Marine Ich 03/27/2008
Hey WWM Crew,
<<Hello, Andrew today>>
I seem to have an outbreak of Ich, as of now the ich is in the beginning stages and there are small white spots all over my pink skunk Clownfish's fins and there are several on his body. There are a few on my false percula clown and I cannot see any on my royal Gramma or my snowflake eel (Though it may just be because they have bright colors and the spots are hard to see). It is a reef tank with some small Zoanthids, a leather coral, and a branching hammer coral. I also  have an egg-bearing scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp and a small horseshoe crab along with 8 Astrea snails. The 30 gallon tank has been running for 6 weeks with no problems.
<<All the above in a 30 gallon tank? A bigger home is needed my friend. The best way to treat your Ich is to get the fish into a quarantine tank and treat with hypo salinity and allow the tank to go fallow of fish for 6 - 8 weeks. More information can be found in the following link and by reading the linked articles and FAQ's http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >>
My water parameters are fine and my sand bed is about an inch deep. My LFS recommended another cleaner shrimp to help with the infestation but I am not sure it would clear up the problem.
<<No, the best way to go>>
I really don't want to have to get a new tank for my fish so I turn to you to help me clear this problem up before any major damage has occurred. Are there any medications for a marine tank that contain no copper? Thank you for everything!
<<Do read on the above link, understand the ich parasite itself, the treatment. Hope this helps. A Nixon>>

Clownfish 911!! Ich 10/2/07
I recently bought a pair of percula clownfish, one was so stressed before even reaching my tank that it soon died of starvation from not eating after a week. (I tried everything to make him eat - changing his foods, providing tasty options...but no luck).
<Chances are he was more than just stresses, was most likely carrying a disease.>
The day he died, the other clown just hung around the bottom and didn't zip around the tank like she used to. The next day she seemed back to her old self only,
to my dismay, to begin a slew of medical problems. Shortly after her partners death she developed a mean case of Ich (so I began treatment immediately seeing as it was in my tank with Ruby-Reef).
<Worthless against ich, but probably decimated your biofilter.>
Just two days ago, I saw she had developed pop-eye over night.
<What are your water parameters?>
She was still eating very well so I decided to wait a day and see if it got worse or if any thing else would pop up to help me diagnose the cause of her pop-eye.
Well, this morning I woke up only to see it had gotten worse (more so her right eye than left). In addition, her right gill has swollen and there seems to be another bump on her right side in between her gill and eye. Lastly, her gills seem to have developed a frill edge to them. I am so confused on what is happening and I am worried that by tomorrow she will be gone. I am only half way through my ich treatment so I need a medication that will be safe to use in conjunction with the Ruby-Reef.
<Need to get a hospital tank going, there are no effective treatments that are reef safe.>
She is still eating but hangs around the top portion of the tank. Advice would be greatly appreciated ASAP before I loose her
:(.
My water readings were pretty normal...just a bit above 0 for nitrates but nothing that should stress her - everything else reads normal.
<What is normal? Numbers please.>
The temp is at 82 (it's normally around 78 but I was advised to raise it to quicken the Ich cycle to kill them all off) She only has one other tank mate (a royal gamma) and a feather duster with plenty of live rock in a 30 gallon. This is not a new tank and has been cycling for almost a year now so I am a bit confused.
Thank for your help in advance,
Sommer
Ps: also, on a side note, do you think that all these illness were
brought on by the loss of her partner?
<No, I am guessing both fish were sick to begin with, just took this one a little longer to start showing symptoms. This is why QTing any new additions is so important. What the Gramma closely too, it may now have contracted whatever the clowns were carrying.>
<Chris>

