Flame Angel troubles
Crew --
<Bob>
I 've had a Flame Angel in a 10 gallon quarantine tank for approximately 2 1/2 weeks.   I feed 2X a day with Bob Fenner's recipe from CMA.  It has been eating and very active.  I siphon out the uneaten food daily and perform daily water changes of 2-3 gallons.  I noticed a couple of days ago its normally vibrant red flanks appeared a little washed out.  Also, it has one slightly cloudy eye.  I searched the WWM archives and learned that good husbandry and water changes are the most effective "cure" for a cloudy eye.  Today the fish appears very washed out and its pectoral fins appear frayed.  It still appears to be eating and active.  Is this a bacterial condition?  Is there a treatment beyond water changes?  Please help, I'd really hate to lose this specimen. Thanks for your assistance.  
-- Bob
<Mmm, I am inclined to suggest (doing what I would do) that you place this specimen in the main tank at this point... The likelihood that its health will improve in the current setting is not "good enough" to offset the likelihood of its improvement in better surroundings. I strongly suspect you have established live rock, with much more for this fish to sustain itself on, much better, stable water quality... in the permanent display aquarium. I would move it, and not worry further about transmitting an infectious or parasitic agent. Bob Fenner>

Re: Flame Angel troubles
Bob -- Thanks so much for your prompt reply --  I was thinking along the
same lines.  By the way, I really enjoyed your algae presentation at the
MARS meeting in Sacramento last week.
--Bob
<As did I. Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Farm-Raised Fish 10/29/03
Bob:
A brief review.  I notified you of a mail order company selling a farm-raised Centropyge loricula.  The  company is unimportant to my question, so I will leave them nameless here (you can read in past email below).  First, about your response: "eighty dollars for 3/4" to 1-1/4".... Yikes!...good for them and the industry".  
1) Is "yikes" in regards to (a) size, (b) price or (c) size/price ratio?  
<Yes... just a bit of (to be expected) "sticker-shock" at the price of small specimens (compared to the current transit and net-landed-cost for adults procured from the wild>
2) If it has to do with size, is there a general minimum (not that again!) for farmed fish?
<In general, yes. There is tremendous resistance from consumers (oftener than not) for "too-small" specimens, particularly in the face of available, larger, less-expensive wild-caught individuals of the same species>
3) Are wild specimens of this fish a lot cheaper out West?
<Flames "land" on the west coast for something in the "teens" of dollars to wholesalers... generally retail for 50-75>
4) If yes, is it because of the shorter travel time from their collection sites?
<Mostly yes... due to less re-bagging, shipping time... another important factor is that many markets (towns) shops sell livestock for scant mark-up>
My LFS always has a good supply of larger (3"+) wild-caught specimens at a steady $60.  So, I thought a 33% markup would be a worth it to be able to leave one in the ocean (I like to think of it that way).  Also, I like the idea of having a smaller guy to watch grow up.  
<I agree with your orientation>
5) As far as your 5" maximum statement, how long would you say it takes for this species to reach this size?  
<A few years (2,3) in a large, uncrowded, well-fed setting>
6) Can I reliably approximate an age for this fish at 2", 3" and 4"?
<Perhaps 2, 3 and four years respectively, plus or minus an inch or year>
7) With any "newly" farm-raised livestock, is it best to wait a few generations?
8) If yes, why?
<Not necessarily... it "took" a couple of decades to work out the bugs, get as hardy, colorful, well-marked generations of Amphiprionines captive-produced as wild, but the Centropyges, other angels... Gobiosoma, pseudochromids and others are hardier than wild-caught from the get-go nowadays>
9) How long (ballpark) would a few generations take?
<five, ten years, depending on species characteristics, difficulties to work out in the breeding, rearing protocols>
10) Can you breed out the "wild" in a species?
<Yes, definitely>
Sorry, I think I got carried away, but I just wanted to cover everything.  My main concern is buying a large specimen that is already 5 years old/possibly at middle-age, since this fish will be my crown jewel.  Regards, Rich.
<No worries. Good questions, valid concerns. Bob Fenner>

- Flame Angel Issues - 
Hi 
My flame angel just came with this disease today. Can you identify it for me and suggestions on how to treat it, please. <Hmm... the picture is just blurry enough that I can't be 100% sure what that is. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that it's probably Lymphocystis - a viral condition that comes and goes on its own. There is no treatment.> I have had him for about 6 months. Thanks in advance. <Keep on eye on the fish... as long as it's eating and otherwise doing fine, I wouldn't be too concerned.> 
Gaurav 
<Cheers, J -- > 

- Flame Angel Quarantine - 
Hi again, 
Last question on the flame. She has been in the q tank for about 3 weeks w/no sign of infection for a week. She is still not eating. <Has the fish also not been eating for three weeks?> I was wondering if it would be ok to put her back in the main tank so she could feed off the live rock, I have tried all the normal food stuffs (Nori, Mysis, brine etc.) but she won't even look at it. <I would go ahead an place this fish - perhaps a ph-adjusted, freshwater dip before you make the move.> Any ideas would be great. <Hmm... if you can get your hands on the TMC Gamma frozen foods in your area, seek out their whole cockles in the shell. More often than not, one of these thawed out and cracked open is hard to resist for most any fish.> Thanks 
<Cheers, J -- > 

Flame Angel Trouble
>I recently bought a flame angel (1 week ago).  All was going well until yesterday when the angel started to pale in color.  She is now pretty pale and twitches slightly.  
>>The animal sounds very stressed.
>I do not have a q-tank (sorry!) and she is in a 30 gal with a dwarf lion and a b/g Chromis.  Please help I do not want to lose this fish.  I did a h2o change last night to try to help.  
>>The water change will help.  If you have NO invertebrates in the tank, I would begin dropping the salinity till it gets down to 1.010.  If you can AT ALL, consider getting one of those stackable Rubbermaid tubs, those work GREAT as quarantine systems, just heat, add a sponge filter and go.  In the meantime, watch her, keep her eating, do lots of water changes.
>She is eating well with no spots (just pale, slight scratching, and twitching once in a while).  Thanks
>>Observe, and do get that tub for the future.  Best of luck.  Marina

Flame Angel BIG Trouble - II
>Flame angle took a turn for the worse.  So I went out and bought a q-tank and all the fixings.  I started a formalin treatment.  She had cloudy eye and severe fin rot.  
>>Holy sheet!  This is moving quickly.
>After 24 hrs in the tank the cloudy part of the eye fell off leaving a puffy eye with  a grey spot in the middle.  
>>Oh man..
>Her overall color is very good.  Will she lose the eye??
>>If I'm understanding what you've described, it sounds as though she's lost the cornea.  I would not expect it to heal up "good as new".
>Also, will the fins grow back (how long)??
>>Assuming this disease is under control and then cured, yes, they'll grow back.  How long is dependent upon many factors, though, not the least of which will be nutrition and EXCELLENT water quality.  I would expect, once cured, signs of healing to show within a month.  After that, full regrowth could be anywhere from within a couple of weeks to more than two-three months.
>Thanks for you time and help w/the hard lesson about the Q-tank.
>>Sage words, let your lesson be learned by others, yeah?  I'm just glad that the fish is still kicking around.  Marina

Flame Angel BIG Trouble - III
>Thanks for the quick response.  
>>We do try.
>I was just wondering if you thought my treatment was correct.  
>>Without actually seeing the animal myself, and knowing that if it IS the result of parasitic infection, knowing that formalin is appropriate for both ich and Brooklynellosis, my guess is yes.
>Also I read to keep the sponge filter in the sump of my reef after the quarantine, but how do you remove the formalin??
>>What is meant by this is that it is good to keep a sponge filter inoculated with bacteria for q/t and hospital systems.  However, you can't just plunk them back in, you'll need to clean them (I, personally, would bleach) well.  In this case I would clean and sterilize, then run for a day or two with freshwater, using your nose to check for any scent of the formalin.  If in doubt, clean it all over again.  Marina

Flame Angel BIG Trouble - IV
>The flame has regained color.  
>>Ah, small bit of relief.  
>She is not moving around the tank very well (swims in one area), but her fins are starting to look a lot better.  She has not eaten in about a week and a half and shows no interest in brine or Mysid.  
>>Hhmm.. have you tried vegetable foods?
>She is also growing a white cotton fluff under her two side fins.  When one problem seems better another emerges.  
>>So it seems, secondary.  However, if it looks wispy-cottony, it could be a fungal infection.  I would dose with Methylene blue, enough to turn the water blue.  This should not stress her, but can make viewing a bit more difficult.  Keep up with water changes rather frequently, too.
>One other question, how safe is formalin???  Should you wear gloves?  Cover the tank?  Overall things to be concerned with?  
>>The tank should be covered to protect from anything falling in and the fish jumping out no matter.  Formalin does contain formaldehyde, so if you think you might be sensitive at all, gloves are a very good idea.  Good basic safety precautions when working with chemicals are your basis here: no contact with open wounds or rashes, if you develop ANYTHING on your skin go see the doctor and make sure you come into no contact, that sort of thing.  I think you're doing a good job if she's still kicking around!  Marina

