Vodka Dosing – 08/19/08... not really a filter, but the best fit area
Hi –
<<Hello>>
I've searched your site and a few others and read some interesting articles about the concept of vodka or ethanol dosing to reduce/eliminate Nitrate and Phosphate in reef tanks.
<<Indeed>>
Most of it was fairly dated however and I was curious as to whether the idea still has currency.
<<Possibly, with caveats… Firstly, this methodology is not without danger...the right combination of circumstances can be catastrophic (I speak from experience). Secondly, this method only treats the symptom and is not a cure-all for what ails your system re buildup of nitrogenous/organic compounds. Are you aware of how this method works? The premise is the addition of a concentrated form of carbon (Vodka/ethanol) provides a food source that promotes the artificially high production of certain strains of bacteria for a limited period (until the carbon/food source is depleted). Some of these strains of bacteria have the ability to “double their populations every 20-minutes.” As this mostly aerobic bacteria population grows, along with the carbon source, excess nutrients are also oxidized. As implied by the name, this process is driven by oxygen consumed by the bacteria to drive their metabolisms…and therein lays the greatest danger in my opinion. Coupled with the wrong conditions (already low oxygen levels from overstocking, inadequate water movement, etc.) or unfortunate circumstance (loss of power/sump pump circulation) the artificially high bacteria population can rapidly consume all the available oxygen creating a severe anoxic condition>>
I'm home in the middle of a vacation for a day or two and just tested my nitrates which are disturbingly high as I had to shut down my skimmer while I've been gone.
<<Hmm…don’t know what “disturbingly high” is>>
I was thinking that it might be a way to bring them down quickly and give me time to deal with it when I return home in a week or so.
<<As stated, this method only treats the symptom…and then only briefly. One or two “doses” before leaving the tank for a week or so will have little overall impact. I think your system would be much better served here by a canister filter filled with cut-up Poly-Filter>>
So my questions are: 1) does it work?
<<It can, yes… I have found it especially good for removal of Cyanobacteria…after determining and attending to the initial cause/source of the outbreak>>
2) Should I do it in this circumstance?
<<I would not…for reasons already mentioned>>
3) Can you suggest a dosage;
<<Would rather not as I wish to discourage your use of this methodology>>
and 4) are there any risks since I won't be around to monitor anything but the short term effects?
<<I strongly urge you to find/use a different method to bring down your Nitrates in this situation. And the obvious…keeping the skimmer running and having someone check on/feed your system and empty the skimmer while you are gone. A week is too long to leave your reef system unattended, in my opinion>>
Thank you for taking the time to share your most valuable experience and expertise.
Eric
<<A pleasure to assist. Eric Russell>>
Ps disturbingly high is around 60-70 ppm
<<Ah…yes indeed. I would confirm the validity of this test (new/different test kit) and if accurate, determine the reason/fix what is causing such a high reading…skimmer on or not. Regards, EricR>>

Renew or Carbon? NO3 control... NOT through chemical filtrants   3/15/08
Hi I have a question, I have a stingray only tank, my ammonia and nitrate is almost always 0 but my nitrate is in between 10-20
<Typically hard to rid the accumulation of this metabolite in the presence of large, metabolically active fishes>
the rays are fine.
Healthy. But I started reading about Seachem Renew. Should I try using this instead of carbon? Will it help with nitrates?
Michelle
<Not likely, no... Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm
the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Sulphur bead nitrate reactor producing instead of reducing nitrate – 11/24/2007
Hi folks,
<Hello Rob.>
I contacted Marc Langouet about this. He kindly informed me that that most hobby test kits convert nitrate to nitrite. This would explain why I was seeing the unexpected spike in nitrite.
<You also measured nitrites. Since nitrites test kits almost exclusively measure nitrites, you can see how reliable your nitrate measurement was. 110 ppm in the outflow and 25 ppm in the tank would be quite toxic, if you assume you actually measured nitrite instead of nitrate or even a combination of both.>
After the unit matured, everything went very well (nitrate was unmeasurable)
<Good to hear.>
until the powerhead supplying the unit dropped the flow rate. This resulted hydrogen sulphide production and I narrowly avoided losing a lot of stock. I only notice when I saw my SPS dying rapidly from the bottom up.
<That’s exactly why the RedOx potential of these reactors is often measured. If the potential drops below –200 mV the flow needs to be increased or the reactor has to be turned off until it is fixed.>
I'll start it up again after I move.
All the best, Rob
<Best wishes for your future endeavours. Cheers and thanks for the update, Marco.>

