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FAQs on Quinine Compounds Dosing, Treatment

Related Articles: Use of Biological Cleaners, Aquatic Surgery, The Three Sets of Factors That Determine Livestock Health/Disease

Related FAQs: Quinine Compound Med.s, Quinine Cpd.s/Med.s 2,
Quinine Science/Rationale/Use, Sources, Troubles/Fixing, Accounts/Success Stories, & FAQs on: Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelmintics/Vermifuges/Dewormers, Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce, other shams...), Malachite Green, Mercury Compounds/Topicals, Methylene Blue, Metronidazole, Sulfas, Treating Disease, Treatment Tanks, Medications/Treatments II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Garlic UseAntibiotic Use Marine Disease 1, Puffer Disease

Quinine Sulphate: In a main display tank? - Only as a last resort. (toxic to some algae, invertebrates, Protists...), gets "complexed" with substrate, gunk...

One formula calls for 3.7 grams of CP dissolved in a gel powder mix of 300 grams... this mixed with water, foods... less toxic to
non-targeted "other" life. Once <one time) dosing is all this is necessary and tolerated

Chloroquine phosphate     6/9/17
Hello - I have a question about Chloroquine phosphate dosing to gain an understanding more than anything. I have read everything I could find on CP and in regards to dosing there are certainly many different instructions.
<You likely know more than I then>
The CP I have is from National Fish Pharmaceuticals. On their package it indicates if you have a tank less than 80 gallons to add 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons of water and add the same dosage every 24 hours with a 25% water
change each time.
For tanks larger than that to dose once and leave in water for 7 days.
Since this is their recommendation I'm following it but would like to better understand how it works (I'm using in a QT tank less than 80 gallons).
My questions are these:
1. In the small tanks if you kept adding the same dose daily with only a 25% water change wouldn't the concentration become too high over the course of 10 days?
<Mmm; no, or at least, not likely. CP is photo-reduced and "used up" over time... goes away in a few days time>
I can't find anything about how CP works but it must not dissipate if for larger tanks it is a 1 and done treatment.
<I too don't know what the difference is in a larger system... other than more (guessed) depth of water that may reduce photo-decomposition>
Any information you know about this I would appreciate hearing. I do plan on calling NFP but also wanted opinions from someone other than who sells the product.
<Yes, I would... and barring other input from them, I'd treat larger systems as smaller; per gallonage and water changing>
2. I have read in several places it is only effective if you combine with hyposalinity. What is your opinion on this?
<About as effective w/ or w/o>
3. I have read mixed information you should have lights off and others say it does not matter. The instructions from NFP only say to not use UV. Your thoughts?
<Better to leave lights off, definitely UV>
4. Would this be effective treatment for black spot disease?
<The Turbellarian Paravortex? No>
I saw in your information that "literature says it might be efficacious" but do you have specific experience with it working? I'm hoping to treat both Ich and black spot with the same treatment.
<I would not be concerned re Paravortex; not virulent; more of a low-grade space parasite>
5. Does treatment with CP take care of flukes or should Praziquantel still be used?
<I would use Vermifuges against all "worm" issues and not anti-malarials>
Thank you.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine phosphate     6/10/17

Thank you for your response. To follow up with my conversation with NFP and for additional information on this medication for anyone else using it, this is what they said:
1. The water changes are strictly to keep ammonia/nitrite under control.
If water parameters are fine you don't have to do a water change.
<All right>
2. In a small QT with a small number of fish the dosage could be reduced down and not done daily.
<? The dosage (units per volume) should stay the same... In fact, I would also administer the CP via food (simultaneously)... have you searched/read on WWM Re? Please do>
You could dose the recommended amount once every 3 days and replace the correct amount based on the % water change being done.
3. Lighting could be kept on if very low and no direct natural light. If you don't have the ability to lower lights turn them off.
4. Hyposalinity is not a factor and isn't necessary for this treatment to be effective.
5. Not effective for Paravortex.
I did not ask about large systems as while my DT is 300 gallons it is a reef so I would never use this in it.
<I agree w/ this last. IF used; only via foods: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuinDosingF.htm
I appreciate your comment on not being concerned with Paravortex... makes me feel better.
<An olde roomie, Mike Kent, worked on this flatworm... a bunch of years back... Led to MSc and later, college teaching in Oregon.>
Probably why I can't find that much information about how to treat it.
<See WWM, Ed Noga's tomes, Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo's book for a bit more>
My LFS said that it often will just go away on its own and also not to be too concerned about it.
<I do concur. Bob Fenner>

Re: Transship Contacts...
CP Assay       6/7/16
It has been a while, but things are going along nicely. I am purchasing a Colorimeter, Spectrometer or Spectrophotometer for the store. I want to be able to test for Chloroquine Phosphate. I contacted Hach and they
are unsure what I need to test for.
<I don't know that there is an assay for...>
I know one or more of these devices can test this for me. Can you put me in touch with someone that could help me out with testing for CP?
<See the folks that offer it for sale? :
I might make a quick trip to LA to meet some vendors next week, just watching the weather here (storms
in the gulf) and make sure Southwest has some flights available.
<Or a reference librarian in a college that has a life science dept. Bob Fenner>

Acclimating and Treating fish, comm.       7/7/15
My name is Dani and I have an aquarium shop in Barcelona. I want to ask you a couple of questions:
First of all is about how to acclimate fishes arriving from a transshipping order (more than 48 h packed in the bags). I see your Guerrilla method but I'm not sure if I understand it completely.
<Let's see>
What I have to do is:
1. When the fishes arrives open boxes and float the bags to compensate temperature. Also check ph and ammonia in the shipping water.
2. Get some saltwater and adjust with the same PH in the shipping water 3. Put the fishes with shipping water in a container and drip the adjusted ph new saltwater and check ammonia until it disappear.
4. When the ammonia in the container is 0 I have to drip water from my system to the container until the ph in the container raises to the same ph in the system.
5. When the container has the same PH in the system we can make a freshwater (with adjusted ph and Methylene blue) bath and after the bath the fishes will be ready to go to main system.
<Yes! Well done. IF the fishes appear too weak to do step 5, place them in a marine system, and come back a day or two later to effect the pH adjusted freshwater dips/baths>
It is correct? I get new fishes on Friday so I can use this method for the first time with this shipment.
The other question is about treating fish. I have a system of about 2500 liters connected to a sump with 2x39w UV, ozonizer, a large skimmer and a fluidised sand bed filter. Actually the water parameters are perfect (in my opinion) Ammonia and Nitrite undetectable, Nitrate under 5 and salinity at 1020. The problem is that when I introduce new fishes... some of they get Whitespot very quickly and dies within days.
<The reason for 1) Selecting the best species, 2) Selecting the best specimens... from the best locations and dealers... and 3) Expediting their processing.... and 4 onward; providing the best, most stable, optimized conditions; good nutrition....>

I don't know what to do.... maybe threat the entire system with Cupramine?
<I would try avoiding keeping copper in the water permanently. Do you have access to Quinine compounds?>
Put more ozone and raise the RedOx?
<Yes; up to about 400 micro Siemens per cm.>
Maybe the fishes are in bad condition because I make bad acclimation?
<Possibly; or not from a good dealer....>
(I don't use the guerrilla method yet.... I usually acclimate the fishes just dropping system water to the shipping bags).
<Ah, no... bad. Too easily to burn them this way>

I'm afraid because it's very bad to display a system with fishes with white spot, but I don't know what to do in this case ^^
<The above acclimation SOP>
Thank you so much for the fantastic site, it's very helpful! And sorry for my bad English, I hope you can understand me :)
<I understand you perfectly.>
Regards from the sunny Barcelona!
<Nos vemos as we say here in S. California (next to Mexico). Bob Fenner>
Re: Acclimating and Treating fish      7/7/15

Hi Bob
<Hey Mas>
Thank you for your quick reply.
<De nada>
About the SOP, all ok, I will try it with our next shipment.
<Good... I will tell you that amongst all my written efforts, getting folks in the trade to adapt/adopt this procedure is likely my most important. If and when we can and will provide better livestock, the business WILL grow. Alternatively, all these years, losing a huge part of the hobbyists due to "anomalous" losses has kept all back>
About the white spot, I think that my vet can prepare a solution with quinine... can you tell me more about that?
<Yes; though it will take too long. Instead I would have you, they read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinDosingF.htm
and the linked files above, AND elsewhere on the Net... look for Chloroquine (di)Phosphate>
For the good nutrition on the fishes, I feed 2xday with varied diet (mysis,
Artemia, Krill, ... mixed items from Gamma frozen foods, also mixed Fauna Marin pellets food and flakes for herbivores, and live copepods for Synchiropus and other finicky eaters) I hope that this is correct?
<Yes; good products, choices>
I also enrich the food 1xday with ESHa Minaroll (a polivitaminic and minerals solution)
My major worry today is to kill the existent white spot that I have in the system... If you think that quinine will be better than Cupramine I will try it.
<Well; we should talk regarding this. IF the entrenched infestation is "very bad"; I/we in the collection side REALLY do at times "nuke" the system (bleach it most often.... hypochlorite, chlorine bleach) and start again.... IF not so bad... and fish only (no algae, invert.s, plants, nor sensitive fishes... like clowns, tube-mouths...) chelated copper at full strength, checked twice daily for concentration and topped off; is the route I would go... All incoming dipped/bathed to prevent introduction. Comprende?>
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Acclimating and Treating fish      7/18/15

Hi Bob, it's Dani again
I spend all the week reading lot of information about treating ich with "Chloroquine Phosphate" but there is a lot of info around the web I see that this product will be ok for treating ich and also for use as prophylactic method, what do you think about that?
<Tis so>
If I understand I have to use 15-20 mg/L of Chloroquine Phosphate in our system every 10 days and always do a 10-15% water change prior to a new dosage.
Do you think that this will help? Are this dosages and times correct?
Thank you!!
P.D. I use the SOP acclimation in our two last shipments without any problems, buy I still having Whitespot in our system :(
<Dang! Entrenched infestations can be VERY hard to eradicate. Bob Fenner>
Re: Acclimating and Treating fish
Hi Again
Just a little question:
I get some Chloroquine from pharmacy, they're pills that contain 250 mg of Chloroquine diphosphate ( equivalent to 155 mg of "base Chloroquine") and also each pill contain some excipients like cornstarch, talc, magnesium esstearatum, hipromelosa, macrogol 400 and titanium dioxide.
<Ah yes>
This excipients will harm any of the fishes?
<They are not>
Or can I use without problem?
About the dosage... I have to calculate with 250 mg of Chloroquine diphosphate or like 150 mg of Chloroquine base? I think that with the 250 Chloroquine diphosphate, but I'm not sure
<This is about right; though considering the whole 250 mg.s as useful will not be problematical... There's a bunch of displacement and miscalculation of volume of treated water....>
Thank you!!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner> 

CP with added Oxygen     6/17/15
Hey Bob! I'm currently using CP in a QT tank @60mg/G. The product says 99% pure and up to 80mg/G can be used as a one time dose for existing ich. I played it a bit safe by dosing 40mg the first day, then 20mg the following day. I have all lights off during treatment along with U/V and skimmer.
My questions are, do you think I can run the skimmer with the cup off for added oxygen?

(It's in the middle of the sump so no chance of it getting on to the floor). Their breathing is a little heavier than normal...
Also do you think having the lights off for 10 days is going to be too stressful?
<It is not too stressful. I assure you that in the wild it can be very dark underwater for long periods>
By the way, the fishes being treated are a teardrop butterfly, Flagtail Blanquillo, and a comet. I lost my black dogface while using Cupramine at about 3.0 while waiting for the CP to arrive... He took it well for about a week, but then I found him on the bottom struggling. I moved him to my 20 gallon "copperless" QT, but he died overnight... So sad.
Thank you...
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine Phosphate Question      2/26/15
Hi Bob,
Quick question. Used CP in a good sized system. Turned Carbon and UV off for duration of treatment. Made the mistake of turning them both back on at the same time. The UV has reacted with the CP and our water is now brown. Any recommendations?
<Water changes; readministration of CP.... RMF>

Ich and CP Tx        1/7/15
Hi, Thanks for having such an informative site, and happy new year!
<And you J>
I have been reading the past few weeks on trying to cure ich. My fish have been free of it for a while and I recently upgraded and foolishly threw in a couple tangs without QT (never again, trust me: I've had heaters blow and kill fish in the meantime with transferring, been electrocuted many times, spent more money than I should with salt, water, etc).
<Dang! Trial by fire!>
Anyway I am currently dosing an approx. ~38.5 gallon total volume hospital tank with a yellow, purple, sohal, and Naso tang, 3 Anthias, small 6 line, blenny, and two clowns (they normally live in a 6' tank).
<Mmm; I would have tried treating these in place (in the main tank)... Too much stress from crowding; esp. all these surgeonfishes together in such a small volume>
Anyway, the sohal and purple tang showed up with spots when I introduced them into the tank, so I pulled all fish out on Xmas day. They recently began Tx on Saturday 1/3/15, at an initial dosage of 5/8 tsp. An additional 1/8 tsp was added on 1/4, but then I noticed some of the fish (namely the sohal and the purple tang) not eating like before. The sohal would devastate any Nori when in the tank, and now just grazes by it.
<Yes... the aforementioned stress from crowding>
The yellow and purple tang are definitely showing spots of ich now, and the sohal and yellow tang scratch their bodies on the PVC piping. Naso tang just cruises along and eats like normal, male Tierra Anthias seems uninterested in food at the moment as well.
I have been trying to find an answer to no avail, but I did a 10% water change to reduce the concentration of the CP to approx 5/8 tsp, when I noticed them last eating like normal in hopes of getting them back to eating. So I am writing you to ask if 1) does CP cause a suppression in appetite after a day or two of Tx,
<Yes it does, can.... along w/ all being jammed together>
and also, can and does ich appear even when Tx the water with CP?
<Well; the "spots" may not be Cryptocaryon if this is what you're asking.
Only can be accurately ascertained via sampling and microscopic examination>
Is CP only effective in the free swimming state of ich?
<Yes; as far as I'm aware>
Thanks for any insight, and I look forward to your response.
Re: Ich and CP Tx        1/7/15

Thanks Bob! I know the HT is a bit small,
<Way too small psychologically... Acanthurids do NOT like... am working on a title of the family presently>
fortunately for me (?) the tangs are on the smaller side, 2-3" max. The yellow tang is the most established, 2.5 years old and Max size of 3.5".
There are definitely bumps coming from the sides of its body that weren't there before.
I chose to pull them out because I was going to do hypo on them, but I realized it may be difficult to do so. So I bought some CP instead. They have been in the 40 gal breeder for about 1.5 weeks, eating normally and (still) swimming fine.
I must add, I do have coral and inverts on my DT, thus i didn't think of treating the main tank.
<Life... is a series of compromises...>
I must ask you, do you think if I keep my water good and run the CP for at least 7 more days, they may be okay?
I really want to run the CP for about 3 weeks IF I could, and from all I've been reading the CP would be contraindicated in a reef tank.
<Usually; yes... does/will kill off a BUNCH of life, cause complications that may well not be easily countered>
Again, I appreciate your insight and thoughts and you're far more of an expert than I!
Thanks again, Bob!!!
<Certainly welcome John. BobF>
<If it were mine, I'd return all these fishes to the large system, GIVEN the caveats presented on WWM for use, and try the CP there; at 15 mg/l. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich and CP Tx      1/9/15

<Hey John>
I just wanted to give you a quick update: I was able to move five small fish into a 10 gallon tank (2 clowns, 3 Anthias) and all that remains in the 40 are the tangs, a small wrasse and a blenny.
<Hope they're all getting along>
The CP is definitely showing signs in the tank where the white film is all over the inside glass. Fish do have white stringy feces, and some still aren't eating right.
<Yes; these are effects of the CP>
I had the water tested with an API ammonia kit and it is showing 8.0 ppm within a few minutes,
performed some serious water changes and then tested using the Red Sea ammonia kit and only find 0.8 on their colorimetric chart. Odd, right?
<... not really. API test kits are junk; neither accurate nor precise. See WWM re getting better assay gear>
Ammonia alert badge is showing alert levels only. Could the API test be giving me bum results?
<Assuredly; yes. Your fishes would all be dead...>
No signs of heavy breathing, fish don't show signs of ammonia toxicity.
Anyway, the spots on the yellow and purple tang have fallen off, and i hope they don't show for the duration of the treatment! None of the tangs seem to want to scratch anymore.
This is one costly non-QT mistake that I'll never make again. It's a little disheartening to know the fish didn't have to go through this if the other fish were QT'ed, and I hope I don't make them pay the ultimate price for MY mistake.
<Me too... these sorts of frustrations, losses... the lack of readily available, useful information (hence WWM) ARE the principal reasons the hobby "runs through" about 100% of "customer base" every year. Please don't leave>
Thanks for e-listening!!!
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner> 
Re: Ich and CP Tx
Happy Friday, Bob!
<And you John>
Surprisingly tangs have been getting along fine. :) They really don't paying to each other, and every once in a while they'll bicker, but nothing to the point of a death match!
<Ah, good; like many Cichlids, when crowded Tangs may get along for a while>
At one point, the sohal would "shake" or spaz as he/she swam and would rub the gill area on a pvc pipe, and then stop where the water returns from the HOB filter. But no fast gilling/breathing. It did that for most of the day, today it seemed a lot more calm and swam normally. No other tang was exhibiting this.
The only fish I am wary of is the 6 line in the same tank, it hovers in one spot in the tank, but will pick at Masago when it's dropped in the tank (i drop very little food into the hospital tanks with the ongoing "ammonia problem" I have; Red Sea test tests 2.0 ppm, and I have been using Prime and two bottles of BioSpira so far. A third bottle on the way)
The purple tang seems to have regained some appetite, and the sohal is the only one in THAT tank not eating.
<Not a problem really>
In the other tank I noticed the Anthias swimming 90 degrees vertically, face up. I thought they were goners but as soon as lights are out, they swim to the bottom and take refuge by the pipes. What gives? When i approach the tank, they are alert and dart to hide and go horizontal. Any ideas, Bob?
<Stress, the medication>
Thanks for being available for the aquatic community!!!
I trust you'll have a great weekend!
<Ah yes; thank you. BobF>

