Green Spotted Puffer <ID, sexing, gen.>, clown, snails... 30 gal... 5k US $?!!!..... 11/18/2007
I've written in the past regarding GSP's sexing and breeding. I was the one who mentioned the girl at the local pet store who said she'd visually sexed and then bred GSP's. Jeni told me that she was sure she (girl at store) was mistaken and she must be talking about dwarf puffers. I went back to the store for clarity, and she assured me that it was not dwarves, but GSP's. Anyway, it's neither here nor there to my current situation (just wanted to post an update).
<I do absolutely agree with Jeni here. You (or the LFS person) described a dark line at belly of the males. Such lines are a keel, which some puffer species (genus Carinotetraodon) have. It can be erected e.g. during courtship. GSP do not have this keel (many have been dissected). Therefore, if this person bred puffers that had black belly lines, they were of the genus Carinotetraodon and no GSP. Does not mean they were Dwarf Puffers, other Carinotetraodon spp. have been bred, too. I do not say it is impossible to breed GSP, but some details of this specific story (black line, size of the fish) make it sound unlikely GSP were bred here.>
I know this will be quite lengthy, but I'm hoping to convey to you my interest and efforts and the out-n-out headaches I've experienced. I also hope that others MAY learn from my mistakes. All of this was a HUGE learning experience for me. I'm growing and learning and really TRYING to do the right things.
<Sounds good so far.>
Okay, about a year ago, I bought the cutest little fish I'd ever seen. This was before researching (have I learned a LOT in the last year). My GSP was put in a freshwater community tank. I eventually moved him out and put him into a 30 gallon tank of his own and stared raising the SG with Instant Ocean. I used SeaFlor shell substrate (looks like a bunch of small coral chunks and hermit shells), lots of plastic plants and reef "bone" to build tunnels. Once the SG hit 1.018, I went to a pet store and struck up a conversation with an employee there. Even though I was researching like mad, I didn't feel prepared or knowledgeable enough to make the conversion to full marine on my own. I knew basically nothing and I trusted this guy.
I paid him to come to my house, remove the substrate and replace it with live sand (Fiji pink), he also brought lots of live rock and some Tonga branch. He constructed a beautifully scaped setup that is quite unique. I was convinced to upgrade EVERYTHING mechanical for my tank (basic Eclipse setup that was eventually "gutted" in order to incorporate a Fluval 405 and a Red Sea skimmer while maintaining the look of the Eclipse hood).
So, now I had this "condo on the beach" for Pete (the puffer) and Pete had his own personal trainer, lol (the tank man).
All went well with the conversion, so I hired this guy to come weekly for water changes. He continually brought things for my tank that I didn't ask for, never expressed a desire for, but was ASSURED they would be great compatible additions for my tank. I kept researching but felt very pressured to buy the things he brought.
<Here is were the problems began. If you do not want something he is bringing along, you have to say so clearly. When someone is trying to sell you something and you feel pressured leave him alone or send him away.>
Eventually, the 30 gallon held Pete, a mated pair of true Percula's (charged $100.00 for),
<Tank is too small for them and the GSP, not only because of water quality, but territoriality. Prices are pretty high, even if I convert $ into some hard currency.>
3 Firefish (charged $75.00 for),
<Tank is too small for them, the clowns and the GSP.>
2 blood shrimp (charged $75.00 for), 2 anemones that died immediately (of course, I was charged for these, too), 2 Hawaiian Feather Dusters ($30), 2 Florida Fighting Conchs (don't remember the price), a Flame Scallop ($?), Ricordea mushrooms ($50.00), yellow polyps ($45) and that's all I can remember at the moment.
<Again: high prices for this small world.>
With each new addition, I researched and travelled to neighbouring cities to provide the specialized food needed (DT's Phytoplankton for scallop and feather dusters). My freezer is full of frozen fish food as well as human food I've bought for the fish. I eventually tore down the tank and removed all of the fish except for 1 Firefish I couldn't catch and Pete and the two clowns and a Scooter Blenny I purchased myself (which I add purchased Tigger-Pods and other copepods on a regular basis). My tank is teeming with Mysis shrimp, amphipods, and the Coralline has taken off (I upgraded lights and started added calcium supplements while watching my pH). My tank currently houses the Blenny, a Firefish, the two Fire shrimp (which reproduce, AMAZING to see the little critters swimming around),
<Good to hear of this success.>
2 conchs, 2 Nassarius snails, 2 Mexican turbo snails, 1 Margarita snail, various mushrooms, a torch coral that the clowns have started hosting, 2 sea stars (1 brittle, 1 serpent), the polyps and some star polyps. I also have a nasty hitchhiker crab I haven't been able to catch along with some very large bristleworms.
