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FAQs on Quinine Compounds Use in Aquariums

Chloroquine phosphate

Greenex: Malachite Green & Quinine HCL (Aquatronics)

Quinine Sulfate: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading – 10/10/08
Greetings ,
<Salutations>
My fish are infested with ich. I currently have them in a 10 gallon tank, and am treating them with copper. I should have a larger tank as there is a Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang , Hippo Tang, Flame Angel, and a Bicolor Angel all sharing mouse 10 gallon quarantine tank.
<... dangerous... too much life period, physio- and psycho-logically squeezed in here>
The copper treatment is about 5-7 days,

which hopefully will cure the fish.
<Mmm... too likely not... hard to keep a physiological dose up in such a setting... and too toxic...>
However, ich is still present in the display tank,
<Yes>
and is bound to re-infect the fish if I put them back into the tank, which means that I should leave the display tank empty without fish for a while.
<Correct>
My question is, how long?
<At least four weeks... longer, better>
I read about 31 days, but then again, I read that the ich can remain alive for months even without a host present.
<Can>
I am going to raise the temperature to 82-85 in the main tank, but am concerned about the livestock remaining in the tank which are two lettuce Nudibranch, one scooter blenny (which we have not been able to catch), one Coral Banded Shrimp, too cleaner shrimp, about 80 snails, several red leg crabs, a Sally Lightfoot, and a wonderful, slithery white ribbon-like eel.
<... the eel is/will act as a reservoir host here... Do you realize this?>
Which of these critters is susceptible to ich? I have read that eels are somewhat resistant, is this true?
<Yes>
I do not want to go through the procedure of leaving this tank fallow for however long is necessary, only to put the fish back in for them to get re-infested.
<... Understood>
I really appreciate your help and advice with this problem.
Best regards,
Jeff
<Mmm, well... T'were it me, I would NOT treat the families of fishes mentioned with Copper for Cryptocaryon... and NOT in such a small volume... the Eel needs to be removed... and you need to read re the use of Quinine cpd.s... Stat! Bob Fenner>

Re: My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading Chloroquine – 10/10/08
Advice taken Bob, thank you very much for your prompt reply.
Best regards,
Just Castaldo

Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper.
<... a very poor idea>
What do you think? Would you advise this?
<No and no>
The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand.
<... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS>
There would be no inverts or LR at all.
<So?>
I plan to treat using Cupramine.
<A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here>
How long should I treat the tank?

Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks.
Thank you for any help you can provide.
-Peter
<Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08
Hello,
<Peter>
Thank you for the quick reply.
<Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here>
So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult?
<Adsorbed>
Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary?
<No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work>
Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks.
<... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...>
I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper.
Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM.
-Peter

Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/25/08
Hello again,
<Peter>
Thank you for the reply. I looked into Chloroquine phosphate.
Unfortunately I don't have access to this medicine.
<Ah, yes... perhaps worth the time, trouble to try to buy through veterinary or human sources...>
It would probably take me a long time to obtain it and by then, all my fish would be infested with ich. Interesting enough, my 2 triggers have yet to display any signs of ich,
<Balistids are "tougher", often sub-clinical>
while all the other fish have at least a few specks. But I guess that's what makes Triggers so resilient.
Again, I appreciate the help. But I have to act fast, so hyposalinity will have to do for now. If ich does come back months down the road, I will be better prepared with a proper sized QT.
-Peter
<You may well be faced with, defaulting to a (very common) choice of having an ongoing-infested system... See WWM re. Bob Fenner>

Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate 7/22/08
To the Crew at WWM:
<Gene>
For many years you've helped fellow hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight I've been having for YEARS against ich.
<Please do>
Before I begin I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place (mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me, especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for about a week
<A very good practice>
and then begin hyposalinity therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or so.
Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system. In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT.
<Good spiel>
As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4 - 6 weeks.
Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55 gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG 1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a different route.
The following is what I did next.
On 5/19 I began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose. This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28 and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5.
On July 8th. all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July 22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!!
At this point I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change. (Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms).
The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor crabs.
Gene
<Thank you for sharing your information and passion Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner>