Re: Ich and CP Tx      1/11/15

Bob!!!! Great news, for me at least, :)
Looks like most fish, especially my favorite sohal, has regained their appetites! Sohal used to only eat Nori, and is back at devouring it again.
So my observations with CP Tx:
1) appetite suppression (hopefully gone by now)
2) slowness, sluggishness in behavior, I wouldn't call it lethargic though. Almost like "fish high"
3) ich appeared during treatment, but most likely ich completing the life cycle during Tx in the fish.
4) accumulation of white film on glass, and a weird smell coming from the tanks.
5) "ammonia spikes"- not sure what to make of this.
<All known effects>

Anyway, I'll update you in hopes that maybe you'll be able to share my experience on WWM so others can learn too.
Thanks Bob!
<Thank you for sharing>
Re: Ich and CP Tx       1/23/15

Mr. Bob!
<Hey John>
A quick update: I had to ditch CP as a few days ago (7-8 days) ich exploded on my sohal during tx. Thus I concluded the CP I bought, from a seller who gets his supply from Fishman Chemicals, wasn't potent or pure enough.
At least the BioSpira saved the fish from ammonia poisoning while in the HT.
At this time, I am performing tank transfer for my remaining fish. The Anthias (who don't eat by the way... ANYTHING) and clowns are in a separate tank still and have never displayed any signs or symptoms of ich. Odd.
<Does happen...>
The remaining tangs (yellow died during first couple of days into TTM, as did a wrasse) and Midas are doing well in TTM, eating normally, and not flashing. The sohal was the worst and he seems spot free at the moment and has not flashed.
I transferred them out the next morning after the sohal had the worst display of ich. Sure as day, the afternoon after the ich exploded on him, the lesions disappeared and he looked normal. Luckily and hopefully they all remained back!
Anyway, now I am tasked with getting some pure ammonia in this newly set up QT ( new water, all equipment soaked in fresh water and vinegar for a day and dried for several days) and adding some BioSpira later.
I must admit I've never had to set up an emergency, un-cycled QT before, and I must get the fish in the QT by mid next week.
Any suggestions besides using anything from the DT which has been fallow since 12/25/14?
<All posted on WWM; best to look there first>
Thanks for any insight, Bob! :)
<Cheers and thanks for the report. Bob Fenner>

mixing CopperSafe and Chloroquine phosphate      1/17/15
Hi.....I have a hippo tang and a Heniochus in my 55 gallon quarantine tank. I believe they have velvet. I currently have CopperSafe in the tank. they have been exposed to the CopperSafe for 10 days and I really don’t see any improvement. I would like to try Chloroquine phosphate. Can I add that with the CopperSafe already in the tank ?
<It can be. Do watch for the (see WWM re) usual adverse effects of CP exposure. Bob Fenner>
Re: mixing CopperSafe and Chloroquine phosphate      1/17/15

Thank you for the fast reply. Will let you know the results.
<Real good. BobF>
Re: mixing CopperSafe and Chloroquine phosphate     1/19/15

Bob, should protein skimmer be off with the Chloroquine phosphate ?
<Yes. B>
Re: mixing CopperSafe and Chloroquine phosphate       1/29/15

Here's an update on my use of the Chloroquine phosphate and some particulars about this tank. Its 55 gallons and I keep it running as a quarantine tank so there is always 2 or 3 fish in the tank. It has an aqua c remora pro skimmer and an AquaClear 100 HOB filter. Tank has live sand and I have several of the replica signature corals that I use for decoration. I have
always used CopperSafe to treat in this tank and have had good results in the past.
<Have used many gallons of this product (and some other coppers by other manufacturers); it is a very fine product; consistent and it works>
To remove the CopperSafe after treatment I use PolyFilter in the AquaClear and water changes. I added the Chloroquine phosphate at a dose of 80mg per gallon or 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons per instructions on the medication. Within about 2 hours the fish were looking great and the hippo tang had hardly any of the velvet left on its body...... it was like a miracle drug. The tank still had the CopperSafe in it also and the skimmer was turned off. About 2 days later I noticed the algae was beginning to die off and the hippo tang had stopped eating and was looking rather pale. I tested the water and discovered that the ammonia was at about .5 I have read that the Chloroquine phosphate can cause an ammonia spike and I'm not sure if it was from the dying algae or my good bacteria dying off.
<Could be either, both or even an effect of the copper presence>
There's no live rock so there was no die off of crustaceans or other life as far as I know. I did a 20 gallon water change and added a new PolyFilter and fresh carbon to remove both meds and I also turned the skimmer back on. Heniochus was eating normal during all of this but was just looking pale. I did another water change the following day of 12 gallons and then an 8 gallon change the day after that. The skimmate was very dark and there was a lot. I suspect that was the dead algae. Water still remained very clear this whole time. My ammonia was still reading .25 to .5 I put a large bottle of Instant Ocean Bio Spira in the tank that’s supposed to be good for tanks up to 75 gallons. The next day the ammonia was at zero and both fish look great. Hippo tang is still not eating but swimming normal<ly>. Heniochus is eating and looking great. I did read on Bob Goemans site that the Chloroquine phosphate can be dangerous for hippo and powder blue tangs. I'm hoping my hippo comes out of this but perhaps he has permanent damage.......Time will tell.
<Yes; thanks for the news. Bob Fenner>

Re: Harlequin Tusk     10/17/14
Hi again. I have another question. If I do have to treat the tusk, is quinine sulfate ok? I know different fish are affected by different meds. I just want to be prepared.
<S/b fine; Labrids are no more/less sensitive than other fish families. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment
Dear WMM Crew,
I wanted to share an experience and get your guidance, in hopes that this might help out others as well as myself.
<Please do>
For the last 9 months or so I've been trying to get my 370 angel/butterfly tank off the ground, but I've been battling some issues with what appears to be Ich and Marine Velvet (I purchased a microscope, and though it is a bit difficult to tell for certain, it appears to resemble the slides I've seen on your site and in books.) I had followed proper QT procedures both for the initial introduction, and also for subsequent fallow periods (I have about 250 gallons of QT in 5 separate tanks, 2 times I've removed all fish from DT and put them in QT with Copper for 8-10 weeks, and once with Chloroquine for the same period), but despite this I've still run into issues a week or two upon reintroducing some of the fish into the DT.
<Happens... you may well have entrenched protozoan issues in your main/display... that are "surfacing" in/on new introductions>
So I got my hands on some Quinine and also Chloroquine from National Fish Pharmacy and Fishman Chemical respectively, as I seemed to have a strain of Ich/MV that was copper resistant
<This is also been conjectured for a few years; make that decades>

(I tried both Cupramine and CopperSafe separately, used multiple test kits to ensure proper dosage &c.) The copper seemed to hide the symptoms, but once I would remove it after say 30 days, the symptoms would return-and since I have angel's and butterflies, I didn't want to continue using copper.
I've established that I CAN rid the Ich/MV from my QT by using Chloroquine, as the fish don't show any signs of symptoms after the treatment in the QT (I have several QT's, and when I would remove the medicine with Polyfilter or Carbon, I wouldn't see new symptoms even after 3 weeks of no meds, something that I always saw with Copper within about 5 days). But even after letting my DT go fallow for up to 10 weeks, I don't think that the parasites were completely eliminated as symptoms would return to the fish about a week or two after re-introduction (I would only put a few back in, not all of the fish), and would quickly spread to epidemic proportions even with 120W of UV which has new bulbs, and appropriate flow per Emperor Aquatics.
So now onto the question(s).
I've removed all inverts / corals from my DT, which is primarily a FOWLR tank. Even when dosing Chloroquine in the DT, it seems that I still have not eliminated the pests entirely. The difference is perhaps that I do have Live Rock and Sand in there. I've been reading on some various forums, and also in Ed Noga's book, and he recommends using Chloroquine + Hypo (at about 12-13 ppt) for 30 days to really pack a 1-2 punch on any issues with Ich/Velvet. I've personally never done Hypo before, and I wanted to get your opinion on if you would recommend this approach-or something else? I am fully confident that I can carry out the protocol properly, and have a refractometer, and also water test kits to ensure the I do have a few red sea/generally sensitive fish, but they haven't minded the treatments so far and their adults so they seem to be pretty hardy. Just wasn't sure if doing Hypo would be dangerous with them?
<Not as much as the parasitic infestation... in other words: no>

While I can certainly catch all of the fish out and move them to QT's, I'm worried that at this point that might be more traumatic then treating them in the DT, especially since they have so much more room within that tank than in the QT's, and also the DT is well established with a biofilter, so there is 0 ammonia / nitrite, and I keep nitrates < 10 with water changes, which is harder to keep on top of with 5 QT's that will be more heavily stocked if I remove all the fish from the DT.
My preference at this point would be to treat the fish in the DT (basically as a large scale QT), and wait to reintroduce any inverts for at least 6 months or so. But if you feel that this is the wrong approach, I can certainly pull all the fish out again, I've just not been able to rid it in the past, but perhaps I wasn't waiting long enough.
As a side note to your readers, I used both Quinine and Chloroquine. I noticed that the Quinine appeared to be much harsher on the fish than Chloroquine.
<Yes; generally so>
When I would dose Quinine, the fish would turn dark, some would breath heavily, and most would lose appetite for a few days, even had a couple of fatalities with smaller fish. I never noticed any such symptoms with Chloroquine, and they seem to be equally effective in my QT's. Also note, snails seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT). I have several different kinds, and haven't noticed any fatalities. I did test with shrimp starfish and snails, and they do not handle this treatment and will quickly perish. Same goes with Coral, for the treatment, my suggestion is to remove all coral and non-crab inverts and put them in an unmedicated tank if treating your DT.
<Yes; for sure>

No urgency for the response on this holiday weekend, just trying to plan my next steps. I have Chloroquine in the DT right now, and it seems to be keeping the parasites at bay, but not 100% eliminating them. I spoke to Fishman, and they recommended rather than just doing a single dose every 7-10 days, to do daily doses at ¼ strength after the initial dose to ensure that the medication does not fall below the efficacious threshold.
<I concur>
I'm 3 days into that approach, and was thinking if this doesn't work then I need to try another approach.
Best Regards and Thanks much as always!
<Again; thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment

Thanks so much Bob for the lightning fast response!
I just wanted to make one edit to my previous post. I accidentally said that snails tolerated the Quinine/Chloroquine treatments, but this was exactly what I meant not to say. The previous post said ". Also note, snails seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT)". However this should have read: ". Also note, <<Crabs>> seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT). " Just want to make sure that anyone reading this understands that Crabs and Not snails tolerate the treatment. Snails, Bristleworms, Starfish, Shrimp, and Corals will perish.
I will keep you and everyone posted with my progress (or lack thereof) with the treatment/outcome.
<Thank you for this clarification>
Best Regards,
<And you, BobF>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment      6/5/14

Hi Bob and Team,
<Hey there Brad>
Just a follow up. It's been 1.5 weeks since my last email when I initiated hyposalinity treatment + Chloroquine. To date I haven't seen much of any improvement (no fatalities but no improvement), and I'm wondering if perhaps at this stage I've eliminated the Ich/marine velvet and perhaps have flukes (since I've been treating with Chloroquine for about 2 months now, and don't see the trademark ick spots, nor the velvety coating/rapid breathing, just some scattered white spots, some fin fraying, and a few spots in the eyes.
<It is indeed possible. Trematodes are almost always present on marine fishes in the wild...>
interesting that it isn't on all fish, just a few. Some fish show no signs at all. I'm beginning to think maybe I still have some form of flukes/monogeans. It definitely doesn't appear to be anything bacterial or fungal.
<... do you have access to a simple microscope? Sampling and looking is simple...>
From what I can see researching online, I'm not sure that either hyposalinity or Chloroquine would treat flukes (just some anecdotal evidence on forums, but nothing concrete.)
<Mmm; they will not. Straight pH adjusted freshwater WITH formalin will eliminate external (body and gill) flukes... Otherwise, the use of Anthelminthics like Prazi/pro is advised>
I don't want to rush into anything but wanted to seek your guidance on treatment. Should I continue to treat with Hyposalinity/Chloroquine?
<I would not. You've already gone long enough with this M.O.>
Maybe I should pull the Chloroquine with water changes/poly filters, but hold the hyposalinity? The other option I was thinking was to pull the Chloroquine and treat with Praziquantel at hyposalinity levels.
<I'd be reading... THEN doing dips while moving the fish livestock, THEN treating them with Prazi>
I've used Prazi prophylactically in the past for my reef tank fish with Copper. Not sure if it would be ok to treat with it + hyposalinity. Seems like an easier treatment on the fish. I could also punt and continue the current path, but usually in my experience you notice a change in symptoms when you are affecting a cure within a few days, and the multiple weeks of treatment is to ensure you eradicate everything + give your DT time to kill off the parasites.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
Best Regards,
<... wish we could do "the Vulcan mind-meld... am about as olde as Spock!)... reading re Trematodes, 'scope use, the compounds mentioned... Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment      6/5/14

Thanks Bob!
<Welcome Brad>
I do have a microscope, and just got oil for 40x+ resolution, and also a USB adapter so I can take pictures and share. I agree with not doing trial by elimination treatments, and not opposed to pulling all of the fish again for treatment. Just wanted to avoid that if possible as to not stress the fish out more if there was a simpler coarse.
<Course; and better to sample, know what is on your fishes>
Will ponder this a bit more and dig around WMM some more along with pulling out Ed Noga's book for more research after I catch a candidate fish and collect the samples. Just wanted to follow up in case if there was something else obvious that I was missing.
All the best,
<Not that I know of. Cheers, B>

CP... and light     6/2/14
Hello Bob, Kathy here again. Sorry for the bother but I have been searching the web and WWM for an answer to my question and have not been able to find what I am looking for. As you already know, I had an outbreak of Brook in my quarantine tank. I had been previously using Cupramine and PraziPro to quarantine all new fish but this time I noticed I had Brook and after a couple days of searching the web decided to order some Chloroquine phosphate. I have dosed my quarantine tank but kept my fluorescent lights on 8 hours a day like I usually do and did not realize until now that the CP breaks down with light. The tank is a 300 gallon quarantine tank with 2 48inch fluorescent bulbs. My question is, do you think that lighting can break down the CP?
If so, what should I do now?
<Change water and re-treat>
When is it safe to redose and how much should I redose?
<Per percentage of water changed out>
I added the CP yesterday morning. The lights were on for 8 hours yesterday and for another 8 hours today. Thank you in advance for any help you may be able to offer.
<Welcome. B>
CP use, source of info. on protocol for sampling, microscope use      6/6/14

Hello! Kathy here again. Thank you for answering my previous question regarding CP and it breaking down with light. I changed out 25% and redosed the CP with 1/4 of the original dose. Now I just have one more question I am hoping you can help me with. I will be redosing with CP after 10 days of the initial dose. My question is can I dose Cupramine and CP concurrently?
<Yes; but for what use? Mixing med.s does "weaken the patients" in most cases>
Cupramine is so easy to test for and I guess I am just afraid that maybe I am not dosing enough CP and I don't want to dose too much and threes just no way to test for it. So I was hoping I can dose and maintain my QT at about .30 of Cupramine while dosing with CP at 40mg per gallon every 10 days and also adding PraziPro once every 7 days. Is this ok to do?
<Can be done>
Also I will be purchasing a microscope
<Ah, good!>
and was wondering where I can find the best information regarding how to skin scrape fish to check under the scope and pictures on all the diseases the way they look under the microscope. Thanks again in advance for your help.
<The single best reference is Ed Noga's "Fish Disease; Diagnosis and Treatment"... first or second edition. Can be purchased as an eBook on Amazon I believe; perhaps borrowed through a library service. BobF>

Quinine sulphate not pure... Removing the filler       4/8/14
‎Hi guys ,Mr. Fenner. I was able ‎ to get quinine sulphate. But... it's not pure.. (just quinine) The capsules contains 200 mg of pure quinine sulphate, but also contain = stearic acid, corn starch, sodium lauryl sulphate...=
Is this OK to dose in a Qtank? Please advise Thanks in advance Luigi.
<Mmm; likely okay to use... I'd kick up (increase) aeration... wick or dip out the corn starch next day (from the surface). Bob Fenner>
Re: Quinine sulphate not pure      4/8/14

Thank you so much Mr. Fenner
Will do
Really appreciate the advice
Thanks again
<Ah welcome. BobF>

Quinine Sulfate Dosage      1/19/14
Probably a silly question.  I wanted to double check as there is so much conflicting information with exact dosage on the quinine sulfate.
<Yes; a range>
If you were treating a 40 gallon bare bottom QT (Heater, and canister filter (no media) tank how would you dose quinine sulfate from NFP for the treatment of Ich.  The directions on the label are as follows.
*"Fish Disease Treatment*: For small aquariums: Use 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water.  Treat every 24 hrs. with a 25% water change before each treatment.
<One method>
For large aquariums (above 50 gallons), ponds and central systems: Treat one time and leave in the water for 7 days."
<With the lights off>
I don't want to overdose as there are toxicities with this drug.  At the same time treatment is a bare bottom QT tank, and I want to do water changes to ammonia, and Nitrites undetectable?
 I also don't want to under dose as I will not get the efficacy I am looking for.  I would appreciate your opinion.
Thank You
<If you/I changed water out, I would re-treat w/ the corresponding amount of Quinine. BobF>
Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage     1/21/14

