Tang with Ick Question 10/11/05 
<<Stan, some of my/other input. Cheers, BobF>>
Hello Crew: 
<Hi Stan, James here today>
I currently have a purple tang and a desjardini tang in my QT (20gal)
<<RMF would NOT mix two tang species in QT>>
which I plan on adding to my 150 gal reef system once they pass QT. They've been there for about a week and are both eating like little pigs and seem to be doing fine. I've been feeding them a variety of foods which includes Spectrum Thera-A Anti-Parasitic Formula, Julian Sprung's Seaveggies, Ocean Nutrition Marine Pellets Formula 2, Kent Marine Platinum Reef Herbivore Fish Food which are sometimes soaked in Vita Chem. 
However, in the last couple of days, I've noticed some white spots on my purple tangs body and fins. Can't really see if the Desjardini has these same spots or not because the spots are not as contrasting as on the purple tang. I assume it's ick, or the beginning of it. So I looked here and read some articles that hyposalinity and/or a cleaner shrimp might do the trick without medications. So I added a shrimp a few days ago and then this weekend started researching how to do the hyposalinity treatment. 
<<Not with the shrimp present. RMF>>
Instead of finding out how, I found more articles claiming that hyposalinity was a waste of time and wouldn't work long term. So I guess my question is, how would one go about treating ick long term in QT? Isn't that what a QT tank is for?
<<Not really what "quarantine is for"... a period to review, observe health, behavior, possibly treat there/then... but also for "rest". RMF>>
I know everyone has different opinions, but what do most people do? Medicate? If so with what? Any help would be very much appreciated. 
<Stan, if it were me, rather then stress the fish out with hyposalinity treatment, I would treat with copper. A copper test kit is a must along with daily testing to insure an effective and safe level is kept. Recommended dose to maintain is 0.015-0.020ppm.
<<Dude! Of what? Free copper/cupric ion... PLEASE understand that there is a difference in reading/s with chelated copper and their corresponding kits. RMF>>
I would treat for a minimum of 21 days @ 80 degree temperature. The ick cyst casings are unaffected by the copper so we have to wait till all hatch out where at this stage they can be effectively killed by the copper. The ich that is embedded in the skin of the fish also is pretty much unaffected by the copper. Only in the swimming stage, after hatching and when they have to find a host, is when they are most vulnerable to copper. James (Salty Dog)>

Tang with Ick Question ? - Follow-up 10/11/05
Thanks James (Salty Dog):
OK. So a treatment with copper it is. Any recommendations as to what copper brand / type to use? Isn't there chelated or non chelated ? 
<Yes, there are chelated/non chelated types. If it were me I'd go with Aquarium Systems Sea Cure Copper treatment along with their FasTest Copper Test Kit. Fortunately for me I've never had to treat a tank in 10+ years, but if the problem arose, the above would be my choice.>
<<... three weeks... with an unchelated copper... on tangs? I would NOT do this... I'd go with two weeks, and a chelated make/model with accompanying at least daily tests. RMF>>
And I assume that I need to move the cleaner shrimp to my main tank since he won't make it thru the copper treatments right ? 
<Stan, all inverts must be removed. Google our WWM site on copper treatment for more info. James (Salty Dog)> 

Re: Tang with Ick Question ? - Follow-up 10/13/05
Thanks for the quick replies James (Salty Dog), very much appreciated. 
<You're welcome>
But I'm a bit confused here and was hoping that you could maybe point me in the right direction. 
Just as a reminder, I've left the replies back and forth as a memory refresher. After talking on Monday, I went out to my local pet stores looking for copper but could not find any, believe it or not they were all out. So I ordered it mail order that night.
Well here's the confusing thing. On Tuesday, when I checked in on them and watched them for awhile to see how they were doing, etc. I noticed that my Desjardini tang was laying on its side and the cleaner shrimp was going to town on him. After taking a closer look, I saw that the purple tang no longer had white spots on him either (this is while the lights were on). Am I going nuts ? 
<<James... respond to the question/s! Not going nuts... the "spots" are reactions... do cycle on/off... RMF>>
Unfortunately, I noticed that my Desjardini tang had a two spots missing from the top/rear of his fin. I'm guessing Mr. purple is the reason. However, when I checked on them this morning (lights still off) the purple tang looks like it has
some type of spots on it (not white), and its body was a bit discolored. The Desjardini on the other hand, seems like the spots that were missing on its fins are filling in already.
So here is my dilemma. Do I treat the tangs with copper ? 
<Stan, this treatment must last at least 21 days to be effective and are you using a test kit to insure safe and effective doses?> 
Why do I see spots one day and not the next? Will treating them, if they don't have anything be a bad idea or more harmful then good ? 
<You have gazillions of cysts laying on the bottom waiting to hatch and find a buddy. Continued treatment is necessary to kill all the hatchings.> 
And do I keep pushing my luck in trying to keep two tangs in the same tank ? I'm sure the 20gal isn't ideal but I'm hoping that the extra space in the 150 will allow them to get along. 
<The 150 should be fine, you have to accept the fact there will be occasional aggression. Its recommended that no two alike tangs be kept together.> 
I know it's pushing it. Could go either way. They could get along, with the occasional "I'm boss" reminders, or they may destroy one another.
<<This is something you NEVER want to see.  If the two tangs are also close in size, you are probably pushing it too far with their compatibility, this is not what could be considered "conscientious". MH>>
Should I separate them in the QT tank ? Should I get rid of one of them and just go with one ? 
<If the aggression gets up to the next level, then I'd probably trade one in. James (Salty Dog)>
I know there's a lot of questions here, many of which are hard to answer, with no definite yes or no. But I'd really appreciate any input that you guys might have.
Thanks in advance 
<You're welcome. Do compatibility research in the future if you are considering buying two alike fish.> 

Ich and Powder Blue Tang
Hello Fishmasters!
Many thanks for all the great information, and excellent discussion forums.  I was hoping to get some personal help today if possible!
I have a 125 gallon aquarium with 100 pounds of LR and a few easy to keep corals.  I have a Blonde Naso Tang (5 inches), a powder blue tang, two clown fish, two green Chromis, and one coral beauty.  I have two Cascade 1200 canisters, a Aqua C Remora Pro Protein skimmer, and a 25 watt UV sterilizer.  Water parameters: ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, nitrate: undetectable (Salifert), Calcium 450, SG 1.025. pH and alkalinity also excellent.  I do a 12 Gallon water change every 10 days.
All of the fish looked healthy when I bought them and all of the ate well in the store.  I quarantined all the fish (two at a time) for an entire month before introduction and everyone looked great and was eating well.  (Can you tell that I have been reading your website?)
Two weeks after introducing the Powder Blue into the main tank, I noticed a several "grains of salt" on the body of the fish  (Needless to say...my heart sank).  It was still swimming actively and eating well which was good.  
<< Very common for these fish. >>
I moved it to the Q Tank, lowered the salinity to 1.020, maintained the temp at 80, and treated with formalin for 7 days.  I performed 12 Gallon water changes every other day.  I then ran carbon, and I watched the fish for another 7 days.  Everyone else in the main tank looked fine, and just before re-introduction of the powder blue...I noticed several more cysts.  I kept it in the Q tank, treated it with formalin again, and re-lowered the salinity to 1.020.  
I noticed three small "grains of salt" on the angel yesterday in the main tank and they are gone today.  All the rest of the fish in the main tank look perfect.  
The powder blue tang still looks great (eating/active), but I can not seem to kick this infection.  Is it time to try copper?  Do I need to empty my main tank and run it fallow?  Do I have some kind of sub-clinical infection in my main tank that should be treated or should I leave the main tank alone?
<< I'd either leave the tank alone, or better yet is to start adding garlic to their food.  I think you'll be very pleased. >>
My powder blue would appreciate any advice that you have!
Thanks!
Jason       
<<  Blundell  >>