Nitrate Troubles 2/27/07
Hi Bob,
<James for Bob today>
I am considering using the DIY Nitrate reactor outlined on Carib-Sea's website, in conjunction with their Sulfur/Aragonite media. I have a 125 gallon lightly stocked reef tank in which I cant seem to get my nitrates to drop below 25ppm, despite great skimming and frequent water changes. I have had issues with high pH and dkH in the past, resulting in the burning of a few corals. This problem was a result of adding Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium to raise my calcium levels, but resulted in a large pH and Alkalinity spike. I stopped using this, and just left the tank alone (Water Changes only) to wait for these levels to come down on their own. My question is this: Are there any significant dangers I am exposing my tank to in using this sulfur nitrate reduction process?
<Do not believe so, but using such products just puts a band aid on the problem.
Is best to go after the root cause.>
The PDF on the Carib-Sea website gives good direction on construction of the reactor, but nothing with regard to use (flow rate, amount of media, etc.). They recommend that the outflow from the reactor be directed over a sump, in order to degas the effluent. Would putting the outflow hose into the skimmer chamber or the filter sock of my Berlin sump be enough? What about flow rate? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
<Generally, these products require a slow flow rate to be effective.  I would contact Carib-Sea and ask their advice on their DIY reactor.>
By the way, I am a sales associate at a LFS in Brandon, FL and I send my customers who are new to the hobby home with your book all the time, and have gotten nothing but success stories and educated customers as a result.
Thanks for making my job a whole lot easier!!!!
<Bob thanks you for this.  Do read here and related links for help on the nitrate problem and thank you for writing us.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm
James (Salty Dog)>
Thomas R.

Nitrate Soup
Hello WWM!
You might have the best website out there for this hobby!  To start here are my marine tank specs:
- 55 gal setup
- Amiracle wet/dry filter
- 25 lbs of LR (working to get more!)
- SeaClone 100 Skimmer (will be upgrading to a Aqua C Remora after reading your site)
- 1 power heads for circulation.
- Turbo Twist UV Sterilizer
The tank inhabitants are a porcupine puffer, clown trigger, peacock puffer, choc. chip star fish, and a gold damsel.
All of the water tests are fine (0.00) except the nitrates.  The reading is always between 20 - 40 ppm.  I do a 10 gal water change every 3 weeks, and also put a carbon filter in the sump 2 wks on/2 wks off.
As a last effort I bought some of the Nitrate Sponge and put that in the sump as well, and the nitrates haven't decreased.  I should have read on wwm.com about the stuff before I bought it.
I will be adding another powerhead to the set up to increase the water flow in the tank, buying more LR, and upgrading my skimmer.  I will also be changing water every week instead of every three as well (5% a week).
Is there anything that you would also recommend to get my water quality down to all 0.00?
<The skimmer will help a great deal...But there is really nothing wrong with that nitrate reading.  In fact, it's quite satisfactory for the animals you're keeping.  The regular water changes are really the key to maintaining a healthy nitrate reading.  Now, for the scolding.  No trigger belongs in a 55, it's just too much fish for too small an area.  The puffers also will need the largest of aquaria in their adult years...Think of the long term health of these animals, as well.  Good luck! Ryan>
Shane

- Use of Chemicals -
Hi Crew,
Thanks for your help in the past and now for a question regarding the use of a type of product. Dr. Foster carries it and it is called HyperSorb and the pitch is: A synthetic absorbent that removes organics, stabilizes the ionic balance, helps control ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. There are other similar products. Would a product like this cause a reduction in the bacteria population of a fully cycled system by reducing the available ammonia? <It might - would be a competitor for the resource.> I am looking for a way to reduce nitrates but I do not want to lose the natural cycle I already have which results in zero ammonia and nitrites for the load in my tank. <Best to up the amount of live rock and also step up the water changes - perhaps 5% a week.
Cheers, J -- >

