Formalin with Sensitive Fishes
Hello WetWeb crew person who takes this question    : )
<Hello! Ryan with your question today>
     I’ve made it a habit to peruse this most awesome website almost everyday as new challenges arise in my marine animal keeping odyssey. <Phenomenal thing to say!> Thank
you all for your much needed knowledge, time and caring for our piscine critters and their sometimes bewildered owners. <Sometimes?  Just joshing>
     I am seeking advise on treating a pretty sensitive flasher wrasse (not sure if P. carpenteri or p. filamentosus) for a rather persistent case of crypt..  He is in a 15 gallon bare bottomed, PVC pipe quarantine tank along with 5 Stonogobiops gobies.  PH  has remained at 8.0.
    I tried a fresh-water dip on the wrasse with adjusted ph to 8.0  and temp around 78f, and the wrasse went stiff and flared, lost color and dropped to the bottom and lay there within 5 seconds. He didn’t move when I scooped him out and put him back in the quarantine where he spent twenty
four hours breathing heavy and lying in a corner before he recovered. <Doesn't sound too promising>  In
fact, I believe I was more out stressed by how he reacted.  Am not inclined to do that again. <And likely not necessary, if the proper medications are added to the quarantine setup.>
     Decided to treat with Kordon Formalin-3 because it seemed this was the better choice for a sensitive fish. <Yes, I was about to suggest it> The biological filter crashed after
first treatment. <Predictably> Have been dosing according to directions on bottle for 7
days at the 10ppm.  Temp. is at 80f.  Because of the filter crash I have been doing 30-50% water changes a day while siphoning bottom, and dosing new change water only. <In QT, 30% daily water changes are almost mandatory!  In a perfect world, you shouldn't rely on the bacterial filter in this scenario> Also am adding Seachem Prime to help protect the fishes
from the unfortunately present ammonia and high nitrites. <OK> Throughout this, so far, 7day ordeal, the wrasse and gobies having been eating (feeding sparingly) with a ravenous appetite.
    On 7th day (AAAAAAARGH!, my back is killing me), about 3 new Ich spots appeared on the wrasse’s dorsal fin. <It's time for copper>
     My questions come from total lack of experience in treating marine fish....would you recommend I stay with the Formalin-3 at double the recent dose to 20ppm (which is what I've begun to do as I wait for a response)? and observe if it was simply that the dose was simply not strong enough? Or do you recommend using the heavier duty formalin (staying with the same type of chemical) for ponds from a company like Aquarium Products instead (I have to order off the internet)?  Or  go on to Coppersafe which I worry will maybe pound the wrasse and gobies more than the formalin.  Is switching medications  way too detrimental to the fishes health? <Run carbon, and in two days with water changes, start copper treatment.  Buy a copper test, you'll need it to get the treatment levels correct.>
     I am trying to be as conscientious a caretaker as possible and absolutely appreciate the time taken by you to consider and answer my questions.
<Yes, and overcoming ICH is the nastiest business in the hobby!  Be patient, you're on your way to curing this ailment!  Feel free to write back if the copper doesn't do the trick.  Cheers, Ryan> Thank you so much, once again,  Esmeralda

The Ich Warrior Is On The Offensive!
Hi Scott,
<Hello again!>
Appreciate your quick response in my time of aquatic turmoil.
Do you think Formalin 3 is a good treatment for the flame angel in the hospital tank? The bottle of Formalin says that the dose can be repeated every 24 hours is that o.k?  I'm going to go easier on the hospital tank meds this time around.
<I'd follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter with this, or any medication>
Like you said,  you must be relentless back to the ich parasites to beat this thing and you're not exaggerating one bit!!
<Yep, but you CAN beat it!>
I'll let you know how this thing goes.
<Please do! Good luck!>
Thanks again, Ed
<Go get 'em, Ed! Regards, Scott F.>