Fighting Ich The Easy Way?
I'm starting to feel indebted to you guys for all the help you have given me.  Here is my question for the day.  I have a flame angel in quarantine, about 3 inches long.  He was brought in from Hawaii two weeks ago from LFS.
<Excellent fish, excellent procedure, and the best place to get 'em from!>
Curious about surroundings, eating some prepared food, nibbling on
everything in sight, seemed healthy.  He is now in my quarantine tank, been there for two days, started showing some signs of ich, 5 or 6 spots on him. Do I have to medicate, or can I just siphon 1 or 2 gallons a day from the bottom of the tank, hoping for him to battle this on his own.  
<Actually, the procedure is 100% changes, siphoning from the bottom of the bare quarantine tank. By doing this, you're removing any encysted stages of the parasite that may be present. It's not that traumatic, actually, if you are using water from your display tank as the QT water. You're simply replacing the water in the QT with water of the exact same temperature and composition; the same water that the fish will be living in for the rest of his life. Really pretty safe! I'd try this before I'd resort to chemicals, particularly with Centropyge species. Lon-term use of copper is a definite no-no with these guys.>
He is still eating.  I don't want to give him a fresh water dip (my usual procedure) because I gave him one when I first got him and he didn't like it, tried to jump, spitting water at surface, etc...  I think that the stress from the dip may have actually triggered the ich.
<Possible. Centropyge don't take well to FW dips on occasion! I agree with your decision not to do a dip again.>
By the way I don't think I did anything wrong with the first dip, ph adjusted, temp adjusted, aerated R/O water, about 8 min.s long, the same procedure I have used with success on my tangs).
<Yep- you did fine. A great procedure; it's just that some fishes don't take well to it!>
If you feel I can wait this out, at what point, or what signs would
you wait for to determine if I have to take further action?  i.e: just watch him if he is acting normally with just a few spots, medicate him if he is showing further signs of disease like scratching and more spots.
<You're reading my mind!>
If I should medicate him, what do you recommend?
<I'd consider a product with Formalin in lieu of Copper Sulphate>
Thanks for your help.
<Glad to be of assistance. I think that you are on the right track here. Keep this guy eating a variety of foods, give him excellent water quality, use the water change technique and he may just pull through without any other intervention required! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

- Flame Angel with Ich -
I'm starting to feel indebted to you guys for all the help you have given me.  Here is my question for the day.  I have a flame angel in quarantine, about 3 inches long.  He was brought in from Hawaii two weeks ago from LFS. Curious about surroundings, eating some prepared food, nibbling on everything in sight, seemed healthy.  He is now in my quarantine tank, been there for two days, started showing some signs of ich, 5 or 6 spots on him. Do I have to medicate, or can I just siphon 1 or 2 gallons a day from the bottom of the tank, hoping for him to battle this on his own. <At the very least get it a cleaner shrimp... sometimes you can keep ahead of an all out infection this way, but if you have to medicate the tank the shrimp would have to go.> He is still eating.  I don't want to give him a fresh water dip (my usual procedure) because I gave him one when I first got him and he didn't like it, tried to jump, spitting water at surface, etc...  I think that the stress from the dip may have actually triggered the ich. <Mmmm... you can probably imagine, no saltwater fish is going to like a freshwater dip but many of them can take this treatment, sometimes for as long as 10 minutes. pH-adjusted, freshwater dips are a wise and useful first stop along the way for dealing with ich.> By the way I don't think I did anything wrong with the first dip, ph adjusted, temp adjusted, aerated R/O water, about 8 min.s long, (the same procedure I have used with success on my tangs). <Excellent.> If you feel I can wait this out, at what point, or what signs would you wait for to determine if I have to take further action? <More, rather than less ich - as long as the fish is still interactive and eating, it's on the positive side of things. If you do need to treat with copper, use a dose slightly less than normal and keep it up for 14 days along with daily to every other day water changes.> i.e: just watch him if he is acting normally with just a few spots, medicate him if he is showing further signs of disease like scratching and more spots. <Oh... I should have read on - jolly good show.> If I should medicate him, what do you recommend? <Copper, but as I pointed out, should be a mild dose - angels can be sensitive to copper, but really have the most trouble with prolonged exposure to it, so it's meant to be a short term treatment.> Thanks for your help.
<Cheers, J -- >

Farm-Raised Centropyge loricula 9/10/03
Bob:
Since you have a place in Hawaii, I figured I would address this question directly to you.  Do you or anyone you know have any experience with the tank-raised C. loricula out of Hawaii?  I was wondering if anyone has seen what these specimens are looking like.  Do you know how long this species has been tank-raised?  Is it better to wait a longer time for numerous generations before acquiring one?  Any information is greatly appreciated.  Thanks, Rich
<Have not seen any cultured Flames for sale as of yet... Think this is a U. of HI project still at this point (i.e. not commercial). Will take a while to grow out ( a few to several months) the young to be anywhere near saleable size. Bob Fenner>

Re: Farm-Raised Centropyge loricula 9/10/03
Bob:
Thanks for the blazing fast reply.  Actually, one of your sponsors is claiming to sell these:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=1644
and I was hoping you had some more info.   This is the first place I come to (and buy books from) for advice.  Rich
<Ahh! Thank you for this notice... eighty dollars for 3/4 to 1 1/4".... Yikes! Dr.s Fosters and Smith, good for them and the interest.>
Ps: Hey, when are you coming back to the Northeast?
<Mmm, no plans right now... Will be at the next IMAC and MACNA's though. Be seeing you, Bob Fenner>

Question about Flame Angels
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 
Dear Bob,
<Hello Mary>
Hello! Hope you've had a great summer. Business is finally starting to pick up again, and I'm hoping for a very busy "busy season".
<Yay! Good riddance to the summer doldrums days, weeks, months of marine aquaria>
I have a question for you. In my never-ending battle to educate the public on cyanide, there is a person who is claiming that Flame angels are cyanide caught because you include the Philippines as part of their natural range in this article http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/loricula.htm
<Unusual (as in rare), but so from the region. As you know, most loricula are collected from the Marshall's.... though the species is found (inconsistently) from Australia to Hawai'i (the little male on the cover of CMA is a shot by Fred Bavendam in Hawaii...>
I have told them that Flames are rarely, if ever, exported from the Philippines (I've never seen them on a list) and that just because something has a "range" there that doesn't necessarily mean it is collected for the aquarium trade. 
<Well-stated, and agreed>
I've told them that flames are generally exported from Christmas, Cooks, Vanuatu, and sometimes Hawaii. Could you send me an email clarifying this so I can respond to Mr. Everything is Caught with Cyanide properly?
<I am in concurrence with your view, observation. Flames are rare in the P.I. I also have never seen them on a "list" of animals from the area. I will post this message with our loricula information. Thank you, Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Mary Middlebrook

What Happened to My Flame Angel? - 08/24/03
<Hi Luke, PF with you tonight>
I bought a Flame Angel two weeks ago with 3 other fish (clown, banner fish and raccoon b-fly). I've quarantined them. The fish got minor Ich a few days ago and I've added Cupramine as prescribed. Ammonia levels 0, nitrite 0, Ca 460, ph 8.3, high alkalinity, salinity 1.023, temp 26C. Ich disappeared after 2 days. Today I have noticed that my flame angel was turning white and was swimming kind of on the side near the surface. This was 4 days after adding Cupramine. The other fish are fine. There are no external signs of anything... no bacterial infections, ich etc... nothing...
What has caused this?
IS the fish going to die? I've changed most of the water to fresh, but after 3 hrs there's no improvement.
<Well, this could be a side effect of your use of copper. When you use copper you should always test it, and be sure and research the fish and their reactions to it. Clowns for example, are very sensitive to copper. How big is the QT tank you're using, and have you placed some pieces of PVC in their to act as an artificial reef?>
Thank you,
Luke
<Good luck Luke, hopefully your fish is doing better.>

Centropyge Pairing and LFS Scrutiny - Unwarranted 8/7/03
Crew:
<person>
I was at my LFS today, and they were selling 2 Flame Angels (C. loricula) as a "pair".  Don't they change sexes as needed or something?
<not exactly... they can/do change sex and will do so one way and once generally (unlike Clownfishes/other). They are also somewhat easy to sex. Most collected/seen in the trade are males. Females are very conspicuous with a washed out red/orange/citron flank with fewer and less wide dark vertical bars other flanks... as well as diminished purple bars on the anal fin. Other features too>
Is this pairing a ploy, or would you suppose they arrived "fin in fin"?
<neither. Someone late in the chain of custody had a good eye for sexing them and attempted a match that worked (they are often intolerant)>
Also, as far as I have read, rearing this species to adulthood has proven elusive, so what gives?  
<they have been successfully reared in HI>
I doubt they would ask if I was an expert trying to rear the young, and then tell me that it's hardly ever been done.
<you are completely mistaken here my friend... they were only trying to sell a sexed and compatible pair... a sexed pair was promised... not a breeding pair, no?>
Perhaps if I have more time next time, I will grill the folks down there about it.  
<relax mate>
That brings me to another subject:  Understanding that my LFS is
a business, how much scrutiny does one give before disqualifying a place entirely?  
<relative to your personal/moral philosophy>
I sometimes feel that they should not be selling certain
livestock, like anemones (at least 6 different looking ones - they can't all be hardy), Pipefishes, etc.  
<but do they serve the greater good overall? Do consider... and again, do relax>
Maybe it is late at night and it is just me,
<perhaps.. or maybe its the champagne and Pez candies talking>
but I sometimes shake my head at some things, like a tang with a mouth problem that is doomed, and it's on sale.  
<offered at a discount to someone who cares to help it is empathetic, if that's their intent>
I wouldn't exactly label it as underhanded, I mean you have to know that something is on sale for a reason, right (or at least ask)?  Thanks for reading.  Rich
<Rich... you just may have more conspiracy theories than even I do. You calm me. Seek peace my friend. And seek pees. Anthony>