Tang with ich, what do I do?
Dear Adam,
  I guess I had my hands in the tank one too many times ... Over the past week, I was making a lot of circulation changes -pretty much adding or removing a pump every alternate day. Today I installed the surface skimmer box to my remora pro. Six hours later my Kole tang is down with Ich!!!
<< Yep, sounds like too much stress. >>
  All my livestock was quarantined for 3-4 weeks. The tank was fallow for 10 weeks the last time I had ich -march 2003. Unfortunately I made the mistake of introducing the Kole tang last June with just 2 days in QT -he was very miserable in the QT I was ready to give up the hobby due to a hair algae problem that he solved. That decision is now haunting me....
<< We all have tough times in this hobby. >>
  I just set up the QT today with water from the display. Tomorrow I'll be tearing up my 80 lbs of live rock to catch my three fish. << I wouldn't do that.  I'd wait it out. >> I'm planning to have the orchid Dottyback and ocellaris clown in the 10G QT, and the Tang separately in a 50G tub with 15G of water. Alas my spare skimmer will be on the 10G. Since the tang is the only one with symptoms, I want to treat him separately from the other two. Does this make sense?
<< It makes sense, but I wouldn't remove the fish and treat them. >>
  After treatment, and a 8 week fallow period, I intend to introduce the clown and Pseudochromis back to the display. As for the tang, I've realized that a 72G isn't big enough for such an active animal... Would an abalone or some of the less toxic seaslugs keep the glass and live rock hair algae free? << Lots of snails. >> Or do you see a blenny in my future. Tangs are definitely out until I get a 6+ foot tank someday! << I really wouldn't remove the fish and go fallow.  If it were me I'd just leave everything alone.  I think you will cause more problems. Hermits and snails are the best for algae control, and I'd stick with them. >>
Thank You,
Narayan
<<  Blundell  >>

Ich Strikes Again, and It's Tangs as Targets Again (5/14/04)
Long time no talk (it's been a few years)... <Steve Allen helping out tonight while Bob and several crewmates are in Germany and the Red Sea area.>
I recently (two weeks ago) picked up a powder blue tang and a yellow tang for my 95 RR FOWLR tank, to go with my Majestic & Lemonpeel Angels (Majestic is biggest fish at 3.5"), both Tangs are smaller. <For now, but it's going to get crowded in there. I think these Tangs may not get along in the long run.>
No problems for the last two weeks until yesterday, the dreaded ich has appeared on my Powder Blue. <A notorious ich magnet and overall difficult fish to keep.> He had been in QT at the store for two weeks (copper added), I know I shoulda QT'd him myself, but now I've learned my lesson. :( (I feel like such a moron). <Just goes to show that you never can be sure.>
Anyway, I've been reading up on your site and on ReefCentral, you get a lot of conflicting info, especially for the powder blue. <What? Uncertainty? Conflicting opinion in the aquarium hobby? Goes with the territory unfortunately, just like in the medical field.>
My plan of action:
1) feed garlic soaked food (started last night), actually using "reef solution" <Unproven, but probably harmless.>
2) pull all live rock from the tank and place it in a secondary tank, replace with Large PVC pieces for cover
3) Use the Hyposalinity method (My new refractometer should be here tomorrow), my current salinity is around 1.019 <you really should maintain at NSW of 1.023-4 area long-term>, so could I go to 1.010? <Slowly. See WWM for details.>
4) wait 4-6 weeks and hopefully clear this mess up, then slowly raise salinity back to 1.019 over a period of a week. <1.019 is not a good salinity. It is not low enough to prevent ich, as you now know, and it is likely unhealthy for fish and other beneficial organisms that are meant to have a higher SG.>
5) replace live rock
Thoughts? I'd rather not further stress the fish by pulling them all out and dipping them. <Well, why not leave the rock in the tank and move the fish to a hospital "tank" comprised of a large Rubbermaid container with a heater and a sponge filter? Then do your treatments in there. I'd leave the tank fishless for 8 weeks to be sure. If there's one ich parasite left in there, you can count in it finding that Powder Blue when you put him back. I'd suggest that you thoroughly read Steven Pro's mufti-part article on ich archived at www.reefkeeping.com>
If I'm all wet, let me know :) <We all are in this hobby.> Chris Goldenstein <Hope this helps. Good luck. Steve Allen.> 

Ich success
I am writing this e-mail as both a huge "thank you" as well as a lesson for others. After reading here for enough months I decided I would never again add a fish without QTing 1st. Thanks to the staff here for their firm stance on this issue. I bought a variegated Foxface on Sat afternoon, a real beauty! The next morning he was covered in ich. Boy was I glad I listened to the crew here now. So here's what I did after I calmed down and searched all I could read here and elsewhere. 1st I gave a 7 minute Fw bath (ph & temp matched). Then I removed 25% of the sw and replaced with Fw. Each day I would repeat this until the sal was 1.010. I also vacuumed the bottom real good each time. I continued to vacuum the bottom each day for 10 days. I also removed and washed in Fw all the pvc pipes of all the "eggs". After daily water changes for 10 days I went to every other day, then every few days. I can now report the fish has been ich free for over 4 weeks, eating great and looking well. I am now ready to have him join the display ich free. And best of all I did not have to subject him to copper. I hope this will encourage more people to us a qt and try the copper less as well as "snake oil cures. I, and my now healthy fish thank you.
<Yay! Congratulations on your success. Bob Fenner>

- Powder Blue Tang Problems - <Good morning, JasonC here...> Hello, I am a new aquarist. I have a 180 gallon acrylic, 500 watt reef / fish tank with a sump with a Euro-reef skimmer, via aqua chiller 77.5 degrees, rock bed, uv, miracle mud Caulerpa (razor) bed growing, 3 month old tank with a 3100 driving it and 2500 power head inside for flow. I have a nitrate bag in the sump. I have 5 anemones, 2 scallops, 10 emeralds crabs, 40 hermits, 2 brittle stars, 2 urchins, zoanthids, brain coral, mushrooms, 2 blennies, a dragonet, little strawberry, royal Gramma, purple fire fish, 2 perculas, a large copper band butterfly, (the tang and butterfly are buddies the largest fish and in the tank last), the butterfly is fine. I have probably 100 lbs of rock from around the world. Nice purple coralline algae on it.  I also dumped in 10 lbs if GARF's grunge when I started the tank. I have 4 inches of sand for a substrate Everybody is fine except the Tang! Total of 10 fish, (I'm under the 1" per 5 gallon rule) 1) I seem to have a lot of detritus build up on the rocks though. <Not unusual - you can clean off with a turkey baster.> 2) Also have a odd dark brown slime growth that's on the substrate, its like chocolate pudding almost, I used chem.-clean already, did nothing to it! It starts in little batches and grows. <Sounds like BGA - Cyanobacteria - can be addressed with more flow, and caution about over-feeding.> 3) My Powder Blue did have a little ich, I cured that, but now it is hiding and developed these symptoms! a) little spec's all over, like clear see thru areas, not white, not ich, but larger than ich. b) Light dusting of detritus on it. c) Eyes look cloudy I feed everybody frozen mysis shrimp that's soaked in extreme garlic. And feed the Tang Seaweed Select green marine algae dried seaweed. Can you help me with my Powder Blue Tang; I'm worried about him! <Hmm... those pictures sure look like ich, and don't really bode well for your tang. I would immediately put that fish through a pH-adjusted, freshwater dip with formalin in the bath and then place in a separate quarantine system - don't put it back in your main tank. Just based on your pictures, I can't honestly tell you that all will be well... your fish looks to be in serious trouble, and you need to take action now. If you don't have a quarantine tank, you need to get one immediately - dip this fish, and then isolate it. If it makes it through, you will probably have to continue treatments for a couple of weeks, and try to nurse it through. The Powder Blue tang is a notorious fish for its susceptibility to parasitic problems, and as much so for falling victim to rough handling in the capture/shipping process. Here is some reading for additional background: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/badacanthurusaq.htm > Sincerely, Ryan Gilmore P.S. Attached pic's for you! <Cheers, J -- >

