Flame Angel will not eat while being treated... coppered  3/1/08
Hi guys,
I bought a flame angel fish and placed him in my 10 gallon quarantine tank. He was doing well and eating every type of frozen meaty foods that I fed him in addition to eating algae from a clip that I put in the tank daily. He was eating voraciously for over a week and now unfortunately he has come down with a case of Ich.
I am treating the tank with Copper but now he has stopped eating. He hasn't eaten for 3 days and he seems to be hanging in with the copper treatment but I'm afraid he'll die from starvation while I am trying to cure the Ich.
Do you have any advice for how I can get him to eat? I have tried putting some food in the tank but he just lets it float by and does not go after it like he did before.
I'd hate to lose this fish! Any advice you could offer would be much appreciated!
Thanks,
Lynne
<The copper... is mal-affecting this fish... causes it to go off-feed... I would NOT pre-emptorily copper Centropyge, Angels period... See WWM re Copper use, poisoning... I would summarily dip/bath and move this Flame to the main/display tank. Bob Fenner>

My flame angel seems to have fin rot/tail rot and the sides of his body is looking a bit whitish. Using WWM  3/1/08
I can't catch him to get him out the tank and into a QT. I have other fish in the tank, live rock (he keeps hiding in it of course) and some soft corals. mostly mushrooms and Zoanthids..
I know I really need to get him out of the tank but really don't seem to be able to do so. My question: If I have to treat the whole tank with Maracyn Two what will it do to the corals and live rock?
<Mmm, don't want to put antibiotics in your main display, no>
I keep seeing that it doesn't harm inverts but that's all I've seen except that you really should try a QT.
Thanks so much -
Kelly
<.... read: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Part. the areas on Antibiotic, Antimicrobial use. RMF>

Flame Angel QT question 02/220/2008
Hi guys,
<<Hello, Andrew here>>
I just purchased a Flame Angel for my 55 gallon tank w/invertebrates and tons of live rock. The tank's been up and running for 4 years and this fish is the last one I plan to add to the tank already inhabited by an ocellaris clownfish, royal Gramma and a Sixline wrasse.
<<Ok, sounds good>>
I have a ten gallon QT with live rock in it and usually keep my new arrivals in it for a full month before I transfer them into my main tank.
<<I would remove the live rock from the quarantine tank as this has the capacity to harbour parasites and could be passed along to other fish added to the quarantine tank>>
Since the flame angelfish is my largest fish and likes more space, what time frame do you recommend I keep it in my QT before transfer? So far it is eating well and is swimming normally.
<<Sounds great. Stick to your one month routine, this is an adequate amount of time, and recommended, for quarantining fish>>
Thanks for your advice. Lynne
<<Thanks for the questions. Hope this helps. A Nixon>>

Sick Flame Angel, no useful info.... Not following directions in writing us  – 02/07/08
I bought a Flame Angel 1 1/2 weeks ago. After 1 week in a QT he started to develop what looked like some small white blotches on the transparent parts of his tail and fins. Small at first and getting larger after a few days.
<Mmm, may be just/simple residual effect from capture, handling...>
He now has a covering over his eyes and they look like they may be bulging out slightly but it may be the fungus covering them. His color has also faded. I contacted the dealer I purchased him from when I first noticed the blotches and he thought it may be Ick. It did not look like any examples of Ick I could find. It appeared more like a fungus to me. I contacted another dealer who agreed that it was probably a fungus. I have been treating him with an antibiotic for 4 days, Maracyn 2,
<Do watch your nitrification...>
and although he is still active he is not feeding and is not improving any. I have done 2 water changes and checked the water daily and all the readings are good.
<...? Of no use... need data>
Any help you may be able to give me will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Shawn
<... Okay... read on WWM re Crypt, Centropyge loricula... Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://wetwebmedia.com/flameangdisfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel eating problems  - 1/24/08
Hi Bob and gang,
<Joe>
I’m concerned about a Flame Angel that I purchased about a month ago. I checked some of the articles on the web site, but I couldn’t find one that fit my exact situation. I have a 135 G Reef tank (other fish, all in the tank over a year, 3 Percula Clowns, Yellow Tang, Hippo Tang, Gramma & Coral Beauty) with about 100 lbs of live rock. When the Flame was introduced about a month ago he adapted quickly, almost immediately grazing the rocks and showing no outward signs of stress. There also was no real aggressive behavior from the other tank mates (including the Coral Beauty). With in a week the Flame was starting to eat some of the frozen brine shrimp (I usually add Vita-chem and garlic) and Spirulina flake food. A week later he was aggressively going after food I put in the tank. It was all good. Unfortunately, I’ve noticed some recent changes. The Flame has stopped grazing the rock and appears to have what can only be described as swollen lips.
<Mmmm, not good>
He also seems to have his mouth constantly open.
<Very bad>
The odd thing is that he still aggressively comes to the surface for food (like the frozen brine shrimp), but I noticed he’ll then swim off and spit it all out? Any clue as to why this would be happening? Is it a sign of a certain disease? I’ll admit, the Flame Angel is one of my favorite fish, but did you ever have that one fish that you never seem to have much success with? For me that’s been the Flame Angel. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe
<This Loricula was very likely damaged in collection, holding, shipping... not uncommon with ones from the Marshalls... Its prognosis is dim. Don't know much else to state that is pertinent, useful... Maybe contact your dealer so they can in turn notify folks (not likely) "up the line"... Not likely "something catching" here... Bob Fenner>

Re: Flame Angel eating problems - 1/24/08
Thanks Bob. That's kind of what I suspected, but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
<Am sorry to not be able to offer more... compassion, reason/input to save this animal... I wish there was a simple/r means of making known what little I have experienced re this species... Suffice it to state that I have collected it myself in a few countries... and know of its history in our interest quite well... BobF>
 

Parasite Identification... Flame angel... perhaps env.  12/10/07 We are very new to marine aquariums, we started up our first tank 3 months ago and have found lots of very useful information on your site! First off our water perimeters: <parameters> Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-around 20, <Borderline high> KH-9, SG-1.025 We haven't had any problems so far until today when we noticed our flame dwarf angelfish has a visible raised white spot near her tail fin. <I see this> She has been in the tank for two weeks now and is eating well, behaving normally (as far as we know), she is not itching at all and is very active all day swimming around the tank, breathing seems normal. We have attached a photo, maybe that will help, the slight white patch you see above the anal fin is just a reflection of light, the only patch on the fish is the big one at the top of the base of the tail fin. We do not have a quarantine tank, as we live in a very small apartment in Amsterdam and don't have any space but we recently got a 15 gallon tank that we were planning to turn into a refugium today but maybe we could turn that into a hospital tank if necessary?? Do you think we need to treat our fish immediately? <Mmm, I would not. I would go ahead and add this tank as a/the refugium though> And what with? Freshwater dip? We have invertebrates in the tank (shrimp, crabs, feather dusters, cocoa worms) and don't want to harm them by using any copper based medication in the main tank. We have searched on the web for identification and cant find clear information or a definite identification. What do you recommend we do? Thanks for any help you can give us, much appreciated!!! Jess P.S. Your website is amazing, thank you guys for getting us this far!! <This mark does not appear to be pathogenic-derived... Perhaps is resultant from a physical injury some weeks prior... very common. If it were me, mine, I would strive to improve the environment (e.g. eliminate the NO3) via the refugium... mud/sand, macroalgae culture, DSB there. This spot will clear in time with improvement of the system. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel with Damaged Fins Mystery 10/27/07
Greetings,
<Salutations>
I recently purchased a flame angelfish from an on-line retailer that I had good luck with before. However, the fish arrived with pectoral fins about half the size they should be for this sized fish (about 3.5" long).
<Interesting... genetic? Damage?>
The fins also have a very slight black line at their edge.
<Mmm, some of this can be natural... Centropyge loricula do have some black edging in some "races"... geographic difference...>
I thought at first this could be formalin burn as I have seen this with flame angels exposed to formalin.
<Mmm, possibly>
I called the retailer and they assured me that formalin is not used on any fish. I have no reason to doubt them as they have been very straightforward in the past. They also stated that the fish looked fine when it left their facility. I next thought ammonia burn, but after checking the water in the shipping bag it had very little ammonia (about .25 ppm, pH 7.6).
<And the shortened pecs would not occur to be burnt back this much, this quickly... without the demise of the animal assuredly>
The fins are relatively smooth at the edge, just really short.
<Again... perhaps a heritable characteristic. Happens>
I am thinking the fish arrived at the retailer in this condition and they just didn't notice.
<Likely so>
In any event, the fish is acclimating well, eating on the second day in quarantine. However, I am concerned about possible ammonia exposure previously that could lead to this fish declining later on.
<Such damage should be adjusted for within weeks... Like ourselves, fishes regenerate blood cells quite regularly, quickly... Other ancillary challenges are made up for about as rapidly>
Given the effort and time required for quarantining a fish, I don't want to start with a fish that is doomed down the road. What are your thoughts? Will the fins ever grow back to normal size.
<Mmm, not if genetically determined, no>
What should I lookout for?
<General health, good behavior... I would not be overly concerned, and don't consider this specimen "doomed", if as you state it appears to be acclimating well... I would just "chalk up" the small paired fins and enjoy this fish>
Thanks Much,
Greg
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel Scratching... English???   9/1/07
I've had a flame angel in a bare bottom quarantine tank for about a week.?
<? I don't know, have you?>
Tank parameters OK, ammonia 0, nitrite 0.1 (watching to go down to 0), nitrate 10-15 ppm, pH 8.2 (has dropped as low as 7.9).? Fish is doing well and eating.?
<What is with the ? marks?>
However, occasionally fish will scratch on objects using corner of mouth, not gill plates or sides.? Fish will shake and shudder right after scratching and then continue on normally.? Happens about once an hour.? No rapid breathing.? Did not do this for first 5 days.? I've been treating with 0.5 ppm Cupramine
<Too high if this is free cupric ion being measured, and the cause of the odd behavior here...>
for one week as prophylactic (I know this is controversial), no signs of cryptocaryon at all.? Started treatment with Metronidazole and Praziquantel for other possible gill/skin parasites.? Seems to have helped, but fish is still scratching on corner of mouth less frequently.? Nothing visible in that area.? Any suggestions?? Do I keep in quarantine until all scratching stopped.? What if scratching doesn't stop, but fish seems fine otherwise after two weeks of quarantine?? Don't want to lose this fish as it is a large specimen with great coloration.
Thanks
Greg
<I can't figure out what you are getting at. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/loricula.htm
and the linked files above. BobF>