Flame Angel (8-2-03)
Are these fish hard to keep? and would it be appropriate to keep one in a 20 gal w/  a clownfish?<They are pretty easy to keep but I would not advise putting one in anything less than a 30 gal. Cody><A sixty is my minimum. RMF>
Nick

- Pale Flame Angel -
Crew,
<Hello, JasonC here...>
Thanks for your help a few months ago, really helped. Tank as a whole is doing really well now!
I've had a Flame Angel for 8 weeks, main tank for 4 weeks. He has been feeding well and is very active. But in the last week I've started to notice that he is getting a little pale around the eyes and gills. The food is as follows; Frozen Mysis shrimp, Frozen bloodworms, Frozen Emerald Entree, thawed/mixed/refrozen in distilled water in smaller chunks twice a day. Every other day I'll give them some Formula II flakes as a snack. The Flame also eats algae from the rocks constantly. <Ahh good...>
I've been reading about Zoe so I got some. I've been soaking the food in it for about 15 minutes since Saturday. I'm sure if this is it, it will take longer then a few doses to fix the problem. I've also been told that garlic will help, by the LFS, is this true? <I don't think so myself... as of late garlic has been touted to fix everything including hair loss, but at best it will just make your skimmer effluent stinky. I think it 'may' be helpful to good health, but it's most certainly not a cure-all.> I thought it was for more anti-bacterial then for deficiencies.
Does the course of action seem ok? Should I be trying something else? <No, I think you are on the right track - the foods you are feeding are all vitamin enriched, and feeding a variety is the best route to go... personally, I add vitamins every time I feed and see nothing wrong with you doing the same. As for the coloration on the fish, I wouldn't be super-concerned as long as the behavior is consistent. It can take as long as two to three months for a fish to become adjusted to its new environment.>
Also, I've just purchased a Hagen PO test kit. Getting 0.0 to .25 readings, what range am I shooting for? 0? <Ideally, zero, but a trace amount is often transient and not much to be worried about.>
Thanks for all your help,
Dave
Water conditions (tested yesterday):
0 NH4, 0 NO2, 0 NO3, 8.2 PH, 460 Ca, 125 Alk, 79 temp, 1.024 salinity
75 gallon AGA, EuroReef ES5-2, 90lbs LR.
<Cheers, J -- >

"A flame by any other name... would smell.... er, just smell."
I was thinking about purchasing a flame angel from LiveAquaria.com but I can't decide on where I want the specimen from. They have a choice from either Marshall Islands, Christmas Islands, or Cook Islands. I want a healthy specimen obviously, but I also want one that will be very vibrant in color and stand out. Which specimen would have the most vibrant coloration? One more question, I've heard that the Cook Islands only have once source of collectors (I forget the name) but now that LiveAquaria.com is getting them in from the Cook Islands could it still be possible that the same couple who collected those flame angels are still the only ones doing it? Because I read that there's only one source in the Cook Islands and they are qualified collectors, shippers and have excellent quality stock...Thanks! Steve
<The non-Hawaiian flame angels tend to be less red, more orange. Some have more purple. I personally prefer the Hawaiian flame angels to exclusion and have not preference on the other three locales re: coloration/morphs. The Hawaiian ones also ship better (handled well and shorter transit to California). If you are looking for "vibrant"... seek a Hawaiian flame :) Best regards, Anthony>

- Sick Flame Angel -
Hello,
<Good morning, JasonC here...>
It's been a while since I've used your services - a whole new look on the website, a bit intimidating for me so I hope you don't mind me just asking the question - I did try the search as your site requested, just no luck.
Anyway, I have a Flame Angel who has been in the tank (180g.) for close to 6 months along with a few clowns, Chromis and a yellow tang - the Flame has been hiding in the reef, not it's usual lively self.  Upon closer inspection it appears to be very pale in the face, kind of off balance, gasping for air...  All the other fish appear to be fine, water parameters all check out.  I know what your thinking - same thing happens to Anthony after a few beers but I am concerned that it may be a disease... <Ah ha, ha ha ha... Actually, that wasn't what I was thinking... but, is anyone hassling your flame angel? It doesn't sound like any specific disease, but if you are concerned, I would isolate this fish in quarantine for observation and potential treatment should the symptoms begin to point to something more certain.>
Please help me.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
<Cheers, J -- >

- Re: Sick Flame Angel -
Thanks for your response Jason <My pleasure.> - interestingly it may be the Yellow Tang who is intimidating the Flame. <Well, I'm glad I asked - I once had a Rusty Angel [Centropyge ferrugata] hassled to death by a tang - there's only so much they can take, and need to graze as much as the tangs do.>  I will do as prescribed. The look has changed but the same excellent service you provide us mariners is still there - excellent!
Regards,
Mike
<Cheers, J -- >

Sponge Muncher?
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
I have a quick question about my flame angel.  I am interested in buying a piece of live rock with some blue sponge on it (I believe that it is encrusting sponge).  Would my flame angel eat it?  I have included a picture. Thanks so much. Sincerely, Andrew Powell
<Well Andrew, it's a really tough call. Just like with corals- the fish may show no interest at all in the sponge, or it may decide to snack on it continuously...Centropyge angels are not heavy sponge eaters, like Pomacanthus and other "full-sized" angels are. They do nibble on some sponge materials, but you're more likely to see them nibble on algae and detritus. You'll just have to make the decision and go for it! Try a small piece of rock first to see if the fish shows any interest in the sponge...It's probably the best way to find out, unfortunately! Good luck with this combination! My personal, gut level feeling? I'll bet that it will work out (but don't hate me if it doesn't!) Regards, Scott F>

Freaky Flame Angel?
I've had this flame angel now for the past 3 months and about a week ago this fish seems transfixed on one side of the tank for some reason. Swimming fast around the tank, eating when food is presented as normal but he continues to return to the same spot. He swims up and down back and forth on the left side pane of glass? It is driving me nuts that this fish does not
behave as he normally did in the tank? What gives? I darkened the side of the
tank thinking the light somehow was showing his reflection and he all of a sudden noticed himself. This however has not deterred him from this behavior. Has anyone ever heard of this behavior and what does it all mean?
<Well, it's really a matter of speculation...Let's face it- fish in captivity simply act differently than they would in nature. Some erratic activity can be a result of water chemistry issues, such as ammonia, low pH, etc., or even a toxin of some sort. Most likely, the behaviour is some sort of reaction to an environmental stimulus. Do check water chemistry just to make sure that nothing is out of whack here>
As I said he acts normally at feeding time but continues this fixation to that side of the tank. Any suggestions on what this is and should I need to be concerned for some reason? I want this to stop as it ticks me off to see this fishes natural behavior change all of a sudden with no apparent reason why he is behaving this way. Please if anyone knows what's going on and how to stop this it would be greatly appreciated. Regards,                                                       Craig
<Well, Craig, as I indicated above, it may be an environmental issue, so do check that out and correct as necessary. Review basic husbandry issues, population/compatibility, lighting, etc. Look beyond the obvious. There is a good chance that this behavior will go away in time, as long as it is not environmentally caused. Keep an eye on things here. Good Luck! Scott F>

SICK FLAME ANGEL
I just purchased a flame angel from the most reputable fish dealer on the net. Fish looked great in the bag, very bright red. Unfortunately, I had to move the aquascape after I released him into the tank. I did not quarantine the fish because it is the only fish in the 75 gallon tank and based on where the fish is from I've never needed to<You always need quarantine even if it is the only fish in the tank. > I now see where I was wrong. After 24 hours, the fish is pale white on the sides and scratching against rocks like a madman. It has no apparent ich spots on fins. Do I need to set up a quick quarantine tank, stress him out further, or is there a chance that him being the only fish in a tank that big he can kick it on his own with time?< Leave him where he is for now but if he does start to show spots he will need to be treated in a separate tank and your main tank will need to go fishless for at least four weeks, a cleaner shrimp would be beneficial > All levels are zero, and he has absolutely no competition. He picks at the liverock, but won't even chase Mysis shrimp. I'm really in a bind because this fish is so beautiful. It's a tiger striped variation of the flame. HELP! <Try feeding him an angel preparation such as the one made by Ocean Nutrition.  Please read through the pages highlighted in blue below for more info on quarantine and the flame angel.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/loricula.htm
Hope this helps, Cody>

Flame bubble eye
my flame angel has developed a large clear bubble over one eye.  It still
swims and eats well.  What is this and will it resolve or kill the fish.
Thanks, Mark
<Due to it being "one-sided" this is likely a result of a mechanical injury ("bump in the night") and not some overt environmental or pathogenic result. Please see here re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/popeyefaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

