....". So how long shall I treat this for?
<Please read here, there is plenty of info that can help you: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Shall I dose daily for a week, for ten days? What do you think? And, unfortunately I just added a Heniochus in my QT and it has Velvet already.
<?>
I started treatment with the Quinine the SAME day I noticed spots on the fish, will the Quinine act quickly enough? Is it a fast acting medication or does it take several days?
<Please read/ learn the lifecycle of this parasite Jason, it is the key to successful treatment and you have been referred to it several times. It is virtually identical to Marine Ich, Cryptocaryon>
Thanks again
<No Problem>
Simon.....your AWESOME!!!
<Simon>

Marine Ich  1/20/10
Hello WWM crew,
<Hi Jeremy>
This is my first time writing to you all so hopefully this goes well. I love your site and have used it in starting my saltwater hobby every step of the way. I live in Oklahoma and recently we encountered a blizzard that caused
a power outage as of a few weeks back.
<No fun>
Causing my water temps to take a drop to almost 65 degrees for a day. I don't know if temp drops can be a cause
directly but maybe due to stress shortly after I noticed my Pink Tailed Trigger fish (I will stick to common names if that's okay)
<Sure. Only important that we communicate clearly, accurately as to what is what>
developed what seemed like my first case of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). Now for my set-up and live stock introduction. Set-up: 125 Gallon FOWLR, Marineland C-360 Canister Filter, Aqua Tech 30/60 Power Filter, Eco Aquilizer (don't crucify me).
<Not a modern or ancient Roman, nor Vlad the Impaler!>
I do not have a protein skimmer at the moment or a UV Sterilizer I know these are considered necessity
<Mmm, no... but I'd trade in the magnetic gizmo and use the money for a skimmer for sure>
but I do weekly 15% water changes every Sunday religiously to keep water parameters in check. Which are all undetectable except for nitrates.
<Which are?>
Although those are in the safe range. Expected with FOWLR tanks. Now for the livestock: Volitans Lionfish,
Stars and Stripes Puffer, Snowflake Eel, Huma Rectangle Trigger, Blue Spotted Puffer, Yellow Tang. Okay now for the problem it has spread to all of my fish I'm guessing the lion fish and stars and stripes puffer haven't shown visible signs but I did my research it doesn't mean they aren't carrying the parasites.
<Correct>
Obviously I do not have a large enough tank to quarantine all my livestock to leave my tank fallow for a month or so. So knowing this I contacted National Fish Pharmaceuticals as that was suggested several times on your site. They suggested Crypto Pro a hobbyist retail version of Quinine Sulfate,
<Good>
and that I could treat using this in my display tank. So that sounded like the best option to me. They gave me
instructions to put in 1/8 teaspoon per ten gallons of water and to leave in the system for 5-7 days removing carbon from my filters. On day three of the treatment it really seemed to be working all was well my fish never stopped eating so there was no change in that but they were itching a lot less. Well then it went down hill from there around day 5 it just seemed to have gotten worse and then it was full blown on every fish but the lionfish. So I am severely frustrated and out of ideas.
<I think the Quinine "ran out"... it got absorbed by various elements in your main display... I would have re-treated>
I haven't lost any fish and would like to keep it that way. I'm not giving up on these guys so I'm open to any
suggestions.
<I would re-treat now. Repeat the dosage in two-three days>
Sorry for being long winded but I figured the more descriptive the better and maybe someone else could relate to my situation. So is there any advice you could give me? I do still have enough Quinine Sulfate for 2 more 5-7 day
doses. or should I try a different approach?
<I would try the QS again myself, as you have it on hand. IF you had Chloroquine Phosphate as well I'd use it instead>
Thanks for everything your team does. Your site is an excellent source of information to any aquarist.
Jeremy Wright
<Sorry to not have responded to you sooner. Bob Fenner><Oh! I've included input we/WWM rec'd today below... Pertinent, useful to you. RMF>

Re: Recommendation for fish illness, Crypt, Quinine trtmt. follow-up  1/20/10
Mr. Fenner,
<Daniel>
I would like thank you for your support and give you an update on my fish treatment using Quinine Sulfate (QS).
<Thank you>
First, I quarantined my lawnmower blenny and mandarin in an 8 gallon system and my Tomini tang to a 24 gallon system. Both tanks were treated with 1/4 tsp of QS for every 10 gallons of water. I performed a water change twice a day to control ammonia as I didn't have/allow the biological filter to establish ahead of time. The water changes were treated with QS and bio-Spira at the time of each change (I did this after speaking with National Fish Pharmaceuticals about the half-life of QS and was told it does lose strength during treatment but the added 'fresh' mix during a water change would not harm the fish).
<Yes... and thank you for this reminder>
After the first treatment (7 days) all the Ich spots on the tang were gone but another problem showed itself, Hexamita.
I started the second treatment of QS on the two systems and also added Metronidazole to the tang's treatment (both are safely mixed and did not stress the fish or effect the biological filter).
<Good>
Yesterday was the end of all treatments. I performed a 25% water change on both systems and added activated carbon to remove the remaining medication. All fish are doing great and will remain in quarantine for 3-4 more weeks for observation and to allow the display to stay fallow a total of 5-6 weeks.
<Outstanding. You have good discipline and a clear, sharp mind... Capacity for relating>
Thanks again for your support! I hope this information will be valuable to others
Daniel
<Indeed it will; rest assured. Bob Fenner> 

Ich and Quinine Sulfate: When to dose: 1/6/2010
Hello,
<Hi John.>
I have a 55 gallon QT setup with 4 fish I newly purchased. The blue hippo tang I purchased has ich spots on him.
<Not really surprising, they seem more prone to it than others.>
The other fish have no ich.
<yet.... They are sharing the same tank, they will get it.>
He usually hides under or in the pvc pipe and appears to be having rapid breathing.
<From the Ich>
I've caught him eating some Nori and some pellets but I'd like for him to eat more.
<Eating at all is a good sign.>
I've added garlic extract and Selcon and it seems like they are not attracted to the food. Should I treat the QT now for ich or wait till my fish eat a lil more?
<Treat now.>
I cycled a large amount of medium (filters) for my QT so I don't have to worry about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate
spikes or building up.
<Good to plan ahead>
From what I've read quinine sulfate can destroy your biological filtration which would in turn give you an ammonia spike. Is this true?
<No, one of the nice things about quinine is that it does not destroy your biological filter>
I've done hyposalinity in the past with success but maintaining a steady pH was the most difficult part.
<Hypo isn't really that effective.>
<have a read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm >
Thanks,
John

Re: At my wits end: Crypt control, lack of QT, Copper in display tank.
Good Candidate for Quinine treatment 12/16/2009

This seems like an expensive treatment.
<Hi Aaron, Yes, it isn't exactly cheap.>
On the website it says to do a 25% water change daily.
<No, it says 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. Treat one time and leave in the water for 5-7 days.
For resistant Ich, treat once every three days with a 25% water change before each treatment. Do at least 3 treatments = 9 day period.>
Is this a must?
<Follow the instructions exactly.>
So basically this treatment is less harmful to my pets?
<Yes>
And will not destroy the biological filtration?
<No it will not. It will kill all snails though.>
<MikeV>

Re: Acclimating Lysmata amboinensis, and CP trtmt.  12/16/2009
Hi Bob,
Thanks a lot, that cleared up almost everything.
<Ahh; clarity is pleasurable>
When I adjust the ph upwards with the system water, how slow should this be done ?
Over how many hours ?
How slowly should I drip the ph adjusted water into the bag water ?
<An hour per full pH point is about right... as a medical student, earnest academic I am sure you appreciate the order of magnitude in Hydrogen ion content, the implications here>
And one last question. Three weeks back you had suggested I use Chloroquine phosphate to treat my fish which showed symptoms of both Crypt and Amyloodinium. Since my qt is not big enough I had to separate the fish into
two batches as I am leaving the display fallow. Most of them are treated in the qt whereas the yellow tang and the cleaner wrasse are treated in a large inert plastic tub. Everything was going on fine until suddenly the water in the container has turned deep yellow about a day back ! Its almost impossible to see the fish and the Tang keeps trying to jump out. What is this due to ?
<A over simplistic jargonistic statement but: "Metabolite interactions"...
Best to...>
Already did a partial water change. Should I go with another larger change and replenish the medicine or not ?
<Change most all the water and re-new the medicine to full concentration.
BobF>

Quinine Sulfate: Good for a stocked tank? Follow up questions on Published WWM FAQs 12/8/2009
Hi WetWeb People
<Hi Thai.>
My blue ring has itch.
<Blue Ringed Angel? ><<Likely Pomacanthus annularis Mike. RMF>>
Was reading the FAQ on itch and I see that MikeV recommended Quinine Sulfate as it is less stressful on fish and also doesn't wipe out the biological filtration like copper.
<This is correct, but as I also stated, it will kill any mollusk in your tank.>
If this is the case can I use it in the main tank.
<It is always preferable to treat in QT, but there are instances where it is beneficial or even necessary to treat a display tank.>
It's a FOWLR. The reason I ask is that I am looking at alternative methods to treat. I have a 375 gallon with 500 pounds of like rock so catching the fish is no easy task, otherwise I would just let it run empty.
<Using it in the tank would likely be beneficial for you then.>
The other problem I have is that my QT tank is only 55 gallons. Not ideal for a six bar angel, blue ring, yellow tang, 9 fusiliers, 3 chromis and 2 triggers.
<Heheh, I agree..>
I am also open to try Garlic in food as an alternative.
<My opinion on garlic is while it may help, it is not a cure.>
My yellow tang and six bar have not contracted white spot so I'm assuming that is natural immune system is doing wonders.
<Or, it just has not caught it yet.>
Also thinking of buying a cleaner goby to help relieve stress.
<They may help, but with your tank, they are more likely to become trigger food.>
Also was reading in the FAQ on itch (have read a lot) that itch or white spot is practically in every system and keeping water level stable is the key.
<Yes>
Therefore is it possible to treat the blue ring angel only in the QT with Quinine Sulphate and leave him for 4 weeks and then re-introduce it to the main tank. Would he just contract it again or will he develop immunity.
<It is still in your tank in high enough quantities, it would catch it again.>
Looking for alternatives as I am going on holiday in 9 days time and nothing else looks practical for now.
<I would use Quinine. You will need a good amount of water made up in advance for the necessary water changes.>
Wanting to know your opinion on this idea and feedback on GARLIC EXTREME.
Had read some stories in FAQ and its successes and am currently will to try any route before going to the sure fire copper route as its worked in the pass.
<Again, I think it can help, but garlic is not going to cure anything.>
PS in Australia so I'm probably messaging at odd times but hope for your input soon
Kind Regards,
Thai Pham
<My Pleasure.>
<MikeV>

Quinine Sulfate: Good for a stocked tank? Follow up questions on Published WWM FAQs 12/10/2009
Thanks heaps MikeV.
<Hi Thai.>
The only thing I need to take out of the tank is the hermit crab then.
<Snails, clams, etc.>
Don't have anything else apart from it, rock and fish. Didn't notice any white spot on blue ring angel today so I might have misdiagnose. Will give it one or two days careful observations before I go try Quinine Sulphate.
Once again thanks for your advice.
<Very good. In response to your other questions in a separate email, It is dosed at 1/4 teaspoon (1.25 ml) per 10 gallons (38 l) with a 50% water change after 7 days. Remove all chemical filtration (Carbon, etc) from the system and turn any UV or skimmers off.>
<As to where to purchase, you can try http://www.nationalfishpharm.com I don't know if they will ship to AU, but it is worth a look, Otherwise, you can consult with a veterinarian.>
Thai
<MikeV>

Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich  12/3/09
Greetings to my FAVORITE people at WWM!
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate Bob and the whole crew.
<I sense your earnest friendship and thank you>
Well, I should have taken Bob's advice on November 10th and removed all my fishes from my 225 gallon reef and treated them with hyposalinity and ordered Quinine Sulphate. Not listening to wisdom caused me the lives of my favorite Kole Tang, two little Neon Gobies, and I think my Filament Wrasse
(his MIA since Thanksgiving night when I DID FINALLY TOOK ALL THE FISHES OUT).
The reason for me to write is not only to pay respect for the knowledge at WWM but also to share some information that I've learned about Quinine Sulphate and some "other" treatments.
<Ahh, please do>
I wasted time by attempting to treat with "REEF SAFE" products: Ich Attack, Herbtana, Kick Ich. They were all indeed REEF SAFE, my hermits, shrimps, urchin, worms were all alive and well after two weeks of using those products concurrently. I can't say they killed ich because my fish still had them, but I cannot say that they might not help them some as they did not decline in health until after two weeks. But this delay caused the lives that I will feel guilty about for much time to come.
So, on Thanksgiving night I enjoyed moving 260 pounds of live rock and corals out of my tank to catch the fishes. PBTang, Atlantic Blue Tang, Flame Angel, Cleaner Wrasse (I know not to ever get these again from what I've learned here at WWM), Lubbock's Wrasse, Clown Fairy Wrasse are currently doing much better in a 55 gallon hospital tank. PBT and ABT were treated with a pH and temperature matched fresh water dip prior to entering the hospital tank since they were showing the worst infection.
I then treated with hyposalinity that was dropped over 3 days to 1.009 and then raised over 3 days to 1.020. (Yeah - they did not stay at 1.009 for more than 36 hours as I decided to treat with the Quinine and I needed to bring salinity back up.)
Tonight is day 1 of Quinine Phosphate treatment.
I dosed at 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. I recommend that people mix this medication in some tank water prior to putting it in the tank - it sort of clumped up when put directly in the tank but it is slowly dissolving.
I contacted National Fish Pharmacy due to conflicting information regarding dosing schedule. Dr. Aukes there recommended to do ONE treatment and let the medication sit in there without a water change for seven days.
<I concur>
Then a 50 percent water change at the end of seven days. Make sure that UV, protein skimmer are turned OFF. Remove all carbon, Purigen, etc.
<Yes, all chemical and physical filtration needs to be off, removed>
Since giving medications, all fishes are looking fine without any signs of additional stress. Interestingly they are showing areas where they've been scratching on their skin.
<Yes... pits>
They are actively eating (by the way - Nat'l Fish Pharm recommends that you DO NOT FEED during treatment to keep water parameters in acceptable range.)
<Mmm, I'd be feeding sparingly>
I will be feeding some because I think it is good that they eat but will be monitoring parameters closely and will use water that I'm made up especially with the purpose of changing water if needed. (20 gallon tank with SG 1.023 and 1/2 teaspoon of Quinine pre-made on the same date - this way, I believe that the medications will have the same effectiveness with it's half life.)
I had read at WWM.com that light should be turned off. Dr. Aukes explained that only UV light would affect the medication. Lights can stay on with Quinine treatment.
<I agree with this as well>
Well, I do apologize for this long winded recap of the events but just in case if Chris is not the receiver of this e-mail.
<I will send it on to him>
Again, I cannot thank all of you enough to educate me about the lives that we take from the ocean. I will always listen to the advice of the wise, and Bob - you are very wise!
<Heeee! Perhaps a wise-n-heimer at times>
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<And you for sharing your experience, learning here Jamie. You have thus saved MANY folks trouble and MANY fish livestock their health. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich – 12/09/09
Hello Bob and Crew at WWM!
Just wanted to give you an update on the Quinine Phosphate treatment and ask a question.
<Please do>
Day 6 of QP and all is looking good. No sign of reinfection or secondary infection after ich "fell off" on day 2 -3 of QP. Skin on all the fishes have been cleared and NO SPOTS!
Well, it sure feels good to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel after those very "exciting" three weeks. They are weeks that I hope that I will NEVER have to re-live.
<Amen>
I'm thinking of continuing the QP for a total of 10 days instead of 7 due to Cryptocaryon irritans' life cycle. I'm not sure at which stage QP is effective against C. irritans, do you know?
<Mostly during the free-swimming stage/s>
All fishes are responding well without signs of undue stress. I've had to do 10 - 20 gallon water changes daily on the 55 gallon hospital to keep ammonia in check as I did not have a cycled tank to start out with (I will be ready
if there is a need in the future!).
My question is that I am going on holiday to the Maldives to do some snorkeling with hubby (Yippi) and my original plan was to put the fishes BACK TO DT which will be fallow for 5 weeks at 10 days before we leave, that way, I can observe them and if I need to, "capture" them if re-infection occurs BEFORE we leave. The choice then would be to take them to my LFS and they will keep them in a 30 gallon running in series with the 10,000 gallon system. Plan two, is to get a bigger QT, maybe a 90 gallon, run that just like the hospital tank (bare bottom with PVC condo and plastic plants, couple of coral skeletons) with seeded filter from my other "ich free" tanks. That way, my DT can remain fallow for as long as I need - 10 plus weeks, and if the fishes break out with ich while we are gone, they will be easier to catch.
<I'd go with your first choice, plan here>
I also wanted to just say a really sincere, THANK YOU, to Bob and everyone at WWM. The amount of valuable information presented at WWM is truly amazing. I've been reading and learning about QT, Dips, and responsible aquarium keeping from you all, and I do believe that if it is not for this web site, I would not have these adoring creatures that are trying to get me to go feed them right now.
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<Ahh! Most welcome Jamie. And have a great trip to the Maldives. Bob Fenner>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich – 12/09/09
Hi Bob!
<Hello Jamie!>
Thanks for the quick response!
Just to make sure that I understand you right...
You said to put them back in the display tank after 5 weeks running fallow instead of leaving them in a bigger hospital tank and wait till after I come back to put them in the DT?
<Yes. I would do the former: return these fishes to the main display>
Is your reasoning behind this that the tank should be rid of C. irritans after five weeks and it would be less  stressful
on the fishes in the DT?
Jamie
<Exactly. Cheers, BobF>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich – 12/09/09
I see what you mean.
I've been looking into this "empty" tank for the past several days and I see all sorts of life there: I learned about Columbellids from Lynn and know that they are flourishing in my tank making lots of egg sacks and seeing some teeny tiny babies crawling around on my glass, whole families of copepods living on this hole-y piece of rock - I never knew they can get as big as half an inch with their whiskers,
<Some species considerably larger!>
I learned that I don't have to "feed" the corals and they are growing just fine with the nutrients produced by the life in the tank.
<Yes>
The night I took the fishes out, all I saw was a bunch of rocks piled in water but now it is teaming with life - it will be a lovely home for the fishes when they feel better. Not to mention, I'll feel better as I swim with their relatives in the Maldives.
Have a wonderful evening Bob, and good night!
:)
Jamie
<Ahh! Thank you Jamie. BobF>

Quarantine and Ich prevention   11/3/09
Hi crew,
<Good morrow to you Claudio>
First of all, a big thank for your effort and precious info on the site.
<Welcome>
I have a question on proper quarantine protocol and specifically on ich prevention in the display tank.
<Ok>
My display tank is a 180 g reef that I am trying to keep it as disease free as I can to the best of my ability. I am quarantining pretty much everything wet I place inside the display, fish corals, rocks and even the Chaetomorpha I initially placed in the refugium.
<Sounds good>
(the only things I failed to quarantine were snails, 2 clams and a Linckia starfish. I know I took a risk there but I was not sure how to properly quarantine and feed these animals). My display has been running very well and so far completely disease free for the 6 months it has been operational.
<All right>
Discussing with many in the hobby I repeatedly hear that a ich free tank is a myth.
<Mmm, are actually rare, but such "unicorns" do exist>
I do not subscribe to this statement. As any transmissible disease, if the offending parasite is not introduced, it may be difficult but certainly possible to have a ich free system.
<We are in agreement; and I have been to aquaculture facilities of size that are specific pathogen free>
Given this premise my question is on a proper quarantine protocol and here I am a little bit confused. As I read the FAQ on QT it is recommended over and over to QT the fish withholding any treatment unless disease become evident. As far as crypto is concerned I believe it is a safe assumption to consider any purchased fish to at least be
colonized by ich. Surely these fish will have encountered ich at some point in their journey to our tanks, either in the sea, in the transhipper holding tanks or the LFS.
<Mmm, possibly. I suspect that the prevalence of Cryptocaryon in the wild is not high... and many collectors, wholesale facilities are set up to individually sterilize shared water, utilize net and specimen container sterilizing techniques...>
Most will have received copper treatment at some point,
<Again, this is a fading practice. The larger, better wholesalers do not use copper IME>
however one cannot be sure if the proper concentration and necessary time to eradicate the parasite has been
observed.
<I do agree with this statement>
The QT protocol I have been using is to place new fish on the QT.
Acclimate for several days, then start treatment with Quinine Sulphate dosed according to manufacture instructions. This medication opposite to copper causes minimal disruption to the biologic filter and ammonia spikes have not been a problem. Almost all fish have tolerated this well, only exception was a diamond goby that appeared overly stressed..
<Could be attributed to handling, the small environment>
After treatment (usually takes 9 days) the fish are dipped in fresh water with metilene
<Methylene>
blue and then introduced in the display tank.
Is my reasoning flawed or perhaps I am just over killing?
<Well... as you state you did not isolate some other livestock... these Protozoan complaints can be vectored by anything wet), there is some chance there of contamination... But I don't consider your protocol to be
excessive>
I am relatively new to the hobby and I would truly appreciate if any of you could elaborate on the matter. This would be very helpful to me and possibly other who are trying o do "the right thing".
Thanks
Claudio
<I think you're fine here. Bob Fenner>

Re: Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F   11/3/09
Thanks for all the great help once again. Quick follow-up...
Should I use Chloroquine phosphate (CP) in the treatment tank now "just to be safe", or should I wait to see if there are any sure signs of ich?
<If I had it on hand, I would administer it>
I'm just about done with the hypo treatment, so I wouldn't want to subject the fish to longer time in QT-like conditions for another month if unnecessary. One of the FAQs suggested not using hyposalinity with CP. Do you agree with this?
<Can add stress... but if all the fish livestock are in good health otherwise...>
If so, I'll need to take a week or so to up the salinity before starting CP.
<Okay>
If I go ahead and use CP in the treatment tank, is it necessary to perform a bath before returning the fish to the display?
<Not necessary, no>
Also, in the treatment tank, I had put in some sand and a few live rocks to make the fish comfortable and to give a head start on the bacteria since I was adding so many fish to a new startup (also had to use Stability and Prime and plenty of water changes until the ammonia and nitrites were down to zero). Lighting has been very low (and I'll turn off the tank lights entirely during treatment), so there's not much in the way of
algae. Should I remove the sand and/or rocks before using the CP?
<I would not. The chance, likely loss of biofiltration there is appreciable>
Or is it safe to leave the sand and rocks, since there are no inverts/corals and little algae in the treatment tank?
<I would, yes>
I guess I will find a new home for the lion (sad). Even a neon cleaner goby would be at risk.
<Mmm, actually, not too likely.>
I saw a recommendation of 2 cleaner shrimp per 50g. If I wanted to get a neon goby as well, do I need to scale back the number of cleaner shrimp, or does it not matter, since neither the goby nor the shrimp rely exclusively on parasites to feed?
<Up to you>
I was thinking about 6 L. amboinensis, 2 L. debelius and 1 G. oceanops.
Thanks again!
Sean
<Welcome. BobF>
RE: Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F
Wow! That was fast, and VERY helpful. Thanks again!
<Welcome. B>

Re: Harlequin Tusk, hlth. Quinine cpd. sources  – 11/03/09
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am interested in trying quinine compounds to treat crypt. Do fish stores supply it or is it available from drug stores?
What are some brands available? Thanks again.
John Catanzariti
<Can be procured through a human MD, veterinarian, or some specialty etailers... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
BobF>

Copper and quarantine tank: A textbook opportunity to use Quinine. 8/23/2009
Hi Crew.
<Hi Claudio.>
First of all thank you for the wonderful site.
<Our pleasure.>
I have a question on copper use and quarantine tanks.
<Shoot.>
Here is the situation. I upgraded from a 40G SW tank to a 180G. The 180G has ~ 160 lb of rocks that have been cured for 1-1/2 months on a separate vat. The 180G has been running for about a week cycling with a cooked shrimp. It has not gone through the ammonia spike, nitrite, nitrate process yet. In the meantime I took down the old tank that was succumbing to Cyano and hair algae (I have never been able to keep NO3 and PO4 low for some reason). I saved the live rocks, cleaned them and placed on a separate container with a powerhead and no light.
<Thank you for these details.>
I placed the fish ( a yellow tang and a clown fish) into a 20G quarantine tank with a hang on filter and a remora C hang on filter. The quarantine tank was properly cycled and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 2 ppm nitrate.
<All sounds good so far.>
My fish at some point years ago had ich, they got over it and never had it again. I would hate to introduce ich on the new 180g and probably my fish are colonized by it even without evident infection.
<it is a safe bet it is in your tank, as well as everyone else who keeps a SW tank It is just a matter of keeping the infection under control.>
For this reason I decided to quarantine the fish and treat them with copper  (Cupramine)
for 4 weeks prior to introducing them on the new tank. The fish have been on the quarantine tank for 1 week without copper and the water parameters were unchanged from the one mentioned above.
<Generally not the best of practices. I can understand your rationale for  doing so, but copper is very stressful on fish.>
As I went to buy Cupramine I saw a beautiful powder brown tang ~ 3" and since I was going to quarantine the old fish I decided to go ahead and buy it. It is a good specimen, healthy, actively swimming and feeding well. Here I should have done more research since it turned out to be A. Nigricans and not A. Japonicus and I now know the difference in adaptability to a captive environment between the two species.
<You are in for a challenge.>
I decided to give the new fish some time to adapt prior to adding copper.
For 3 days all was well. The new tang had a good color, was swimming very actively, eating well flake food from my hands. It had a few light turf war with the yellow tang but after about 1 day they stopped bothering each other. About 12h after introduction in the QT, the new tang showed 1 or 2 small white spots, I was not sure if it was ich or just some mucus. Those went away the 3 day. As said everything was well so thinking it was ich on day 5 I decided to go with the original plan and start copper.
<At least now there is a rationale for doing so.>
I added Cupramine as per manufacture instruction and I tested a level at 0.3 ppm. The following day all 3 fish were acting stressed. The new tang coloration faded and was looking more stressed than the other fish. I tested the water and I had a spike in ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Ammonia was at 0.5 ppm, nitrite at 0.5 ppm and nitrate at 10 ppm.
<Killed the biological filter.>
I went ahead and did a 50% water change with aged SW I prepared few days prior just in case.
<Excellent planning ahead on your part.>
The following day I still had some ammonia (0.2) much less nitrite (0.1) and almost no copper. The older fish seem to have recovered to their normal. The PB tang is regaining its coloration, is swimming more actively and runs to feed and eat really well whereas barely feed the previous day.
<An encouraging sign..
I did another 30% water change today and things are looking better.
<Good.>
I believe the copper has killed the nitrifying bacteria and this is the reason for the spikes in ammonia, NO2 and NO3.
<You are correct.>
The question is how do I proceed from here? I was planning to give the fish some time to recover from this insult.
<You have another, more expensive, but less stressful option - quinine>
Do water changes to keep water condition as pristine as I can. I am concerned though that as I re dose copper the situation is going to deteriorate again. I am also not sure if the PBT is also particularly sensitive to copper.
<No more than other tangs, but add copper on top of stress.>
I really would like to go through the planned copper treatment. I do not want to risk bringing ich to the new tank.
<Again, this is an opportunity to use quinine. You can read about its application here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm There is also a link to an online retailer that sells it. You want Quinine Sulfate.>
Sorry for the long post, I would really appreciate some help here.
<Since you now have ich, you do have to treat. I am a big fan of Quinine - It is more expensive, but it is much less stressful than copper.>
PS. One more question about the old live rocks. They are beautiful rocks and I would like to be able to use them on the new set-up, however since the old rocks were once covered with Cyano and hair algae, I am afraid to bring those scourges to the new tank. Now they are looking clean. Is there a way to "de contaminate" them so that they can be reused?
<Quinine works well here as well, will kill Cyano.>.
Thanks Again
<My pleasure. I would like to take a moment and commend you on your practices. Everything you have done thus far has been 'by the book'>
Claudio
<MikeV>