Percula Clown question... ick? Using WWM... reading?    9/25/07
Hey, I set up a saltwater tank.. 20 gallons. It has been cycled, I have 2 false percula clowns in it, 1 coral beauty
<Needs much more room than this>
some live rock and a cleaner shrimp. 2 days ago i noticed a white dot on 1 of the clowns, he was kinda hanging near the top of the tank and then all of a sudden seemed to be fine. This morning I wake up, and 1 of the clowns has the white dots all on its body, the other has a few and the coral beauty had a few dots on his fins.
<... not good>
This morning i raised the tank temp to 82 degrees and added extra salt to the tank.
<?>
I went to work, picked up some copper safe and garlic for the food. I heard garlic is good to mix with the food if a fish has ick.. true?
<... not a cure>
Anyway, I returned home 8 hours later, and now all the white spots are gone from all 3 fish.
<... cycled off... will be back>
I haven't used the copper safe, I would prefer not to unless necessary... do you think my fish had ick? If it was, i am sure the cleaner shrimp helped rid some of it, but will the extra salt and raising the temp do away with it also?
<... no>
Should I take any other course of action right now if the spots are not there?
Thanks in advance
--
.Matt Slattery.
<You need to read... and soon. Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... till you understand what you're up against... Move the Centropyge, stat., and get/use a chelated copper test kit...http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptchelcucures.htm
Bob Fenner>
Also... with my ick question..   9/25/07
there dots were here this morning, gone this afternoon.. but the fish have not been scratching or darting around... could it be stress.... not ick?
<...>
--
.Matt Slattery.
<Read. RMF>

Ich... reading   7/22/07
How can I treat ich on my clown fish if I don't have a quarantine tank?
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
RMF>

Reintroduction from HT, post Crypt  6/22/07
Dear Bob,
<Hello, but not Bob, Chris here this morning.>
Thanks again for helping me through my Ich crisis--one of my own making. I have a question about reintroducing my sole survivor to the display--a small gold stripe maroon clown. As you know, I treated him for 13 days with ionized copper. He never showed any signs of Ich but my other fish did. <Was probably still infected.> I pulled all out of the display (now finishing week 3 of fallow period) and placed them in HT for the copper treatment. <Good, keep the fallow going for at least 1 more week, preferably another 3 weeks.> It's been 10 days since I stopped copper treatment and the clown seems very health. <Good, they are pretty resilient little guys.>
No signs of Ich, eating well, acting well, etc., and hopefully he will remain that way until I place him back in the display. Which leads me to my question: At the time I move him from the HT to the display, I was considering administering a RidIch+ (formalin/malachite green) freshwater dip, but I'm really nervous about doing so because I know how toxic formalin can be. <To you as well as your fish.> Because (i) this clown never showed signs of ich, (ii) is doing well and (iii) the HT water was nuked with copper so I'm pretty sure nothing survived, would you recommend that I skip a formalin dip and instead go for a simple pH adjusted FW dip before introducing him into the display? <Yes, Methylene Blue added to the bath would not hurt either.> The latter is my preference/gut, but I wanted to know what you think. <We are in agreement here.> If you agree, about how long should the dip last assuming he's happy throughout? I've read everywhere that the dip should last anywhere from 2 minutes to 47 years, but was hoping for a refinement for this particular situation. <I would shoot for 7 to 10 minutes as long as doesn't appear too stress, which will not likely be a problem with clowns.>
Thanks.
Andy
<Welcome>
<Chris>
 

