Quin Sci Use F

FAQs on Quinine Compounds: Science, Rationale, Use

Much safer, more efficacious than copper, formalin...

Re: Transship Contacts...
CP Assay 6/7/16
Bob,
<Nick>
It has been a while, but things are going along nicely. I am purchasing a Colorimeter, Spectrometer or Spectrophotometer for the store. I want to be able to test for Chloroquine Phosphate. I contacted Hach and they
are unsure what I need to test for.

I know one or more of these devices can test this for me. Can you put me in touch with someone that could help me out with testing for CP?
<See the folks that offer it for sale? : http://www.nationalfishpharm.com
I might make a quick trip to LA to meet some vendors next week, just watching the weather here (storms
in the gulf) and make sure Southwest has some flights available.
Thanks,
Nick
<Or a reference librarian in a college that has a life science dept. Bob Fenner>

Re: purple tang with spots after 10 weeks of Chloroquine? 1/15/15
Thank you Bob, for helping to relieve my panic. I've been giving it time before following up.
I chose the option of not stressing the purple tang further by trapping him.
<Good>
He did go through a ParaGuard bath in the transition, just to be safe.
The good news, most spots were gone the following morning. I noticed that the vast majority followed the lateral line and were primarily on one side of this fish. I will follow up again if there are changes, but so far, fish that have been in the DT for 4 days are clean.
On a side note, I've been looking for an appropriate venue to place some data from an earlier attempt at treating my DT with Chloroquine that I think could be of value (though it failed)
<Send it on for posting on WWM>
First, I am a PhD chemist with years of experience studying the physical and chemical behavior of drugs and am considered an expert in the field (real name is XXXX). I got permission from my boss to run a few samples from my tank on an HPLC (High performance liquid chromatography) to quantitate the drug concentration at certain time points, though I would
prefer that my identity not be disclosed anyway (everybody has people willing to take things out of context to make them look bad for self promotion in business these days). If you can agree not to use my real name,
<Sure>
I think the data would be useful to aquarists in general. They include degradation rates, effect of skimming and UV sterilization on rate of drug loss, time saturation of carbon placed in the sump, initial drug loss rate after first dose, and the presence of multiple degradates of the drug with similar UV/vis spectra that will lead to erroneous readings if using a spectrometer without chromatography to separate the components.
Sadly, I can also provide failures from returning corals to the tank too soon after treatment ended. I now believe the minimum time to return corals should be one month, with multiple 30-40% water changes to remove components that may not stick to carbon (the structure of known metabolites/degradates may be less able to stick to carbon, and may need water changes to remove.) The study does not have the scientific rigor to publish in a peer reviewed journal due to the limited number of samples I was able to negotiate, and again, even if it was, I wouldn't want to broadcast to my colleagues that my boss had let me do this.
Let me know.
-Jules
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Marine Ich Treatment -- 10/22/11
Quinine sulphate was easier to obtain so that's what I will use. Although I see that you prefer the Chloroquine. In your opinion would there be an adverse reaction in dosing quinine if there is still cu in the water
<Already answered>
(I am in the process of removing it). I found no information about mixing the two and I do apologize if it has been posted

Chloroquine Phosphate to Kill Algae 8/6/11
WetWeb Crew,
<BW/RA>
I have a 300g Fish Only system and maintain nitrates at 5ppm and phosphates at about 0.05ppm using PHA biopellets.
I run low light levels but do have some brown algae that grows in time.
<So?>
I usually remove all rocks and artificial corals and bleach/wash to remove light brown algae. But this of course is a hassle to repeat every couple of months.
<Again...>
I did have an Ich breakout due to a new fish (which was QT, but still had Ich). I used Quinine Sulfate successfully to treat the Ich and have not had any further issues(reported to you earlier this year). I used 8 Tbls/300 gal in my system at one week intervals twice with a 25% water change between them.

One of the side benefits of this was the elimination of the brown algae completely!
<Really?>
So, I am trying to determine if either Chloroquine Phosphate or Quinine Sulfate can be used on a routine basis to eliminate the brown algae.

I understand that CP is somewhat less stressful compared to QS from some internet posts (but can't believe everything on internet, right).
Here is a post on Reef Central about this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1467116
Goemans mentioned this in an article some time back according to the posts in this thread.
I would like to try the CP, but need to know dosage. ie Tbls/XX gals and how often..water changes?
<Again, I don't want to encourage you here. Read instead re other approaches. See WWM re>
Anyone try this with success, and of course affects on fish? I have no corals or inverts.
Thanks,
Regal Angel
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Chloroquine Phosphate to Kill Algae 8/6/11
WetWeb Crew,
<BW/RA>
I have a 300g Fish Only system and maintain nitrates at 5ppm and phosphates at about 0.05ppm using PHA biopellets.
I run low light levels but do have some brown algae that grows in time.
<So?>
I usually remove all rocks and artificial corals and bleach/wash to remove light brown algae. But this of course is a hassle to repeat every couple of months.
<Again...>
I did have an Ich breakout due to a new fish (which was QT, but still had Ich). I used Quinine Sulfate successfully to treat the Ich and have not had any further issues(reported to you earlier this year). I used 8 Tbls/300 gal in my system at one week intervals twice with a 25% water change between them.

One of the side benefits of this was the elimination of the brown algae completely!
<Really?>
So, I am trying to determine if either Chloroquine Phosphate or Quinine Sulfate can be used on a routine basis to eliminate the brown algae.

I understand that CP is somewhat less stressful compared to QS from some internet posts (but can't believe everything on internet, right).
Here is a post on Reef Central about this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1467116
Goemans mentioned this in an article some time back according to the posts in this thread.
I would like to try the CP, but need to know dosage. ie Tbls/XX gals and how often..water changes?
<Again, I don't want to encourage you here. Read instead re other approaches. See WWM re>
Anyone try this with success, and of course affects on fish? I have no corals or inverts.
Thanks,
Regal Angel
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine Phosphate to Kill Algae 8/9/11
Bob Fenner,
<Pygoplites>
Thanks for the reply and I understand your reluctance to suggest CP's use for algae control.
I also asked Lance Ichinotsubo about this and here is his reply......
<Ahh!>
Sorry for the late reply, but I just found your message in my junk mail box.
Indeed, I have used Chloroquine to control algae in a few fish-only systems, with good success. I have used a one-time dose of 10 ppm (38.5 mg/gal) on up to 20 ppm (77 mg/gallons) with no ill-effects on the fish or the system.
As a result, the majority of the algae just disappeared over a few days.
In such a case, I would say treating once every two to three months is acceptable; however, do monitor water quality and fish behavior, just to be safe.
<Well-stated as usual>
You mentioned that you have no corals or inverts- but what about live rock?
If you have live rock, that would change things, since there would be Chloroquine-sensitive organisms in and on the live rock.
<Yes; assuredly>
You can obtain the Chloroquine from Fishman Chemicals. They seem to have the best prices, that I have found.
Best Regards,
Lance Ichinotsubo
Captive Seas Aquariums
Coral Springs, Florida
<Hey Lance. See you later this week at the second fish health conference in Maine. And thank you Regal, for sending this along. BobF>
Regal Angel

Chloroquine Phosphate... Use, photo-degradation 8/7/11
Bob, Re post: CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE for Crypto 7/15/11 & photosensitivity
Have been reading the CP posts and spotted one that has spurred me to write this note!
I have been using this med for 2+ years now, both at home and in a commercial QT setting, and can say that I believe this compound is not fail-safe.

Have seen a large outbreak of crypt appear on fishes in QT after 3 weeks of treatment with CP. This is after strict dosing with water changes on the correct days. The only media in the system was artificial sponges and plastics, no rock or sand at all. These tanks were crowded, however.
One factor which could point to this is that they were in a room which was busy with people and room lights during the day. Even though the tanks themselves were not lit, I believe it is possible this was enough light to deteriorate the compound sufficiently to make it ineffective.
<Mmm, possibly>
We have had CP successes in this system as well though, with the room lights on as normal, but with much lower fish loads.
A question: Is it possible that the med can get 'used up' like others with many fish present? Or is it just because more fish = more vectors for parasites. Or both?
Most successes with CP have been with a light fish load, in a mostly darkened room, (just a desk lamp in a corner of the room on a timer to keep a sense of 'day and night' for the fishes). Under these conditions for Protozoans a two week treatment seems to be long enough, not the four week one suggested by Goemans et. Al. Have used this successfully with Volitans and Radiata Lions as well, so suspect no particular sensitivity with these species, although random deaths have/ do occur, seemingly for no 'apparent' reason other than the CP, and with the usual suspects... the sensitive ones. Thus the two-week regimen rather than four if the fishes look clear.
CP seems to be particularly effective against Brook, combined with a single 5 min freshwater/ formalin dip pre-QT.
Every time I have used CP it has 'knocked' the biological filter somewhat so that ammonia is readable after treatment. Thus, I consider the claims for this compound to 'not harm beneficial bacteria' to be incorrect, and ammonia monitoring to be essential. However, the bacteria levels do recover in time to full strength with the CP present.
As a side note, I have also used the 'CP medicated food recipe' in my reef tank successfully with no harm to invertebrates that I have been able to determine.
Simon.
<Thank you for this valuable, hard-won input. You will have saved MANY headaches for folks, as well as fishes lives. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE for Crypto 7/20/11
Thanks Bob. One last thought. I think I am going to fallow this tank to get the crypto out. Has anyone looked at doing fallow with CP in FOWLR tanks?
<Not as far as I'm aware>
Seems like it could guarantee eradication since you could add significantly more CP to the system if you wanted to with no live stock.
<Don't know how folks would "filter out"/control so many variables that come to mind...>
Would this decrease the time?
<Would what decrease w/ time? The presence, viability/pathogenicity of disease causing organisms in the absence of hosts? The presence of CP? Yes. B>
Adam
Re: CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE for Crypto 7/20/11
Perhaps you keep the CP to 20mg/L instead of increasing the dose. But I would think you would be able to cut the standard fallow period of 10-12 weeks by some degree. Too bad there isn't a good way to make sure the crypto is gone as I would love to test this to see how long it take.
<Mmm, yes... I've been involved in a few college studies w/ trying to test such... Getting and keeping alive/viable parasites of various sorts is difficult; let alone assessing the effect/s of any treatment moda... Double blind tests are no good when all cultures fail. Cheers, BobF>
Thanks for all the info!