2/5/03 - Damsels and the Chain of Command / Future Stocking
Creating A Happy Community
Hey there groovy guys & groovy gals:
<Hey Party person! Scott F Groovin' with you tonight!>
Currently, I have a 55gal FOWLR with:
1- Green/Emerald Crab - (Mithrax sculptus) (molted twice in a month);
6- Astraea Snails (w/numerous baby snails - where from?);
1- Black-tailed Humbug - Dascyllus melanurus;
1- Yellow-belly Damsel - Pomacentrus auriventris;
1- Electric Blue Damsel - Chrysiptera cyanea (Had 2 but returned one -incompatible);
1- 3-Spot Domino Damsel - Dascyllus trimaculatus;
In Quarantine tank:
1- False Percula Clown - Amphiprion ocellaris
I am slowly switching over from crushed coral to DSB, BABY!  
<You're gonna LOVE the results of that, dude! Do it right and you'll reap the benefits for a long time!>
Sorry, but I am excited because my first section (1/4 of tank-1 month) already has nice life (worms, bugs, etc.)!
<Sweeeet!>
AAANYWAY, as you can probably guess, Mr. 3-Spot is the boss. Since I want a more docile tank, I will give him back to LFS (all fish are part of the original cycling process, before I knew anything, found your site, or read Bob's book)  Mr. Blue is the next meanest in line, so he will go also.
<A bummer...I hate hearing about people having to return these fishes...but it's a bummer dealing with a tankful of bullies...>
Contrary to what I have read, my Humbug is the most docile of all, along with yellow-belly.  My main question (finally) is this: will the others "step-up" their aggressiveness when the boss is gone?  
<Excellent thought...In fact- I was gonna warn you about that possibility...These types of hierarchies can result in damselfish communities...>
Does there have to be a new boss?
<Probably- that's part of the social dynamic of these fishes....
As far as future stocking goes, can you tell me if any/all of
these are okay (I have read that they are - individually):
*-Pseudochromis fridmani (Orchid Dottyback) or P. aldabraensis (Orange Dotty) or P. porphyreus (Magenta Dotty).
<The fridmani is a reasonably peaceful choice. The P. aldabraensis can be a real tough customer...perhaps the perfect foil for your damsels...>
*-Gobiosoma oceanops (Neon Goby)
*-Archaster typicus (Sand Sifting Star)
<I'd pass- their "sifting" activities can disrupt the fauna and processes that you're trying to foster>
*- Centropyge loricula (Flame Angel) as the crown jewel
If you twisted my arm, I would have to say that the Flame Angel is a must-have.  I am hoping you don't say "then forget everything else", but I will heed your advice.  Thanks for all you do so well, Rich.
<Well, Rich- here's my thinking...If you really, really want the Flame Angel, I'd think about re-locating all of the damsels to another tank...They will not take kindly to any newcomers in this tank, especially an angelfish like this. I'd plan the population of my tank around the "must haves", and work from there. I'd go with the Flame Angel, a fridmani , the neon goby, and the false perc...and that would do it for the fish, IMO. Keep studying the fishes that you are interested in, and make the decision based on their needs. You'll definitely be successful! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

- Adding a Centropyge -
Hey wet web media crew!
<And hello to you. JasonC here...>
I've been in the process of setting up a saltwater community tank for the last 6 months.  It is a 80g with 20g of water in the sump.  It has about 75 lbs of live rock, but I'm constantly adding more.  As far as inverts go, I
have a few shrimp, with my cleaner shrimp being my favorite.  The current fish are 4 torpedo Firefish, a breeding pair of Banggai cardinals and a neon goby.  I have a yellow tang in a hospital tank that is just now finishing up copper treatment for ich.  He is about 3 inches long.  Future additions plan on being a sleeper goby of some sort, and possibly purple Firefish (or related species).
When initially looking for other fish additions, I passed by the dwarf angels due to their pugnacious behavior (except the cherub angel). However, after reading the Conscientious Marine Aquarist so many times, the idea of a flame angel sounds pretty exciting.  Will this fish be too much of a handful for my tank? <I think it would do fine, but do consider this close to your last addition. It's very important to not overstock.> I understand dominance would be established, but I want to avoid injurious attacks to the tang or even other fish. <I think the group will get along fine.> I've read the web section on flames and the faq, but I'm still not convinced this would be a good addition to the tank. <I am.>
I know this is a tricky question and there are no definites, but if you guys could offer any advice from your personal experiences, I would greatly appreciate it. <I'm a big pygmy angel fan. As long as everyone has plenty of places to make a get-away, you'll be fine.>
Thanks,
David
<Cheers, J -- >

Four Flame Angels in an 80 some gallon system?
dear sir i would like to ask a question about stocking densities and compatibility have a 80 UK gallon reef tank with 50 kilo of live rock a mixture of hard and soft corals which are doing very well and have excellent growth rates i have had a flame angel for two years and would like to add three more flame angels all at once these would be the only fish in the tank in your opinion is this likely to work thank you for your advice David
<I do wish this tank was about twice the volume... I would not try these additional dwarf angels. Too likely there will be too much agonistic behavior, stress. If you can, upgrade the size of tank first. Bob Fenner>

Flame angel and Trachyphyllia
Dear WWM
Cheers, my friend>
In the new year I am thinking of trying a Trachyphyllia brain coral.
<very fine, hardy, low light, sand-dwelling (free-living- never place on rock), feed 3-5 times weekly minimum with minced meaty foods... long-lived>
I have one that has been reserved at my LFS for 2 weeks. I am going to pick it up in the new year. However I have a flame angel in my tank. He has been resident for about 5-6 months in my tank
<hmmm... I see. Very good to hear about the hold on the livestock. Goes a long way for acclimatization into captivity (rather that frequent moves on import)>>
I have read that a few other reef keepers have had trouble with this species nipping Trachyphyllia. I also currently have pulsing Xenia, Favia and Caulastrea (candy cane) coral in there.
<yes... all are somewhat at risk of dwarf angels in general>
These have all been left alone by my flame. Is there a chance he will nip my Trachyphyllia?
<no guarantee, alas>
Also I might like to add that I feed my angel on granular food in the mornings.
<A Very concentrated source of food... good to hear>
Its called tetra prima granules (red granules). if you need to wean marine fish onto dried food, this stuff is really excellent (if you guys get it in the USA).
<agreed! An excellent staple and color enhancer. I believe that this product has gone through a marketing evolution of changed names over the years. First it was called Discus bits, then color bits... now prima? Perhaps I'm mistaken. Still... Tetra makes some very good dry foods. Thanks for sharing the tip!>
Here's a pic of the tank by the way. Cheers for all your help. Regards, Jim
<Happy holidays :) Be chatting soon. Anthony>

Flame angel in reef
Thanks for the ph meter answer.  Turns out my system was 8.4 not 8.8. The meter needed calibration and cleaning. Coralline algae was covering one of the electrode ports.  Anyway, all is fine.  I have one question though...  the xenia in my tank is my pride and joy.  However, I've wanted to add a flame angel ever since I've been in this hobby.  I've heard mixed opinions on how reef safe they are.
<most dwarf angels are a decided risk... some more than others>
What are the odds it'll be a problem?  A nip or 2 on my xenia or polyps isn't the end of the world, but a total mauling would not be cool.  Thanks once again.
<hard to say, but easy to test... place small specimens of Xenia with the angel in the QT tank during the 4 week isolation period  before adding to the main tank. A month of untouched Xenia in a bare tank is a very good test. Trade or rotate angels until you find a behaved one. Still no long term guarantee, but a good test/trick. Anthony>

Flame Angel QT decision
Hi Guys:
I have a situation with a Flame Angel amazingly similar to the posts below, although my QT tank is only 10 gallons (too small, I know) and my flame has been eating regularly since go.  She was gorgeous at the 7th day of
quarantine.  Unfortunately, I had to go out of town unexpectedly on business for several days and upon return last night I noticed that one of her eyes has become clouded over (today is day 11).  Obviously, I did a water change last night since water quality has deteriorated over those days while traveling (NO3 was at 5 ppm).  She is still eating and appears very healthy and vibrant except for the clouded eye.   So what to do?   I read these posts on your site and am torn over which path to take:
<Mmm, if this Angel is otherwise okay, appearance and behavior-wise, I'd leave it in quarantine another three days... If it appears to be suffering, the eye becoming more clouded over, I might run it through a pH-adjusted freshwater bath (Please see here re:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm) and place it in your main system. Bob Fenner>

Flame in QT
Bob or who ever is answering tonight:
I have a flame angel that is in QT tank for 2 days tonight I found 2 small
bumps behind the one eye just behind the gill cover they look like pimples
with a small white top. Would a fresh water dip be appropriate or what course
of action should I follow?
<I would just hold off... not to worry here unnecessarily... these bumps may well be due to the quarantine procedure, shipping... and will go with acclimation, adjustment, settling in to your main tank.>
Thank you for the great web site. Pat
<You are welcome my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Flame in QT
Bob
I'm sorry but I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying this could be from
shipping and will cure itself?
<Yes>
Maybe I didn't make myself clear the flame is
in a Qt tank and will keep there for min. of 4 weeks. It didn't have these 2
pimples when brought home 2 days ago. Not sure if this is a problem or not?
<Not likely a problem. I would do nothing "extraordinary". Not treat it chemically. Bob Fenner>
Thanks Pat