Nitrate Problem (8-24-03)
Sounds crazy- but we had a recent catastrophe when tank temp was at 95F for two days when our ac went out (live in FL). By the time I hooked up the chiller I had been prev contemplating, all corals most fish were dead. I had two clowns and a clown trigger still alive. LFS said the rock/sand might still be alive- we hooked chiller up and went thru many water changes, spikes etc. Finally some 2 months later, water seemed to stabilize, saw algae growing, some coral growth came back from some rocks. Purple coralline still looks purple, not sure if that means it is alive though. Tank actually looked really good. The three fish survived all. Thought we were out of the woods. Added some fish/corals- all ok. Added more- and major nitrate problem that I cant seem to get rid of. All other water params good/great. nitrates fluctuating from 50 to 100 despite water changes nearly every other day. sometimes 10 % sometimes as much as 50% depending on the nitrate level. <I would be helpful to add some new LR to the existing stuff to seed the old with whatever was lost.>
LFS said maybe the rocks/sand are harboring nitrates and causing the levels to go right back up. Suggest using a denitrification product of no harm to corals/inverts. What do you think?<I would not add any of these chemicals.>
I don’t have the best protein skimmer set up, but I cant imagine this is causing the prob to a value of 100.  I rinsed the bioballs with system water, cleaned every bit of detritus I could find, discarded every pad/filter pad/foam block that could be contributing, and still nitrates rise. Any suggestions?<Get rid of the bioballs.>
90 gallon reef tank, 6 fish, anemone, cleaner shrimp, 120lbs rock, wet/dry (set up for 2 yrs), marine life aquatics Aggressor -AIS150 skimmer that I can't seem to get to produce much gunk (overflow goes to bioballs first unfortunately), chiller, Mag pump that turns water over 4x/hr. ph 8.2, sp gr 1.023, ca 400, 10 dKH, PO4 .2, 0 amm, o nitrite, 100 nitrate, temp 86F. <I would slowly get rid of the bioballs slowly, like a handful every couple of days.  Also look into a RO unit or see if your LFS sells this water.>
Thinking about adding a few new live rocks to accelerate, changing water flow to go to skimmer first, maybe trying the denitrifying product, want to buy the Euro-reef skimmer. <I would do all these except adding the denitrate.> Someday want to get rid of the bio balls- but am afraid to do that right now. Your thoughts on what to do? Thanks. Your site has been such a great source of info. <A deep sand bed would also b helpful for reducing nitrates.  You can learn more about all this at our site.  The Euro reef skimmer would also be a very good idea.  Cody>

Purigen for Nitrate Issues?
>Was wondering if you knew anything more about Purigen?  
>>Sorry, never heard of it, shall Google.
>I currently have a 55 gallon fish only system.  My nitrates are through the roof, anywhere between 80ppm to 160 ppm.  I change 10 gallons of water about every other week.  
>>Well, you won't see results using that method.  Do a 75% w/c (do test the makeup water both before and after you mix the salts for nitrate), then retest.  Then, address initial nutrient export and conversion issues.
>I bought Algone to see if that would help with the problem, I've only had Algone in the filter for about a week now.  Does Algone even work?  
>>HIGHLY doubtful, tossing in one chemical to remove another when we can utilize naturally occurring microbes doesn't make much financial sense to me, my friend.  Consider a deep sand bed (for its denitrification abilities using anaerobic bacteria to convert nitrate to nitrogen gasses and other components), as well as a refugium for initial nutrient export issues that are leading to such high nitrate readings in the first place.
>I figured I would buy it cause for 8 dollars where could I go wrong.   
>>I'm an exceedingly frugal woman, Scott, and you'll be hard-pressed to get me to throw away $8!  It makes more sense, in the long run, to address these concerns (have you skimmate?  If so, is it efficient?) via other methods, and in the short term do at LEAST one 75% w/c.  You very well may have to do two, back to back, in this situation, but honestly, if you're gonna toss the money into the Algone, it's better spent on fresh water for your wards.  Just Googled it, it's a Seachem product, and I DO like Seachem, but again, it makes MUCH more sense to address these issues from the get-go, rather than go to such a product.  However, being Seachem, I would expect it to do as purported.
>Thank you again for your time.  Scott
>>You're welcome.  Marina