Re: re: Good morning..... CP poisoning 3/15/11
Hey Bob, regarding Chloroquine Phosphate dosing I went ahead and checked out Ed Noga's book like you suggested. I am experiencing very strange behavior from all 3 of my fish with the 40mg per gallon dosage. My PB tang is breathing so fast I can't even keep track of counting the speed of his breathing rate.
<I'd change out about half the water, stat!>
My flame angel and hippo tang are swimming weird and not eating. None of these fish have any signs of parasites but I am only on my sixth day of treatment (2 doses). My levels seem to be ok and I weighed the CP out with a beam scale that measures grains (and converted milligrams to grains). Noga didn't state much in his book regarding this type of behavior to this compound. Did you ever see this?
<Yes; toxicity>
I don't want to kill these fish and I am frustrated. Should the fish be acting and swimming kind of strange under treatment with CP....or any strong Med for that matter? Your input would be appreciated, thanks.
Jason
<Do this water change now. BobF>
Re: re: Good morning..... CP tox. 3/16/11
Ok.....done. I have charcoal running also. This happens way too much with the quinine compounds. When this happened to my last flame angel he was never the same after that. Always swam sluggish and just always seemed tired. Does this toxicity do permanent damage to my fish or will it heal in time?
<I hope not... Might I ask, are you sure re the volume of water here? That is, are you taking into account the real tank dimensions, sans displacement from other objects? It's quite common for folks to "assume" that the gallonage is about the same as the "model #" (for want of any other descriptor)... Most tanks are surprisingly short of their understood gallonage... hence too easy overdosings. B>
Thanks Bob
Re: re: Good morning..... CP dis use 3/16/11
Yes, when I first bought the tank I used five gallons buckets to fill it bare and came up with 17 gallons.

I only have a small amount of live rock in there and it's bare bottom. So I treated for 16 gallons. I read on reef central to do a double dosage during your first dose

so I can't imagine I overdosed if the fish can withstand a double dose. I hope the toxicity didn't do any permanent damage.
Re: re: Hey Bob 2/22/11
Hey Bob, good morning. I am just following up with you regarding CP. I finally finished my final dose and my ammonia has spiked to 2.0....my fish are all half dead. I think I may have overdosed. I dosed 40mg per gallon but added a little extra by mistake.
<Yikes>
Does this mean my year and a half old cycled tank is going to have to start from square one?
<Not likely. B>
Is this like having a brand new tank without being cycled? I've been adding live bacteria and doing water changes hoping for the best.
Thanks
Re: CP over/re-dosing 3/27/11
Oh, and I forgot to tell you regarding dosing of Chloroquine phosphate.
I discovered through experimentation that the CP does not need to ever be redosed after the first.
<Mmm, I'll have to look. Thought I'd expressed this sufficiently on WWM>
After five days after the second dose my fish would overdose (rapid breathing, erratic swimming, discoloration etc.).
This happened three times in a row with several different rounds of fish.
Now I dosed once for 10 days and fish are great and parasite free...for now, we will see. CP is so new I didn't expect you to know much about it but Dr. Fishman at fishman chemicals said not to do more than one dose because of actual overdosing. Figured id let you know that and it would be beneficial to pass that on.
Cheers
<Thank you for this. B>
Re: re: 3/28/11
Sure anytime. It's amazing how the other two times immediately after the second dose I had an ammonia spike at 2.0....BOTH times. And all of those fish are now dead. So, one dose (at least here in Philadelphia) is enough.
<Acknowledged. B>

Re: Cupramine and Quinine Sulfate 3/16/11
Follow-up to the use of Quinine Sulfate.........
I sent an email to Dr. Brian Aukes as follows and received a reply:
----------------------------------
I used the 1/4 tsp/10g approach for two 5 day treatments with a 25% water change.
No Ich since!
btw, does the QS kill the cyst stage or only the stages free swimming and on the fish?
Thanks,
Bob
-------------------------------
Return email:
No, it kills the cysts as well. Quinine is the best Ich treatment I have ever come across.
Best regards,
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhD
c/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals
---------------------------------------
So, my question for you is.....
From your Quinine (Sulfate, etc) related Marine Ich medications experience, can you verify from research, user experience that these compounds do kill the cyst stage (and therefore all stages) of Ich?
Or is the only source of this Dr. Aukes?
Thanks, look forward to your reply,
Bob
Cupramine and Quinine Sulfate 3/16/11
Crew,
<Howsit?>
I have a 300g Saltwater DT (FO) that I have been treating with Cupramine for Marine Ich.
I have maintained the Cu at 0.5-0.7ppm for 2 months and still notice some Crypt on a few fish. I moved these fish to a separate 25g QT and treated with Crypto Pro... 5 days and the Ich is GONE!
<Ah good>
Now I would like to treat the 300g tank.
Q. Can I add the Crypto Pro (Quinine Sulfate) to the 300g that has the Cupramine already in it. (It would/will take a long time to rid the tank of Cu via water changes, and Cuprisorb).
<W/o fish in it? Yes>
The fish remaining in the tank are free of Ich but I want to make sure the Ich is gone before I get rid of Cu in it and move fish to the tank.
<They should be removed really, but worth the try>
I would plan to add the 1/4 tsp per 10g and change 25% water every three days with the Quinine Sulfate.
Any chemists around?
<Mmm, am an old H.S. teacher one>
<http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile
< http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3595>>
&u=3595>;
Regal Angel
http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=21
<http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=21
<http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3509>> &t=3509>; &t=3509
<Bob Fenner>
Thank you for this. BobF

Poor Tang. Hippo hlth. 3/4/10
Hello,
My Hippo Tang seems to be having some sort of parasite problem. On his side is what basically looks like a white head pimple (appeared within 24 hours), almost like something attached itself to him or came out of him.
<Just one such spot? Don't worry>
He is on the rebound (Hooray!) from an HLLE issue, which the folks at WWM graciously helped me (and him) out with solving, Thank You.
At first I freaked out when I saw the "zit" and started to lower the salinity, but then decided against putting him under any excess stress that may send him into an HLLE downward spiral.
<Yes>
I am fairly sure it isn't ich, as it doesn't look like a grain of sand and as far as I can tell there is only one maybe two (could be starting) "zits". Appetite and behavior are not affected.
I can't find any good images of flukes to compare, so I turn to your expertise.
<Not a trematode...>
I should mention one important yet embarrassing piece of information.
While I wasn't home, a family member introduced a new fish to the system.
They proudly told me how they acclimated it and made sure it could live with its fellow tank mates (it was a fish I was looking into purchasing).
Sadly, no quarantine, my heart sank.
The new fish doesn't have any symptoms or sign of disease, so maybe the timing is coincidental.
I have a ten gallon quarantine tank that will not house all of the fish (Hippo Tang, 2 Clowns, 2 Firefish, and a new scooter blenny). If they need medication (only the Hippo Tang has "zits", should I just medicate the main tank, while moving my live rock, shrimp, and snails to the quarantine?
Thank you
Adam

Re: Poor Tang -- 3/6/10
Hello,
Thank you for such a speedy reply.
The disease has progressed on my Hippo Tang and it almost definitely looks like Ich now (White dots in various locations on his body).
I purchased Mardel CopperSafe,
<... see WWM... I don't suggest copper med.s use on/w/ Acanthuroids>
but am having second thoughts on using it (I have not yet).
Where the ten gallon Qt tank is so small, I would have to treat the main tank.
<Definitely a No... don't do this>
Which would effect the entire system, including beneficial organisms I cannot see.
I would like to attempt non chemical treatment.
I have already turned the heat up, and am ready to start lowering salinity.
Do agree that this is the best course of action?
<Mmm, Quinine/s... see ...>
Also would you recommend moving live rock, shrimp, and snails to the QT will using such a treatment (I also have three polyps (of some sort) that keep dividing, perhaps them too)?
Thank You
Adam
<Keep reading... and soon. B>

Re: Poor Tang 3/10/10
Hello,
My Blue Hippo Tang still has ich, though with improvements in breathing and activity.
I returned the copper medication, good thing I had second thoughts on using it.
I did purchase Kordon Ich Attack, and have been treating the display tank for four days (along with a temperature increase).
<What do you think of this (alternative medicine) product?>
I feel foolish for thinking that such a amazing product could exist. It is true to its word in not effecting inverts and allowing for steady water parameters. The lack of spike in ammonia probably indicates that the product isn't even killing other pests (worms) in my tank.
<Likely so>
I am going to finish out the directed dosage though, as while no cure something I am doing is helping my Tang.
I have also pumped the fish's diet full of vitamins in hopes of boosting immunities. I have read garlic can help, but I must disagree, I think it only acts as an attractant.
<Okay>
I am in the hunt for an affordable 55 gallon QT tank, hopefully it will suffice for my Tang, 2 clowns, 2 Firefish, and scooter blenny.
If I still don't have a QT big enough and the Tang still has a bad infection of ich after organic treatment, I am going to have to medicate the display tank with non organic medication. I know it is a really bad thing to do and you already said definitely not, but I can't just watch my fish die, he is truly part of the family.
<... this runs contrary to your statements re not dedicating resources for it/their care>
I have read that if treatment to a display tank is a must, the drug of choice is Quinine (I believe you also recommend using it, only in QT).
<Chloroquine Phosphate is my/the current "genie in a bottle" here... But should be administered in "bare" hospital settings>
Also I think it is the best choice for my Tang.
I have seen some brands like Aquatronics contain Quinine, but with malachite green. Is this okay?
Do you recommend a brand?
<No, but some sources... read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
I will keep researching before doing anything "crazy", giving up is not an option.
thank you
Adam
<And you, BobF>

Re: Poor Tang, & Quinine f' 3/22/10
Hello,
I wanted to give you an update on my ich situation.
I searched all my local (and some a long drive away) marine fish specialty stores for any medication containing quinine. None of the stores had the medication (even the ones that normally carry it).
I then found National Fish Pharmaceuticals (mentioned on your fine website) and talked with an extremely helpful gentleman. With his recommendation I purchased Crypto-Pro.
Kordon Ich Attack treatment was suspended and a large water change combined with normal filtration and protein skimmer was administered.
After filtration of Kordon ich attack the skimmer was shut off and carbon was removed.
Live rock, snails, polyps, shrimp, and hermit crabs were moved to a separate (already cycled) tank.
Following instruction from the gentleman on the phone and not the instructions on Crypto-Pro I administered the product.
Today is day seven after the initial treatment and all fish are looking great and water parameters are where they should be.
I am on the fence to administer a 'just-in-case' dose tomorrow.
<Okay, though will comment (for browsers esp.) that such is generally unnecessary>
As a precaution everything removed from main tank will be kept in the separate tank for a few more weeks, I don't want to risk any parasite living on the live rock or perhaps some infected water re-entering the main tank.
A large water change followed by smaller water changes and normal filtration and skimming will be run for at least some time to ensure removal of medication.
Thank you for all the advice, you and the rest of the team run a superb service.
Adam
<Thank you Adam... for this careful, well-thought out addenda. Life to you. BobF>

Ich: Dosing main tank again. 2/3/2010
Hey Crew,
<Hi again Aaron.>
Well I'm back with more questions. Again, I have ich in my system.