Pete, though, ended up being unhappy.
<This is not a reef species. They can be kept at marine conditions, some zoological gardens and many hobbyists do that, but GSP most commonly occur in coastal mangrove areas, estuaries and frequently enter rivers. Although some of these environments may have full strength seawater salinity, none of their natural habitats is comparable to a reef tank. The main reason to keep a GSP at marine salinity is that due to skimmers and live rock it is easier to keep the water quality permanently high.>
GO FIGURE. He was pacing all the time, and losing weight though eating regularly (he's fed snails occasionally, squid, Selcon and phytoplankton loaded live brine, Mysis shrimp, dried plankton (reconstituted with Selcon, Zoe marine, Marine C, and Garlic Extreme).
<The diet sounds good, maybe feed more bivalves and snails as the main staple.>
In conjunction with his weight loss and pacing, I noticed a large chunk taken out of the female clown's pectoral fin (I suspect that her aggression increased once she and the male started hosting the torch. I think she "attacked" Pete one too many times and he bit back).
<Some GSP are quite aggressive, a few do not accept tankmates at all.>
I haven't lost any of the snails or shrimps to the puffer (except for the baby Blood's that he, and the rest of my fish, ate).
I knew this impossible situation wouldn't work and I was disheartened because of all of the energy, effort, and money spent over the last year (I'm approaching about $5,000 at the moment on a 30 GALLON TANK).
<Yikes… does this tank maintaining person have a wooden leg, an eye patch and a hook instead of a hand? You wanted a tank for a GSP and not a high end reef tank, did you?.>
The original tank was started for PETE, and I felt like my ignorance (even though researching voraciously in all of my spare moments....there's a whole WORLD of information about marine tanks. While I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent (if not too gullible) I simply couldn't absorb all the information I needed to know while I allowed the inertia of the tank to snowball out of control).
<Start with some books, e.g. Bob’s book, and sites like WWM instead of paying 1000s of dollars for questionable advice. Not all LFS employees and owners are pirates, but without researching much by yourself, you will have a hard time to evaluate whose advice is good and who will make you pay for thing you do not want or need. Reading is the easiest way to achieve enough knowledge to make your own experiences and reasonable decisions. Without reading you are likely to fail or become a treasure chest. Advanced fellow hobbyists re usually a more reliable source of information, local clubs are good places to get into contact with them.>
My willingness to trust someone whom I believed sensed my desperation to "act" for my fish and willingness to open my pocketbook for my hobby saw an easy way to make money. I'm truly not trying to come off like a victim...I let Pete's Personal trainer after he came to my house and installed an EcoAqualizer ( I told him 3 times not to do it) and charged me $250 for this contraption and for and cleaning the 30 gallon tank. He never left my house for less than $90 and that was for simply cleaning the 30 gallon.
<Hope you can return the hardware you do not want and get your money back. Possibly talk to the boss of this person.>
Alas, one of my friends gave me a 28 gallon tank. I added the water from a LFS's main display tank, added Fiji pink sand, a bubble wand (Pete loves these), plastic plants and a huge chunk of live rock. I added the LFS's tank water because we have to go out of town and I wouldn't be here if any cycling went on while we were gone. I have a Whisper filter running on it along with a submersible Fluval filter. No ammonia, no nitrites, and nitrates below 20. I look to upgrade the filtration and lighting within the next two months (Christmas is coming).
<OK. A skimmer would be a good addition, it could remove nitrogenous waste before it is turned into nitrates by the filters. Since you have a FOWLR (fish only with live rock) tank you do not need the Whisper and the Fluval for anything, but some current. Ideally the live rock should do all the biological filtration. In case you remove them or replace them by a small powerhead, do not remove both at the same time to avoid a minicycle.>
Several months ago I started a 3 gallon Eclipse tank for breeding snails. There are a few large Ramshorn snails in the tank that lay eggs regularly, but I'm not seeing many babies grow. The eggs hatch, I see a large amount of dots (baby snails) and then I don't see them any more. I have a chunk of cuttlefish bone to harden the water, I use no heater, the filtration is the simple Eclipse filtration and there is a huge wad of java moss. I feed regularly with algae tablets (that don't contain any kind of copper), bloodworms, and Betta pellets. I don't change the water that often. I read somewhere that most success comes from using water change water from another tank. There is no substrate.