Re: Flame Angel Scratching. Source of ???   9/4/07
Well, I'm not exactly sure what happened.?
<Greg, are you keying all these question marks? Is this just artifactual... an element of our software?>
I didn't type any extra question marks, must have been changed by e-mail program.?
<Oh! Thank you for this... Yes... some other ghost/s in da mahcheen>
In any event, the flame angel has passed on.? I followed every instruction to the letter, but whatever parasite it was, Cupramine had no affect on it whatsoever.?
<Mmm...>
I kept the dose at 0.5 ppm exactly as Seachem instructs, but 10 days into quarantine the fish's scratching became very frequent along with increased respiration.? Also, fish began bobbing head at surface and opening gills over air bubbles from airstone.? Water parameters were all OK.? No visible signs of parasites were ever apparent.? No white dots, fuzz, etc...? Fish looked perfectly healthy and was eating, but exhibited constant scratching and rapid breathing.? If it was Brooklynella, how are you suppose to treat that without using formalin, since formalin is toxic and will kill the fish also.?
<Immersion baths are best... see WWM re both the protozoan and formalin>
This was my first attempt to get a fish through quarantine, didn't make it past 10 days.? Just about ready to throw in the towel on the hobby.? It's no fun watching fish refuse to eat, get sick, and die.? Any idea what this could have been?? Do I need to dump the quarantine tank and start over?
<Yes... I would likely not treat a fish simply for scratching, nor for apparent spots... unless sure of a diagnosis... Isolation solamente... BobF>
Thanks,
Greg

Re: Flame Angel Scratching... ???????? 9/5/07
Bob,
<Greg>
Well here's another lesson learned.? As I wrote previously, I had a flame angel that was doing fine in quarantine for about 10 days with Cupramine at 0.5 ppm, then started scratching on objects, breathing heavy, opening gills over bubbles, and constantly bobbing head above water.? I was sure it was some form of a parasite that copper was not affecting.? So I tried a formalin bath (30 minutes at a 250 ppm dose, 1 ml/gal).? Turns out this was way to
<too>
high dose (even though I read everywhere that this was the dose for a short formalin bath).? Fish never recovered and simply laid down on the tank bottom after returning to QT.? I must say that stuff is toxic.?
<Oh yes... a powerful biocide... kills all life... crosslinks peptides... Why it's used to preserve dead humans, fishes even...>
I didn't think a low dose of 1 drop per gallon would be effective during a 30 minute bath, hence the lethal 1 ml/gallon dose.? I know? better from now on.? Now on to the next hard learned lesson.? After placing a coral beauty in the same QT tank, the fish began doing the exact same things as the flame angel had (bobbing head above water, etc...).? So on the off chance it was something wrong with the water, I began heavy carbon filtration.? Within hours, the fish began acting normally and is now picking at some Nori constantly.? Is it possible the Cupramine was irritating the fish's gills causing the erratic behavior??
<Yes... as previously stated...>
I did up the concentration to about .7 ppm for a few days (SeaChem says no more than 0.8 ppm) trying to eradicate this "phantom" parasite that I never saw.? Also, ammonia stayed at 0 per a Seachem ammonia alert? monitor the whole time, but nitrites did increase to 1.0 ppm at times, not sure why.?
<You're joking... posted on WWM>
Is the Seachem ammonia alert? monitor reliable?
<Not IMO>
If so, could the increased nitrites have caused the erratic behavior??
<Could>
I'm really not sure what caused the problem, but would like to know so I can avoid the same problem in the future.?
<Knowledge... by reading likely>
Lastly, I have a lemon peel angel that was exposed to the same high levels of Cupramine and nitrites.? He initially was picking at things in the QT tank, but then stopped and just swam around for a few days.? After carbon filtration he is now swimming around much more, but has yet to start picking at things again.? If he was affected by the Cupramine or nitrites, will he recover if water conditions are improved?? Or is there permanent damage that will cause him to not eat again.? This has to be the biggest lemon peel angel I have seen (around 5") and I really want to be able to keep this fish.? I ordered it on-line and never expected a fish that big.? Sorry for the rambling, but it's been a challenge and I am wondering if there is hope for full recovery from all the mistakes I made.? I feel just awful about the flame angel's demise due to my ignorance.? I just thought I had a resistant case of Amyloodinium with the scratching, rapid breathing, etc...? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
<Read>
Thanks,
Greg
<Have just skipped down. Please check your settings for your email... You're the only person who sends us queries with???
BobF>

Ongoing Flame Angel problems... iatrogenic   8/3/07
Hi WWM crew! You've been a most invaluable resource for me for several years now and I have tried to refrain from bothering you on this one, but I am at the end of my rope here. I know you're going to fuss at me but I'm ready to take it. I've searched your FAQ's for answers and have an idea but I don't want to do anything to make this situation worse. I have a 39 gallon
<Too small for this species>
FOWLR, one huge feather duster that came with LR purchased about 3 years ago, 2 turbo snails, 1 yellow tail blue damsel, 1 percula clown and a bicolor Dottyback.
<Likely a problematical mis-mix here>
I purchased a flame angel on June 23rd, and he/she/it came down with Popeye after 3 weeks. I assumed (I know, I know) it was an injury because it was only one eye but I panicked and got some blue medicine
<?>
from my fish store and treated it for an hour for 3 consecutive days in a (sorry) 2 gallon bucket of water from the main tank. The guy at the store checked my water and determined that it was fine. He didn't have the medicine to sell me but gave me some from their stash in the back of the store. So I'm not sure what it was but Anyway, it cleared up for about 2 weeks, and guess what it came back, popped and left again and now is back with a vengeance in both eyes.
<Something amiss with the environment... too small, the Dottyback...>
I fear this angel is a goner. It hasn't eaten anything for 2 days now. I have been feeding a combination of flake and frozen with VitaChem drops added, have been doing 4 gallon water changes every week. ( I went on vacation changed the water before I left but I'm sure my niece over fed them so I changed it again when I got home) I was wondering about getting furazdidone/Nitrofurazone comb. and get her in some type of quarantine and treat her. Marina (?) in one of her answers suggested a new plastic tub with a sponge filter and heater to use as an emergency. Yes, the next 60.00 I spend will be on a quarantine tank you can believe that. I guess you guys get sick of giving advice and people not taking it huh?
<At times...>
If this angel dies I'm giving up school nursing and moving to Fiji.
<Oh! See you t/here. Bula!>
Thank you in advance,
Sue
<Please read on WWM re: http://wetwebmedia.com/popeyefaqs.htm
and the linked files above. This fish should be moved to more suitable quarters... sans the Pseudochromid. Bob Fenner>

Re: Flame... Angel demise 8/4/07
Thanks Bob for responding. Unfortunately, my beautiful flame angel died and I feel terrible about it. I was wondering what size tank is suitable for them, and if keeping a Dottyback in the same tank is advisable.
<Posted and not if the system isn't large enough...>
I didn't think that Dottyback was the culprit but looking back it did get near and hang around the angel a lot. The clown is about the same size as the angel was and didn't take kindly the angel hanging in her corner. There are only 3 fish in my tank and I thought there was enough room.
<Ah, no>
I've learned a hard lesson. Crying hasn't helped. Do you think they need any school nurses in Fiji?
<Oh yes... and Hawai'i, and most everywhere else!>
Thanks for your help in all. You guys are wonderful.
Sue
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/Centropyge/loricula.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel Emergency?   7/17/07
Hi Crew,
Hate to bother, I am trying to read to find the answer to this but as I sit here reading my Flame Angel is appearing to get worse. He is 5 days old in quarantine with a skunk cleaner I bought just to put in there with him. The tank is a 10g with a sponge filter, heater, one power head a piece of live rock I put in there with some algae for him to graze. He seemed to enjoy picking at the rock work and sponge and stuff more than interest in food, Although he has eaten bits of food as well. Well I got home tonight and he was in the bottom of the tank and spun around really hard against the bottom of the tank. Seems to only want to swim backwards. There is no discoloration I can see, no spots... now has himself suspended upside down against the outflow of the powerhead. His fins do not appear ragged but raised. Salinity is 1.26 (to high?)
<Perhaps you mean 1.026... This would be fine>
ph 8.2 dKH was at 12 nitrates, ammonia and nitrites all 0. Water change was done tonight quickly after noticing his behavior. Was acting like the current of the water is what is moving him about so I turned off the powerhead, breathing does seem to be faster than normal. Any help ASAP would be so appreciated as I would hate to lose this fish. If I am doomed to loose him an insight into what would be causing this would also be greating appreciated.
Thank you so much
Sandra Caldwell
<I am concerned that the shrimp may be perhaps predating the Flame... I would move it out stat... and consider dipping, moving the Angel if its behavior did not improve in a day hence. Bob Fenner>