I am treating in my display with Cupramine.
<We've been over this before. Treating the main tank is a very bad idea unless you are treating with quinine. Copper is only going to kill the free swimming stages of the parasite.>
I know, not the best idea. I just don't have the ability to set up a big enough quarantine. I have taken all my rock out but I do still have substrate in the tank. I have been treating for about three weeks now and this darn ich is not going away. My substrate at first had absorbed some of the copper so it was a battle to keep the levels where they should be.
<Typical, which is why it is recommended to treat in a bare bottomed tank.>
For the last week to week and a half they measure within range. Could this be a resistant strain? Have my levels not been therapeutic long enough?
<If you are treating the main tank with copper, yes, it can take weeks http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
All of my fish are eating good and for the most part acting normal. Every other time I have used Cupramine it has cleared it up in no time.
<It cleared up on the fish, the parasite is still in your tank.>
Just don't get it? I was thinking possibly another parasite of some sort.
But wouldn't the Cupramine eradicate it as well? I have a few copper sensitive fish in the tank and don't want to expose them any more than I have to. Without the possibility of quarantine what would you guys say is my best attack method?
<Again, quinine.... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm >
Thank you again for your expert advice on this. Without a lfs in the area with a knowledgeable staff I have nowhere else to turn.
<MikeV>

To medicate or not to medicate (while in quarantine)? 2/1/2010
Good morning Crew -
<Good afternoon Chris>
After a long, unsuccessful battle with crypt a few months back, I'm in the slow process of restocking my tank. I've read and researched, asked questions and am doing whatever I can to not make the same mistakes I made the first time around. The end result is that I've got a few new quarantine tanks in the basement (one each for fish, inverts/algae, corals) and I've become a bit of a QT Nazi, for lack of a better description.
<Yes, but whereas the Nazi's were bad, quarantine is definitely good!>
There are dozens of techniques/methods for acclimating new arrivals (dips, baths, etc.) and a host of procedures for quarantining / treating all of the different critters that will someday make themselves at home in my living room, and differences range from the benign to the extreme
<yes they do>.
I've taken what I believe the be the best information from all of the different sources I've read, and have acclimation and QT procedures for fish, mobile inverts, sessile inverts; all of which are manageable for me, within the confines of my available space/time/resources, and, I believe, give me the best chance of not introducing another deadly and/or destructive organism into my tank.
<It sounds like you have taken a lot of time and effort to learn all of this which is to your credit and will be to the benefit of the creatures that you keep>.
There's one part of the QT process that I'm unclear on, however, that I'd like another opinion on.
<Ok, but be advised that all you will get is my opinion. You must come to your own conclusions with reading, learning and experience>
After doing any dips/baths I feel necessary upon inspection of new arrivals/purchases, once the animal is in quarantine, should I treat it if I see no obvious signs of any disease?
<For invertebrates I would not, but for fishes I personally treat all with Chloroquine Phosphate. This viewpoint is not shared by all however, there are other, equally valid, courses/ actions>.
I'm a big fan of 'if its not broken, don't fix it' but I've been told that I'm playing with fire by not using copper/formalin/malachite green or something other for unseen crypt parasites, or hyposalinity and increased temps for crypt and any other potential fish-killers.
<Yes, but with the advent of C.P. I feel that many concerns about unnecessarily medicating fishes are negated>.
Then there's flat-worm exit for corals, interceptor, fluke-exit, etc. etc.
<Yes, there are'¦.>
For now, my thinking is that the fishes have been through enough already when they get to my house. I dip (m. blue or iodine), then just maintain good, clean, stable water conditions and watch for disease (or unwanted inverts riding along with corals) in quarantine.
<This is a perfectly valid procedure, I use a freshwater dip before QT myself>
If nothing turns up over the course of 35 days, I acclimate to main tank water, introduce to the reef, and enjoy with the family. <Yes> If something warrants further attention while under observation, needs medication more drastic measures, I deal with it as it comes. Am I okay with this line of thought, <Yes, I think you are> or should I really employ some sort of chemical warfare against unseen enemies during the quarantine period?
<Well, there are no rules here. IMO with the more hardy fishes there is no reason not to use C.P. It is your choice with the more sensitive ones, and with fishes that do not stand well to protracted QT procedures (for example Ctenochaetus Tangs are not good survivors). As long as you are using a QT tank and watching for anything unusual then you will avoid most problems, whether or not you resort to 'chemical warfare'>
Thank you,
<No problem>
Chris
<Simon>

28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 1/29/10
Well, my aquarium has ICK and I can't find proper advice about how to handle this particular and urgent situation.
<Ok, let's see if we can help>
The problem is, as I understand all the fish must be placed in quarantine for 8 weeks until the main tank becomes 99% ICK free.
<Yes, dependant on severity and situation>
I have an assortment of 10 fish. Copperband Butterfly, 2 black and white clowns, 2 Anthias (I think Bartlett's), 1 Royal Grammas, 1 Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Bluestreak Wrasse, 1 Diamond Goby, 1 Randall's Goby.
<Hmmmm, some of these fishes may not fare well with a prolonged QT period>
I am not sure whether to go with copper or hypo, but am currently leaning towards hypo.

I tried garlic, both in the tank and soaked in food.
<Won't work>
Also tried No-Ick.
<In-tank medication? No good IMO>
Those attempts haven't solved the problem, although they did take up valuable time. Now I am running out of time.
The Gramma is the worst. Still eating, but appears to be losing scales and I can see the discomfort and scratching. The butterfly is the next most adversely affected. I can't see Ick on the others, but the Anthias and Wrasse are scratching.
<They are all infested, mostly in their gills where you can't see the skin reaction to the parasite>
I understand from WWM that Gobies and Blennies cannot take long periods in quarantine. Especially sand sifters.
<This is a difficult and trying time. These decisions and actions can easily result in the death of fishes, especially sensitive ones>
But I still need to keep them out of the main display for 8 weeks.
<Yes you do, in fact Noga suggests 3 months is necessary, but this is too long a QT period for most fishes by far>
I am hoping for advice on how to quarantine all for 8 weeks, with no substrate,
<Very carefully, in as large a QT tank as possible. Ammonia is the killer here, as long as you can keep the fishes feeding well, and keep TOTAL ammonia to zero (or at least as low as 0.25 temporarily at first) this CAN be done. However, this requires extreme effort on your part and is a very stressful time, trust me I know>.
or do I take the chance and quarantine the Gobies and Blenny for 2-4 weeks, or for as long as they can take it, and then put them back in the main tank?
<No, you will put back all of your hard work if you do this. I would use Chloroquine Phosphate in your QT tank, with some sponges (inert) in a canister or other large filter. I would purchase some of this fancy 'instant-nitrifying bacteria-in--a-bottle' stuff -- Hagen's 'cycle' is the one I have used successfully (Check the expiry dates) -- and keep pouring this stuff in over the first two weeks of treatment to help build up a biological filter. Feed sparingly and test ammonia twice daily for the first two weeks, when you are happy with the ammonia long term, increase feeding, and test ammonia once a day after. Use water changes where you have to. DO NOT cease feeding, as some fishes will refuse to eat afterwards if you do this. This is why this is difficult to manage>.
How can the Diamond Goby survive even a few days in the no substrate hospital tank without satisfying its nature to constantly sift sand?
<hmmm, you could add some new dry sand to the QT after two weeks of CP treatment if you like. There has also been some success with using this med in the presence of a substrate but doing this is a bit 'hit-and-miss' as far as I understand. Maybe other crew members might know more about this, am copying into the main 'in-box' here>.
The other problem is my currently available hospital tank is only 29 gallons and I am pretty sure this is too small?
<Yes, by far - there is a good chance that some of your fishes will die. The danger is that when your fishes go into QT they will refuse to feed, or bully and stress each other in the confined space. Another danger is that the feeding itself plus the excretion from the gills will produce ammonia that will kill them. Doing massive water changes in such a small setting will stress the fish further, especially if they are daily. My advice is to purchase a larger QT tank>.
I certainly am amazed and appreciative of all that you do for the world of aquarium enthusiasts. I have learned a tremendous amount from WWM.
<Well, that's great Peter and so have I! A plug for the use of quarantine BEFORE introduction for all livestock is appropriate here, and although my opinion differs from that of other crew members on this, I believe that all fishes should be quarantined with the prophylactic use of C.P.>.
Thanks,
<No problem Peter. If you go this road then diligence is required here, beware of complacency as this will kill your fish as surely as anything else. Please write back for more help with this if you need it, I fully sympathise with what you are going through and am more than willing to help further>.
-Peter
<Simon><<Well-done Simon. BobF>>

Re: 28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 1/30/10
<Hello Peter>
Very, very much appreciated. I am amazed at the quick response.
<That's what we're here to do>
I will implement the suggestions and report back. I probably researched ICK treatment 50 hours over the last two weeks and nothing I came across was as concise and accurate as this. Myself and all my fish are indebted to you.
<That's marvelous!>
Thank you,
-Peter
<Simon>