Stumped on med effects, Quinine 6/19/08
Hopefully you are familiar with my ick battle, but if not, the short version is that I am treating my main tank with quinine sulfate to combat the resistant strain of ick. If Bob is the recipient of this email, he is very familiar? if not, trust that he and I have had extensive emails that led to this course of action? and a new problem has arisen which I need some assistance on.
The entire tank has turned green. The two tangs, a yellow and an Atlantic Blue, have not shown any problems. The Passer Angel has show some uncomfortable reaction, and the Lunare Wrasse has gone into hiding due to it. It has also effected a cleaner wrasse (purchased long ago, before I became ?informed?), in that he eats, but cannot swim normally anymore, seems extremely imbalanced.
The quinine treatment, as recommended by Natl. Fish Pharm, was 3 treatments, 3 day durations per treatment, changing 25% of the water prior to each treatment. Treatments one and two were fine, but my quinine supply was gone and I had another batch aired in for treatment 3. This third treatment turned the tank a nasty green color, killing all snails (which were removed), and causing this odd reaction from the fish. The only other thing that was added to the tank was something called ?Prime? by SeaChem, to neutralize Ammonia and Nitrites, after the snail kill off. This was done in conjunction with adding carbon, restarting the skimmer and UV filter, and a large water change. I had to go out of town for a day after this, and returning yesterday afternoon the water seemed to be as green as before.
(this is not algae bloom green, btw). Again, I did a 30% water change, added more carbon, etc. I noticed some improvement this morning in both color of the water and the fish, except for the small cleaner wrasse, who maintains his imbalance. Last night, after the water change, all fish had an appetite and fed well. I spoke with NFP Monday regarding whether or not Quinine Sulfate would cause such a massive staining of the water, and they are adamant that it would not.
<I have witnessed this change before though... with Quinine... perhaps an indirect effect... killing so much of competing, predatory microbes that others that look green proliferate. I think the change is biological, not simply chemical>
I'm wondering if I received something else in powder form by mistake that would cause the above conditions, and does anyone there have any thoughts/guesses on this. Does it sound similar (coloring of water, affecting of specific species-particularly wrasses, invert die-off) to anything you have had experience with? The tank is 150 gallons. The dose was a ¼ teaspoon per 10 gallons.
Again, just basically brainstorming, looking for root cause type info. It is probably too late for the little wrasse, I'm hoping all other fish can pull through this. It has certainly made a 150 gallon tank full of African Cichlids sound appealing?.
<Mmm, yes>
Thanks so much,
Thomas Roach
<Welcome. BobF>

Re: Stumped on med effects 6/19/08
Thanks, that was as best an assumption as possible. Last night on the way home I stopped and bought the last two Poly-Filters that a LFS had on supply.
<Oh, how much I wish I owned the rights to this product!>
This morning there was clearly an improvement in water clarity, so we seem to be making some headway. When I got home last night, I thought we had lost the little cleaner wrasse, as he had applied himself to the intake of the FX5 canister filter, which is quite large. I fed some mysis shrimp and Emerald Entrée, at which time he released himself and fed quite happily with the other fish. It's as if he's lost his equilibrium, and he was just resting in an upright position with the help of the intake volume. Odd.
My thoughts would be that tangs would be more sensitive to upset water conditions,
<Depends of what nature>
and that's what confused me, that being the wrasses are impacted more than the tangs.
And of course, why dose 3 would have such a different effect than doses 1 & 2.
<Worn tolerance>
I will say, though, that the ick is gone. I sent an email earlier in the week that I believe was lost in the technical issues I read about, that being that since I've added Quinine to the water, it has eliminated all of the Cyanobacteria, every bit of it. Ever heard of that, or thought that it would have that effect?
<Yes... and likely malarial protozoans...>
Maybe something good did come out of it all.
Thomas Roach

Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions 04/13/2008
I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009.
<<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>>
It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed.
<<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>>
My display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it?
<<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it dissapear>>
Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish?
<<Yes>>
Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper treatment.
<<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>>
I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and i want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned.
<<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>>
My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior changes thus far.
<<Glad to hear it>>
My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an eheim classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated.
<<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>>
I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem.
<<As said above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>>
Thank you,
Greg Fasano

Re: Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended title) 04/14/2008
Hey guys,
<Thomas>
I read this today on the FAQ, thought I'd add a comment since I had a tremendous battle with Ich in my main tank a while back. That Quinine Sulfate I ordered after you guys connected me with that National Fish Pharm really did a wonderful job on my Ich problem and did not harm my biological filter. and, though it's a risk you take, I know that some fan worms survived the treatment as well, as I had some appear some time after the treatment on live rock that had been in the tank during the treatment. I had not added any new rock at the time of it's appearance. From all indications, I had the tough, resistant strain of Ick as well. I recommend it if you have an Ick problem. We've been Ick free for 6 months.
Best of luck,
Thomas
<Thank you for chiming in... with this timely input. Will share. Bob Fenner>
Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended title) 04/13/2008
I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009.
<<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>>
It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed.
<<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>>
My display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it?
<<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it dissapear>>
Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish?
<<Yes>>
Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper treatment.
<<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>>
I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and i want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned.
<<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>>
My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior changes thus far.
<<Glad to hear it>>
My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an eheim classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated.
<<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>>
I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem.
<<As said above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>>
Thank you,
Greg Fasano