Flame Angel QT decision
Hi Bob:
<Hello Jim, I'm just a doctor! Oh, sorry, an old trekkie>
Wanted to write again with a progress report on the Flame. After reading
your response, I decided to try Furan-2 and Epsom salts (1 tbsp per 10
gallon) -- one, because I figured if she had to sit in QT another 3 days
she might as well get antibiotics to be on the safe side, and two, for my
own personal education.    At any rate, she just completed her 15th day of
QT, 48th hour of Furan-2, and 24th hour of MgSO4.   Interestingly enough,
her eye now looks worse rather than better!  It definitely appears to be
Popeye, but I don't understand how the condition can look worse.   All of
her other activity is good -- she's eating well, has typical behavior for a
Centropyge, has vibrant color, and her feces is normal-colored although it
has become somewhat stringy since starting the MgSO4, which I'm guessing is
to be expected.
<Yes>
The directions on my Furan-2 box by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals states that it
is a 4-day regime, not a 5-day as posted several places throughout your
website for Furan-based drugs.   The antibiotic has a 03/2004 expiration
date, and consists of 60 mg Nitrofurazone, 25 mg Furazolidone, and 2 mg
(just a touch) of Methylene Blue per 10 gallons.
I would greatly appreciate some more hand-holding here from you to help her
through this.   I don't see her having a full recovery over the next 48
hours from the remaining two doses of Furan-2 based on how she looks now,
but I could be wrong as I have no experience with Popeye.   Should I follow
through with a second round of antibiotics, or a FW dip with Methylene blue
and follow with placement in the main tank?
<I would do the latter, hope for a self-cure>
   Any explanation on why her
eye looks worse now than better in this situation?    I did a 40-50% water
change 48 hours ago before starting the Furan-2, so water quality is okay.
<No idea. Depends on the root cause of the eye trouble... if it wasn't bacterial in origin, the treatment might not have done much good...>
Thanks for all of your help and a great website.   You have done
immeasurable good and saved a lot of fishes' lives and the ocean's reefs
too by discouraging people from buying inappropriate species.    I look
forward to the day when Flame Angels are routinely farm-raised, which I
understand is fast approaching.
<Yes>
Happy Holidays,
Jim
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel
Bob,
<Steven Pro tonight.>
I just bought an Flame Angel, very beautiful.
<Agreed>
I would like to know what exactly should I feed him?
<I hate to knit pick, but this question should have been asked before you purchased him.>
Right now he is in my quarantine tank. Is this fish reef safe?
<Kind of. It really depends on what you want to keep alive and healthy in your reef display and on this particular fish.>
I was told it may nip at my bubble coral.
<Possible, any LPS, clams, or particularly Xenia are candidates for a nip. They primarily eat algae, though. Do see www.WetWebMedia.com for additional information.>
Thanks
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Flame Angel
I just have a quick question about flame angels. I have seen some that have blue on their back fins and tails, and I was wondering what the blue meant?
<It is the difference between males and females, the males having the blue.>
Is it dependent on sex or locale, or is it just something that some of them get? Thanks for your help! Sorry I didn't address this to anyone, but I didn't know who would be reading it and didn't want to offend anyone!
<No worries my friend. In the future, feel free to address it to the WWM crew. -Steven Pro>

Sick Flame Angel
Hey guys, love your web page.
The strangest thing happened to my Flame Angel the other day. I've had him for over two months in a 135g reef tank. From the second I put him in the tank he has done great. He immediately started eating and has a healthy appetite. I make sure to keep his (and the other fish in the tank) diets varied. I usually mix my foods up between frozen brine shrimp, seaweed (all the different colors), frozen Spirulina, frozen blood worms and Marine A-1 soaked in vitamins. He behaved very normal. By this I mean He was very aware of his surroundings and was constantly grazing the rocks for food.
When I woke up one day about a week ago I noticed he was acting very strange. He was hiding in the back in one place and not grazing like he normally does. He was "swimming in place" kind of like you see sick swordtails do. I also notice he looked a little thin. This surprised me because like I said, he has a healthy appetite, and he had just eaten the day before and looked fine. The only concern I had was that I did dose with Kalk that morning. But, I dripped it extremely slow and when I tested the ph it was at 8.2 like it always is. I've been doing it this way for a long time with no ill affects toward the fish. I have done it before with the Flame in there and he's had no reaction that I'm aware of. I fed the fish and he came out and looked interested but ate very little if anything. He looked like he was in daze.
<Hmm>
Unfortunately I went away on vacation the next day for six days. I figured he would be a goner by the time I came back. Someone came by to feed the fish twice while I was away. I've done this before and find that fish are fine if they have to go with only one or two meals in a week. There is also over 100 lbs of live rock in there.
When I came home, to my surprise he was still alive. However, he was extremely skinny. I mean he's just skin and bones and a head. I'm very confident that they had enough food and all the other fish looked very healthy. Surprisingly His behavior had gone back to normal (grazing etc.) but he remains really skinny above the head and in the body. I've been home 4 days and I've been feeding them and he seems to be eating alright but he looks awful.
<Any other fishes that are "suddenly thin", acting oddly?>
What in the world could have caused this? Could this have something to do with my Kalk dosing? Is this a cyanide thing? Is there anything I can do to help him out?
<Not Kalkwasser, not cyanide... perhaps an internal parasite manifesting itself... I would try augmenting the diet with a vitamin and HUFA supplements, adding some to the water itself weekly... even adding either fresh garlic or one of the "real" garlic prep.s sold in the interest (like Ecosystem's) to foods. Bob Fenner>
Thanks in advance for your help.

Recent flame angels
Hello. I have been hearing quite a few things about
flame angels recently. Especially ones from the
Christmas Islands. My friend has a flame that he has
had for about a month, and it has been eating good and
is quite robust and healthy. I forgot to ask him where
he got it from. Regardless of that however, is the 1
month in captivity in good health a good indicator of
a good specimen, 
<not out of the woods for certain but an excellent and reassuring sign>
even if it was collected from such places as the Christmas islands? I was wondering this because I hear some specimens from the x-mas islands
can be vary from good to bad. Thanks.
<all really an artifact of good versus bad handling in holding and transit. Do read about playing the "deposit" game with retailers here on WWM or in Bob's book The Conscientious Marine Aquarist. Do arrange to have a dealer hold a prospective fish (prepaid/deposit as necessary) for weeks if possible. This will dramatically improve you chance of success with this and any fish. You still must run a full QT period at home though (4 weeks recommended). Best regards, Anthony>

New tank
Hi Bob. 
<Anthony Calfo in your service>
Great page! I moved my 120 reef tank in November to our new house. No losses. The problem is that the behavior of my Flame Angel and Royal Gramma has completely changed. The Angel keeps scaling the walls of the aquarium. Up and down and all around right next to the glass. 
<often caused by a reflection (mirror effect) on the glass from the new aquarium lights and/or room lights... or just as often from weak water flow in the tank (upgrade the tank but not the pumps?)>
The Gramma lays on the sand a lot. Did I give my fish brain damage? 
<no idea here... not even a wise crack <smile>>
Thanks!
<always welcome, Anthony>

Sick Flame Angel
Anthony, Started treatment of the flame angel today, he is hiding a bit (which I expected with the new surroundings) but seems to be taking to the medication just fine. Many thanks! Doug
<very welcome, my friend. Glad we caught you before you used the copper... your e-mail would have been different if we hadn't <wink>. Best regards, Anthony>

What to do with sick flame angel ?
Hi WWM Crew !
<Howdy. Anthony Calfo here thinking that you have a cool name for a Viking... Magnus>
Thanks for such an extremely educational site.
<our pleasure>
However, I have not succeeded to find information to help me identify the disease my new flame angel have picked up (this is my first sickness).
<do get a quarantine tank if you already do not have one for all new/sick fish>
I have a 150 gallon tank, set up since 6 months (beginner), all water values seems ok (e.g. Nitrite=0, Nitrate=1mg/l). I have 1 yellow tang, 1 purple tang, 5 green Chromis, 1 Salarias, 2 baby tomato clowns, 2 blood shrimps and a couple of soft and stony corals.
A week ago a added 2 baby blue "hepatus" tangs and a Flame angel (and 4 new corals). Unfortunately I did not use a quarantine, 
<yes, my friend... this is sadly how many of us learn to appreciate the value of a quarantine tank>
but I keep the new fishes in a sort of cage (3 gallons, with some live stones and macro algae for hiding) within the tank, to be able to do some close observation and easy capture if needed.
<good sometimes for behavioral acclimation (not for infectious diseases of course)>
The Flame angel did show a little cloudy eyes (both sides) after 2-3 days in its new home. I did eat from start, but only very small items (like frozen Cyclops). It is appearing very lazy and it sometimes shrivel like it tries to get rid of something. It does not scratch itself and I can not see anything else abnormal. Now after 6 days the cloudy eyes got worse and it seems also like they swell up (but not as big as some pictures I have seem on pop-eye). 
<perhaps a bacterial infection, do add 1 tablespoon of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) per 10 gallons to try to relive this symptom first (safe with your other fish and coral, yes)>
I have identified a few (4-5) small white dots (like Cryptocaryon) on the body and fins, but they do not seem to increase in numbers. It is still eating but not much. No other fish seem affected.
<Do recall that Centropyge are VERY sensitive to copper... QT the angel and use Formalin in a bare-bottomed hospital tank>
Can you help me identify the disease and recommend a cure ?
<without eatin well... medication through food may not be effective. QT with formalin and antibiotics may be necessary and is recommended>
Thank you so much for the your help
/ Magnus Petersson
<very best regards, my Viking friend. Anthony>

Flame Angel
Dear Bob/Anthony 
<Bob this moment>
Thank you for your reply concerning Nitrates. I may consider a De-nitrator unit for my tank (a further skimmer is a bit impractical, as I have an aqua medic Turboflotor 1000 in my sump). However Denitrators are expensive (165 pounds here in the UK and probably only a temporary solution). Will persevere with water changes for now. 
<Make your own is my suggestion... Please read through the "Nitrate FAQs" and linked files on www.WetWebMedia.com here>
I e-mailed you two days ago concerning my flame angel. He STILL will not take brine shrimp Mysis or formula 2 flake, even when its soaked in BIOVIT. He has been in the main display tank nearly 4 days now. He mouths it (does he take in what he wants when he does this?)
<Maybe some>
, but spits it out. I remember my Regal tang took nearly a week to begin accepting brine and Mysis. The flame readily picks at live rock and the Caulerpa I have. He is very active and shows no white spots or Oodinium velvet marks. 
<Good signs... this specimen is likely nibbling bits of algae, live rock organisms... and worrying you>
Could this just be part of the 'settling down process'? Has anyone else had similar experiences? Please e-mail me at XXXX if you have. 
<Most everyone who has been in the marine hobby has experienced these trials. Keep trying my friend and try not to be overly concerned. Worrying will not change the future. Bob Fenner>
Cheers Your friend from across the pond 
Jim Griffin 