On to my questions:
1) Today I accidentally fed Pete a Malaysian Trumpet Snail (it was mixed in with my Ramshorn snails). He ate the whole snail, shell and all. Will this hurt him? It was small enough that he could swallow the whole thing.
<Some puffer keepers report that the shells of these snails are hard enough to break the teeth of a puffer. As long as this did not happen he will likely be fine.>
2) Should I add a sponge over the intake on the 3 gallon Eclipse snail breeder tank? Do you think that is where the baby snails are disappearing to (getting sucked up the intake and ending up on the filter pad)?
<Possible, have a look a that pad to confirm. You could try adding a sponge.>
Should I add a small heater (I just bought one).
<A heater can accelerate the snail breeding, but be careful not to over heat this small volume of water.>
3) Is it okay to use fresh RO/DI water for the snail tank?
<No. It has no hardness the snails need to build up their shells, the cuttlefish bone alone will not be sufficient.>
Should I use treated tap water?
<Yes, that’s better.>
I've read the few articles online about rearing snails, but I'm at an impasse.
<Have a look at www.thepufferforum.com. You’ll find more information there.>
3) With diligent water changes and eyes on water parameters, will Lulu's fin heal (the female Clown whose pectoral fin was bitten)? I think Pete bit her into the "meat" of the fin, although I don't see any sores or anything alarming (besides the chunk missing).
<Will likely heal. If the bases of some fin rays have been removed, they will not grow back again but Lulu will probably get well, again. Anyway, watch the wound for possible infections.>
I know this was long and I thank you if you've read thus far.
<No problem. Only the part about your puffer trainer was horrible and hopefully will warn some people not always to believe everything they are told.>
This past year has been an increasingly stressful experience for me (and my livestock, no less). I was trying to do the right things, which, many of them, ended up being the most wrong things to do.
<I hope you are on the right track now and still able to enjoy this mostly wonderful hobby. Read on, learn and the mistakes of the past will not be in vain.>
Thank you for any and all help, Corinthian.
<I hope I helped. Cheers and good luck. Marco.>

Re: Green Spotted Puffer, clown, snails..... 11/20/2007
Marco~
Thanks for your response!
<Welcome.>
I really liked the way you explained the genus differences between the puffers. I really tried to "pin down" more information from the girl at the LFS, but she seemed to be wishy-washy using a lot of "I don't remember" to my questions. The size of the fish, as SHE described them, matched the size of GSP's. I thought I was going to stumble on some kind of new "break-thru" information regarding GSP sexing and breeding. Silly me. Lol
<<I don’t think this was silly. There are several people claiming GSP were bred, but so far hard evidence is missing.>>
<Here is were the problems began. If you do not want something he is bringing along, you have to say so clearly. When someone is trying to sell you something and you feel pressured leave him alone or send him away.>
I hear ya, Marco. The way he handled things was very slick and I'm not nearly as naive as I used to be. As I've said, I really learned a lot.
<<That’s great to hear. The more knowledge, the less trouble, the more fun.>>
<This is not a reef species. They can be kept at marine conditions, some zoological gardens and many hobbyists do that, but GSP most commonly occur in coastal mangrove areas, estuaries and frequently enter rivers. Although some of these environments may have full strength seawater salinity, none of their natural habitats is comparable to a reef tank. The main reason to keep a GSP at marine salinity is that due to skimmers and live rock it is easier to keep the water quality permanently high.>
No wonder he was so unhappy. His current tank is only 28 gallons, but is what I could pull together on the spur of the moment. I know he'll be much happier in it.
<<I wish him (and you) a long and happy life.>>
<The diet sounds good, maybe feed more bivalves and snails as the main staple.>
He won't touch clams or oysters...even when soaked in Selcon & Garlic Extreme.