FAQ on Quinine Compounds 8/8/07
This is just some info, since I just used some of this medication, and what I got to experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the Quinine Compound FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine Hydrochloride. I used Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish Pharmacy, which was very effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic, apparently, to hermit crabs, which I suppose are resilient little creatures, but it is very toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo snails in the tank (or so I thought) which I removed and placed in my 20 gallon, but apparently I had 8, and within a half hour of adding the Quinine Sulfate, the remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom. It isn't an instant killer, because they were fine after I quickly snatched them out and put them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote this to tell about a specific experience. I can see where it can get confusing, i.e. Copper = Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks; Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for fish and inverts and most likely sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish and sharks, bad for inverts. Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine RXP = safe for fish and inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :)
Thanks again, gentlemen & ladies...
Thomas
<Thank you for this input Tom. BobF>

Re: New Ich, Note re Quinine use 8/20/07
Ah! Eureka! Maybe... I consulted National Fish Pharmacy again about the quinine sulfate. Though I treated it as prescribed by the label, I did not turn off my protein skimmer. Now, the label says to turn off any UV filters and remove any carbon, but it said nothing about the skimmer. The guy at NFP said to definitely turn off the skimmer. Just an FYI, for anyone who might use the same treatment.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for this. BobF>

Re: Another ich (crypt) question 7/28/07
Hello, Crew
<Allan>
On following Bob's suggestion for treating resistant strains of crypt, I purchased 100 grams of quinine sulfate.
<Grams?!>
I searched through the archives and couldn't find anything regarding quinine sulfate and carbon use, and protein skimming. I'm following "normal" protocol for most medications by shutting down the U.V./skimmers and removing carbon.
<Good>
My question should be directed towards National Fish Pharmacy, but it's early Friday evening and I would rather not wait until Monday for an answer.
Can I run the protein skimmers and add carbon with the use of quinine sulfate? Obviously, I would like to maintain optimum water quality if possible.
<Quinones are too easily removed by such... I would do as you have. Bob Fenner>
Thanks again. You guys/girls are terrific!
Allan

Medicine reactions, Quinones, sharks... 7/28/07
Another opinion needed! After speaking with Natl. Fish Pharm, I purchase some quinine sulfate to kill Ick in my tank in the presence of a shark.
Though it isn't recommended, we are treating the main system. My snails were removed before treatment and it does not affect the hermit crabs at all. The treatment as prescribed was to add the quinine (done Tuesday) and after five days perform a 25% water change and run carbon to remove the quinine, then after a day repeat the treatment.
<Okay>
No fish appears to be bothered by the treatment, and they are no longer scratching on rocks at all, so I am sure it is working. My question is about the shark. He still looks really healthy. On Tuesday he ate quite a bit of shark formula w/ Zoe, right after the quinine was added. Day two he came out at feeding time and ate a few pieces. Day three (Thursday) he didn't really show any interest in the food. I've noticed he seems a bit more lethargic and doesn't seem to have an appetite. I'm tempted to go home today and do the partial water change and run carbon to remove the quinine.
Tomorrow is day 4 of the treatment though, and I'm wondering if I should try and make it the five days. Do you think that this quinine is bothering the shark?
<Not likely>
And, have you any experience with the quinine and ick?
<Ah, yes>
What would you think is the minimum effective treatment duration?
<Two weeks>
I'm in a catch 22 here. The sole reason for the quinine is to effectively whack the ick without hurting the shark. I'd like your opinion on it. There is very little in FAQ about quinine & sharks but one or two notes.
Thanks a million.
Thomas Roach
<Time to purchase or borrow some books Tom... Look for the name Ed Noga. RMF>

Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07
I have been on the 'net searching for someone that sells quinine for over an hour... sighs... Any ideas?
Thanks...
Thomas Roach

Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07
I had to share this with you guys. I don't know if you care for specific references to suppliers, but this may help someone, it certainly did me. In my search for quinine for treating the ick in the below situation, I found this: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/
<Yes, my experience with them has been quite positive.>
Calling them, I spoke with Dr. Brian (sp) who answered the phone. He does research there, and was able to provide me with quinine sulfate. He was very informative and very interested in answering my questions. Apparently his father founded this company after being fed up with bogus medicines and treatments and their misapplication. <Need more of that in the hobby.>
He told me about different treatments and why not to use each one, explaining how each worked and the results to be expected. Specifically he told me that quinine sulfate would work better than the hydrochloride and that it was an excellent treatment with sharks present. It is very effective on crypt. He even suggested an alternate treatment program as to save me some money, so he was not interested in selling me something I did not need.
<Nice>
If you want to post this for your readers or look at the site yourselves please do so. <Will do so.> It is nice to find, along with WetWebMedia, and informative source that is so willing to help the average hobbyist. I hope this helps another reader some other time.
<I'm sure it will>
Sincerely,
Thomas Roach
<Thanks for sharing, always good to here people getting real help, retailers going beyond the minimum to help their customers.>
<Chris>

Need help finding a cure... <Crypt/Velvet?... Chloroquine...> 8/28/05
Wow.. what a wealth of knowledge you have and I am so thankful you are sharing this knowledge with us!
I love your site and though there is soooo much information on your site
it can make things difficult to find, but with a bit patience and lots of
searching I can usually find answers to almost anything.. i do commend you
(and the rest of WWM crew) for the time and effort you put into this amazing hobby.
well.. I wouldn't be e-mailing you if here wasn't a problem.. so here goes..
We have a 1500 gallon system.. yes 1500 gallons, my husbands dream (I love
it too : ) but I can at least blame it all on him : ).
It is actually 5 tanks that line two walls of our basement all on one filtration system which is located in the garage.
The tanks have been up and running about a year now and we are slowly
getting them stocked and arranged. It is a slow and expensive process as you are aware. I guess with adding new items to
the tanks we are always at risk. We have a separate 400 gallon tank we are using as a quarantine tank.
<All water, gear... separated>
For some unknown reason.. maybe adding new corals to the tank we had an
outbreak of what we believed to be ich. we removed all of the fish except
for the ones in the reef.. (Powder blue tang, 3 blennies and a mandarin goby).
<Mmm, if there are fish/es present in part of the system, they will act as "reservoir hosts" (scientific term)...>
So now in the 400 gallon QT tank we have the following:
Pink Tail trigger, Nigger trigger, Naso Tang, 3 yellow tangs, Blue hippo
tang, skunk clown fish, emperor angel, blue faced angel, purple tang and a
golden puffer... (there was also a clown trigger, lemon peel angel and
long horned cowfish, but they recently passed)
Ah yes. the golden puffer.. here is where our problem lies... Since we do
have a puffer we cannot and do not want to use the conventional copper
medication for fear of killing him. We have always used Hyposalinity in
the past with great success, however they have been in hypo for about a
week now with no improvement. the fish we left in the reef part of the
main system actually look better than the ones in the QT tank. Only thing we can come up with is marine velvet..
<Mmm, for the many dollars you have invested in this system, livestock, ongoing operational costs, I would invest in an inexpensive microscope, learn to use it... not hard, expensive...>
and only medication we could come up with people actually having success with was Aquatronics Marex which
contained Chloroquine <di>Phosphate. However to my findings over he past two
days.. Aquatronics has gone out of business and that medication cannot be found.
<Mmm, actually...>
I am having great difficulties finding another med with the same
ingredient or a vet to prescribe me Chloroquine Phosphate because they do
not specialize in fish... Do you have any suggestions on obtaining this
medication or another med that may help with external parasites that will not harm our puffer?
<Careful use of chelated copper along with hyposalinity... of all fishes... would be my choice... If you are convinced that you'd like to try Chloroquine diphosphate (note spelling) this compound can be procured for human use (used to treat malaria)... expensive... from a medical doctor source>
I have read so many articles on FW dips, but would Hypo not have the same effect?
<Mmm, generally not... the rapid change in osmotic pressure is often of much more immediate relief, destruction to single-celled animals>
If we try to FW dip can we dip multiple fish at once and change FW between "groups". How long can you leave them in
there without causing too much stress or harming them more?
<... this is posted on WWM>
You have my utmost gratitude for any help or suggestions with this....
Thanks for your time!!
Jatana
<I strongly encourage you to have local folks... guru/s from a marine hobby club, expert service company personnel... come to your site, inspect your fishes, system... help devise (and soon) a workable plan for isolating, treating ALL your fishes... and carefully quarantine all future purchases. Along with the microscope, I cannot urge you enough to procure a copy of Edward J. Noga's "Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment". Bob Fenner>