Blind Clownfish
Hi Guys,
<Cheers>
I was hoping you could provide some advice. I have an ocellaris clownfish that came down with what I think was a parasitic infection. (I had placed an infected flame angel in the main tank not knowing - it came down with ich or such and I lost it - had skin, eye symptoms). Yes, I will always quarantine a new fish from now on - learned my lesson (I'm new to marine fish/reef keeping). 
<no worries... it sounds like you have learned this important lesson a lot faster than most folks. I'm grateful to hear it>
Shortly after I removed the angel, the clown became ill. It did not show surface signs like the angel (skin, eyes, etc), but had white stringy feces and was behaving odd. Can't say for certain infections were related. 
<agreed... white stringy feces indicates an intestinal parasite/protozoan. Use Metronidazole (Flagyl) for this>
It would spasm and twitch at bottom of tank, not eating. I treated it with Coppersafe for 21 days in a hospital tank. 
<hmmm... copper is most only effective against Cryptocaryon white spot... not much else and certainly nothing internal>
After even just 5 to 6 days, it was looking good and eating fine so after the 21 days of treatment I placed it back into the main tank.
<could have been natural immunity just the same>
After about one week the symptoms came back worse than before. 
<are we talking about only stringy feces or was there a body symptom as well?>
I placed it back in the hospital tank and re-treated with Coppersafe. My local fish supply store said that no therapeutic monitoring is necessary with Coppersafe. 
<wow... that was a stinky pile of misinformation. Copper is indeed effective against common Ich, but only within a narrow range... a little bit too little is ineffective and a little bit too much is fatal to fish. Test kits must always be used with copper>
I followed the dosing directions exactly, very carefully. (I didn't dose the evaporation replacement water - believing that the copper was staying in the tank when the water evaporated. But of course I did re-treat any water change water.) 
<the mfg recommended dose is irrelevant because each tank has various amounts of calcareous media (rock sand gravel) that absorb copper...hence to need for bare bottomed tanks and testing with copper>
Also, do you know if Coppersafe is chelated or ionic? 
<chelated>
It appears to be chelated, I would say copper sulfate by the color. Anyway, after another 12 days of treatment with Coppersafe (21 days original, off a week while in main tank and back on 12 days) my clownfish is now blind. Maybe not completely blind, I believe it may be able to sense light, but can't see anything - running into tank walls, can't eat, etc. 
<yes... the copper was misguided and perhaps excessive. Hard to say without having tested.>
Swimming fast, being scared and confused. 
<I am very sorry to hear it>
Have you ever heard of Coppersafe doing this. 
<many overdosed meds can... blindness may be temporary and return slowly within months>
All other tank parameters were fine during the time frame. Could this have been caused by extended copper treatment? 
<more likely the level of copper and not the duration. 21 day treatments are the norm. I personally can't stand using copper because of its narrow range of efficacy (in application and in scope of pathogen kills)>
Or do you think may another problem. Well regardless of the cause, the advice I was looking for was how to feed the clown. 
<if it comes to the surface sensing food have a hanging specimen cup or large net handy and scoop the little bugger up and feed him in there... don't forget about him though! Return him after 15 minutes or so>
I thought about euthanizing it, but my local fish supply guy thought it could survive ok. 
<yes... perhaps, and the sight may return anyway>
It appears to be learning how to adjust a bit, but it hasn't eaten for 5 days (still fair in color and swimming well - no signs of original infection yet) By the way, I did an emergency 75% water change to dilute the copper the day I realized it was vision impaired. 
<very wise>
It obviously can't see the food. I trapped it in a net along the glass (easy to do, as to fact it can't see) and placed some fresh frozen food on a plastic wire and tried to get him to take it. I couldn't get him interested - very scared, even though he can't see - obviously knows it's trapped. Do you think eventually the hunger will over ride the nervousness and it will eat? 
<I do believe so...>
If you were in my position, what would you do? 
<I would work hard at trying to nurse it for weeks to a couple of months with hope for improved vision and self-support. If not by that time, euthanasia may be an option>
Any advice at all will be greatly appreciated. You guys do a great job on your website and email questions. Thanks so much! Bill Prevo
<best regards, Anthony>

True Percula Clowns
Good Morning WWM Crew,
I purchased 2 true percula clownfish (tank raised) on Saturday, and I currently have them in my 10 gallon quarantine tank before I put them in my 75 gallon tank with 100lbs live rock. I noticed a few white spots on one of them yesterday morning, so last night I started copper treatment with Cupramine. I lost 2 clownfish a few months ago to Cryptocaryon, so I want to get this treated quickly. I'm also in the process of lowering the spg to 1.018 and the temp is at 82. Is there anything else I should do?
<Many other things you could do depending on your perception of the severity of the infection; freshwater dips, formalin baths, daily water changes, medicated foods, etc.>
Should I be doing freshwater dips as well?
<They are helpful.>
I gave them a 5 minute FW dip with Methylene blue before they went in the Q tank. They seem to be eating fine so far (tetra flake and formula II flake soaked in Selcon). Also, I just noticed my copper test kit reads in mg/l, is there a way to convert this to ppm?
<Due to the simple beauty of the metric system, ppm and mg/l are the same thing.>
Thanks for your help! Dave Indianapolis, IN
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Ich
As promised, I have more questions. This time concerning ich.
In my main system (the 40 gallon) I had a clownfish that developed white spots. The other fish in the system (two small damsels) do not seem affected and all fish are still eating and swimming fine. I have two cleaner shrimp in the main tank. I noticed the spots last night and move the fish to my quarantine tank (a 20 gallon) with a specific gravity of about 1.021. I have a few questions about this disease and treating it.
Is this ich or some other disease?
<Maybe Brooklynellosis, as only the Clowns seem affected. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clndisfaqs.htm>
My plan was to raise the temperature slightly in both tanks and to dip the clownfish in a freshwater dip with copper sulfate for a period of time (several dips of about 5 minutes that are spread out in about an hour time).
Is this a good method of treatment?
<No>
I have live rock in both systems so would I be able to lower the SG any more (my main system also has other inverts)?
Should I do anything else to remove this disease?
How helpful would a UV system be in preventing this for later?
Thank you,
Kevin
<Please read through the WWM site re these questions, issues. The answers are there as are many co-factors you don't mention. Bob Fenner>

