Lipstick Tang DisF3

FAQs about Naso lituratus Disease-Health 2

FAQs on Lipstick Tang Disease: Lipstick Tang Disease 1, Lipstick Tang Disease 3, Lipstick Tang Disease 4, Lipstick Tang Disease ,
FAQs on Lipstick Tang Disease by Category: Diagnosis, Environmental, Nutritional, Social, Trauma, Pathogenic (plus see Tangs/Rabbitfishes & Crypt), Genetic, Treatments

Surgeonfishes: Tangs for Marine Aquariums
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by Robert (Bob) Fenner

Re: High nitrate's effects on Nasos skin? Naso Tang/Health 3/28/09
Greetings Salty Dog.
<Hello Dee>
I have re-read your instructions regarding that skimmer tube, and saw my mistake in reading them. My sincerest apologies.
<No problem.>
I returned it to its upright position, pushed it back down 1/2" as you told me, and will watch for color of skimmate for the next 2 days. Attached are 4 images of my set up. My Nasos blotchy skin, full tank view, close up of skimmer, and close up of sump. I live in Victorville, California. I am on my way out to get the Salifert test kits, I have seen them. I agree with you 200%. I should have asked more, learned more upfront. I had been talking with this local LFS for 2 yrs. prior to set up. He assured me he would install the best needed for my system, and teach me along the way. He installed all of this, stiffed me on everything except the water. We discussed my lack of knowledge, I begged him not to just install it and leave, he said he wouldn't. But once he got paid, he began failing to show up for meetings/maintenance/water changes/questions, voicemail stays on, haven't heard from him since. Found a different shop, that person has been maintaining this tank for a year. I called my self learning while he was doing it, obviously not nearly enough. My fault. I took over water changes just 5 months ago. Reading Bob's book, the FAQ's here, visiting lots of shops within 100 mile radius, asking, absorbing as fast and much as possible. I am tap dancing as fast as I can, I promise. With all of my outings, I have since learned he does this to everyone. Literally at least a half a dozen people in different areas has told me the same. He has one pay upfront, he brings out the smallest equipment, pockets the rest.
Now I know. You are totally right. Thank you for your help. I purchased some Poly Filter after I responded to you. I indeed remembered what a mechanical filter was, please forgive my panicked responses. I am making more work for you. I understand your explanation, my skimmer is too small for this tank. Thanks so much. I got it.
I have 6 Yellow Tail Damsels, 1 Raccoon Butterfly, 1 Pearlscale Butterfly, 1 Naso Tang, 1 Majestic Angel, 1 Coral Beauty, 1 Bi-Color Dwarf Angel, 1 Banggai Cardinal, crabs, snails, 3 urchins.
That's it. My sump dimensions where the skimmer is:
14" deep (from back wall to front), 12" wide (side to side), 35" tall, headroom.
My Butterflies and Naso are the ones skipping around the tank, twitching of sorts. Would a larger skimmer add more dissolved oxygen to the tank, helping this behavior?
<As far as the oxygen goes, yes, you would be processing more gallons per hour. As for the twitching, not a good sign, is possible the mentioned fish may have a parasitical disease and would be a good idea for your local man to come have a look and soon. Do any of the "twitching" fish have very small white spots on them? Would be comparable to grains of salt. Do read/learn here about this.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
Another question I have is what type of diet are these fish on, what are you feeding them? A healthy diet can go a long way in disease prevention. As for the nitrate level, your tank photo isn't indicative of a tank with the high nitrate levels that you report from the 5 in 1 strip results. I'll be very interested in your Salifert nitrate reading. On to the skimmer. Since you are already familiar with the ASM's operation, I suggest you get the ASM G4, will not be another learning curve thrown at you. May want to order this item from Marine Depot, located in Garden Grove, California, not very far from you and Bob Fenner for that matter. Look here.
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~category~ASM_G_4_Protein_Skimmer_w__S
edra_5000_Pump_Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies_Protein_Skimmers_In_Sump_Skimmers
_Venturi_Over_250_Gallons~vendor~All_Seas_Marine_(ASM)~SearchStr~~action~vie
w~idProduct~AG1191~idCategory~FIPSISVSOT.html
As to your present skimmer, and looking at the photo, you have a good accumulation of skimmate slime on the top neck of the main body. Any slime like this needs to be removed on a minimum weekly basis along with cleaning the collection cup/riser tube of same. Allowing this to build up greatly reduces the skimmer's efficiency.>
Peace be to you, again my apologies for all.
<Not a problem. James (Salty Dog)>
Dee.