Re: 28/01/2010 Urgent Question - Crypt/ Q.T./ C.P. 2/1/2010
<Hello Peter>
I haven't yet started the ICK QT treatment recommendation since I still have to find and buy a larger QT tank set-up to accommodate all 10 fish. Not trying to reinvent science, but I have a new theory based on limited results and I hope to hear your expert opinion.
<Ok>
I did purchase a JBJ 13 Watt Submariner in-tank UV Sterilizer with the plan to put the UV in the QT tank that I planned to purchase, to help reduce the amount of free swimming ICK.
<This is no good, as UV will render most medications inactive, especially Chloroquine phosphate as this is photosensitive. The only method with which this would be of benefit would be with hyposalinity in a QT tank>.
I have not used UV prior but seemed to read that UV will kill some ICK at low flow rates past the UV bulb.
<Yes>
I also understand that UV kills some of the good stuff too.
<Yes, but not a major concern as there should be plenty more 'good stuff' in the system. That is, if you have not killed it off already by using supposed 'reef safe' treatments in your main system. These are not reef safe, as much of the microscopic life that is integral to your 'reef' is killed off, to the detriment of all>.
Anyhow, I temporarily put the UV Sterilizer in the main tank and am quite surprised at how crystal clear the tank water becomes. I don't know if some microscopic ICK are being removed by the UV,
<probably yes> but there is certainly a noticeable improvement in water clarity.
<Be sure to keep the quartz shaft clean, the bulb replaced and the correct flow rate through -- a lot of work for not such a huge benefit. More useful is Ozone IMO>.
Common opinion tends to indicate that UV will kill some of the ICK, but this isn't a method to completely rid a tank of the disease since 100% of the tank water will not pass through the UV.
<Correct>.
Purchasing a large QT tank to accommodate all 10 fish along with the associated difficulties of the 8 week QT process is a little daunting
<It is good that you find it daunting -- this means that if you go this road you are more likely to succeed because you know the potential pitfalls>
which would be nice to avoid, if possible.
.
So I was wondering, if purchasing another UV Sterilizer for the other side of the tank, or even two more UVs, <no> coupled with the unconventional methods of heavy garlic <maybe a little mixed w/ some vitamins in the food>, increasing the tank temperature to speed up the ICK life cycle,
<this is playing with chemistry to try to 'fix' something. Not a good route IMO> maybe lower salinity to 1.014 or so,
<no point in doing this unless it is 1.009, and many strains of crypt have survived even this> vitamins to help boost the fish self defense mechanisms

and perhaps in-tank medication such as Kick-Ich
 could collectively become a full solution to rid the tank of ICK.
<I'm sorry to say Peter that even if you applied all of these it will not rid the tank completely. I think you have a choice here between a fallow period and quarantine, or trying to 'strike a balance' and accepting that this parasite is with you for good. Really, that choice is down to you and what you think your fishes can take, and whether you think you can manage the system w/ this parasite present. Many do so reasonably successfully, but sometimes the infestation reaches a 'point of no return' where action must be taken>.
It seems that some of the new ICK tomites will not find a host fish, some will be zapped by the multiple UV Sterilizers, some may be repelled by garlic <no, this is used to 'boost' the immune system>, some may be neutralized by Kick-Ich <not w/ UV present> and the fish immune system may become better equipped to fight off the new reduced amounts of ICK attacks.

My understanding is that ICK newly attached to a fish grows and then leaves the fish in 5-7 days?
<In my experience this can be 1 -- 8 days for the visible signs (skin reaction) to disappear>
For the situation to become progressively worse requires a constant supply of new ICK attaching to the fish???
<Yes, but understand that some will remain attached to the fish for longer than others, and more will remain encysted on the substrate for different amounts of time, thus meaning that at any one time in a large infestation all stages of the parasite are present in the system>
Therefore, greatly limiting the amount of new free-swimming ICK should give the fish some short term relief and
hopefully they will be able to ultimately win the battle.
<This is a hope that many have...>
Forgot to mention, regular, even daily partial water changes too, to help remove and further reduce the amount of tomites.
<Yes, but this is best done in a bare bottomed QT with vacuuming/ scrubbing of the sides of the tank>
Is this worth a try, or do you feel that I would just be delaying the inevitable full QT requirement.
<As stated Peter, I think you have but two choices here. If you opt for the 'balance' then I would employ some Lysmata shrimps to help 'ease' the irritation, but I am sure you are aware, this is not a cure either. From the sounds of the severity of your problem, if it were me & mine I would be carefully QT-ing the lot for 8 weeks>.
Thanks again,
-Peter
<No problem, Simon>

SW med. reading, BFs, Velvet, Copper -- 01/30/10
Hi everyone
Hi again guys lol. Ok, so I am in the middle of a two month fallow period in my 90gal tank due to a velvet outbreak. I currently have my 3..5" Heniochus in a ten gallon
<Yikes>
QT tank with a penguin 150 HOB power filter a heater and some sand in a pouch from my main tank to avoid a level spike (or at least help with it). I have medium amount of circulation and an airstone for oxygen. I just made the first dose of Cupramine.
<... I would not expose these, or most other Chaetodontids to copper... Look into/use a Quinine compound instead. Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Now, the label says to dose this for two weeks
<Not w/o testing for free copper daily>
and your good to go (if no signs of spots or symptoms), but do you think this is long enough?

I know for a face there is velvet in the water because it's the same water that was from my display tank. If not two weeks, what amount of time do you feel is safe enough to say the fish is free of velvet and can be placed back into the display? And, how do you feel about the "Prime" product by Seachem just in case I run into problems with ammonia and water changes aren't completely
cutting it?
Thanks,
J
<Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down... Bob Fenner>

Re more SW dis. w/o reading 1/30/10
Ok thanks Bob. Is there anywhere unparticular that you recommend I purchase Quinine Sulfate from?
<Please read where you were referred to. Sources are listed there. B>
I can't find much online and for a reasonable price at that. And is the success rate with killing velvet as good as that of Copper?
<And this...>
Thanks

30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine 1/31/2010
Hi everyone
<Hello Jason>
I am reading now......only thing is I can't find the answer to my one question.......can I use Quinine Sulfate in my display tank and kill off the Velvet?
<It is not likely to work. The presence of substrate can affect the med, and the lifecycle of the parasite means that it will still be in your system when treatment finishes. This is best done in a QT setting. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm>
It says it does not kill beneficial bacteria.
<Does not, but neither is it likely to the job you want it to here. Simon>.

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine 2/1/2010
<Jason>
Ok Simon, thanks for responding. So since the life cycle is so long with Velvet, how long shall I QT for in order to be sure that the life cycle is complete?
<Have you read where you were referred? 8 weeks 'fallow' time>
If the Quinine doesn't get absorbed (hence bare bottom tank), will it work faster?
<No, this will take 8 weeks, although the treatment period is not this long. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>.
Also, I have a lil nylon bag of sand from my main tank in my QT tank to add some beneficial bacteria and help with suppress a new cycle and level spikes. Will that be enough to absorb the Quinine?
<Mmmm, maybe. Maybe not. I would not use this, it may well harbour some parasites as well as absorb the med. Instead I would use some bacteria-in-a-bottle to seed some inert sponges in a filter>.
Or does it have to be a full sand bed in order to absorb it?
<To my knowledge there is no data on this. If there is, or if any of the crew knows more here I am sure they will chip in>.
Thanks
<Simon>

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine -- 02/02/10
Ok thanks Simon,
<No problem>
I think you misunderstood me........I was indeed referring to the "treatment period" not the "fallow period". But you did answer my question saying that the treatment period will not be as long as the full 8-week cycle of the parasite.
<That's good news>
Thanks again
<Simon>

Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine 2/8/10
Hey guys.
<Hello Jason>
Jeez, I am just full of issues lol. Now I followed what the "crew" suggested and I am using Quinine to treat Velvet.
<Ok>
But my issues now are....AMMONIA/NITRITE (Ammonia almost .25ppm and nitrite the same).
<Yes -- the most common reason for mortality in QT tanks by far>
I did use my display tank water (which has been seasoned for over four months)
<No good, as most of the bacteria required are attached to 'surfaces'>
but apparently ceramic rings and stars weren't enough to keep from having a mini "recycle" of the tank.
<Were these 'seeded' or new?>
I am using bacteria (Nite-out by Microbelift) and a product called Prime to help aid in the cycle process along with daily 25% water changes (which all are indeed helping).
<Yes, these are your best methods, although I am unsure if using Prime might interfere with the Quinine>
My concern is that my Butterfly (Chaetodon Ulietensis) will be bothered by the nitrogenous waste (like each and every Butterfly profile on WWM states). Will this be ok temporarily or is there a good chance my Butterfly will pass on?
<Should be ok short term (a few days). This requires diligence on your part, careful observation, testing. You can cease feeding for a few days to help here, but not much longer if you can help it. Feed sparingly afterwards until the ammonia is under control.>
Bob states these are indeed tough, but how tough?
<Mmmm, tough by Butterfly standards yes, but not what I would call tough overall>
Should I be concerned?
<Yes>
Anything else you recommend?
<Mmmm, purchase of a larger QT system.... to use BEFORE introduction of livestock to your display, as well as treating now>
Thanks so much.....AGAIN lol!
<No problem, Simon>
Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine
Thanks again.
<No prob.s>
The bio rings have been in my display tank since I started it four months ago, so they are "used".
<Mmm, lets hope they do not harbour encysted parasites>
Also, for the Quinine, the directions say to use two treatments at full strength? Is this what you would do?

Is the treatment over after just two doses like the directions state?
<Yes, your fish are placed into the QT tank w/ the med. When the parasites 'drop off' the fishes to encyst they are killed by the med. in the water>.
And what would you recommend I do with the new 20gal QT that I purchase?
<Use it pronto>
Will the water from my ten gallon and the bio rings inside be enough?
<Mmmm, I would transfer all immediately, and top off w/ new water. Keep using the bottled bacteria>
Thanks
<No problem Jason. Do write back w/ your results and watch the ammonia. Simon>

Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine
<Hello again Jason>
Wow that was fast.......lol.

Ok sounds good, I will be in touch with you. I just tested ammonia and I'm at almost zero but nitrite are between 0 and .25ppm.
<This will be ok, keep at it>
So I guess I'm nearing the end of the mini cycle. Which bottled bacteria do you feel is the most effective?
<I've used a couple and found Hagens Cycle to be the best, but there are many I have not tried at all>
And do you like Nite-out?