Help!  Powder Blue Ich
Hello WWM Crew!,
<Hello Maurice>
I unfortunately need your advice again.  My power blue is eating quite well, however he now has an outbreak of what looks like Ich.  White spots and they look like they are causing some small welts on his body.  I feel really bad for him, I'm sure he must be miserable.
<I imagine>
Situation:  I've fed him and the other fish food with the garlic elixir, but I'm not sure if that caused my protein skimmer from working effectively.
<Can do so>
I read in some of your faq's that garlic oil will prevent the protein skimmer from working properly.  I'm thinking maybe the elixir is the same.
<Yes>
I'm wondering if the water quality went down because of this and caused him to break out with Ich.
<... might have contributed>
Action:
I did a water change Friday and gave him a freshwater dip. (water quality is ok, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate)
But the spots came back and he seemed to be ok no noticeable change of color or erratic behavior.
Sunday many more spots are visible.
Sunday night began turning up the temp from 76 to 78.  Over the next couple of days I will adjust it to 82
Today (Monday) I noticed he is a much lighter not the deep blue he normally is.  And he's scratching more.
<The cycle is ramping up... to a hyperinfestation>
Today (Monday) I took the measures that were mentioned in your faq's about lowering the specific gravity starting this morning lowering it to 1.019.  Tomorrow I will lower to 1.016.  I imagine changing too drastically would be bad?
<Yes... though the temp. and spg. should have been changed when you first noticed symptoms>
Today (Monday) fed him in the morning seems to have no loss of appetite.  Breathing looks ok Planning to continue 1.016 spg and temp at 82 for one month.
Planning to get cleaner gobies for ongoing measures
<Sounds good>
Questions:
Should I give him another freshwater dip?  Or would that be too much stress on him considering I just gave him one on Friday.
<I would not dip this fish at this point>
And figuring he will just get more parasites once I put him back into the main tank. ( I don't have a QT), I hate to see him suffer.  
<This is inconsistent. If you did not want this fish to suffer you would have gotten a quarantine tank and used it>
Because the tank is fish only, would you recommend I use copper safe to treat the whole tank?  Or try the lowing spg before taking chemical measures?
<You can read my, others opinions on this issue on WetWebMedia.com>
After lowering the spg to 1.016 how long after should the Ich clear up? 1day?
<Too late for such a rapid "cure"... your system now has a multi-stage infestation... The system won't cure with fish hosts present even with the lowered spg>
If they are still attached then would you recommend using copper safe to treat the whole tank?
<Please see WWM... I would not treat the main/display system>
I tried to look on your website for info on setting up a QT where specifically should I be looking?
<Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm and read through the linked articles and FAQs (at top, in blue), and the areas of the site on Parasitic disease... their treatment>
Thank you in advanced for your help.  I really appreciate your advice as always.
Maurice
<Time to study and act my friend. Get that quarantine/treatment tank going, remove your fishes to it, treat them there. Bob Fenner>

Re: Help!  Powder Blue Ich
Thank you Bob for the good advice as usual.
I went out and purchased a QT and set it up today! (better late then never huh, another lesson learned)
<Yes>
10gal tank
bio wheel filter
heater
Water used from main tank
Plan on daily water changes 10%
<Better to check on water quality, do larger changes as needed>
Today I gave the fish a dip prior to putting it into the QT, also bought some stuff called "NOX-ICH" from LFS (active ingredient sodium chloride, malachite green 1%) (inert ingredient 99.9%), but after reading some things on your FAQs I'm wondering if this is safe to use on my power blue so I didn't put it in yet.
<I wouldn't. Instead... oh, I see below>
I'm also a little confused on the directions which says to use 3 consecutive days.  Does that mean I put in the noted amount then after 3 days put in a carbon filter to remove the medication.  Or do I put in the noted amount everyday for 3 consecutive days then stop and monitor him for 2-4 weeks.
<Don't use it at all>
OR, is it better to use Copper Safe by Mardel for 1 month.  I also read on the FAQs that copper could be dangerous for the fish also?
<All useful medications for fishes have potential and real toxicity levels, exposures. I would/do use copper compounds for Cryptocaryon.>
What is your recommendation for medicating him?  Copper Safe, NOX-ICH, or is there something else you recommend for my power blue?  I'm holding off putting any medication in the QT until I get your advice.
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bestcryptfaqs.htm and quickly... and all the other related Crypt FAQs files beyond. Bob Fenner>
Thank you again for your help.
Maurice

Re: Help!  Powder Blue Ich
Hi Bob,
Sorry to bother you again, two more question I promise.
Fish in tank:
3-1/2"   Orange spotted rabbit
3"         Naso tang
2"        Fiji puffer
4"         banana wrasse
           2 small damsels
3-1/2"  power blue (currently in 10 gal hospital tank)
<... the rest of the fish have to be removed from the main tank... the system itself is infested... It's obvious to me you have not read where I've sent you... very disappointing>
I now notice two spots on the rabbit fish and 1 spot on the fin of the Naso (which I'm sure you knew would happen).  As you mentioned not to copper treat the main system even though it is fish only.
I saw a used 40 gal tall (unfortunately not long) tank at my local fish store.  If I attach a brand new Eheim canister filter, and fill it with a bag of sand from my main tank do you think that would be good enough to house all of my fish and treat for ich for 1 month, while my main system goes fallow?  Or is 40Tall too small?
<Please go to WWM and study>
Since my main tank is fish only would you recommend lowering the salinity below 1.016 to maybe 1.000 or below and raising the temperature above 82,
maybe 85 or higher to expedite the process.
<Ditto>
Thank you again for you wisdom.  No more questions from here I promise.  I just want to make sure I'm heading down a good path.
Maurice
<... my friend, the answers to these questions and myriad more things you need to know to save your fishes (that you're not aware of to ask currently) are posted where I've sent you repeatedly. Commit yourself to enough understanding for the health of your livestock.
Bob Fenner>

Re: Urgent!!!!! ich again
Hi Craig,
How are you? You're probably sick and tired of me bugging you with numerous questions.
<Hi Jun, I'm fine!  Nope, you can write anytime!>
My second purple tang has ich (sounds familiar?). I know tangs are ich magnet but can't help myself. I just love them. The purple tang was QT'd for 3 weeks before I introduce him in my main tank. 5 days later, he's got ich. I finally got him out last Tuesday night and into my hospital tank (20 gal). I added 2 ml of Cupramine (did not do FW dip because he is already covered with ich and I am afraid that he wont survive the dip) and 2 days later I added another 2 ml of Cupramine. I used a Salifert copper test and I got 0  copper reading. I called SeaChem and they told me that 4 ml of Cupramine will give a reading of .5 ppm (recommended therapeutic level). I ordered a SeaChem copper test from marine depot and got the test  today. Run the test right away (this time using SeaChem copper test) and the copper level/reading is still 0 ppm in my QT.
My question is should I dose my QT with 2 ml of Cupramine again. The tang's condition has significantly improved from Tuesday (1/14/03). He still has a few white spots left, maybe 4 or 5, on it's body and dorsal fin. He started eating again yesterday and appears to be in no distress. The product says that I have to keep the copper level at .5 ppm for 14 days for it to be effective. I'm afraid that the parasite is just dormant right now and that they may develop immunity to copper and infest my tang again in a few days. Please help. No carbon in my canister, using cycle and Amquel for ammonia spike (hospital tank not fully cycled).
Thanks again... Jun
<Administer the copper as shown needed by the test kit and maintain it at the level on the Cupramine label. The ick won't develop an immunity to copper.  I usually test once in the AM and once in the PM for proper copper level. Make sure you don't have anything that will react with the copper like LR or sand. Everything should be inert (plastic, glass, etc) Keep him in the copper for the two weeks, two weeks more W/O, and hold your tank fallow for as long as you can stand it. I would also start feeding him medicated food before you put him back in the main, so he will be eating it steadily at the time of stress and possible reinfestation.  Follow the label and feed it for two weeks. The remaining ick in your main will not have a viable host (that isn't medicated) so they will die. I did this and had a few spots after two months of QT! The medicated food did them in (all my fish love the stuff for some reason) and I haven't had so much as a minor spot in over a year. (knocking on wood as I type). I'm a big fan of copper and Metronidazole (Flagyl) for ick.  This should do the trick.  I just keep the food handy in case of minor outbreak. Good luck!  Craig>