Re: High nitrate's effects on Nasos skin? Naso Tang/Health 3/28/09
G'Day to you, thank you for your input/help.
<You're welcome.>
I purchased the ASM G3 yesterday, and installed it. Thanks for doing some homework on where to purchase. The better sized G4 for my system, will not fit in my sump.
<With a moderate fish load, the G3 should be fine.>
No, none of the twitching fish have any white spots on them. No Ich signs. I lost a damsel and my Pearlscale Butterfly last night. Before succumbing, he had a fixed gaze in his eyes. His color had turned to brown in some areas, mainly his face.
<The Pearlscale Butterflyfish are hardy as far as Butterflyfish go, but still not an easy fish to keep. My Naso and Majestic have the same look in their eyes, but Majestic is swimming/eating/looking fine, Naso is still blotchy and twitching. Could this be Chloramine poisoning from the tap?
<Depends on the level of the Chloramine. Butterflyfish demand pristine water quality and if your nitrates were indeed 200ppm+, then this will have a negative effect on the fish.>
I have adjusted the 4 power heads in each top corner downward and outward a bit for more oxygen in the water, they were 90% upwards, producing more surface aeration. Now it is about 20% surface aeration.
<Doing what you did just decreased the oxygen saturation, the surface needs to be agitated to allow gas/air exchange.>
I am testing with my Salifert N03 kit today, will shoot you the results later.
<Good.>
The only shop around here who carries it won't get it in until this afternoon, so I'll be driving 50 miles to get this test kit. I wanted to write you back ASAP to try and prevent more fish losses. Chlorine? If I add in some NovAqua to eliminate chlorine/ammonia, won't that make the skimmer go overboard?
<Yes, will likely have to be shut off.>
What can I safely add to eliminate the chloramines then?
<Aerating your top off water for 24 hours will eliminate the Chloramine. Many folks just keep a Rubbermaid tub with
aerated fresh water for top offs. Another route to go is by using an RO water purification system.>
Ammonia readings are zero, nitrite is at zero also. What, the do you think is poisoning them?
<Don't know, but water quality should be your first goal now. Could be that the Butterflyfish was caught by cyanide and this eventually kills the fish. Hard to believe you lost a damsel, they are almost bullet proof. Have you had him long?>
The 5 in 1 test strip still reads the nitrate at 50, that is a stressor. So it is either the Chloramine or the nitrate killing them?
<How did you arrive at having Chloramine present in your water, did you test?>
So many of these products are discussed here in other sections, I have seen/read dozens. Which of them do you prefer to
eliminate the chloramines?
<Aeration, doesn't make sense to add a product and then have no protein skimming.>
I feed them New Life Spectrum pellets, soft Spirulina pellets, Nori sheets soaked in Selcon & Boyd's Vita Chem alternately, frozen P.E. Mysis, Marine Cuisine, krill, squid, H2O Life Formula 1, all also soaked in the above mentioned vitamins. I mix up the choices 2x a day.
<Sounds good. Were all fish eating the New Life Pellets? It is a very nutritious food, use it myself.>
Now you really have my attention with your observance of my tank photo. I am actually encouraged by your feedback. What does a high nitrate laden tank look like compared to mine? How can you tell just by looking at my tank photo?
<What I expected to see was some Cyanobacteria growth and nuisance algae. Your tank looks reasonably clean of such.>
I see the goop in the neck of my old G1 skimmer now that you point that out, I'll be sure and keep the new one clean, along with the riser tube.
<Yes, a cleaning of at least once weekly.>
Excellent support here, I'll send results soon
Thanks so much.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>

Re: High nitrate's effects on Nasos skin? Naso Tang/Health 3/30/09
Hello James, (Salty Dog),
<Hello Dee, sorry for the delay, been busy this weekend.>
I have performed the Salifert test for N03, it is reading the bright magenta color at 100.
<Ouch.>
Thank you for this specific test recommendation, I will continue using all of their test kits for each element. I moved all 4 of the power heads back up towards the surface, as you suggested. I hooked the small skimmer back up to help
move out the build up until this new one begins skimming green stuff.
<You're thinking.>
I cleaned out the old one really good before using. I am now running both skimmers in sump. I now have 3 spots of Cyano on the rocks, and 4 small patches of bright green algae on the glass now.
<During the next water change, siphon the Cyano off, do not brush off, will just be spreading it.>
More skimming, continued water changes, better water circulation, those algaes should clear up soon?
<Should.>
I will be purchasing a 60 gallon RO unit Tuesday for my water changes. I've actually had my Pearlscale Butterfly and damsels for 2 years now, always perfect health, they were my first fish. So no possibility of cyanide for him in this case.
<Nope.>
My damsel did not die after all. He is blotchy like the rest of them, fins fraying, he was just lying on the sand in shock, he is
up and around now. I'm doing a 10% water change in moments. No, I did not test for chloramines, I was assuming, since my nitrites and ammonia are at zero, besides the nitrate, I figured that would be the only other toxic present.
<Likely.>
But now I see that it is not the high concentration of nitrate that is weakening them, it is the stress of living in the toxic levels of nitrate.
<Yes, is not good.>
You convinced me, no chemicals. Good, days-long aeration is best, thanks so much. The Majestic, Coral Beauty, Bi-Color, Pearlscale and Raccoon all love NLS pellets, but my Naso may pick them up every now and then. She is a Nori and P.E. Mysis fan instead.
<OK.>
Thank you for your patience. What say you to 2 skimmers running to skim as much as possible until the bigger one takes off and another water change?
<Yes, run both skimmers and I'd do 10% changes every week until the nitrate level gets down around 20ppm>
The Raccoon is darting all over, but the Majestic, Naso, 2 pygmies are swimming fine, just blotchy skin.
<Question for you...When doing water changes do you use a gravel cleaner type siphon? If not, do get one. It will allow you to churn the substrate and suck out plenty of nastys. If this has never been done, you likely have a small hydrogen sulphide factory in the substrate, another negative for your fish. You won't believe the color of the water in your dump bucket when you're doing this. Obviously you won't be able to vacuum the entire substrate in one water change so it is best to start at one end then identify where you stopped. On the next water change, continue and move on. It is also a good idea to do this with every future water change with your type of system.>
Waiting for your feedback, and thankful for your time.
<Welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Dee.