Malachite green/quinine and ich
G'day guys,
<Good morning Luke, MacL here with you today.>
I have found your site most informative.
<Many thanks for the nice words.>
I have a 530 litre, 5 foot by 2 foot, by 2 foot Tropical reef tank set up. In my tank I have 2 Pajama cardinal fish, 3 Green Chromis, 1 regal tang, 1 mimic tang, 1 mandarin fish, 1 scooter ( Neosynchiropus ocellatus ). I also have 1 pink Goniopora - bowling ball size, 1 green Goniopora - apple size, 2 species of Discosoma, 1 group of Zoanthus and 2 Anemones. I have a wall of live rock along the back of my set up, Serpulorbis inopertus and Haliotis varia are quite common through this wall.
18 months ago I successfully treated an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans on my regal tang with a 4 day treatment of Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green. All of the above species in my tank survived, though the Gonioporas
went into themselves for 8 days. Everything has been fine until now.
Recently I added 1 clown wrasse, 1 18 inch snowflake eel and 1 Pentaceraster tuberculatus. I now have another out break of Cryptocaryon irritans. The regal tang has a good smearing of white spots and most of the other fish have 1 or 2 spots on them. No fish are showing physical distress YET.
I believe the white spot came into my system on the clown wrasse though at the time of purchase no physical signs were noticeable. For future use I will be setting up a hospitable / Quarantine tank.
I know I will have to remove the Pentaceraster tuberculatus before using the same treatment as before, Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green, but I do not know if I should remove my snowflake eel?
<Definitely take him out of the tank while the treatment is going on.>
Please your opinions would be greatly appreciated.
<Good luck, MacL>

- Greenex Strikes Again -
Hello Crew, I have another question my tank had caught ich and the guy at my LFS told me to use Greenex so I did. Now all the LFS are telling me to throw away all my sand and recycle my tank. The Greenex worked alright, done a great job of killing ich, but it took my fishes, corals, and invertebrates too. <Doesn't sound like a good cure to me... I would fire the fish store that gave you this advice [to use the Greenex on your tank].> Sigh... of all means I don't want to have to recycle my tank, so I wanted to make sure about what you all think before I take action. <You must re-cycle the tank at this point, but you probably don't need to throw out your sand... run some activated carbon for about a week or two and you should be good to go.>
Thanks, Chris
<Cheers, J -- >

Pounding Parasites! (Another Medication?) Chloroquine for parasites?
You guys have a great website for information!
<Glad that you find it useful! We enjoy bringing it to you every day!>
I have been battling a persistent ich infection and potential velvet to boot. DON'T ASK. I am now a quarantine believer, but 1 fish too late.
<Well, better late than never. As long as you learned your lesson, the fish did not die in vain...>
I run a protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, and a canister filter
(convenient for carbon, etc. when needed) along with two other
powerheads for circulation in the tank (100 g acrylic).
I had previously treated quarantined fish with a round of
CopperSafe for 14 days to an apparent cure and allowed my main tank to go fallow for 4 weeks. After returning the fish for a 4 week disease-free period, I purchased 2 more fish (purple tang and Foxface) from a very reliable dealer that quarantines and dates their fish arrival (fish had been in same tank for months), therefore did not freshwater dip due to stress issues that I had previously experienced.

After a 2 week quarantine in my own tank (disease free) I added the fish to my main tank (100 gallon FOWLR with 60 lbs LR). After another 2 weeks I suddenly had a pearl-scale butterfly stop eating and dead the next day with no other outward signs of disease. 1 week later purple tang and Foxface had signs of gill problems (gulping air and increased breathing), followed by a couple days later with external signs of ich on the purple tang. Tank chemistry was great, temp constant.
<I'm wondering if this was Amyloodinium, not ich. The "gulping" and difficulty in breathing are symptomatic of either advanced ich or Amyloodinium...>
Now my 20 gallon quarantine was not big enough for the fish (and my wife not tolerant enough for more tanks)....soooo .... I remove all invertebrates and live rock to my 20 gallon (I have no plans for corals) and treated the main tank with CopperSafe. (I realize you are cringing at this point, but this was a very calculated move that was made with much thought).