Sticking It To Ich...
Hi Scott,
<Hello, again!>
Formalin medications are effective for Ich, too? Which commercial Formalin-based meds do you recommend? I'd rather stay away from copper, as I've heard one needs to monitor/test it constantly for it to be effective...?
<True- copper requires regular testing to assure that you are maintaining a proper therapeutic dosage, and not poisoning your fishes. Easy to accomplish with an inexpensive copper test kit, but if you are not up to this, then by all means try a different medication. Kordon, Aquarium Products, Sea Chem, and others market such products. Check out our sponsors' links for details...Remember to follow the manufacturer's instructions concerning dosage and treatment period exactly...And please don't use one of those so-called "reef safe" "cures" in your display tank...To do so will result in the voiding of your WetWebMedia warranty, and permanent restriction to keeping Gambusia affinis (mosquito fish- beautiful if you like gray fish with clear fins!) as your exclusive pet fish, for the rest of your natural life span! LOL. Get the point? Don't waste time with them! You're too smart, and keeping mosquito fish is really boring!>
The problem I'm having with putting fish to an isolated tank is the fact that there will be no bio filtration in that tank...? So ammonia levels will be a problem? I will not have time to change water in there every day... or shouldn't I? Thanks, Luke
<Good question, Luke. What I got into the habit of doing a long time ago (thanks to the writings of Bob over the years) is to keep an extra sponge filter (I use the "Dirt Magnet" brand...As "Mr. Nutrient Control Nerd", the brand name freaks me out- but it works great!) sitting in my main system's sump, so that it is always "pre-colonized" with a population of beneficial bacteria. When I need to set up my quarantine tank when I impulsively find that fish that I've been geeking out over at the LFS, I simply pop it in the QT (which was filled with water from the display tank), hook it up, and I'm ready to go. Sterilize the sponge when you're done using it, and place it back in the sump for next time...Easy! Same approach works for your "hospital" tank. You should always have one or two of these ready at all times for situations like this. It only takes a few days to get one of these sponges colonized, and I have never had a nitrite or ammonia situation in the QT as a result of this. If you need to, this would be one of those cases where you can also throw in a bacterial culture like Hagen's "Cycle", or Fritz's "Fritz-Zyme" to help "kick start" things if you can't wait for the sponge to thoroughly "acquire" a bacteria population. As far as water changes during treatment- do make regular (like very other day, if possible) small (1/2 to 1 gallon max, in a 10 gallon tank) changes, siphoning detritus at the same time. This is important, because water quality and environmental stability, not to mention, attention to overall good husbandry habits, are especially vital in a small tank. Good luck! Get to it and beat this thing, okay? Regards, Scott F>

Attacking Ich...
One last question, if you don't mind.....
<Sure- no problem...>
If I set up a quarantine tank of any type, does it matter what type of filter system I use, considering that they'll only be in there a few weeks, and do I keep medicating that tank with Formalin, or just try a copper treatment?
<Usually, it's okay to use an outside power filter, sponge liter, or inside box filter...simple and effective. Use water from your main system, and usually, you'd "pre-colonize" the media in the main tank to acquire beneficial nitrifying bacteria>
Thank you so much for your help. It's nice to get a fast response from someone who knows what's going on. I never seem to get a straight answer from the people working in the local pet stores.
<Glad to be of service! I hope that this information is of use to you! Regards, Scott F>