Big Tang, Reef, What Size Trouble?
Dear Bob & Co.,
Probably asking for it but here we go. Bought a Sohal Tang that was 1 week at the LFS. Brought it home into my QT for 2 weeks but never made it. Didn't find any fare I offered palatable for one week though appeared healthy. Worried and sympathetic I grabbed it and tossed it into my main tank (150g FULL BLOWN REEF, assorted Acro sp., Monti. sp, LPS, clams, Asfur Angel (3in) Potter's (2in), Yellow Tang (1.5 in), Blue-throat Trig (2in), pair of Nigripes Clowns (1 in), and a small toad angler (2 in), shoal of green Chromis (for the angler)). Ok 2 days later the Sohal busts out with ICH. I've been in this hobby for sometime and know the mistakes I have made in this case. On the positive side the Sohal is munching everything green, red, or brown that is algae in the tank. Such a proficient grazer, but is yet to eat anything offered. About 3 days later the Asfur, Yellow tang, and Trigger started to show same symptoms but to a much less degree (scattered dots, perhaps 10 on each fish). Checked water chemistry knowing things will be stable and they were. So far I am in the second week of this...fish do not seem stressed at all...no scratching, heavy breathing, flashing, fighting. ( I think I am very lucky to have what appears to be only white-spot disease (Cryptocaryon), as opposed to velvet (Amyloodinium) which I understand will kill in combination. I tried to use a hand magnifier but couldn't see any white dusting). They do the same dance when I walk by, thrashing about in anger...FEED ME PLEASE!!!!This morning the fish outside of the Sohal seems to be recovered from the dots. But I do know that they (dots) are most likely in the free swimming stage, going to reproduce. Im not panicked because with each of these cycles of dots to no dots...the dots seem less and less, in fact the clowns showed no symptoms at all. But will this cycle be ongoing perpetually for the life of this tank or its inhabitants? Will someday one side succumb to the other? Sans regular maintenance what else can I do? Regards, Dennis
<Alright Dennis, I'll spare berating you for doing something you know is not very bright...... I MUST wonder with all you have invested, what on earth were you thinking? Do you gamble?
Anyway, aside from a torturous teardown, I would get a few cleaner shrimp, a few cleaner gobies, and some medicated Tetra Antiparasitic food and go for it for a couple of weeks.  Feed nothing but the medicated food according to label directions. I break it into smaller bits for smaller fish. If this doesn't work, then it's QT and copper time for one and all and at least one month of no fish in your reef.  Tell me you won't do this again!
No more Russian Roulette!   Craig>  

New Tank & Tangs
Hello again crew, 
<Good Day>
Hope all is well. I have a Ich issue in my new tank. 
<Yikes> 
I wrote a while back ago and took the advice on the transfer. Happy to report no losses thanks to the crew! The problem I am having is this. I moved all the fish and rock to my new 500 gal Reef tank. It took 2 months ( Before the move) to cycle. For a little over a month Everything has been in the tank and doing well, until a few days ago. I have 1 Naso tang, 1 Powder blue tang, 2 Hippo tangs. They love their new 10' home. When they were in the old tank I never had any Ich issues at all.
Now the Powder blue and the 2 hippos are covered in Ich. The Naso has cloudy eyes. I am not sure why this is. I tested and then Had the water tested and all is O.K. ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate between 10-20. PH is 8.2. Phosphate barely reads. The water is clear as I have ever had it. I change the water ( As all my tanks) 20% every weekend. 
When I had the fish in the old tank, I could never get the nitrates under 80. The load was too much for it and as the Tangs are getting bigger they needed more room. They seem to really be happy. I think they are too big to pull out and put in a hospital tank to treat for Ich. I have anemones and corals so I cant treat the tank. I was thinking about fresh water dip but I wanted Your advice first. Can you help? ( I don't mean with the dip, just advice would be fine, although the crew coming over for a service call.. Hmmmmm..) Thanks in advance. 
<Scott, I would suggest removing the anemones and corals to a QT tank and treat the display tank using a copper based medication. Also add a vitamin supplement to their food such as Selcon or even some of the garlic extracts out there. James (Salty Dog)>

Powder blue tang issues
Hello,
<Hi there>
I had a powder blue in a QT for almost five weeks with no problems at all. Three days ago my QT UV sterilizer broke. Yesterday my powder blue woke up with a mild case of ich. 
<Yikes, typical>
There are 6 cleaner gobies in the QT, and they are doing their job. I gradually dropped the salinity to 1.018 and raised the temp to 80F. I am aware of the benefits of the fresh water dips, and used them many times. 
<Mmm, did you this time?>
The problem with this powder blue is that he is extremely shy and neurotic.
<Also not unusual>
I am not sure what might stress him more - fresh water dips or the sight of a net (or a plastic container, or a hand to get him to the dip). Considering his fear factor, should I still try the dips, or wait and see how he will turn out tomorrow? Thank you.
<I would have dipped/bathed the fish on its way into the quarantine system... Now...? I might wait another day or two... try adding vitamins to the food, water... Bob Fenner>

Ich
Hello again,
Here is the situation. I have a new Kole tang that I FW dipped w/copper (I believe .4 ppm) before adding to my tank. There is a small amount of ich in the tank (the fish get a few spots which disappear a day or two later thanks to cleaner shrimp). However, the tang is developing more spots, so I quarantined him. Now I have a few questions.
1) Is a SG of about 1.010 (under 16 ppm Salinity I believe, is this correct?) too low for the tang? The SG would be lowered slowly.
<That is the lowest I have seen used. Do so carefully and watch your fish closely for adverse reactions.>
2) If I do the lowered SG, would you recommend treatment with medications?
<No, should be enough all by itself.>
3) If yes to number 2, would you suggest formalin or copper (.2 ppm?)?
<Neither. Pick one method of treatment; Hyposalinity, Copper, or Formalin and stick to it.>
My concern with copper is that I also use the q-tank for inverts and I wasn't sure if the copper would be removed enough with activated carbon.
Will it?
<Easily removed from the water. Nearly impossible to remove from calcareous media; liverock, crushed coral, etc.>
4) Would a UV filter be helpful for removing the rest of the ich in the main tank?
<Helpful, but not needed. Leave the tank without fish for one month and all cysts will have hatched and died by then.>
What about for when quarantining livestock before addition to the main tank?
<You should always quarantine all livestock for one month.>
Thank you in advance, Kevin
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Ich
<<Greetings...>>
In my 240 gallon I noticed on my regal, and purple tang that they have ich. I always keep my copper at .15 in the tank, 
<<constantly? This won't promote long-term good health in your fish. Copper is toxic.>>
 and I'm surprised the fish got it. 
<<Well... your decor and substrate would be absorbing some of this. I assume you are using a test kit to determine these values?>>
 I boosted the copper up to .20 Now the fish in the tank are regal, purple, Sailfin, and yellow tang, blue ring angel, SFE, and chainlink eel, male blue jaw trigger, Niger trigger, blue line trigger, and a small queen trigger. 
<<That is a lot of fish, even for a 240 - I hope your filtration is robust.>> 
Do you have any tips to give me against ich? 
<<Do you quarantine these fish before you put them in the main tank? That would be my suggestion.>> 
Please help me. Also, I have been looking for a queen trigger for a year and finally found mine a month ago. Now I don't want to loose him, because he is so cool. 
<<They are cool, but are well known for being quite hostile towards just about everything. Hope this choice works out for you.>> 
If the ich does get worse, can I set up a smaller tank, do a Fw dip on the queen and move him to the smaller tang (by himself). 
<<Should have done this from the start, you may find soon that you need lots of smaller tanks to take everyone out of the main tank and run it fallow for a while.>> 
Is this a good idea or should I keep him in the big tank? 
<<pH-adjusted freshwater dips and isolation in quarantine are a good plan, yes.>> 
If the small tank idea works, what should be the minimum tank size for him for about a month. 
<<Something large enough to move/turn around in - you didn't reveal the size of this fish. I like 20-long as an all-around good quarantine tank, if this will work for you.>>
 Thanks!
<<Cheers, J -- >>