Thank you for your quick response.  I was just going through your book "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist", and just wanted to let you know that its one of the best written, and perfectly formatted aquarium books in the industry.  Every time I read it I always learn something new.
<Ahh; thank you for your kind, encouraging words>
Anyways I just wanted to clarify further from your response below.  From the directions on the quinine sulfate label I would do as follows for a 40 gallon bare bottom tank
1/4 tsp for every ten gallons (1tsp total), and every day do a 25% water change (10 gallons), and administer 1/4 tsp per gallon of quinine sulfate.
I would keep lights off on the aquarium.  My opinion is this is a great dose for larger less sensitive fish species.
From your response below. I would treat 1/4 tsp for every ten gallons (1tsp total).  Do my regular water changes unless ammonia, or nitrites spike. So 5 gallons a day, and when replacing the five gallons I would then add 1/8 of a tsp of quinine sulfate back into the aquarium.  So basically its just one dose of the quinine sulfate, and replacing what you take out?
 How long would you keep the fish  in treatment?  Ten days assuming there is no Ich present on them? 
<Yes; about this long. Ended if the fishes appear overly stressed>
I would further add that when I am doing my five gallon changes I am siphoning the bottom of the tank.  I understand there are multiple methods as sometimes treatment is an art and not an exact science (depends on the species being treated), but I am interested in how you use the quinine sulfate.
<In foods where possible... Do you have one of the editions of Ed Noga, "Fish Diseases; Diagnosis and Treatment"?>
As always thank you so much for all your guidance,
<Certainly welcome. BobF>
Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage     1/25/14

<Hey Nick>
Thank you so much for your quick responses.  I just bought Ed Noga's book.
I figured it was time to pay my dues as the money will further our knowledge and treatment of fish diseases. 
<Ah yes; it/this is the premier collection on the topic currently>
Quick question on acclimation,
and QT of mandarin and blennies?  There seems to be conflicting advise out there, and just wanted to clarify.
<Yes; there's even a bit re in this month's TFH Q & A re>
For a canary blenny  would you acclimate directly to the display tank, and do a pH adjusted freshwater Methylene blue dip that has been temperature controlled, and aerated for an hour?  You would dip the fish for a couple of minutes (minimum 2), and then put directly in the display.
<Dips for most all; IF questionable, with formalin... gone over on WWM:
Mandarins same as above (have 2 display tanks.  They will be separated)?
<Dips at least (pH adjusted, freshwater, aerated if RO>
Basically my question is, no QT for these fish as the chances of carrying Ich are slim due to their slimy coats. 
<Mmm, yes; but best to "knock off" any external that's easily done with dips/baths enroute>
Chances of death in QT due to
starvation is high.  Is this a correct conclusion of what you would do?
<It is my standard spiel... Again; if, if, if... IF you were an importer, perhaps a high volume e- or retailer, just the SOP of the baths w/ or sans formalin... As an earnest hobbyist/end-user, isolation if you have time, the facilities IF the specimens are in "good shape">
Thank you as always for your advice.
<What I do. B>

feeding quinine sulfate to marine fish
hi guys
i really hope you guys could help me out
i have a 400 gallon reef tank with a few tangs an angels recently a few fish picked up Ich after a long power cut i do not want to dose the dt with any meds and currently don't have a qt the option Im looking at is feeding medicated food [quinine sulfate] as i managed to get a few of these tablets,300mg per tab my question is, if i crush up the tablets into a fine powder an add a little bit
<.... I'd see WWM, elsewhere re dosage>

to each feeding, will this have the desired effect and help the fish also is there any risk of overdosing the food?
<Very small>
i plan on using some SeaChem focus to bind the QS to the food
i also have a uv light and ozone reactor up and running to try and control the parasites thanks in advance
<Good luck, life to you. Bob Fenner>
Re: feeding quinine sulfate to marine fish

thanks a mil
<Welcome. BobF>

Re: DIY Sulfur reactor design - request schematic review?    3/4/13
Bob - thank you. Would biopellets or the sulfur reactor have any interaction/interference with Chloroquine phosphate?
<I don't know; but wish I did. Perhaps as the folks that supply CP if they are aware of such interactions. Their links can be found on WWM, under "Quinine Sources". Bob Fenner>

Re Chloroquine phosphate; more re dosing      1/16/13
Dear crew,
 I been researching out the dosage methodology for Chloroquine phosphate and am wondering if there are different strengths of CP?  Reason I ask is I've been researching out on forums, WWM and talking to various people and everybody has got a different dosing regimen. Could this be due to a different strength of CP? For example the capsule that I have a 750 mg.
There is also so much confusion as to whether you can overdose with CP or not. Thank you, Jennifer.
<According to Ed Noga (Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment, 2d ed., Chloroquine Diphosphate is administered in a one time or re-dosed amount (of 10 mg./l) depending on what one is treating. The actual "active ingredient" may vary by source, so one would have to factor this in... Does this make sense? IF only "50% ingredient" (the rest filler/s), one would have to double the dosage... CP is non-toxic to fishes; but can be to macro-, micro-algae and some invertebrate groups.
Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich Chloroquine   1/17/13

It does make sense. I am actually treating for Ich. I received 750 mg capsules from Fishman chemical but there is nothing on the package as to the percentage active and inactive ingredients, if any. 
<Ahh, do contact them. FWIW, Noga mentions the co. specifically in his dosage recommendations>
The recommended dosage from Fishman was 1500mg for initial dose (20 gal QT). I have read where people have dosed twice as much this and had great results.
<Yes... almost non-toxic to fishes... see re other life though if present>
 I started out with 750mg and within a few hours fish were breathing rapidly, lethargic and not eating. Does this sound like they were overdosed ?
<Possibly; though could be evidence of other...>
After three days there was no improvement so I did a water change. For the last four days they've been fine but as of this morning the Clown fish and Blenny have been sitting on the bottom of the tank breathing rapidly. I was going to attempt dosing Chloroquine phosphate again but am hesitate to due to no clear cut dosing regimen and the question of strength of CP. By the way at this time none of the fish have spots but it's only been seven days they were given the original dose. I have read everything I can get my hands on regarding CP. I am at a complete loss as to what to do next, if anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Jennifer
<I encourage you to pay for a download of Noga, 2d ed... Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich Chloroquine

Thanks, Bob. I'm going to get the book tonight. I've been researching as to whether their behavior could be a secondary bacterial infection (rapid breathing, lethargy, loss of appetite).
There are no spots on any fish. I've been doing a lot of water changes, siphoning the bottom of the tank but I'm sure Ich has not been eradicated. If it is Ich could it affect the gills before showing up on their body/fins?
<Oh yes; assuredly. The spots are actually only evidence of irritation, mucus, on the body>
Would a freshwater dip with Methylene help or do you think he's too stressed to handle one?
<A tough call. I wouldn't do so if the fish/es are already in duress. B>
 Thanks again, Jen
Re: Ich Chloroquine...    1/18/13

I did get the book from Noga.  I moved the Clowns and the Blenny into another QT yesterday. The Blenny died last night. Clowns are just swaggering on the bottom of the tank breathing hard. No visible signs of anything (spots, mucus, etc). Do you think it is worth a try to treat with CP at this point?
<Yes I do; I would>
 I do have Dr. G Antiparasitic on hand (which I fed before I received the CP) but since they are not eating that is a moot point.  On a separate note I believe the CP I received from Fishman must be stronger. The reason I say that is Dr. Fishman gave me a dosage of 2g/100 gallons. That is 1/2 of the recommended dose in Noga's book (40mg/g). 
<Welcome. BobF>
Re: Ich Chloroquine

Hi Bob, I just an interesting conversation with Mr. Fishman at Fishman chemicals. He told me that they do not recommend Chloroquine phosphate for velvet. But in Mr. Noga's book he recommends CP for velvet. He also told me of a product that they recommend to treat Ich called Batryl (Enrofloxacin).  Have you ever heard of this?
 I am in the processing of researching it now.  Jen
<Real good. BobF, transiting through Narita, Japan, on the way to Manila>
Re: Ich Chloroquine

Manila...is this for work or play?
<There now; and a bit of both>
  Well, thank you for getting back to me even though you're traveling.  The Royal Gramma died early this morning. I'm almost convinced that this is not Ich. I retrieved his body this morning he had white stringy mucus coming from his gills, his eyes are cloudy and it looks like he has patches of fuzziness on him so I'm thinking it might be Velvet or Brook.  I'm in the process of doing more research right now.  We have a Marine Science center in town and I'm thinking about taking him down there and see if they can do gill scrapings to diagnose.
<A good idea>
 I still have two clowns in a QT and are not showing any improvement so I still have to treat  them. Enjoy your trip, be safe, talk to you later. Thanks! Jen
<Salamat. BobF>

Quinine Sulfate question    1/10/13
Hello again Crew,
I am on day 3 of treatment with quinine sulfate (Crypto-pro) in a hospital tank. So far so good. I have been dosing 1/8 tsp per gallon (29 gallon treatment tank) every 24 hours with 25% water change before treatment per the label on the package.
 I have seen many people question this dosage, with the explanation that it degrades quickly, especially with UV light. My treatment tank has no lighting fixture. I do have two sensitive species, and I'm worried that it may be possible to reach toxic levels by the end of treatment if it is not degrading as quickly as I am adding it.
 I'd appreciate your input... as I'd hate to inadvertently overdose. The fish have been doing very well thus far. Are there warning signs to keep watch for? Perhaps due to the sensitive nature of my fish, it would be wise to slightly lengthen the time between doses (36-48 hours?)
 <I think you're okay here w/ this regimen, or with lengthening the time twixt re-dosing>

<Welcome. BobF>

Re: Ich Chloroquine, dosing       1/8/12
Dear crew,
I've obtained Chloroquine Phosphate from Fishman Chemicals. They gave me the following dosing recommendation:  1 capsule (750 mg) everyday for 10 days with 1-2 gallon water changes everyday prior to dose. I have fish in a 20gallon QT.
<! That's a lot of CP!>
 I have yet to see that dosing schedule in any of my research. Bob Goemans recommendation is: "recommend an initial 20 mg/l, so that’s twice the amount you’re planning on. Thereafter, a 10mg/l dosage every 7 – 10 days for the next three treatments. (total of 4 treatments)". I want to get started on this (clown is not looking good) but I want to be 100% sure I'm doing the right dosage. What is WWMs recommendation?  Thank you again! Jen
<I concur w/ BobG's stated regimen. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich Chloroquine      1/8/12

Dear Bob,
 From what I am gathering I thought it was a lot as well.  I am glad I got a second opinion. I don't understand why I was told to dose that much.
<Me neither... is it a percentage of actual ingredient issue? I'd ask the source>
 Perhaps I was not speaking with the proper person. Anyway, I will begin dosing as per Mr. Goemans recommendation.  I have not runaway across any information for water changes as part of the regimen. Are they recommended? If so will I need to add CP back in? 
<I'd be monitoring water quality at least daily, re-dosing for the percentage changed out>
Thank you again! Jen
<Welcome. BobF>
Re: Ich Chloroquine

I think I will call them tomorrow and find out. I will monitor water for any problems. Thank you! Jen
<Welcome. B>
Re: Ich Chloroquine      1/8/12

 I would like to check something with you. The capsules I received are 750mg. The regimen calls for 20mg/liter. I have a 20 gallon QT.  Wouldn't I have to add 2 capsules on the initial dose?
Thank you again, Jen
<Mmm, let's see... There's about 4 liters to a gallon... times twenty gallons... 80 liters... 20 mg each... about 1,600 mg... so two times 750 is right about right. B>
Re: Ich Chloroquine      1/9/12

Lol that's how I figured it:) Let me ask you I have seen some people recommending 40mg/gallon 1 time dose. Leave fish in tank for 3-4 weeks. They say eradicated the Ich.  What do you think of this regimen?  Jen
<Can work. B>

Using Chloroquine Phosphate continuously on a FOWLR    9/25/12
HI WWM crew,
                I have a question for you.  Have you come across anyone that is trying/has tried to use CP as a daily additive to eradicate Crypto?
<Yes; it's done "all the time">
  I have tried going fallow on my tank for 8 weeks but it came back.  I was thinking about adding the recommended dose of 1/8 tsp per 10 gallons daily for 8-10 weeks.  Remove the carbon but continue to run the skimmer and the BRS biopellets for ammonia and nitrate removal.  Water changes as needed to keep water quality up. Lights could be kept off for the duration as well although if you were adding it over an extended period of time I’m not sure if the lights would make that much of a difference.
<Not much>
  Thoughts on this approach?
<Worth trying>
It will likely cost a bit more in the long run for the medication and the water changes but it seems like this would allow for all the life cycles of the parasite and since it normally does not adversely affect the fish it should be a win/win.
Thanks for any advise!
<Cheers, B>

Chloroquine spectrometer measurement     8/19/12
Aloha Crew!
Thanks for the invaluable forum for people keeping livestock in closed aquaria!
<Howdy Tim!>
Here's a tough one for you...
Anyone know the spectrum to measure Chloroquine diphosphate with a spectrophotometer? 
<I see quite a few listings that could be searched... via Google, using the string: "Chloroquine spectrometer measurement">
I'm having a difficult time tracking this information down.  I feel this may be helpful to determine correct dosage for Chloroquine treatment of fish in large water volumes where the exact volume is not known and cannot be measured precisely.
<Would be very useful>
 I have access to a photospectrometer to analyze samples of my water if I know what to look for.  My next contact will be to the manufacturers of both the chemical and the spectrometer for answers.
I wanted to post here in case anyone else wondered or knew.
I have been using Chloroquine for months now off and on in various tanks for different fish, mainly Butterflyfish that show visible symptoms however everyone has it since they are in the same tank.  For Cryptocaryon, it seems to be an effective treatment and I recommend it over copper for angel/Butterflyfish.  I've read fish can handle dosages up to 20mg/L (some even more); but I use 10 mg/L that will suppress visible signs of Ich within a few days, however I also administer 10 minute fw dips concurrently.  So far no negative results with very delicate angels and butterflies.  have run constantly for over four weeks duration at 10mg/L concentration with no visible ill effects.  The med does seem to inhibit biological activity- this is in a bare bottom hospital tank with only fluidized sand for biological filtration through a sump, and treatment (for me) requires constant water changes and cleaning with the moderate-heavy quarantine fish stocking I was keeping as a result of my heavy feeding regime (I want to keep my Butterflyfish constantly fed and).
One point I wanted to make was that I did NOT eliminate the crypto permanently...Medicine may have suppressed Ich visually but I did not totally cleanse all my fish (or the system) of the Ich.  [Very good chance this was due to improper sterile procedure or quarantine protocol between systems as there are six different systems running in one room and I am not the only person who has his hands in them.]
I just wanted to post that Ich is very persistent and difficult to fully eradicate.  Fish health and system environment health seem to be the best bet with preventative treatment.
<These are hard won observations, and facts...>
I would also like to point out that hyposalinity treatment is also very effective at Ich suppression  (cannot remove, isolate, QT etc.) for an outbreak in a stocked display tank.  I kept fish on display at 15 ppt for over 8 weeks before I noticed any abnormal behavior (possibly) from the lowered salinity.  Again, this treatment did not eradicate the Ich, merely suppressed it until I could setup another location/way to treat the fish.
Thanks again for all your work and information on this site...I find tons of info here without having to write in to bother you guys.  Hopefully in less than a year I will be able to write back with info/ weblinks to the system I am building to show you an aquarium environment with splendid specimens living healthy carefree lives in captivity.  For now I have a lot of work to do to get there....
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Therapeutic <prophylactic> levels of Chloroquine Phosphate      8/6/12
Hi WWM crew!
I am wondering if you have heard of or have any experience with trying to keep therapeutic levels of CP in a FOWLR tank?
  I know that light, skimmer and carbon quickly remove CP from the system but if it was added in maybe half dosage (1/16 tsp per 10G) every day do you think it would maintain in the system?
<? I wouldn't do this... you mean, maintain a preventative/prophylactic concentration on an ongoing basis I take it>
 I know that it is not supposed to harm the bacteria but would extended dosing past the typical 10 day treatment have adverse effects?