If the bio rings did have encysted parasites the Quinine would still kill them correct?
<No, it won't. If it did then no-one would ever use anything else. To my knowledge there is no chemical that will kill these and not kill everything else, my understanding is that all act on the free swimmers. You will probably be ok here though, but if you are nervous (like me) I would put some inert sponge in a filter in the QT and gradually remove the bio rings bit by bit once you have the ammonia under control, and before you finish the treatment course>
And would the Quinine be just as effective when just treating the water in a QT with no fish?
<? why would you want to do this? You mean in your display sans fish? No.>
All these questions I know.......sorry.
<No problem>
Thanks Simon
<Ok!>

Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine 2/10/10
Hey Simon,
<Hello Jason>
You are of MUCH help in this process, I really appreciate it.
<No problem, but do remember - these problems are of your own making from the lack of use of a QT tank before you add fishes to your display>
To follow up on the last email you sent over to me.....I was referring to treating my QT tank (NOT display tank) with Quinine before I added fish,
<? You mean you have not already acted? I'm scrolling down here and it seems this has been going on for a month. If you suspected Velvet then you should have acted and separated the fishes immediately as James initially advised. I am confused here.. are you purchasing new fish when you have a parasitised system?>
what do you think?
<I would medicate the QT first and then add the fish after, if it was Velvet.... but I suspect since the amount of time this has been going on now (a month) that what you have is actually Cryptocaryon... either way the treatment is the same>
I want to try to kill a lot of the parasites so I don't have to put the new fish into so much stress.
<Mmmm, these will drop off and die in the med. anyway after a few days - most of the stress will come from general QT tank conditions over time>
Also, the directions to the Quinine Sulphate are VERY vague. It says....."Dose 1/4 teaspoon every 24 hours with 25% water changes before each dose....". So how long shall I treat this for?
<Please read here, there is plenty of info that can help you: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Shall I dose daily for a week, for ten days? What do you think? And, unfortunately I just added a Heniochus in my QT and it has Velvet already.
<?>
I started treatment with the Quinine the SAME day I noticed spots on the fish, will the Quinine act quickly enough? Is it a fast acting medication or does it take several days?
<Please read/ learn the lifecycle of this parasite Jason, it is the key to successful treatment and you have been referred to it several times. It is virtually identical to Marine Ich, Cryptocaryon>
Thanks again
<No Problem>
Simon.....your AWESOME!!!
<Simon>

Marine Ich 1/20/10
Hello WWM crew,
<Hi Jeremy>
This is my first time writing to you all so hopefully this goes well. I love your site and have used it in starting my saltwater hobby every step of the way. I live in Oklahoma and recently we encountered a blizzard that caused
a power outage as of a few weeks back.
<No fun>
Causing my water temps to take a drop to almost 65 degrees for a day. I don't know if temp drops can be a cause
directly but maybe due to stress shortly after I noticed my Pink Tailed Trigger fish (I will stick to common names if that's okay)
<Sure. Only important that we communicate clearly, accurately as to what is what>
developed what seemed like my first case of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). Now for my set-up and live stock introduction. Set-up: 125 Gallon FOWLR, Marineland C-360 Canister Filter, Aqua Tech 30/60 Power Filter, Eco Equalizer (don't crucify me).
<Not a modern or ancient Roman, nor Vlad the Impaler!>
I do not have a protein skimmer at the moment or a UV Sterilizer I know these are considered necessity
<Mmm, no... but I'd trade in the magnetic gizmo and use the money for a skimmer for sure>
but I do weekly 15% water changes every Sunday religiously to keep water parameters in check. Which are all undetectable except for nitrates.
<Which are?>
Although those are in the safe range. Expected with FOWLR tanks. Now for the livestock: Volitans Lionfish,
Stars and Stripes Puffer, Snowflake Eel, Huma Rectangle Trigger, Blue Spotted Puffer, Yellow Tang. Okay now for the problem it has spread to all of my fish I'm guessing the lion fish and stars and stripes puffer haven't shown visible signs but I did my research it doesn't mean they aren't carrying the parasites.
<Correct>
Obviously I do not have a large enough tank to quarantine all my livestock to leave my tank fallow for a month or so. So knowing this I contacted National Fish Pharmaceuticals as that was suggested several times on your site. They suggested Crypto Pro a hobbyist retail version of Quinine Sulfate,
<Good>
and that I could treat using this in my display tank. So that sounded like the best option to me. They gave me
instructions to put in 1/8 teaspoon per ten gallons of water and to leave in the system for 5-7 days removing carbon from my filters. On day three of the treatment it really seemed to be working all was well my fish never stopped eating so there was no change in that but they were itching a lot less. Well then it went down hill from there around day 5 it just seemed to have gotten worse and then it was full blown on every fish but the lionfish. So I am severely frustrated and out of ideas.

I haven't lost any fish and would like to keep it that way. I'm not giving up on these guys so I'm open to any
suggestions.

Sorry for being long winded but I figured the more descriptive the better and maybe someone else could relate to my situation. So is there any advice you could give me? I do still have enough Quinine Sulfate for 2 more 5-7 day
doses. or should I try a different approach?

Thanks for everything your team does. Your site is an excellent source of information to any aquarist.
Jeremy Wright
<Sorry to not have responded to you sooner. Bob Fenner><Oh! I've included input we/WWM rec'd today below... Pertinent, useful to you. RMF>

Ich and Quinine Sulfate: When to dose: 1/6/2010
Hello,
<Hi John.>
I have a 55 gallon QT setup with 4 fish I newly purchased. The blue hippo tang I purchased has ich spots on him.
<Not really surprising, they seem more prone to it than others.>
The other fish have no ich.
<yet.... They are sharing the same tank, they will get it.>
He usually hides under or in the pvc pipe and appears to be having rapid breathing.
<From the Ich>
I've caught him eating some Nori and some pellets but I'd like for him to eat more.
<Eating at all is a good sign.>
I've added garlic extract and Selcon and it seems like they are not attracted to the food. Should I treat the QT now for ich or wait till my fish eat a lil more?
<Treat now.>
I cycled a large amount of medium (filters) for my QT so I don't have to worry about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate
spikes or building up.
<Good to plan ahead>
From what I've read quinine sulfate can destroy your biological filtration which would in turn give you an ammonia spike. Is this true?
<No, one of the nice things about quinine is that it does not destroy your biological filter>
I've done hyposalinity in the past with success but maintaining a steady pH was the most difficult part.
<Hypo isn't really that effective.>
<have a read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm >
Thanks,
John

Re: At my wits end: Crypt control, lack of QT, Copper in display tank.
Good Candidate for Quinine treatment 12/16/2009
This seems like an expensive treatment.
<Hi Aaron, Yes, it isn't exactly cheap.>
On the website it says to do a 25% water change daily.
<No, it says 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. Treat one time and leave in the water for 5-7 days.
For resistant Ich, treat once every three days with a 25% water change before each treatment. Do at least 3 treatments = 9 day period.>
Is this a must?
<Follow the instructions exactly.>
So basically this treatment is less harmful to my pets?
<Yes>
And will not destroy the biological filtration?
<No it will not. It will kill all snails though.>
<MikeV>

Re: Acclimating Lysmata amboinensis, and CP trtmt. 12/16/2009
Hi Bob,
Thanks a lot, that cleared up almost everything.
<Ahh; clarity is pleasurable>
When I adjust the ph upwards with the system water, how slow should this be done ?
Over how many hours ?
How slowly should I drip the ph adjusted water into the bag water ?
<An hour per full pH point is about right... as a medical student, earnest academic I am sure you appreciate the order of magnitude in Hydrogen ion content, the implications here>
And one last question. Three weeks back you had suggested I use Chloroquine phosphate to treat my fish which showed symptoms of both Crypt and Amyloodinium. Since my qt is not big enough I had to separate the fish into
two batches as I am leaving the display fallow. Most of them are treated in the qt whereas the yellow tang and the cleaner wrasse are treated in a large inert plastic tub. Everything was going on fine until suddenly the water in the container has turned deep yellow about a day back ! Its almost impossible to see the fish and the Tang keeps trying to jump out. What is this due to ?
<A over simplistic jargonistic statement but: "Metabolite interactions"...
Best to...>
Already did a partial water change. Should I go with another larger change and replenish the medicine or not ?
<Change most all the water and re-new the medicine to full concentration.
BobF>

Quinine Sulfate: Good for a stocked tank? Follow up questions on Published WWM FAQs 12/8/2009
Hi WetWeb People
<Hi Thai.>
My blue ring has itch.
<Blue Ringed Angel? ><<Likely Pomacanthus annularis Mike. RMF>>
Was reading the FAQ on itch and I see that MikeV recommended Quinine Sulfate as it is less stressful on fish and also doesn't wipe out the biological filtration like copper.
<This is correct, but as I also stated, it will kill any mollusk in your tank.>
If this is the case can I use it in the main tank.
<It is always preferable to treat in QT, but there are instances where it is beneficial or even necessary to treat a display tank.>
It's a FOWLR. The reason I ask is that I am looking at alternative methods to treat. I have a 375 gallon with 500 pounds of like rock so catching the fish is no easy task, otherwise I would just let it run empty.
<Using it in the tank would likely be beneficial for you then.>
The other problem I have is that my QT tank is only 55 gallons. Not ideal for a six bar angel, blue ring, yellow tang, 9 fusiliers, 3 Chromis and 2 triggers.
<Heheh, I agree..>
I am also open to try Garlic in food as an alternative.
<My opinion on garlic is while it may help, it is not a cure.>
My yellow tang and six bar have not contracted white spot so I'm assuming that is natural immune system is doing wonders.
<Or, it just has not caught it yet.>
Also thinking of buying a cleaner goby to help relieve stress.
<They may help, but with your tank, they are more likely to become trigger food.>
Also was reading in the FAQ on itch (have read a lot) that itch or white spot is practically in every system and keeping water level stable is the key.
<Yes>
Therefore is it possible to treat the blue ring angel only in the QT with Quinine Sulphate and leave him for 4 weeks and then re-introduce it to the main tank. Would he just contract it again or will he develop immunity.
<It is still in your tank in high enough quantities, it would catch it again.>
Looking for alternatives as I am going on holiday in 9 days time and nothing else looks practical for now.

Wanting to know your opinion on this idea and feedback on GARLIC EXTREME.
Had read some stories in FAQ and its successes and am currently will to try any route before going to the sure fire copper route as its worked in the pass.
<Again, I think it can help, but garlic is not going to cure anything.>
PS in Australia so I'm probably messaging at odd times but hope for your input soon
Kind Regards,
Thai Pham
<My Pleasure.>
<MikeV>

Quinine Sulfate: Good for a stocked tank? Follow up questions on Published WWM FAQs 12/10/2009
Thanks heaps MikeV.
<Hi Thai.>
The only thing I need to take out of the tank is the hermit crab then.
<Snails, clams, etc.>
Don't have anything else apart from it, rock and fish. Didn't notice any white spot on blue ring angel today so I might have misdiagnose. Will give it one or two days careful observations before I go try Quinine Sulphate.
Once again thanks for your advice.
<Very good. In response to your other questions in a separate email, It is dosed at 1/4 teaspoon (1.25 ml) per 10 gallons (38 l) with a 50% water change after 7 days. Remove all chemical filtration (Carbon, etc) from the system and turn any UV or skimmers off.>
<As to where to purchase, you can try http://www.nationalfishpharm.com I don't know if they will ship to AU, but it is worth a look, Otherwise, you can consult with a veterinarian.>
Thai
<MikeV>

Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich 12/3/09
Greetings to my FAVORITE people at WWM!
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate Bob and the whole crew.