Problem solved.. ich gone after 3 weeks of measured copper
treatment.. removed all traces of copper and 2 weeks later replace the live rock, followed by invertebrates to the tank. All is great for about a month and suddenly had ich again and a dusky appearance on the purple tang (maybe velvet). Repeat the above with lowering spg to 1.016 and added a cleaner goby and am using Cupramine this time instead of CopperSafe.
<Grr...>
Am now finished with the three week treatment using
appropriate daily measurements of copper levels (as before). All fish are eating great, look full bodied and healthy, except for lateral line with the purple tang (not surprising given the copper).
<Good observation on your part! One of the potential side effects of copper with tangs...>
I will remove Cupramine for the next two weeks with PolyFilter and carbon, increase the salinity, and then return the live rock, followed by the invertebrates once I see the pods living well. On the upside the 20 gallon quarantine has great pod growth with no fish to eat them.
<Good to hear that!>
Other than the downside of treating my main tank can I do anything better? This is not a scenario I want to keep repeating.
<Agreed...I might leave the tank fallow for a longer period of time- like 6 weeks or more. This can really disrupt the life cycle of the causative protozoa.>
Given my prior persistence of parasite and the nagging fear of an
ongoing velvet infection will I get any advantage from additional
treatment with Chloroquine biphosphate?
<I'm skeptical at this point. Could do more harm than good.>
What is your opinion on using Chloroquine biphosphate? Can it be removed from the tank with carbon after 10 days?
<Carbon/Polyfilter an remove many medications effectively..>
It is very difficult to find any good information on Chloroquine, since few people seemed to have used it much. Thanks for your help. Have a great day!
Nick Lukacs
<Well, Nick personally have not used the stuff, either. I am more inclined to go fallow longer than I would be to "nuke" the tank with yet another medication. Tough on the fauna in the tank, as well as the fish. Short of thoroughly breaking down the tank and starting over, I'd go for the longer fallow period, myself. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

I dosed it with Greenex
Thanks a lot.....btw, my tank came down with ich! I dosed it with Greenex,
and all the fish died the next day.
<Argghhh, I hate this product... not uncommon result>
My tank got milky white and I did a 50%
water change. The cloudiness continued for several day and is now dying
down. I know I shouldn't have but I decided to add another clarkii for the
anemone, so far so good. It's been 5 days and the clarkii seems OK. He took
to the anemone in about 1hour! He now sleeps inside it and it closes around
him like covers (really kewl). BTW all my corals lived through the
medication just fish casualties. Thanks for the tip on the sponge for bubbles
I know I need to be skimming, but I couldn't stand all the bubbles.
<Maybe relocate it to a sump?>
I have a lot of brown algae on the back glass would it hurt to leave it growing or
should I scrape it?
<If it bugs you, scrape away... should turn green with time, improving conditions>
Hey thanks again for caring so much about the hobby by
taking your time with all these questions.
Much thanks,
Joe >>
<Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Greenex and UV?
Hi Bob-
I am currently treating my 12 gallon marine tank (fish/live rock/few inverts) with the
product 'Greenex' by Aquatronics, for ich which developed on a new fish. This product had
failed me once in the past, but I caught the ich within hours of first appearance this
time and decided to give it another shot. Surprisingly, the ich was off the new coral
beauty the very next day...and I am continuing treatment.
my question:
Is it safe to use my UV filter while using the 'Greenex' product?
<Yes... that is, the UV does not affect the type of copper and formalin mix which is Greenex...>
I turned it off
before treating in fear of a poor reaction, but would like to use it if possible.
Unfortunately, the box mentions nothing regarding the issue and I have been unable to
acquire any company contact info for Aquatronics.
Your help is appreciated.
Garin
<The usual warning here re this product, apparent "disappearance" of ich... the former is rather toxic, has little safety/efficacy margin... the latter does just "cycle off" initially until developing multi-generational stages in a system... Please read through the FAQs on "Marine Ich", and the MANY associated FAQs and article files to "Marine Parasitic Disease" on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com... and be prepared to enforce other treatment... at least the environmental manipulation, vitamin prep. and cleaner ideas gone over on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Re: Greenex and UV?
Thanks Bob-
I have read through nearly all your FAQ's regarding Ich and the sort...very helpful!
I will begin the environmental manipulation, since I lost my electric scallop to the
Greenex anyways. Hopefully the Emerald and Scarlet crabs will pull through the changes.
<Me too... and please do write, express your concerns re "labeling" to the fine folks at the manufacturer (Aquatronics)...>
I will also try a neon goby as a cleaner, but fear the trigger will have him for lunch.
<Surprisingly, they don't eat them at once... recognizing Gobiosoma as allies...?>
Regarding nutrition...currently I have a 3 fish: a Picasso trigger and a valentini
Toby/puffer (each about an inch long), and my new coral beauty angel. What food/brand
would you recommend for the best nutrition (whether it be frozen, flake, or a
combination)...whatever would be best?
<Please see the "Foods/Feeding/Nutrition" section on the Marine Index on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com>
The angel doesn't seem too interested in the
'brine shrimp plus' flake or the frozen blood worms the others love. I thought I might
try growing some Caulerpa algae in the tank for him, since he ate all my hair algae.
<Add more live rock...>
I will beat this ICH!!
Thanks again, Garin
<Good attitude. Bob Fenner>