 It seems that if it did not it would be good for keeping potential outbreaks of Ich in check and would eventually wipe out any that was present.
Thanks for the info if you have it.
<Please read on WWM re the use of CP, Quinine compounds. Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine Phosphate dosing     7/24/12
Bob and crew
I was hoping you could clear up some confusion with what would be conceived as the proper dosing of Chloroquine Phosphate.  It seems that there several differences of opinion and I'm afraid one may lead to overdose while another might not be quite strong enough.  Below are the recommendations from three different sources
Thomas Labs:
Fish Quine Forte Powder - Chloroquine Phosphate - 400mg
Directions: Add one scoop (1/8 teaspoon 400mg) into aquarium for each 10 gallons of water to be treated. Repeat in 24 hours. It is suggested that a partial water change be made between treatments.
<Yes to the water changes, monitoring closely the apparent health/behavior of the fishes being treated>
 While duration of treatment depends on type and severity of infection, it is recommended that extended medication baths continue for no more than 10 days. Discontinue treatment if no improvement is noted within 5 days.
Fishman Chemicals LLC:
Chloroquine Phosphate - 400mg   As per phone conversation with Dr. Fishman
Add one scoop (1/8 teaspoon 400mg) into aquarium for each 10 gallons of water to be treated 2 times a day for the first three days with a 25% water change each day between doses then dose once each day for seven more days with a 25% water change between each dose.   Dr. Fishman also indicated that it is very difficult to overdose Chloroquine and cited that Sea World has in fact used it at triple strength with any major side effects
Bob Goemans:

His dosage is based on MG/L but the conversions work out close to the manufacturers above. His recommendation for basic QT is a one time addition of 1/8 teaspoon per ten gallons to be left in the water for 10-days then hold stock for 20 days to assure health.  For a disease outbreak, he recommends a one time double dose of 1/4 teaspoon per ten gallons for the first 7-days then add an additional dose of 1/8 teaspoon per ten gallons every seven days for a treatment period of 40 days I just want to make sure I am adding the proper amount to thoroughly complete a quarantine period. I have been reading a few of the reef boards and most are using the onetime (one and done) dose so I am afraid that the everyday full strength dose with an in between water change might be overdosing my fish.  In your vast experience, what would be your recommendation as I know you are a big fan of the quinine meds?
<Yes... I agree more w/ the first two treatment moda input than w/ BobG's.
Bob Fenner>
Thank you in advance
Re: Chloroquine Phosphate dosing     7/24/12

<Hey Tom>
Thank you for the quick replay, I too agree with your assessment I am leaning toward the directions from Thomas Labs which essentially is the same regime and Fishman Chemicals but does not have the first three days of double doses.
<Cheers, BobF>

Re: re: Addended... Quinine dosing  10/21/11
<Big T>
Reading through all the posts from the WWM link you sent me, I am just a bit confused as to the proper dosage and dosing procedure for the QS, seems everyone is doing it slightly different and for varying degrees in time.
<Mmm, yes>
I am running poly pads and carbon as of yesterday to remove the three weeks worth of Cupramine and should have the QS delivered on Tuesday.
<Should be fine>
I have exactly 110 gallons of water in the 150 gallon QT tub. What is the correct dosage of QS,
<Umm, whose product are you using? An ex.:
for each treatment, how many treatments and each treatments time duration. I have come this far, (5-weeks) I have a good bio filter bed established in all the sponge filters so I don't want to under or overdose the QS to the point that I would have to start all over again.
<Shouldn't mal-affect nitrification. B>
Also, will the QS destroy my bio filtration to the point I will have to start using Prime or Amquel+ to help with ammonia?
Re: re: Addended 10/22/11

That is the company I purchased both products from they are:
1 CPBox Crypto-Pro, Retail Box
1 Q950 Quinine Sulfate Powder, 50 Grams.
I purchased both because the way I understood the description was the Crypto Pro was a diluted (half strength) version of the straight QS powder
<... I would be asking these folks what dosage they recommend. I have no idea what the actual concentration of their products are. BobF>
Re: re: Addended. Quinine dosing, Leopard Wrasse wrangling   10/23/11

Thanks, I will touch base with National Fish Pharmaceutical regarding the directions and dosage. On a separate note, I think I already know the answer to this question but I figured I would ask anyway, as you are aware, I drained my entire display and frag tank to catch all the fish so they would remain fallow for 8 - 12 weeks.
<Ahh, a pain, but the best route to go>
Unfortunately I was unable to catch my Guinea fowl leopard wrasse as he had buried himself somewhere in the sand while the tank was emptied and I had coral exposed to the air for over an hour while I tried to hunt him down.
I was forced to refill the tanks to avoid losing coral. Technically my display is not fallow with him in there but I understand they are extremely resistant to Ich not to mention that they don't QT well to begin with.
<Do track that Macropharyngodon, and scoop up where it dives into the sand w/ a large/r mesh net... shake the sand out...>
Am I making a mistake leaving him in the tank while the other fish are being treated?
<Yes. Macropharyngodon's are very resistant to death by external parasites... being very slimy... but are great carriers>
I have had him over three years; he is about 5" long and a gorgeous shade of teal with blue and reddish black stripes. I purchased one of the fish traps by Aqua medics two weeks ago but he laughs at it as he swims past and I'm afraid he won't be caught. Am I setting myself up for failure by reintroducing clean qt'd fish in another 3 - 6 weeks if he has been in tank all this time or is it imperative I find a way to catch him and start the fallow period countdown from that time.
<See above... move the sand about w/ a stiff dowel... till you can scoop this fish out. BobF>
Re: Addended. QS dosing, Macropharyngodon capture   10/27/11

Quinine Sulfate arrived yesterday but I held off treating the QT tub because I was intent on catching that D@*# Guinea fowl leopard wrasse and getting him into that QT tub along with a new Male/female pair of KJ Rhomboid wrasses and a new Male/female pair of Lineatus wrasses both of which arrived yesterday and have been in separate 20-gallon QT tanks since their acclimation.
All weekend long I tried one of the Aqua medic fish traps, came very close but he never went into the trap as far as needed to close the door. I tried the large nets and dowel trick after he retired for the night, found his bedtime spot and thought I would have a good shot at getting him that way but to no avail.
This afternoon on my way home from work I passed a bait & tackle shop and said what do I have to lose? I purchased some #24 and #26 trout hooks and after baiting the hook with a semi large piece of plankton, much to my surprise he took the food and seconds later was out of the tank, wrapped in a towel while I gently removed the barb less hook from his mouth and placed him in my sump while I prepare a Tupperware container filled with Silica sand to put in the QT tub.
I contacted National Fish Pharmaceutical regarding the dosing and they said since I have a large enough QT tub, I can use 1/4 teaspoon per every ten gallons but I am able to treat for seven days straight (no water change) until after the seventh day has eclipsed, perform a water change then wait another week if I want and can treat again for another full seven days just to be safe.
Just figured I would update you on the successful capture of a VERY elusive leopard wrasse and I can now start the fallow display countdown.
Thanks again for your help
Thanks for the update Tom. B

Warning to others not to dose display tank/cleaner shrimp deaths in mixed reef tank. QS and Crustaceans    8/18/11
Sorry, sent the message before finishing part two. If you could delete the part that says "part two" I would appreciate it! Here is part two.
<Will do>
Over the last two weeks I have slowly added some LPS and soft corals with at least 6 inches spacing between species. They seem to be thriving and growing, tentacles open, accepting food and showing much-improved color over when received. The tank will be run fallow for another 6 weeks before adding fish. Most of the other life has slowly returned to the tank with a thriving snail, copepod and mini brittle-star population once again ( and some really cool macro-algae, with no fish to eat it!)
What's strange is that I have lost 3 cleaner shrimp in the last week with no apparent signs of damage or disease. I have had the shrimp for 2 years and they were large and healthy. The tank is a standard AGA 125 with two aqua c remora pro's, two Koralia 1400's, a HOB refugium with Chaeto, and a Fluval fx5 that runs Purigen, Chemi pure and carbon ( changed monthly) and no sponge filters. Could the deaths be after-effects of the quinine sulphate or possibly the chemical warfare going on between my LPS and softies (I have two leathers in tank)?
<Mmm, yes; more likely the former>
I would have thought that the carbon, Chemi-pure, Purigen and bi-weekly water changes would help with the chemical warfare between my corals if that is the culprit. All water parameters are excellent, including ph at 8.4 and salinity at 1.025. Temp runs around 80 degrees consistently. Any thoughts?
<Yes; there are a few groups that don't take well to quinine cpd. exposure. Crustaceans are one of the more sensitive. Bob Fenner>
Thanks as always for your help and insights into helping solve this mystery!
Begin forwarded message:> Subject: Warning to others not to dose display tank/cleaner shrimp deaths in mixed reef tank   8/18/11
> Good morning,
> After returning from vacation 5 weeks ago, I came home to an unbelievably bad outbreak of Cryptocaryon. The fish were covered head to tail in what looked like a fine dusting of sugar. In a last ditch, and knowingly stupid effort to save the fish, I dosed my display tank with quinine sulphate, hoping it might help rid the tank once and for all of this evil! Wrong!>
> Apart from killing all the starfish, snails, urchins and countless other life ( which I was aware would happen), the fish were too far gone and continued to die over the next week. The crabs, reef lobster, shrimp, and of course, Cryptocaryon, did survive! Consequently, due to the massive die-off, I have suffered through weeks of nuisance algae and various algae blooms. It is finally getting back to normal at this point after water changes and running Purigen, Chemi-pure and carbon. I sent this in the hope this may help others debating whether to run quinine sulphate in DT not do it!

Hi WWM crew,
Question about Chloroquine phosphate. I have spoken with Dr Fishman recently and he is now of the belief that CP is not photo sensitive
<Mmm, am not so sure. Bob Goemans opinion:
is contrary>
and you do not need to turn off your lights for the duration of the treatment. Good to know. He also felt that it was very difficult to OD wit this product.
<Am not sure re this either. Other Quinine compounds definitely have narrow ranges of (treatment effect, toxicity) efficacy>
Also good news. Included his email. My questions is regarding CP treatment for specific fish, lionfish and puffers. I have seen that lions do not take this treatment at all and have lost 2 within 12 hours of CP
being introduced. I have not tried it with puffers. Has anyone had any experience?
<I don't know of any such controlled, experimental data>
<Thank you. Bob Fenner>
Re: CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE for Crypto   7/19/11

Just found the attached link that has an interesting article by Bob Goemans. Taken from June issue of Aquarium Fish International. All info is good info!
Thanks again!
<Ah yes. Thank you for sharing. I take it you've come across he and Ichinotsubo's recent disease handbook. I'll be speaking w/ Mitch at next mo.s Disease Conf. in Maine again. BobF>
Re: CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE for Crypto   7/19/11
Thanks Bob. One item to note since I know you are collecting data on CP usage. Both my Annularis angel and my porcupine puffer died overnight.
This has happened previously with lionfish. I can tell you that both fish seemed to have an extreme outbreak of the Ich about 24 hours after the initial dose. I dose at 40mg/G which is about half what Bob G recommends and I dose 2/3rds the first day and the rest the second (1/2 tsp the 1/4 tsp). Not sure if this contributes to the spike in the amount of parasites on the fish or if these are just parasites that were already inside the fish.
<I don't know either Adam, but I would ONLY treat at full dose... AND VERY carefully measure the treatment system volume... AND ONLY treat in (other than the salt water itself) treatment setting; i.e. NOT in a tank w/ substrate, any other chemically active presence. B>

Urgent question regarding dosing DT, w/ QS    7/12/11
Good morning,
As an avid daily WWM reader, I understand the importance of not treating the display tank for disease. Unfortunately, I am in a rather precarious situation that forces me to do the unthinkable, and unwise in my 125 FOWLR.
Weapon of choice --quinine sulphate. I know it kills mollusks, small starfish and other life forms including much desirable life in my live rock, but will it kill my cleaner shrimp, crabs, reef lobster, copepods and serpent stars?
<Well, mostly toxic to mollusks, but... VERY important in all cases NOT to overdose. VERY carefully calculate REAL gallonage... LWH divided by 231 MINUS gravel, rock, other solids... Too likely to have problems with the other life here... WOULD treat fishes in a plastic trash can... rigged with filtration, circ., aeration instead>
Thank you once again for your time and consideration.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Urgent question regarding dosing DT/QS    7/12/11

Dear Mr. Fenner,
<Just Bob is fine Mike>
Thank you for such an informative and quick reply! I'm going to owe you so many rounds of beer at the end of this, that I may as well be done with it and take you to Belgium so we can stumble our way through every Trappist and abbey brewery!
<I'm there! White biers here we come!>
I like my beers Belgian!
If only I lived closer, the trouble we would get in! Take care.
<Thank you my friend. BobF>

Crypto issue    6/27/11
Hi again, I'm in a very tough spot right now... It seems that Quinine Sulfate in the Display tank
<... best not to treat, administer medicines anywhere but in a purposeful "treatment tank"... Too much possibility of absorbtion elsewhere>
has proved ineffective in getting rid of the Crypto. It just comes back, and back and back. I just ordered CP and it will be here on Wed. My problem is that the Crypto is (I think) is now somewhat immune to the QS.
Is this even possible?
<Mmm, don't think so>
Well, my new 55 gallon QT is set up and ready to go, but the only medication I have on hand is Cupramine... My fishes right now are a Dogface Puffer (6") Personifer Angel (4"), Flagfin Angel (4"), Coral Beauty (2"), Flagtail Blanquillo (5-6"), Heniochus (5"), and Midas Blenny in a 180 gallon tank. My puffer is doing very poorly... White eyes, fins tucked in to his gills and barely breathing. The others are quickly getting covered with spots. I'm reluctant to use copper but I think they'll be dead by Wed when the CP arrives.
<Lower the specific gravity, drastically... this should get them by till the CP arrives>
What would you do if you were me right now, considering the fish I have and that the display tank has QS in it right now? I feel like I'm backed into a corner.
Thanks so much,
<Treat through foods if they're feeding, vacuum the substrate thoroughly.
Bob Fenner>
Re: Crypto issue 6/27/11

Great advise <advice> Bob! Thanks!!
<Welcome Jay. B>
Re: Crypto issue 6/27/11
Hey Bob, quick question... The fishes have been treated with QS for 10 days in the DT. Most of which was likely absorbed into the rocks, substrate, pre filter, etc. When the CP arrives, I plan on dipping them for 10 minutes in pH/temp adjusted RO water, then a 10 second bath in Methylene blue, and into the 55 QT they go.
<I'd just put the Methylene Blue in the ten minute dip>
Now... I've been reading that dosing the CP should be done at 20mg/L for the first week, then 10mg/L for the next 3 wks. with 50% water changes before each dosage. Do you think that's a good idea given my
<This SOP should work>
Can I still add it to the food even though I'll be treating the tank?
I feel this is my last chance, and don't want to mess this one up. :)
Thanks so much for your time Bob, it means A LOT!
<Glad to share w/ you. B>
Re: Crypto issue 6/27/11
Just a follow up.. I keep natural seawater SG when dosing CP, correct?
Regular temp as well?
<Yes... DO carefully measure the real gallonage in your system... inches of water... cubed, divided by 231... MINUS all solids>
I keep my tanks at 78.2. Just worried that coming from a very low SG (1.010) to natural levels will kill them even with a slow drip. Maybe start them off in QT at 1.010 and raise it slowly since they'll be there for 8 weeks anyway.
<I'd treat back at natural seawater concentration. Bob Fenner>
Re: Crypto issue 6/27/11
Wouldn't that have to be a slow process? From 1.010 to 1.024?
<Mmm, could be... depending on where you're starting...>
So glad you're here for me! I couldn't be in better hands :)
Re: Crypto issue 6/29/2011

Well Bob, your advice was spot on. Most of the fish are faring notably better and actually eating! Of course, my favorite fish and the one that I waited 4 months for (Personifer) was found dead this morning...
The other fish have been with me for at least 8 months living in a Crypto infested tank which probably gave them the edge to survive.
The Personifer has been with me for about 2 months, 1 in the QT and the other in the DT but was not strong enough to fight this episode off. Very sad indeed, but I've learned a lot from the experience. The CP will be here by tomorrow at 3pm (NY time) and then I will start treatment in the QT. I plan on vacuuming all of the sand out and replacing it after the "fallow" period. I'm planning on 8-10 wks.
fallow, would it hurt to go more say like 12 wks?
<Too likely so... and w/o much if any to gain>
Do you suggest medicating the DT tank during this time, raising temp, lowering SG?
<The last two>
Or will just "fishless" be enough to get rid of this horrible parasite?
<Best to push it>
Also, should I 'feed' the tank with some flakes during this time to keep biological going or is this just a waste?
<I would not feed>
Also do you suggest leaving all rock in the tank during this fallow period, or not?
<I would leave in place... perhaps use the occasion to later move, vacuum underneath and re-do their arrangement (for esthetic sakes)>
I'm also planning on ditching my UV so my fish can gain some immunity to actually fight the disease off if it ever resurfaces. I know you don't use a UV and was thinking of following in your footsteps :) Good idea?
Thanks in advance Bob!
<Welcome. B>
Re: Crypto issue   6/30/11

Hey Bob, maybe you can briefly explain to me what I did wrong.
First off before the CP arrived my Flagfin angel was found under a rock dead... So, I started crushing up the CP with Mortar and Pestle. I then took most of the rock out of the DT to make catching the fish a little less stressful on them and myself :)
I then dipped them one by one in RO, and MB. 10 minutes total for each fish.
<With aeration I hope/trust... RO has no dissolved gas content>
The QT has only been running for about a week, I added Bio Spira to get some bio going as I didn't want to use the infested DT water or any if the bioballs for that matter. I have a bunch of black PVC fittings for hiding and resting in the QT. Bur otherwise bare. When I added the fish, my beloved Flagtail Blanquillo died within the next hour. The Midas blenny then followed leaving me with a Heniochus, Saddleback, and Coral Beauty who BTW seems invincible! Was it the lack of bio that killed them?
<Mmm, don't know, can't tell with any certainty from the data presented>
All other parameters read 0. ph was 8.3 temp was 79... So that really made me think of how I could have avoided these deaths.
My next problem is my Dogface Puffer named "Scooby" who we just adore. He is still in the DT. Knowing that they need an established system to thrive I didn't want to risk putting him in QT just yet. Since all the other fish are out it's like he came back to life. Eating, swimming around in his normal fashion... I'm thinking of having my LFS hold him until I can get the bio up in the QT. Otherwise, I don't think he will survive the process.
I'm almost there! I would just like your expert opinion on what I may have missed during this process.
Hope all is well,
<Ah yes; on my end tis. B>

