Metronidazole for breeding pair... Symphysodon   9/16/09
Dear Crew
We have been doing a lot of reading, and are still somewhat confused about the dosage for Metronidazole.
We have a breeding pair of Red Turquoises and have had them for about 3 months now. The male went off his food quite a few weeks ago and had white stringy poo, so we treated him with Octozin by Waterlife. His symptoms improved and we thought he started eating again. We also treated the female with Octozin and then put the pair back together.
<Never found Octozin terribly useful, to be honest.>
In the last couple of weeks however, we have noticed that he is taking in food and then spitting it out again and swimming off rather than eating the smaller pieces of food. We also have not noticed him poo at all. He is dark in colour and hanging at the top of the tank.
<Sounds like Hexamita or similar; do review things like diet, water temperature, and nitrate concentration, all relevant facts where cichlids are concerned.>
We read that the most likely thing to be wrong is flagellates and the best treatment for this is Metronidazole, however we have found many conflicting methods for dosage.
<Optimal dosage is quoted in milligrams per kilogram of fish weight. The fish can then be *fed* the precise amount of medication required for proper effect. Because so few people know how heavy their fish are, fishkeepers tend to go with a milligram per litre dosage instead, e.g., 250 mg per 37.5 litres/10 US gallons (you will find both higher and lower dosages recommended in the literature). But with the best will in the world, this is a rough-and-ready approach. Your vet will have a listed dosage in milligrams per kilogram fish weight, and you'd be best going along with that.>
We live in the UK and have obtained 200mg tablets from our local vet. We have the pair in a 100litre tank, all water parameters are fine and we are raising the temperature to 32 degrees C (as we read that Metronidazole will not work at temperatures lower than this) Currently it is at 30 degrees and the male's colour has already improved, although his stress bars are still visible. Please could you advise us what the optimum course of treatment for Discus would be.
We were also wondering if there was any information regarding whether this drug affects the fertility of fish, in particular Discus, as we recently found out that Acriflavine can cause fish to become sterile.
<Not heard of any such side effects re: Metronidazole, but an infertile fish is certainly better than a dead one, so can't imagine this being an issue as such.>
Thank you for your time, look forward to hearing from you.
Joe and Harriotte.
<Cheers, Neale.>

help Hexamita problem ?? Discus dis. f'   8/18/09 Hi crew, <Abhishek> Firstly thanks a ton for the previous times you guys have helped and the way the site is kept up. Ok have two queries... 1. My discus in a planted tank seem to have got Hexamita (seems) attaching some pics along. The fish have very good appetite and am feeding them freeze dried blood worms, freeze dried Tubifex, NLS spectrum Thera +A , NLS discs formula, NLS spectrum grow. <None of which have medicinal value for treating Octomita/Hexamita> Tank size is 48' * 18 * 18'. Water is changed twice weekly 30% with RO water . PH is a 6.8 mainly due to the driftwood. Ammonia is 0. Filtration is by 2 Eheim 2217 canister filters which house sponge in one and carbon with Zeolite in another. Water temperature is kept at 28 degrees with the help of a Jager 300 watt heater. Lighting consists of 6 compact fluorescents of 30 watts each. All the rest of the fish that include Angels <A poor idea to mix these with Symphysodon... see WWM, books re> and Ramirezi are thriving. the discus do get ample of food and still are getting paper thin, with black spots or pepper on the body. There is no aggression in the tank so far. It has been up and running for the past 11 months now. Feaces of the smaller discus are a little pale but not white completely. My LFS sent me Intestinal Hexamita clear medicine, as he has seen remarkable results with it . You can check the stuff at http://www.bigfish88.com/ . <The ingredients are not listed... little is in English...> Would like to know if I should start giving Metrogyl <What is this? Metronidazole hopefully> and Nitrofuranace to the fish. 2. My 2 inch FH has a bloated stomach, is of food and sitting on the bottom of the tank. Prior to this I did see white stringy knotted feaces hanging from him. Just bought this guy 10 days back. H is in a temporary tank of 36'* 18 '* 18' with two Aquael unfiltered 1000. Temp is at 30 degree PH is 7.5 ,ammonia is 0. I have done 50% and then next day 30% water change now added Metrogyl 500mg (IV form) 50 ml and Nitrofuranace to the tank as he is not eating. Have cleaned the filters also. Attaching pics f him also. Need help. -- Abhishek Singh Gaur Adios Amigos. <... you crashed our mail server, by sending 30 some Megs of images... 