Re: Flame Angel
Dear Bob,
<You got Steven Pro tonight as Bob has fallen victim to a plot hatched by Bill Gates.>
Just a quick question concerning flame angels. I recently purchased one for my Mixed invert and fish system which is 120 US gallonage (72x24x18) and six and a half months old with various soft corals
in it and plenty of live rock. The flame angel gladly picks at the live rock (diatom algae so I'm told), and as you state in your book its diet is made up from half algae. He mouths Brine Shrimp but does
not take it in.
<Very strange as appetite stimulation is one of the only good things about brine shrimp. All in all though, not a very nutritious food. Better to try Mysis shrimp and/or plankton soaked in Selcon and/or Vita-Chem.>
Today I bought some Mexicana Caulerpa which he picks at too (a tactic to get him to feed more). 
He has been in the tank about 36 hours now and just tonight began taking tetra min granules (A freshwater food I know, but I find it great for my marines). Will he eventually take to the brine shrimp? And should I be unduly worried if he has only been in the tank only 36 hours? Also he has about 5 white spots on him (stress I'm sure), but this doesn't worry me unduly. 
<Keep a close eye on this.>
Just wondered if you can enlighten me. Your book proves extremely useful to us guys here in the UK. Thanks for listening. -Jim Griffin 
<Best of luck to you. -Steven Pro

Flame Angel needs help
Hi, Bob, hope you had a good trip, your stand-ins did a great job. 
<Alexander... thank you! We are still standing... either Bob agrees with you or he's too desperate to kick us out just yet...heheh. Anthony>
I've got a sudden problem that I'd like help with even tho I haven't had time to search the site. have to rush to work ASAP, but I woke this am to see my beautiful little flame angel(2-=3") looking awful and he was fine last night. He's been in a QT for ten days and was doing great, eating well, etc. (I may have overfed a little, cuz I had a tiny NH4 spike--to 0.25, with NO2 of 1.5 and NO3= 20 ) so I just did a 25% h2o change,. He's in a 26, alone with two sponge filters, temp=77, SG=1023, pH=8.0..
<minor concern...but maybe not: 8.0 is a low pH assuming your test kit is accurate and not actually reading a bit high (placing the actual lower). Furthermore... unless you tested the chemistry in the night when pH is lowest, it may be lower still. Point is that you have a bit of a low pH that must be corrected... although maybe not the rot cause of the problem. 8.3 pH minimum>
Now he's just hanging out in the bottom corner, vertically, head up, "treading h20", no scratching, white spots, or labored breathing. One eye is slightly cloudy and there is a very faint suggestion of a fine white, powdery film around the head area (VERY faint)..;
<symptoms of turbidity/mucous/web around the head region specifically sometimes signal a Brooklynella infection (nasty). Although somewhat seasonal... it is commonly seen in Hawaiian shipments... which does not rule out your buddy. Do some archive/net homework to see if photos of this symptom look familiar> 
also not feeding for the first time.. was eating like a pig, alternating Spirulina flake with frozen Mysis. What to do? He's my first SW fish, a real beauty, and I' d sure hate to lose him!! Thanks, as always, regards, Al
<whoa... bud! I did not see that one coming! First fish? As in...first you ever bought? I'm hoping I'm mistaken or need more information here. But if correct... how was the quarantine tank cycled, how is the main display cycled and who suggested that this should be your very first fish (I'm going to leave a dead snail in their locked car all day)?!? Please don't misunderstand me... Flame Angels can be quite hardy once established, but they are not a first fish for anyone by any stretch of the imagination (nitrate, copper sensitivity, and so much more). Which reminds me.. any copper added to the quarantine tank? Dwarf angels and Flames in particular are ultra sensitive to copper. Would easily stress or kill your angel. Please follow up with more history/info. Kindly, Anthony>

Flame Angel woes 
Hi, Bob, hope you had a good trip, your stand-ins did a great job.
<Thank you very much. It looks like we will be standing in for awhile longer.>
I've got a sudden problem that I'd like help with even though I haven't had time to search the site. have to rush to work ASAP, but I woke this AM to see my beautiful little flame angel(2-3") looking awful and he was fine last night. He's been in a QT for ten days and was doing great, eating well, etc. (I may have overfed a little, cuz I had a tiny NH4 spike-to 0.25, with NO2 of 1.5 and NO3= 20 ) so I just did a 25% H2O change,. He's in a 26, alone with two sponge filters, temp=77, SG=1.023, pH=8.0. Now he's just hanging out in the bottom corner, vertically, head up, "treading H2O", no scratching, white spots, or labored breathing. One eye is slightly cloudy and there is a very faint suggestion of a fine white, powdery film around the head area VERY faint)..; also not feeding for the first time. was eating like a pig, alternating Spirulina flake with frozen Mysis. What to do? He's my first SW fish, a real beauty, and I'd sure hate to lose him!!
<I hope he is still alive when you get home and that there is time to do anything about it. It sounds like Oodinium to me. It is a very common saltwater disease. Keep up the water changes. Daily would be best to keep the ammonia and nitrite under control and the use of copper would probably be in order. You want to follow the manufacturer's recommendations and probably buy a copper test kit to keep the dosage accurate.>
Thanks, as always, regards, Al
<Hope this email finds you before it is too late, Steven Pro.>

Flame Angel
My Flame Angel has 2 white spots. From when I first noticed them they have
gotten a bit bigger. I do have 2 cleaner shrimp in my tank. All the other
fish have no spots. Should I administer a fresh water dip, garlic treatment,
or administer copper safe? Or should I just rely on the Scarlet Cleaners?
Thanks.
<I would rely on the present cleaners... perhaps augment foods with vitamins, garlic... keep an eye on the specimen. Moving, treating with copper would be more stress/harmful than it's worth at this point. Please read the various sections on marine diseases, the Flame Angel posted on our site: WetWebMedia.com
Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel...
Bob,
I have just recently noticed that my Flame Angel has what looks like a white
cover over one of it’s eyes?? What is it and how can I cure it??
<Likely just a growth/result of a mechanical injury. Please read through the "Environmental Disease" FAQs posted on WetWebMedia.com
Bob Fenner>
Regards,
Keith Broadbent

Re: Numerous Flame Angel losses
Well, the flame was doing ok, then he stopped eating last night.
He was dead this morning. This must be the 10th flame angel I have lost.
Pretty depressing. But today's events have put that in perspective...
I've sworn off flames before, but I think this time is for real...
<Think this is best. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Patrick

Parasitized Flame?
I have a flame angel just moved from quarantine to my 37 gal. tank. He is doing great and eating hearty, but the other day I noticed a small pinhole in the blue portion of his anal fin. The next day it was slightly larger and appeared to have a white parasite looking dot burrowed into the front portion of this hole. This dot is about 3 or 4 times the size of a normal Cryptocaryon. Then today I notice another similar parasite that looked to be burrowed under a scale in his lower tummy, which also has the appearance of a little vertical slice about 1/8". My purple tang is spotless, as is my purple Firefish.
The only other known inhabitants are an impatiens cucumber, cleaner shrimp (which has been spending time with the flame), black serpent star, abalone and 6" bristleworm. I have about 60 pounds of live rock.
<Quite a mix... for your size system...>
Just today I began feeding them garlic oil extract in their food. I also use Marc Weiss Reef Vital DNA product.
Any ideas? 
<About? Your angel may have a parasite, it may just be overly-stressed in its new circumstances and as a consequence of its recent moving... I would not be placing the above "magic potions" in this system (too great a likelihood these will cause the system to collapse... too little chance of them being of any help.) but rely on the cleaner, time going by to clean up this apparent problem.
He showed no problems in the q tank and received freshwater dips before and after.
Thanks as always for your help,
Patrick
Livermore, CA
<Hmm, do start planning on your next, larger system... You've got the signs. Bob Fenner>

Sick Flame Angel
First of all, this WEB site is awesome. I have read more about marine aquaria here than anywhere else. Thanks for your dedication to us hobbyists.
<You're welcome my friend>
I am looking for some advice. I just acquired a beautiful Flame Angel. After a day or so, I noticed one of its eyes was somewhat cloudy and bulging more than the other. Now it has been a week since acclimation to the tank and its other eye is now cloudy and bulging. I have also noticed reduced activity. It tends to stay in a crevice or hole most of the time. It does eat, but not as much as it did a few days ago.
<Mmm, likely "just" the rigors of capture, handling/shipping showing here...>
Am I destined to loose this beauty? Or is there something I can do to save it?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Walt
Aquarium (volume)
80 Gallons
Aquarium up time
10 days (transferred contents from my 55 gal)
<Yowser, this is a very short, too small a time to wait before placing an angelfish...>
Filtration, pumps and heaters.
Wet/Dry system w/bio balls (brand ?) 
<I would pull these out, irregardless of make. See: http://wetwebmedia.com/wetdryfaqs.htm>
Protein skimmer (brand ?) Heater is unplugged
<Why? Set the thermostat and plug it in... to prevent dips in temperature... won't come on if water is warmer...>
Lighting
1-40 watt actinic blue and 1-40 watt Spectrum V
Lighting duration
Blue for about 14 hours and the white about 13 hours
Tank residents
How many of each fish and how large are they?
2-Tomato Clowns, 1-large 5"-6" 1-regular 3"-4"
1-Yellow Tang, full size
1-Neon Damsel, large 5"-6"
<This is a big one!>
1-Blue Damsel, 3"-4"
1-Royal Gramma Dottyback, 1"-2"
1-Flame Angel, 2"-3"
1-Bristle Star, 6"
1-Red Armor Star, 5"
1-small orange star, 3" Not sure what kind.
5-invertebrates
Filter media or cartridges change
Change cotton in overflow box 1-2 times a week
Dump out protein skimmer as needed
Water Changes
5-10 gallons per month (haven't done a change on this tank yet)
Temp
80-85 (it's been hot in San Diego)
<We live there/here... Mira Mesa>
Latest water test results.
Specific gravity - 1.024
pH - 8.1
Ammonia - 0.0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5 or less
<No live rock? I would place some of this and a vitamin preparation in the water once a week, and on the fish's foods... and otherwise hope for the best. See you at the local marine club do's. Bob Fenner>