Mystery deaths even after fish were moved to QT... something toxic...   4/9/11
Hi guys, let me start with a short description of my tank. Its a 150g SPS reef that has been with me for over a year. Everything was doing great till just a few days ago. I use biopellets, a XP3000 skimmer(rated 350g), and I run AC all in my 80g sump.
Here's the problem: 2-3 weeks ago I asked my friend who was going to Singapore to purchase a Mitratus Butterflyfish for me. When it got home, everything was okay and it was eating by the next day so I had no reason to suspect anything wrong. I went away for 5 days and left the tank under the care of my brother as I have done many times in the past and when I got home everything was still okay except the Mitratus was discolored, its eyes were cloudy, it wasn't swimming out in the open anymore and its scales were falling off.
<The last... big trouble>
I thought immediately that its probably flukes because of the cloudy eyes so I treated right away with Praziquantel and did a FW dip but that didn't seem to help. It died after 2 days and I thought maybe I was just too late to save it.
I did a FW dip to confirm if it was flukes but looks like it wasn't. The cloudiness in the eye never left and nothing was coming off its skin but scales. Yes, I did double check if it was scales and they were.
<Could be "just" collection/handling damage, but...>
The next day, my other Mitratus and Declivis Butterflyfishes were acting all weird. They were still eating a lot but they were discolored. I added more Selcon to their food and hoped that when I get home from work, they would still be okay. When I arrived that night, the Declivis was on its side and the Mitratus was looking even paler. I caught them both and immediately set up a 40g hospital tank and placed them both there. I was already so confused as to what it could be. My friend got a fish from that same batch and his fowlr was getting wiped the same time as mine and he suspected that it was Brooklynella.
<... did you confirm w/ a skin scraping, 'scope?>
I immediately added Furan-2 and formalin <!> to the QT in the hope to save them but by the next day, the Meclivis was a goner and the Mitratus wasn't looking good anymore. That afternoon, it died as well. I tried comparing their pics to those of fish affected by brook but im not 100% convinced it is but its the most likely candidate I think. Velvet also comes to mind.
<... too many guesses, treatments>
After that, I removed all my fishes, and restarted the QT tank. I added Cupramine only this time and im going to be leaving my display tank fallow for 2 months and I swear from this day forth, everything will be going through QT for at least a month.
Two days ago in the QT, one of my Randal Anthias and my royal gramma (both have been with me for more than a year and were super healthy) died showing similar symptoms like the discoloration of the skin and redness in certain areas of their body.
Today, it was my mystery wrasse that fell victim. He was also perfectly healthy prior to this and he was even eating a lot yesterday. Now I am so confused as to what this is and even the people who are much more experienced than me have no clue!
I have made some possible conclusions as to what this disease might be though:
1. Cloudy eyes and falling scales were an isolated incident on the first Mitratus. The other fishes showed none of those symptoms.
2. I did notice very fine powdery specks(too small to be Ich) on my HYT a few days ago. Now that it is in QT, that seems to have went away.
<Again... a microscopic examination... reference work...>
SO: I think its likely that it was Brooklynella or velvet and the parasites weakened the fish to such a state which allowed the bacteria in the tank to cause a secondary infection.
<Mmm, no; not likely. If Brook, all would have died in short order. The descriptions and incidence of who perished first, second... lead me to believe this is/was more of a "cascade event"... with the involvement of your corals mostly>
This would explain most if not all the symptoms.
The cloudy eyes in the first Mitratus and the internal bleeding in the 2nd Mitratus, declivis, and royal gramma.
Please help! I know I should have put the Mitratus on QT but the LFS already had him in QT for over a week
<... ONLY trust yourself here. TOO easy for others to make mistakes, mix livestock, gear...>
and they assured me he was good to go. Now I am
at wits end of what to do and I would really appreciate some help.
<During this time, did any of your corals "shrink" back, with other/s showing great vigour? Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompppt.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Mystery deaths even after fish were moved to QT  4/9/11
Nope, none of my corals shrunk back at all and all of them are still doing great till now actually.
<Mmm, well, am almost sure that "something" toxic (rather than pathogenic) is at base/fault here>
I always keep my corals a good distance away from each other and I mostly keep SPS and Zoas.
<The last are very toxic... What would trigger their activity here? Some chemical addition, media change? Being picked on by?>
The Zoas have their own rocks and islands while the SPS have their own territories and a lot of them aren't more than 3inches long(got them at around 1 inch). Unfortunately, I don't really have any easy access to a microscope but if need be, I will try to find someone can help me with that. How do I go about preparing which parts I need to put under the scope?
<Best to refer you here. To Ed Noga, Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment (2d ed. if you can)>
Could it be bacterial?
<Not primarily, as you'd stated>
If its not brook, I would think that its velvet but it was only that one time in the yellow tang I was able to see any powdery white substance at all so even with brook ruled out,
>.. assuredly, not... Again, the description and order of loss<
I still have no clue what it could be. The only constant symptoms are the red spots near the fins or somewhere in their body, rapid respiration,
<... yes. the "expression" of the Gramma loreto... indicative... the left pectoral fin forward...>
and then eventual death. Some show discoloration like the pictures I sent you of my Royal Gramma and the other butterflies while others like the Mystery Wrasse don't seem to be discolored at all. My female Hawaiian flame wrasse is on its side now and it seems like by tomorrow morning it will be a goner.
On a side note: I am so thankful for your reply!
<Wish I could "do the Vulcan mind meld" with you... or had more to offer up-front. BobF>
Re: Mystery deaths even after fish were moved to QT  4/10/11
Yeah but the strange thing is that the deaths are continuing even though they are all in QT already being treated.
<Mmm, could be from residual stress/poisoning>
The last thing I can remember that I did that could have stressed the corals was when I had to catch all the fish and move them into QT a couple of days ago. Since then the display tank has been fallow of any fishes and the corals are all still doing pretty great.
<I see>
This morning, the female Hawaiian Flame Wrasse just died of the exact same symptoms as the royal gramma minus the discoloration. I'll try to send pics later. Im also doing a 40% water change on the QT to lower the nutrients there.
<Pix won't do much good>
Im not really sure what I should be doing now. I just plan to finish the 2 weeks of copper
<Am a bigger fan by far of quinine compounds over cupric ion... See WWM re>
and then perhaps remove all the copper from that system and keep the fishes in hypo. Would that be good enough? What would you do in this situation?
<... as the above. B>
Re: Mystery deaths even after fish were moved to QT  4/10/11

Hi Bob!
I just finished changing the water in my QT tank with salt mix + RO water to reduce the nutrients. I also re-added the dose for Cupramine for the part of the water that I removed. While I was checking my fishes, I noticed that my male Hawaiian Flame wrasse was trying to shake something off. He wasn't scratching
himself on anything. He was just trying to shake something off. Im not sure if me telling you that helps in any way but im just really worried about my surviving fishes. There aren't very many of them left and the disease, whatever it is, is really just picking them off one by one.
<Shaking is likely a reaction to copper exposure/poisoning>
Could it still be velvet affecting them even after bring in Cupramine treatment for 4 days? I also have furan-2 in there so I was hoping that the deaths would stop but it seems like im not that fortunate.
<... not Velvet. Your fishes would all have died at about the same time>
Also if I am able to find any quinine based meds here in the Philippines, I will definitely remove the copper and switch to that right away.
<Ahh, I see. Didn't realize you were/are in the P.I.>
Thanks for all the advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out!
<Am happy to try and assist you. BobF>
Re: Mystery deaths even after fish were moved to QT  4/11/11
H bobi!
I was wondering that since its neither brook or velvet, should I completely stop the copper treatment? Im thinking that continuing it would be moot since I only used the copper thinking it was velvet. I was thinking of switching to something else like amoxicillin perhaps. Or could I use both the amoxicillin and the Cupramine at the same time?
<... I would use neither... have you been reading where you've been referred? B>
Would that help more than what I am doing now?
Re: Mystery deaths even after fish were moved to QT   4/12/11

Hi bob,
Sorry about the misspelling last time, must have slipped my mind.
Yes I was reading up on the quinine based meds but unfortunately, it doesn't seem like its very easily available here in our country in any of the pharmacies or LFS. We do have the antimalarial called Malarin though. I did a search on Google and not much about it comes out. The contents of Malarin however are Quinine diCHl.
<Mmm, I think you mean/t: di HCl...: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine>
I will however be going to another pharmacy later and ill search again for Chloroquine phosphate in the hopes that they actually carry it. I would order it online again but so many times it has happened that I would order it and put it on rush delivery and by the time it gets here, the fish I wanted to treat is already dead.
We also have quinine sulfate available in tabs for human consumption so I think I might try that if the Chloroquine phosphate cant be found.
<Yes. Do>
I was thinking of crushing it into a fine powder and then following the recommendation on some of the emails on WWM of .25 tsp/10g once every 3 days and a 25% water change between each treatment.
<Good. B>
Most importantly, I was also wondering, since the main tank is fallow now, in 2-3 months when I reintroduce fish, would the bacteria that killed the original fishes still be there or would they at least have been wiped out already?
Thanks so much for your patience and all your advice! More power to you guys!
Re: Mystery deaths even after fish were moved to QT    4/13/11

Hi WWM crew!
Just wanted to share an update. Im using this quinine sulfate tab to treat my QT and so far so good. Fish are starting to look better already.
<Ah good>
You can get it here(in the Philippines) for p13 each tablet which is around 320mg if im not mistaken. I moved all the fishes to a separate bucket and I cleaned the entire tank before adding water and the quinine. As for the dosing instructions, im just following what's on WWM regarding the quinine sulfate
powder from National Fish Pharm. It should be the same thing right except that mine is in a tablet form whilst theirs is in powder?
Is quinine sulfate safe to use with ammonia removers like Seachem Prime?
<I think so, yes>
Also I was wondering, if I keep my DT fallow for 2-3 months, would that ensure that the bacteria or whatever it was that attacked my fishes are gone already?
<... likely so; or at least rendered so non-virulent as to not be of consequence. BobF>
Re: Mystery deaths even after fish were moved to QT   4/13/11
Sorry the previous link I attached to the locally available quinine sulfate doesn't work without a log in, here's another one.
Thanks and more power to you guys!
<Can use it this AM Ryan. Mabuhay. B>

Re: re: Good morning..... CP poisoning    3/15/11
Hey Bob, regarding Chloroquine Phosphate dosing I went ahead and checked out Ed Noga's book like you suggested. I am experiencing very strange behavior from all 3 of my fish with the 40mg per gallon dosage. My PB tang is breathing so fast I can't even keep track of counting the speed of his breathing rate.
<I'd change out about half the water, stat!>
My flame angel and hippo tang are swimming weird and not eating. None of these fish have any signs of parasites but I am only on my sixth day of treatment (2 doses). My levels seem to be ok and I weighed the CP out with a beam scale that measures grains (and converted milligrams to grains). Noga didn't state much in his book regarding this type of behavior to this compound. Did you ever see this?
<Yes; toxicity>
I don't want to kill these fish and I am frustrated. Should the fish be acting and swimming kind of strange under treatment with CP....or any strong Med for that matter? Your input would be appreciated, thanks.
<Do this water change now. BobF>
Re: re: Good morning..... CP tox.    3/16/11

Ok.....done. I have charcoal running also. This happens way too much with the quinine compounds. When this happened to my last flame angel he was never the same after that. Always swam sluggish and just always seemed tired. Does this toxicity do permanent damage to my fish or will it heal in time?
<I hope not... Might I ask, are you sure re the volume of water here? That is, are you taking into account the real tank dimensions, sans displacement from other objects? It's quite common for folks to "assume" that the gallonage is about the same as the "model #" (for want of any other descriptor)... Most tanks are surprisingly short of their understood gallonage... hence too easy overdosings. B>
Thanks Bob
Re: re: Good morning..... CP dis use   3/16/11
Yes, when I first bought the tank I used five gallons buckets to fill it bare and came up with 17 gallons.
<I see>
I only have a small amount of live rock in there and it's bare bottom. So I treated for 16 gallons. I read on reef central to do a double dosage during your first dose
<I would NOT do this. B>
so I can't imagine I overdosed if the fish can withstand a double dose. I hope the toxicity didn't do any permanent damage.
Re: re: Hey Bob     2/22/11

Hey Bob, good morning. I am just following up with you regarding CP. I finally finished my final dose and my ammonia has spiked to 2.0....my fish are all half dead. I think I may have overdosed. I dosed 40mg per gallon but added a little extra by mistake.
Does this mean my year and a half old cycled tank is going to have to start from square one?
<Not likely. B>
Is this like having a brand new tank without being cycled? I've been adding live bacteria and doing water changes hoping for the best.

Re: CP over/re-dosing  3/27/11
Oh, and I forgot to tell you regarding dosing of Chloroquine phosphate.
I discovered through experimentation that the CP does not need to ever be redosed after the first.
<Mmm, I'll have to look. Thought I'd expressed this sufficiently on WWM>
After five days after the second dose my fish would overdose (rapid breathing, erratic swimming, discoloration etc.).
This happened three times in a row with several different rounds of fish.
Now I dosed once for 10 days and fish are great and parasite free...for now, we will see. CP is so new I didn't expect you to know much about it but Dr. Fishman at fishman chemicals said not to do more than one dose because of actual overdosing. Figured id let you know that and it would be beneficial to pass that on.
<Thank you for this. B>
Re: re:   3/28/11
Sure anytime. It's amazing how the other two times immediately after the second dose I had an ammonia spike at 2.0....BOTH times. And all of those fish are now dead. So, one dose (at least here in Philadelphia) is enough.
<Acknowledged. B>
Hey Bob, CP use    4/8/11

Well, I finally received Noga's book in the mail and after reading over it, it states that ONE treatment of CP should be sufficient.
<Yes... thought we'd gone over this>
No wonder my fish were overdosing lol. In a previous email you (and a few others) had told me to apply 40mg per gallon every five days without water changes.
<Really!? Seems odd... other quinine cpd.s are treated in series...>
Just wanted to pass this info on so other aquarists do not run into the same issue. I think CP is much more deleterious than we all may suspect....definitely more than QS. One treatment is all I did and all of my new fish are clear of all parasites for 3 weeks now. Again, thanks for all of your help.
<Thank you. B>
re: Hey Bob    4/8/11

Yea we had gone over this from my personal experience....but now that I received the book I see that we were all incorrect about the dosing regime.
I thought this misconception was actually picked up from Noga's book and it may have been a mistake. But, it seems someone put together their own dosage regime and claimed it came from Noga.
<Ahh, thank goodness for in-print works (still!). And Ed and I will be roomies again it looks like at the August Fish Health Conference in Maine. B>
re: Hey Bob    4/8/11

Yea we had gone over this from my personal experience....but now that I received the book I see that we were all incorrect about the dosing regime.
I thought this misconception was actually picked up from Noga's book and it may have been a mistake. But, it seems someone put together their own dosage regime and claimed it came from Noga.
<Mmm, well... such "regimes" are different amongst writings, personal experience at times... and like real science/scientists, you'll note that Ed Noga gives his references... cites where he's gotten his input from. B>

Re: Crypt eradication questions- 2/16/11
Hi crew,
Following up. I am dosing 40mg/gallon for 21 days.
<? of CP I take it>
Seems to be working well. All fish including the mandarin are continuing to eat. One question I do have. I am adding some additional fish.
<?! Not at this present time I hope/trust>
They will be coming in on day 17 of treatment. Would you recommend extending the CP treatment beyond the 21 days and assume that the newly added fish could be bringing in crypto?
<I would leave them out of any known-infested system>
All the fish will remain in the QT tank for 4 weeks beyond the 3 initial treatment weeks as the main tank is fallow to rid it of the crypto. If I do extend, for how long? 3 more weeks?
<Oh! Likely should work>
Thank you for the assistance. You have been a great help!
<Welcome. BobF>

Cupramine and Quinine Sulfate  2/14/11
I have a 300g Saltwater DT (FO) that I have been treating with Cupramine for Marine Ich.
I have maintained the Cu at 0.5-0.7ppm for 2 months and still notice some Crypt on a few fish. I moved these fish to a separate 25g QT and treated with Crypto Pro... 5 days and the Ich is GONE!
<Ah good>
Now I would like to treat the 300g tank.
Q. Can I add the Crypto Pro (Quinine Sulfate) to the 300g that has the Cupramine already in it. (It would/will take a long time to rid the tank of Cu via water changes, and Cuprisorb).
<W/o fish in it? Yes>
The fish remaining in the tank are free of Ich but I want to make sure the Ich is gone before I get rid of Cu in it and move fish to the tank.
<They should be removed really, but worth the try>
I would plan to add the 1/4 tsp per 10g and change 25% water every three days with the Quinine Sulfate.
Any chemists around?
<Mmm, am an old H.S. teacher one>
< http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3595>
Regal Angel
<http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3509> &t=3509 
<Bob Fenner>

Good morning..... CP, Methylene Blue uses... reading  2/11/11
Hey crew, I am having pretty severe troubles at this point in time and was hoping an expert could help me out. I just (as per the recommendation of Mr. Fenner) purchased Chloroquine Phosphate. I found it at a place called fishchemical.com (Fishman Chemical, LLC) and I am beginning to wonder if this place is legit. The smallest amount I could get was 1 kilo for $125 plus shipping.
<You don't need a kilo!>
Has anyone ever heard of this company?
<I have>
If so, are they real and legit?
<They are, but I'd order from other another supplier where I referred you>
What's causing my concern is the fact that not a single stitch of literature came with this compound in regards to dosage....shady. I am getting all different results when I Google AND when I search the forums on WWM...any ideas?
<Yes... stick w/ WWM... my input comes from Ed Noga... his new book, he and I were dorm-mates at the Fish Health Conf. last year at UNE. His referencing is impeccable>
Do you think it may be the same dosage as that of Quinine Sulfate? I just want to find an accurate and solid dosing schedule.
<... for CP, 10 mg/l, or 40 mg/gal... every five days for four treatments for Crypt...>
Any input on this would be great. Lastly, I have a question regarding Methylene blue. Is it possible for a fish to overdose on this Med?
<Almost impossible>
It seems. every time I. use this during a Ph adjusted freshwater dip (10 min), my fish seem to have erratic/jerky swimming and constant rapid breathing for a full 24 hours afterwards. I dosed about 9 drops in 3.5 gallons of dip water. Bob states in his book under the "treatment" section that its very hard to overdose on MB.
<This is so. There is something else, artifactual perhaps in the dipping process, not the MB>
The Med itself and the fish have a very broad range of toleration. If the dip water Ph is around 8.0 and the temp is the same as display tank, what else could be causing this consistent rapid breathing strange behavior?
<Not really, no. The act of being chased, netted, lifted from the water though... is extremely stressful>
Thanks so much folks!
<Welcome. BobF>

Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! Ich, temp...?   1/3/11
Ok thanks Bob. One other thing I am in question about is higher temperature speeding up the life cycle of Ich. My temp is around 76 normally and when I increase it to 80 Ich becomes rampant in the tank and
on my fish. From the research I've done on wwm.com I was lead to believe higher temps are better for Ich infested tanks, why is it getting worse and not better?
<... Umm... please include previous correspondence when writing us. Am so forgetful now-a-years that I can scant recall where my keys are (I try to put them in the same place)... 80 degrees is not "hot enough" to do much good... for either marine or freshwater Ich... See WWM re. BobF>
Re: Hey again and Happy New Year! Crypt trials  1/24/11