Miscellaneous (Tangs, Ich)
Hi Bob, or Steven, or Anthony,
<Anthony Calfo in your service>
I hope everyone is doing great. I have a few questions. First, are Tangs more susceptible to ich than other fish? 
<many do seem to be (mostly from temperature drops like when new/transported and from improper cooler water changes>
The reason I ask is that I have a 75 gallon tank with a flame angel, a flame hawk, a purple Firefish, and a newly added juvenile Sailfin tang (I had previously kept the Sailfin in a 30 gal for the last six months but as you can imagine he got too large for this tank), some snails, hermit crabs and a cleaner shrimp, 45lbs live rock. Within a week of adding the Sailfin very small white specks (about 5-10 at this point) appeared on his body which I attribute to ich. 
<quite possibly... and is this tank much cooler (more than 3 degrees?>
None of the other fish show any symptoms whatsoever though the angel and flame hawk will allow the cleaner shrimp to groom them. Before I had the Sailfin in there I had a purple tang which also displayed the signs of ich which is why I ask my question. I gave the purple a pH balanced Methylene blue fresh water dip for 10 minutes and quarantined him for three weeks before sending him back to the LFS (I too like one of your other daily questions tried to put the Sailfin and purple together. Big Mistake! and if the other reader is reading this I can assure him/her as you did that it will never work). Do you think I should quarantine the Sailfin or do you think the cleaner shrimp will take care of it? 
<please do QT the fish... never rely on cleaner fish/shrimp to effect a cure once an infection sets in>
Unfortunately, I haven't seen the tang go to the cleaner shrimp. Do you think the tang will utilize his services?
<hard to say, but again... don't count on it>
Finally, The purple Firefish is also having problems. He won't or can't close his mouth. It looks like lockjaw or something. Have you ever heard of this? 
<yes... commonly a dietary deficiency (usually a precursor to death when it reaches this stage. Has the Firefish been allowed to eat a narrow diet or one of whole prey items only (brine shrimp and the like)?>
Is there something I can do? He seems to be eating just fine though a little awkwardly.
<Selcon and VitaChem (they are different) in food ASAP>
Thanks, Jeff
<quite welcome, my friend. Anthony>

Ich in mornings = Cryptocaryon
Dear Crew,
<Anthony Calfo in your service>
I know there are lots of posts on ich. We've had our Naso tang for over a year and we had ich (black and white) upon introduction. We know the standard treatments, hyposalinity, increased temp, copper, fresh water dips, cleaner shrimps. We never use copper (bad for tang's gut, I hear) or fresh water dips (rather traumatic).
<I disagree wholeheartedly on the FW dip read... it is much less traumatic than a long term chemo treatment. The key is to do it properly (temp, ph adjusted, oxygenated, etc). I have had a couple thousand tangs in my wholesale experience through dips as long as fifteen minutes.> 
Our tang gets a few ich spots (either black or white) in the mornings.
<a giveaway that it is Cryptocaryon with its short fast life cycle>
It's occasional and probably the shrimp pick it off over the course of a day or two (it disappears and the shrimp jump on the fish). We've been trying to start introducing corals so we can't reduce salinity as much (used to keep it at 1.021--now it's at 1.024) and our temp is 82.
Nitrates are near zero. Fish looks otherwise fine. pH is a little low--close to 8 (Salifert--less than 8.3).
Why mornings? 
<above>
Is there anything we can do? For example, it's likely that pH and temp go down overnight. 
<the pH drop is normal and natural due to respiration (although I hope you don't let it dip below 8.3 for a reef tank). The temperature drop I cannot explain other than saying it is a flaw. How is it possible if you have thermostatic heaters? Temp drops are surefire ways to flare Ich>
Perhaps, it's because the fish doesn't move at night? Would increasing water movement help? 
<nope>
I hate to have this little fellow condemned to a life of being dinner for those nasty parasites. It probably keeps the shrimps happy but they eat flakes. Thanks, Allyson
<trap the creature in the morning when the fish is sluggish... remove to QT with Formalin and/or copper for four weeks during which time the parasites in the tank will wane without a viable host assuming you correct the temp fluctuations. All will be just fine in one month. The best course of action. Best regards, Anthony>

Naso Relapse...
Anthony,
I have a feeling I'm going to wear out my welcome, 
<no worries, my friend>
but unfortunately I am in need of some advice yet again. I used the search option on your web page but could find very little info about my new problem. If you remember we have been going back and forth about my blonde Naso, which became ill over the weekend. Well since the transport into a QT, and subsequent treatment with Greenex which started on Monday, his ich cleared up, his appetite increased and the gilling ceased. In fact he was looking very good, up until last night. The ich has come back, which isn't a big problem I was expecting that. 
<indeed>
The new problem is that the poor guy now has cloudy eyes. To be exact it looks like there is a kind of film which has coated the eye. Also he refused food, both last night and this morning. 
<secondary infection or response to the aggressive Greenex treatment>
I searched on WetWebMedia.com for any articles relating to this. Really all I found were articles relating to exophthalmia, which he definitely doesn't have. There is zero swelling around the eyes.
<agreed>
I set up the quarantine tank using water from the main display. So my thinking is that whatever was in the main display, to cause his sickness in the first place, is still there making him sick. 
<the water was appropriate... the fish is immuno-compromised and brought it in on his, er... person>
I was hoping that treatment would help this. Could this be a side infection, initiated by the ich weakening his immune system? 
<either or both>
Is this yet another type of protozoan infection? Is there anything I can do, outside of a quick water change, to aide him? Should I do anything?
<I still rank freshwater dips above all including Greenex>
I realize this is a lot of questions. But since I'm not out of the woods yet, I was hoping you could help point the way.
<no trouble... a common problem. Naso may still be quite fine in a week. Easy on that Greenex please. It is cure or kill.>
Thank you, Michael Mariani
<best regards, Anthony>