Well, I should have taken Bob's advice on November 10th and removed all my fishes from my 225 gallon reef and treated them with hyposalinity and ordered Quinine Sulphate. Not listening to wisdom caused me the lives of my favorite Kole Tang, two little Neon Gobies, and I think my Filament Wrasse
(his MIA since Thanksgiving night when I DID FINALLY TOOK ALL THE FISHES OUT).
The reason for me to write is not only to pay respect for the knowledge at WWM but also to share some information that I've learned about Quinine Sulphate and some "other" treatments.
<Ahh, please do>
I wasted time by attempting to treat with "REEF SAFE" products: Ich Attack, Herbtana, Kick Ich. They were all indeed REEF SAFE, my hermits, shrimps, urchin, worms were all alive and well after two weeks of using those products concurrently. I can't say they killed ich because my fish still had them, but I cannot say that they might not help them some as they did not decline in health until after two weeks. But this delay caused the lives that I will feel guilty about for much time to come.
So, on Thanksgiving night I enjoyed moving 260 pounds of live rock and corals out of my tank to catch the fishes. PBTang, Atlantic Blue Tang, Flame Angel, Cleaner Wrasse (I know not to ever get these again from what I've learned here at WWM), Lubbock's Wrasse, Clown Fairy Wrasse are currently doing much better in a 55 gallon hospital tank. PBT and ABT were treated with a pH and temperature matched fresh water dip prior to entering the hospital tank since they were showing the worst infection.
I then treated with hyposalinity that was dropped over 3 days to 1.009 and then raised over 3 days to 1.020. (Yeah - they did not stay at 1.009 for more than 36 hours as I decided to treat with the Quinine and I needed to bring salinity back up.)
Tonight is day 1 of Quinine Phosphate treatment.
I dosed at 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. I recommend that people mix this medication in some tank water prior to putting it in the tank - it sort of clumped up when put directly in the tank but it is slowly dissolving.
I contacted National Fish Pharmacy due to conflicting information regarding dosing schedule. Dr. Aukes there recommended to do ONE treatment and let the medication sit in there without a water change for seven days.

Then a 50 percent water change at the end of seven days. Make sure that UV, protein skimmer are turned OFF. Remove all carbon, Purigen, etc.
<Yes, all chemical and physical filtration needs to be off, removed>
Since giving medications, all fishes are looking fine without any signs of additional stress. Interestingly they are showing areas where they've been scratching on their skin.
<Yes... pits>
They are actively eating (by the way - Nat'l Fish Pharm recommends that you DO NOT FEED during treatment to keep water parameters in acceptable range.)
<Mmm, I'd be feeding sparingly>
I will be feeding some because I think it is good that they eat but will be monitoring parameters closely and will use water that I'm made up especially with the purpose of changing water if needed. (20 gallon tank with SG 1.023 and 1/2 teaspoon of Quinine pre-made on the same date - this way, I believe that the medications will have the same effectiveness with it's half life.)
I had read at WWM.com that light should be turned off. Dr. Aukes explained that only UV light would affect the medication. Lights can stay on with Quinine treatment.

Well, I do apologize for this long winded recap of the events but just in case if Chris is not the receiver of this e-mail.

Again, I cannot thank all of you enough to educate me about the lives that we take from the ocean. I will always listen to the advice of the wise, and Bob - you are very wise!
<Heeee! Perhaps a wise-n-heimer at times>
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<And you for sharing your experience, learning here Jamie. You have thus saved MANY folks trouble and MANY fish livestock their health. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich -- 12/09/09
Hello Bob and Crew at WWM!
Just wanted to give you an update on the Quinine Phosphate treatment and ask a question.
<Please do>
Day 6 of QP and all is looking good. No sign of reinfection or secondary infection after ich "fell off" on day 2 -3 of QP. Skin on all the fishes have been cleared and NO SPOTS!
Well, it sure feels good to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel after those very "exciting" three weeks. They are weeks that I hope that I will NEVER have to re-live.
<Amen>
I'm thinking of continuing the QP for a total of 10 days instead of 7 due to Cryptocaryon irritans' life cycle. I'm not sure at which stage QP is effective against C. irritans, do you know?
<Mostly during the free-swimming stage/s>
All fishes are responding well without signs of undue stress. I've had to do 10 - 20 gallon water changes daily on the 55 gallon hospital to keep ammonia in check as I did not have a cycled tank to start out with (I will be ready
if there is a need in the future!).
My question is that I am going on holiday to the Maldives to do some snorkeling with hubby (Yippee) and my original plan was to put the fishes BACK TO DT which will be fallow for 5 weeks at 10 days before we leave, that way, I can observe them and if I need to, "capture" them if re-infection occurs BEFORE we leave. The choice then would be to take them to my LFS and they will keep them in a 30 gallon running in series with the 10,000 gallon system. Plan two, is to get a bigger QT, maybe a 90 gallon, run that just like the hospital tank (bare bottom with PVC condo and plastic plants, couple of coral skeletons) with seeded filter from my other "ich free" tanks. That way, my DT can remain fallow for as long as I need - 10 plus weeks, and if the fishes break out with ich while we are gone, they will be easier to catch.
<I'd go with your first choice, plan here>
I also wanted to just say a really sincere, THANK YOU, to Bob and everyone at WWM. The amount of valuable information presented at WWM is truly amazing. I've been reading and learning about QT, Dips, and responsible aquarium keeping from you all, and I do believe that if it is not for this web site, I would not have these adoring creatures that are trying to get me to go feed them right now.
Thank YOU!
Jamie Barclay
<Ahh! Most welcome Jamie. And have a great trip to the Maldives. Bob Fenner>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich -- 12/09/09
Hi Bob!
<Hello Jamie!>
Thanks for the quick response!
Just to make sure that I understand you right...
You said to put them back in the display tank after 5 weeks running fallow instead of leaving them in a bigger hospital tank and wait till after I come back to put them in the DT?
<Yes. I would do the former: return these fishes to the main display>
Is your reasoning behind this that the tank should be rid of C. irritans after five weeks and it would be less stressful
on the fishes in the DT?
Jamie
<Exactly. Cheers, BobF>

Re: Quinine Sulphate Treatment for Ich -- 12/09/09
I see what you mean.
I've been looking into this "empty" tank for the past several days and I see all sorts of life there: I learned about Columbellids from Lynn and know that they are flourishing in my tank making lots of egg sacks and seeing some teeny tiny babies crawling around on my glass, whole families of copepods living on this hole-y piece of rock - I never knew they can get as big as half an inch with their whiskers,
<Some species considerably larger!>
I learned that I don't have to "feed" the corals and they are growing just fine with the nutrients produced by the life in the tank.
<Yes>
The night I took the fishes out, all I saw was a bunch of rocks piled in water but now it is teaming with life - it will be a lovely home for the fishes when they feel better. Not to mention, I'll feel better as I swim with their relatives in the Maldives.
Have a wonderful evening Bob, and good night!
:)
Jamie
<Ahh! Thank you Jamie. BobF>

Quarantine and Ich prevention 11/3/09
Hi crew,
<Good morrow to you Claudio>
First of all, a big thank for your effort and precious info on the site.
<Welcome>
I have a question on proper quarantine protocol and specifically on ich prevention in the display tank.
<Ok>
My display tank is a 180 g reef that I am trying to keep it as disease free as I can to the best of my ability. I am quarantining pretty much everything wet I place inside the display, fish corals, rocks and even the Chaetomorpha I initially placed in the refugium.
<Sounds good>
(the only things I failed to quarantine were snails, 2 clams and a Linckia starfish. I know I took a risk there but I was not sure how to properly quarantine and feed these animals). My display has been running very well and so far completely disease free for the 6 months it has been operational.
<All right>
Discussing with many in the hobby I repeatedly hear that a ich free tank is a myth.
<Mmm, are actually rare, but such "unicorns" do exist>
I do not subscribe to this statement. As any transmissible disease, if the offending parasite is not introduced, it may be difficult but certainly possible to have a ich free system.
<We are in agreement; and I have been to aquaculture facilities of size that are specific pathogen free>
Given this premise my question is on a proper quarantine protocol and here I am a little bit confused. As I read the FAQ on QT it is recommended over and over to QT the fish withholding any treatment unless disease become evident. As far as crypto is concerned I believe it is a safe assumption to consider any purchased fish to at least be
colonized by ich. Surely these fish will have encountered ich at some point in their journey to our tanks, either in the sea, in the transhipper holding tanks or the LFS.
<Mmm, possibly. I suspect that the prevalence of Cryptocaryon in the wild is not high... and many collectors, wholesale facilities are set up to individually sterilize shared water, utilize net and specimen container sterilizing techniques...>
Most will have received copper treatment at some point,
<Again, this is a fading practice. The larger, better wholesalers do not use copper IME>
however one cannot be sure if the proper concentration and necessary time to eradicate the parasite has been
observed.

The QT protocol I have been using is to place new fish on the QT.
Acclimate for several days, then start treatment with Quinine Sulphate dosed according to manufacture instructions. This medication opposite to copper causes minimal disruption to the biologic filter and ammonia spikes have not been a problem. Almost all fish have tolerated this well, only exception was a diamond goby that appeared overly stressed..
<Could be attributed to handling, the small environment>
After treatment (usually takes 9 days) the fish are dipped in fresh water with metilene
<Methylene>
blue and then introduced in the display tank.
Is my reasoning flawed or perhaps I am just over killing?
<Well... as you state you did not isolate some other livestock... these Protozoan complaints can be vectored by anything wet), there is some chance there of contamination... But I don't consider your protocol to be
excessive>
I am relatively new to the hobby and I would truly appreciate if any of you could elaborate on the matter. This would be very helpful to me and possibly other who are trying o do "the right thing".
Thanks
Claudio

Re: Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F 11/3/09
Thanks for all the great help once again. Quick follow-up...
Should I use Chloroquine phosphate (CP) in the treatment tank now "just to be safe", or should I wait to see if there are any sure signs of ich?
<If I had it on hand, I would administer it>
I'm just about done with the hypo treatment, so I wouldn't want to subject the fish to longer time in QT-like conditions for another month if unnecessary. One of the FAQs suggested not using hyposalinity with CP. Do you agree with this?
<Can add stress... but if all the fish livestock are in good health otherwise...>
If so, I'll need to take a week or so to up the salinity before starting CP.
<Okay>
If I go ahead and use CP in the treatment tank, is it necessary to perform a bath before returning the fish to the display?
<Not necessary, no>
Also, in the treatment tank, I had put in some sand and a few live rocks to make the fish comfortable and to give a head start on the bacteria since I was adding so many fish to a new startup (also had to use Stability and Prime and plenty of water changes until the ammonia and nitrites were down to zero). Lighting has been very low (and I'll turn off the tank lights entirely during treatment), so there's not much in the way of
algae. Should I remove the sand and/or rocks before using the CP?