Hey Bob, I am so worried right now. I have a display tank infested in what looks like Ich. I have the space nor money to supply a QT tank for the 9 fish I have in my 90gal FOWLR so I had no choice but to treat my main display.
<A very poor idea. Impossible to "adjust" for local co-factors, chemical/physical interactions w/ treatment medications>
I have 0 inverts and 0 corals, live rock only. So I went ahead and dosed my tank with QS (as per your recommendation) . The directions to the label say : "tanks 50gal or larger dose 1/4 teaspoon per ten gallons for 5 days then a 25% water change before a second application for another 5 days totaling a full ten day treatment ". I followed the directions exactly and now what was a minor Ich outbreak turned into a major infestation.
<Likely the Quinine "never made it" here... was absorbed... by... "gunk">
Three fish in my tank have not a single spot but 5 have cloudy fins and what looks like a white substance flowing off of their bodies in the current of the water. Is this from too much QS exposure?
The Ich was gone for most of the time during the treatment and now it has come back like this. Something is telling me its something else other than a parasite.
My hippo tang's eyes are protruding also and after seeing it was both eyes I am assuming it's not from scratching. I know the QS gets absorbed by the live rock but in a previous email you told me to a "minor extent", soil figured it would be effective enough to decrease the virulence of the parasite.
What does this sound like to you?
<Can't say exactly... but, highly probable just a re-cycling of Crypt>
The Ich was never this bad before the start of treatment. Now, all of a sudden after QS treatment....its worse.
Shouldn't it be better if anything? What do you suggest I do?
<... Read, quickly... on WWM re your options:
and the linked files above... treat... in another system sans substrate, LR... BobF>
Thanks for being here for assistance.....Jay
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! 1/24/11
Ok, so you think it will be ok to put 9 fish in a 20 gallon long?
<... no. Please search, read ahead of writing>
That's all I have and don't have the funds to afford anything else.
<Perhaps another aquarist, shop will help you... B>
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! 1/24/11
Ok.....I had explained in the first email that I have the space nor the money to get a bigger QT. Maybe you misread parts of my first email.
<... saw this... hence my suggestion to seek help/others locally>
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! 1/24/11
Ok, thank you.
Re: re: Hey again and Happy New Year! QS use, value of quarantine et al SOPs  1/24/11
And Bob, just one more thing.....I'd like to comment on the whole "quarantine procedure ". The only way to avoid this catastrophe is to medicate all new arrivals regardless of signs of parasites being shown.
<Oh, I do agree... along w/ dips/baths... and vaccines>
This time around (since I messed up the first time with no QT), I was extremely cautious and careful as to not put a fish in my display (upon purchase) for a good 3 weeks of QT. I wanted to be sure there were no visible parasites and/or symptoms. Well, I failed......again! So this is telling me it is "luck of the draw " as far as whether or not a parasite will destroy your display. It is only a matter of time. This means that one of these fish was a carrier of velvet or Ich and showed no signs of the disease. So, if QS is as gentle and harmless as you say, why not recommend that every new fish gets a full treatment before hitting the display?
<Two considerations principally; the expense and fact that many (likely more) organisms/fishes would die from the protocol>
QT isn't a preventative practice, it is only a "temporary fix" of a disaster sure to come. Thank you for your time though.
<Do read this: http://wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/ltrquartrdbiz.htm
Yes... a draft, campaign from more than 30 years ago. IF I could get the trade, in particular collectors and livestock wholesalers to just execute simple pH adjusted freshwater baths, we would eliminate some 95-98% of such external parasite issues. Our retail stores used this prophylaxis, and every collecting station, distribution I've been involved w/ has adopted this practice to its tremendous benefit. Convincing others? I'm still trying, not dead yet. BobF>

marine fish treatment Chloroquine phosphate and copper combo, Sweetlips  12/2/10
Hi have spent some time searching/reading on your site but cannot find an exact answer!
I have been treating with CUPRAZIN which contains chelated copper, at a low dose to my system as I thought I had a Whitespot problem. It seems though that not only do I have a mild Whitespot problem the real problem is Amyloodinium! A Lineatus Sweetlips
<This genus is hard to keep/sustain in captivity.>
I have is absolutely plastered in small grey specs and is struggling for breath. I freshwater dipped it
<And returned to the same infested system I take it>
which has definitely eased his breathing but obviously not cured him!
T add to the problems I have a porcupine puffer on the system which past experience tells me is not going to tolerate anymore copper,
(sat on floor breathing deep and slow gulps!) and dwarf angels so I am loath to increase the dosage. The system is separate tanks all linked as I was hoping to begin importing fish to subsidise the hobby. (That is how I acquired the parasites!!)
<... You're a "bit away" from being capable of such enterprise apparently.
I would invest in Ed Noga's V. 2 Fish Disease, Diagnoses and Treatment, for sure>
The filter is only a couple of months old as well so I cannot use the CUPRAZIN at full strength.
<Copper exposure at other than physiological doses is not of any use...>
My question is can I treat with CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE while the copper is still in the system?
<You can... but the copper presence may weaken the host fishes in addn. to the CP>
I have about .25mgl
I don't think I have time to remove the copper first without losing the fish.
I really like this fish
<Again... see WWM re these Grunts... not aquarium suitable>
and deliberately ordered it for myself as I will provide it with the space it needs, and it is feeding well in
spite of being so sick.
<Almost all "die mysteriously" in spite of such apparent feeding>
Some of the other fish are showing signs but not as bad, I really don't want to lose anymore! (I have lost a coral beauty, and two clowns, maybe copper/parasites)
Hope you can help.
Cheers, Andrew
<Mmm, ahhh... I do wish we could spend time face to face. Do seek out Noga's work. Bob Fenner>
Re: marine fish treatment Chloroquine phosphate and copper combo 12/2/10
Thanks for the reply, I would like to add that I am not new or inexperienced at marine fish keeping,
These fish came in to me direct from the Philippines
<... I have worked in the industry for decades, including in the PI>
and the majority were healthy but this one fish has infested an otherwise healthy system.
I know this is the risk with
importing, I just wanted advice regarding the mixing of chemicals!
I appreciate too what you say regarding the grunts, but I have had success with Harlequins in the past even eating artificial foods and growing very fast, I had to pass the fish on because of a house move but assume he is still growing. I grew it from 3-9 inches in about 12 months.
<Thank you for this>
I am not suggesting they are easy just that as with some corals, giving up because they are difficult may be short sighted, provided the keeper is willing to put in the effort.
I hope I am not wrong I guess I shall find out in time!
Thanks for the reff I will look for the book you suggested, and I appreciate the info your site gives.
<Ed was my "roomie" at the recent Fish Health Conference in Maine where we both presented... I have the older, first ed. and use it often>
Out of interest CP seems very cheap over here in the UK, or has it just dropped in recent months?
<I do think so>
Sounds like a useful tool to keep in the cupboard!
Thanks again, Andrew
<Welcome. Thank you for this further input. Cheers, BobF>

Cupramine, use, effect on biofiltration     7/2/10
Hey Crew
<Hello Jimmy>
I have gotten conflicting reports on this issue: Will Cupramine have a detrimental effect on the nitrogen cycle of a tank.
<Yes, to an extent, depending on the concentration used>
I called Seachem and they say no, but they do say that the amine moiety <RMF corrected spelling>
<?what is this word?>
on the copper will cause false high readings from ammonia test kits.
<Try using a salicylate kit one with a yellow/ green test strip. I find the API kit for this to be excellent>
I know that prophylactic copper treatments are not usually recommended if a fish is otherwise healthy.
<Agreed. Try Chloroquine phosphate http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
I have had a closed disease system for many years and am thinking of adding a fish to the system to replace a 13 year old Foxface that has moved on. It took much effort to get my system disease free when I started, and of course, I am going to quarantine. I plan on at least a 6 -8 week quarantine.
<Mmm, too long IMO. 2-3 weeks for fishes is usually adequate. 3 if using CP>
If no visible signs of disease are present is that an adequate indicator that I will not be introducing trouble into the system?
<Usually, yes. Although even when treating prophylactically there are no guarantees. If healthy, and introduced to a stress free and healthy system afterwards most problems are avoided>
Somewhat unrelated question: How often is it acceptable to siphon the gravel (i.e. gravel wash) in a marine tank that uses aragonite substrate? I usually do very small water changes ( 5 gal ) every other day on my 180G FOWLR with great success, takes all of 10 minutes and the system looks great for years. Amazing how this approach has yielded better results than a single 50g water change once a month.
<If you are using gravel, then regular siphoning is required. If using fine sand, then periodic siphoning is fine, and some people never siphon their sand at all! If you have problems with BGA on your sand then it needs to be siphoned off and usually through as well until the problem is resolved. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marsubstr.htm >
<No worries>

Re: Cupramine   7/5/10
I restocked my fish pharmacy and bought some Chloroquine Phosphate. As a physician, I am lucky that I have access to just about any meds that I need for my hobby.
<This is lucky.. is it allowed??>
Though I rarely need to treat fish, I try to keep some meds on hand for this purpose. Costs a little bit of money, but well worth it IMO. I am a bit unclear if the Chloroquine phosphate is going to ding my nitrogen cycle.
<If used with a mature filter then you should be ok. I have found it difficult to establish a filter with the med present though, even while using the bottled bacteria products, so I assume that there must be some knockback effect, although small. I recommend that your treatment tank is well cycled before treating>
I have read the posts and this is alluded to but I have not seen it fully addressed.
<Probably because it has not been>
Are you believer that hyposalinity (1.009) works for crypt?
<This is a method that can work, but it is not the panacea that some like to think>
I know that the fish-keeping community is a bit divided on this issue. There are LFS around here that use it and say that their losses have decreased dramatically since.
<I can believe this, but what works for someone who is going by the numbers is not necessarily the way to go for the hobbyist. Have you read on WWM re?>
I have used it in the past with mixed result, but some swear by it, and others swear at it if it does not work!
<This is because many people, including me, have seen first hand that it does not always work. It is a way of reducing numbers, prevalence, of parasites, but not necessarily eliminating them altogether. I think Goemans & Ichinotsubo recommend using Hypo with the Chloroquine. I have not tried this, but I would think that it is very effective. Noga recommends 10mg/L with only one dose, but monitored for 21 days and a re-dose if necessary. Perhaps you should look into purchasing his book Fish Disease, Diagnosis, Treatment. I re-dose with a water change (saltwater) once a week by the way.>
By the way, a "moiety" is a word frequently used in chemistry and means " to be a part of something." So the -amine moiety of Cupramine resembles ammonia and yields false positive tests with some test kits.
<Ahhh! Every day is a school day!>
Simon, you have been great!
<Its a pleasure to be of help>
Amazing this hobby of fishkeeping, no matter how good we think we are, ALWAYS room for improvement, and very very rewarding when successful!
<Oh yes.. with so much that is not understood there is always something to learn>

Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? 6/15/10
Greetings to all at WWM!
<Howsit Jamie?>
I've been treating my FOWLR display tank with Chloroquine phosphate since April 30th for my quinine resistant strain of C. irritans. The fishes have all appeared to tolerate this medication very well and no more ich after one
week of Chloroquine.
I've continued this treatment as I learned from Dr. Fishman that this medication can be dosed continuously in the tank as a preventative for further reinfection.
<Mmm, I would not do this... with CP or other med.>
My question is in regards to the Atlantic Blue tang, who shows these "blotches" only at certain times when his skin turns a darker color.
<Just "stress"... your pic shows a very nice specimen>
They are not raised or fuzzy. Behaviorally, he is a little more isolative, and appetite has been decreased. One of his eyes had some cloudiness but this seems to come and go.
I am wondering if this is due to Chloroquine sensitivity, or is this a secondary infection.
<Much more the former likely>
My tank parameters: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, pH 8.2. He is the only fish showing this.
Thank you for your time and providing this wonderful site to educate and enlighten!!!
<Thank you for sharing! BobF> 


Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? and CP f'    6/16/10
Hello Bob!!!
Thanks for your reply!
I'm sure you don't remember as you get thousands of e-mails, but you have a "baby" picture of him when he was the size of a silver dollar - when I sent a picture of him with "black dots" where the ich fell of from the original
quinine sulfate treatment! He has grown to be four inches big now, bigger than my Powder Blue tang.
I don't think he would still be with me if it was not for your guidance and your web site!
Thank You Thank You Thank You!
PS: The Chloroquine phosphate treatment will end in six weeks as I was wanting to make sure that I have three months with no signs of C. irritans before stopping. I believe that I got the quinine resistant strain by stopping too soon.
<I think it (the Crypt) is long gone. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues?   6/16/10
Sorry to go on and on... BUT
How do you recommend I "stop" the treatment?
<Just stop adding the material>
Would you...
1. Just start routine weekly water changes of 15-20%
<Oh yes>
2. Turn on the skimmer
<I would>
3. Add carbon
4. All of the above
5. Do nothing, the Chloroquine will "self destruct" after five seconds...
<Oh! It already has if you haven't been re-adding it. B>

Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues?   6/16/10
G-day Bob,
Just for future reference...
I know that we dose Chloroquine at 40 mg per gallon. I've read that you "re dose" every 7-10 days, but as I was waiting for my treatment, I've done some additional reading and learned that Chloroquine "is very stable in solution"
and I've spoken with Dr. Fishman regarding this and he shared that you don't have to re dose. At one point, I had 22.8 grams total in my 190 gallons of water which is three times the normal treatment dose and that was when all
my fishes appetite decreased. So...I guess in a round about way, if I ever need to treat the fishes for crypt, how would I dose the Chloroquine to begin with, would I re dose and if so, how often, and for how long?
Thanks a Million!
<Thank you for this valuable input. Am going to be "splitting up" the Quinine cpd. FAQs today likely. B>

Quinine Sulphate: In a main display tank? - Only as a last resort. 6/12/2010
Hi Wet Web,
<Hi Tracey>
Just a quick question, can I treat my display tank with quinine sulphate for ich if I have not added coral yet, just liverock, sand and fish?
<A very guarded yes. I personally would only recommend treating the entire tank, and only with Quinine, is when the tank was large and well established, particularly with corals, to the point where getting the fish out would be more destructive than treating Do consider that some will be absorbed by the rock and sand which will reduce its effectiveness, so you will be dosing for much longer than you would in a quarantine or hospital tank; probably 3 - 5 courses of treatment rather than one or two. Another consideration is the large water changes after treatment - normally 25%. which can be a not so insignificant amount on a larger tank.>
Thanks so much for your help. Tracey
Quinine Sulphate: In a main display tank? - Only as a last resort. 6/12/2010, ScottV's addl. input
Hi Wet Web,
<Hi Tracey>
Just a quick question, can I treat my display tank with quinine sulphate for ich if I have not added coral yet, just liverock, sand and fish?
<A very guarded yes. I personally would only recommend treating the entire tank, and only with Quinine, is when the tank was large and well established, particularly with corals, to the point where getting the fish out would be more destructive than treating Do consider that some will be absorbed by the rock and sand which will reduce its effectiveness, so you will be dosing for much longer than you would in a quarantine or hospital tank; probably 3 - 5 courses of treatment rather than one or two. Another consideration is the large water changes after treatment - normally 25%. which can be a not so insignificant amount on a larger tank.>
Thanks so much for your help. Tracey
<<I would like to add here I very strongly recommend against this. As for what Mike mentioned above, the rock and sand will take some of the quinine out of the water. How much is anybody's guess. The recommended dosages
are not concrete to begin with and the effectiveness of this remedy has come into question as of late anyhow. Add to that the quinine sulphate is photosensitive, that is light degrades it, you will have no clue how to dose (quantity or frequency). More treatments will not mitigate this. The only appropriate way to truly treat whatever is going on here is a quarantine tank. Scott V.>>
New position... Quinine dosage/use    6/14/10

I saw this statement today by one of your crew "The recommended dosages are not concrete to begin with and the effectiveness of this remedy has come into question as of late anyhow.
Scott V.", with regards to the use of quinine sulphate for crypt.
Is this a new position by your group, or just the individual who made the statement?
<The individual, Scott Vallembois, but I have read various reports... not all scientific, but some so, re this issue as well>
I got the impression your ranks were quite in favor of this medication!
Thank you
<I am indeed. Quinine cpd.s hold much promise for protozoal control. Bob Fenner>
Re: New position... Quinine dosing  6/15/10

Oh yes, this statement is based solely on my opinion/experiences, as is any statement made here. Truth be told if I was facing crypt either quinine sulphate or Chloroquine phosphate would be my personal choice of treatments, in a dedicated hospital tank. The basis for the statement (that I did not explain well) is there are many I have talked with that have had little or no luck with these compounds. I do wonder (and lean towards) if this is mostly from misapplication. The online forums tout this as a "reef safe" treatment, while the reef system itself greatly impacts the effectiveness without a doubt, as with any treatment reef safe or not. I personally suspect this may be the main cause of failure using these compounds. For what it is worth I have never personally used either to this date. Scott V.