Re: High nitrate's effects on Nasos skin? Naso Tang/Health/Now Treating Cloudy Eyes 3/30/09
Hello James, thanks dearly for your attention.
<Welcome.><<And Dee, James has asked me to chime in as well. BobF>>
Yes, I do use a siphon at the end of my hose for water changes, and always do a 2 ft. long area of top sand siphoning. Salty Dog, I have been reading the FAQ's on cloudy eye all morning. My Naso now has it, the Raccoon Butterfly still does, as well. My 10 gal QT will not hold my Naso, nor can I catch the Raccoon for QT without stressing him and the others out even more.
<<It may well be best to try and discern the net/root cause of the problem in the main tank... and leave your fishes there>>
And the Bi-Color pygmy looks to be in the beginning stages of it. Just this time, can I medicate the tank with Maracyn 2? Removing all carbon/Chemi-Pure?
<<RMF would not use an antibiotic here. The real problem is little doubt environmental... I would add some pads of PolyFilter to your carbon use>>
The original skimmer is doing a great job of skimming lots of dark green like it used to. The new one is still filled with just clear water. I have read Bob's instructions on how to make a big QT using a Rubbermaid, aeration and a heater, but even if I were to catch the Raccoon, Bi-Color and Naso to treat for cloudy eye, my Banggai, Majestic Angel and Coral Beauty may come down with the same, so under these circumstances, do you recommend I treat the entire tank for cloudy eye?
<I'll hook up with Bob since disease treatment is not my forte. I will see what he recommends for treating a large tank.>
All of this Chemi-Pure, water changes (used store bought drinking water for the last one, no time to let tap sit), is not helping these nitrates get past this reading. I won't bother you with this much longer, I just need your input on these 2 things, the cloudy eye treatment, and reducing nitrates faster.
<I went through the nitrate problem with you already. Outside of what you are doing, there isn't a way to speed it up outside of costly massive (50%) water changes which you likely do not have the facilities to do anyway. Remember, it didn't happen overnight and it's not going to go away overnight.>
You have been a real coach, thank you.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Dee.
<<Dee, you must need address the water quality... including the massive water change possibility James alludes to. RMF>>

Re: High nitrate's effects on Nasos skin? Naso Tang/Health/And Now Cloudy Eye Treatment 3/30/09
Greetings James (Salty Dog).
<Hello Dee.>
I have an idea I want to run by you. What do you think about me doing a 150 gallon water change? These 30 gallon ones don't seem to be working.

Changing out half seems drastic and refreshing for them. This is all I can think of now to do to get these nitrates and stress down quickly. Will that be too diluted? Take out too much at once?
<You must be sure the pH, temperature, and salinity are the same as the display tank. I don't understand what you mean by "diluted".>
Even if it stressful, I think they'd get over that easier than living in these high nitrates.
<Will not be stressful if done correctly as above.>
One of the damsels is getting a large red infection on his forehead. The environment is really bad. I plugged up a larger pump for one of the return hoses 2 weeks ago. When I did, tons of uneaten food/poo shot right back into the tank from 3-4 weeks of an non operating return pump.
<Seems like you are always encountering additional problems. In a tank your size, you should be looking at a total flow rate of at least 3000gph, this will keep waste stirred up and find it's way to the mechanical filter. What is your total flow rate including return pump and powerheads?>
Anthony at WetWeb told someone that nothing good happens fast in an aquarium. I agree in this case.
<In full agreement with Antoine.>
I just can't fix this fast enough. It took 3 hours for all of it to clear up. The damage was done by then. That, plus my constant overfeeding is when all of this nitrate/toxin issue began. So, half a water change, 150 gallons, what do you think to help lower these nitrates now?
<If you have the facilities to do this, yes, most definitely. Where did all the uneaten food/poo end up that was stirred up, removed from the tank I hope.>
My Salifert test for N03 today is still reading at 100. Am at a loss on the next action here. Thank you dearly for your time and attention.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Dee.
Re: Naso Tang/Health/And Now Cloudy Eye Treatment 3/31/09
Hello again, this will indeed be my last message.
<OK>
I have learned much from you. Thank you for your compassion and patience.
<You're welcome.>
Yes, I am encountering new problems, these issues have a domino effect. Once that one over there hit, it affected that one next to it, and so on. Yes, you are correct again, you absolutely did suggest a half water change, my apologies again. I will buy another 30 gallon can, and do it all at once, in one session. What I meant by diluted was the level of nitrates in the water, not the salinity or anything like that.
<Yes, you will be lowering nitrates by way of dilution, but also keep in mind you have to address the source of excess nutrients/waste. This may help you here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm >
But thanks for clarifying.. All of that uneaten food/poo went down the overflow, stayed right in the system. I thought the skimmer would get most of it, didn't know any better, nor think anything about it until now.
<Yes, waste needs to be out of the system, not out of sight.>
Thank you much for the nematodes response. Bob said all there was to say on it, certainly. I currently have 2300 gph of flow rate in the tank, will upgrade to more powerful pumps first thing in the morning to reach at least 3000 gph, excellent suggestion, you're a real gem.
Thanks for helping me build my wings on the way down.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Dee.