- Nitrates Be Gone! -
Hi Bob/Crew, <Hello, JasonC here...>
Just a quick question. I wonder if you heard of a denitrifying gizmo called Nitragon and produced in the UK. <I have heard of it, but have no experience with it.> I hear it gets rid of about 90% of nitrates and phosphates, but nothing else. <I wouldn't expect much else with a name like that.> Purists here in the UK advocate the use of RO units instead of it - Nitragon ok for LPS and soft corals but not LPS-, and as I am getting a new tank I wondered what you thought, whether they are worth it, or if I prepare the water in advance- a week or so- that would be ok to get rid of chlorine/-amine and other toxic stuff. <Nitrates in your mix water are really the least of your problems. Typically they come from natural processes in the system and your job is to make sure they don't accumulate. This can be accomplished via more natural means - a deep sand bed or large quantities of live rock. Both methods are discussed in our FAQs here and beyond:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dsbfaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/liverock1.htm
As for preparation of mix-water, that is also discussed in our articles and FAQs but I will quickly add that RO does have its uses, but is not essential unless your tapwater has got other things in it not easily removed by aeration over a couple of days. Do check out this article:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water4maruse.htm >
Thanks, Brightonreefer
<Cheers, J -- >

Using chemical nitrate removers - 02/17/03
Hello all:
<Hello! Ananda here…>
A question I'm a little embarrassed to ask as it seems rather simplistic; but in regards to chemical filtration (if that's the correct term) I currently use 2 products: Chemi-Pure and Cleanwater.  (Opinion on second?  I know the first is recommended on this board)
<No experience with it whatsoever – the only information I could find on it was on a Spanish-language retailer’s site. Thank goodness for online translation pages…it sounds like it’s a souped-up carbon replacement, if the manufacturer’s claims can be believed.>
My big question is proper placement and application. For instance: My big filter is the nitrate king Penguin 400.
<Hmmm. The Emperor 400 has the spray bar; the Penguin only goes up to 330. I have one of each, with the Emperor on a freshwater system and the Penguin on a brackish system. Nitrates are easily removed via water changes.>
My placement here was to move the carbon filters forward a notch so that there was room
to place the bags of above product behind them (in other words they are second in the flow) of course they promptly sank out sight... note these are not in any sort of cartridge - should they be??
<It would keep them from sinking out of sight…I would try putting them in the open-topped V-shaped media bins if you have them. The water will still move through them.>
The other bag (total of 3) is in my Skilter (modified) and it is in front of the carbon filter there as there was no way to move the filter from it's slot.  It also sank right to the bottom, so I pulled the top of the bag up a little and hooked it on the Skilter lid so that the bag hung in the middle instead of them bottom, but there seems to be no way of "flattening it" as the Manuf. Suggests...
<Is there any room in the Skilter to hang a (possibly modified) refillable media cartridge made by some other manufacturer? That’s about the only idea I’m coming up with.>
So - point me in the right direction here if I'm off
Next:  Am I wrong with thinking these things are effective at controlling nitrates? Or are they a sink in themselves??  
<Some might work, some won’t – and I suspect most could be a nitrate sink if left in place too long.>
I ask because I pulled my carbon filters from my Penguin the other day to rinse them off and upon reinstalling them I had to lift the Cleanwater bags up a bit since they had slid under the slot where the filters go, and when I looked down in my tank there was a cloud of "junk" like detritus floating around... a "Quick Dip" nitrate test showed them up to 160!!  (Up from about 40 the night before)
<The detritus not caught by the filter cartridges and the carbon in the filters are both potential nitrate sinks. You might consider rinsing them more frequently.>
I have a very lightly stocked 55g FOWLR so I would have noticed if something died - I accounted for all of them - there was no overfeeding, etc. as well.
Could these things have dumped all this in my water?
Xeones
<Could be from the filter cartridges not catching the stuff… but the original source is your fish and their wastes. You don’t mention how much live rock you have, or what you are using for substrate, so I would suggest you do some reading about deep sand beds and live rock. And do consider a skimmer upgrade. –Ananda.>