Re: Ich (I think)
Thank You for the info and I put in a big white block that will automatically adjust the alkalinity of the tank (don't remember what it is called).
<It won't, sigh...>
I bought the marine max to increase slime coat on fish so parasites won't attach to fish. 
<It won't, bigger sigh>
I have increased temp, bought cleaner wrasses, but they died because my brown tang stressed them out too much.
<They didn't die because of this. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm>
We have cleaner shrimps but since both are carrying babies they are not wanting to clean though they did a little yesterday) I am afraid of lowering salinity as am already having problems with KH and PH. Your site suggests getting neon gobies to clean fish, will my big brown tang also chase them?
<Maybe...>
Can I get more cleaner shrimps or will the spawning ones attack them. I really want to cure my fish with more environmental manipulation and less meds.
<You need to separate the fishes and non-fish livestock, treat the fishes separately....>
Also, should I continue feeding medicated flakes? We have a UV sterilizer and were told to get a protein skimmer will this help and can I fight the ich w/out copper?
<You need to go back, read about set-up... you should have had a protein skimmer from day one... it would have helped prevent the problems you're currently fighting.>
Assuming and I am almost certain it is improper Alkalinity, can these environmental things cure prob. My husband will not use copper or get hospital tank due to past experience. As always thanks for advice.
<You are a prime example of "good/bad consumerism"... someone/s has/have tapped into your psyches, pocketbooks and found ways of convincing you to "buy something/s"... Don't cheat yourselves or your livestock... learn what you're doing in setting up your system first... treat your livestock in TWO different systems at this point... LEARN, if not from me, from the bulletin boards, chatrooms, even books... Don't think to act on impulse, "buying something"... Think deeply on this. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich (I think)
Mr. Fenner, I read in excess of 50 pages on your website over the weekend. It said not to adjust PH, but find the underlying problem. 
<THE underlying problem IS low alkalinity... pH IS adjusted easily by adjusting, rectifying your low alkaline reserve>
Also, it says that parasites are caused from stress in the tank. 
<This is only ONE of MANY inputs...>
I cannot find anything else wrong in the tank except that the ammonia was a little high a few weeks ago and the PH has been low for about a week. The ich comes at 8:30pm and is gone by 8-9 am Everyday. That does not sound like the life cycle of ich.
<It is.>
Your site says it stays on the fish for 5-7 days, then falls off, reproduces and attaches back to the fish. This is not happening.
<You have the beginnings of understanding... only... the cyclist in your system is multi-generational... ALL of the parasites are not dropping off according to some magical time scale... It's as if you planted vegetables on different days, weeks... some will "produce" at later times...>
It is only on fish for 12 hours, once fish wake up and start swimming around it is gone. 
<No... only "apparently" gone... the marks on your fish livestock are resultant (not the parasites themselves) of infestation... the fish, system "gets better" during the day, and the wound/marks of the parasites are less visible...>
Our water is good. I did a 10 gal water change this weekend, ammonia is 0, nitrites 0 Nitrates are 20ppm and PH is finally at 8.2(for now) The fish all get along, so I cannot figure out what the problem is to fix it. Aside from
what your site says to run copper through the system, which I cannot do. I do read where you send me, but I still cannot find the problem. Please think about what I have said and see if there is ANYTHING that seems wrong here that would cause these problems. 
<You have "good water quality", yet you state there has been transient ammonia, vacillating pH? What is wrong is your lack of complete understanding...>
We have spent in excess of $1500 on various things trying to fix these problems in the last 2-3 months.
<This is meaningless to me... you could spend a seemingly infinite sum and still be unsuccessful>
What else can I possibly do? If I use Marine-Max will it harm my fish? 
<Call, write the manufacturer... or whoever you bought this product from... Why did you buy it? I don't use it, endorse its use>
We want to use something natural as ALL other meds for ich including copper killed 4 of our pets (that we had for over 12 months) We use Melafix to try to ensure they do not get any bacterial infections while they have these parasites and we sometimes give them garlic elixir. What else can be done? And please don't assume I have not read your site because I have, many times. And it all relates to bad water or bad livestock.
<Mmm, no. There are three sets of...: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm>
My water is good
<Read the above sent by you in this message...>
and my fish have all been in the tank at least 2 months and some much longer. Please help me, I am running out of things to do.
<These doings, lack of doings are easily described... you should do what others have described that actually worked/works... environmental manipulation, isolation of hosts, parasitized systems, copper treatments... described... on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Ich (I think)
Okay, I thought I had it figured out but now I am not sure. Thought fish were stressed due to lack of oxygen while inverts were awake. Could explain why PH drops in middle of night. But I bought a new air pump and new air stones and an air rod.
<Has little, nothing to do with pH shift... you didn't read where I sent you...>
All work wonderfully and still they all had ich this morning. Was reading more about ich and I guess it seems normal (according to this article) that ich disappears during the day and reappears when lights go out. 
<No>
So, I have decided to keep lights on longer as well as feed fish anti-parasitic flakes by Tetra they contain something that ich hates) and use Marine-Max by tropical Science to build up immune system as well as increase slime coat so Ich cannot attach to my fish. Does this sound like it could solve my problems.
<No>
We HATE to medicate the tank with all our inverts, plus have not had any luck in the past with ich meds or hospital tanks. What are your views on leaving lights on longer and how long should they be on a day while trying to battle ich as well as how long should I alter the photoperiod? 
<Waste of time>
What are your views on Marine-max?
<Not important. You can only save your livestock by first understanding what is going on in your system, next knowing what to do at this point, and lastly "doing it". Apply yourself. Bob Fenner> 

Ich I hope not!!!
Mr. Fenner,
I am sorry to bother you again I have been trying to use your chat forum for my questions). As you know we lost about 8 fish about 2.5 months ago due to What appeared to be Velvet. I saved one Hippo tang and left him alone for about 6 weeks. Where he had no signs of anything for 4 weeks. We bought two tank raised I believe) true perculas two weeks ago both fine) and last week bought a Desjardin Sailfin tang. We dipped the tang in fresh water before putting him in our system. He now has a few small white spots in various parts of his body fin, side, and tail). He doesn't scratch on rocks, but has visited the cleaner shrimp a few times not often). My hippo scratches maybe once a day or every other day and is not using cleaners at all (he really did before). Should I be concerned?
<Should you be concerned? Yes...>
I don't want to lose any of my fish and ESPECIALLY my Paracanthurus hepatus! My husband wanted to start feeding medicated flakes, but I said NO.
<No reason not to try them, really>
I read so much on your site that this may or may not be anything that I wanted to check with you first.
<Mmm, "it may or may not be something">
Temp is 81-83(dropped a few degrees the night before last, maybe my problem with spots???)Trying desperately to keep stable.
Salinity is at 1.023 am going to lower slowly to 1.020 and do have two very good cleaner shrimps. My question, is this ich? and should I be worried it is going to wipe my system out again? Thanks in advance.
<Might be ich, might wipe out your system. Bob Fenner>

Yet Another Ich Question...!
Mr. Fenner, I have read all related questions prior to bothering you but had no luck with finding anything relating to my problem. I am new to "The Hobby" and introduced a hippo tang into my reef tank a couple of weeks ago (12 Gallon Eclipse).
<A Paracanthurus in such a small system...>
I DID dip him in a product called "HydroPlex". He developed the onset of Ich two days ago and I purchased and added a product called "No-Ich Marine" to the tank that same day.
<Both non-effective products in my estimation...>
I started doing some research and you can imagine my dismay when I found your web site and started reading all the horror stories regarding Ich.
Do you know if the products I used are valuable as I am using them? 
<Yes, do know, and no, they're not...>
I have raised the temp, vacuumed the live gravel and rock, changed the water, purchased a cleaner shrimp, etc., etc. as I see you advise over
and over again, but am hopeful that this "new" type of medication will prove more effective than older products. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer!
<Ah, my new friend... I do wish I had some 'magic' or other-additional information to render... you now know about all I do re the common parasitic infestations of marine fishes... do continue with the environmental manipulation, use of cleaners, vitamin prep.s.... Bob Fenner, who would of course, encourage you to dip-bath, or quarantine all new livestock... not place the stated species in such a small system... I wish you well, life> 