Re: Flame Angel Emergency? Mmmm, QT sys.  – 07/18/07
Thank you Bob for your response,
<Welcome>
The Angel didn't make it through the night. The shrimp never seemed to be aggressive towards the Angel , as he would go over to the shrimp and hang out often. I took him out and couldn't find a thing outwardly wrong with him. His color was good , no cloudy eyes nothing on his skin. I do wonder if he could have hurt himself. His behavior was like he was seeing another one and attacking it.
<Mmm, not uncommon that this IS the case... internal reflection in aquariums... not usually able to be seen from outside...>
One of those mystery fish deaths when you think you are doing everything right?
<Seems like it, yes>
Thank You so much for all the help you guys do
Sandra Caldwell
<Thank you for this follow-up. I do encourage folks to "darken" the outside of small tanks... with paper taped on... latex paint... Bob Fenner>

Flame Angelfish/Health 7/16/07
Dear Crew,
I have a reef aquarium that houses two fish, a Flame Angel and a Firefish. My question is about the angelfish which I've owned for about one month. Since it was acclimated to my tank it has progressively developed a dark smudge-like blemish on its head above its eyes. The charcoal colored blemish appears to be spreading. I'm afraid this may be a sign of malnutrition or stress.
<Bingo!>
The fish seems to eat well. It eats Mysis Shrimp twice daily
<Need a more varied diet and most importantly, soak the food with Selcon, or similar product rich in fatty acids, before feeding.>
and is constantly picking algae from the rock contained in the aquarium (though this algae is only a thin coating). I also provide seaweed via a clip every other day. The fish also does not appear to be stressed. It boldly swims throughout the entire tank and approaches me as I come to feed each day. Have you seen this condition before? Should I be concerned?
<A pic would help provide a better answer, but your main goal is to provide the excellent water quality and diet which this fish requires. Do read here and linked files above for more information on keeping this beautiful fish. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/loricula.htm>
I always appreciate your helpfulness and expertise! Thank you.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>

Question on Flame Angel health  12/5/06
Hello,
  First off, thank you so much for all of the valuable information on the  website.
<Welcome>
I have been reading/researching many items on the  website for many years, and this is the first time I have had to ask a  question that I couldn't find anywhere.   What I have  encountered is a white spot on the "nose" of a new flame angel.   The spot is very small and in between his eye and mouth.  It  almost appears to be on the "barbell" that protrudes from the  nostrils.
<Good description>
The fish has been in a 29 gallon quarantine tank for  five weeks, with a royal Gramma and neon goby.  No other fish show  signs of illness.  
<Mmm, am not so sure this is an illness either>
The quarantine tank has about 25 lbs of live  rock, aqua c remora skimmer,  and 2 powerheads.  I did ten  days of treatment with Kordon's Ich attack, when all the fish were  introduced to quarantine.
<Ahh! A clue>
Performed a 20% water change,  reintroduced carbon to tank, and observed the fish for three  weeks.  At about the fourth week is when I noticed the spot,  removed carbon, and begun
another treatment period with the Ich  attack.  I am now on the tenth day of treatment and haven't seen  the spot disappear.  
<Is not "ich" or other treat-able protozoan infestation, assuredly>
Unfortunately the flame moves so much I can't  get a good picture of the spot as it is fairly faint in color.   The flame is very active, attentive, very hungry (always eats, and  eagerly comes to the front of the tank when I enter the room),
<Good behavior>
the  flame also grazes the rocks often, and shows no other signs of  illness.  Other tank parameters, specific gravity is 1.024, Ph ~  8.1, Calcium 435, no detectable nitrates, nitrites, or ammonia. I am  anxious to get the fish in my display tank before the holidays, so I  can observe his transition into that tank (75 gallon), but thought I  would consult the experts first.  Thank you in advance for your  feedback, i truly value your opinion. (Whoever answers :) )
  Matt
<I fully suspect that this mark is not pathogenic... and would place this animal in my/your main/display system at this juncture. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel has a mouth (jaw) problem  - 11/13/06
My friend has had a Flame Angel in quarantine for 4 1/2 weeks now. We noticed at 4 weeks that he had some scales near his left eye that were either pale or maybe gone.
<Keen observation>
We of course decided to keep him in the QT until he got better. He is eating just fine and the tank gets regular water changes. He's being fed mysis shrimp, emerald entree, and dried algae. He eats everything just fine. However, we noticed last night when we fed him some algae that his jaw will extend out while he's pecking at it and it looks like it's become dislocated.
<Might have been damaged in capture, holding, shipping... this happens>
It will stick out for awhile and then he seems to be able to pop it back in to normal. I've never seen this before. When he jaw is sticking out it almost looks like their might be some tissue missing around his mouth. I can't tell if this is just because it's stretched out or if he's losing tissue around his mouth. Hopefully you guys have some ideas on what to do.  Thanks!
            Steve
<Best to maintain in an optimized setting, perhaps to supplement, soak foods in a vitamin et al. prep... and consider (I would) moving this fish to the main display ASAPractical. Bob Fenner>

Re: Flame Angel has a mouth (jaw) problem   11/14/06
    Thanks for the fast reply!  We have been soaking his frozen food in vitamins, so we've got that covered!
<Ah, good>
However, I do have a couple more questions for you.  Will the jaw heal over time and if so about how long should it take?
<May... perhaps weeks>
  If he's still having the problem in a month should something else be done, or is this a permanent problem he'll have?  
Thanks so much for the help!
    Steve
<Not much more that can be done presently. Bob Fenner>

Flame Angelfish Eye Damage, Follow-up 10/19/06
Hey, thanks for the quick reply.
<Heh... well I apologize this response was not as timely.>
Sorry I didn't specify- these "New" tanks are 20 gallon quarantine tanks, each set up with a well established Emperor 400 biofilter. 4L water changes are performed daily. I'll test the water at the lab tomorrow however, and find out if anything is amiss.
<Well... can also try some Epsom salts, about one tbsp per five gallons... can help reduce the swelling.>
Kevin J.
<Cheers, J -- >

Flame Angel...Feeding/Health   9/16/06
Hi there!!!
<Hi.>
I have a quick question that I need to ask...Been looking through WWM and can't find anything that will help me.  I just purchased a Flame Angel not too long ago and I have been feeding it only meaty food like Mysis, brine, and blood worms.  He loves this stuff so much to the point where he won't eat any greens I toss in.  Will this all meaty diet affect my flame angel's health?
<Should be fine.  He will get some algae supplement from picking at rock. Might want to try some Ocean Nutrition Algae Formula and add a vitamin
supplement such as Selcon to the diet.>  
Thank you for your help!!!
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>

- Flame Angel Problems 6/27/06 -
Hello WWM Crew,
I have a 75 gallon aquarium, all tests and temperature are normal.  However, I have a flame angel that is over a year old and is suddenly not eating, acting very skittish (hiding) and losing colour. It was the queen of the tank and a very active fish before now.  We haven't changed anything or added anything recently to explain the behaviour and apparent illness.  She doesn't have any spots or obvious signs of disease.  I didn't see anything in the existing database that matched our description, so I thought I would email.
Thank You!
Melissa W.
<Melissa, this is a curious situation made more curious because you didn't reveal anything about your tank husbandry. Specifically, how often do you change your water? Have you done any water tests lately? What were the results? Have you changed the water since you've observed this problem? Fill us in with some more specifics and we'll try to speculate with a little more detail. Cheers, J -- >

- Flame Angel Problems, Follow-up 6/28/06 -
Sorry about that, by all test and temps normal I meant the water tests for pH (8.4), nitrates (20 ppm), nitrites (0) and ammonia (0), temp 79 degrees. <Hmm... ok.> We just changed the water in the last two days and so far, no change, but we're still hopeful! <Me too.>
Her tank mates are 1 yellow tang, 1 blue devil damsel (much smaller then the flame and not an enemy), 1 sebae clown, 1 starry eyed hermit and 1 coral banded shrimp, in a 75 gal. tank.
Any other ideas? <Not many... is a bit of a mystery. I'd look for some aggression, perhaps from the tang. Otherwise, just keep offering favorite foods and keep the water quality up.>
Thank You,
Melissa
<I wish I had some better answers for you, but it's just not obvious what might be going on here. You may have to sit in front of the tank for a day or so to see what we're looking for. Best of luck. Cheers, J -- >