Raging Nitrates!
Good morning all!
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
Thank you once again for the valuable information provided on your site and the always (well, usually) great answers provided by email - hehe.  Let me begin by providing tank info: Marine FOWLR, 50 lbs live rock & 3 inches sand, 55 gal, 15w AquaUV, Teclima chiller, Remora Pro skimmer, FilStar canister filter, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 25 nitrates, 8.3 pH, good alk, 1.022 sal.
<Sounds good so far!>
One month ago the tank started growing furry green algae and blue-green algae out of control.  I ran out to get a nitrate test kit and found the levels to be >100.
<Yikes! And that's on a hobbyist-grade kit, which usually reads a bit lower than the actual level...!>
After successive large water changes and levels have dropped to 25 but I cannot seem to get them lower than this.  I realize that water changes should keep bringing the levels down but they seem to be stuck here.  I use Catalina water for changes and RO fresh water to bring it down to the proper salinity.  The Catalina water tests 0 nitrates when I get it.  I am not quite sure of the source.
I clean the filters in the canister every 3 to 4 weeks and the protein skimmer seems to be functioning adequately - about 1 cm worth of dark yellow water in the cup every 3 days.
<Good to hear that! Try to tweak it to get it darker...like coffee>
The algae problem is a bit more under control but still quite annoying.
<As you see me say "ad nauseum"(!) on the WWM Site, "It's all about nutrient export!"- it really is...Keep working it!>
Although, the fox face fish seems to love the green furry stuff.
<I've got some ideas....>
In an effort to rid myself of this nuisance I found a product from m3 called AZ-NO3 which I have seen used by some in the faq sections of this site.  It is stated, however, that a UV unit running at 50,000 microwatts - sec/cm2 or greater will negatively effect the efficiency of this product.  I am in that category.  I got the UV unit about 8 months ago when I was combating a recurrent marine velvet infection.  Whether the fish just gained immunity or the UV made a difference I do not know.  But, shortly after getting the UV the velvet went away.  I have been running it ever since.
<UV can certainly kill free-swimming parasites/bacteria, so it's entirely possible that it did the job effectively!>
Here is my problem/question, do you think I can safely disable the UV unit during the course of this treatment without causing ill effects to the fish through whatever biological processes will be given a chance to take hold?
<If the fishes are otherwise healthy, I can't imagine that the interruption of UV for a period of time would lead to a sudden disease outbreak..>
In other words, these fish have had UV cleaned water for 8 months now, do you think that turning off the sterilizer for a month will have negative consequences?  If so, should I consider cycling the UV in 12 hour shifts between doses?  Or, am I totally on the wrong path here at wanting this liquid to get rid of my problems for me?
<Well, not the wrong path, but I would bet that if you added a 5" layer of live sand, that you'd see the nitrate plunge to undetectable levels after a few weeks. Properly configured deep sand beds really work!>
Thank you again - I look forward to hearing your insights. John
<I'm sure that you'll get things under control with a few minor adjustments...I wish you continued success with your efforts! Regards, Scott F>