Re: New position... Quinine dosing   6/17/10
Thank you for your personal response...my inquiry was not a challenge or critique, but rather a desire to keep current.
<No challenge taken!>
We mere mortals in the hobby come to rely you "academics" to keep us informed as new or modified approaches to our problems are uncovered.
If I need to treat for something, I would like to think I am "up" on the most current approaches and not have to spend valuable time researching before taking action....so I try to keep current.
<I certainly agree. Keep up with the hobby not only helps us help our wet friends, but keeps us involved in the hobby we all love so dearly! Have a good one, Scott V.>

Re: livestock deaths 4/8/10
Please forgive me for asking a few additional follow up questions:
<Not to worry. Am here to help you>
1. The tang, clownfish and Longnose hawk will be kept in 10G QT while the main tank is running fallow for at least 1 month. Will exposure to the quinine for this period of time harm any of these 3?
<No, it will not>
I read that tangs and clownfish were copper sensitive, but wasnt sure about quinine.
<All fish groups have shown good tolerance>
2. The Scott Fellman article on your site (re: Ich treatment) suggested freshwater dip with Methylene Blue prior to quarantining for ich. Do you feel this is necessary prior to placement into the quinine-dosed QT?
<Mmm, not necessary, but often useful. In other words, if the fish/hosts are in good physical condition, I would definitely pH-adjusted FW (w/ or w/o Methylene Blue) enroute to treatment tank/s>
3. I havent received the Crypto-Pro (quinine sulfate) yet, but I presume it will contain directions on the frequency/duration of dosage? Are you familiar with this brand and the supplier, National Fish Pharmaceuticals?
<Yes and yes>
4. The Fellman article also cited the importance of testing the QT regularly for copper levels when dosing that medication, as periodic water changes will affect the levels. Does this also apply to quinine - is there a test kit available to monitor levels of quinine sulfate?
<There is presently no such test kit... but not needed when treating correctly... In "bare" tanks, one dosing>
5. A few weeks ago, I noticed a bloom in the copepod population (lots of them on glass, very tiny specks). I didnt give it much thought at the time...based on all Ive previously read, I believed it to be a good thing. In reading your parasite threads/articles now, I recall a mention of parasitic copepods, and now Im questioning if the pod bloom and the fish deaths are related. The ones I see on the glass are white, not red or black, though.
<This is highly unlikely an issue>
Thank you again for assisting me in my efforts to become a more conscientious marine aquarist...I think Ive heard that phrase somewhere.
Chris S.
<Ah yes. BobF>

Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress  2/10/10
Hi there,
I started treating my main tank with Quinine Sulphate for ich last night.
(my QT broke while setting it up) Per the instructions I treated with 1/4th teaspoon.
My plan is to do the 9 day treatment with water changes every 3rd day before the new dose. My problem is, though I removed all snails to a bucket with an aerator there were more than a few Bristle worms in the tank I
could not get. Actually, I didn't realize I had so many.
Fish in tank include- Raccoon B/F, True Perc, Blue Tang, juvenile Mappa Puffer
<Are you treating the fishes in the main, display tank? Not advised>
I noticed one of my fish, the Raccoon B/F looking a tad stressed. I also haven't been able to find my Puffer so I tested the water.
Ph 7.9
Nitrate 32
Ammonia was at least 50 on the color meter however I'm not very good with color cards so its plus or minus.
<Mmm, I suspect you've missed the decimal point here... likely 0.50 ppm... half a part per million>
So my question is... I am only on day one or will be at 2 am. I have water made up, should I go ahead and do a water change now?
<... yes. And what otherwise are you doing to limit ammonia?>
If so do I re dose or do I wait the 3 day time period to re treat?
<Need to maintain a physiological dose... re-treat per the amount/percentage of water changed out>
I tried calling National Fish Pharm but they were closed by the time I got home.
<Ahh! They know their "stuff" as well>
Sabrina Roschbach
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the first tray: Quarantine
Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress  2/10/10
Hi again,
I am treating my main tank.
My QT broke while being set up.
<Oh yes... I do recall your stating thus>
I know its not a well liked idea, however my Puffer has had ich for 2 weeks now and I felt waiting to buy another tank, setting it up, and so on would not be in her best interest.
<I do agree>
So I placed all snails and hermit crabs in one of my cleaned salt buckets with an aerator and began treatment. Also, there is no guess work in the math because the website gives directions for treating main tanks with live rock and sand. I called National Fish Pharm this morning before I received your reply.
<I see>
The woman I spoke with said that any ammonia testing would be false readings. That once you start using Quinine Sulphate none of your tests will be accurate.
<Really? With all types of reagents? Might I ask for this person/woman's name? I'd like to contact her re the underlying science here. There are false-negatives with some "water conditioners" and some colorimetric assay
chemicals... but I am unfamiliar with any that are affected with Quinines>
She said the only way to know that there may be a problem is if the fish are OBVIOUSLY stressed i.e. breathing fast, going to the surface to breath and so on. Because my fish aren't doing this she advised me to not do anything and continue following the directions. (The Raccoon B/F is actually doing better now, though I'm not sure why)
Now when I started the treatment all of my levels were good
Ph 8
Nitrate 10
Ammonia 0
She also said I could return my snails and hermits to the main tank once I had ran the filtration system for 2 days doing a large water change both days.
<Mmm... a "trade off" between waiting long enough for removal of the compound, and the likelihood of damage from improper (waiting) environment for sure>
Do you agree with both of her assessments?
<I do not have sufficient confidence in my understanding to have an opinion here>
Oh and as a side note and added unexpected yet welcomed benefit... My Aiptasia problem is LONG GONE!!! YAY! lol
<Ah, good!>
Also I wanted to thank you for all of you frank and helpful advice.
<Certainly welcome>
You don't baby people; you don't let them (me included) get away with lazy research and sloppy husbandry and though it can be hard to take, because of this expectation I believe it has helped make me a better aquarist.
Sabrina Roschbach
<And I thank you for your ongoing patience and sharing. BobF>

Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress, Effect on Ammonia testing  - 2/10/10
The woman I spoke with was Pat. She said that she or Dr. Brian Aukes can answer any and all questions re the false readings though Dr. Brian Aukes would be better at answering your questions. I don't know if ALL tests will
be effected however she did specifically say ammonia tests.
<Thank you for this follow up>
I will be picking up a new QT, even if its just a 10$ Wal-mart aquarium, in the next day or two. I don't believe keeping the snails and crabs in a bucket for close to two weeks would be the best way to go here.
I am very interested in the science behind the reagents as well and would very much like to know more. If you could reply letting me know what you find I would greatly appreciate it. If you cant or don't remember (y'all are
very busy over there) I will just check back re Quinine.
<I will do so>
I would very much like to know if I should do the water change or not. I am torn between the possibility of altering the treatments to an ineffective state and lowering the ammonia because though they aren't looking stressed
it's just not a healthy way for them to live.
<Mmm, the "bio-assay" of livestock behavior is most useful/indicative here, but, when in doubt, I would change some water out>
Thank you again
Sabrina Roschbach
<And you, BobF>
Brian, re a query, statements on WWM - 2/10/10

Would you please point me to the stoichiometry, other indication of co-reaction in water quality/Ammonia tests producing false negatives with Quinine? Please see the corr. below re.
Bob Fenner, WetWebMedia

Brian, re a query, statements on WWM... Quinine interference w/ Ammonia tests
Would you please point me to the stoichiometry, other indication of co-reaction in water quality/Ammonia tests producing false negatives with Quinine? Please see the corr. below re.
Bob Fenner, WetWebMedia
Subject: RE: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress
The woman I spoke with was Pat. She said that she or Dr. Brian Aukes can answer any and all questions re the false readings though Dr. Brian Aukes would be better at answering your questions. I don't know if ALL tests will
be effected however she did specifically say ammonia tests.
<Thank you for this follow up>
I will be picking up a new QT, even if its just a 10$ Wal-mart aquarium, in the next day or two. I don't believe keeping the snails and crabs in a bucket for close to two weeks would be the best way to go here.
I am very interested in the science behind the reagents as well and would very much like to know more. If you could reply letting me know what you find I would greatly appreciate it. If you cant or don't remember (yall are
very busy over there) I will just check back re Quinine.
<I will do so>
I would very much like to know if I should do the water change or not. I am torn between the possibility of altering the treatments to an ineffective state and lowering the ammonia because though they aren't looking stressed it's just not a healthy way for them to live.
<Mmm, the "bio-assay" of livestock behavior is most useful/indicative here, but, when in doubt, I would change some water out>
Thank you again
Sabrina Roschbach
<And you, BobF>
Re: Again: Brian, re a query, statements on WWM 2/21/10
Many medications and water treatments will throw off water testing.
Especially these low dollar reagent test kits. Many times these reagents are expired and you are getting false test results right out of the box.
You must use common sense when keeping tropical fish. Note behavior, feeding habits etc. You cannot rely on a low dollar test kit for accurate results.
If the fish are hanging at the top of the tank and gasping for air... I would say that you have high ammonia or nitrites and that a water change should be done immediately.
If your test kit is giving you a false reading (which can happen frequently), and it shows high ammonia levels: Look at the fish. Are they swimming around just fine? This is where the common sense part kicks in.
Best regards,
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhD
c/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals
<Okay... not the specifics to the question I was looking for, but sound advice in general. Thank you, Bob Fenner>

Re: Again: Brian, re a query, statements on WWM, Quinine/s + NH3 tests  02/22/10
Hi Bob,
If I were to explain it in stoichiometry as you requested... nobody would understand it.
<Most, no>
You must explain things as a hobbyist would understand it and not get so technical. Being that Quinine is an Alkaloid, this would get very confusing.
Again: Most medications and water treatments will throw your tests off.
Best regards,
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhDc/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals
<Am familiar w/ some interactions with Nessler's and PVP... but not Quinines; again thank you for your efforts. BobF>

Re: statements on WWM, Quinine/s + NH3 tests 02/22/10  2/24/10
Just to add my personal experience with ammonia (salicylate) & nitrite tests and Chloroquine Phosphate. I have been using the API tests for both with this medication for some time now (on several occasions) and have found no
unusual results.
<Ahh, I have/had found no such notes by others either...>
Indeed, results have been as I would expect in a QT tank with no med, i.e. a modest increase seen in both as the tank matures, along with increases in ammonia after feeding, and decreases in both with water changes, and as the filter matures.
<Thank you for this. BobF>

Re: Quinine Treatment HELP!! Fish stress 02/12/10
Hi Bob/Crew,
So its 2:30 AM and am still up because ALL of my fish in my main tank were freaking out. Just a recap, I started treating my main tank with Quinine Sulphate 3 days ago, because my QT broke during set up and my fish have had ich for a while. (2 weeks plus by now) I did a 25% water change yesterday (even though it was early) because ammonia was high +/- .50.
<Good move>
I tested the water this evening because of fish stress, and ammonia was at the 4 mark at least!!!! There was no way I could do a large enough water change to make a dent. However, earlier today I went out and got 2 smallish QT's THANK GOD!!! I had just enough salt water made up to move the fish to the two tanks
I guess I had A LOT more die off of bristle worms than I thought. I have followed the directions to the T. I had even stopped feeding them because of the risk of ammonia spikes. (this was done per National Fish Pharm).
<I agree>
My poor poor little Raccoon B/F was so very stressed that parts of him had turned black and white in mixed places. He basically looked like he had been in a fist fight and lost.
<"Ammonia burn">
My poor fish are all just a mess. My puffer who is normally dark bodied with whitish spots is now almost a burnt orange brown... I believe she's secreting slime due to the stress of it all, though she's eating so that's a plus. (fed her just after I moved her to the new QT.)
Mostly this is just a rant type thing because man oh man was I lax on my QT habits before, but now... I will never be again!! I just want people to know, If you LOVE your fish the way I love mine quarantine them!!! Use fw dips!!! Do it all!!!
<Thank you for this>
Also I wanted people to know that treating the main tank with this isn't like just adding purple up or something. This is a BIG pain in the behind. When I had read the FAQ portion on your site people would say they are treating with Quinine and not give any indication of a problem. Please people be WARNED!!! ALL of my bristle worms are dead. The massive die off caused, I believe, the TOXIC over load of ammonia in the tank and almost killed all of my fish. I still have no idea if they will recover. Other than the Puffer the only one eating is the Raccoon. Just be SMART.
<And this>
I guess I do have a question or two.
My puffer was the only fish showing signs of ich though I believed, and still do, that my Skunk Cleaner Shrimp may have been the main reason the others didn't show signs of the plague, as they made regular visits to Mr. Clean.
Any way, my question is, my Puffer was treated for 3 days and still has white spots on her. Shouldn't they have fallen off by now? Most people report them falling off around day 2 or 3.
<More may be "climbing back on" (do you have a good grasp of the causative agents life cycle here?), or the spots could be "just mucus" from skin irritation...>
Also, now that my Puffer is in the QT but stressed to hell and back how should I proceed? Should I continue with the treatment or should I stop the treatment and give her a week or so to recoup?
<I would continue w/ the treatment. Too likely that co-reactions in your main system interfered with, "took up" the medicant>
Thank you for "listening" to my rant. And thank you very much for your time.
<And thank you for your continuing efforts, communication. BobF> 

Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/30/09
Please help.
<Ryan, I would like to apologize (Sara, post or don't post this, I don't care). There are a few in the "Crew" that just let queries rot in their boxes.  Something such as fish disease and treatment are very time sensitive. I again apologize for the slow response here.>
I got my Quinine Sulfate in the mail today as you suggested. I bought "Crypt-Pro" but I see that NationalFishpharm has a couple different directions how to dose/treat the tank. What have you found to be successful? On their website is says to dose 1/4 tsp per 10-gallons one time and then leave it be for 5-7 days.
On the jar itself, it says to dose 1/8 tsp everyday and do 25% water change every day too.
<This is what I would follow.>
When I called them on the phone they said add 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and leave in tank for 5-7 days with no water changes.
<Dang, nothing like consistency!>
Everywhere I look they have a different treatment plan. What way do you think is best? Thanks.
<I would follow the directions on the label. There are a few problems here. First is how "concentrated" the actual powder is. I cannot speak for this particular product. The next problem is there are no reasonable test kits available to aquarist for testing the levels of this medication, but this is the case with many other treatments too. The third issue is the compound does degrade, particularly photosensitive. Basically dosing what the bottle says is going to give you the most effective shot with this treatment. You will constantly be dosing to replace what is used or degraded, while doing water changes to keep the level in check should it build up. Do be sure to have no substrate/rock in the system, it will adsorb the quinine sulfate to a point. And of course, no carbon or chemical filtration. Best of luck, Scott V.>

Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/31/09
Thank you very much for the reply.
<Very welcome.>
Apology accepted, normally you guys are extremely fast at responding. And I couldn't be too upset even if you didn't respond because you have offered me plenty of free advice in the past.
<Thank you.>
Ok, I will do as you and the label says, 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and 25% daily water change. If the quinine sulfate is photo-sensitive maybe I should keep the lights on just a couple hours a day or so??
<At most, I would likely rely on the ambient lighting in the room, turn the lights on only when you want to inspect the fish.>
I am in the process of switching my salt over from natural seawater to Tropic Marin Pro Reef in my 180-gallon tank. I guess on the bright side of these daily 25% water changes in my hospital tank is that if I take 5-gallons of natural seawater out of my display tank and put that 5-gallons into my QT daily, it will give my display a quicker switch to the tropic Marin pr and my coral should appreciate that.
<A good idea.>
Do you know if Quinine Sulfate is safe to use with Amquel+ or any ammonia/nitrite neutralizer?
<I really do not know, a good question. The manufacturer does warn it will interfere with many medications, but the quinine sulfate is not listed.
But it is not a "mainstream" med per se either. I am going to put this back into the general crew folder for input from somebody that may know the answer.>
Although I had a hard cycle in my QT which took about 7-weeks, I am registering .25 ammonia in the QT because the bio load is big for a 20-gallon QT. I know you can't use Amquel+ with copper, I sure hope it is ok with Quinine Sulfate otherwise I may have to do hyposalinity which will be an even bigger pain in the butt. If this Quinine Sulfate I purchased works, I plan on doing it prophylactic-ly on every new fish for the 5-7 day period. I had to tear my reef apart (I don't want to do this ever again) to catch my 4" powder brown tang.
<No fun!>
The 2 x 2" clownfish were easy to catch and the 4" hippo tang wasn't too hard. All of them in a 20-gallon is pushing the limits.
<Wow, yes. Do think about even investing in a second quarantine tank or just some sort of cheap holding vessel.>
Daily pwc and Amquel+ may be the only way to keep them alive. One more question please. What do you think the chances of getting crypt from coral frags is after doing a typical coral dip in Revive and putting into display?
<Very little in an otherwise healthy system.>
Thanks again
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Quinine Sulfate Dosage 5/31/09
Thank you very much for the reply.
<Very welcome.>
Apology accepted, normally you guys are extremely fast at responding. And I couldn't be too upset even if you didn't respond because you have offered me plenty of free advice in the past.
<Thank you.>
Ok, I will do as you and the label says, 1/8 tsp per 10-gallons and 25% daily water change. If the quinine sulfate is photo-sensitive maybe I should keep the lights on just a couple hours a day or so??
<At most, I would likely rely on the ambient lighting in the room, turn the lights on only when you want to inspect the fish.>
I am in the process of switching my salt over from natural seawater to Tropic Marin Pro Reef in my 180-gallon tank. I guess on the bright side of these daily 25% water changes in my hospital tank is that if I take
5-gallons of natural seawater out of my display tank and put that 5-gallons into my QT daily, it will give my display a quicker switch to the tropic Marin pr and my coral should appreciate that.
<A good idea.>
Do you know if Quinine Sulfate is safe to use with Amquel+ or any ammonia/nitrite neutralizer?
<I really do not know, a good question. The manufacturer does warn it will interfere with many medications, but the quinine sulfate is not listed.
But it is not a "mainstream" med per se either. I am going to put this back into the general crew folder for input from somebody that may know the answer.>
Although I had a hard cycle in my QT which took about 7-weeks, I am registering .25 ammonia in the QT because the bio load is big for a 20-gallon QT. I know you can't use Amquel+ with copper, I sure hope it is
ok with Quinine Sulfate otherwise I may have to do hyposalinity which will be an even bigger pain in the butt. If this Quinine Sulfate I purchased works, I plan on doing it prophylactically on every new fish for the 5-7 day period. I had to tear my reef apart (I don't want to do this ever again) to catch my 4" powder brown tang.
<No fun!>
The 2 x 2" clownfish were easy to catch and the 4" hippo tang wasn't too hard. All of them in a 20-gallon is pushing the limits.
<Wow, yes. Do think about even investing in a second quarantine tank or just some sort of cheap holding vessel.>
Daily pwc and Amquel+ may be the only way to keep them alive. One more question please. What do you think the chances of getting crypt from coral frags is after doing a typical coral dip in Revive and putting into
<Very little in an otherwise healthy system.>
Thanks again
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank   5/7/09
Hi Bob and Crew -
I spend at least 8-10 hours per week reading on your site and absolutely love and appreciate all of the great advice. I have only been in the hobby for about 6 months and already have a 300 Gallon Reef, a 60 Gallon FOWLR, and a 34 Gallon Species with a Carpet Anemone and one False Percula. You helped me identify a Nudibranch about a month ago and I have since invested in another 30 gallon tank for quarantine and treatment.
However, like many of your readers, I was devastatingly delinquent in adding the quarantine tank. So, today I write you regarding my 300 Gallon Reef System. I have spend many hours reading on your site about Crypto and other parasites and have recently added a Powder Blue Tang from my 60 Gallon to the 300 Gallon reef system. A week later, I lost my Puffer and Volitans Lion in the 60 gallon tank to Ich. Now, the Powder Blue Tang is showing signs of Ich and has evidently spread the love. My 5" Foxface Lo is also exhibiting signs of 'Black Ich'.
<This, as you likely are aware, is not "that" deleterious>
I know that the drill is to capture and treat all of the fish. This is not possible in this tank. Even if I were to remove all the rock, many of the fishes would hide in the substrate,
<Mmm, they can be sand-sifted out>
etc. However, last night I ran across a post where I inferred that treating the display tank is better than nothing at all. I am afraid that this will be my only option. So, my plan is as follows:
1) Remove all of my Coral and place in a large quarantine tank2) I have ordered Chloroquine Phosphate based on recommendation by WWM and the book "The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook" This is truly the least lethal medication for the fish and the best for a display, right?
<Currently likely the most useful for Protozoans, including Amyloodinium>
3) I will remove as many of my snails and crabs as possible<Mmm... this antimalarial (Aralen) is quite toxic to a range of invertebrates... and there are, assuredly, a huge mix of these in and about your rock, substrate... These may be killed (along with any algae), resulting in a toxic cascade effect... Again, it would be much BETTER to remove the fishes, treat them elsewhere>
4) I will treat the display tank for 10 days with 40mg per gallon of Chloroquine Phosphate
My question is, at the end of this treatment, assuming all of the fish look fine:
1) How long do I wait to add the coral and inverts back
<Three weeks or so>
2) Do I change 50% water and add charcoal to rid the Chloroquine? Is this sufficient?
<Activated carbon and Polyfilter should do it>
3) I believe that I have read in several places that the necessary bacteria should not be affected by this treatment, is this still your experience?
<Yes... however... the above reference...>
Is there anything that I have overlooked that may cause me problems either immediately; or, long term?
<Turn off your skimmer, and UV, remove any other chemical filtrants...>
Thank you very much for all of your help!
- Kevin
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
[Fwd: Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank]
I left out my water parameters, etc:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate less than 5
SG 1.027
PH 8.3
<These are fine. I'd like to add the possibility of your delivering the CP via foods... One formula calls for 3.7 grams of CP dissolved in a gel powder mix of 300 grams... this mixed with water, foods... less toxic to
non-targeted "other" life. BobF>