Greenex use
The guy at the fish store says that he uses Greenex to treat ick in a
system with live rock and sand...I thought I remembered your website
said that Greenex wasn't good.. when I got home I checked and it said
that it killed some fish...the bottle states that it is safe for all
fish, invert... and biological systems..
What is the deal??
Cheryl
<Unless the formula has changed, Greenex is not non-toxic... too dangerous, responsible for many losses... Post this msg. to the listservs for others opinions, experiences. Bob Fenner>

Question about a disease
My cowfish is swimming in circles and around its own center horizontally.
It happened after I treated it with "Greenex" (Malachite Green and Quinine
Hydrochloride) anti-protozoan agent against a marine ick for five days every
other day. On the box of the medication, it says that it prevents exactly
the same conditions as the fish acquired afterwards: scratching and darting.
The fish is so disoriented that it cannot eat pieces of octopus I feed it.
What should I do now?
<Change water, run activated carbon in your filter flow path, lower specific gravity, toss this toxic "medication" in the trash, use the search feature (Google) on the wetwebmedia.com site and seek the commiseration of other aquarists on the chatforum: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/
Otherwise, be patient and hopeful. Bob Fenner>

Another Greenex Burial
Hi bob,
I have a 38 gallon Berlin system reef tank. I recently used Greenex, malachite green and quinine HCl, to treat a tang that had white spots. The first two days of the treatment were fine, I kept the filters running without the carbon, turned off the protein skimmer, and continued use of Kalkwasser solution, and reef solution. Then on the final day of treatment, I decided to take out the filter block from one of my filters because I had notice that it had been dyed blue, and I forgot to shake the bottle of Greenex before adding it to the tank. After about two hours one of my Foxface started heavy gilling at the bottom of the tank, 10 minutes later it had gone from yellow to flush white started swimming upside down, did a vertical loop and flopped dead on the live rock. My second Foxface also succumbed despite an emergency water change, putting carbon back in the filter, and turning on the protein skimmer. My tang and clownfish were noticeably effected for 3 or 4 days but have now come back to normal, and my blenny never seemed bothered. Was all this a result of not shaking the bloody bottle of Greenex? Thanks for help
<More of just using this "medication"... the filter was removing a modicum of the malachite and formalin (the ingredients) lessening their toxifiying your fish... removing the filtrant hastened the effect. Bob Fenner, who is glad to read of your other fishes revival>
sincerely Ben

Greenex
WWM Team, I was reading through your Daily Q&A and read a post where a user had his tanked wiped out the day after he added Greenex and wanted to let you guys know that this exact thing happened to me about 6 months ago. I had a couple of fish sick with ICK and cloudy eye my pet shop recommended Greenex since I had some invertebrates, well after dosing my 180 gallon tank with 180 drops of Greenex the following day EVERYTHING was dead. I don't know what they put in that stuff but it had wiped out my tank just like it wiped out his, needless to say I've learned my lesson but paid a hefty price tag for it.

Greenex
I have a 50 gallon show tank with a Kole tang, Spanish wrasse, a clown, a multicolor sea urchin, 2 damsels, 2 fire gobies, and a flame angle. My clown got ick a few days after I got him.
<That is why we always recommend any and all additions get a four week quarantine period.>
My friend that owns the pet store I bought it from recommended Greenex. I had had problems with my fish dying after application before but was convinced that it was my tank because it was still new (about 3 months old).
<It could also have been the disease itself that killed the fish, not the treatment.>
My friend convinced me of it, but I took his advice because it worked on his fish. I made sure this time to check my water before application, every thing was perfect. I applied it as recommended, 1 drop per gallon. The next day the wrasse, tang, urchin, clown, angel, and one goby was dead along with one of my sand sifting stars.
<Wow!>
Is it just me or is this stuff killing my fish?
<I have had bad experience with this product on invertebrates, so I would believe it is possible that your urchin and starfish was effected, but too many other variables to say for certain the medication killed the fish. The speed of the deaths does lend credence to your suspicions, but it is also possible the clownfish was infected with Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium is harder to see and may have spread unnoticed. A quarantine/hospital tank is a must. Please see www.WetWebMedia.com regarding set up and proper use.>
I mean none of these fish were sick. I have had most of them for almost 6 months and no problems, no signs of being sick and all of a sudden mass die off! I checked my tank again every thing was fine. It seems every time I add this stuff to my tank all my sensitive fish (expensive fish) die!
<See, I would see the problem as every time you add a unquarantined fish, it becomes sick in your tank, infects everyone, you then treat the whole tank, and you experience deaths.>
Is it just me or can it be the Greenex?
<It is possible, but you have other forces at work here. -Steven Pro>