Re: Copper and quarantine tank: A textbook opportunity to use Quinine. 8/25/2009
<Hi Caludio>
Thank You Mike for the answer.
<My pleasure.>
I bought Quinine Sulfate and I'll try it as soon as it arrives.
<Excellent, I think you will be happy with the results.>
In the meantime hopefully the fish will fully recover and the biological filter will get reestablished.
<It will - you can add a good piece of live rock to the system to help it along.>
I read the FAQ on quinine sulfate and there are different recommended regimens.
<Yes.>
The prevalent one seems to be 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons, repeat in 3 days with a 25% water change in the interim, repeat 3 times (9 day treatment) then keep the fish in quarantine for the remaining time to 4 weeks. While treating, no skimmer, no carbon, only ambient light. Is this the plan you recommend or do you suggest anything different?
<This is the method that has met with the most success and the one I would use.>
Thanks
<As always, my pleasure. Do write back and let us know how it all works out. We are really trying to increase our 'library' on quinine.>
Claudio
<MikeV>

disease help... Retail, whlse, competence    7/23/09
Hello
<Salud>
I brought in an Asfur angel, an Imperator, two Copperbanded Butterfly, part of the initial order for our new store from one of the "top" LA wholesalers.
<... Okay...>
They were put into 3 separate 30 gallon quarantine systems. Within 48 hours the two angels and one copper developed Lymphocystis. The Imperator additionally showed what I thought at the time was several spots of Crypto in the same pectoral fin displaying the Lymphocystis.
One butterfly also showed a few spots, as well as the Asfur. Everybody was given copper (Cupramine following manufactures dosage level checked daily with Salifert kit) A week later, no response to copper as far as the spots,
<So... what had you learned?>
and I noticed that after two weeks all the original spots are intact. None seem to rupture. Now yesterday The second butterfly literally from one hour to the next showed a raised patch of scales and heavy breathing.
<Copper poisoning, plus stress, equals...?>
The patch began to show redness and I moved him to a smaller hospital tank with copper and added Kanamycin sulfate, a couple of hours later he was gone. The other fish all behave normally and eat well but with no improvement in the spots. I do not have a microspore available right now or I would sample to
the spots to confirm crypto. Is it possible that it is not crypto? Should I try quinine sulfate?
<Not at all likely Cryptocaryon... and why would you use a Quinine?>
Any Ideas?
<All sorts>
I have been miserable with the fish I have received. Until recently I only used trans shippers and have always been aggressive with treating diseases with tremendous success. Because it is a new store we felt
we could get a more complete cross section of fish by using a good wholesaler and we did our research,
<Mmm, not obvious from this email... I would NOT treat large angels or Chelmons with chelated copper... I WOULD have dipped/bathed all new/incoming fishes... per the protocols listed on WWM>
but now the number of losses and the difficulty in treatment is very upsetting. I even confronted them with
the fact that at least one fish was shipped with visible parasites. No actual response.
<Let's not banter about here. Please name the companies involved>
Any help will certainly be appreciated. We take the survival of the fish very seriously, and although we are a new store, I have been doing aquariums including reefs since the mid 80.s
Thanks
Gabriel
<Gabe... do state whether you'd like your business, the wholesaler not to be named. Bob Fenner>

Re: disease help... SW, crypt f'?   7/24/09
Hi Bob
Thank you for replying, as for the store we are aquarium encounters, In New York. The fish are from SDC, they are certainly great people and I know Eric is an especially nice guy and very knowledgeable but I also know they are huge and things can get past. I don't want to get into any problems with them but I need to know what to do in the future as far as disease, Quarantine etc. As far as fresh water bath/dip I always do that for every fish these included.
<My input re SOP for fish and invert. groups is posted, has occurred in periodicals and books for decades>
As far as the quinine sulfate that was the suggestion of national Fish Pharmacy. The truth is I had run into crypto like diseases years ago that did not respond to Cu and I was very successful with Quinacrine hydrochloride (ala Dr. Edward Kingsford).
<Yowzah! We do go back a fair piece. I am also a huge fan of Quinine compounds for protozoan complaints>
Right now this whole project (opening the store) has drained me physically and mentally, and Oh yeah monetarily.
<I do understand this... Steady on>
I Have three partners who financed most of it, but I did everything from scratch myself from woodworking to acrylic and all design, engineering you name it. We had several delays and have had to by several month rent without opening , more pressure. We are trying to open within a week and everyone who has come in has loved it. It looks more like a small public aquarium than a typical fish store. I have right now about 120 aquariums running with close to half salt water, we also have a hands on science discovery center which we are finishing up.
<Nice>
I am embarrassed right now to admit that my background is in marine science and my independent research during my undergraduate work was in marine fish parasitology and I teach college Bio.
<... why embarrassed?>
I expected the answers you gave me, so if I know what I am doing, why am I having all these problems and making stupid mistakes?
<Really... does happen>
Maybe I am just plain exhausted from 10 -14 hour days in the store while keeping up with my "real job" I am also under tremendous pressure from my partners and I don't have the luxury of being scientific about things with them breathing on me.
My microscope should be here shortly as well as my other lab stuff and I hope to get back on track.
Why am I telling you this?
<Because we are human... is there more?>
I respect your opinion and advice, and I have no one to vent to, that knows a drop about what I am doing or going through.
Thank you for your time. I let you know what happens with the fish, I hope to have the opportunity to meet you.
Gabriel
<We shall meet. BobF>

Re: disease help, SW, comm., Protozoan  7/26/2009
Hello
I have my lab equipment, the fish I first wrote you about definitely have crypto, as well as some other yet unidentified ecto parasite embed in the fins. Slightly larger cysts slightly more translucent than crypto.
In the meanwhile, three more butterfly fish as well as a lemon peel a chevron tang and an arc eyed hawk all have definite crypto. Now that I a whole central system infected, what do you recommend, according to
national fish pharm.
I should treat the whole system with quinine sulfate,
<This or Quinacrine Hydrochloride would be my choice>
I do not want to use any copper if possible, and in truth the copper as I wrote earlier did not work as yet, except to kill the Copperbanded butterfly.
Please any help is greatly appreciated, I refuse to become one of the stores hose goal is to sell fish quick before they die, or just make them someone else's problem
Gabriel
<Do try either Quinine cpd. Gabriel... System-wide... Do you have Ed Noga's book handy? BobF>

Re: disease help some additional info to the email just sent 7/26/2009
Hello again
I forgot to mention all the fish that I found to be infected were given dips, I also have to add a Kole tang and declivis butterfly to the list.
They are all on one central system but in different aquariums Help!
Gabriel
<Could well be that the Protozoans were too far embedded to be excised by dip/baths... Does happen. BobF>

Re: disease help some additional info to the email just sent, Crypt., Quinine  – 07/28/09
Bob,
Thank you for the help, I treated the whole system with the quinine sulfate, as I did not want the water in the stock tanks to turn yellow and I also believe that it is less light sensitive. One question, I have a piece of
base or live rock in almost every tank, I removed most but left some pieces to see what would happen, I assumed the quinine would wipe out the rock, so far after 24 hrs the coralline algae is losing its color, but the worms and large amphipods are wriggling and swimming about on and under the rock. I thought they would go first.
<Mmm, no... Quinines mainly affect Protozoans...>
If they should have, could it be the med. is under dosed or otherwise ineffective?
<Other biota will reduce the effectiveness, or put another way, more medicant will have to be added to have physiological effect if there is more biomass/metabolic interaction>
So far all the fish seem to be doing well with exception of a Kole tang who is re-infested 48 hrs after a dip, and 24 hrs after adding the med. I am following the dosage recommended by National Fish Pharm.
Gabriel
<I'd stay with their protocol. BobF>

Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/30/09
Please help.
<Ryan, I would like to apologize (Sara, post or don't post this, I don't care). There are a few in the "Crew" that just let queries rot in their boxes.  Something such as fish disease and treatment are very time sensitive. I again apologize for the slow response here.>
I got my Quinine Sulfate in the mail today as you suggested. I bought "Crypt-Pro" but I see that nationalfishpharm has a couple different directions how to dose/treat the tank. What have you found to be successful? On their website is says to dose 1/4 tsp per 10-gallons one time and then leave it be for 5-7 days.
<No.>
On the jar itself, it says to dose 1/8 tsp everyday and do 25% water change every day too.
<This is what I would follow.>
When I called them on the phone they said add 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and leave in tank for 5-7 days with no water changes.
<Dang, nothing like consistency!>
Everywhere I look they have a different treatment plan. What way do you think is best? Thanks.
<I would follow the directions on the label. There are a few problems here. First is how "concentrated" the actual powder is. I cannot speak for this particular product. The next problem is there are no reasonable test kits available to aquarist for testing the levels of this medication, but this is the case with many other treatments too. The third issue is the compound does degrade, particularly photosensitive. Basically dosing what the bottle says is going to give you the most effective shot with this treatment. You will constantly be dosing to replace what is used or degraded, while doing water changes to keep the level in check should it build up. Do be sure to have no substrate/rock in the system, it will adsorb the quinine sulfate to a point. And of course, no carbon or chemical filtration. Best of luck, Scott V.>

Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/31/09
Scott,
Thank you very much for the reply.
<Very welcome.>
Apology accepted, normally you guys are extremely fast at responding. And I couldn't be too upset even if you didn't respond because you have offered me plenty of free advice in the past.
<Thank you.>
Ok, I will do as you and the label says, 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and 25% daily water change. If the quinine sulfate is photo-sensitive maybe I should keep the lights on just a couple hours a day or so??
<At most, I would likely rely on the ambient lighting in the room, turn the lights on only when you want to inspect the fish.>
I am in the process of switching my salt over from natural seawater to Tropic Marin Pro Reef in my 180-gallon tank. I guess on the bright side of these daily 25% water changes in my hospital tank is that if I take 5-gallons of natural seawater out of my display tank and put that 5-gallons into my QT daily, it will give my display a quicker switch to the tropic Marin pr and my coral should appreciate that.
<A good idea.>
Do you know if Quinine Sulfate is safe to use with Amquel+ or any ammonia/nitrite neutralizer?
<I really do not know, a good question. The manufacturer does warn it will interfere with many medications, but the quinine sulfate is not listed.
But it is not a "mainstream" med per se either. I am going to put this back into the general crew folder for input from somebody that may know the answer.>
Although I had a hard cycle in my QT which took about 7-weeks, I am registering .25 ammonia in the QT because the bio load is big for a 20-gallon QT. I know you can't use Amquel+ with copper, I sure hope it is ok with Quinine Sulfate otherwise I may have to do hyposalinity which will be an even bigger pain in the butt. If this Quinine Sulfate I purchased works, I plan on doing it prophylactic-ly on every new fish for the 5-7 day period. I had to tear my reef apart (I don't want to do this ever again) to catch my 4" powder brown tang.
<No fun!>
The 2 x 2" clownfish were easy to catch and the 4" hippo tang wasn't too hard. All of them in a 20-gallon is pushing the limits.
<Wow, yes. Do think about even investing in a second quarantine tank or just some sort of cheap holding vessel.>
Daily pwc and Amquel+ may be the only way to keep them alive. One more question please. What do you think the chances of getting crypt from coral frags is after doing a typical coral dip in Revive and putting into display?
<Very little in an otherwise healthy system.>
Thanks again
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/31/09
Scott,
Thank you very much for the reply.
<Very welcome.>
Apology accepted, normally you guys are extremely fast at responding. And I couldn't be too upset even if you didn't respond because you have offered me plenty of free advice in the past.
<Thank you.>
Ok, I will do as you and the label says, 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and 25% daily water change. If the quinine sulfate is photo-sensitive maybe I should keep the lights on just a couple hours a day or so??
<At most, I would likely rely on the ambient lighting in the room, turn the lights on only when you want to inspect the fish.>
I am in the process of switching my salt over from natural seawater to Tropic Marin Pro Reef in my 180-gallon tank. I guess on the bright side of these daily 25% water changes in my hospital tank is that if I take
5-gallons of natural seawater out of my display tank and put that 5-gallons into my QT daily, it will give my display a quicker switch to the tropic Marin pr and my coral should appreciate that.
<A good idea.>
Do you know if Quinine Sulfate is safe to use with Amquel+ or any ammonia/nitrite neutralizer?
<I really do not know, a good question. The manufacturer does warn it will interfere with many medications, but the quinine sulfate is not listed.
But it is not a "mainstream" med per se either. I am going to put this back into the general crew folder for input from somebody that may know the answer.>
Although I had a hard cycle in my QT which took about 7-weeks, I am registering .25 ammonia in the QT because the bio load is big for a 20-gallon QT. I know you can't use Amquel+ with copper, I sure hope it is
ok with Quinine Sulfate otherwise I may have to do hyposalinity which will be an even bigger pain in the butt. If this Quinine Sulfate I purchased works, I plan on doing it prophylactically on every new fish for the 5-7 day period. I had to tear my reef apart (I don't want to do this ever again) to catch my 4" powder brown tang.
<No fun!>
The 2 x 2" clownfish were easy to catch and the 4" hippo tang wasn't too hard. All of them in a 20-gallon is pushing the limits.
<Wow, yes. Do think about even investing in a second quarantine tank or just some sort of cheap holding vessel.>
Daily pwc and Amquel+ may be the only way to keep them alive. One more question please. What do you think the chances of getting crypt from coral frags is after doing a typical coral dip in Revive and putting into
display?
<Very little in an otherwise healthy system.>
Thanks again
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Quinine..sulfate or phosphate???  5/11/09
Mr. Fenner,
Thanks for the response. I read the link you listed above which had lots of good info. My main confusion is why do you recommend CP over QS?
Thanks again.
<Is more "broad spectrum"... treats more "things" more effectively. BobF>

Quinine..sulfate or phosphate??? 5/11/09
Hi Crew,
<Simon>
For the poster to this query today there is a couple of very cheap sources here in the UK - I don't know if that is it useful to them or not:
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_
1_3474.html
http://www.pills2u.co.uk/5188/-AVLOCLOR-Tablets.html?referrer=froogle&utm_so
urce=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=pid5188to
Thanks to all!!!
Simon Trippick
<Thank you for this valuable input. For folks looking in the U.S., fishy pharmacy: http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/symptoms.html
is a ready source. Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank   5/7/09
Hi Bob and Crew -
<Kevin>
I spend at least 8-10 hours per week reading on your site and absolutely love and appreciate all of the great advice. I have only been in the hobby for about 6 months and already have a 300 Gallon Reef, a 60 Gallon FOWLR, and a 34 Gallon Species with a Carpet Anemone and one False Percula. You helped me identify a Nudibranch about a month ago and I have since invested in another 30 gallon tank for quarantine and treatment.
However, like many of your readers, I was devastatingly delinquent in adding the quarantine tank. So, today I write you regarding my 300 Gallon Reef System. I have spend many hours reading on your site about Crypto and other parasites and have recently added a Powder Blue Tang from my 60 Gallon to the 300 Gallon reef system. A week later, I lost my Puffer and Volitans Lion in the 60 gallon tank to Ich. Now, the Powder Blue Tang is showing signs of Ich and has evidently spread the love. My 5" Foxface Lo is also exhibiting signs of 'Black Ich'.
<This, as you likely are aware, is not "that" deleterious>
I know that the drill is to capture and treat all of the fish. This is not possible in this tank. Even if I were to remove all the rock, many of the fishes would hide in the substrate,
<Mmm, they can be sand-sifted out>
etc. However, last night I ran across a post where I inferred that treating the display tank is better than nothing at all. I am afraid that this will be my only option. So, my plan is as follows:
1) Remove all of my Coral and place in a large quarantine tank2) I have ordered Chloroquine Phosphate based on recommendation by WWM and the book "The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook" This is truly the least lethal medication for the fish and the best for a display, right?
<Currently likely the most useful for Protozoans, including Amyloodinium>
3) I will remove as many of my snails and crabs as possible<Mmm... this antimalarial (Aralen) is quite toxic to a range of invertebrates... and there are, assuredly, a huge mix of these in and about your rock, substrate... These may be killed (along with any algae), resulting in a toxic cascade effect... Again, it would be much BETTER to remove the fishes, treat them elsewhere>
4) I will treat the display tank for 10 days with 40mg per gallon of Chloroquine Phosphate
My question is, at the end of this treatment, assuming all of the fish look fine:
1) How long do I wait to add the coral and inverts back
<Three weeks or so>
2) Do I change 50% water and add charcoal to rid the Chloroquine? Is this sufficient?
<Activated carbon and Polyfilter should do it>
3) I believe that I have read in several places that the necessary bacteria should not be affected by this treatment, is this still your experience?
<Yes... however... the above reference...>
Is there anything that I have overlooked that may cause me problems either immediately; or, long term?
<Turn off your skimmer, and UV, remove any other chemical filtrants...>
Thank you very much for all of your help!
- Kevin
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
[Fwd: Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank]
I left out my water parameters, etc:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate less than 5
SG 1.027
PH 8.3
<These are fine. I'd like to add the possibility of your delivering the CP via foods... One formula calls for 3.7 grams of CP dissolved in a gel powder mix of 300 grams... this mixed with water, foods... less toxic to
non-targeted "other" life. BobF>