100's of Kbytes is all we allow. Follow directions... Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/hexoctfwfs.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: help Hexamita problem ??  8/18/09 Hi Bob, Yes Metrogyl is Metronidazole I have it in IV form of 500mg concentration. <Ahh, so, I take it you will be injecting this... rather than hoping to administer via ingestion> The angels were put in on request of my daughter, but they are going to the LFS as planned. <Ah good> Sorry about the crash caused will send the pics again. <No need> still waiting for a reply to my second query. <Please see WWM (again) re Octomita... and Metronidazole... can't be just  added to the water... BobF>

Discus Not Growing   7/23/09
Hi, I have a 75-gallon tank with 5 Discus, a Uaru, a Rummynose, and a small assortment of various Cory catfish. The Discus and, especially, the Uaru, are growing nicely; however, one of the two Cobalt Blue Discus I have is as small as he was when I got him and the others about 9 months ago. Even the one that is growing is doing so at a very slow pace, but at least he's growing. The runt, or "little guy," which is what I tend to refer to him as, seems to be eating his fair share of food, which consists primarily of frozen blood worms (mosquito larvae), brine shrimp, and plankton, during every feeding. Also, the water is always crystal clear and kept at a steady 82 degrees, at times, 83 or even 84 on the really hot days of Summer. 30% water changes are done once a week as well. All things considered, in addition to him acting healthy and his colors being so vibrant, I am stumped as to why the "little guy" is not growing. I say, "little guy," but, for all I know, he could very well be a she. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Regards, Gregg
< Three things could be the cause. The first is nutrition. With a varied diet like that, nutrition should not be the problem unless he is being chased away from the food and actually getting less food than the other
fish.. The second is water quality. High nitrogenous wastes interfere with the growth of young fish. High protein diets do produce lots of this waste. The ammonia and nitrites should be zero and the nitrates should be under 20 ppm. <<Much lower. RMF>>  The last is genetics. In the wild small fish are removed from the gene pool by predators. No such predators are usually found in an aquarium. Most commercial discus breeders sell everything they produce with little concern for long term results. I'm afraid you just may have a runt.-Chuck>

Discus with white poop - weighing options – 06/12/09
Hello Crew,
<Hello,>
Not long ago I got two new Stendker Discus from Discus Hans in Baltimore.
They are in an established 75 gallon tank, pH 7.6, temp 82, GH 8 degrees, ammonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=10ppm. Tankmates are two other discus, a few tetras, 4 cories, and 2 small Plecos.
<I'm not wild about mixing Corydoras with Discus; with the exception of Corydoras sterbai, most traded Corydoras prefer cooler water than Discus, so one or other species ends up being stressed and has a shorter life than otherwise.>
I noticed a couple days ago that the larger of the two fish (5") became less interested in food and began spitting out the blood worms I have been feeding them. Today I noticed that the fish had a white poop coming out and had little or no interest in eating.
<Well, most fish prefer a variation of food, and will bore of any one thing. So if you're keeping Discus, it's a good idea to cycle bloodworms, brine shrimps, earthworms, daphnia, flake foods and pellets through the
week. Beef heart is an old stand-by, and you can add this to your frozen food collection, though aquarists tend to use this food sparingly rather than the as the staple that it once was. Letting fish starve for 24 hours
does them no harm at all, and often they take foods willingly afterwards that they otherwise ignored.>
I did some research on the discus forums online and of course as is the case with nearly any issue like this, there are as many different diagnoses and cures being suggested as there are people posting. I don't want to
blindly medicate the fish, but from what I read, the problem seems to either be Hexamita or intestinal worms depending on who you ask. My questions are as follows:
<Hexamita infections are quite common among tank-bred cichlids, and some argue they're ubiquitous, and merely switch from being harmless to lethal only if environmental conditions and/or diet shortcomings allow.>
1. I think hex is the more likely scenario. Do you agree, or do you think worms more likely, or do you think it would be better to medicate for both types of parasites.