Dosing instructions on Chloroquine Phosphate for ich??   2/16/08 Hi, Looked on your site and could not find the answer. I have a 200 gallon saltwater tank with lots of live rock, a few large angelfish and some other smaller fish (no corals). I have ich in my tank and want to try the Chloroquine Phosphate powder....finally found it on line at Fishchemical.com but don't know how to dose it. I would like to dose it several times over a month so that it can kill all of the ich swimmers as they hatch. <Mmm... really needs to be administered outside the display tank... to discount interaction with other materials> Found a dose in a book that was a one time only of 5 to 10 mg. per liter, but I need it to kill over an entire month to kill all the ich. <A few protocols call for the dosage you mention, applied every three days for three treatments> It seems to me that this would require multiple dosing as the medication may degrade in the system over time. I don't want to over dose and kill the fish, or under dose and not kill the ich. I plan to remove 2/3 of my sand (with the sand worms), and as many of my snails and crabs as I can find, and my macro algae, and put them in a 40 gallon tank for 6 weeks to 2 months until all the medication is out of the system and the ich has died off in the removed sand. <... this really won't work. Again, you need to remove, treat all fishes elsewhere> How does one dose this medication? I will be getting it in two days and hope it will not be too late. I hope the powder has the milligrams listed per given quantity. I have a gram scale. Does anyone know if it kills coralline algae on the rocks? Would it be better to not put the snails and sand worms back in and just go snail-less and worm-less so that I can dose this medication anytime I have a problem. If I don't put any of the old sand and stuff back in there may not be a need for the snails as the algae would be all dead?? Thank you in advance for any advice, Lesley in Houston <Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage   2/13/09 I acquired a Kole recently, and put him into quarantine where I've noticed two relatively small white patches on him. About one month ago after reading Bob Fenner's writings here, I acquired some Chloroquine phosphate from a Canadian pharmaceutical company. It came in 250 mg tablets. My question is how to go about trading him. The fish is in a 10 gallon quarantine tank with a seeded filter, but I know that frequent water changes will be necessary. Specifically, how do we administer the does which I believe is 10 mg/liter (380 mg/10 gallon tank)? <You could "grind up" the tablet/s... with a pill crusher... or have a pharmacist do this for you (grind, weigh)... "guess"/measure as to about the right amount otherwise> This drug is not like copper. We have no way of testing its level. As we will need to do water changes from time to time, how can we be sure that the level is correct? <One can only "guess-timate" presently. There is a broad range of efficacy, safety> Your advice will be greatly appreciated as we would very much like to save this fish. Thank you, Jeffrey Castaldo <And re the "patches" period... I would not likely treat for this/these... better to dip/bath and place this Ctenochaetus in your main display. Bob Fenner>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09 Based upon a dosage of 10 mg per 1 L, which is what I have read here, 380 mg (1.5 tablets) would be correct, and easy enough to attain accurately with a pill cutter. <We are in agreement> However, having just acquired this fish, I am curious as to why you recommend to just dip/bath the fish and place it into my main display tank without the usual 30 day quarantine I usually adhere to, and what is normally stressed here on WWW. <This genus is "touchier" than "average"... and that you state you have only a ten gallon to quarantine it in... My high confidence opinion is that there is much less likelihood to be transmittal of pests, parasites (excluded through preventative bath) than subsequent damage to this specimen in a months isolation there> Without a photograph, are you able to give me some insight as to what those patches are? <Mmm, only guesses in either case. I have collected Combtooth tangs in a few countries, though primarily in HI... these are often hand-damaged through moving from hand netting (off a barrier, mist net) to collecting/decomp. buckets... and later processing... Often what one sees here are actual "fingerprints" on the fishes' sides...> And when you recommend a dip/bath, are you referring to plain buffered (8.4) freshwater, with Methylene blue, Formalin, or? <I am referring to all of these possible protocols. I would use pH adjusted  FW, some MB and Formalin... the last with heavy aeration> Also, I am still uncertain as how to go about keeping the dose therapeutic when I need to make frequent water changes. I suppose I could use Prime, but I am uncertain as to how to incorporate that into the treatment. <A good question. I don't know either. Maybe ask the folks at FishVet (.com)> I am sending this follow-up because I do not fully understand, and want to administer the proper treatment. Thank you very much for your assistance. Jeffrey Castaldo <A pleasure to conspire with you, BobF>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09 Thank you for clarifying this to me, and for your excellent advice and honesty. I realize that there is no clear-cut solution for all situations; many times we must learn through trial and error. Best regards, Jeffrey Castaldo <Ah, yes... am doing my best to share, warn folks of my too-many errors... so they can avoid these trials. Cheers! BobF>

Re: puffer/lionfish with Ick : (    1/21/09 I read the article you asked me and many more. The treatment is working and all ich appears to be gone. <Ahh!> The directions on the quinine sulfate bottle are not that clear. they say to ad .25 tsp for every ten gallons, once every three days with a 25% water change in-between treatments. Then it says 3 consecutive treatments is equal to a 9 day continual bath. then it goes on to the warning statements. my question is what do I do after a 9 day continual bath? Do I stop treatment and see if any ich appear? <Mmm, yes> Or do I keep treating? <I would cease after the three exposures> Also the puffer is still not eating. He will chase the food around and attempt to bite it but then just let is go. <Not to worry...> Are spiny Burrfish (spiny box puffer via liveaquaria.com) especially hard to get eating? <Sometimes, yes... and go on feeding strikes at times for no apparent reason... Which you'd know had you searched on WWM, read before writing...> What are your suggestions on the Quinine Sulfate and the puffers "eating problems" thanks for all the help/info, you guys have helped me save some very beloved fish, Mike <Please... I've already referred you to where to educate yourself... Do go there. B>

Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s  12/29/08 Hi WWM Crew, <Greg> Like so many other marine aquarists, I am having a terrible time dealing with ich. <Ah, yes... a scourge. Likely one of the chief reasons folks give up on the hobby... An issue/factor that's been with "us" as long as the hobby has... And one that I tried repeatedly (and haven't given up) addressing the trade re... See my letter archived here: http://wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/ltrquartrdbiz.htm> I first got the infestation in my 400 gallon, mostly FOWLR (I do have a couple of shrimp, urchins, and an anemone), display tank back in July of this year. I initially tried dealing with it by feeding food soaked in Selcon/Garlic but things progressed to the point where I decided to treat with Cupramine in a hospital tank. <No fun for sure> I acquired a used 240 gallon acrylic tank and treated my fish for 28 days with Cupramine which cured the ich. I then kept my fish for another 4 weeks in the hospital tank so that my display remained fallow for a total of 8 weeks. Getting all my fish into the hospital tank was a huge undertaking and included draining my display and removing 525 lbs of live rock in order to catch the fish. <Ughh!> My fish finally went back into the display tank at the end of October. Things initially looked good for 2-3 weeks when, to my surprise, the ich returned. In the interim, I gave away the hospital tank thinking that, with my 60 gallon quarantine tank I would never need such a large tank for treatment again. At this point I am very frustrated. I have thousands of dollars worth of very rare, expensive fish including a prized Conspicuous Angel with Cryptocaryon. The fish are actually all eating well/behaving normally, but they definitely have the disease. At this point, having tried the copper/fallow approach I am ready to treat my entire display tank, liverock included. Initially, I was thinking of Cupramine but I am aware it would be nearly impossible to get a therapeutic concentration with all of the live rock. <Correct... I would not do this... use copper of any sort here> Also, I would like to be able to return the inverts to the tank after treatment. I have been reading about Quinine Sulphate available from National Fish Pharmacy on your website. I have several questions pertaining to its use that I have not found answers for. Is it absorbed by the live rock? <To a minor extent, yes> Will I be able to keep inverts in the tank again after its use and removal with carbon/Poly filters? <Mmm... possibly... both this (QS) and Chloroquine Phosphate (CP) are toxic to some algae, invertebrate groups, along with Protists... really can't be used/recommended for application in a "reef" system> Can I expect a huge ammonia spike from die off from the live rock? <Is possible, yes> (mine is actually quite bare from being continually pecked at by angels/puffers/triggers so I am not really sure how "live" it is). Will it wipe out my biological filter leaving me with an uncycled tank? <Not likely here> My case is a little unique in that my live rock is worth significantly less than my livestock. I am willing to sacrifice it if I can rid my display of this disease. Thank you very much for your time. Greg Cohen <I do wish I had better "news"... there are probiotics, "vaccines" sold for Cryptocaryon... but not in the U.S. as yet... I would try reducing Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOCs) through the use of Ozone here (steady, high RedOx really is a very good adjunct to boosting immune systems approaches)... this may shift the balance here to your advantage. I do hope your fishes rally... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s  12/30/08 Bob, <Tom, thanks much for chiming in... I/we do delete folks emails, including their addresses daily... but I do hope the querior sees your input> Thought I might respond to this since I have a lot of 'experience' dealing with the Quinine, and to answer some of his questions: It definitely is toxic to invertebrates other than hermit crabs. It kills snails in a matter of hours if not minutes. It can be removed with a skimmer, Polyfilter and water changes and inverts can be returned to the tank after these measures are taken. It does not cause a sizable spike in ammonia, as it does not seem to harm the biological filter. or at least has not in my usage of it. Oddly enough, it will completely destroy Cyanobacteria with one dose. The problem is, I'm not sure how effective it is on this mega strain of Ich. It can control it, but I have not been able to eradicate it. I ended up disposing of my Atlantic Blue Tang because he seemed to be a 'carrier' of sorts, meaning after the medication is removed he contracted ich again every time. My other fish, that being the Passer Angel, Yellow Tang, and Lunare Wrasse (Oh, and Lawnmower Blenny) are all resistant, so it would seem. I had the same issue as this guy, in that to set up a hospital tank in order to allow the main system to 'fallow' was quite impractical due to the size requirements. I feel his pain. <Me too> The question I have now is, and Bob, it would pretty much be your opinion, is that I want to introduce a few more fish to the tank once we are settled. What species or genus maybe do you feel are most resistant to ich? <There are a few groups, species that tend toward either end of the spectrum here> The Atlantic Blues are definitely not. and I don't think I want to go with another tang anyhow. Surely there are some types of fish that are more resistant. I'm thinking now it's not a matter of choice for me, but more of what can be considered an option. <... Mmm, please do see the list (of families of fishes) listed in particular at the Cryptocaryon area... these are the more sensitive/potential carriers, "hard to cures"... at the other end of the spectrum...Triggers are tough, basses by and large...> I'm currently in the process of skimming out the Quinine and doing some partials. After a week or so I'm going to reintroduce my QT'd live rock and stars, snails, hermits, pods, etc. After a week or so of observation, I will have the 20 gallon available for a QT tank. I do not know, though, if I have eliminated the Ick because I removed the fish that could not resist it (while continuing the treatment) or whether I've got Ick still in the tank. I feel as if it's still there, and if that's the case, I'd like an opinion as to fish with the best possible chance of resistance. This has been a very trying experience, and I wish him the best of luck. Thomas <Again, much thanks. BobF>

Re: New Ich, Note re Quinine use   8/20/07 Ah! Eureka! Maybe... I consulted National Fish Pharmacy again about the quinine sulfate. Though I treated it as prescribed by the label, I did not turn off my protein skimmer. Now, the label says to turn off any UV filters and remove any carbon, but it said nothing about the skimmer. The guy at NFP said to definitely turn off the skimmer. Just an FYI, for anyone who might use the same treatment. Thomas Roach <Thank you for this. BobF>

Re: Another ich (crypt) question   7/28/07 Hello, Crew <Allan> On following Bob's suggestion for treating resistant strains of crypt, I purchased 100 grams of quinine sulfate. <Grams?!> I searched through the archives and couldn't find anything regarding quinine sulfate and carbon use, and protein skimming. I'm following "normal" protocol for most medications by shutting down the U.V./skimmers and removing carbon. <Good> My question should be directed towards National Fish Pharmacy, but it's early Friday evening and I would rather not wait until Monday for an answer. Can I run the protein skimmers and add carbon with the use of quinine sulfate? Obviously, I would like to maintain optimum water quality if possible. <Quinones are too easily removed by such... I would do as you have. Bob Fenner> Thanks again. You guys/girls are terrific! Allan

Medicine reactions, Quinones, sharks...   7/28/07 Another opinion needed! After speaking with Natl. Fish Pharm, I purchase some quinine sulfate to kill Ick in my tank in the presence of a shark. Though it isn't recommended, we are treating the main system. My snails were removed before treatment and it does not affect the hermit crabs at all. The treatment as prescribed was to add the quinine (done Tuesday) and after five days perform a 25% water change and run carbon to remove the quinine, then after a day repeat the treatment. <Okay> No fish appears to be bothered by the treatment, and they are no longer scratching on rocks at all, so I am sure it is working. My question is about the shark. He still looks really healthy. On Tuesday he ate quite a bit of shark formula w/ Zoe, right after the quinine was added. Day two he came out at feeding time and ate a few pieces. Day three (Thursday) he didn't really show any interest in the food. I've noticed he seems a bit more lethargic and doesn't seem to have an appetite. I'm tempted to go home today and do the partial water change and run carbon to remove the quinine. Tomorrow is day 4 of the treatment though, and I'm wondering if I should try and make it the five days. Do you think that this quinine is bothering the shark? <Not likely> And, have you any experience with the quinine and Ick? <Ah, yes> What would you think is the minimum effective treatment duration? <Two weeks> I'm in a catch 22 here. The sole reason for the quinine is to effectively whack the Ick without hurting the shark. I'd like your opinion on it. There is very little in FAQ about quinine & sharks but one or two notes. Thanks a million. Thomas Roach <Time to purchase or borrow some books Tom... Look for the name Ed Noga. RMF> Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07 I have been on the 'net searching for someone that sells quinine for over an hour... sighs... Any ideas? Thanks... Thomas Roach <I would try here, http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ . Give them a call if you can, they are very knowledgeable and friendly.>

Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07 I had to share this with you guys. I don't know if you care for specific references to suppliers, but this may help someone, it certainly did me. In my search for quinine for treating the Ick in the below situation, I found this: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ <Yes, my experience with them has been quite positive.> Calling them, I spoke with Dr. Brian (sp) who answered the phone. He does research there, and was able to provide me with quinine sulfate. He was very informative and very interested in answering my questions. Apparently his father founded this company after being fed up with bogus medicines and treatments and their misapplication. <Need more of that in the hobby.> He told me about different treatments and why not to use each one, explaining how each worked and the results to be expected. Specifically he told me that quinine sulfate would work better than the hydrochloride and that it was an excellent treatment with sharks present. It is very effective on crypt. He even suggested an alternate treatment program as to save me some money, so he was not interested in selling me something I did not need. <Nice> If you want to post this for your readers or look at the site yourselves please do so. <Will do so.> It is nice to find, along with WetWebMedia, and informative source that is so willing to help the average hobbyist. I hope this helps another reader some other time. <I'm sure it will> Sincerely, Thomas Roach <Thanks for sharing, always good to here people getting real help, retailers going beyond the minimum to help their customers.>

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