Flame Angel with Ich 6/17/06
Hi..
<Hi>
Is it possible for a flame angel to develop itch due to being released into a new environment? <Only if the Ich parasite is present.>  I have a flame angel who developed itch when I first
released him into the display tank, so I put him into a QT tank with daily freshwater baths, and when I placed him back into the display tank he developed itch again. <FW baths are only marginally effective with Ich.><<And the system is still infested... RMF>> What’s the best course of action? I'm hesitant to take him out again because that would stress the copperband and I refuse to buy a cleaner wrasse due to the information on your site and cleaner shrimps are very expensive here in Australia. Thanks for your help.
A
<Remove all fish to QT, treat with copper or other proven remedies.  Allow tank to run fallow (fishless) for 6 to 8 weeks.  More details can be found here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .>
<Chris>

Flame Angel, read the FAQs and didn't see anything that fits the issue in my tank.  3/30/06
Hello Guys and Gals.
<James... Di's family lived/s on Jewell Street there in Garfield>
My question is on my flame angel. I read the FAQs and also the sections on disease. Now, either I am not seeing the symptoms/situation I have or I am misidentifying/not seeing clearly enough my fish's abnormality. A short while ago (month or two) there was a little white or what looked more like whitish scales (I hope I am describing this well enough) 'of' the fish around the face area. The color on the rest of the body and fins is quite brilliant and the fish feeds aggressively enough. The cleaner shrimp will no longer clean the fish since the fish picks at its
whiskers. Maybe these are scales that need to be removed by the shrimp (by why wouldn't they be elsewhere?)?
<Don't know>
Of note, there are no noticeable salt crystal dots to denote ich; nor strange behavior. It likes mysis, flake food, prime reef, takes dried seaweed and the garlic pellets... basically anything food that comes its way. It is by no means thin or underfed; I place its BMI at a level of the best I have seen in any store or picture. Just the area around the face is puzzling.
<Perhaps "just" mucus... from an irritation, injury... a "bump in the night". Happens>
My regimen for the 75 mega-flow tank: 9-12% weekly water changes, pH 8.3 and yes I add marine buffer (the 8.3 crystal stuff, I don't have the container here or I would give the name) which I premix, 0 NO2, 10ppm NO3, kH of 250-300 and the temperature is a very constant 77-78F. I do add small amounts of Kalkwasser daily which is mixed into the fresh water top off in the morning; this has been a tremendous gain for the frogspawn and other inverts in the tank. I have approximately 80 pounds of live rock. Lighting is timed and I have power compacts running.  
As heat will soon be an issue I will slowly start to cut back light time... about 15 minutes every 3-4 weeks until I am down to a shorter
cycle that will allow for less heat build.
What should I be looking at or looking for to identify what these white/clear 'scales' are? Should I consider quarantine (providing I can
catch the wily gent!) for this fish?
<Mmm, containment.... that the area is improving>
The area of this is slowly increasing not decreasing. I do have another cleaner shrimp in a separate tank... this one might be more inclined to clean since it has not been picked at. What I believe I see just doesn't fit what I have read on the site thus far. Maybe it isn't anything to be concerned over but your input and opinion is deeply appreciated as my experience is only about a year in the hobby now so I don't always know, or trust, what I really am seeing at times.
Sincerely,
James Zimmer
<I would switch out, add the other cleaner and see if this helps. You are soaking foods in Selcon or eq.? Bob Fenner>

Re: Flame Angel, read the FAQs and didn't see anything that fits the issue in my tank    3/31/06
Thank you as always Bob.
<Welcome James>
No, sorry, I have not been soaking the food in Selcon or eq. as this has been an oversight on my part. I mean to do many things and get others (food and etc.) at the LFS... yes, a list would keep me on track! ; )
<Ah, good to know ones self>
This afternoon I will try again to persuade my other cleaner to come out and go to the other tank and maybe the peppermint shrimp too as I have some Aiptasia too close to the Frogspawn (in and about actually on the outcrops where the colony has yet to spread) to use my Ca(OH)2 slurry that close to zap them. Though, my little peppermint pal may not only want Aiptasia for this evenings main course... we shall see.
James
<Indeed. Bob Fenner>

Angel In Distress?   12/29/05
To the WWM Crew
<Scott F. with you tonight!>
Bob, thank you very much for your help about the Brooklynella/formalin but I think that my move was too late...
Now I have another problem with a beautiful and young Flame. He is in another QT , 30 Lt. He arrived 6 days ago, is eating, and his behavior is ok. Something is wrong because is color is becoming pale and there white powder on is fins (not transparent). Sometimes he scratch the pvc tubes on the tank bottom.
<Hmm...could be ich or some other parasitic illness.>
I put Coppersafe in the tank, and will wait till tomorrow.
So, please tell me if I must do something else.
Best regards
Flávio
<Well, Flávio, if you suspect parasitic illness, medication is not a bad idea. However, do exercise caution with copper and Centropyge angels, which are notoriously sensitive to it. Monitor copper levels constantly and adjust as necessary to maintain a proper therapeutic dosage. Be ready to remove the fish or dilute the copper levels if the fish shows signs of distress ("burning" fins, loss of appetite, etc.). Formalin is preferred with these fishes. If you are very attentive, and continue observing and monitoring the copper level, you can be successful with this! Follow the manufacturer's recommendations on dosage and duration of the treatment to the letter. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Formalin and Flame Angel  - 1/6/06
To the WWM Crew
<Jose>
As you suggest I change the medication for the Flame Angel. Just to remember, I began with Coppersafe because the fish was not eating, was hiding and scratching. He also as the fins very "cloudy" (not transparent) and losing his general and beautiful orange color, becoming very pale.
So, I put 5 formalin drops in the 25 litres QT and good aeration.
He is much better in the next morning, swimming and eating and with a little improvement about the paleness.
In order to free him of that formalin water I made two 50% water changes in different days and he seems to continue in good health condition. Two days ago, the same symptoms came back and today I put another 5 formalin drops in the QT.
Please tell me if my procedure is ok. If I put/add some Methylene Blue it would be prophylactic ?
<Yes. Worthwhile to add here>
In another QT's I have 2 ocellaris and an C. heraldi. They are doing very well. Do you think it would be a prophylactic attitude to add some Mt. Blue to the other tanks or just let them "in peace" ?
<I would add the Methylene Blue here as well>
Best regards, and thank you very much for your "old" and very informative site.
Grateful for your daily job
Flávio
<Thank you my friend. Bob Fenner>

Angel In Distress (Pt. 2)   1/7/06
Thank you Scott for your help about the Flame Angel.
<You're quite welcome.>
Today, after one night with copper, he is not better. The fins are moving faster and the gills, too.
<Well, it's hard to say if the rapid respiration is a result of the copper, or a part of the illness...I might be inclined to give the fish a break from all medication for a few days, to see if his condition improves. You can always resume a course of treatment with Formalin, if the symptoms dictate.>
Do you think it is better to change for formalin ? If you agree please tell me about the dosage and if you advise a dip or a continuous treatment in the
QT. Thanks once again for your kind help
Flávio
<Well, Flávio, I'm inclined to use Formalin on a continuous basis in the treatment tank. Rather than a general dosage, I'd recommend that you follow the directions of the manufacturer of the Formalin treatment that you are using. Better to be safe than sorry with any medication. Best of luck to you! Regards, Scott F.>

Marine Centropyges: Flame Angel Rescue 10/27/05
Hi, crew.
<Hi Roger.>
I urgently need help in how to best care for a small Flame Angel I just rescued from the tanks of a major pet supplier. 
<I understand how hard it is to see a fish suffer, heck even I might be suckered in, darn human emotions. To the point though, rescuing fish will only encourage folks to order and sell more fish in poor conditions.> 
This poor fish was crammed into one of their small display tanks with about 10 Purple Tangs, a Coral Beauty, several Fire fish, and dozen or more Ocellaris Clown fish ( two of which were on the bottom) . 
<Disgusting.> 
Their fish arrive on Wednesday and I frequently stop by to see what's new. Imagine my horror to see this beautiful fish being tormented by the Purple Tangs and unable to escape. The flame was clearly distressed and obviously had only a couple of hours to live. After summoning the manager and voicing my displeasure about the flame's accommodations. We both looked for a suitable tank for it to recover. It took only a moment to realize this fish was doomed with no place to go. I now have a stressed-out Flame Angel at home in a 10 gal. tank. 
<In a quarantine tank this small, I would do daily water changes.> 
I bought it with the understanding that if it died I would get a refund or a replacement. The fish seems disoriented, though it is swimming around. It was so stressed that I skipped the usual FW dip. I didn't believe it would survive. 
<I agree with your actions.> 
The lights are off and have offered no food. Will do so tomorrow. I used water from my display tank, and a small Aqua Clear power filter, heater and PVC pipe for shelter. Other than that, I don't know what else to do other than wait.
<You are on the right track. Monitor for signs of disease there may very be some from the conditions you describe at the store. Provide pristine water conditions and offer a varied diet perhaps with a nutritional supplement like Selcon.>
<<It's also time to start offering food, animal cannot repair/heal itself without nutrients.  Nori, romaine, something it can free-feed on, along with meaty foods offered twice daily (don't leave in tank, siphon off uneaten), and do perform those daily water changes.  MH>>
I appreciate any thoughts or advise.
Thanks,
Roger
<Welcome, Adam J.> 