<I'd go with metronidazole first, since the copious production of pale (mucous-rich) faeces is a classic symptom of Hexamita infection.>
2. If I medicate the entire tank with metronidazole or Praziquantel, will either of these medications affect the biological filtration of the tank?
<Used correctly, the filter should be unharmed; the one treats Protozoans, the other helminths, and neither is strongly anti-bacterial.>
3. I have not had good luck saving any other fish that I have removed to an outside tank and medicated. If I do nothing, do you think there is any chance the fish could recover on its own?
<Cichlids rarely recover from Hexamita infections on their own; it's almost always lethal unless treated early on.>
4. If I medicate the fish in a separate, uncycled tank, would I be able to use Amquel to keep ammonia in check, or would using Amquel adversely affect the potency of the medication?
<Would treat all the fish together on the assumption cross-contamination is likely, even probable.>
Thanks for your help.
Joe
<Cheers, Neale.>

Help me (Symphysodon; mystery deaths) 6/6/09
Hello dear Neale,
<Hello again,>
How are you? I hope you will be fine there. Neale I have 4 discus in my tank of 90 gallon.
<Should be kept in groups of six or more; in smaller groups, Discus tend to be bullies, until just one mated pair is left, and the others are so battered they have to be removed.>
Neale I am used to feed them twice a day and they finish all of them in 2 to 3 minutes. Neale today my small discus died and I observed it from last 2 days it was showing in balance in its movement while swimming.
<I need more information that this. What's the water chemistry? What's the water quality? To recap, Discus need 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, less than 20 mg/l nitrate, less than 10 degrees dH hardness, and a steady pH somewhere between 6 and 7.5.>
I think it died due to swim bladder disease or due to the constipation problem?
<Neither is likely. Discus aren't especially prone to constipation, and on the usual diet of good quality flake foods plus frozen (or live) invertebrates should do very well. "Swim Bladder Disease" is a catch-all name given by some hobbyists to a range of different things. Almost always, when fish die from what people think is "Swim Bladder Disease", they actually died because of something else. For example, water quality problems, inadequate diet, etc. In the case of Discus, you can add to this pH stress when people try to keep them in soft water without using a buffer, and starvation, when Discus are forced to compete with more active fish. Discus are sensitive to certain parasites carried by Angelfish, and if the two species are mixed, Discus may sicken and die. Not always, but sometimes. So how the Discus are kept prior to you purchasing them matters as well.>
I don’t know Neale what happened wrong? Water condition is perfect. Please tell me that what is swim bladder and constipation problem and how can we cure our fish? What is the cause of these two diseases? How can we prevent them? I am very much depressed why is these disease are so common in fish? Please help me, waiting for your reply.
Thank you,
Ali Zaheer
<Much written about Symphysodon, here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/discusfish.htm
Good luck, Neale.>

Discus... stress beh., hlth., incomp. with angels    12/12/08
Good afternoon,
I am hoping you can help me out with a discus problem.
Currently I have a 330 litre tank with a ph of 6.4 and temp at 28C as well as quite a few fishes,
20 Rummy nose
4 bristle nose
4 angel fish (paired, very territorial)
10 Zebra Danios
1 blue diamond discus
4 red melon discus
(Is this too many for the tank?)
<Sounds great. But Angels can be quite waspish, so I'd watch how the Discus behave. It's pretty common for Angels to bully Discus. There's also a risk of transmitting diseases that Angels don't seem too bothered by, but can cause real problems for Discus.>
The red melons were added 6 days ago. On the 1st day they got "head butted" by the blue diamond a fair bit, I read up on a site and dismissed it as a greeting of some sort.