Clownfish, disease
Hello Mr. Bob
I've been looking around WWM for a few days now, I still have a couple of questions. I had a fish (Amphiprion clarkii) that, within one week, lost about one third it body weight, lost coloration to cloudiness, stopped eating, looked like its skin was peeling away, and was taking about 35-40 breathes every twenty second (that's higher than I'd ever heard of so I kept checking again and again but got the same numbers). Finally it died. I had given it a fresh water dip at the first signs of a problem. Through the whole ordeal I didn't notice any white specks until after it died. I took the fish to school and under a microscope could see very tiny white specks here and there on the fishes body. They were too small to be seen with the naked eye, but they were easy to spot with the microscope. I assume the disease/parasite is not Ick but rather Amyloodinium? The fish was the only fish in the tank. It had been in there about two weeks when all that happened. The tank had been running for a good while now. It is a 75 gal. I've had snails, crabs, a bulb tip anemone, mushrooms, and some star polyps. All the inverts are fine. I would like to get the inverts out of the tank and into another tank before I take any steps to rid the system of the parasite. Also, the tank has about 80 lbs of live rock. Is it possible to infect a another tank by moving inverts into it? I can live without the crabs and snails, but I would like to keep the anemone, mushrooms, and star polyps. I think I read that the infestation of another tank through the introduction of inverts would be from the parasites being attached to the "non-living hard surfaces" on/with the invert. If that  is the case, then I guess it wouldn't be possible to keep the snails, crabs, star polyps (attached to rock), or the mushrooms (attached to rock), right? On the other hand, would it be safe to pull the anemone off its rock and put it in a different tank? Is it okay to freshwater dip an anemone or any of those inverts? I have two tanks. My other tank is a little reef tank. The live rock for it had been previously taken from my now infected tank. So it may be infected too there aren't any fish in there right now). To find out, I was thinking of putting some kind of cheap "tester" fish like a damsel or maybe even a molly in the reef tank to see how it does. So can all fish get affected by the same diseases and parasites? Back to the big tank. I do want to completely rid the 75 gal tank of the parasite. I don't want to put copper in the tank. I want to use the tank as a spawning tank for clownfish and I've read that copper can cause sterility in clownfish. If Amyloodinium is the culprit, then is there any way of getting rid of it aside from completely drying out the system? I was getting ready to put some kind of small "flame or pygmy angel" type fish in the reef tank. Do you know of any examples of reef safe fishes that wouldn't be affected? If you're still awake, then thanks for your patience. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really enjoy the web site and your columns in FAMA. 
Thanks, Matthew Boehm
<OK Matthew, lets keep this simple. Please do not move anything nor freshwater dip your inverts. That is a good way to kill them. Some corals will tolerate very short dips, but snails, crabs, shrimp, etc. would be killed. Leave the tank empty of fish for one month and the parasites will die out. They require a host and without one will soon die. -Steven Pro>