Naso Tang: System\Health\Shipping Stress. 3/14/2009
<Hi Paul>
I have a 125 (6' long) all fish.
I have some live rock (1) blue tang, (1) clown, (1) damsel, (1) mandarin,((1) yellow tang, (3) emerald crabs, (3) cleaner shrimp, several snails, (2) sally crabs, and several hermit crabs.
<Pretty closed to maxed out as far as stocking is concerned>
All the water parameters are exactly where they should be.
<Actual readings would be helpful.>
The tank has been set up for 6 months and have not had one problem with it.
I started out with a 30 a couple of years ago and learned from there.
<OK>
Three weeks ago I purchased a (Naso) Tang (west indies?) from Saltwaterfish.com.
<What kind? I am going to assume Naso lituratus Totally inappropriate for a tank this size and with this level of stocking.>
When it got here it was very lethargic and couldn't seem to get off of its side. It carried on approximately two days this way and then started swimming upright.
<How big was the fish - Fish under four inches rarely adapt to captivity.
Also, it is imperative to get them eating immediately.>
During this time it didn't eat and I let it go for three more days and it went back over on its side and never recovered. I subsequently got my credit for the fish and decided to use it to order a larger Hawaiian Naso Tang. (after the acclimation period)
<Any Quarantine?>
I put it in the tank and it just laid on its side. After several hours it righted itself and seemed to be swimming OK.
<Shipping\environmental stress, starvation.>
It has yet to eat and this morning it is listing to one side like the other one did. I have tried everything I can think of, "entice", krill, algae, flake food, etc. but it will not eat. The other fish in the tank are loving the different variety of things I have offered.
<You may want to try some live Brine Shrimp>
Am I missing something? I hate to lose the guy he is very pretty but am at my wits end. I contacted a local fish store about some help but he was as clueless as me on what to do.
<There is much to learn here. Firstly, Nasos get BIG, needing hundreds of gallons. Being in conditions too small will stress them to death.>
If you can give me some advice I would be most appreciative.
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/naso.htm and here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/naso_lituratus.htm >
Thanks,
<My Pleasure>
Paul
<Mike>
Naso Tang: Acclimation\Quarantine\Health\Need More Information 3/20/2009
Hi all!
<Well hello there!>
I have Naso Tang that has been in quarantine for 8 weeks (he had a bout of Amyloodinium {microscopic verification}).
<Kudos to you for quarantining/verifying a disease before treatment!>
After battling that I introduced him to my display. My quarantine tanks are usually pH~7.8 (tap water almost always consistent. Just easier and if I run into emergencies like I said almost always pH 7.8). When I'm ready to transfer fish to display I increase the pH in quarantine to 8.2 over 10 days.
<OK so far.>
Except, with this Naso. I just put him in the DT completely forgetting to slowly increase the pH of quarantine (only realizing after his release).
Tried to catch it but forget it in 200g full of LR.
<Hehehe, I know what you mean.>
A week later Naso was lethargic, not eating introduced foods but still scavenged LR algae. Couple days after was very lethargic (I figure all a result of no acclimation). The same night after noticing his inactivity I
saw a tiny hermit clinging to his pectoral fin and dining (my Naso is 7 inches). The Naso was trying to dump the hermit but couldn't. I grabbed a long stick hitting the crab while the Naso was trying to swim away (either from me or the crab).
<I'm thinking the long stick...>
Finally the hermit dropped. The hermit had a good dinner. So now the Naso has exposed white tissue, and I've since removed the hermit.
<Ouch!>
It's been 2 days since this incident and Naso just lays on his side and hides all day (I would to). So to my question. Do try to grab the Naso and put him back in quarantine? OR do I leave him as he seems already very stressed (no one else in the DT appears to bother him). I'm leaning towards the later.
<Agreed - leave him in place and observe.>
And if I leave him, is there any point I should catch him and put him quarantine?
<Signs of infection etc.>
I really don't' want to lose this guy, he's the show, Nasos are my favourite! My anxiety is through the roof.
Thanks a bunch
<Mike>
Re: Naso Tang: Acclimation\Quarantine\Health\Need More Information 3/20/2009
No visible signs of infection but this morning dead.
<Sorry to hear that.>
I suspect bacterial infection or some physiologic anomaly precipitated by lack of acclimation all magnified by injury and trauma.

I'll postmortem tonight but I don't think I'll see anything obvious.
<Still, not finding anything obvious still rules out environmental or pathogenic.>
Looks like only one solution; get over it with a weekend on the hills with my board and deep powder.
<Now there is an idea.>
I forgot I'm in Toronto. Sucks to be me...lesson learned...
<Do let me know if you find anything.>
<Mike>