<Well, Discus are hierarchical, but if you upped the group to six, I'd fully expect them to settle right down.>
Now the 4 red melons are slowly showing black patches on their face. There is one that is particularly bad, his upper and lower fin has a dark shade around the edges while his back fin has gone from clear to black. I've read your previous posts about unhappy discus turning black, in my case it is only to their head and fins their body is still bright red.
<Could well be stress; Discus when stressed typically show a series of dark vertical bars on the flanks. I'd carefully observe the interactions within the Discus group, as well as between the Discus and Angels. But as ever with Discus, do a quick check of water quality and especially water chemistry. In soft water tanks pH can drop rapidly, and as pH drops, biological filtration becomes less efficient, basically stopping altogether at around 6.0. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Discus  12/14/08
Thank you Neale, for the prompt reply,
I will move the Angels out in the next couple of day and put in 2 more red melons.
Will let you know how it goes.
Regards,
Leon
<Sounds like you have a good plan there. Let me know if things still don't work out. Good luck! Neale.>

Discus with I believe with HLLE (yep!)  11/05/08 Hi I have a 75 gal tank with 8 Discus four are the size of the picture I am sending and the remaining being silver dollar in size. Filtration is a Penguin BioWheel 350 filtered with Bio ceramic filter balls and filter cartridges w/activated carbon, second one is a whisper filter 60 gal that I use filter cartridges with. 1 airstone. Gravel1-1 1/2" deep. Artificial silk plants. Feeding is as follows: San Fran Bay Frozen Spirulina Brine shrimp, San Fran Bay frozen beef heart, Beef heart flakes, Hikari bio encapsulated w/vitamins bloodworms, Hikari microwafers, frozen plankton, omega one color flakes, omega one vitamin flakes, Tetra cichlid sticks. I dose the water with VitaChem once a week and add to frozen food. I vary the food giving flakes and frozen everyday and feed 4-5 times a day. Water parameters today are: AMM- 0, Nitrite- 0.3, PH- 7.5, temp- 85 degrees. Water changes are done once a week at 75% change with Kordon NovAqua Plus. I want to make sure this is HLLE I noticed Sunday clear matter floating around like poop but totally transparent note all fish have normal poo.  This was discovered on fish yesterday added salt and this morning it is worse can you let me if I am correct in HLLE and I've read the threads metro is what I should use. The first picture is yesterday, next two are today. <Greetings. This does indeed look very much like Head-and-Lateral-Line-Erosion, or HLLE. This disease is "caused" by one of two things, possibly working in combination, though the precise details are obscure. The Hexamita parasite is at least partially involved, and while normally associated with problems with the digestive tract (commonly observed as white, stringy feces due the excess mucous production) the parasites somehow can spread to the surface of the fish under certain situations. Once that happens they cause the sensory pits on the head and flanks to become infected and ultimately the pits decay, causing the tell-tale wounds we call Hole-in-the-Head (HITH) or HLLE, depending on where the wounds are seen. It is possible Hexamita is latent in many fish, and only under specific situations does it become a problem, and both diet and water quality seem to be extremely probable triggering factors. With cichlids, any nitrate level about 20 mg/l seems to lead to a, elevated risk of HLLE/HITH. Every cichlid I have ever seen with the disease was in an overcrowded tank or one with infrequent water changes, and this is based partly on observations of my own mistakes! Bob Fenner has also written convincingly about the appearance of HLLE/HITH in marine fish as being closely related to lack of vitamins. Herbivorous fish are particularly prone to receiving inadequate diets, and cichlids are overwhelmingly at least partially herbivorous in the wild. Even fish-eating cichlids will be consuming herbivorous fish, and in that way consuming the plant material in the guts of their prey. Tinned peas, Spirulina flake and cooked spinach are usually taken by even the most carnivorous cichlids. So while the immediate treatment is Metronidazole, long term you need to review water quality and diet, and see if there's anything there you can improve. Cheers, Neale.>