Ich Treatment
My Bannerfish had huge Ich. I dipped it for 3 minutes into this solution:
1L of fresh water, pH, Ca, temp, alkalinity - same as main tank <good>
One drop of Methylene Blue 5% solution <this stuff works good>
3 drops of Aquatronic Formalite II (15% formaldehyde, copper and nickel sulfate)<would not have used this...read more at this link
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm>  
After I transferred the fish into main tank (it's been 1.5 hrs ago) the breathing rate of fish is about 10x normal!<yes, freshwater dips are very stressful on the fish, and it didn't help that you used Formalin II-very toxic to the fish (outlawed in some states too!!)> But the Ich spots are all gone and the fish cleaned up perfectly.<good to hear> Is it normal for the fish to have this breathing rate after FW+Formaline+copper dip (3min) or did  I overdose on Formalite II?<could have-normally freshwater dips are used with one medication only (not a mixture of 3)> I'm not sure if 3 drops per liter of this solution might have been too much? <believe it says 1 or 2 drops per gallon> It doesn't say how much copper sulfate is in there, but maybe at that dose it was too much for the fish? <could be> Anyway, the fish is alive, just breathing very, very rapidly... will it get over it, <possibly> or is it possible that after that does of copper and Formalin, the fish will die?<maybe> I.e. is copper still toxicity remaining after the copper has been removed? Perhaps too much copper for 3 minutes got into the body of the fish?<do read more at WWM on treatments of ich, would keep your aquariums water in top shape, keep the lights off and maybe a blanket/sheet over the aquarium (to reduce stress) and hope for the best, Good Luck, IanB><<... was this fish returned to the infested tank? RMF>>
Thank you,
Luke

Re: ICH!
Thanks for your reply, 
<<my pleasure.>>
I was treating with quick cure for a few days, but now switched to Coppersafe as even a half dose of the formalin and malachite green looked to be giving them chemical burns (not sure if I was just seeing things, but there skin seemed a little more pale, could have been just the stress I suppose). 
<<Well, these treatments are harsh, just like nasty cough medicine makes you gag and become pale. ;-)>>
 I guess I have two follow up questions: One is that my poor loaches hate the quarantine tank because there's nowhere to hide, as I took out all decorations because I didn't want there to be extra places for the cysts to latch on to. Since removing the decorations I've kept the tank covered most of the time (except for feeding and for inspection) with a towel so they don't get so stressed by movement outside the tank and I read that darkness seems to help cure ich as well any truth to that?).
Is there a better way to isolate shy fish? I have read that the quarantine tank should be bare bottomed and without decorations so that the parasites have nowhere to hide. 
<<Ah sure... some large PVC fittings, pre-made Y's and elbows will work just fine. Safe to use in the quarantine as they won't react with the water or absorb the copper. Also, it sinks.>> 
The other is that I don't have room for all the sick fish in my tiny 5 gallon quarantine tank (heck, the three loaches alone are too big for this tank), I do plan to get another isolation tank after this (my first bout with any type of disease since I dove headfirst into this hobby about two months ago), but since my 40 gallon tank isn't planted (yet), would it be alright to just put all the fish back in that tank and just treat that with copper for about a month? <<You run the risk of stunting/damaging/wiping-out the biological filter in this system. I would recommend against it.>>
All the fish seem to be doing better now (haven't noticed any scratching for a few days), and I never really saw the 1 mm dots that are characteristic of ich, just saw very tiny dots and lots of scratching, so it was just somewhat of a minor breakout I guess, though I will continue to treat and monitor. <<Monitor, then treat... I don't have any experience with Loaches, but I know that there are several marine fish for whom scratching is a normal, everyday occurrence and it has nothing to do with disease or parasites. What the fish's motivations are is only known to the fish, but it's a good thing to keep in mind before grabbing the bottle of copper and dumping into the tank at the first scratch.>>
Thanks again, Jason
<<Cheers, J -- >>