White spots again
Dear Bob,
We have a Naso tang we got 4 weeks ago. Two weeks after purchase, he got white spots. The white spots went away with hyposalinity/hi temp treatment but some more came back 2 weeks later (now). We need some advice.
<Okay>
Temp is 84 and specific gravity is 1.019. The two large cleaner shrimps
jump on him and appear to feed. Now one of the damsels looks like he has a spot on his fin and on his body. The tang spits out food treated with Selcon (he appears to hate it--any better tasting vitamins?). 
<Not really>
He's getting much thinner. He feeds but is feeding less. No other disturbing behaviors (i.e. heavy breathing, scratching) and he still is active. We first noted the spots on Friday and it's Monday. Last time the white spots looked a little bigger and when they fell off, he had grey spots (that's our guess because white spot became grey spot and then disappeared). Still, we weren't sure if we had a new disease or whether these dark spots were residuals but they went away. 
<Cycled off, to reproduce... >
My darkest fear is that we don't have Cryptocaryon but Amyloodinium which you say requires "early" treatment. Your book is the only one I could find that has at least a diagram that demonstrates the differential diagnostic pattern of spots. In the Amyloodinium, it looks like the spots in your diagram are more dense at the top (dorsal fin) of the fish. Ours are more dense at the bottom. Last time the spots looked bigger. I don't want to say that these look powdery but they look finer.
<Yes... and the fish/es may have both...>
Last time the spots were worse in the morning. I'm not sure if that's true now but they're gradually getting worse. I don't see the distinctive dark spots again.
Now for the hospital tank issue. It's a 29 gallon and we put in an Emperor 280 filter with a Biowheel. Last time we put him in, 8 hours later there
was a terrible ammonia spike and he was cowering in the corner with alerting spots. Surprise, hospital tanks need to cycle too (stupid). We were cocky when the white spot went away 2 weeks ago and just let it run and didn't track the hospital tank. The temp was VERY low and now, after a 5 gallon water change, ammonia is .1 and nitrite is .01. Can helpful bacteria grow in very cold water? 
<Yes... though more slowly, and with lower metabolism>
I don't want to leave him unattended in that tank but what are our choices? 
<At this point, not many... to return the fish to the main tank, lower temperature (to allow weight gain) and lower still the spg (to about 1.015)...>
I'm getting desperate. On your web site, you say that tangs need to be allowed to feed continuously. Given that algae won't grow in the copper treated tank, what are our options? How can we give him food when we're not there? Last time we tried to copper him, he still ate a lot.
<As stated, I would return the Naso to the main tank, feed human-intended algae from a feeding clip (mounted near the surface)>
People told me damsels are not very vulnerable to this. 
<Not so... wide range of susceptibility, some very much so>
Is the fact that one of them has it a bad sign that this disease is pernicious? 
<Not necessarily>
If we take all the fish out and put them in copper, will the live rock house the parasites?
<Yes... for a period of time... your system has these parasites as well as the fish hosts...>
Finally, we got Cupramine. Last time we added the specified amount to the specified amount of water and the measure on our kit was low. Is Cupramine (nonchelated copper) harder to get and keep at therapeutic levels or could it be that our kit is off?
<Both... copper does not stay in solution in the alkaline environment of saltwater in any format...>
This is very very painful. Thanks for being there. Allyson
<Return the fish, lower the spg... and let's hope that the combination of the ich-impugned environment, use of cleaners (they may not make the transition to lowered spg) and vitamin feeding do effect a cure here. Bob Fenner>

Re: white spots again
Wow! What a prompt response. Thanks.
Let me clarify. We have not yet put him in the hospital tank for fears of another ammonia spike. Can we just put him in there for the several hours that we are home and return him to his tank when we go to work in the morning? Or are the transitions more dangerous than the cure? We could consider it a prolonged "dip" to give him an edge on the fight.
<Moving this fish is not a good idea... very stressful... I would leave in place>
You suggested "human intended algae" on a clip. He's refused Nori in the past (great idea). Any specific brands? We have lots of green algae in the main tank which is why I'm reluctant to remove him.
<No specific brands... the "Red" algae (like Porphyra species) though they look green when prepared, are best>
Do you think he's eating less because of the heat??? Man, that's so simple.
<Yes... and its metabolism is being accelerated by the same...>
We can reduce the heat. How low a salinity do you think the shrimp and hermit crabs can tolerate (1.015)? 
<More a matter of how quickly than how low... do trend down a half to a full thousandth maximum in any 24 hour period>
Right now I just wish I had a bare tank I could copper. Everyone on the list server poo-poo'ed the idea that tangs and invertebrates were incompatible (I think Dakin said that)...
<Very surprising... Nick knows better>
This stuff is all consuming...Thanks again for being there.
<Agreed, stick with your plan... you will be successful. Bob Fenner>
Allyson

Re: white spots again
Bob,
I stopped by our Japanese store. Found lots of "kombu" which is dried kelp (which he would not touch).
<This is mainly a matter of familiarity... our tangs eat kombu... but not for a few days to weeks...>
<No specific brands... the "Red" algae (like Porphyra species) though they look green when prepared, are best>
Are there any warning signs to look for where we'll have to copper him? 
<Yes, levels with test kits are useful, but the animals appearance and behavior are paramount... rapid breathing to labored, sulking in corners, the bottom, blanching with white large areas on its sides (Much like the animal looks in early morning with the lights off/on)... are signs that there is too much exposure.>
How long should we wait? If he has trouble breathing, is it too late (he doesn't--yet).
<Not necessarily>
I lowered the temp to 82 and he is eating well again.
<Yes. Bob Fenner>
Allyson

Re: white spots again
Sorry, I might not have been clear. We're leaving the little guy in the main tank and feeding him as much as we can and slowly lowering the salinity. We love our invertebrates (hermits and cleaner shrimp) so we're watching them carefully. The Naso tang with white spot ate less today and I'm getting nervous. He's a fussy eater but I'll keep trying the kombu.
Perhaps I can just leave it in the tank and hope he'll try it. 
<Also try strips of Nori... soaked with a little Selcon, Zoecon, vitamin prep.>
Our damsel with a little white spot looks like his fin is being eaten a bit. He's an aggressive fellow so out doubt it was from another fish. Do you think we should copper him or hope that the lowered salinity will take care of things.
<Hard to judge from this end of the keyboard... would leave it/s/he be for now. Bob Fenner>
Al

Ick....
Hi Bob,
I have a few tangs in my tank (Purple, Yellow, Naso) also HAD a Hippo, Kole bought them too fast and they did not survive.
<Ah, sorry to hear/read>
The Naso was purchased at the same time as the Hippo... Last week....
However I was patient and she had been in the store for a few weeks before I brought it home. I don't understand why the Hippo died. He ate everything and did not have that pinched look. He was actually a little round. He swam with the other tangs and seemed fine. He lived only 3 days. One morning we found him laying in his rock (which he lays in to sleep) breathing really fast... a few hours later he was dead.
<Hmm>
Anyway my question is this. The Naso has developed ICK. (I think... she has tiny white dots on her eyes and one side of her body) She often invites the cleaner shrimp to clean her by stopping next to them. They do!! I have some nice pictures of the cleanings also. I will send them to you if you like.
<Okay>
Since my Reef appears very stable and the shrimp clean the fish AND the others are REALLY healthy... they eat soo well they are thick. I feed them frozen brine, Nori, and Spirulina and sometimes plankton.
Should I take her out or just let the environment take care of her.
<I would leave all in place for now... if this is/has become an entrenched parasite situation, you may be fortunate to strike a "balance" between the hosts (the fishes) and the protozoans here. If the number of spots/evidence of infestation becomes too much, the fishes start to show signs of weakening, you will have to move out the non-fish livestock and likely treat the main/display tank. Please read over our site starting here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm>
Is it true that like the common cold ick is there to be caught by fish with low immune systems and that it is in our reef tanks anyway?
<A bit different. More like "Having to be there"... let's say analogous to "getting ringworm"... you have to be around where the causative mechanism is... marine ich is not omnipresent. It is almost always introduced by infested host fishes. This IS the prima facie argument for dips/baths, quarantine... to exclude the introduction of parasites.>
If not will the ick die off if all the hosts in the tank have high immune systems?
<Hmm, actually yes. This approach is of use, and used with food, game fishes, even ornamentals in some countries, facilities... Not in the U.S. as far as I'm aware with pet-fish>
ALSO, I am having trouble feeding Naso. I finally figured out how to get her to eat something. I used to soak the Nori in tank water for 15 to 30 minutes and add frozen brine to it and feed the mixture. She did not eat at all. Then I started feeding JUST Nori or just brine to see if she would eat one of them. She never touched the brine however she did bite on the Nori and then spit it out. To my knowledge she always spits it out. Finally I tried
Spirulina flakes and she did not eat them .... But when I soaked them for 15 minutes she actually ate it and did not spit it out. So I have been nursing her with these.
<Ah, congratulations! Your perseverance and experimentation are paying off. This specimen will very likely be accepting other foods soon>
The other Tangs are pigs so I have to wait until they are not near to feed her. She still has that pinched look in her belly.
I assume her immune system is low because of lack of food and hence the reason she has ick.
<Not just foods/nutrition, but certainly a factor here>
So my last question is ... What can I feed the Naso that does not cost a fortune? She picks all day at the deep red wine colored stuff/algae? on the LR. (have 173 lbs in 108 gallon tank) I don't see much of this red stuff left... she had been eating it slowly....So I would like to get her to eat something else.
<Do a search shop at your local oriental food store or section of larger food store for human-intended algae. There are many types, some of which, when soaked to become soft will be accepted.>
As usual your input would be greatly appreciated by BOTH of us :)
Regards, Robert
<Chat with you soon my friend. Bob Fenner>