Crypt help!!!! 3-26-09
Hi guys,
<Evening>
Love the website...I use it lots.
<It is superb...so do I>
Unfortunately, this time I have a question that I need a little more help with. I have a boxfish (Ostracion cubicus) with a really bad case of crypt....(I think).
<A better diagnosis than "I think" would be helpful>
I've had him for about 6 months and he's always been really healthy and happy.
<Good to hear, not an easy species to keep. I have an O. cubicus myself>
About a week ago, I went down to feed him, and found him absolutely covered in little white bumps. I've read all of the remedies for crypt on your site, but my problem is that I can't really use any of them because I also have a banded bamboo shark, a porcupine puffer, a spotted puffer, and a hermit crab in the tank.
<I also have a bamboo shark, cute when they're little, but fast growers and they need a big tank!>
I know that if he gets stressed he can release a deadly toxin, which is why I am unsure about moving him into a quarantine tank.
<All the more reason to do so>
I have noticed a couple spots on the puffers, but they aren't nearly as bad. I've been treating the tank with Ich cure for a few days, but he just seems to be getting worse.
<What are the ingredients in "ich cure"? I recommend ceasing treatment and performing a large (50% +) water change>
I've also been adding some garlic in with his food, but that doesn't seem to be helping either.
<Garlic isn't a cure for anything>
He's still happy, and eating great, he just looks terrible all covered in bumps. I guess my question is Do I risk moving him into a QT tank, or is there some other treatment that is safe for the shark and the puffers? Any help you could give me would be appreciated... I'm getting worried about the little guy.
<I'm not sure how big your shark, puffers, and boxfish are, but treatment in a QT tank is always recommended. If this is not feasible (water quality could definitely be an issue here) then your only option will be to treat the entire display tank. Your "miracle cure" in either case is going to be the medication quinine sulfate, available from www.nationalfishpharm.com.
At the risk of sounding like a salesperson (I'm not, just a fan!), this is the most effective crypt medication I've ever used, and is safe with puffers and sharks. Order it, pay extra for overnight shipping, and treat asap. Quinine sulfate is toxic to molluscs, and other invertebrates to a lesser extent>
Thanks in advance!!
<Anytime>
Quinn
<M. Maddox>

Crypt help!!!! Part II 4-10-09
Hello again,
<Evening - sorry about the slow reply>
So I ordered the "miracle cure", and began treating the tank.
<I'm not sure I would call Quinine Sulfate a 'miracle cure', but it is very effective>
Its been 3 days and the problem only seems to be getting worse. The boxfish is so covered in white bumps that you can barely see his skin anymore.
<Time for a freshwater dip>
My porcupine puffer has also taken a turn for the worst. I noticed after I added the quinine sulfate that her eyes got all cloudy and she was bumping into things.
<Possible a secondary bacterial infection>
She also stopped eating.
<Common in ill puffers>
Today, her eyes are completely white, and she is laying on the bottom, breathing really hard. I have a feeling she isn't going to make it much longer.
<You should definitely move both of the fish into QT and treat with broad spectrum antibiotics in addition to the QS>
I have a hospital tank, but it is currently housing a panther grouper.
<Time for a second QT!>
I'm not sure what to do now....do I continue the treatments and water changes with the quinine sulfate, or do I set up a new hospital tank, wait for it to cycle, and move them all into there?
<The waste products can be negated with Amquel+ or Prime, this isn't the time to be worrying about anything except getting the fish into a treatment tank>
I have been using a UV sterilizer (I turned it off when treating with quinine sulfate as per the instructions on the bottle), but that doesn't seem to have helped either.
<Flow rate through the sterilizer?>
The shark and the dogface puffer still seem unaffected, but I feel uneasy about leaving them in a tank that is so sick. I've done a whole range of water tests and nothing is out of range, I don't know what to do next.... please help!!!!!
<Move all fish into a QT tank, treat with quinine and antibiotics, and leave your main tank fallow (fish-less) for at least 5 weeks>
Quinn
<Good luck! Mike Maddox>

Dosing instructions on Chloroquine Phosphate for ich??   2/16/08
Hi, Looked on your site and could not find the answer. I have a 200 gallon saltwater tank with lots of live rock, a few large angelfish and some other smaller fish (no corals). I have ich in my tank and want to try the Chloroquine Phosphate powder....finally found it on line at Fishchemical.com but don't know how to dose it. I would like to dose it
several times over a month so that it can kill all of the ich swimmers as they hatch.
<Mmm... really needs to be administered outside the display tank... to discount interaction with other materials>
Found a dose in a book that was a one time only of 5 to 10 mg. per liter, but I need it to kill over an entire month to kill all the ich.
<A few protocols call for the dosage you mention, applied every three days for three treatments>
It seems to me that this would require multiple dosing as the medication may degrade in the system over time. I don't want to over dose and kill the fish, or under dose and not kill the ich. I plan to remove 2/3 of my sand
(with the sand worms), and as many of my snails and crabs as I can find, and my macro algae, and put them in a 40 gallon tank for 6 weeks to 2 months until all the medication is out of the system and the ich has died off in the removed sand.
<... this really won't work. Again, you need to remove, treat all fishes elsewhere>
How does one dose this medication? I will be getting it in two days and hope it will not be too late. I hope the powder has the milligrams listed per given quantity. I have a gram scale. Does anyone know if it kills coralline algae on the rocks? Would it be better to not put the snails and sand worms back in and just go snail-less and worm-less so that I can dose this medication anytime I have a problem. If I don't put any of the old sand and stuff back in there may not be a need for the snails as the algae would be all dead?? Thank you in advance for any advice, Lesley in Houston
<Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage   2/13/09
I acquired a Kole recently, and put him into quarantine where I've noticed two relatively small white patches on him.
About one month ago after reading Bob Fenner's writings here, I acquired some Chloroquine phosphate from a Canadian pharmaceutical company. It came in 250 mg tablets.
My question is how to go about trading him. The fish is in a 10 gallon quarantine tank with a seeded filter, but I know that frequent water changes will be necessary. Specifically, how do we administer the does which I believe is 10 mg/liter (380 mg/10 gallon tank)?
<You could "grind up" the tablet/s... with a pill crusher... or have a pharmacist do this for you (grind, weigh)... "guess"/measure as to about the right amount otherwise>
This drug is not like copper. We have no way of testing its level. As we will need to do water changes from time to time, how can we be sure that the level is correct?
<One can only "guess-timate" presently. There is a broad range of efficacy, safety>
Your advice will be greatly appreciated as we would very much like to save this fish.
Thank you,
Jeffrey Castaldo
<And re the "patches" period... I would not likely treat for this/these... better to dip/bath and place this Ctenochaetus in your main display. Bob Fenner>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09
Based upon a dosage of 10 mg per 1 L, which is what I have read here, 380 mg (1.5 tablets) would be correct, and easy enough to attain accurately with a pill cutter.
<We are in agreement>
However, having just acquired this fish, I am curious as to why you recommend to just dip/bath the fish and place it into my main display tank without the usual 30 day quarantine I usually adhere to, and what is normally stressed here on WWW.
<This genus is "touchier" than "average"... and that you state you have only a ten gallon to quarantine it in... My high confidence opinion is that there is much less likelihood to be transmittal of pests, parasites (excluded through preventative bath) than subsequent damage to this specimen in a months isolation there>
Without a photograph, are you able to give me some insight as to what those patches are?
<Mmm, only guesses in either case. I have collected Combtooth tangs in a few countries, though primarily in HI... these are often hand-damaged through moving from hand netting (off a barrier, mist net) to collecting/decomp. buckets... and later processing... Often what one sees here are actual "fingerprints" on the fishes' sides...>
And when you recommend a dip/bath, are you referring to plain buffered (8.4) freshwater, with Methylene blue, Formalin, or?
<I am referring to all of these possible protocols. I would use pH adjusted  FW, some MB and Formalin... the last with heavy aeration>
Also, I am still uncertain as how to go about keeping the dose therapeutic when I need to make frequent water changes. I suppose I could use Prime, but I am uncertain as to how to incorporate that into the treatment.
<A good question. I don't know either. Maybe ask the folks at FishVet (.com)>
I am sending this follow-up because I do not fully understand, and want to administer the proper treatment.
Thank you very much for your assistance.
Jeffrey Castaldo
<A pleasure to conspire with you, BobF>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09
Thank you for clarifying this to me, and for your excellent advice and honesty. I realize that there is no clear-cut solution for all situations; many times we must learn through trial and error.
Best regards,
Jeffrey Castaldo
<Ah, yes... am doing my best to share, warn folks of my too-many errors... so they can avoid these trials. Cheers! BobF>

Urgent Quarantine... Quinine f'  1/24/09
Hello Crew,
<Kayla>
A few days ago, I placed my marine fish in quarantine because a few were displaying signs of ich. I have a Valentini puffer, six-line wrasse, "powder brown"/white-cheek tang, hippo tang, and two percula clowns. After much research, I decided to perform a freshwater dip with formalin/malachite green and place into a 30 gallon quarantine with hyposalinity (1.010) and 10 mg/L of Chloroquine phosphate.
<Okay>
The first day went fine, but the second day the water became quite cloudy. I have been testing the water qualities and have 0 ppm of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, with a pH of 8.3. Today, I found the wrasse laying on the tank bottom respirating very rapidly. Again, the ammonia (etc.) levels were all in check. A few hours later, the powder brown was doing the same thing, with very rapid respiration. So, I immediately did a 50% water change (with Chloroquine), but then decided to put in a carbon filter in case the Chloroquine was the cause of their problems.
<Good moves... I'd also add more aeration>
I fear I will lose these guys. I am not sure what could be wrong; do you have any ideas?
<Mmm... some sort of proliferation of microbes... perhaps a chemical interaction with the water, and?>
Have you had experience with Chloroquine causing this?
<I have not>
Do you have any suggestions of what I can do quickly to save them?
<Not quickly, no. But doing what you have... water changes, adding carbon... should... and I would look instead to restoring near NSW spg and using a copper cpd. here... chelated...>
I cannot move them back into the display tank very fast since the specific gravity is significantly better.
Thanks in advance for your advice,
Kayla
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Re: puffer/lionfish with ick : (    1/21/09
I read the article you asked me and many more. The treatment is working and all ich appears to be gone.
<Ahh!>
The directions on the quinine sulfate bottle are not that clear. they say to ad .25 tsp for every ten gallons, once every three days with a 25% water change in-between treatments. Then it says 3 consecutive treatments is equal to a 9 day continual bath. then it goes on to the warning statements.
my question is what do i do after a 9 day continual bath? Do i stop treatment and see if any ich appear?
<Mmm, yes>
Or do i keep treating?
<I would cease after the three exposures>
Also the puffer is still not eating. He will chase the food around and attempt to bite it but then just let is go.
<Not to worry...>
Are spiny burrfish (spiny box puffer via liveaquaria.com) especially hard to get eating?
<Sometimes, yes... and go on feeding strikes at times for no apparent reason... Which you'd know had you searched on WWM, read before writing...>
What are your suggestions on the Quinine Sulfate and the puffers "eating problems"
thanks for all the help/info, you guys have helped me save some very beloved fish,
Mike
<Please... I've already referred you to where to educate yourself... Do go there. B>

Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s  12/29/08
Hi WWM Crew,
<Greg>
Like so many other marine aquarists, I am having a terrible time dealing with ich.
<Ah, yes... a scourge. Likely one of the chief reasons folks give up on the hobby... An issue/factor that's been with "us" as long as the hobby has...
And one that I tried repeatedly (and haven't given up) addressing the trade re... See my letter archived here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/ltrquartrdbiz.htm>
I first got the infestation in my 400 gallon, mostly FOWLR (I do have a couple of shrimp, urchins, and an anemone), display tank back in July of this year. I initially tried dealing with it by feeding food soaked in Selcon/Garlic but things progressed to the point where I decided to treat with Cupramine in a hospital tank.
<No fun for sure>
I acquired a used 240 gallon acrylic tank and treated my fish for 28 days with Cupramine which cured the ich. I then kept my fish for another 4 weeks in the hospital tank so that my display remained fallow for a total of 8 weeks. Getting all my fish into the hospital tank was a huge undertaking and included draining my display and removing 525 lbs of live rock in order to catch the fish.
<Ugghh!>
My fish finally went back into the display tank at the end of October.
Things initially looked good for 2-3 weeks when, to my surprise, the ich returned. In the interim, I gave away the hospital tank thinking that, with my 60 gallon quarantine tank I would never need such a large tank for treatment again. At this point I am very frustrated. I have thousands of dollars worth of very rare, expensive fish including a prized Conspicuous Angel with Cryptocaryon. The fish are actually all eating well/behaving normally, but they definitely have the disease.
At this point, having tried the copper/fallow approach I am ready to treat my entire display tank, liverock included. Initially, I was thinking of Cupramine but I am aware it would be nearly impossible to get a therapeutic concentration with all of the live rock.
<Correct... I would not do this... use copper of any sort here>
Also, I would like to be able to return the inverts to the tank after treatment.
I have been reading about Quinine Sulphate available from National Fish Pharmacy on your website. I have several questions pertaining to its use that I have not found answers for. Is it absorbed by the live rock?
<To a minor extent, yes>
Will I be able to keep inverts in the tank again after its use and removal with carbon/Poly filters?
<Mmm... possibly... both this (QS) and Chloroquine Phosphate (CP) are toxic to some algae, invertebrate groups, along with Protists... really can't be used/recommended for application in a "reef" system>
Can I expect a huge ammonia spike from die off from the live rock?
<Is possible, yes>
(mine is actually quite bare from being continually pecked at by angels/puffers/triggers so I am not really sure how "live" it is). Will it wipe out my biological filter leaving me with an uncycled tank?
<Not likely here>
My case is a little unique in that my live rock is worth significantly less than my livestock. I am willing to sacrifice it if I can rid my display of this disease.
Thank you very much for your time.
Greg Cohen
<I do wish I had better "news"... there are probiotics, "vaccines" sold for Cryptocaryon... but not in the U.S. as yet... I would try reducing Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOCs) through the use of Ozone here (steady, high RedOx really is a very good adjunct to boosting immune systems approaches)... this may shift the balance here to your advantage. I do hope your fishes rally...
Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s  12/30/08
Bob,
<Tom, thanks much for chiming in... I/we do delete folks emails, including their addresses daily... but I do hope the querior sees your input>
Thought I might respond to this since I have a lot of 'experience' dealing with the Quinine, and to answer some of his questions: It definitely is toxic to invertebrates other than hermit crabs. It kills snails in a matter of hours if not minutes. It can be removed with a skimmer, Polyfilter and water changes and inverts can be returned to the tank after these measures are taken. It does not cause a sizable spike in ammonia, as it does not seem to harm the biological filter. or at least has not in my usage of it. Oddly enough, it will completely destroy Cyanobacteria with one dose.
The problem is, I'm not sure how effective it is on this mega strain of Ich.
It can control it, but I have not been able to eradicate it. I ended up disposing of my Atlantic Blue Tang because he seemed to be a 'carrier' of sorts, meaning after the medication is removed he contracted ich again every time. My other fish, that being the Passer Angel, Yellow Tang, and Lunare Wrasse (Oh, and Lawnmower Blenny) are all resistant, so it would seem. I had the same issue as this guy, in that to set up a hospital tank in order to allow the main system to 'fallow' was quite impractical due to the size requirements. I feel his pain.
<Me too>
The question I have now is, and Bob, it would pretty much be your opinion, is that I want to introduce a few more fish to the tank once we are settled.
What species or genus maybe do you feel are most resistant to ich?
<There are a few groups, species that tend toward either end of the spectrum here>
The Atlantic Blues are definitely not. and I don't think I want to go with another tang anyhow. Surely there are some types of fish that are more resistant. I'm thinking now it's not a matter of choice for me, but more of what can be considered an option.
<... Mmm, please do see the list (of families of fishes) listed in particular at the Cryptocaryon area... these are the more sensitive/potential carriers, "hard to cures"... at the other end of the spectrum...Triggers are tough, basses by and large...>
I'm currently in the process of skimming out the Quinine and doing some partials. After a week or so I'm going to reintroduce my QT'd live rock and stars, snails, hermits, pods, etc. After a week or so of observation, I will have the 20 gallon available for a QT tank. I do not know, though, if I have eliminated the ick because I removed the fish that could not resist it (while continuing the treatment) or whether I've got ick still in the tank. I feel as if it's still there, and if that's the case, I'd like an opinion as to fish with the best possible chance of resistance.
This has been a very trying experience, and I wish him the best of luck.
Thomas
<Again, much thanks. BobF>

Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 12/27/08
Bob:
Thank you very much for your prompt response and advise, including a reply on Xmas day - now that is absolute dedication that all of us WWM users can't thank you enough for providing such wonderful "service".
<Welcome James>
I did see this Chloroquine Phosphate treatment protocol on WWM 4+ weeks ago when I first started researching how to go about dealing with my sick fish. And I even tried to get my hands on some of this stuff, but I kept running into websites that required prescriptions.... So I decided to go the tried and true route of copper, but now appreciate that I need to try this new method. This morning, I was able to find a website that will send Chlor Phos without an Rx - the URL for this site is as follows:
http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s33577-s-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE.aspx
<Thank you very much for this>
They charge approx $85 inclusive of shipping for qty 100; 500mg tablets (or 50 grams).
<Yeeikes! And oh my! This is a BUNCH of material>
I will execute the suggested protocol of 20mg/l (or 3,780 mg for 50 gallons) on day 1, followed by 50% water change 7 days later and redose of 10mg/l (or 1,890 mg/50G) repeated 2 more times after that (a total of 4 dosings). I also understand the lighting should be kept off for the entire 1 month of treatment.
<Yes... thank you for this as well. Fellow WWM Crewmember ScottV is visiting and we were just talking about the photosensitivity of this compound>
Should I at least keep a ceiling light turned on for 10-12 hrs per day?
<I would, yes>
I will certainly let you know how effective this treatment was for me in approx 7 weeks (it takes up to 3 weeks for the CP tablets to be sent, since they are coming from a pharmacy in India).
<I see...>
In the meantime (3 weeks or so till dosing begins), beyond good husbandry of constant water changes (with siphoning bare bottom) and smart feedings (with Selcon and / or Garlic), is there anything I need to do, to give these guys the best chance of survival?
<Mmm... I would not change anything here really>
They do not appear to be "sick" beyond the obvious exterior visual signs of parasites. Meaning, they are all eating vigorously, they are not going to the surface, they are not breathing rapidly, or swimming erratically (beyond occasional attempts to scratch themselves on PVC), etc. The only one I am a bit concerned about is the PB Tang - his tail seems to be regenerating, but is still missing a good 20% of volume. I am attaching a picture (this time Maxijet 1200 with venturi attachment turned off, so air bubbles not present in pix).
Lastly - I appreciate the use of CP to treat Ich seems to be a fairly new practice, and therefore there may still be some unknowns, including long term affects, etc, but I was hoping you may have input to this question: can CP be used for incoming stock in QT as a prophylactic measure?
<Mmm, I don't know this, or much else re CP either... I want to be clear, honest... as always... and state that I have no (zip, zero) experience with this material... And my current gung-ho attitude may be misleading others... I had just read some accounts, including in the new disease tome by Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo... and am hopeful... The cpd. is tried and true in terms of efficacy with humans...>
For guys like me that clearly can't distinguish the tell tale signs of Ich (even after 4+ wks of QT on all incoming stock) would the use of this medication possibly help avoid a future infestation of MDT? As I am sure you can personally appreciate, and have heard a 1000 times over from your dedicated readers, no one wants to ever have to battle something like this more than once......
Thanks again for your time, experience, passion and dedication to helping your fellow aquarists! Sincerely,
Jim
<Again, my ongoing thanks to you Jim... please do relate your further experiences here. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis?   1/11/09
Bob - hotmail appears to be garbling this ethread pretty badly, but hopefully below is not needed to support this question as it only requires yes or no:
The Chloroquine Phosphate tablets arrived from the pharmacy in India yesterday. My question is - should I remove the carbon filled filter media from top filter during treatment?
<Yes>
I don't have a skimmer or any other form of filter (except 3 sponge filters) in this 50G hospital tank.
Thanks and I'll let you know how this works for me in 4 weeks.
<Thank you>
Jim
PS - I lost the power blue tang to this "super ich" strain a few days ago. The rest of them seem fine though. I started the "no light" part of this treatment a couple days ago, just to see how they would behave / react to feedings, etc. They seem very skittish with no light, but did eat all the food I put in (from bottom of tank as opposed to how they normally come right to feeding site at top of tank). Not sure how this lack of light will affect them for 1 month?
<As long as there is some outside light the fishes will be fine... there are meteorological events that make it very dark underwater, sometimes for weeks at a time, in the wild>
Sounds like many other hobbyists have done this previously, so I guess they will be fine.
<Yes. Steady on Jim. BobF>

Thomas Roach Ick Omnibus, formaldehyde, quinine f's -12/11/08
Hello Mr. Fenner and others,
<Thomas>
Thought I would give you an update on my situation, as I'm hoping you are still familiar with it? Mainly to serve as a warning to others and emphasize the dire need for quarantining livestock, because once you get this resistant strain of Ick in your tank it is not coming out with ease?
<Ah yes>
We moved a couple of weeks ago and of course the fish still had ick? I disposed of most of my sand bed to get to 1? or less for maintenance purposes, changed 100% of the water and still had the infestation. I treated it with a Formalin product similar to quick cure, which again reduced the ick while the treatment was ongoing, but with this strain WHAT FORMALIN BASED MEDS SEEM TO DO is allow the remaining ick to come back at much greater numbers and strength? why this is, I do not know but it has happened both times I have treated with the Formalin based products.
<A useful observation, note>
This treatment I have gone back to the Quinine Sulfate (by stock in Natl. Fish Pharm if they offer it, I'm funding the place :-) ), and I seem to be having better results completely by accident! In some foggy haze I quadrupled the original dose for this size tank somehow, and it seems as though it has proven to be more effective at a ridiculously high dose.
After a 3 day period I did NOT do a partial as recommended and treated at regular dosage, and after the 2nd 3 day period I treated at 1 ½ times the recommended dosage.
The fish, into day 8, show no signs of Ick, whereas they have in the past treatments. I'm not overly confident yet, but I'll post results as we go.
If other hobbyists had any clue what I am dealing with, there would never be an email to you regarding skipping quarantine, and I cant stress it enough to your readers how much misery it can cause.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for reports on this ongoing exercise. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick-  12/11/08
Thanks, Bob... let me restress how TOUGH this is... to me far worse than Oodinium simply because you cannot get rid of it. I have the salinity at 1.017,
<Has to be much lower... 1.012, perhaps under 1.010 to really mal-affect the Cryptocaryon... at this level... most of your fishes as well...>
temp at 82, and water full of meds and it is still resistant! QT all your fish!!!!! This makes African cichlids look mighty tempting again.
<Ah yes... or even Guinea Pigs!>
On a side note, Quinine is quite effective at destroying Cyanobacteria...
at least it had one pleasant result... gone with one dose.
Thomas Roach
<Silver linings... BobF>

Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08
Hi folks,
<Elsie.>
Well, it's been two weeks since I tried to do a 100% water change on the QT tank and I guess it didn't work because I think I see spots on the blue tang and the sailfin tang. So frustrating!
<Tis frustrating.>
Should I try the copper again for two weeks, or should I try hyposalinity?
Quick Cure?
<Do a Google search re Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the web. Just safer, less toxic, this is the stuff to use here. It can be hard to find, the "in the know" LFS now carry it, otherwise do call a vet or check the web. One source:
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.>
Thanks in advance
Elise
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08
Scott,
Thanks so much for your reply.
<Welcome.>
I have never heard of the stuff before.
<Many...most have not.>
I've been glued to my computer digesting all the FAQ's on the subject.
A couple of things I'm wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as opposed to quinine sulfate?
<They are completely different compounds.>
The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc.
<A pain, just one source.>
I will try calling some local vets.
<Some will know, others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too.
A quick explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.>
Will the stuff have any effect on biological filtration?
<Supposedly not, I do have my doubts, though have not quantified them.>
I read that person's post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50% percent change, dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks.
I am still combating ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to redose with each water change?
<Yes, prorated of course.>
Could get pricey, no?
<Comparative to other treatment and depending on the source it could, but it works!>
Thanks for your assistance, Scott, I'm very anxious to try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs suffer in the copper.
<They do.>
Elise
<Scott V.>

Re: Chloroquine Phosphate Use 11/20/08
Hello again Scott, I hope you won't mind me troubling you again with a couple more questions.
<Hello Elsie, not at all.>
I have ordered some Chloroquine phosphate from fishchemical.com.
<Great resource! Thank you for this.>
I am starting to get nervous about using a chemical I can't test for.
<I know the feeling, no practical method for the home aquarist.>
The only procedure that I've been able to find on how to use the stuff is the one described by a hobbyist on WWM's FAQ's: Start with double dose of 20mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L one last time. Is this what you would recommend, or would you do 10mg/L from the beginning, or a different procedure entirely?
<The basic procedure is fine, but I would start with the 10mg/L dose. I have heard of some using the 20mg/L initially, but the lower dosage is tried and true.>
Do I need to keep treatment going for a month?
<I would, is the recommended protocol.>
I think I will be doing water changes pretty frequently because of ammonia, I will have to carefully calculate how much CP to add, yes?
<Yes.>
If my math is right, I would want 757mg for my 20 gallon tank (20 gallons=75.7 liters, 10mg/L is 757), and if I did a 50% water change I would add 378mg. Do I have this right?
<Yes.>
Should I keep the aquarium light off during treatment?
<An important point I neglected to mention previously. This compound is photosensitive. Do leave any lights off.>
OK, this is more than a couple of questions (sorry), but after all the time, money, and energy I've put into saving these fish, I really don't want to make any fatal mistakes now.
<Understood.>
One last question (promise!) Is this medication is a good idea for any type of marine fish in need of treatment for crypt?
<I have never heard of nor read about any contradictions to use with fish.>
I thank you again, and my fish thank you as well!
Elise
<Welcome, do let us know how it goes. Scott V.>