Naso Tang (Second attempt) HELP!! Hlth, temp./sys. 3/8/09 Hi Guys, <Joey> In a bit of a panic and I'm hoping and praying you guys can help. <Will try> 150 US GAL Reef tank(with 50 GAL sump) , inhabitants are as follows: 1 x yellow tang approx 4 inches doing very well, nice and thick eating well good coloring and shape. 1 x powder brown tang doing amazingly. Beautiful specimen, eats well with no abrasions and is just my pride and joy. 1 x one spot fox face rabbit fish. Again doing very well and about 4 to possibly 5 inches in length although not nearly as "massive" as the tangs 4 x blue green Chromis. All doing well and between 1 and 1.5 inches 2 x ocellaris clowns hosted in the same Sebae again doing very well (1 = 2.5 inches , 1 = 3 .5 inches both very hearty) 1 x blue devil damsel doing well 2 inches 1x lemon (or yellow damsel) doing well but very very small I would say about 1 inch long Various corals of all types, leathers, SPS's , LPS, Softs, etc. About 200 LBS of Live Rock (lots of rock very large structure in the middle of the tank 5 inches or aragonite mixed with crushed coral bed 50 gallon sump with 1/3 as fuge . about 5 inch sand bed down there and about 30 pounds of live rock Above display I have an algae scrubber that is in the process of being established Lighting is : 2x 250W 14000K MH , 2 x 54 Watt T-5 FLO 420 NM , 2 x 54 Watt T-5 FLO 460NM, 9 white 1 w lunars and 9 blue 1 watt lunars. Water parameters are all very good . There is one item that I'm not confident on however which Is water temperature. I have been running my tank at about 83 degrees at night and it peaks at just under 86 (85.8 - 85.9) during the day. <I'd lower this, allow it to be a big lower... a good five degrees F. or so> There seems to be 2 schools of thought on this. The mid to upper 70's crew and the "keep it as NSW temps of where the fish came from" crew. Because these are reef animals mostly from the south pacific or Indonesia I thought it would make sense to run it at this temperature. <Ahh, no... see WWM re... I've written and debated extensively re this topic... much better in almost all cases for temperature to be lower... Don't have the time to hash over again here. Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/heatrat.htm and the linked files above> At any rate here is my issue and why I'm so concerned, well call it scared as honestly that's what I am right now. A while back I introduced a very healthy looking Blonde Naso into my tank (no QT and trust me I understand all the reasoning behind doing the Qt I just haven't had an opportunity to set one up yet although I definitely need one and it WILL get done believe me!) The fish was perfect in the store and eating well. I brought him home and initially he was okay (for the first few minutes) but when I tried to feed he did not show interest. Then he began to show "black" coloring. And when I say black I mean it was frightening at first since I had never seen a fish turn completely black like that. Almost like he had donned a ninja outfit. No heavy breathing or other behavior that would lead me to believe he was stressed so I thought maybe those are just his night colors? <Yes.... can be... and patchiness, lighter blotches... But in a word: stress... from?> I did some searching and didn't really find anything leading me to believe that NASO's have "night" colors <Oh, indeed they do. Large Naso lituratus (though I don't condone/suggest this) are collected for ornamental use at night time... sitting/laying on the bottom... Have seen many times> so I began to really be concerned. For the next few days I continued to try without success to get him to eat vigorously. He would eat the occasional passer by seaweed the others would let slip but nothing more than that. I thought maybe he was getting bullied but didn't really see anything to support that. <Often subtle...> Then about the 3rd or 4th day he began to get a white cotton looking crust around his lips. <Oh, might have been damaged in collection, holding shipping... not uncommon> It would almost drift in and out of his mouth occasionally when he breathed. Almost as if he had a fake mustache that wasn't quite staying on? This went on for another 2 days and finally he passed on "I assume" because he never came out of the rocks structure. <Ah no... the question might be... "what caused this fish to go into the rock structure?"> My Cleaners all disappeared for a day or so and all reemerged later on at the same time. It was about a week when I finally gave up all hope that she was alive. I did some research and found that perhaps the stress of the move caused her to get a fungal infection that ended up leading to her demise. I did some asking around at the LFS and it turns out that she had just been brought in that same day when I bought her. A mistake I will NEVER make again. I should have asked but saw her eating which gave me a false sense of security. <You're learning> This time I put a slightly bigger and much thicker specimen in to my tank. Same 2 hour acclimation process. Very healthy and eating although he had been at the LFS for about a week. Eating well as well. I put her in last night and immediately began to see the same type of behavior as the last including the "Black" coloring. I am very very scared now that she will go the same way the other one did and I just can't figure it out. Why the Naso? <Mmm, one important factor that you've mentioned... temperature... and its effect on metabolism AND dissolved oxygen... need to lower...> I have bought all my fish from the same place and all are doing amazingly well? Not to mention the powder browns are supposed to be more difficult to care for than the Nasos ? <... needs more DO> Or at least that's my understanding. BtW I have tried soaking the food in garlic and also tried Zoecon with Zoë« mixture. (have tried brine, pellet, flakes, and seaweed of green, purple, brown and red varieties although I understand they have a preference for the brown) This time no fungus looking white stuff around the mouth (YET!) but I have noticed whitish markings on her skin . She had those from the store and they kind of look like just character marking... just abrasions perhaps. But I'm not sure. I really don't want to lose her . I would be very grateful for any help you can provide. Thank you very much for your time. Very Gratefully, I tried to introduce Joey Freyre <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Lipstick tang, hlth. related to shipping -- 03/03/09 HELP!!!I purchased a lipstick tang and received him FedEx last Friday. After acclimating him to the tank I put him in and he fell to the bottom on his side. He hasn't started eating and lays around most of the day. He has now developed black spots on his head and is very lethargic. I took him from the main tank (125 gal). Should I be concerned and return him or ??? I have read some of the answers on the site but haven't found anything on the black spots. Paul Dodson <Mmm, given the paucity of data offered... and having handled thousands of Naso lituratus on the collecting, shipping, receiving side... I'd leave this fish in the larger system... It is very likely "just" suffering from being moved... will rally or not... but most likely so in the largest, best-circulated circumstance available. Bob Fenner>
Re: lipstick tang -- 03/03/09 Thanks, will try and hope he comes out of it. It doesn't want to eat so I guess it's another learning process for me. <Please see WWM re... Nasos can take time, be mal-affected by env. factors in learning to/accepting novel foods. Cheers, BobF>