Re: Centropyge Rescue - Roger's Doing Things Right, Though 10/28/05
Thanks, Adam J. for responding to my request so quickly.
<No trouble, you are welcome.>
The Flame survived the night, and the rest of today, but the outlook remains grim. I mentioned that the fish seems disoriented. 
<Probably still some trauma from his residence in such horrendous conditions at the Local Pet Store that you described.> 
I now believe that's because he is blind, or extremely impaired. 
<Possibly who knows what the conditions the tank you rescued him from were in. I’ll guess some high nutrient levels at the least. Not to mention the intense levels of aggression from the purple tangs he was with.> 
He is hovering in one place on the bottom and when he does move he bumps into the sides of the tank or his PVC shelter and just can't seem to find his way about. I was even able to reach in and hold him without any flight response. 
<Not a good sign.> 
<<Could be a sign of impending death - watch for stiffly held, erect fins, death comes very soon with that..  MH>>
Could this have been stress induced and will it pass? 
<Hard to say, even a stressed fish will run when in danger, a no- response shows weakness.> 
I tried a little Mysis shrimp without success but will also try a small piece of Nori anchored where he hovers (thanks MH for the suggestion). 
<Glad you saw that.> 
My usual quarantine tank (29) is in use curing 30# of live rock, so the 10 gal. was /is an emergency room. Water changes will be done daily. How much of the volume?
< Two to three gallons a day.>
Any suggestions, thoughts or voodoo cures are certainly appreciated.
<At this point the only thing you can do is keep water conditions pristine. Make sure the tank is efficiently aerated.>
Thanks to all for the amount of time you take to help us out.
<No worries, you are welcome.>
Roger
<Adam J.> 

Centropyge Update 11/2/05
Hi, Adam, MH and all the crew.
<Hi Roger, Adam here with you again.>
I wanted to give you an update on the Flame Angel I rescued from the pet store. 
<Okay.> 
After nearly a week the little rascal is still alive and swimming, at least more than when I got him. 
<That's good to hear.> 
He still doesn't eat when food is offered, but does pick around afterwards. 
<Still an improvement from your last e-mail.> 
Since he still seems full bodied, I assume he's eating something. 
<Yes the picking you mentioned, as per Marinas suggestion I would still offer some sort of macro-algae such as Grac. or the Nori she mentioned.> 
<<Mmm.. another suggestion; This is what we used at LBAOP with picky/finicky butterflies -  live bloodworms.  This may induce a good feeding response in the angel, but be skimpy with the offerings, you don't want rotting worms in there.  MH>>
So far there doesn't seem to be any sign of post trauma illness or infection other than a small puff of gray matter at the tip of one dorsal spine (an injury I suspect). 
<Sounds like it, hard to say without seeing.> 
I'll keep an eye on this, as I rather not medicate or remove him for a dip or a swab of the area (unless you recommend otherwise). 
<No as this fish was recently and still possibly under heavy stress I would not medicate unless you can identify an illness.>
His disorientation has improved dramatically and his obstacle avoidance system is finally working. 
<That's a good sign.> 
Daily water changes will continue until larger quarters are available or he passes on. Any other thoughts?
<Continue as you have and keep the water quality pristine.>
Thanks to all!
Roger
<Thanks for the update Roger, Adam J.> 

Centropyge loricula Rescue - Update 11/18/05
Hi, to Adam, Marina and crew.
<<Hello, Marina today.>>
Don't know if you recall, but about a month ago I rescued a Flame Angel that was being abused; nearly to death, by its tank mates. 
<<I most certainly do!>>
Happy to report that all is much better.
<<Fabulous!>>
He has made a remarkable recovery considering his near death experience. He's eating well and active, with no visible signs or behavior of disease. I'm upgrading my existing system to a 90 gal. this weekend and considered including him in the move, but probably not. 
<<He's living the phat life right now, isn't he? Good on you, my friend.>>
I did include a small LR and some Chaeto in his tank and he spends his time browsing and picking. You were so much help during this process, I thought you'd like to know.
<<All will be quite heartened to read of this - how about a stand up for conscientious aquarists!?! HEAR HEAR! <stands up and cheers> >>
Thank You! Though this may turn out to be a success story, there were times I wish I'd just walked away, as I'm sure I just got lucky.
<<The fish got lucky, you were patient and diligent, persistent.>>
Best wishes to all and thanks again,
Roger
<<Very glad to read of this, and may your little Flamer live the longest of lives, happy munching and all that. Marina>> 

Flame angel not looking good, please advise 10/10/05
Hello again WWM crew,
<Howdy>
I have another question, this one concerning a flame angel I just purchased. Situation is this, I just purchased a 2.5'' flame angel and 8 ~1'' blue green chromis. All were drip acclimated and put into a 20 gal long qt tank.
<Ooops... too many damsels/stress at once in a small space>
The qt tank is being kept at 83 degrees and has some plastic pipe fittings for cover. After introducing fish to quarantine I
noticed the flame had what appeared to be a sticker, like you or I would get from walking around in the woods. It was
black about a quarter inch long and had what appeared to be a spike stuck in his side.
<Good description... likely a crustacean parasite>
I looked through my copies of The Conscientious Marine Aquarist and Reef Invertebrates and found nothing similar. My first thought was then to do a freshwater dip. I did this the first day I had him and also on the second for about 10 min.s each, the "sticker" still remained. 
I performed a third dip on the next day and at the end was very surprised that the sticker still remained. At the end of the third dip I picked the flame up in a very fine mesh net and pulled the sticker off with a pair of tweezers,
<Good>
whole process lasted less than 30 seconds. I don't know if it was the right thing to do, but he seemed to be favoring that side and it clearly was bothering him. After removing the sticker and putting him back in the qt tank I noticed the small spike that was at the base was still in his side, it is about 1 mm in length.
He has been swimming near the bottom for about 36 hours now in a 12'' by 6'' area. He has eaten a few pieces of
bloodworms that I have put in for the chromis. His coloring is still very good, but I have noticed that where the
sticker is, his scales are slightly raised into what I would call a bump. I also noticed today that he had a few
small white spots on his shoulder. I am wondering if this is ich, or just a result of all the stress he has been put
through. 
<Likely the latter>
So far the chromis are doing great (schooling as I hoped) and all have eaten. I am wondering what you would
advise me to do about the flame though. My plan until I hear back from you is to continue my every other day 20%(4
gal) water changes from my main tank, and once a day feedings of bloodworms.
Thanks for all the past help, and future help I'm sure you will provide.
Cory
<I would dip and move the Flame if it appears to disimprove <<You made up that word, didn't you Bob?>>... and next time if there is... I'd daub the area of the "head" exit wound with an antiseptic after removing such external parasites. Bob Fenner>

Re: Flame not looking good, please advise 10/10/05
Thanks so much for the quick response. I have a follow up to my question about the flame angel. When you say if he
disimproves to dip and move, do you mean to dip him and move to my main tank (95 gallon, 100 lbs live rock, 5''
hippo tang, 2 cleaner shrimp) or to another qt tank?
<Ah, to the main tank.> <<Now you have other people using "disimprove"!>>
The only other tank I have is a 10 gallon which I think might be too small. As of right now he has another small patch of
white on his shoulder.
Thanks yet again,
Cory
<Mmm, if the fish stops eating, I would move it soon/er. Bob Fenner> 

What is this? Flaming out of the hobby 8/17/05
I am a new aquarist and about a week ago I added a Flame Angel to my 55 gal tank. To give you a brief description of my tank, I have about 40lbs of live rock, some snails, some red legged hermits, 3 sally Lightfoots, 1 cleaner shrimp, 1 pink spotted watchman goby, 1 juvi regal tang,
<Not a good choice period, and definitely not for such a small system>
1 ocellaris clown, 2 yellowtail damsels (I'm trying to get these guys out but catching them is a challenge- any suggestions?)
<Posted, on WWM>
and my new flame.
A couple of days ago I noticed My flame wasn't using one of his pectoral fins to swim. Upon closer observation I noticed that at there was a white spot at the base of the pectoral fin on his body and this spot was swollen.
<... you did/n't quarantine...?>
It seemed as if the fin was ripped out of the socket.  Last night I noticed that part of his caudal fin was frayed and there were tiny white spots on the caudal fin. Any ideas on what this might be and how I can treat it? I initially thought it was some sort of Dropsy that are common to dwarf Angels but the white spots on the caudal fin are throwing me off. The fish itself is eating well although swimming a little awkward.
<... much to relate to you... and not much time. Please start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/flameangdisfaqs.htm
then on to the root web of WWM proper, re Crypt... you are in danger of losing all your fish livestock. Bob Fenner>