Chloroquine Phosphate Source 10/28/08
Hi Crew,
<Matt.>
Thanks for all you do for the hobby! I have noticed recently on the 'dailies' that Bob is very excited about the prospects of Chloroquine phosphate as a treatment for Ich and the like. I was interested in finding out where this medication may be available for future reference, so I did a bit of googling (not sure that's a word lol) and found that it is the active ingredient in a medication named Avlocor (in the UK at least). Avlocor is an anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is obtainable without a prescription at the following link -
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_1_3474.html
-for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so how much would an effective dose be?
<It should work out fine. 10 mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can be had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the know" LFS keeping some on hand.>
Thanks for your hard work and commitment,
Matt.
<Welcome and thank you, Scott V.>
<BTW, thank you very much for sharing your finds. Scott V.>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate Source 10/29/08
Hi Scott,
<Hey there Matt.>
Thanks for the response. The cost of these tablets is £1.89 (~$3.10) for a pack of 20, 250mg tablets.
<Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo much here in the U.S.>
If my math is correct this works out at 3.7 pence (~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or cheap as I am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks it.
<Tis cheap, for my area!>
Maybe it's easier in the US (I'm in the UK).
<Is prescription as a drug from my knowledge.>
At 10mg/l recommended dosage, I presume the easiest way to dose it would be to dissolve a 250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and use this for start-up water in a hospital tank and subsequent water changes. What do you think?
<This could work, yes.>
I also asked about its use, in case there were any other ingredients in this 'designed for human's' tablet that would mal-affect fish and/or inverts. Do you think there are?
<Doubtful, more like fillers and binders.>
How effective would you consider this as a treatment for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo?
<Very effective in my experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this drug is photo sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.>
Thanks for your time,
Matt.
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08
Well, folks. Thought I'd tell you a story and present you with a new spin on and old issue and throw an idea at you.
<Ok>
First, the trials. I have written you in the past for advice for taking a tank through a power outage lasting several days, and due to Hurricane Ike, we had an opportunity to put this to test. I am glad to report that this was a success! Using a 6000 watt generator, I was able to run the filters for one to two hours every 5 to 6 hours to keep the tank 'breathing' (Also running refrigerator, freezer, TV on occasion, some box fans, and a window unit in the bedroom..). I am proud to say that I had cold beer throughout our outage.
<There is something to this>
but I digress. When the tank temp seemed to be creeping up a bit high, I would put a 2 liter bottle of ice in the sump while the filters were on, cooling the water a bit. After 5 days, we finally got power back, and all fish were alive and in good health. so it would seem.
Not sure if it was the absence of lighting for 5 days, or the fluctuations in temperature, but the fish were stressed of course. and a single fish contracted ick. Now, a quick recap is that we decided we had a 'subclinical' ick infestation, which was fine as long as it stayed 'sub'.
Months ago I had purchased an Atlantic Blue Tang, which has done just fine with it's tankmates. Those are a Passer Angel, Lunare Wrasse, Yellow Tang, Tomato Clown, two damsels, and a cleaner wrasse that has defied it's life expectancy. The ABT is the only fish now that has contracted ick (of course it's present in the entire tank. why the other fish are so resistant, I could not tell you).
<Previous good care, genetic heritage>
I have been treating this tank with Quinine Sulfate.
<Do try Chloroquine phosphate next time...>
we went through an initial treatment, the ick remained, we are now in day 5 of a 9 day treatment. I still have signs of ick on the ABT in day five. Prior to treatment, I set up my 20 gallon tank and put as much LR as possible in there, along with a chocolate chip (been with me for years), a serpent, and sand sifting starfish, copepods, along with as many snails as I could find and remove. The quinine is quite effective on them, since unfortunately I had to remove a number of snails from the main tank after they were deceased and revealed. This 20 gallon tank will remain fallow for at least another two to three weeks (already been over two).
I am beginning to wonder how effective this Quinine will be on the ick remaining in the main tank. Basically, I have a 200g fish tank devoid of life, with the exception of a) the fish, b) the living bacteria in the rocks, and c) the ick. Here's the dilemma. I am formulating a plan c ( the a. was the subclinical existence, the b. is the quinine). Copper is no option since we do not want copper absorbed in the rock and silicone, etc.
I have purchased with dread a bottle of Quick Cure (formalin & Mal. Green) and it sits atop the tank leering at me, still in it's packaging. Long ago, I had used it with good results, then not knowing it's dark side. Here I am faced again with a possibility of using it. If I use it, I can get it out with carbon, water changes, and Polyfilters, I think. Tangs though, are sensitive to it, yes?
<More so than other species... formalin is a general biocide... crosslinks peptides (longer versions of which are proteins)... all life>
I've thought about dips/baths, but this is really pointless if there is ick left in the tank. To fallow the tank would require another tank of great size to house these fish for another 4 to 6 weeks, again not an option, especially when you're looking at treating sensitive tangs with the same medications anyhow. So I am considering the Formalin at half strength, wondering if this would even be effective in a partial dose.
<Mmm, no to partial dosing>
Also, for your readers, I did use something I had written about a while back, ParaGuard by Seachem. I can only say that it is not effective with this 'resistant' strain of ick I have. perhaps it would be in other circumstances.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for the report Thomas. BobF>

Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08
Chloroquine phosphate? Hmm.... I have never heard of this. Is there a common name for the product, or know where it's available? I'll do a search for it and see what I can find as well.
<Search WWM re...>
Would you recommend the Quick Cure as a course of action, and if so, any specific precautions in respect to my situation?
<See WWM re Formalin and Malachite...>
Thanks again, Bob. I don't get to write as often due to lack of problems,
but I always enjoy the replies...
Thomas Roach
<BobF>

Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like...  10/17/08
Been reading... and reading... and reading. My wife is a Vet Tech and I'm having her ask the Doc if he has the Chloroquine Phosphate. I've been calling around to local LFS's and I can imagine the blank stares that accompany the vocal responses. One recommended something called Kordon's Ick Attack or some herbal remedy. What a poor bit of advice. I remember you asking one of your readers if they would want to treat their child with tea tree oil if sick, and I thought that was such a good analogy that I now tell people the same thing. I think that if her Doc can obtain the CP, I might give it a go, but I have no clue as to what form it would come in or what dose to administer... He's treated horses, dogs, sea lions, etc..., but fish? I don't know.
<Mmm, there are a bunch of vet's that "cross over" to exotics, including aquatic animals... and Chloroquine IS the latest and greatest...>
As for the Quick Cure, of course no previous situation matches mine exactly, but that is to be expected.
<Look to the ingredients>
It seems to be an effective treatment if administered carefully, I'm worried now about it's effect on the biological filter.
<Destroys>
There seem to be mixed opinions on the subject. And then, if you add one drop per gallon, but only do a 25% water change, wouldn't adding another drop per gallon for the next treatment overdose the medication?
<Mmm, not likely... the ingredients... are quite transient... get "used up" quickly. B>
Seems a bit risky if you ask me. Tonight I need to do a 25% water change and administer the last Quinine dose, so I have three more days to decide.
I can tell that the Quinine does have some effect... without it, the tang has ick every morning. I have not seen it, or at least seen it in great quantity, since the treatment began. I just wonder why it returns if the medicine kills it.
<Mmm, a few poss. The intermediates are shielded most likely>
Thomas Roach

Re: Ich Treatment  10/17/08
I have read the FAQs on Chloroquine and I placed a order through an online company, but they called today and stated that they cannot ship the item to a residential address. Do you have any confirmed sites that can send the prescription without a Rx from a doctor? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
<I'd try your local veterinarian. BobF>

More Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/28/08, 11/13/08 <<RMF>>
Hello Mr. Fenner,
<Bob is out away from the net for a bit. Scott V. with you here.>
No resolve yet, but updates for you and results of things attempted...
<Okay.>
I went with the Quick Cure treatment, with much worry. I used daily for four days, one drop per gallon, monitoring water conditions and carefully observing the fish. Both tangs did fine through the treatment, and the ich disappeared for the four days. It did not kill the bio filter, either that or monitoring of the water conditions plus immediate water change after day four prevented any issues.
<<Mmm... much more likely that either the bottle of QC was not potent or that the make-up of your water/system absorbed the principal ingredient (Formalin)>>
However on day five, after rerunning the skimmer and carbon, the next day the ich returned worse than ever, again only on the Atlantic Blue Tang.
<<More evidence of the above>>
This was Saturday morning. I had one treatments worth of Quinine Sulfate left, which I administered immediately. (I have not as of yet located the Chloroquine Sulfate, my wife's Vet was not familiar with it.)
<<Mmm, phosphate, not sulfate>>
<A treatment of growing popularity, though still hard to find. Bob Goemans had a great article on the subject in the Sept. 08 FAMA, with some sources for Chloroquine phosphate, one of which is http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this.>
The Quinine must have severely reduced the ich, as Sunday and Monday mornings there were some present on the fish, but not near the number as Saturday morning.
<It can be an effective treatment.>
Prescription says to treat these fish in a nine day continual bath... but I'm thinking that perhaps twelve days or longer might be appropriate for this resistant strain. I have never seen anything quite like this. Again, I'll follow up with results/progress, but if you awaken in the night with an amazing idea, please reply!
<I will drop this in Bob's box just in case he does have more to add when he gets back. Do keep us posted.>
Thanks again, we're struggling but pressing on...
<Welcome, a steady course my friend. Scott V.>
<<Thank you Scott, Tom. BobF>>

My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading  – 10/10/08
Greetings ,
<Salutations>
My fish are infested with ich. I currently have them in a 10 gallon tank, and am treating them with copper. I should have a larger tank as there is a Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang , Hippo Tang, Flame Angel, and a Bicolor Angel all sharing mouse 10 gallon quarantine tank.
<... dangerous... too much life period, physio- and psycho-logically squeezed in here>
The copper treatment is about 5-7 days,
<I would not use copper on Tangs or Centropyge... Do (quickly) read about Chloroquine use here>
which hopefully will cure the fish.
<Mmm... too likely not... hard to keep a physiological dose up in such a setting... and too toxic...>
However, ich is still present in the display tank,
<Yes>
and is bound to re-infect the fish if I put them back into the tank, which means that I should leave the display tank empty without fish for a while.
<Correct>
My question is, how long?
<At least four weeks... longer, better>
I read about 31 days, but then again, I read that the ich can remain alive for months even without a host present.
<Can>
I am going to raise the temperature to 82-85 in the main tank, but am concerned about the livestock remaining in the tank which are two lettuce Nudibranch, one scooter blenny (which we have not been able to catch), one Coral Banded Shrimp, too cleaner shrimp, about 80 snails, several red leg crabs, a Sally Lightfoot, and a wonderful, slithery white ribbon-like eel.
<... the eel is/will act as a reservoir host here... Do you realize this?>
Which of these critters is susceptible to ich? I have read that eels are somewhat resistant, is this true?
<Yes>
I do not want to go through the procedure of leaving this tank fallow for however long is necessary, only to put the fish back in for them to get re-infested.
<... Understood>
I really appreciate your help and advice with this problem.
Best regards,
Jeff
<Mmm, well... T'were it me, I would NOT treat the families of fishes mentioned with Copper for Cryptocaryon... and NOT in such a small volume... the Eel needs to be removed... and you need to read re the use of Quinine cpd.s... Stat! Bob Fenner>

Re: My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading Chloroquine  – 10/10/08
Advice taken Bob, thank you very much for your prompt reply.
Best regards,
Just Castaldo
<I am very excited to find this anti malarial being found to be of such great use... and look forward to the price dropping, its availability improving with increased interest. Cheers, BobF>

Ich, copper and DT    7/24/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper.
<... a very poor idea>
What do you think? Would you advise this?
<No and no>
The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand.
<... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS>
There would be no inverts or LR at all.
<So?>
I plan to treat using Cupramine.
<A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here>
How long should I treat the tank?
<I wouldn't... you'll find that you are unable to "keep" a therapeutic dose of copper in such a setting... too quickly adsorbed...>
Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks.
Thank you for any help you can provide.
-Peter
<Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/24/08
Hello,
<Peter>
Thank you for the quick reply.
<Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here>
So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult?
<Adsorbed>
Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary?
<No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work>
Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks.
<... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...>
I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper.
Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM.
-Peter
<I would... and quickly. BobF>

Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/25/08
Hello again,
<Peter>
Thank you for the reply. I looked into Chloroquine phosphate.
Unfortunately I don't have access to this medicine.
<Ah, yes... perhaps worth the time, trouble to try to buy through veterinary or human sources...>
It would probably take me a long time to obtain it and by then, all my fish would be infested with ich. Interesting enough, my 2 triggers have yet to display any signs of ich,
<Balistids are "tougher", often sub-clinical>
while all the other fish have at least a few specks. But I guess that's what makes Triggers so resilient.
Again, I appreciate the help. But I have to act fast, so hyposalinity will have to do for now. If ich does come back months down the road, I will be better prepared with a proper sized QT.
-Peter
<You may well be faced with, defaulting to a (very common) choice of having an ongoing-infested system... See WWM re. Bob Fenner>

Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate   7/22/08
To the Crew at WWM:
<Gene>
For many years you've helped fellow hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight I've been having for YEARS against ich.
<Please do>
Before I begin I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place (mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me, especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for about a week
<A very good practice>
and then begin hyposalinity therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or so.
Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system. In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT.
<Good spiel>
As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4 - 6 weeks.
Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55 gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG 1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a different route.
The following is what I did next.
On 5/19 I began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose. This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28 and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5.
On July 8th. all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July 22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!!
At this point I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change. (Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms).
The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor crabs.
Gene
<Thank you for sharing your information and passion Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner>

Stumped on med effects, Quinine    6/19/08
Hopefully you are familiar with my ick battle, but if not, the short version is that I am treating my main tank with quinine sulfate to combat the resistant strain of ick. If Bob is the recipient of this email, he is very familiar? if not, trust that he and I have had extensive emails that led to this course of action? and a new problem has arisen which I need some assistance on.
The entire tank has turned green. The two tangs, a yellow and an Atlantic Blue, have not shown any problems. The Passer Angel has show some uncomfortable reaction, and the Lunare Wrasse has gone into hiding due to it. It has also effected a cleaner wrasse (purchased long ago, before I became ?informed?), in that he eats, but cannot swim normally anymore, seems extremely imbalanced.
The quinine treatment, as recommended by Natl. Fish Pharm, was 3 treatments, 3 day durations per treatment, changing 25% of the water prior to each treatment. Treatments one and two were fine, but my quinine supply was gone and I had another batch aired in for treatment 3. This third treatment turned the tank a nasty green color, killing all snails (which were removed), and causing this odd reaction from the fish. The only other thing that was added to the tank was something called ?Prime? by SeaChem, to neutralize Ammonia and Nitrites, after the snail kill off. This was done in conjunction with adding carbon, restarting the skimmer and UV filter, and a large water change. I had to go out of town for a day after this, and returning yesterday afternoon the water seemed to be as green as before.
(this is not algae bloom green, btw). Again, I did a 30% water change, added more carbon, etc. I noticed some improvement this morning in both color of the water and the fish, except for the small cleaner wrasse, who maintains his imbalance. Last night, after the water change, all fish had an appetite and fed well. I spoke with NFP Monday regarding whether or not Quinine Sulfate would cause such a massive staining of the water, and they are adamant that it would not.
<I have witnessed this change before though... with Quinine... perhaps an indirect effect... killing so much of competing, predatory microbes that others that look green proliferate. I think the change is biological, not simply chemical>
I'm wondering if I received something else in powder form by mistake that would cause the above conditions, and does anyone there have any thoughts/guesses on this. Does it sound similar (coloring of water, affecting of specific species-particularly wrasses, invert die-off) to anything you have had experience with? The tank is 150 gallons. The dose was a ¼ teaspoon per 10 gallons.
Again, just basically brainstorming, looking for root cause type info. It is probably too late for the little wrasse, I'm hoping all other fish can pull through this. It has certainly made a 150 gallon tank full of African Cichlids sound appealing?.
<Mmm, yes>
Thanks so much,
Thomas Roach
<Welcome. BobF>