SICK CLOWN
Dear Bob,
Recently, my true percula clown has gotten ick. Currently, he is in a 10 gallon quarantine tank, dosed with Cupramine copper. Its got a whisper
filter of adequate size, heater, a rock, one powerhead, and a 15 watt NO bulb. I have not measured the copper level, but my guess, from what I have
dosed, is around .7 or .8 PPM. He is getting better, at least it looks that way. But when I got home today, he was upside down, in the upper back corner
of the tank!!! He is still very much alive, but he is still upside down. He does still eat, but not if it is more than 2 or 3 inches below the surface.
I checked nitrate and nitrite, all fine, and I put ammonia neutralizer in daily, since I do not have a test for ammonia, and I cannot use carbon in my filter because of the copper. He will turn over, but not for very long, maybe a few seconds, then goes back to being upside down.
Question 1- Does this setup for a quarantine tank sound good?
Question 2- Could he be upside down because of the high copper levels? If not, then what?
Question 3- I have heard clowns are sensitive to copper treatments. Should I change to a different treatment, such as Clout or Rid-ick, both of
which are readily at hand?
Thanks for any help you can give, Ryan
>>
Yikes Ryan... things don't look/sound good. Do agree that Clownfishes (and other fishes that live in close association with invertebrates) are sensitive to copper... and I do hope that what you really are seeing is ich... a few other common clownfish parasite problems (e.g. Brooklynella) look similar symptomatically, but are not susceptible to copper treatment.
1) The quarantine set-up sounds okay.
2) The copper could indeed be mal-affecting the clown, but the overall stress and disease itself could account for the behavior as well.
3) Here's where I have to clobber you. Even with semi-sequestered formats of copper like Cupramine, you need to have/use a copper test kit. Re-read the products label and use instructions. It calls for a first day input of 1 ml. per ten gallons that will render a free copper reading of 0.25 ppm and a follow-up treatment at the same rate to give a reading of 0.50ppm. It has been my experience that this product will not effect a therapeutic effect unless it is at least at a 0.20 concentration or a treatment effect unless it is at a 0.30 ppm dose. Yours is way too low... in other words, the present concentration is not doing anything to treat the fish. The only way to tell how much copper (Cu++) you have in solution is a test kit.
    I would NOT switch to another medication. The Cupramine can/will do "the job" if it is ich, and the other "Med.s" would likely push the fish over the edge. If the fish is still alive, do lower the specific gravity over the next two days to 1.017, raise the Cupramine concentration to at least 0.20 and keep it there (by testing, re-addition of Cupramine). Do keep your eye on ammonia levels, changing water if you don't have, or want to invest in an ammonia test kit...
    You might benefit from reading the archived articles on copper use, marine fish diseases, Clownfishes on my wetwebmedia.com website. It's free. Bob Fenner

Disease question
HI Bob,
Happy Thanksgiving! I am a new aquarist and need some advice on my pink skunk clown fish. I have had my 10 gallon hospital tank set up for over a month now with 8.5 lbs live rock with one pink skunk clown fish and a purple Dottyback. Each fish is well adjusted and has their territories all mapped out. Each fish has been eating voraciously since I put them in the tank on 11/4.
<Sounds good... and am glad to hear the Dottyback's not being too mean to your Clown>
My water conditions have stayed consistent since I set up the tank. I have an AquaClear 200 powerfilter and a Hagen powerhead running. My PH has stayed stable at @8.4, temp a consistent 78 degrees, no ammonia or nitrites or nitrates. Salinity has stayed consistent at @1.024.
<So far, so good>
I have fed the fish Spirulina and frozen brine shrimp only once a day.
<okay>
For over a week I noticed that the clownfish has a tiny white spec on the edge of his caudal fin and one on the edge of his dorsal fin. I'm concerned that it may be ich but the fish is eating voraciously, swimming normally and there is nothing on his body. His pectoral fins are clear and his eyes are clear. He's breathing normally and behaving normally.
<I wouldn't become overly concerned... spots could be nothing... would not try to "treat" this chemically or with environmental manipulation at this point... But would avail myself of a cleaner... like a Lysmata Shrimp sp. if it will fit into your stocking plan>
At what point do I get concerned about ich. The Dottyback is completely fine. I am resistant to use copper as my water parameters are perfect and I do not want to use chemicals unless absolutely necessary. I have been testing the water every week to keep it in good shape so I'm not sure what to make of these two specs.
<I agree with your sentiment... and would try the cleaner, and a dip/bath procedure on moving the specimens to the main system... detailed on the www.wetwebmedia.com site>
Any guidance you could provide would be much appreciated.
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>

Clown fish
Mr. Fenner,
I have two clowns. A male and a female and they get along great. For about a week now I have been observing my female very closely. Near her belly and on the two lower fins closer to her gills I have noticed that she has white matter on her . She is very active moving sand and picking up larger pieces of coral to clear them from her anemone. The white matter (maybe ich ) seems to have come and gone this last week. I believe it maybe spreading but I have not seen it spread to a larger area or different area as of yet. I was wondering if I should keep monitoring the fish or try a fish water dip to control the problem if indeed their is one. Also, what procedures do I follow when doing a fresh water dip if needed.
Thank You, Jason Cohen
<If it were my tank, livestock I would not dip, nor "treat" this condition with chemicals, but definitely keep an eye on the situation... and likely add a cleaner organism (like a Lysmata Shrimp sp. if it will go in this system)... Please read over the "Cleaners" section and FAQs and Clownfish health FAQs on the www.WetWebMedia.com site where you'll also find notes on protocols for dips/baths for marines.
Bob Fenner>