Or is it safe to leave the sand and rocks, since there are no inverts/corals and little algae in the treatment tank?

I guess I will find a new home for the lion (sad). Even a neon cleaner goby would be at risk.
<Mmm, actually, not too likely.>
I saw a recommendation of 2 cleaner shrimp per 50g. If I wanted to get a neon goby as well, do I need to scale back the number of cleaner shrimp, or does it not matter, since neither the goby nor the shrimp rely exclusively on parasites to feed?
<Up to you>
I was thinking about 6 L. amboinensis, 2 L. debelius and 1 G. oceanops.
Thanks again!
Sean
<Welcome. BobF>
RE: Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F
Wow! That was fast, and VERY helpful. Thanks again!
<Welcome. B>

Copper and quarantine tank: A textbook opportunity to use Quinine. 8/23/2009
Hi Crew.
<Hi Claudio.>
First of all thank you for the wonderful site.
<Our pleasure.>
I have a question on copper use and quarantine tanks.
<Shoot.>
Here is the situation. I upgraded from a 40G SW tank to a 180G. The 180G has ~ 160 lb of rocks that have been cured for 1-1/2 months on a separate vat. The 180G has been running for about a week cycling with a cooked shrimp. It has not gone through the ammonia spike, nitrite, nitrate process yet. In the meantime I took down the old tank that was succumbing to Cyano and hair algae (I have never been able to keep NO3 and PO4 low for some reason). I saved the live rocks, cleaned them and placed on a separate container with a powerhead and no light.
<Thank you for these details.>
I placed the fish ( a yellow tang and a clown fish) into a 20G quarantine tank with a hang on filter and a remora C hang on filter. The quarantine tank was properly cycled and had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 2 ppm nitrate.
<All sounds good so far.>
My fish at some point years ago had ich, they got over it and never had it again. I would hate to introduce ich on the new 180g and probably my fish are colonized by it even without evident infection.
<it is a safe bet it is in your tank, as well as everyone else who keeps a SW tank It is just a matter of keeping the infection under control.>
For this reason I decided to quarantine the fish and treat them with copper (Cupramine)
for 4 weeks prior to introducing them on the new tank. The fish have been on the quarantine tank for 1 week without copper and the water parameters were unchanged from the one mentioned above.
<Generally not the best of practices. I can understand your rationale for doing so, but copper is very stressful on fish.>
As I went to buy Cupramine I saw a beautiful powder brown tang ~ 3" and since I was going to quarantine the old fish I decided to go ahead and buy it. It is a good specimen, healthy, actively swimming and feeding well. Here I should have done more research since it turned out to be A. Nigricans and not A. Japonicus and I now know the difference in adaptability to a captive environment between the two species.
<You are in for a challenge.>
I decided to give the new fish some time to adapt prior to adding copper.
For 3 days all was well. The new tang had a good color, was swimming very actively, eating well flake food from my hands. It had a few light turf war with the yellow tang but after about 1 day they stopped bothering each other. About 12h after introduction in the QT, the new tang showed 1 or 2 small white spots, I was not sure if it was ich or just some mucus. Those went away the 3 day. As said everything was well so thinking it was ich on day 5 I decided to go with the original plan and start copper.
<At least now there is a rationale for doing so.>
I added Cupramine as per manufacture instruction and I tested a level at 0.3 ppm. The following day all 3 fish were acting stressed. The new tang coloration faded and was looking more stressed than the other fish. I tested the water and I had a spike in ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Ammonia was at 0.5 ppm, nitrite at 0.5 ppm and nitrate at 10 ppm.
<Killed the biological filter.>
I went ahead and did a 50% water change with aged SW I prepared few days prior just in case.
<Excellent planning ahead on your part.>
The following day I still had some ammonia (0.2) much less nitrite (0.1) and almost no copper. The older fish seem to have recovered to their normal. The PB tang is regaining its coloration, is swimming more actively and runs to feed and eat really well whereas barely feed the previous day.
<An encouraging sign..
I did another 30% water change today and things are looking better.
<Good.>
I believe the copper has killed the nitrifying bacteria and this is the reason for the spikes in ammonia, NO2 and NO3.
<You are correct.>
The question is how do I proceed from here? I was planning to give the fish some time to recover from this insult.
<You have another, more expensive, but less stressful option - quinine>
Do water changes to keep water condition as pristine as I can. I am concerned though that as I re dose copper the situation is going to deteriorate again. I am also not sure if the PBT is also particularly sensitive to copper.
<No more than other tangs, but add copper on top of stress.>
I really would like to go through the planned copper treatment. I do not want to risk bringing ich to the new tank.
<Again, this is an opportunity to use quinine. You can read about its application here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm There is also a link to an online retailer that sells it. You want Quinine Sulfate.>
Sorry for the long post, I would really appreciate some help here.
<Since you now have ich, you do have to treat. I am a big fan of Quinine - It is more expensive, but it is much less stressful than copper.>
PS. One more question about the old live rocks. They are beautiful rocks and I would like to be able to use them on the new set-up, however since the old rocks were once covered with Cyano and hair algae, I am afraid to bring those scourges to the new tank. Now they are looking clean. Is there a way to "de contaminate" them so that they can be reused?
<Quinine works well here as well, will kill Cyano.>.
Thanks Again
<My pleasure. I would like to take a moment and commend you on your practices. Everything you have done thus far has been 'by the book'>
Claudio
<MikeV>

Re: Copper and quarantine tank: A textbook opportunity to use Quinine. 8/25/2009
<Hi Caludio>
Thank You Mike for the answer.
<My pleasure.>
I bought Quinine Sulfate and I'll try it as soon as it arrives.
<Excellent, I think you will be happy with the results.>
In the meantime hopefully the fish will fully recover and the biological filter will get reestablished.
<It will - you can add a good piece of live rock to the system to help it along.>
I read the FAQ on quinine sulfate and there are different recommended regimens.
<Yes.>
The prevalent one seems to be 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons, repeat in 3 days with a 25% water change in the interim, repeat 3 times (9 day treatment) then keep the fish in quarantine for the remaining time to 4 weeks. While treating, no skimmer, no carbon, only ambient light. Is this the plan you recommend or do you suggest anything different?
<This is the method that has met with the most success and the one I would use.>
Thanks
<As always, my pleasure. Do write back and let us know how it all works out. We are really trying to increase our 'library' on quinine.>
Claudio
<MikeV>

disease help... Retail, whlse, competence 7/23/09
Hello
<Salud>
I brought in an Asfur angel, an Imperator, two Copperbanded Butterfly, part of the initial order for our new store from one of the "top" LA wholesalers.
<... Okay...>
They were put into 3 separate 30 gallon quarantine systems. Within 48 hours the two angels and one copper developed Lymphocystis. The Imperator additionally showed what I thought at the time was several spots of Crypto in the same pectoral fin displaying the Lymphocystis.
One butterfly also showed a few spots, as well as the Asfur. Everybody was given copper (Cupramine following manufactures dosage level checked daily with Salifert kit) A week later, no response to copper as far as the spots,
<So... what had you learned?>
and I noticed that after two weeks all the original spots are intact. None seem to rupture. Now yesterday The second butterfly literally from one hour to the next showed a raised patch of scales and heavy breathing.
<Copper poisoning, plus stress, equals...?>
The patch began to show redness and I moved him to a smaller hospital tank with copper and added Kanamycin sulfate, a couple of hours later he was gone. The other fish all behave normally and eat well but with no improvement in the spots. I do not have a microspore available right now or I would sample to
the spots to confirm crypto. Is it possible that it is not crypto? Should I try quinine sulfate?
<Not at all likely Cryptocaryon... and why would you use a Quinine?>
Any Ideas?
<All sorts>
I have been miserable with the fish I have received. Until recently I only used trans shippers and have always been aggressive with treating diseases with tremendous success. Because it is a new store we felt
we could get a more complete cross section of fish by using a good wholesaler and we did our research,
<Mmm, not obvious from this email... I would NOT treat large angels or Chelmons with chelated copper... I WOULD have dipped/bathed all new/incoming fishes... per the protocols listed on WWM>
but now the number of losses and the difficulty in treatment is very upsetting. I even confronted them with
the fact that at least one fish was shipped with visible parasites. No actual response.
<Let's not banter about here. Please name the companies involved>
Any help will certainly be appreciated. We take the survival of the fish very seriously, and although we are a new store, I have been doing aquariums including reefs since the mid 80.s
Thanks
Gabriel
<Gabe... do state whether you'd like your business, the wholesaler not to be named. Bob Fenner>

Re: disease help... SW, crypt f'? 7/24/09
Hi Bob
Thank you for replying, as for the store we are aquarium encounters, In New York. The fish are from SDC, they are certainly great people and I know Eric is an especially nice guy and very knowledgeable but I also know they are huge and things can get past. I don't want to get into any problems with them but I need to know what to do in the future as far as disease, Quarantine etc. As far as fresh water bath/dip I always do that for every fish these included.
<My input re SOP for fish and invert. groups is posted, has occurred in periodicals and books for decades>
As far as the quinine sulfate that was the suggestion of national Fish Pharmacy. The truth is I had run into crypto like diseases years ago that did not respond to Cu and I was very successful with Quinacrine hydrochloride (ala Dr. Edward Kingsford).
<Yowzah! We do go back a fair piece. I am also a huge fan of Quinine compounds for protozoan complaints>
Right now this whole project (opening the store) has drained me physically and mentally, and Oh yeah monetarily.