What do you think? (Flame Angel, Cooks, Chip)
Hi Mr. Fenner
Once again I write you for your opinion. I read in your FAQs about
flame angels, not being great from the Christmas islands, and Marshall
islands in the last little while. But what about the Cook islands, My
LFS had three, and now has one left from there at the moment. It's been
at the store now for about three weeks, and is in great shape, and
active. 
<A great source location... only one source there... Chip and Claire Boyle... very qualified collectors, shippers... excellent quality>
I 've stopped by a few times to see how the little guy is doing,
and he's always been very active, in great looking shape, and very
attentive to his surroundings. I, like you, am in love with this
particular fish, and want one a lot, but I'm worried because I've had one
once before, and he didn't last more than two weeks after I got him
home. (Got a very bad case of Ick, and didn't quite pull through the
treatment), So I've been hesitant, and just keeping an eye on this guy
for a little while. I've gone over all of what you've written on your
site about the upkeep of these little beauties, and can't really think
of anything I did wrong with the last guy. I'm hesitant because they
aren't the cheapest, and also, and most important, I don't want to be
the cause of his demise. But as I said, I think they are just gorgeous
little fishes, and would really like to have one.
<I would buy a C. loricula from the Cooks w/o worry. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel troubles, copper?
"flame angel, question" he has got cloudy eye! I have a U.V.
sterilizer, and everything's running fine, just my flame starting to act up!
why?
<Maybe a "bump in the night"?>
my changing juvenile emperor angel doesn't take a liking to him very
much? 
<Angelfishes will fight if not enough room, cover...>
I'm just worried that he is not gonna make it for very long? should I
douse the tank with CopperSafe? any input in this matter would be of the
utmost importance to me.:) thanks again rob!
<Why put in Coppersafe? You need to start back at the beginning... read over the Marine Angels sections and FAQs files stored on our website: www.WetWebMedia.com and the "Disease" sections as well. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel
Hello Bob. Yet another question from this young reef keeper. I recently
added a Flame Angel to my reef tank. He has been in there for a week and is
constantly picking at a sebae anemone and a plate coral. Both are starting
to look bad in the areas he has picked at. My wife said she also saw him
peck at my toadstool mushroom. What a devil. I understand there was this
risk with this type of fish. Is there anything I can do to prevent this.
<Hmm, some specimens are incorrigible, or become this way it seems... I would try adding some "fresher" live rock that has obvious macro-algae, sponge material, tunicates on it... and continue to make the food offerings wider and more frequent... and culture some other "tasty" varieties of live macro-algae, otherwise offer them directly as fresh or prepared material (Caulerpa, Nori algae... in strips from sheets...)>
I have tried feeding a little extra. We he eventually stop or is this a decision of keeping him or corals. Will the plate coral or anemone's
destroyed areas recover?
<If not too damaged, and your system is otherwise in good shape, yes. Bob Fenner>

Copper and flame angel
Dear Bob:
I tried to purchase one of the three copper test kits you mentioned in your last email. For some reason here in Iowa they are non-existent! 
<This is Iowa as in a State of the U.S.A. right?>
I've ordered a Salifert online and am waiting for it to come. The fish have been treated in copper for 2 weeks as of tomorrow. I took a sample of my 2 hospital tanks water to the LFS and he just called me with the results. He is using something called "dry tabs" and said one of the tanks is measuring between .25 and .5. He said that tank is okay. The other one with my flame angle is measuring .6. He asked me if she was breathing okay and I said yes. Upon hanging up the phone a looked at her very closely and noticed that one of her eyes has a "milky" hazy look to it. 
<Yes... maybe from a too high copper contact...>
I called him back and he said to treat with Melafix if it gets worse. What should I do if anything for this poor fish? Is it going blind from the copper being too high? 
<Just wait... the copper will come down on its own accord... and the eye will repair itself>
I just added about a quart of saltwater to the tank to dilute it down a bit. Should I stop treatment on the hospital tanks tomorrow (2wks) and do water changes to get the copper out? 
<IMO yes... the "spots" are no longer evident?>
Thanks for the help, as I'm really worried about my flame.
Janey
<Bob Fenner>

Re: Copper and flame angel
Dear Bob:
I can't thank you enough for the quick reply:) Yes, that's Iowa as in the
state of in the USA.....I'm part of the corn belt crew that depends on you!
<I'll be there, here.>
I will start doing water changes tomorrow in both tanks as the spots are
gone. I plan on leaving them in the hospital tanks for at least 2 more weeks
in hopes that the "Ick" will die off in the main tank after one month with
no fish....again thanks for your help when I needed it most!
Janey
<You're welcome my friend. Bob Fenner>

Flame angel with anemone and/or feather dusters
Dear Bob,
Yes it's me again. I just re-read the Flame Angel piece prior to shopping for one.
<Always a good idea to study up ahead of investing>
It sounds like I should not plan on this fish if I am to have an anemone and/or feather dusters.
Is this correct?
Howard
<Like all else, a calculated/able risk... If you have Clownfishes... they would likely guard the Anemone... and larger species of Featherduster Worms in a system with plenty of live rock? The balance of likelihood would then largely sway in your direction. Bob Fenner>

Flame, Angels
Hey again,
Well the flame started to rip the butterflies up so I moved him into another tank. I am going to add a queen or French angelfish instead because they inhabit the Caribbean like the 4 eyed butterflies and the royal Gramma in my tank do too. 
<Sounds like a very good plan>
Another problem I am experiencing is that my brown algae has turned into green algae.
<No problem here... actually a good sign>
The problem is that it is really hard to scrape of the tank sides. Are there any animals I can add to get rid of this algae.
<A few... the Ctenochaetus Tangs are my first choice>
Also, I have several white "blobs" on my tank sides. they are small and look like a curled up worm. Do you have any idea what this is and can it be harmful to my fish?
Thank You,
Jonathan Pac
<Likely some white blob worms... and not likely harmful... "they too will pass". I'd ignore them for now, and focus on keeping up filtration/aeration/circulation.
Be chatting, Bob Fenner>

Fish
Hey,
To replace my tang I bought three 4 eye butterflies. They are doing well and love to school back in forth in my tank. The only problem is that my flame angel is nipping at them. I tried adding and moving my live rock but he still is aggressive. If it continues I am going to trade him in at the LFS. My question is would another kind of angel be better? I am also thinking that if I got another flame it wouldn't have an established territory so maybe it wouldn't nip.
Please send me your thoughts or opinions.
Jonathan Pac
<How big a system is this? How long has this been going on? Is there any actual evidence of actual damage this Flame Angel is doing? Are these Four Spot Butterflyfishes (Chaetodon quadrimaculatus)? If no real harm is obvious, I wouldn't be overly concerned... but if these are Four Spots you may be in for trouble in trying to maintain them...
Bob Fenner, who would not trade in the Flame Angel, or get another species of pomacanthid.>

Cyanide?
Hey Bob
I have a new flame angel that has been exhibiting some strange behavior. 
Since day one my girlfriend kept telling me that he was brain damaged and
maybe she is right. 
I bought him by the book: a store that I trust, he lived in their tank for
10 days, he was eating (but wasn't a pig at all) and he and his tankmates
visually looked good.
I drip acclimated him to a reduced salinity 18 gal hospital tank, (also
freshwater dipped him for 9min) where he lived for two weeks and than drip
acclimated him to my 90gal FOWLR. My 90 has great water quality --no
measurable anything-- and the hospital tank was kept clean with consistent
water changes and never measured more than the smallest trace on my test
kits of any of the nitrate, nitrite or ammonia levels. He never had any
obvious signs of disease and ate Formula 2, Prime Reef, and mostly Dwarf
Angel Formula but still was never an exuberant eater. 
The strange behavior I mentioned started as soon as I got him home (never
saw this in the store tank). He kept swimming moderately fast around every
container he was kept in. He would swim with his mouth out of the water,
his back also out and sometimes briefly would slide on his side. He did
this in the acclimation bowl I use, the freshwater dip bucket and than in
the hospital tank. At first I thought I had made up some "bad" water but it
tested out normal, I had used Prime to dechlorinate it and it was 3 days old
and the temp was 78. The water was well oxygenated with two power heads
The behavior never went away, but other than that he seemed healthy so I put
him in my 90gal. He hid for the first day 1/2 and than skulked around the
back of the live rock. He has been rapidly opening and closing his mouth
like a fish that was gasping for breath but he isn't gasping for breath--his
gills are not involved like they have been in fish that I have seen gasping
for breath. Also he isn't at the surface or in a stream of water like I
would expect a fish to do if it was trying for more oxygen.
Today he appears very weak and hasn't eaten. I expect he will die soon from
the way he looks.
Now that I have written you a book, my question is: is this cyanide
poisoning symptoms? Or could it be something else. I felt I did everything
by the book. Sucks to do that and lose a fish anyway. 
Thanks, Rich M. 
>>
Thank you for your carefully crafted message. I have seen way too much of what you so aptly describe, and though it (the cause) is not cyanide, or an economic poison per se, the results are often as dramatic and destructive as you relate.
The last 2-3 years the quality of Flame Angels (Centropyge loricula) has seen serious decline... and have seen direct evidence of this in the principal source of this species in the wild ... Has everything to do with "human" effects of economics and expediency and little to do with the fish itself. Let me explain.
With the decline (perceived and real) of the Yen (Japanese currency), a good deal of the fishes that used to traffic through their part of Asia (and Asian influenced markets) stopped, dropped severely... The fisher-folk in the collection end kept catching, selling what they could to western markets, and there has/had been a great increase in availability of this animal at much-reduced prices...
However, something else happened, factored in with all this... The processes of handling the specimens was altered... Due to less money, and apparent "need" to house, acclimate, in a few words, properly handle C. loricula, the species has been relegated to being "stored" in plastic cups, in bags hung off of the collectors boats/anchorages in anticipation of "gathering" by intermediaries for immediate shipping internationally... BTW the Marshall Islands species are generally MUCH better and less variable in quality than the Christmas Islands ones.
The long and short of all this is that Flames are no longer a usually great aquarium fish species... they're too beat from the traumas described above to have much historical survivability... Unless you can be assured of having an initially healthy specimen (like waiting as you did from the Dealer's), I would seek out another dwarf angel type.
Bob Fenner, disgusted at times.