Naso Tang Issue, Cu 2/4/09 Hi, <Hello> I have had this blond Naso Tang for about three weeks. He is currently in quarantine getting copper and Prazi pro treatments. <For what?> As you can see from the picture, he is splotchy. At times, when his skin looks dark grey, he looks very splotchy. <Yes> When his skin is light grey, it doesn't look so bad. He is not the most aggressive eater but does eat. He has not changed his behavior and mostly likes to hide but he will swim around every 15 minutes if there is no sudden movement outside the tank. Is there anything else I can do about the spots? Thanks. Mike <Stop the copper exposure... it's killing this fish. Acanthurids don't "like" cupric ions... These markings, behavior are evidence of poisoning. Bob Fenner>

Re: worm, Naso QT, Protozoan fecal presence 2/1/09 Thanks for the compliments! Coincidentally, I have a Naso tang in quarantine (for the past 4 weeks) that stopped eating today. I noticed white hard fecal matter and decided to look at that under a microscope. Well I saw (pics attached) of something, possibly parasitic. Could you help identify? <Mmm, other than appears Protistan/Protozoan, no... but could be a commensal...> The Naso appears to be behaving otherwise normally. The various pics are all pics of the same thing. Thanks again!

Ciliates at 400 X

Re: worm 2/1/09 I'm a bit hesitant to put him in the DT b/c he did have Amyloodinium (verified microscopically). <Mmm... okay> Treated with Chloroquine diphosphate for 10 days. He's been doing well 4th day into treatment and been doing well for the last 8 day post treatment (so he's been doing well for 12 days) up until yesterday. Is it too soon to put him into DT? thanks <Given this further data/input, it is too soon. BobF>

Naso Tang needs your help !! -- 01/22/09 WWM Crew, <Kirk> I have had this Naso Tang for 2wks and notice these splotches on his side. <Stress coloration...> My two main questions are: 1. What is it?? 2. Is this something to be concerned with? <Something too challenging... too small a system, social incompatibility are the most common... And yes> I have blue face angel and a Kole eye tang that are doing well (added the same time as the Naso tang), only the Naso tang is showing signs on this splotches. The Naso tang is picking algae off the rock and sides of the tank. Eyes are clear and seems alert. <Good signs> I am feeding Arcti-Pods, Rod's Food (herbivore blend) and new life pellets. <Good foods...> It also is eating Red Algae sheets that I put on an algae clip (FWIW, all fish are eating from the algae clip). <Good> I will give you the perfunctory water parameters: ammonia, nitrites, nitrates all ZERO Mg is 1200 PO4 is ZERO Ca 425 pH 8.3 salinity 1.024 temp 77 Fish are housed in an established (2yrs this May 2009) 375 gallon tank. <Mmm, good sized system...> My main goal is to identify what the splotches are and to determine if ANY action or treatment is needed on my part. To see pics of the Tang, view my photos here: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/7329275@N05/3217403650/> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7329275@N05/3217403650/ <http://www.flickr.com/photos/7329275@N05/3216548959/> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7329275@N05/3216548959/ <http://www.flickr.com/photos/7329275@N05/3216385885/> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7329275@N05/3216385885/ thanks Kirk <Mmm... well... it could be that this specimen was just roughly handled (happens) on/during collection, processing from the wild (many Naso lituratus are "picked up" on the bottom at night while sleeping... have "hand prints" on them...) or that it is simply adjusting to its new surroundings... I would wait on doing anything overt here (not move or "treat" it, the system)... and this Naso will likely clear up in a few weeks. Bob Fenner>

Re: Naso Tang needs your help !! Bob, <Kirk> So whatever the stress coloration the Naso has, is NOT contagious and will NOT be spread to other fish in the tank, correct? <That is correct... with a very high degree of confidence> This is my main concern. Thanks Kirk <Welcome my friend. BobF>

Re: Naso Tang needs your help !! 1/27/2009 Bob, <Kirk> Today, I spoke to the online vendor where I purchased the Naso tang. They viewed the photo and said the splotches were caused by a bacterial infection and could easily be treated with Maracyn II. <...> Do you agree with this diagnosis ?? <No> Should I be worried about the health of this tang? Thanks Kirk <Worried? No... worrying won't change the future... Concerned? Sure... particularly if this translates to further investigation, consideration and action (if necessary) on your part. IF you'll take the time to read re infectious marine fish disease (on WWM), you'll/you'd find that such occasions are not generally "treatable" per se... and the genus Naso in particular can't be easily moved/sequestered in small volumes. Please... read, don't write unless you have something novel to report or inquire re. B>