?... Dead Flame Angel, toxicity of fish med.s... 8/20/05
Thanks for being honest, I really appreciate what you guys do here.  I started a QT last night with aged salt-water from my local pet shop - it had some live rock in it so beneficial bacteria was present. My water tests were all at acceptable levels. I moved all the fish from the display to the QT after giving each one a freshwater dip. Unfortunately, I found my Flame dead in the QT this morning. I guess he was just too far gone. Is that normal or should I be check for another cause of death?
<This and other Centropyge do often perish "mysteriously"...>
I'm treating with Rid Ich (it contains Formalin and Malachite Green). Is this a good choice?
<For? Both compounds are, can be deadly toxic, and are rather harsh on already-challenged fishes... they are discussed on WWM... please learn to/use the indices, search tool there>
I knew that the juvi Regal Tang would grow too large for my tank but I succumbed to the pleas of my daughter to get it. She wanted Nemo and Dory together in the tank. The LFS guy wasn't any help either- he said I could return it to the store for a credit once it started to grow too large. It's about 2 inches right now - do you recommend I take it back now?
<... please include previous correspondence... there are a few dozen of us here... can't recall, easily find such information...>
I am going to keep the fish quarantined for about 5 weeks. I don't have any fish in the display tank right now so hopefully all tomonts, tomites or theronts would have died by then - right?
<Yes, should>
Is there anything else that I might be forgetting to do?  
<To not send correspondence in code, to send prev. corr.... or pertinent information (size, type of system...). Cheers, Bob Fenner>

- Ich on Flame Angel -
Hello Crew,
I really appreciate you looking at this for me!
I brought home a 3" flame angel last week.  It looked great in the store, but as is often the case developed ich spots a couple of days after I brought it home.  I have looked through the Centropyge FAQs, but am a little confused. Should I dose with copper, should I fw dip?  Opinions seem to be mixed about this regarding this genus. <As long as the fish is in quarantine, I would dip first, Formalin later if things don't seem to be on the mend. These fish are sensitive to copper so a weaker-than-normal dose is what's in order, or Formalin will work against ich. Do not medicate the main tank.>
He is currently in a 20H bare bottom QT. <Excellent.> I have been treating with RidIch, which is a Formalin/malachite green mixture for the past 3 days. <Then after 14 days, should be ich-free.> I have been able to bring quite a few specimens back with this stuff. However, this fish seems to be getting more spots everyday. <Do check the water quality - likely need to be swapping out about half that tank every other day to keep the water quality in check. You'll need to add your medication after the water changes to keep the therapeutic level of the Formalin in an effective range.>
I am feeding him Mysis soaked in Selcon and a little garlic. <Ahh... good on the Selcon, I've about lost my faith in garlic to do anything but load up the skimmer.> He is eating pretty well.  I also have some Nori in the tank for him.  He nibbles on this from time to time.  What is the best coarse of action for this situation? <You are on the right path.>
Any advice is very much appreciated.
Thanks, Jeff
<Cheers, J -- >

Need help with my flame angel
Hi Rob/Marina..
<Hi there>
I finally have my first fish in my new tank, but alas something is wrong with my flame angel.  Tank was fully cycled for about 6 weeks.  this is a 90g tank with about 75# of live rock.  Water test are all normal, no ammonia.  Anyway, I have had the fish for about 2 weeks, doesn't really pay attention or eat the food I try to give it, the are some angel formula pellets.  But the flame does it the various algae, greens in the tank and what I believe are copepods (small with looking worms, I also see some very small specimens which look like tiny spiders, don't know what they are?  any the flame eats all of these things.
<Pycnogonids likely... and the Flame is probably consuming all sorts of organisms that are the live rock>>
I am noticing that one eye is cloudy, I also see on one side a little whitish patch (looks like a little explosion, i.e a fungus?
<Maybe>
It is very hard to see, I can only see it from certain angles.  I also now notice that at times the flame is scratching often, and sometimes swimming erratically, I also see her actually resting along the rocks.  I don't see white specks on her but I suspect she has some kind of parasite.
I have been searching your site, but simply don't know what she has??  Any advice and treatment suggestions would be very much appreciated.  I don't have a treatment tank, but could set one up if need.
thanks.
<I would just wait, observe this fish for now... unless it looks thin I would not be overly concerned with its feeding. Bob Fenner>

Flame continues to degrade...
Thanks Bob (apologize for the previous typo),
<No worries>
I am getting more nervous now, this weekend I also noticed that the second eye is also cloudy and that her back fins are getting rotted (and their are no other fish/verts in the tank).  Still has what looks to be an open sore, kind of a whitish fuzz on one side.
Are you sure their isn't anything I should be doing, I am actually surprised she is surviving cause she doesn't look very good.  Appreciate your thoughts.
<Well... if you had a "better" system... basically one that was about the same, but had been set up longer... I might move this fish to it... Likely what is occurring with this Flame is resultant from its handling, care before you... best you can do is provide a stable, optimized environment and "hold on" at this point. There are no "wonder treatments" or additives you can put in the water that will help. Bob Fenner>

Sick Flame Angel (4/12/04) 
Hi. Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer my question. <You're welcome. Steve Allen tonight.> 
I have a 90 gallon FO with some live rock (1 Chromis and 1 flame angel). I have had the flame angel for over a week now and has been eating well (Mysis shrimp, formula 2 flakes, plankton, and just got some pygmy angel food because my tank has brown diatoms but no green algae for the flame to graze on). <Oops! No quarantine?> 
Recently I noticed that the flame's color has paled quite a bit since I got him (especially his lips which are whitish), his fins look frayed and is swimming slightly erratically at times (up and down the side of the tank). His gill area is slightly gray in color as well, but no white spots or other signs of ich. I know he's sick, but what is it? Ich? <Doubtful--the little white spots are classic.> He's still eating well <a good sign> and I'm unsure how to treat him. I know flames are copper sensitive. I thought it might be a water quality issue but all parameters are fine (ammonia 0, nitrate 0, nitrates 20). I just did a 5% water change in case. <Always smart. Sometimes bigger changes (30-50% or even higher) are best if a true toxic crisis is suspected.> 
If I treat him, do I need to put him in QT along with the damsel (who looks fine; my QT is a 10 gallon set up a week ago) or can I dose Formalin into the main tank (will that kill the live rock?). <Will kill many desirable things. Never treat the main tank.> I guess I can't bear the thought of stressing him out by moving him into QT. <It's not really stressful. You can keep it darker in there and have some PVC fittings to hide in.> Do I need to then leave the tank fallow for 4 weeks if it's ich? I'm really unsure of where to go from here. Thanks kindly, Angela 
<well, this is a tough situation that could have been avoided by proper 4-week quarantine prior to introduction into the main tank. Again, I doubt ich. Amyloodinium would be another consideration. Do look at some pix. However, this disease usually causes rapid breathing and is quickly fatal. I'm more worried about a bacterial infection. You really need to move this fish out of your display. I'd consider treating with an antibiotic. Keep the water in great shape & feed adequately, but not too much. It's OK to leave the Damsel behind for now if no signs of illness. If you suspect parasites, both fish need to be treated in QT and the display tank left fishless for 6-8 weeks. Unfortunately, a lot of Flame Angels have been doing poorly in recent years, especially for certain areas where cyanide is used, so it is not uncommon for them dwindle & die over the first few weeks. You can read more about this on WWM. Hope this helps.>

Sick Flame Angel 2 (4/13/04) 
Steve, thanks for your advice. <My pleasure> After reading more of the FAQs and articles, I suspect a bacterial infection as well, and not marine velvet. <OK> The main tank water has been slightly cloudy (which I attributed to the brown diatom algae growth) but now I suspect it is bacteria (?). <Could be> There seems to be a fine dust on the water's surface which the skimmer hasn't filtered. <A common occurrence in SW tanks. Try skimming it off by running a paper towel over the surface--it should stick to the paper.> I will move the flame to my QT, but which antibiotic medication should I use and where do I get it (Checked out marinedepot.com and they don't carry it, neither does my LFS). Please advise. My flame (his name is hot lips;) is still eating 
but looks paler today;( -a <Sorry to hear. You might want to try Melafix, which is a natural tea tree product with antibacterial properties. Treating with actual medications is a bit of a problem because you don't know for sure whether is a gram-positive or a gram-negative bacterium. A broad-spectrum antibiotics such as Kanamycin or Nitrofurazone (available on the internet--search with Google--may be your best bet. Another option would be to start with Maracyn (gram-positive) and add Maracyn 2 (gram-negative) if a rapid improvement is not noted. These two products should be available at your local PetSmart or Petco. If not, try www.drsfostersmith.com  and search under fish for "antibiotics." Hope this helps. Good luck, Steve Allen.>

Sick flame Anger 3 (4/14/04) 
Hi Steve. Thanks for the reply again-your help is invaluable. <You're most welcome.> 
I went to another LFS and Kanacyn was recommended to help with the frayed fins, pale coloring/lips and grayish gills. <Glad to hear that you found some. I gave the flame a freshwater dip but had to cut it short-at 30 seconds he twitched and keeled over. <Would not try again. This treatment is only of value for parasitic infestation.> I don't know if that did him more harm than good. I put him into the QT (10 g.) right away last night and administered the dosage of Kanacyn. The only remaining fish, a b/g Chromis is still in the main tank for now and still disease free.  My dilemma now: The QT has never cycled completely and so I had to siphon 10 g from the main tank to replace toxic water. Also, I was told the medication might destroy beneficial bacteria, which would hinder cycling anyway.<True> This morning it was (borderline) ammonia free and did a 20% change from the main 
tank. I plan to do a 50% change tonight, but I'm really worried that the fish will suffer from the ammonia more than anything. <Yes, there is little possibility of establishing biofiltration in a medicated tanks. Water changes are key. I would measure ammonia daily and do 50% water change daily.> He looked good this morning (better color, and was still eating but hiding in pvc pipe). <Glad to hear this.> When I conduct daily 50% water changes, should I take this water from the main tank, and then replenish the main tank with synthetic saltwater, or should I use freshly made saltwater for the QT water changes? <I would use freshly mixed to avoid any possible contamination of the hospital tanks.> Due to lack of space, I only have 2 5-gallon buckets, so the saltwater will have aged for 1-2 days only (I usually age the water at least a week, but can't with such a high volume of water changes). <2 days with aeration should be plenty.> Also, do I need to re-dose meds accordingly with these frequent water changes? <I would simply give the recommended dose shortly after the water change. This should preserve its activity against bacteria.> The treatment recommends 5 day of antibiotics, but I'm assuming I should keep the fish in QT at least 2 weeks. (I recommend 4 weeks after completion of therapy to be sure that the fish is truly healed and to watch for other infected fish in the display tank that might need treatment too. Thanks for the help, -a very worried and stressed out (maybe more than the fish!) Angela <You are doing very well and have every reason to hope that this fish will recover. Good luck. Do keep us posted. Steve Allen>