Treating Marine Parasites
<<JasonC here, Bob is off diving>>
Mr. Fenner, sorry to bother you again, but.... The symptoms on my fish were getting worse (ich and marine velvet) so we got a skimmer, but then started using Rally and Kick Ich by Ruby Reef to try to save fish and had to turn skimmer off. I ended up losing my Gold rim tang, Heniochus, and true Percula. Obviously these meds didn't work. I know you said to get Alkalinity right and keep water quality excellent, lower salinity slowly) and raise temp. I did these as well, Water is great, salinity is at 1.019 normally it is at 1.022 0r around there. Temp is around 80-82. We ran activated carbon through tank to pull meds out and try something a little "harder". We began using Greenex yesterday. My clown died but he wasn't going to make it regardless. Now none of my fish are eating. They are all hiding. I am now running carbon, protein skimmer and UV sterilizer to pull meds out as I believe Greenex is quite toxic. <<UV won't take any medications out of the water>> What else can I should I do. <<probably not much, reflect on what has transpired. Successful Marine tank keeping requires as much work before we put fish in the tank as after. >> We are kind of thinking to try to let the fish fight it off on their own. The shrimps are cleaning them and salinity is lowered. Please help we are running out of options. Remember we can't use hosp tank and we have inverts. <> If this were your tank given what we can and cannot do, what would you do at this time? <<wait it out, try to make arrangements for a quarantine system for future residents>> We have two hippo tangs and one true Percula left, two cleaner shrimps both working hard) I thought of neon gobies, but am afraid of getting any new fish.. HELP!!!!!!
<<well, the neon gobies are pretty hardy and may be a good place for you to get started again, however... you should really consider carefully how you might squeeze in a quarantine system. This one item could have saved you much of this heart-ache. Certainly a good idea to just let things run their course and see how the Greenex works out. You are quite correct about the toxicity of Greenex, and it probably should have been avoided. In any case, keep running the carbon, try to encourage your fish to feed but don't over-do it. Cheers, J -- >>

Greenex...reef-safe?
one more quick question. . . what is about Greenex that makes it so harmful?
<The active ingredients are Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride (a fairly nasty chemical).>
Why do they say on the bottle that it is "reef safe" if it has done so much harm?
<It claims to be "invertebrate safe", which is a pretty big difference. Many larger inverts can tolerate the stuff, but much of the smaller life in reef tanks and many corals will be harmed.>
Is there ever a situation where you would recommend using this stuff?
<The best situation for the use of any medication is in your bare bottom hospital tank. -Steven Pro>
<and adding that the malachite wreaks havoc with filter feeders and many octocorals>

Rapid Gill pumping....
Anthony, First off allow me to thank you for all of the help that you have lent me over the course of the last few days. Not only was your advice good, but it was delivered expediently, and in such a manner as to not make me feel like a complete dummy. Though I have been known to do extremely dumb things, particularly with my fish tank. Many thanks.
<very welcome and thank you for your patience. I fear sometimes that I am too strict of an aquarist and with my advice. Indeed, we all learn some hard lessons... just trying to minimize them <smile>>
Anyway here is what I did. Before I read your last email I transported the tang to a 30 gallon tank I borrowed from a friend;
<excellent... and though it might still seem small to you for a fish this size, it will serve the purpose admirably!>
cleaned it out really well, and then used 30 gallons of water from the main tank to fill the QT. This was on Monday night. I also treated him with a product called Greenex. Apparently this is a combination of Malachite Green, and Quinine extract. Everyone I spoke to said that this is an excellent all purpose antibiotic.
<it has a cure or kill reputation... aggressive but necessary at times>
It appears to have worked. Not only has the excessive gilling ceased, but his appetite is back, and the ick (or whatever it may have been) appears to have receded somewhat.
<excellent, and so soon. But don't relax just yet. Medicated several days after last symptom wanes if mfg recommendations allow and keep in QT for a minimum of 2 weeks>
Will keep him QT'd for some time yet. With fingers crossed, it appears that he is on the road to recovery. Which is good, because he has quickly become a favored fish.
<yes... a magnificent fish. You made the right call>
My Passer never appeared to become ill, which is also very good. I will definitely take your advice on the plastic tub QT setup. I completely overlooked such a simple solution.
<too easy to do <wink>... that's why we all brainstorm and share ideas>
Again thanks for everything. Michael
<always welcome, and thanks for sharing a positive update! Anthony>

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