Re: Stumped on med effects   6/19/08
Thanks, that was as best an assumption as possible. Last night on the way home I stopped and bought the last two Poly-Filters that a LFS had on supply.
<Oh, how much I wish I owned the rights to this product!>
This morning there was clearly an improvement in water clarity, so we seem to be making some headway. When I got home last night, I thought we had lost the little cleaner wrasse, as he had applied himself to the intake of the FX5 canister filter, which is quite large. I fed some mysis shrimp and Emerald Entrée, at which time he released himself and fed quite happily with the other fish. It's as if he's lost his equilibrium, and he was just resting in an upright position with the help of the intake volume. Odd.
My thoughts would be that tangs would be more sensitive to upset water conditions,
<Depends of what nature>
and that's what confused me, that being the wrasses are impacted more than the tangs.
And of course, why dose 3 would have such a different effect than doses 1 & 2.
<Worn tolerance>
I will say, though, that the ick is gone. I sent an email earlier in the week that I believe was lost in the technical issues I read about, that being that since I've added Quinine to the water, it has eliminated all of the Cyanobacteria, every bit of it. Ever heard of that, or thought that it would have that effect?
<Yes... and likely malarial protozoans...>
Maybe something good did come out of it all.
Thomas Roach
<I do hope this is the end of your trials... BobF>

Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions   04/13/2008
I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009.
<<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>>
It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed.
<<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>>
My display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it?
<<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it dissapear>>
Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish?
<<Yes>>
Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper treatment.
<<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>>
I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and i want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned.
<<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>>
My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior changes thus far.
<<Glad to hear it>>
My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an eheim classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated.
<<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>>
I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem.
<<As said above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>>
Thank you,
Greg Fasano

Re: Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended title)  04/14/2008
Hey guys,
<Thomas>
I read this today on the FAQ, thought I'd add a comment since I had a tremendous battle with Ich in my main tank a while back. That Quinine Sulfate I ordered after you guys connected me with that National Fish Pharm really did a wonderful job on my Ich problem and did not harm my biological filter. and, though it's a risk you take, I know that some fan worms survived the treatment as well, as I had some appear some time after the treatment on live rock that had been in the tank during the treatment. I had not added any new rock at the time of it's appearance. From all indications, I had the tough, resistant strain of Ick as well. I recommend it if you have an Ick problem. We've been Ick free for 6 months.
Best of luck,
Thomas
<Thank you for chiming in... with this timely input. Will share. Bob Fenner>
Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended title)  04/13/2008
I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009.
<<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>>
It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed.
<<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>>
My display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it?
<<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it dissapear>>
Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish?
<<Yes>>
Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper treatment.
<<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>>
I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and i want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned.
<<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>>
My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior changes thus far.
<<Glad to hear it>>
My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an eheim classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated.
<<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>>
I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem.
<<As said above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>>
Thank you,
Greg Fasano

FAQ on Quinine Compounds   8/8/07
This is just some info, since I just used some of this medication, and what I got to experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the Quinine Compound FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine Hydrochloride. I used Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish Pharmacy, which was very effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic, apparently, to hermit crabs, which I suppose are resilient little creatures, but it is very toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo snails in the tank (or so I thought) which I removed and placed in my 20 gallon, but apparently I had 8, and within a half hour of adding the Quinine Sulfate, the remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom. It isn't an instant killer, because they were fine after I quickly snatched them out and put them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote this to tell about a specific experience. I can see where it can get confusing, i.e. Copper = Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks; Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for fish and inverts and most likely sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish and sharks, bad for inverts. Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine RXP = safe for fish and inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :)
Thanks again, gentlemen & ladies...
Thomas
<Thank you for this input Tom. BobF>

Re: New Ich, Note re Quinine use   8/20/07
Ah! Eureka! Maybe... I consulted National Fish Pharmacy again about the quinine sulfate. Though I treated it as prescribed by the label, I did not turn off my protein skimmer. Now, the label says to turn off any UV filters and remove any carbon, but it said nothing about the skimmer. The guy at NFP said to definitely turn off the skimmer. Just an FYI, for anyone who might use the same treatment.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for this. BobF>

Re: Another ich (crypt) question   7/28/07
Hello, Crew
<Allan>
On following Bob's suggestion for treating resistant strains of crypt, I purchased 100 grams of quinine sulfate.
<Grams?!>
I searched through the archives and couldn't find anything regarding quinine sulfate and carbon use, and protein skimming. I'm following "normal" protocol for most medications by shutting down the U.V./skimmers and removing carbon.
<Good>
My question should be directed towards National Fish Pharmacy, but it's early Friday evening and I would rather not wait until Monday for an answer.
Can I run the protein skimmers and add carbon with the use of quinine sulfate? Obviously, I would like to maintain optimum water quality if possible.
<Quinones are too easily removed by such... I would do as you have. Bob Fenner>
Thanks again. You guys/girls are terrific!
Allan

Medicine reactions, Quinones, sharks...   7/28/07
Another opinion needed! After speaking with Natl. Fish Pharm, I purchase some quinine sulfate to kill Ick in my tank in the presence of a shark.
Though it isn't recommended, we are treating the main system. My snails were removed before treatment and it does not affect the hermit crabs at all. The treatment as prescribed was to add the quinine (done Tuesday) and after five days perform a 25% water change and run carbon to remove the quinine, then after a day repeat the treatment.
<Okay>
No fish appears to be bothered by the treatment, and they are no longer scratching on rocks at all, so I am sure it is working. My question is about the shark. He still looks really healthy. On Tuesday he ate quite a bit of shark formula w/ Zoe, right after the quinine was added. Day two he came out at feeding time and ate a few pieces. Day three (Thursday) he didn't really show any interest in the food. I've noticed he seems a bit more lethargic and doesn't seem to have an appetite. I'm tempted to go home today and do the partial water change and run carbon to remove the quinine.
Tomorrow is day 4 of the treatment though, and I'm wondering if I should try and make it the five days. Do you think that this quinine is bothering the shark?
<Not likely>
And, have you any experience with the quinine and ick?
<Ah, yes>
What would you think is the minimum effective treatment duration?
<Two weeks>
I'm in a catch 22 here. The sole reason for the quinine is to effectively whack the ick without hurting the shark. I'd like your opinion on it. There is very little in FAQ about quinine & sharks but one or two notes.
Thanks a million.
Thomas Roach
<Time to purchase or borrow some books Tom... Look for the name Ed Noga. RMF>

Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07
I have been on the 'net searching for someone that sells quinine for over an hour... sighs... Any ideas?
Thanks...
Thomas Roach
<I would try here, http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ . Give them a call if you can, they are very knowledgeable and friendly.>

Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07
I had to share this with you guys. I don't know if you care for specific references to suppliers, but this may help someone, it certainly did me. In my search for quinine for treating the ick in the below situation, I found this: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/
<Yes, my experience with them has been quite positive.>
Calling them, I spoke with Dr. Brian (sp) who answered the phone. He does research there, and was able to provide me with quinine sulfate. He was very informative and very interested in answering my questions. Apparently his father founded this company after being fed up with bogus medicines and treatments and their misapplication. <Need more of that in the hobby.>
He told me about different treatments and why not to use each one, explaining how each worked and the results to be expected. Specifically he told me that quinine sulfate would work better than the hydrochloride and that it was an excellent treatment with sharks present. It is very effective on crypt. He even suggested an alternate treatment program as to save me some money, so he was not interested in selling me something I did not need.
<Nice>
If you want to post this for your readers or look at the site yourselves please do so. <Will do so.> It is nice to find, along with WetWebMedia, and informative source that is so willing to help the average hobbyist. I hope this helps another reader some other time.
<I'm sure it will>
Sincerely,
Thomas Roach
<Thanks for sharing, always good to here people getting real help, retailers going beyond the minimum to help their customers.>
<Chris>

Need help finding a cure... <Crypt/Velvet?... Chloroquine...> 8/28/05
Wow.. what a wealth of knowledge you have and I am so thankful you are sharing this knowledge with us!
I love your site and though there is soooo much information on your site
it can make things difficult to find, but with a bit patience and lots of
searching I can usually find answers to almost anything.. i do commend you
(and the rest of WWM crew) for the time and effort you put into this amazing hobby.
well.. I wouldn't be e-mailing you if here wasn't a problem.. so here goes..
We have a 1500 gallon system.. yes 1500 gallons, my husbands dream (I love
it too : ) but I can at least blame it all on him : ).
It is actually 5 tanks that line two walls of our basement all on one filtration system which is located in the garage.
The tanks have been up and running about a year now and we are slowly
getting them stocked and arranged. It is a slow and expensive process as you are aware. I guess with adding new items to
the tanks we are always at risk. We have a separate 400 gallon tank we are using as a quarantine tank.
<All water, gear... separated>
For some unknown reason.. maybe adding new corals to the tank we had an
outbreak of what we believed to be ich. we removed all of the fish except
for the ones in the reef.. (Powder blue tang, 3 blennies and a mandarin goby).
<Mmm, if there are fish/es present in part of the system, they will act as "reservoir hosts" (scientific term)...>
So now in the 400 gallon QT tank we have the following:
Pink Tail trigger, Nigger trigger, Naso Tang, 3 yellow tangs, Blue hippo
tang, skunk clown fish, emperor angel, blue faced angel, purple tang and a
golden puffer... (there was also a clown trigger, lemon peel angel and
long horned cowfish, but they recently passed)
Ah yes. the golden puffer.. here is where our problem lies...  Since we do
have a puffer we cannot and do not want to use the conventional copper
medication for fear of killing him.  We have always used Hyposalinity in
the past with great success, however they have been in hypo for about a
week now with no improvement. the fish we left in the reef part of the
main system actually look better than the ones in the QT tank. Only thing we can come up with is marine velvet..
<Mmm, for the many dollars you have invested in this system, livestock, ongoing operational costs, I would invest in an inexpensive microscope, learn to use it... not hard, expensive...>
and only medication we could come up with people actually having success with was Aquatronics Marex which
contained Chloroquine <di>Phosphate. However to my findings over he past two
days.. Aquatronics has gone out of business and that medication cannot be found.
<Mmm, actually...>
I am having great difficulties finding another med with the same
ingredient or a vet to prescribe me Chloroquine Phosphate because they do
not specialize in fish... Do you have any suggestions on obtaining this
medication or another med that may help with external parasites that will not harm our puffer?
<Careful use of chelated copper along with hyposalinity... of all fishes... would be my choice... If you are convinced that you'd like to try Chloroquine diphosphate (note spelling) this compound can be procured for human use (used to treat malaria)... expensive... from a medical doctor source>
I have read so many articles on FW dips, but would Hypo not have the same effect?
<Mmm, generally not... the rapid change in osmotic pressure is often of much more immediate relief, destruction to single-celled animals>
If we try to FW dip can we dip multiple fish at once and change FW between "groups". How long can you leave them in
there without causing too much stress or harming them more?
<... this is posted on WWM>
You have my utmost gratitude for any help or suggestions with this....
Thanks for your time!!
Jatana
<I strongly encourage you to have local folks... guru/s from a marine hobby club, expert service company personnel... come to your site, inspect your fishes, system... help devise (and soon) a workable plan for isolating, treating ALL your fishes... and carefully quarantine all future purchases. Along with the microscope, I cannot urge you enough to procure a copy of Edward J. Noga's "Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment". Bob Fenner>

Malachite green/quinine and ich
G'day guys,
<Good morning Luke, MacL here with you today.>
I have found your site most informative. 
<Many thanks for the nice words.> 
I have a 530 litre, 5 foot by 2 foot, by 2 foot Tropical reef tank set up. In my tank I have 2 Pajama cardinal fish, 3 Green Chromis, 1 regal tang, 1 mimic tang, 1 mandarin fish, 1 scooter ( Neosynchiropus ocellatus ). I also have 1 pink Goniopora - bowling ball size, 1 green Goniopora - apple size, 2 species of Discosoma, 1 group of Zoanthus and 2 Anemones. I have a wall of live rock along the back of my set up, Serpulorbis inopertus and Haliotis varia are quite common through this wall.
18 months ago I successfully treated an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans on my regal tang with a 4 day treatment of Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green. All of the above species in my tank survived, though the Gonioporas
went into themselves for 8 days. Everything has been fine until now. 
Recently I added 1 clown wrasse, 1 18 inch snowflake eel and 1 Pentaceraster tuberculatus. I now have another out break of Cryptocaryon irritans. The regal tang has a good smearing of white spots and most of the other fish have 1 or 2 spots on them. No fish are showing physical distress YET. 
I believe the white spot came into my system on the clown wrasse though at the time of purchase no physical signs were noticeable. For future use I will be setting up a hospitable / Quarantine tank.
I know I will have to remove the Pentaceraster tuberculatus before using the same treatment as before, Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green, but I do not know if I should remove my snowflake eel? 
<Definitely take him out of the tank while the treatment is going on.>
Please your opinions would be greatly appreciated. 
<Good luck, MacL> 

- Greenex Strikes Again - 
Hello Crew, I have another question my tank had caught ich and the guy at my LFS told me to use Greenex so I did. Now all the LFS are telling me to throw away all my sand and recycle my tank. The Greenex worked alright, done a great job of killing ich, but it took my fishes, corals, and invertebrates too. <Doesn't sound like a good cure to me... I would fire the fish store that gave you this advice [to use the Greenex on your tank].> Sigh... of all means I don't want to have to recycle my tank, so I wanted to make sure about what you all think before I take action. <You must re-cycle the tank at this point, but you probably don't need to throw out your sand... run some activated carbon for about a week or two and you should be good to go.> 
Thanks,  Chris 
<Cheers, J -- > 