Sick Flame Angel 4 (4/16/04) 
Hi Steve (thanks again for all the help) <Well, I hope it's really helping.> 
It's about the flame again! To follow up, he looked better when I first started the Kanacyn treatment, but now he seems to have developed a whitish clump on his fins, and I did see him rub up against the pvc a couple of times and twitch a bit. <Possibly a sign of parasites.> He has some raised dots on his gills (one kind of looks like a white pimple). <About how big are these?> Did he develop ich now? <Possible.> I don't want to put him through a freshwater dip again (see below). <Understood.> It's day 4 of the treatment, and I have one day left. Should I continue? Or start treating him with something else after changing the water? I am still constantly battling ammonia levels by doing 50-75% water changes daily; he's still eating well, has clear eyes, and has good color. Really confused <It can be very confusing at times.> 
<Check some pictures of lymphocystis to see if you think the whitish clump could be this. The white spots are suspicious for ich. I hesitate to recommend a stressful treatment like copper or Formalin. Another option would by hyposalinity by gradually dropping SG down to 1.010 and keeping it there for a while. With the Kanamycin gone, you can build up your biofilter, possibly with Bio-Spira Marine. Read about these issues in the ich articles & FAQs on WWM. The fact that your fish has better color, is active and eating is very encouraging. Keep working with it. Steve Allen>

Environmental Problem, Or Disease?
Hi!
<Hi there! Scott F. here today>
We have a sick Flame Angel and were hoping for some help. We've been looking through the Q&A and can find some similarities, but nothing that seems to fit all of them and was hoping you could help us.
<I'll do my best!>
We've had the tank up and running for over a year and we've had "Flamey" for about 6 months.  About a week ago, he stopped eating. Someone said to try feeding him something else, so we tried brine shrimp and he wasn't even the least bit interested.  He pretty much stays in one part of the 30 gallon tank. The very tips of his fins look a just a little straggly and  he's gotten very pale the past 2 days. Today I noticed that he's starting to twitch and swim a little erratically. I can't find anything on him (spots, fuzzy stuff.. etc).
We've done 2 water changes in the past 5 days. When I checked the water today the nitrates were at about 20. The ammonium tests showed .5 on one and 1.0 on the other (I ran 2 different tests - one with a strip and one with adding drops) so I added some ammolock2 to the water.
<Well, detectable ammonia levels are definitely problematic, and almost certainly contributed to the fish's difficulties>
Any insight that you can give to help out our little guy would be great (we and his yellow tang buddy will be really upset if we lose him!)
Thanks so much!
Joanne and John
<Well, guys- I think that a large part of the problem is the detectable ammonia level in the system. Erratic behaviour and damaged fins are often a sign of metabolite poisoning. I'd execute some water changes with quality source water. However, more importantly, I'd look for the source of the ammonia. and correct it immediately. In the absence of other symptoms, I'll bet that some husbandry adjustments (i.e; stepped-up water changes, use of chemical filtration media, aggressive protein skimming, etc.) can make all the difference here. Do continue to observe the fish carefully, and run regular water tests to monitor your progress. I think that you'll see a difference after a week or so. However, make sure that you stay vigilant for possible disease symptoms, just in case. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Flame Out? (Flame Angel In Trouble?)
Hi,
<Hi there! Scott F. here tonight>
I've been treating all of my fish (1 Valentini Puffer, 1 Neon Goby, 3 Firefish,1 Flame Angel) with hyposalinity for ich for 3 weeks now. It's been almost 2 weeks since all the ich spots are gone. I'm slowly raising sg back to normal. (it's at 1.015 now, amm 0, nitrite, 0, temp 78.6, ph 8.0)
Last week, my Flame Angel, however, wasn't interested in eating and was breathing rapidly. She soon improved (after a day) so I kept her in the QT with the other fish. She had what looked like a white pimple near the gills, but no ich spots. Again this week, I've noticed a decline in appetite and movement the past
couple of days. She wasn't interested in food this morning and was breathing rapidly again. Is this ich (maybe in the gills so I can't see spots)? None of the other fish show symptoms.
<Quite possible; or it could be some other parasitic illness...>
I plan on moving the flame to another QT, where I will treat with formalin. Is this ok or should I wait to see if she improves again? I really don't know what's wrong with her, so I'm hesitant about treating her with meds. Thanks. A
<Agreed. Continuous exposure to medication is never a good thing. On the other hand, the breathing difficulties are cause for concern.  My thinking is to observe the fish in quarantine for a few days. If the fish appears to be declining, or if other symptoms of ich or other parasitic disease manifest, then I would go for the formalin treatment. Hang in there...Be prepared to take action if necessary. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Flame Out! (Pt. 2)
Thanks for the advice. Sadly, the flame angel died later that night.
<Sorry to hear that. You did your best...>
I really wish I knew what was wrong with her. So far all other fish look good, and have a week left in quarantine. Should I wait several more weeks before putting them back in the display?
Thanks again-a
<Yes, I would definitely wait out a few more weeks to make sure that whatever it was that you were dealing with is gone for good. Remain vigilant! Here's to better days! Regards, Scott F.>

Flame angel ill
I have had my flame angel for almost 6 months.  I came home today and noticed what seems to be white mucous on its gills, fins and tail. <He could have a slime coating from something irritation him> He is also swimming about quite fast so I'm having a real hard time getting a good look at him.  I don't know what it could be (I've read ick looks like salt, this doesn't look like salt, I don't know what ick looks like I've never had a fish that's had it or anything else for that matter). <First thing I would do is a water change. That's the first thing I always do when I have a fish that appears to be having problems.>  I have no idea what it is or what I should do. Any advice on helping Tigger would be great! Thanks. <The other possibility could be Lymphocystis. But it looks more like cauliflower growing on it. I really believe something in the tank has irritated him and he has a big slime coat. You need to figure out what did this AFTER you get him back under control. A water change is the first step to getting the water conditions correct.  Good luck Kelly from MacL>
Kelly

Can't Keep Flame Angels Alive (8/31/04)
  I have had a fairly successful 125 gallon marine aquarium for 3 years. Though I started with a "fish only"  I've gradually developed my aquarium into one that sustains both fish and some of the tougher inverts and soft corals. I think of the Flame Angel as pretty much a perfect angelfish. <No disagreement from me, though there are many other fine ones, including the Coral Beauty. As a whole the Centropyge genus has a number of advantages over the larger angels.>
It's small, very colorful, and not aggressive. <Well, others may beg to differ on that, but on the whole they are less aggressive than some of the others.> I've tried several times in the last 2 years to keep one in my "reef".  Each time, the angel starts out fine, but gradually "balloons up" until it dies.  When purchased it
appeared as a well-fed fish; but this proceeds to raised scales on the sides and a stomach area that swells larger with each day.  In each case, no other fish in the tank has ever shown this. <Suspicious for internal parasites and/or bacterial infection.> There's no evidence of ich, or any external symptoms other than the swelling.  Since Flames are deeper water fish, I wonder about air bladder woes. <Well they are found as shallow as 30 feet. They do not appear to be unduly subject to such problems, which BTW, would seriously impair their swimming in your tank, not just cause bloating.> I do buy the fish from the same LFS, and I have read about this fish's unexplained loss of hardiness in recent
years. <Indeed, and this may be the problem. However, many of us have thriving Flames. I wish I could explain why mine has been thriving for a year and yours all die. Perhaps there is some aspect of your tank that only affects the Angels, though it may be very difficult to pinpoint. You might want to network with other aquarists, on our forum for instance, to see what seems to be working for those who are having success. You may find something that way. Do you quarantine? An extended period might help. You might be better off seeking Hawaiian specimens, or even the newer, albeit expensive, tank-bred Flames, which are likely to be hardier and parasite-free. Food for thought, anyway. Steve Allen.>