Re: cyanide
Thanks for the reply, kinda restores my faith in my LFS, but not in the
import industry. Which of the Dwarf Angels are hardy at the moment? How
about Asfur Angels? 
Thanks Bob
Randy 
>>
Well, the Asfur is definitely not a Dwarf, but it is fabulous, particularly nice are the ones imported/bred in the orient... and do look on our site for a rating of all the Angel Groups. Home Page 
Bob Fenner

Flame Angel
Hi, I have had a Flame Angel for about a month in a 30 gallon fish-only tank. 
When I got it readily accepted Pygmy Angel Formula. Now I noticed he doesn't 
swim around as much. And when he swims he leans toward his right side. Can 
you help me? He has no bullies in his tank. Thanks
>>
Hmm, it may well be that the "bully" in the tank is the Flame Angel (Centropyge loricula) itself... A thirty is too small a system for this species... 
Do you have much live rock? This would help to make the system more acceptable and psychologically fit... otherwise, if you can't move the animal to larger quarters, all you can do is wait and hope it adjusts to being in your thirty.
Bob Fenner

Sick Flame Angel :(
Bob,
I've had a flame angel that has been very happy for at least 3 weeks. My wife and I went out of town on Saturday and returned Sunday evening. I noticed that he was acting a little strange and by Monday morning he had ich. I plan on moving him to a hospital tank and treating him with CopperSafe.
He's in a 100gal with a mandarin, 4 cleaner shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis) and 3 turbo snails. 
Ammonia 0 
Nitrite 0 
Nitrate about 10 
pH 8.4
SG 1.023
RSB skimmer
Amiracle wet/dry
5 gal weekly water changes using Instant Ocean
This tank has been set up since December and every thing seems to be dong 
great except for the ich and lack of appetite. I'm getting a little 
worried he's not eating but still active, will he survive? Also, what are the recommended levels for the copper treatment?
>>
Hmm, where will you move this fish to when it is apparently cured? Coppersafe for a couple of weeks should cure the Angel... but what about the ich in your main system? Use a test kit and shoot for 0.20 to 0.30 ppm total free copper.
Bob Fenner

Re: Sick Flame Angel :(
Bob,
The ich seems to have cleared up but now he's not eating and looking a
little thin... I'm getting really worried now, we really like the little
guy.
I was hoping that he'd do ok in the quarantine tank for a few weeks while I
left the main tank void of fish to let the ich eventually die. Anyway is
there anything I can do to spark some interest in food? I've tried Nori,
flake and frozen brine shrimp.
Thanks for all the excellent advice/help
Scott 
>>
<Yes, do try soaking the intended food in a vitamin preparation (like Selcon, Micro-Vit, even human liquid "baby vitamins") for a few minutes before offering it... keep the light down... and if/when you're pretty sure the ich is gone, place some clean (no ich) live rock for it to nibble on, hide in.
Bob Fenner>

Sexual dichromatism in Flames
Hi Bob. Two questions for you.
1) You mentioned in your last email that the unpaired fins of the male flame
angel are much blue streaked than the female. How about much sharper end tip
of the unpaired fins of the male as compared to the female. How true is this.
2) Certain portions of my leather mushroom are turning yellow. Any clues to
this? (The rest of my corals and fishes are doing fine)
Thanks a lot.
>>
Better, larger specimens of Centropyge loricula males have discernibly larger, longer unpaired (dorsal, anal) fins... but females that are in better shape can have ones that are even longer... If they're about the same age (oh boy) the males are quite smaller... and females from the same area and age will be more orange on their sides... But, once again, you can't tell how old, or where (generally) yours are hailing from... Take a look at a number of them in books and in person... you'll see the difference relative to the blue markings...
The color on your leather may be nothing... but I would check your water quality, especially alkalinity... it may be drifting low.
Bob Fenner

Losing Flames
Bob:
I'm a religious reader of your Q&A column and I've written you before
regarding my "small" set up which has been up for 8 months. It's a 20 gallon
long with about 15 - 18 lbs. of live rock (been there since the beginning)
it's nicely cured with all kinds of micro algae and plants growing and
flourishing. I have an A-Miracle 500 trickle filter with built in protein
skimmer running full blast and two 300 powerheads for circulation. I also
have a Skilter filter with the filter media and skimmer removed. About three
months ago I put one lb. of live sand and a small live rock inside the
Skilter "sump cavity" and put two Mangrove plants, propped in Styrofoam in,
they are flourishing. I have one button polyp, one yellow polyp, one green
mushroom and one "trumpet" coral all doing quite well. As far as livestock,
I've had the same Australian Yellowtail Damsel for five months and it is
doing extremely well. Here's my problem, I love Flame Angels. Each time I
try to add one, which has been four to date, they don't survive. In the
latest try, last month, the fish just died after four days. After two days
it got lethargic and hid under a rock, but other than that there were no
signs any of disease. I do a10% water change every two weeks, my "levels"
always check out good. I add CombiSan every week and a calcium supplement
with each water change. Why do you think I don't have success adding the
Flame Angel? All else is doing fabulously well! Thanks in advance for your
time and thoughts.
Steve Eliot
>>
Hmm could be bunk specimens... there's been a spate of them the last couple of years out of the Marshall's and even Christmas Islands... But my real monies either on the tank being too small and/or the ill-effects of the calcium and Combi- combination... Take it easy with this stuff... if you have the supplement habit bad enough (no alkalinity to speak of is a good indication)... do occasionally (like every three months), pretty much change ALL the water in your system. This will rid much of the "Dead Sea" effect of additions... 
Bob Fenner

Feeding Flames
> I just received a very large livestock order from FFExpress and wanted
> your input on the optimum diet for two of the new arrivals. One is a
> Flame Dwarf Angel and the other is a Bicolor Parrot. Also, is the angel
> really reef safe? (I know the Parrot isn't - he's in a large fish-only
> tank).
<The Flame (Centropyge loricula) will eat most any dried, frozen/defrosted,
>freeze-dried, fresh food.... once it gets settled in... and really derives a
>great deal of its nutrition from materials in/on your live rock....
> The Bicolor parrot (it is a juvenile of white, orange with black bordered
>bars I take it) are not of my favorite "top three of ratings" group of
>captive marines... it may consume some dried food, "algae stones" you can
>make... but do provide live rock, and peaceful tankmates for this fish...
>Bob Fenner
I don't understand what you mean by 'algae stones.'>>
These are "people made" rocks that have had a mash of foods applied and dried on them... sometimes peas et al... to get enough greens to herbivorous aquatics... Stephen Spotte and my books have details on making these.
Bob Fenner

Sexing Flames
Thanks for replying. Anyway, how do you differentiate between male and female
flame angels? The one I intend to get is from Hawaiian and don't think the guys
from the shop knows how to differentiate. Please describe in details.
Thanks a lot.
>>
Hmm, a little hard to describe... but unmistakable once you see both a male and female: the rear portions of the unpaired fins (dorsal and anal) are much more blue streaked in the males... Take a look in a reference work...
Bob Fenner

Mixing Flames
Hi Bob. Just one question. Can there be two Flame angels in a 75 gallon tank?
Please advice. Thanks
>>
Yes, but just... do try to get two females or just one male... Ask the folks who pick them out for you... there are subtle differences in degrees of color, finnage... depending on source. If you can afford it, try to get the Hawaiian ones... otherwise, Marshall Island...
Bob Fenner

Dwarf Angels
Thank you for having this wonderful service. I have this question, 
could I place 3 Flame Angles (Centropyge loricula) in a 75 gallons tank 
w/longnose and raccoon butterflies; yellow, Naso, Sailfin tangs, Picasso 
trigger, puffer, and a yellowhead Jawfish.
Also, in which order should I place this fish to minimize fights. 
Thanx again.
>>
Wowzah! You can have all these fishes... only if you get a bigger system! I would actually just stock the Dwarf Angels... and maybe the Jawfish... or just one of the Angels, and the other fishes... but not the Picasso Trigger. Some of these Rhinecanthus aculeatus are peaceful... but not a good bet as it gets older/larger...
And all will not fit comfortably in a 75...
Bob Fenner, who will gladly give you his views on stocking order when you narrow down your choices in livestock.