New Set up w/o NO3
Gentlemen,
Great web site, first visit. I used to have a 55 gallon reef tank with old style wet/dry and skimmer. Now, as I am setting up a new 72 gallon bowfront with overflow. My internet research indicates that the w/d, trickle filters are too efficient at removing ammonia and nitrites and that the resulting NO3 might have been responsible for the algae that I fought in my old system.
<Correct>
I tried nitrate and phosphate sponges, etc but is a lot of expense without too much results.
<Agreed, not cost effective.>
Although, I have already purchased most of the equipment for the new tank there is nothing there that cannot be listed on eBay with good reason. I plan to have 120-140lbs of LR in my tank. Based on my research I think I want to go with some sort of Berlin/LS combo. But I do not want any sand in my tank! I like the bare glass and easy removal of debris. How do I practically place sand in my sump?
<You can create what is referred to as a refugium in your sump.>
I would like to go the Rubbermaid route for the sump as my old acrylic one from the w/d is kinda small. In the sump, I will also have Berlin Turbo skimmer and Mag-Drive 9.5 pump for return to the tank. My concerns are that I do not want sand going through the skimmer, pump and into the main tank.
<The best designs I have seen using tubs were to have two tubs, one mounted slightly higher than the other. The higher tub having sand and liverock and gravity feeding into the lower tub with your skimmer, heater, and return pump.>
Also, that denitrification needs a slower flow than what will be found in my sump. My idea is to fill a 1 gallon Rubbermaid bucket with aragonite sand and run a drip tube with valve from my return hose to drip into the top of the bucket of sand, which would sit inside my sump. One side of the bucket would have a hole near the top that is screened by a filter pad from the inside so that sand would not escape but a slow flow of water would?
<Ok>
I am hoping that this rig would have areas of both aerobic and anoxic activity. Would this set up complement my LR with enough no3 removal or would it be a bigger risk for h2s?
<You should be fine. Anthony Calfo actually details this method in his book "Book of Coral Propagation.">
Would I need critters besides bacteria in it to keep it aerated or would the highly oxygenated water from my sump be enough to prevent excessive anaerobic activity.
<Worms and possibly some snails will do the work you want.>
I am starting anew. Your insight and recommendations would be welcome.
Thanks for your time. Mike
Sorry, additional information is that I was planning on using a tidepool three w/d but will go another route if its going to be no3 problem.
<The tub or even another tank would be a better choice.>
My lights are 6 x 55w pc. I would like most natural, least maintenance, non-chemical additive filter system. I would like my cake and eat it too.
Thanks again, Mike
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Nitrate/Phosphate Removers
Was recently looking at two products PO4-Minus and AZ-NO3 sold by Marine Monsters and several mail order places. They claim to reduce Nitrates and Phosphates by bringing them into a form that can be taken out by the protein skimmer. The chemical process by which this happens is somewhat vague, but the product seems to be endorsed by several seemingly reputable places. Sounds almost to good to be true! 
<Agreed... don't know the chemistry, physics behind/which are these products, but do know the two young men who are MMM... they are honest, hard-working>
I am not a big fan of additives beyond recognized supplements but was curious if your or any of your associates have had any experience with this product.
<Only know what I have read, heard second or more hand... Am much more a fan of "nutrient transport" mechanisms for consolidating, making unavailable such nutrients in closed systems. Various general attempts at making this known can be found on WetWebMedia.com under the terms named. Bob Fenner>
Thanks
Randy Carothers-Las Vegas

AZ-NO3 Nitrate removal cure...
I wanted to get your feedback on this product AZ-NO3 (http://www.marine-monsters.com/front/products/azno3.html). I have never tried any "wonder pills" for nitrate removal, and have a feeling you won't recommend this either, but I had to ask. I've read through your FAQs about nitrate removal sponges, additives, etc... but I just had to ask.
Thanks for the info.
<I have never used this product and I am guessing no one else here has either as this question is still here. Either way, any nutrient removal product is not as cost effective nor as good for your animals overall health as good protein skimming, DSB, proper feeding techniques, use of purified water, regular water changes, etc. -Steven Pro><<This product works... and is non-toxic. RMF>>

Question (Urchins... danger of "Internet" learning/knowing...)
Hello there,
I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind. The first, my water seemed a little cloudy Sunday so I tested it. All the #'s were off except the ammonia. I changed 20 gallons of water (have 125). The nitrate never went down so I got this nitrate sponge to reduce it. The bottle says it takes a couple weeks to make a significant change. The water is still a little cloudy today. do I need another change or do I wait or do I need to buy something because all my #'s are OK except the nitrate.
<How much "off" is your nitrate?... I wouldn't change any water till your system clears... and I would not rely on a sponge to do anything here. Please read over the FAQs on NO3 on our site: http://wetwebmedia.com/no3probfaqs.htm>
Do I not feed them for a few days? 
<Feed what? I would continue to feed... and look into countervailing strategies for avoiding nitrate accumulation, culturing organisms that utilize these compounds>
It's irritating.
Also my friend brought me some sea urchins the other day. Another friend said to get rid of them because they let off a zillion babies. Well, now around them crawling all over the glass are these little things. Babies? 
<No... please read over the WWM site re Urchins, Echinoderms in general...>
well how do I get rid of them? I wouldn't think it's too smart to have all those things in there.
Your input will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again
Jenn
<You really will be happier and your system more successful by "taking a few steps back" here... do get a good reference work or two, and stop "doing" anything with this system till you have a better grasp on what is going on in your tank. Bob Fenner>