Pounding Parasites! (Another Medication?) Chloroquine for parasites?
You guys have a great website for information!
<Glad that you find it useful! We enjoy bringing it to you every day!>
I have been battling a persistent ich infection and potential velvet to boot.  DON'T ASK. I am now a quarantine believer, but 1 fish too late.  
<Well, better late than never. As long as you learned your lesson, the fish did not die in vain...>
I run a protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, and a canister filter
(convenient for carbon, etc. when needed) along with two other
powerheads for circulation in the tank (100 g acrylic).
I had previously treated quarantined fish with a round of
CopperSafe for 14 days to an apparent cure and allowed my main tank to go fallow for 4 weeks.  After returning the fish for a 4 week disease-free period, I purchased 2 more fish (purple tang and Foxface) from a very reliable dealer that quarantines and dates their fish arrival (fish had been in same tank for months), therefore did not freshwater dip due to stress issues that I had previously experienced.
<I have a bad feeling about this...>
After a 2 week quarantine in my own tank (disease free) I added the fish to my main tank (100 gallon FOWLR with 60 lbs LR).  After another 2 weeks I suddenly had a pearl-scale butterfly stop eating and dead the next day with no other outward signs of disease.  1 week later purple tang and Foxface had signs of gill problems (gulping air and increased breathing), followed by a couple days later with external signs of ich on the purple tang.  Tank chemistry was great, temp constant.
<I'm wondering if this was Amyloodinium, not ich. The "gulping" and difficulty in breathing are symptomatic of either advanced ich or Amyloodinium...>
Now my 20 gallon quarantine was not big enough for the fish (and my wife not tolerant enough for more tanks)....soooo .... I remove all invertebrates and live rock to my 20 gallon (I have no plans for corals) and treated the main tank with CopperSafe. (I realize you are cringing at this point, but this was a very calculated move that was made with much thought).
<I wouldn't have done it this way, but I can certainly understand your reasons for doing this...>
Problem solved.. ich gone after 3 weeks of measured copper
treatment.. removed all traces of copper and 2 weeks later replace the live rock, followed by invertebrates to the tank.  All is great for about a month and suddenly had ich again and a dusky appearance on the purple tang (maybe velvet).  Repeat the above with lowering spg to 1.016 and added a cleaner goby and am using Cupramine this time instead of CopperSafe.
<Grr...>
Am now finished with the three week treatment using
appropriate daily measurements of copper levels (as before).  All fish are eating great, look full bodied and healthy, except for lateral line with the purple tang (not surprising given the copper).
<Good observation on your part! One of the potential side effects of copper with tangs...>
I will remove Cupramine for the next two weeks with PolyFilter and carbon, increase the salinity, and then return the live rock, followed by the invertebrates once I see the pods living well.  On the upside the 20 gallon quarantine has great pod growth with no fish to eat them.
<Good to hear that!>
Other than the downside of treating my main tank can I do anything better? This is not a scenario I want to keep repeating.
<Agreed...I might leave the tank fallow for a longer period of time- like 6 weeks or more. This can really disrupt the life cycle of the causative protozoa.>
Given my prior persistence of parasite and the nagging fear of an
ongoing velvet infection will I get any advantage from additional
treatment with Chloroquine biphosphate?
<I'm skeptical at this point. Could do more harm than good.>
What is your opinion on using Chloroquine biphosphate?  Can it be removed from the tank with carbon after 10 days?
<Carbon/Polyfilter an remove many medications effectively..>
It is very difficult to find any good information on Chloroquine, since few people seemed to have used it much. Thanks for your help.  Have a great day!
Nick Lukacs
<Well, Nick personally have not used the stuff, either. I am more inclined to go fallow longer than I would be to "nuke" the tank with yet another medication. Tough on the fauna in the tank, as well as the fish. Short of thoroughly breaking down the tank and starting over, I'd go for the longer fallow period, myself. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

I dosed it with Greenex
Thanks a lot.....btw, my tank came down with ich! I dosed it with Greenex,
and all the fish died the next day.
<Argghhh, I hate this product... not uncommon result>
My tank got milky white and I did a 50%
water change. The cloudiness continued for several day and is now dying
down. I know I shouldn't have but I decided to add another clarkii for the
anemone, so far so good. It's been 5 days and the clarkii seems OK. He took
to the anemone in about 1hour! He now sleeps inside it and it closes around
him like covers (really kewl). BTW all my corals lived through the
medication just fish casualties. Thanks for the tip on the sponge for bubbles
I know I need to be skimming, but I couldn't stand all the bubbles. 
<Maybe relocate it to a sump?>
I have a lot of brown algae on the back glass would it hurt to leave it growing or
should I scrape it?
<If it bugs you, scrape away... should turn green with time, improving conditions>
Hey thanks again for caring so much about the hobby by
taking your time with all these questions.
Much thanks,
Joe >>
<Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Greenex and UV?
Hi Bob-
I am currently treating my 12 gallon marine tank (fish/live rock/few inverts) with the
product 'Greenex' by Aquatronics, for ich which developed on a new fish. This product had
failed me once in the past, but I caught the ich within hours of first appearance this
time and decided to give it another shot. Surprisingly, the ich was off the new coral
beauty the very next day...and I am continuing treatment.
my question:
Is it safe to use my UV filter while using the 'Greenex' product? 
<Yes... that is, the UV does not affect the type of copper and formalin mix which is Greenex...>
I turned it off
before treating in fear of a poor reaction, but would like to use it if possible.
Unfortunately, the box mentions nothing regarding the issue and I have been unable to
acquire any company contact info for Aquatronics.
Your help is appreciated.
Garin
<The usual warning here re this product, apparent "disappearance" of ich... the former is rather toxic, has little safety/efficacy margin... the latter does just "cycle off" initially until developing multi-generational stages in a system... Please read through the FAQs on "Marine Ich", and the MANY associated FAQs and article files to "Marine Parasitic Disease" on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com... and be prepared to enforce other treatment... at least the environmental manipulation, vitamin prep. and cleaner ideas gone over on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Re: Greenex and UV?
Thanks Bob-
I have read through nearly all your FAQ's regarding Ich and the sort...very helpful!
I will begin the environmental manipulation, since I lost my electric scallop to the
Greenex anyways. Hopefully the Emerald and Scarlet crabs will pull through the changes.
<Me too... and please do write, express your concerns re "labeling" to the fine folks at the manufacturer (Aquatronics)...>
I will also try a neon goby as a cleaner, but fear the trigger will have him for lunch.
<Surprisingly, they don't eat them at once... recognizing Gobiosoma as allies...?>
Regarding nutrition...currently I have a 3 fish: a Picasso trigger and a valentini
Toby/puffer (each about an inch long), and my new coral beauty angel. What food/brand
would you recommend for the best nutrition (whether it be frozen, flake, or a
combination)...whatever would be best? 
<Please see the "Foods/Feeding/Nutrition" section on the Marine Index on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com>
The angel doesn't seem too interested in the
'brine shrimp plus' flake or the frozen blood worms the others love. I thought I might
try growing some Caulerpa algae in the tank for him, since he ate all my hair algae.
<Add more live rock...>
I will beat this ICH!!
Thanks again, Garin
<Good attitude. Bob Fenner>

Greenex use
The guy at the fish store says that he uses Greenex to treat ick in a
system with live rock and sand...I thought I remembered your website
said that Greenex wasn't good.. when I got home I checked and it said
that it killed some fish...the bottle states that it is safe for all
fish, invert... and biological systems..
What is the deal??
Cheryl
<Unless the formula has changed, Greenex is not non-toxic... too dangerous, responsible for many losses... Post this msg. to the listservs for others opinions, experiences. Bob Fenner>

Question about a disease
My cowfish is swimming in circles and around its own center horizontally.
It happened after I treated it with "Greenex" (Malachite Green and Quinine
Hydrochloride) anti-protozoan agent against a marine ick for five days every
other day. On the box of the medication, it says that it prevents exactly
the same conditions as the fish acquired afterwards: scratching and darting.
The fish is so disoriented that it cannot eat pieces of octopus I feed it.
What should I do now?
<Change water, run activated carbon in your filter flow path, lower specific gravity, toss this toxic "medication" in the trash, use the search feature (Google) on the wetwebmedia.com site and seek the commiseration of other aquarists on the chatforum: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/
Otherwise, be patient and hopeful. Bob Fenner>

Another Greenex Burial
Hi bob,
I have a 38 gallon Berlin system reef tank. I recently used Greenex, malachite green and quinine HCl, to treat a tang that had white spots. The first two days of the treatment were fine, I kept the filters running without the carbon, turned off the protein skimmer, and continued use of Kalkwasser solution, and reef solution. Then on the final day of treatment, I decided to take out the filter block from one of my filters because I had notice that it had been dyed blue, and I forgot to shake the bottle of Greenex before adding it to the tank. After about two hours one of my Foxface started heavy gilling at the bottom of the tank, 10 minutes later it had gone from yellow to flush white started swimming upside down, did a vertical loop and flopped dead on the live rock. My second Foxface also succumbed despite an emergency water change, putting carbon back in the filter, and turning on the protein skimmer. My tang and clownfish were noticeably effected for 3 or 4 days but have now come back to normal, and my blenny never seemed bothered. Was all this a result of not shaking the bloody bottle of Greenex? Thanks for help 
<More of just using this "medication"... the filter was removing a modicum of the malachite and formalin (the ingredients) lessening their toxifiying your fish... removing the filtrant hastened the effect. Bob Fenner, who is glad to read of your other fishes revival>
sincerely Ben 

Greenex
WWM Team, I was reading through your Daily Q&A and read a post where a user had his tanked wiped out the day after he added Greenex and wanted to let you guys know that this exact thing happened to me about 6 months ago. I had a couple of fish sick with ICK and cloudy eye my pet shop recommended Greenex since I had some invertebrates, well after dosing my 180 gallon tank with 180 drops of Greenex the following day EVERYTHING was dead. I don't know what they put in that stuff but it had wiped out my tank just like it wiped out his, needless to say I've learned my lesson but paid a hefty price tag for it.

Greenex
I have a 50 gallon show tank with a Kole tang, Spanish wrasse, a clown, a multicolor sea urchin, 2 damsels, 2 fire gobies, and a flame angle. My clown got ick a few days after I got him.
<That is why we always recommend any and all additions get a four week quarantine period.>
My friend that owns the pet store I bought it from recommended Greenex. I had had problems with my fish dying after application before but was convinced that it was my tank because it was still new (about 3 months old).
<It could also have been the disease itself that killed the fish, not the treatment.>
My friend convinced me of it, but I took his advice because it worked on his fish. I made sure this time to check my water before application, every thing was perfect. I applied it as recommended, 1 drop per gallon. The next day the wrasse, tang, urchin, clown, angel, and one goby was dead along with one of my sand sifting stars.
<Wow!>
Is it just me or is this stuff killing my fish?
<I have had bad experience with this product on invertebrates, so I would believe it is possible that your urchin and starfish was effected, but too many other variables to say for certain the medication killed the fish. The speed of the deaths does lend credence to your suspicions, but it is also possible the clownfish was infected with Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium is harder to see and may have spread unnoticed. A quarantine/hospital tank is a must. Please see www.WetWebMedia.com regarding set up and proper use.>
I mean none of these fish were sick. I have had most of them for almost 6 months and no problems, no signs of being sick and all of a sudden mass die off! I checked my tank again every thing was fine. It seems every time I add this stuff to my tank all my sensitive fish (expensive fish) die!
<See, I would see the problem as every time you add a unquarantined fish, it becomes sick in your tank, infects everyone, you then treat the whole tank, and you experience deaths.>
Is it just me or can it be the Greenex?
<It is possible, but you have other forces at work here. -Steven Pro>

Treating Marine Parasites
<<JasonC here, Bob is off diving>>
Mr. Fenner, sorry to bother you again, but.... The symptoms on my fish were getting worse (ich and marine velvet) so we got a skimmer, but then started using Rally and Kick Ich by Ruby Reef to try to save fish and had to turn skimmer off. I ended up losing my Gold rim tang, Heniochus, and true Percula. Obviously these meds didn't work. I know you said to get Alkalinity right and keep water quality excellent, lower salinity slowly) and raise temp. I did these as well, Water is great, salinity is at 1.019 normally it is at 1.022 0r around there. Temp is around 80-82. We ran activated carbon through tank to pull meds out and try something a little "harder". We began using Greenex yesterday. My clown died but he wasn't going to make it regardless. Now none of my fish are eating. They are all hiding. I am now running carbon, protein skimmer and UV sterilizer to pull meds out as I believe Greenex is quite toxic. <<UV won't take any medications out of the water>> What else can I should I do. <<probably not much, reflect on what has transpired. Successful Marine tank keeping requires as much work before we put fish in the tank as after. >> We are kind of thinking to try to let the fish fight it off on their own. The shrimps are cleaning them and salinity is lowered. Please help we are running out of options. Remember we can't use hosp tank and we have inverts. <<I don't recall the details - this is an important piece of gear, perhaps more important than a UV filter>> If this were your tank given what we can and cannot do, what would you do at this time? <<wait it out, try to make arrangements for a quarantine system for future residents>> We have two hippo tangs and one true Percula left, two cleaner shrimps both working hard) I thought of neon gobies, but am afraid of getting any new fish.. HELP!!!!!!
<<well, the neon gobies are pretty hardy and may be a good place for you to get started again, however... you should really consider carefully how you might squeeze in a quarantine system. This one item could have saved you much of this heart-ache. Certainly a good idea to just let things run their course and see how the Greenex works out. You are quite correct about the toxicity of Greenex, and it probably should have been avoided. In any case, keep running the carbon, try to encourage your fish to feed but don't over-do it. Cheers, J -- >>

Greenex...reef-safe?
one more quick question. . . what is about Greenex that makes it so harmful?
<The active ingredients are Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride (a fairly nasty chemical).>
Why do they say on the bottle that it is "reef safe" if it has done so much harm?
<It claims to be "invertebrate safe", which is a pretty big difference. Many larger inverts can tolerate the stuff, but much of the smaller life in reef tanks and many corals will be harmed.>
Is there ever a situation where you would recommend using this stuff?
<The best situation for the use of any medication is in your bare bottom hospital tank. -Steven Pro>
<and adding that the malachite wreaks havoc with filter feeders and many octocorals>

Rapid Gill pumping....
Anthony, First off allow me to thank you for all of the help that you have lent me over the course of the last few days. Not only was your advice good, but it was delivered expediently, and in such a manner as to not make me feel like a complete dummy. Though I have been known to do extremely dumb things, particularly with my fish tank. Many thanks.
<very welcome and thank you for your patience. I fear sometimes that I am too strict of an aquarist and with my advice. Indeed, we all learn some hard lessons... just trying to minimize them <smile>>
Anyway here is what I did. Before I read your last email I transported the tang to a 30 gallon tank I borrowed from a friend;
<excellent... and though it might still seem small to you for a fish this size, it will serve the purpose admirably!>
cleaned it out really well, and then used 30 gallons of water from the main tank to fill the QT. This was on Monday night. I also treated him with a product called Greenex. Apparently this is a combination of Malachite Green, and Quinine extract. Everyone I spoke to said that this is an excellent all purpose antibiotic.
<it has a cure or kill reputation... aggressive but necessary at times>
It appears to have worked. Not only has the excessive gilling ceased, but his appetite is back, and the ick (or whatever it may have been) appears to have receded somewhat.
<excellent, and so soon. But don't relax just yet. Medicated several days after last symptom wanes if mfg recommendations allow and keep in QT for a minimum of 2 weeks>
Will keep him QT'd for some time yet. With fingers crossed, it appears that he is on the road to recovery. Which is good, because he has quickly become a favored fish.
<yes... a magnificent fish. You made the right call>
My Passer never appeared to become ill, which is also very good. I will definitely take your advice on the plastic tub QT setup. I completely overlooked such a simple solution.
<too easy to do <wink>... that's why we all brainstorm and share ideas>
Again thanks for everything. Michael
<always welcome, and thanks for sharing a positive update! Anthony>





 

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