I Have three partners who financed most of it, but I did everything from scratch myself from woodworking to acrylic and all design, engineering you name it. We had several delays and have had to by several month rent without opening , more pressure. We are trying to open within a week and everyone who has come in has loved it. It looks more like a small public aquarium than a typical fish store. I have right now about 120 aquariums running with close to half salt water, we also have a hands on science discovery center which we are finishing up.
<Nice>
I am embarrassed right now to admit that my background is in marine science and my independent research during my undergraduate work was in marine fish parasitology and I teach college Bio.
<... why embarrassed?>
I expected the answers you gave me, so if I know what I am doing, why am I having all these problems and making stupid mistakes?
<Really... does happen>
Maybe I am just plain exhausted from 10 -14 hour days in the store while keeping up with my "real job" I am also under tremendous pressure from my partners and I don't have the luxury of being scientific about things with them breathing on me.
My microscope should be here shortly as well as my other lab stuff and I hope to get back on track.
Why am I telling you this?
<Because we are human... is there more?>
I respect your opinion and advice, and I have no one to vent to, that knows a drop about what I am doing or going through.
Thank you for your time. I let you know what happens with the fish, I hope to have the opportunity to meet you.
Gabriel
<We shall meet. BobF>

Re: disease help, SW, comm., Protozoan 7/26/2009
Hello
I have my lab equipment, the fish I first wrote you about definitely have crypto, as well as some other yet unidentified ecto parasite embed in the fins. Slightly larger cysts slightly more translucent than crypto.
In the meanwhile, three more butterfly fish as well as a lemon peel a chevron tang and an arc eyed hawk all have definite crypto. Now that I a whole central system infected, what do you recommend, according to
national fish pharm.
I should treat the whole system with quinine sulfate,
<This or Quinacrine Hydrochloride would be my choice>
I do not want to use any copper if possible, and in truth the copper as I wrote earlier did not work as yet, except to kill the Copperbanded butterfly.
Please any help is greatly appreciated, I refuse to become one of the stores hose goal is to sell fish quick before they die, or just make them someone else's problem
Gabriel
<Do try either Quinine cpd. Gabriel... System-wide... Do you have Ed Noga's book handy? BobF>

Re: disease help some additional info to the email just sent 7/26/2009
Hello again
I forgot to mention all the fish that I found to be infected were given dips, I also have to add a Kole tang and Declivis butterfly to the list.
They are all on one central system but in different aquariums Help!
Gabriel
<Could well be that the Protozoans were too far embedded to be excised by dip/baths... Does happen. BobF>

Re: disease help some additional info to the email just sent, Crypt., Quinine -- 07/28/09
Bob,
Thank you for the help, I treated the whole system with the quinine sulfate, as I did not want the water in the stock tanks to turn yellow and I also believe that it is less light sensitive. One question, I have a piece of
base or live rock in almost every tank, I removed most but left some pieces to see what would happen, I assumed the quinine would wipe out the rock, so far after 24 hrs the coralline algae is losing its color, but the worms and large amphipods are wriggling and swimming about on and under the rock. I thought they would go first.
<Mmm, no... Quinines mainly affect Protozoans...>
If they should have, could it be the med. is under dosed or otherwise ineffective?
<Other biota will reduce the effectiveness, or put another way, more medicant will have to be added to have physiological effect if there is more biomass/metabolic interaction>
So far all the fish seem to be doing well with exception of a Kole tang who is re-infested 48 hrs after a dip, and 24 hrs after adding the med. I am following the dosage recommended by National Fish Pharm.
Gabriel
<I'd stay with their protocol. BobF>

Quinine..sulfate or phosphate??? 5/11/09
Hi Crew,
<Simon>
For the poster to this query today there is a couple of very cheap sources here in the UK - I don't know if that is it useful to them or not:
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_
1_3474.html
http://www.pills2u.co.uk/5188/-AVLOCLOR-Tablets.html?referrer=froogle&utm_so
urce=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=pid5188to
Thanks to all!!!
Simon Trippick
<Thank you for this valuable input. For folks looking in the U.S., fishy pharmacy: http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/symptoms.html
is a ready source. Bob Fenner>

Re: Quinine..sulfate or phosphate??? 5/11/09
Mr. Fenner,
Thanks for the response. I read the link you listed above which had lots of good info. My main confusion is why do you recommend CP over QS?
Thanks again.
<Is more "broad spectrum"... treats more "things" more effectively. BobF>

My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading -- 10/10/08 Greetings , <Salutations> My fish are infested with ich. I currently have them in a 10 gallon tank, and am treating them with copper. I should have a larger tank as there is a Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang , Hippo Tang, Flame Angel, and a Bicolor Angel all sharing mouse 10 gallon quarantine tank. <... dangerous... too much life period, physio- and psycho-logically squeezed in here> The copper treatment is about 5-7 days, which hopefully will cure the fish. <Mmm... too likely not... hard to keep a physiological dose up in such a setting... and too toxic...> However, ich is still present in the display tank, <Yes> and is bound to re-infect the fish if I put them back into the tank, which means that I should leave the display tank empty without fish for a while. <Correct> My question is, how long? <At least four weeks... longer, better> I read about 31 days, but then again, I read that the ich can remain alive for months even without a host present. <Can> I am going to raise the temperature to 82-85 in the main tank, but am concerned about the livestock remaining in the tank which are two lettuce Nudibranch, one scooter blenny (which we have not been able to catch), one Coral Banded Shrimp, too cleaner shrimp, about 80 snails, several red leg crabs, a Sally Lightfoot, and a wonderful, slithery white ribbon-like eel. <... the eel is/will act as a reservoir host here... Do you realize this?> Which of these critters is susceptible to ich? I have read that eels are somewhat resistant, is this true? <Yes> I do not want to go through the procedure of leaving this tank fallow for however long is necessary, only to put the fish back in for them to get re-infested. <... Understood> I really appreciate your help and advice with this problem. Best regards, Jeff <Mmm, well... T'were it me, I would NOT treat the families of fishes mentioned with Copper for Cryptocaryon... and NOT in such a small volume... the Eel needs to be removed... and you need to read re the use of Quinine cpd.s... Stat! Bob Fenner>

Re: My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading Chloroquine -- 10/10/08 Advice taken Bob, thank you very much for your prompt reply. Best regards, Just Castaldo

FAQ on Quinine Compounds 8/8/07 This is just some info, since I just used some of this medication, and what I got to experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the Quinine Compound FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine Hydrochloride. I used Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish Pharmacy, which was very effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic, apparently, to hermit crabs, which I suppose are resilient little creatures, but it is very toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo snails in the tank (or so I thought) which I removed and placed in my 20 gallon, but apparently I had 8, and within a half hour of adding the Quinine Sulfate, the remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom. It isn't an instant killer, because they were fine after I quickly snatched them out and put them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote this to tell about a specific experience. I can see where it can get confusing, i.e. Copper = Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks; Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for fish and inverts and most likely sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish and sharks, bad for inverts. Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine RXP = safe for fish and inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :) Thanks again, gentlemen & ladies... Thomas <Thank you for this input Tom. BobF>

Need help finding a cure... <Crypt/Velvet?... Chloroquine...> 8/28/05 Wow.. what a wealth of knowledge you have and I am so thankful you are sharing this knowledge with us! I love your site and though there is soooo much information on your site it can make things difficult to find, but with a bit patience and lots of searching I can usually find answers to almost anything.. I do commend you (and the rest of WWM crew) for the time and effort you put into this amazing hobby. well.. I wouldn't be e-mailing you if here wasn't a problem.. so here goes.. We have a 1500 gallon system.. yes 1500 gallons, my husbands dream (I love it too : ) but I can at least blame it all on him : ). It is actually 5 tanks that line two walls of our basement all on one filtration system which is located in the garage. The tanks have been up and running about a year now and we are slowly getting them stocked and arranged. It is a slow and expensive process as you are aware. I guess with adding new items to the tanks we are always at risk. We have a separate 400 gallon tank we are using as a quarantine tank. <All water, gear... separated> For some unknown reason.. maybe adding new corals to the tank we had an outbreak of what we believed to be ich. we removed all of the fish except for the ones in the reef.. (Powder blue tang, 3 blennies and a mandarin goby). <Mmm, if there are fish/es present in part of the system, they will act as "reservoir hosts" (scientific term)...> So now in the 400 gallon QT tank we have the following: Pink Tail trigger, Nigger trigger, Naso Tang, 3 yellow tangs, Blue hippo tang, skunk clown fish, emperor angel, blue faced angel, purple tang and a golden puffer... (there was also a clown trigger, lemon peel angel and long horned cowfish, but they recently passed) Ah yes. the golden puffer.. here is where our problem lies... Since we do have a puffer we cannot and do not want to use the conventional copper medication for fear of killing him. We have always used Hyposalinity in the past with great success, however they have been in hypo for about a week now with no improvement. the fish we left in the reef part of the main system actually look better than the ones in the QT tank. Only thing we can come up with is marine velvet.. <Mmm, for the many dollars you have invested in this system, livestock, ongoing operational costs, I would invest in an inexpensive microscope, learn to use it... not hard, expensive...> and only medication we could come up with people actually having success with was Aquatronics Marex which contained Chloroquine <di>Phosphate. However to my findings over the past two days.. Aquatronics has gone out of business and that medication cannot be found. <Mmm, actually...> I am having great difficulties finding another med with the same ingredient or a vet to prescribe me Chloroquine Phosphate because they do not specialize in fish... Do you have any suggestions on obtaining this medication or another med that may help with external parasites that will not harm our puffer? <Careful use of chelated copper along with hyposalinity... of all fishes... would be my choice... If you are convinced that you'd like to try Chloroquine diphosphate (note spelling) this compound can be procured for human use (used to treat malaria)... expensive... from a medical doctor source> I have read so many articles on FW dips, but would Hypo not have the same effect? <Mmm, generally not... the rapid change in osmotic pressure is often of much more immediate relief, destruction to single-celled animals> If we try to FW dip can we dip multiple fish at once and change FW between "groups". How long can you leave them in there without causing too much stress or harming them more? <... this is posted on WWM> You have my utmost gratitude for any help or suggestions with this.... Thanks for your time!! Jatana <I strongly encourage you to have local folks... guru/s from a marine hobby club, expert service company personnel... come to your site, inspect your fishes, system... help devise (and soon) a workable plan for isolating, treating ALL your fishes... and carefully quarantine all future purchases. Along with the microscope, I cannot urge you enough to procure a copy of Edward J. Noga's "Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment". Bob Fenner>

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