Re: clown fish
Thank you Mr. Fenner for the advice. I will definitely watch for any change in the clowns condition. I would like to add the cleaner shrimp as you requested but I am not sure if it will be accepted in my reef system. I have the 2 clowns and one anemone, arrow head crab, watchman goby, 3 green Chromis, sally light foot, coral banded shrimp, and 18 hermits and snails.
If the creatures I have in my tank will not interfere with the cleaner shrimp than I will add one tomorrow from my local pet store with your acceptance.
Thank You, Jason Cohen
<Hmm, I share your concern... with the presence of all those other crustaceans... there might well be some negative interaction with the CBS, and do keep your eye on that Arrow Crab... it alone can/will get big enough to threaten your fishes (yes, they do eat fishes)... Perhaps a Cleaner Goby (genus Gobiosoma) would be a better choice. Images and more on the WWM site re. Bob Fenner>

Ich on clowns
Hi Bob,
I'm very new at this. . . I've been reading everything I can find on saltwater tanks since I set up my first 20 gallon and I have several questions. 
<Good>
First, my system: I have a Penguin BioWheel 170 filter and two lights - one regular fluorescent and one Actinic Blue - I want to have corals later. The tanks been cycling for just over two weeks with two tank raised percula clowns (I asked, and the LFS said two clowns could survive the cycle). 
<Hmm... stressful though...>
So far, they've done fine (sort of - I'm getting there). During the middle of my cycle I introduced a Berlin airlift protein skimmer (which I've since read is not the time to introduce a protein skimmer ? ). 
<Yes, generally better to wait till the system is completely cycled>
The first problem I encountered was off-the-chart high nitrites. At the suggestion of LPS, I used Bacter Plus to bring the nitrites down and today they're at .25 ppm. Side note - as nitrites are going down, I'm seeing more and more brown algae in tank. 
<Yes... opportunistic... with tank changes... will cycle out...>
I also thought some air bubbles might help oxygenate the water, so I added a bubble tube to the back (my own hypothesis - and actually, when it's on, they didn't gasp at the top at all).
<Many things possibly going on... and good to have the added aeration>
Yesterday, I noticed a fish scratching against the substrate and saw a few spots, which LFS said were probably ich. So I bought Quick Cure for 2 reasons: 1. I want inverts later and read that copper was toxic to inverts and hard to get out of tank once introduced (but then my filter, which the LFS recommended has a copper bag in it). . . and 2. The LPS highly recommended it. I removed the copper bag b/c
<Hmm, likely you mean activated carbon which removes copper... and LFS, "Livestock Fish Store">
quick cure bottle recommended it but now the only filtration/water movement I have is the BioWheel, protein skimmer, and bubbles - is that dangerous? Today was the second treatment with Quick Cure, I still see ich and fish are still scratching but it's only been 1 ½ days - I read on an earlier post today that you said Quick Cure could be toxic to fish, but I couldn't find the original post. . .
<This product is indeed quite toxic... and also may well have been unnecessary... Your Clowns might not have "ich" or any other parasitic agent...>
Please explain if you think I'm doing anything wrong or could do anything better.
I've gotten pretty attached to my clowns.
Many thanks, Laura
<Thank you for writing, and be assured I will help you. Please take the time to read through the "Clownfish" sections and associated FAQs files posted on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com and consider what you find there that applies to your current situation... as well as the "Marine Parasitic Disease", "Ich", "Copper Use"... other sections that interest you. At this point, I would cease the Quick Cure treatments and let your system come to a full cycle... else you are likely to overall cause your livestock more harm than good (Please also see "The Three Sets of Factors that Determine Livestock Health" section as well...). Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich on Clowns, forgot to mention
I wrote earlier about the new 20 gal. tank with .25 nitrites and ich (I'm using QuickCure). . . Forgot to mention that the temperature is 80 degrees F., the salinity 1.023, and the fish are still eating normally (voraciously, which is normal for them).
Don't know if that will help you diagnose my tank, but maybe. . . Any suggestions on how to rectify this amateur's problems would be most appreciated.
Many thanks, Laura
<When this system "settles down" cycle-wise, it may well be prudent to raise the temp., lower the spg to rid the fish of their apparent spots... not now. Bob Fenner>