Naso Tang 007, hlth. 10/14/08 Dear Crew, I First off, thank you for a wonderful web-site. I just happen upon it a few weeks ago and thoroughly enjoying reading all the vast amount of information. It's very commendable of you to offer such a tremendous service. I do own a copy of CMA. Great book Dr. Fenner! <Mmm, no doctorate, just Bob, please> I'm somewhat of a newbie in that I left the hobby several years ago as time constraints (i.e. 3 children) along with moving to new residence kept me from re-establishing my tank. Anyhow, my reason for writing today is that I am starting up my 300 gal. FOWLR and have made my first fish purchase. One of the fish being a 6" Blonde Naso Tang. This fish was offered at discount through the retailer (F&S) you mention on your web-site frequently. (I wonder if it had been in their tank for long period of time, thus the reason for the discounted price?) <Possibly> I received the fish on Weds. afternoon and by Sat. morning he developed what appears to me to be Lateral Line Disease. I am attaching a picture for your review. The Naso was placed in quarantine tank 30 gal.(4' x 1' x 1' ) upon receipt on Weds. 10/08. The water in the quarantine tank is being treated each day with Kordon's Prevent Ich per their instructions. <Mmm, won't "treat" HLLE... in fact the ingredients here, the further stress... will drive all the other direction> Water parameters are as follows: spg 1.023, <Mmm, low, but likely better here for gas exchange purposes> ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates <5, temp. 76, ph 8.2. He is currently not accepting food i.e. Mysis shrimp, krill dip in vita-Chem, red algae w/garlic sheets, flakes, etc. <Stop! I would move this fish (back) into the 300 gallon setting... The etiology/causative mechanism of the syndrome shown won't "spread" as a consequence to other livestock... and otherwise the chance of this fish resolving is very small> He is not actively swimming around tank, occasional stroll and then sits on bottom. <More bad behavior> Today, Monday, he has started gilling. I have been using a power head position right at the water-line to agitate the surface so that there's plenty of air mixing with the water. <Mmm, not for this species... Move it> Could you please confirm my diagnoses and provide any other information on treatment as well as suggestions on what else can be done to save him. I read all that I could find own your web-site with respect HIHLL and seems to me that the general consensus for its cause is related to nutrition and water quality. <Yes, this is so> With that being the case, what could have caused this condition in such a short period of time (3 1/2 days) given the water parameters? <Stress period... as you speculate, just how long has this fish been kept, moved about in sub-par conditions?> Your response most appreciated. <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Emailing: Naso Tag 007... reading... Crypt 10/14/08 Thank you Bob for your response. <Welcome Scott> Sorry about calling you Dr. but, a man of with your wealth of knowledge and experience certainly qualifies you to be one. Just wanted to clarify a few things. First off, the Tang did perish yesterday afternoon ( I wish I had received your reply sooner as I would have acted on your advise to move him). Secondly, I was following the personal recommendation of one Kordon's scientist/marine biologist who said I should quarantine all tangs for about six weeks <Mmm, please see at least WWM re my opinions here and rationale for same... we differ> and treat the quarantine tank initially with Kordon's organic Prevent Ich product <... and my input re this product. NOT reliable> for seven days and stop if no Ich presents. He stated that Tangs were notorious for carrying Ich <This is so> and by using this product it would likely eradicate any internal/external parasites( I assumed he wasn't giving me a sales pitch!). <Mostly> The HIHLL problem did not present until after nearly two days of quarantining. <Likely the Kordon product was more cause here...> I did not realize that the product in question would create additional stress as there is no information to contrary on Kordon's Prevent Ich label/ web-site. Thirdly, I did not do a freshwater dip as your web-site seemed to indicate that this method should not be utilized for Tangs unless parasites were observed on the fish prior to placing it in the quarantine tank. Would this have made a difference for this fish? <Perhaps... but... only can guess> So should I be employing a different strategy for my quarantining fish? <... you should... read> This Kordon product is somewhat new and does not require water changes during treatment (tremendous benefit). <... again, take a look on the BBs... others input... Kordon is a good co., with many fine products... this is not one of them> All other fish, yellow tang, blue hippo, and one spot fox face seem to be doing fine during this treatment. Thank you again for your time. Scott
<BobF>

Naso Problems!!!!! 9/19/08 I have just received a Naso Tang in yesterday and noticed after I had placed him in the QT this fungus "I am guessing" on the side of the fish. <Mmm, no, not really> What do you think it is and what would be the best course of action. Should I do a freshwater dip with Methylene Blue, Formalin-3, or ParaGuard. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. Brad <This is almost assuredly "shipping/collecting damage"... As this specimen looks to be in good shape otherwise, I'd leave it as is to heal... can be quite quick to do so... a few weeks. Bob Fenner>

Naso Tang swimming strange 6/23/08 I have a Naso Tang (6 inches) that has been in the tank about 3 months. In the tank with him are a Regal Blue Tang (5 inches), Yellow Tang (3.5 inches), Yellow tail Coris (4 inches), Coral Beauty (3 inches) 2 3.5 inch Ocellaris clowns and a lawnmower blenny. The Regal did have cloudy eye about 2 weeks ago and I treated it with Focus and Metronidazole in the food. <... what was the cause?> The cloudy eye are gone and he has stopped scratching on the live rock in the last day or two. The tank parameters are: 150 Gallon 200+lbs live rock 1.025 specific gravity 0 NO 2 5 NO 3 11 Alkalinity 8.2-8.4 Ph 0-.02 PO4 77-78.5 temp 400-450 Ca 1250 Magnesium <These all look good> The Naso shows no outward signs of stress yet he will swim normally and then jerk almost in a nervous twitch or as if he had hic ups. <Natural behavior to extents> He does not eat frozen food but eats dried seaweed and pellets with no reservations. <Ah, good. No worries> After reading the FAQs I am going to add a airstone for good O2 in the water. <Can do little possible harm, but much good> I did just add a sulfur denitrator about 4 weeks ago and that has brought the Nitrates down from 25. They have been less than 10 the last 2 weeks and this behavior started about 2 days ago. Water changes are about 30 gallons every 2 weeks. All top off is done with RO water. <Mmm, I would not be overly concerned with the behaviors stated. Perhaps some settling in with the S2 is occurring. Bob Fenner>