<<Did you open them? Smaller puffers are often unable to crush too large bivalves. It is true their teeth need abrasion, but bivalves are also good food, because of their nutritional value. So, it is ok to open them for the puffer. The GSPs I know eat almost everything (plants, flakes, wood, fingernails), your specimen seems to be more picky.>>
There were some small bivalves that hitchhiked in with the live rock. He never touched them. Maybe in his new tank, where he is the only fish in it, he will become more "territorial" and more willing to "investigate" resulting in him eating more clams and oysters. Hhhhmmm....maybe he was "over stimulated" or on "overload" in the other tank and that's why he didn't bother anything in it.
<<Possibly stressed by all the unknown life and Cnidarians in there.>>
My snails just aren't living to sizes large enough to feed him right now, but I do supplement them with fish store nuisances when I can.
<Yikes… does this tank maintaining person have a wooden leg, an eye patch and a hook instead of a hand? You wanted a tank for a GSP and not a high end reef tank, did you?>
Yes, the tank was for the GSP. I said I wanted something very simple. But, then I "needed" this or "needed" that and with the additions that showed up....they were so pretty, and I'm sure you know how things like that often go. I would have never bought those things myself (file clam, tube anemone that I had to get rid of, etc. etc.), but when they were brought to my house and I was assured by someone "in the know" that they would be great in my tank....well, now I have a tank for THOSE things and a new one for the GSP. Boy was I stupid. My future plans are to have a 90-120 gallon tank. I really want a Dog Face Puffer.
<<Great fish, too.>>
<Start with some books, e.g. Bob’s book, and sites like WWM instead of paying 1000s of dollars for questionable advice. Not all LFS employees and owners are pirates, but without researching much by yourself, you will have a hard time to evaluate whose advice is good and who will make you pay for thing you do not want or need. Reading is the easiest way to achieve enough knowledge to make your own experiences and reasonable decisions. Without reading you are likely to fail or become a treasure chest. Advanced fellow hobbyists re usually a more reliable source of information, local clubs are good places to get into contact with them.>
I have TCMA by Mr. Fenner as well as Bornemann's book. I just bought Wilkerson's book on clownfish (now I'm in love with my clowns). I read all of these voraciously when I'm NOT reading WetWebMedia.
<<Sounds like you are well prepared now.>>
This has been my "home" since I found this site when searching for GSP information. AND, I was reading this site, but as I said in my previous post, I couldn't read enough fast enough and I was letting things get out of control. By the time I was learning what I needed to know about Zoanthids and Ricordea, I was having to learn about tube anemones....see what I'm saying? I don't know why it was so difficult for me to just put my foot down, but it was. A mistake I won't make again.
<<We live to learn.>>
I live in the FL panhandle and I can't find any local clubs (even when searching on the net).
<<You could ask at http://www.swfmas.com/ if they are aware of clubs in NW Florida. Also check MASNA: Marine Aquarium Societies of North America (If you want to start a club it may be worth talking to them anyway). I’d be surprised if there was no club in the entire area, especially in cities like Pensacola, Tallahassee.>>
I have a girlfriend who just got into the hobby not too long ago. We've talked about starting some sort of society, but I don't even know where to begin....but I'd LOVE to do it! Just in the last 2 months, my friend's 120 gallon tank broke on the bottom and flooded her house. She was able to salvage her live rock and a couple of fish and a bit of sand (her tank had just finished cycling). Another friend treated his 90 gallon reef tank with antibiotics and it killed EVERYTHING in his tank. He was devastated. Had I known he was GOING to do that, I would have done what I could to stop him. So, we NEED some type of society here where we can all get together and share information and frags and create friendships with others who love this hobby. If you can lead me in the right direction, I'll be glad to follow up with it.
<<One way to get in touch with new fellow hobbyists to meet, share information and swap items and animals, possibly on a regular basis, are the different LFSs. Depends on how outgoing you are and if you like talking to strangers. Second way to find people is to look for local ads in newspapers and the net, especially people already selling or swapping frags. When you have found a small group of friendly reefers/fish keepers you could try to find a place and date to meet, have a drink and share aquarium stories. That’s how it usually starts. Sometimes it stays at this informal level, sometimes a club is formed. Also consider thepufferforum.com as you are interested in puffers. It is a great place for experience exchange, too.>>
I've duly noted your advice regarding my specific questions.
<<Hope it helped.>>
Marco, I think I'm on the right track now. This website provides a plethora of information. I just read and absorb everything I can and I just LOVE this place. Thank you and to all who offer such immeasurable information and support. Corinthian
<<You are welcome and I wish you good luck with your future endeavours. Marco.>>