Popeye On A Flame Angel?
<Hi, Scott F. here with you.>
I have a Flame Angel that has been in QT and doing GREAT! I added him to the main tank last night and all the lights where off. The QT tank has one piece of live rock in it so not really any caves. The main tank has a ton of LR in it so it has a lot of caves. He went in the main tank ok without issues and found a little cave to play in of his own. This morning we couldn't find him and started getting worried. Well, we finally found him and he had a bubble over one eye.
Everything that I read on your site says that one eye usually equals being hurt. I just wanted to check and make sure that this is what you think the case is because he was swimming kind of funny too. Do you think that he probably hit his eye in the NEW caves and might be swimming funny (comes out of the rock, swims on his side, then straightens back up and goes back into the rock) because of the eye and new surroundings?
<This is a definite possibility. Unilateral (one eye) Popeye is almost always caused by an injury. It is also entirely possible that the fish is a bit disoriented after this trauma. It's hard to be 100% certain without seeing the fish, but I'd bet that this is what's happening here. The good news is that this type of injury can be easily treated with Epsom salt in the QT tank to help draw down the swelling>
The purple tang that was in QT with him and was added last night as well is doing GREAT.
<Good to hear>
I did notice that my cleaner shrimp really cleaned the Flame Angel for a while verses what they cleaned the Purple and the two Chromis. Almost had the Flame Angel pinned trying to clean him. Could this indicate some sort of bacterial infection?
<Well, it's really hard to say. In all likelihood, the shrimp simply found very willing "customers" in these fish, and merely did a very thorough job.>
Thanks for all the help AGAIN!
JB
<My pleasure, JB! Regards, Scott F.>

Flame Angel Flashing 7/29/04
Hey guys, <Hi Nathan, MacL here with you tonight>
I have a Flame Angel that is flashing on some PVC pipe. I have never seen him flash or rub himself on anything else such as the rocks, fake corals or
gravel.  He has no spots and no apparent problems. <Sounds like something is bothering his gills though. Is your tank a reef tank or a fish only tank? If reef you might want to invest in a neon goby or a cleaner shrimp.> He is eating well. Could he be rubbing on the PVC pipe because it is soft and a little slimy and feels good or do you think he has a disease? <I think something is irritating him for him to be rubbing.> What do you think?  Water conditions are immaculate. No Ammonia or Nitrites and Nitrates are below 5.<I got to say I'd prefer nitrates at 0.> Temp., salinity and PH good. I feed 80% my home brew frozen food from Bob's book of Spirulina, Green Algae, Zoë and a mix of Shrimp, Mussels, Squid and Scallops and 20% Algae, Formula 1 and 2 and Spirulina Flakes soaked in Zoë. Is Spirulina good for Tangs and Angels? <Yes but angels do need some sponge in their diet as well. There are some good angel mixes.> Not as a primary food especially for Angels, but as a supplement especially when soaked in vitamins? I thought the
ingredients of what is the name of that flake food that is made in Alaska, big company I am sure you know the name, herbivore looks good. What do you think? The first ingredient is Kelp and the second is Spirulina and then Salmon, and other fish. Is Kelp good for Tangs? <Yes, but so is the Nori you get in a Chinese store same thing much better price.> Is this a good supplemental food to go along with my home brew? <Yes but I would invest in some frozen foods with some sponge in them.>
 

Flame with cloudy eyes
Hi- <Hi Wes, MacL here with you today>
I am glad you guys are here to help!  I looked on the site, and did not find a direct answer to my problem.  I have a yellow tang, flame angel and clown fish in my 75g tank.  Everyone was happy for a couple months, then ich started to appear. I began treatment with Rid Ich, vacuuming the gravel daily. Fish still ate and functioned normally during this time.  At the beginning of the treatment, I gave all three a fresh water dip (each in their own prepared water) which gave some relief. <Good to hear> When catching the flame angel for this dip, I was using a net to guide her into a container. She darted into the net, and was stuck in it for about 20 seconds, head first. I was able to loose her from the net without any force on my part.  After this, her eyes seemed cloudy - I don't know if this is a result of the net scratching them or something else. <It could be the net or could be the effect of the parasites or even possibly the left over bacterial infection.> I thought this would go away, as it did not seem to affect her in any way.  Over the last few days, sometimes it seems it is improving, sometimes getting worse.  Her behavior has remained normal, as though nothing is wrong.  When I fed this morning, it was as though she could not see the food clearly, and thus missed it. <She probably can't see clearly. I really would suggest some type of hospital tank and a course of antibiotics treatment. If she starts to show signs of Popeye you can use Epsom salts to give her some relief in that way as well.> Upon feeding tonight, she was able to eat some, but still seemed as though her vision is hazy. The ich has improved a lot, the tang has no signs, the angel a very small amount left, as well as the clown.  I have been treating for 6 days.  Also, over the last 6 days I have slowly lowered the salinity to 1.017.  All other conditions are just right.  Please let me know what I should do to correct this problem!  Also, I have noticed that sometimes it looks as though my tang is showing signs of aggression to its reflection in the glass - is this something to worry about? <You don't mention the tank size? Does he have lots of swimming room?>  Thanks in advance for your help.  Wes.       

Flame Angels and Ick (12/11/04)
Dear Crew <Hi. Steve Allen tonight.>
How easily do flame angels get ick? <Probably not as easily as Tangs, but they certainly are at least as vulnerable as your average fish.> I have had three of them so far from three different places Fiji, Hawaii, and Marshall Islands and each one has had it. They all appear healthy when I purchase them with no signs of ich, no scratching or signs of irritation, eating well, and behaving normally. Then, in a few days spots start to appear. However it just seems like a few spots that developed on the gill fins and tail fins and not the entire body. <That means the ick is in your tank, not on the fishes, though it is possible they became infested at the fish store.>  The ones from Fiji and Hawaii have both died on me after a month and the one from Marshall Islands I purchased a couple of days ago and has started to show signs on the gill
and tail fins. I read through your site and see you recommend treating angels with formalin. <This is one way of doing so. Did you read about quarantine? This is the key step. Keep any new acquisitions in QT for 4 weeks. If they get ick in there, they probably brought it with them. If they pass QT and then get ick in your main display, then you have ick in there. The most effective way to rid a tank of ick is 6-8 weeks of no fish (aka "fallow")> I have been using Green-ex. How does this work? <Green-ex? Most would say it doesn't work.> Is it safe to use formalin in the display tank containing cleaner shrimp, hermits, snails, live rock, and one piece of coral? <No> I regrettably don't have a quarantine tank. <This is the root of your problem, and you will not solve this problem without one. A simple QT consisting of a 10G tank or a Rubbermaid container, air-driven sponge filter, heater, and some PVC pieces can be set up for under $50, which often is the price of one Flame Angel.> I have also been feeding fish with flakes containing garlic. Does this help? <Perhaps. It does stimulate appetite and may strengthen immunity. I will admit that I successfully treated a 300 gallon reef system with garlic, Bio-Coat, diatom filtration, $120 worth of No-Ich (allegedly reef-safe), and a $200 UV sterilizer with no evident injury to any invertebrates. I have seen none for 3 months now. I don't know which of these really was key. I was desperate and absolutely unable to catch and quarantine all of those fish. The only other option for me at the Tim was to tear down and quit. This all started when I was forced to pull a Tang out of QT a bit prematurely (after only 2 weeks). I think the reason the ick disappeared eventually was that the Tang finally died and the other fish were able to fight it off in conjunction with the treatments. The Tang could not. I still recommend quarantine/fallow as the best treatment. If there are just a few spots, you could consider something else, but putting the Flame in QT to do so is smartest. Check out the articles on ick at www.reefkeeping.com and www.advancedaquarist.com.> Please write back fast! Laurel <Hope this helps, Steve Allen>

Problem with Flame Angel
Dear WWM Crew,
I am quite new with saltwater tank hobby, I used to have a freshwater tank and a Koi pond for many years. I have changed my 125 gal freshwater tank into saltwater FOWLR tank about 9 months ago since I was very attracted with
the beauty of marine aquarium. So far my FOWLR tank (equipped with sump and refugium with Caulerpa taxifolia and mangrove) seems running well. So far all the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate was not detected and there are no problem with all of my existing fish (1 yellow tang, 1 purple tang, 1 Kole tang, 1 Sailfin tang, 1 yellow face angel, 1 Koran angel, 1 mandarin goby, and 1 blue devil).
A month ago I bought a flame angel, however this fish finally did not stay longer in my tank and it was died 1 week after introduced to my tank without any specific symptom appeared. 5 days ago I got a new flame angel. I used not to quarantine all of my fish before they were introduced to my tank, however since I have got a god advise mainly from WWM...
<No gods here>
...that it was necessary to quarantine the fish therefore I do now the quarantine for this new flame angel before it was introduced to my main tank. I am using 15 gal tank equipped with skimmer and sponge (old sponge from my sump) filter for this quarantine tank and I have done a 10% water change every day. At the beginning this fish looks terrific and active, however since 2 days ago it looks less active and sometimes it shaking the body. Last night I do a fresh water dip of this fish and during the water dip there are something looks like a crystal salt falling down from its gills. What kind of disease with this symptom?
<Maybe a trematode>
How do I have to do to cure this disease? The colour of this fish still remain bright and no any white spot appearing on its body. Please help me on this matter, since I do not want to lose this beautiful fish for the second time.  Thanks in advance for your help on this matter. 
Best regards,
Petrus 
<I would introduce a cleaner organism to your quarantine tank... likely a Gobiosoma goby... and move this on into your main tank when it's time. I would NOT add chemical medicines to the water at this juncture. Bob Fenner>