Re: Naso Tang swimming strange 6/26/08 The cloudy eye I believe was caused by my food. <?> I was thawing 1 weeks worth of San Francisco Bay brand frozen food (plankton, Emerald Isle, Mysis Shrimp) and mixing it with vitamins and garlic extract and leaving in the refrigerator. I found out you should only do that for up to 48 hours. So, my suspect is that the food had started to go bad and created the cloudy eye. I also think that is why the Naso stopped eating the frozen and went to eating the pellets and seaweed. <Mmmm> The Naso appears to have stopped or reduced the jerky motions. It does have some white discoloration on the edge of the upper part of one of his gills. It does not appear to be getting larger or smaller. He is eating fine so I suspect it is nothing to worry about. Thanks for your reply. <Welcome... you have read the sections on WWM re this genus, species? http://wetwebmedia.com/fishindex3.htm scroll down. Bob Fenner>

Methylene Blue with Erythromycin? Naso lituratus hlth., beh. 6/11/08 Hello Crew! <Charlie> I have a somewhat urgent need for a definitive answer, I have searched somewhat here and have not as of yet found my answer. I do know that it is here, as I believe I have read it months ago. Yet, in my frantic search cannot for the life of me locate it on this vast wealth of information. So I come to you in hopes of finding it sooner. My thanks in advance for the help you offer. Now my question. I have a 6 in or so blond Naso tang. She has been housed in my 135 for approximately 15-16 months. <Will need more room than this> This fish is BTW my favorite and I love Anna very much. This past weekend I relocated the tank to another room. She was temporarily housed with 12 other fish in a 65 filled with water straight from the 135. Anna was in there for about 15 hours with a heater and a Koralia 4 for flow. All fish made it back to the DT and were treated very well during the move. Most including Anna were hand caught <Yikes...> as they feed from my hand daily, and never saw a net. All look and act normally upon intro back to the DT except Anna. She displayed the typical dark shading when stressed and didn't feed the following day Sunday) Nor did she ever really socialize. Last night, I found here laying still, slightly curved and dark grey along the bottom. <Tangs do lay on the bottom at night> She is very listless and just plain weak acting. Any current will pin her in place. I have moved her into the 10 QT with an air stone/heater and dosed erythromycin. I cannot see any evidence of anything wrong with this fish. She does have a sore on her side. But that was definitely caused by being stuck against a power head. Which was caused be her ailment. I don't have any idea what it may be. <My best, high-confidence guess is psychological stress... from being moved, kept in such a small volume... Will "get over it" in time... likely under a week. But DO move this fish into the larger quarters, now> However in a last ditch effort to save her, I administered the erythromycin. <These are miscible... no problem> Finally here's my question...LOL I want to know if dosing Methylene blue along side the erythromycin is OK? <Yes> Also would it if it is, be of any possible help/harm to her. Really I don't think she's going to make it, but I will try anything you suggest. Also I feel as though her problem is caused by some kind of trauma she may have suffered while my watchful eyes were not upon her. I thank you and so does Anna Charlie Bunch <Bob Fenner>

Naso Tang - Possible Ich? 04/05/2008 Hey guys, how's it going. <<Hello, Andrew today>> I was just going through your website and trying to figure out just what's going on with my Naso Tang. I have had it for about a month and a half, and am keeping it in a 55 gallon tank (I didn't do my research prior to the purchase, but figured that I might keep it until there are size issues). Anyways, the other day I came home, and my roommate pointed out that there were white spots on the side of it. Immediately I feared Ich, given the white spots and horror stories that I've heard. But then under further research it seems unlikely that it could be Ich. I have not introduced anything new to the tank in quite some time, and it's behaviour seems to be quite normal. It's breathing is regular, and feeding is normal as well. The white spots are about 10 or so in number, and could be compared to the size of an uncooked grain of rice. They are also definitely beneath the skin. I've read that this is actually a characteristic of the tang, however I do not feel fully convinced that I should pass on treatments. So if there is any information you can offer me, or anything you can tell me to be keeping an eye out for, it would be much appreciated. <<Sounds like Ich to me, treat with hyposalinity. More can be read here including the linked articles and FAQ's http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >> Thanks a lot, Anthony. <<Thanks for the questions, hope this helps. A Nixon>> <Mmm, much more likely embedded worms, possibly Microsporideans... Not really treatable nor too debilitating. But... this fish will likely perish in this too-small setting. RMF>
Re: Naso Tang - Possible Ich? 04/07/2008 They don't seem like the regular sort of spots that Ich produces. They're much bigger, and seem to come and go. Do you know anything about the Naso Tang having such spots on it? Is this a characteristic of the fish? And given that it has none of the other symptoms, and I haven't introduced any new livestock to the tank in quite some time, could Ich be eliminated as a possibility? Sorry if it seems like I am refuting your far more knowledgeable opinion, but I'm just looking to be convinced either way. Thanks again. <<It does sound like Ich to me as these are very prone to this parasite. Their body should be nice and smooth. Please do read more here. If you can provide a close up photograph of the spot(s), then that would great. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/naso.htm >> <<Thanks for the follow-up. A Nixon>>

Surgeonfishes: Tangs for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
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by Robert (Bob) Fenner

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