Ich-Be-Gone!
Dear Bob:
I wrote you in the beginning of September about adding a purple tang about a week after a mighty Sohal tang. On a feedback note, this went very well and they were fine with each other after a little sparring. Even though the purple tang came out of a 2 week quarantine showing no signs of ich at the LFS, it wasn't in my 110 more than 24 hrs before it showed signs of it.
<Rats!>
Probably stress induced after the harrowing capture, bagging fiasco at the LFS. The next day I took him out of the 110 and put him in a 10 Gallon hospital with ionized copper sulfate at .15mg/l for 18 days using a AquaClear 150 with the sponge and 3 bioballs from the 110s wet/dry. Two weeks after the removal of the Purple from the 110, the Sohal started showing spots. He went into a 30 Ga hospital (10 GA much too small and with the purple tang impossible) with .15mg/l ionized copper sulfate for 18 days with an Emperor 250 adding 5 bio balls from the 110. Two weeks after I took the Sohal out of the 110, the Banggai cardinal showed spots (and they're not easy to see on him either).
So I put the purple tang (off the copper after 21 days) in the 30 and put the cardinal in the 10 with copper at .15 mg/l. After I removed the copper from the 30 with the Sohal and the Purple (who been kept separate with a plastic mesh screen) the Purple got it again (!) in the hospital tank (!) after 21 days of copper(!).
<Arggghhhh>
Soooo, those two tangs went on copper again for another 21 days. Now, about 6 weeks have passed with these fish in several tanks, on and off copper, and no signs of it in my 110 display tank (which has a couple of small ocellaris clowns, a cleaner goby and a purple Firefish as fish residents and who have not shown any sign of this plague and non-fish of 3 Lysmata cleaner shrimp, 3 thumbnail-size Dardanus megistos hermits (red with white spots and black hairs), a sally lightfoot and a porcelain crab (I figured lots of filter feeding crabs would help). The 110 SPG for this time period was 0.020 at 82°F and I have been feeding everybody Kent's Xtreme Garlic (basically garlic juice and not oil) a drop/feeding. I have had a Lifeguard 40 w UV sterilizer running 24/7 circulating from its own pump in the sump.
<Okay>
Now all the hospital fish were clean and showing no signs of ich for about a week or two. (I must also say, as an aside, that during those treatments,
those two tanks (basically cycled the hospital tanks) and rode out very very high levels of Ammonia (really off the charts even with 30%/day water changes and dosing with Kent's Ammonia Detox, they tolerated low levels of Oxygen (unreadable to <5 mg/l) increased with multiple airstones and additional pumps for circulation, and high (>6.5 mg/l of Nitrite). The Sohal was unaffected (visibly at least) and the purple tang showed a little HLLE that went away after the water quality improved.) pH drops because of no sand to buffer (adjusted with Kent's super buffer) got it to 8.2 with dKH of about 18.
<Quite a trial>
Anyway, I put the Banggai back in the 110 for 1 week to test it for signs of ich. It didn't show any signs so at long last, I returned the purple tang to the 110 and guess what€“2 days later and ich spots. This is after a fresh water dip w/meth blue before returning to main tank.
I have not lost any fish but now I'm pissed and here are my questions ...
1) I guess I'll have to remove the lace rock (no live rock yet) wash it in fresh water and let it sit outside (in Minnesota) for two weeks. The 100 lbs
of live sand will need to be removed and tossed in the trash (I've read where a fresh water bath for two weeks is helpful but why take the chance). I'll then put the Sohal and the purple tang in the bare 110 with some PVC elbows, etc., and run ionized copper sulfate in it at least .15 mg/l for 21 days. I will need to put the 3 shrimp, the SLF, porcelain, hermit crabs in the 10 ga (with a little sand and maybe a 10 lb chunk of live rock). I will probably have to put the clowns and gobies in the 10 ga hosp tank too because the 30 still isn't cycled with that big (5") Sohal skanking it up. I've read that they (clowns/gobies) can't take copper so I'll have to get them out. 
<Not as well>
Can they have ich with no symptoms?
<Mmm, yes>
Will I just be getting it back in the 110 when I re-sand and rock the 110 and add these fish back? 
<It is a possibility>
I will FW dip everything before I put them back. Need sage advice about these possible vectors for ich back into the 110 after drastic measures.
2) Will the copper trash the good bacteria in the 9-month-old wet/dry
(Amiracle Maxi Reef) so ammonia will get off the chart again with these two fish?
<Maybe... only way to tell is to try>
Should I run the Aquamedic T-1000 skimmer during the copper treatment?
<If you can do w/o it, you should>
The UV? (I read somewhere it is not a good idea).
<Only some types of chelated copper are removed readily by UV>
3) Is there anything else I can do short of running fresh water and bleach through the system, killing EVERYthing (fish and crabs excluded in hospital tanks) and starting the cycling process again?
<Hope, trust that the exercises you've engaged in have tilted the balance in favor of health/resistance in your/fishes favor, use cleaners, feed vitamins...>
Lessons learned:
1) The Kent Xtreme Garlic product didn't help much with this ich problem. I know you don't think much of the garlic oil idea but I have tried it all
(including Zoecon once/day) so I might give it a try as well. The tangs eat like hogs so getting it in them and not in the water is easy.
<Agreed>
2) The UV didn't do much. Purple tang must have gotten it back from the 110.
<Yes>
3) The purple tang may have the ich living in his skin happily until there is some stress and then it exits and makes the spots. When does the copper kill the bugs?
<Only in the free-living stages... trophonts mainly protected... can be poisoned, sloughed off on hosts, but this takes higher cupric ion concentrations... risky>
I read only in the swimming stage. So if it stays in the skin you'll have to treat the fish 5 times before it will be gone for good.
<Two weeks at tropical temperature should do it>
4) I am glad I have a RO system in place for my orchids because I used much water in these hospital tanks and 100's of pounds of salt as well. Also many copper tests as well as Ammonia, Nitrite and all the rest
Sincerely sorry about all the background info but I wanted you to know I have tried a few things and am getting sore, and sad that these beautiful fish are always in the basement.
<Do realize all... and do wish that folks in the industry will read of your and similar experiences.... and stop these parasite problems in the supply cycle... ridiculously easy and inexpensive to do so... and done so by excellent companies like Quality Marine, Tropic Marine Centre...>
Best regards, John ILG
<Be chatting my weathered friend. Bob Fenner>