Re: ich on clowns
Thank you Bob for your speedy reply. I'll definitely take your advice.
Since I last wrote, my clowns are acting worse. I'll definitely stop the QuickCure treatments,
<Best to... the active ingredient is... formalin... imagine having that in your eyes... on your skin...>
but can I put the carbon filter back in the tank? 
<Yes... I would>
I'm wondering if QuickCure says not to mix w/ Carbon or Charcoal because it will hurt the water quality or b/c it will neutralize the "medicine"?
<Yes... it absorbs the Quick Cure...>
I'm guessing it's the latter, but I want to be safe.
Thanks, Laura
<Be chatting my new friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Sick clowns
Hi Bob,
I wrote yesterday about the sick clowns. I've read just about all the posts you mentioned, put the carbon filter back in my tank, and have tried to just get things back to normal. But my fish are acting worse today. One is just hanging out at the top, then occasionally swimming lazily around. The other is hiding out by a shell. I still see white spots on both fish - though maybe not as many as yesterday - I hope that doesn't mean the ich (if that's what it is) has dropped off to reproduce.
<Yes... >
I'm wondering if I can do anything to help them. I know I shouldn't use QuickCure, but what about CopperSafe or some other product? My nitrites are steadily going down. Today they're between .25 and 0 ppm. Does this mean my tank is at the end of its cycle?
<Unfortunately... and this is why you should have been instructed/advised to wait on fish livestock... the copper, other materials, environmental manipulation will/would likely kill the Clowns at this point... and forestall or worsen the nitrogen lack-of-cycling situation...>
The only thing I could think of that I haven't tested is the alkalinity, which I don't know much about - Today I tested it and it's between 1.1 and 1.7. My pH is 8.2.
<This is low... and can be slightly elevated by the addition of some baking soda... sodium bicarbonate... Please just mix a heaping teaspoon in some system water in a glass and add daily... safe and a help here... after the system is cycled (no, zero, zip nitrites), I would start to slowly lower spg and elevate temp... a thousandth and a degree F. respectively per day... hopefully this will be soon enough to save your clowns... in the meanwhile do increase aeration if you can, and extend the "light period" of this system to about fourteen hours per day... this will help to speed along nitrification establishment and help your Clowns>
If you have any suggestions for how I can help my fish, I would be sooo appreciative. Do you think they're on in really bad shape? as in near-death, or just stressed?
<Likely very stressed... yes.>
Thanks, Laura
<Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, Quarantine Tanks/sick clown
Bob,
Unfortunately the one damsel that I have in my quarantine tank died last night. He had spent the last 2 days at the surface breathing rapidly and not eating, and of course was peppered with small white dots. I'm assuming his infection was beyond the scope of being cured in time with the Coppersafe that I'm using. Should I have dipped him 4 days ago before putting him in the hospital tank?
<Hard to say, assess, but it is not likely this would have helped...>
This morning, the smaller of the two clowns was covered with small white spots, and the larger had about 2 dozen on each side. Both ate ok and seemed fine. The smaller clown that was more infected to begin with also had a small (1/8" diameter) black spot on it's side towards the back of the body. Over the last 2 days the spot has seemed to grow, and now looks like a scab that is about to fall off. It actually projects beyond the body at least a millimeter! What could this be, and should I be treating with something other than Coppersafe? I am guessing this is some type of secondary infection.
<Its own body reaction as well...>
I am feeding the fish in quarantine a small amount of flake food once a day, and planned on every other feeding soaking the food in Selcon. I am keeping the copper at 1ppm because of the clowns, but must admit I was surprised to see them both with white spots this morning when they didn't have any yesterday. Should I dip them, or maybe ever so slightly raise the copper to nearer 1.5ppm? 
<No to the dip unless you are moving them elsewhere... and do get/use a test kit that will render you a measure of free cupric ion... this is all that is important... or do the calculation provided by the manufacturer to come to this value from their chelated product>
Is it normal for there to be a cycle or two of parasites that survive the first few days of treatment? 
<Yes... very astute of you... especially in "late caught" situations where multiple generations of parasites have had time to reproduce asynchronously>
I tried to get a picture with a digital camera of the smaller clown's black spot, but didn't have any luck!
By the way, the two damsels are fine so far.
Once again, any help on what to do for these sick fish is greatly appreciated!
Kris
<I know how hard all of this is/can be... stay the course. Bob Fenner>