Re: live rock and ick questions II
Hello again Anthony,
Just wanted to tell you I'm going to use the formalin like you suggested, but no one in the area has it in stock so I'm stuck waiting here for it to arrive mail order. 
<indeed, not the only med or even foolproof... but all things considered will serve better or best in this case>
The stores did have formalin/malachite green combinations but after looking over your site I seen that malachite green can be deadly to the tangs. In the mean time I called around a few animal hospitals and found one that deals with marine fish and that he could do a scraping of the skin and gills and identify the problem. 
<wow...outstanding!!!>
My concern is the transportation of the fish, I will probably bring along the yellow tang. They suggest putting the fish in a cooler with water from my main tank. I agree with this, but do you think I should get one of those battery operated air pumps since it will be about three hours by the time the fish will be back home? Hopefully! 
<absolutely a great idea>
Also maybe a little Amquel or Cycle for the ammonia? 
<I don't believe you need either...water changes will be fine instead>
Or should I just wait until I get the formalin? From what I read, formalin sounds like the best treatment for parasites. 
<really a case by case basis... with large scaled and tough fishes that clearly have Crypt... copper is fine after all. But gill flukes are very tough to cure and copper is not the ticket then. Really case by case>
I just like to be sure, I don't want to treat them for something that isn't there and stress them out again when I do know what to treat for. I looked on Kordon's and Aq-Products web site and neither mentioned turning UV or skimmer off during treatment, could you please tell me?
<recommended in both cases as standard QT procedure>
Man, I wish I ran across this site and picked up CMA about 8 months ago, I don't think I would be having these problems. I put each fish in a 20 gallon bare bottom tank with a little hide out and cheapo tetra tec filter and treated each one with copper, but after looking over this site it seems copper is mainly just for ick. 
<correct...and very good for it too>
Also while I was on my formalin hunt I was checking out the live rock and every place that had it, the rock had no coralline algae coverage at all, it was just an ugly brownish color. In all their tanks it was covered in green and purple algae, looked beautiful. I finally asked the last place I was at why it didn't look like it does in their tanks and they told me the algae will come back with time and the addition of calcium. Is this true? 
<absolutely true...just a matter of a few months and consistent dosing of calcium and Seabuffer>
Or do you think I would be better off ordering from one of the online retailers? I'm using a total of 220watts All Glass compact fluorescents with the 9325 K bulbs. Would this amount of light be enough to sustain the algae growth on a 125 gallon? 
<fine for live rock... but not all coral/invertebrates>
One more thing I seek your advice on is my wet dry filter. It is probably 12 or so years old and the bio media is this big roll of filter felt with a black plastic mesh rolled inside, I believe its called DLS. 
<wow! I haven't seen that for years!!!>
I guess my question is: would using these plastic bio-balls as there called, be a better media for the bacteria to colonize? 
<better yes, but if you haven't had ammonia problems and the media is not terribly soiled, why bother>
The area where the plastic media can go is 16x11x8. Is there a desired flow rate through these things? Is it possible to flow too much water through them? 
<yes...high flow or channeling is a problem indeed. Moderate flow is recommended>
One thing I noticed in your Q's and A's is the Prizm hang on protein skimmer, and that you guys rate it for about a 30 gallon tank. I couldn't agree more, I have used it for five months and it never pulled out more than a few ounces a week. I think the collection cup evaporated just as fast as it could pull anything out. 
<hehe... yes, to say that most of us are less than impressed with its performance would be an understatement>
Maybe I can use it for curing my rock. 
<actually a very good idea for high nutrient systems>
Recently purchased a Berlin Turbo and the cup is full approx. every three days. 
<not bad... but do aim for daily production>
The gunk collected smells so bad I have to dump it down the street. If you don't have time to respond to all questions, I would understand, my main concern right now is transporting the yellow tang or if you don't think its necessary I'll just wait for the formalin. Thank you very much kind sir.
<the gill scraping is not necessary but a wonderful option. Your call as long as the fish looks strong in the meantime. I'm inclined to leave him rest at home, do freshwater baths on it and wait for the medication. Best regards, Anthony>

Re: ich III
Thank you very much for your response on both my emails both of them were very helpful. 
<very welcome>
I'm having a tough time finding someone who sells formalin. 
<several popular products have this in it... it is also available from some local pharmacies. If it is too much trouble that way, any of a number of mail order places stock it and can have it to you within 48 hours. But strategically from a mail order company near you>
A couple of friends of mine said they have had great results using copper power have you ever heard of this stuff and could that be used in my QT tank instead of formalin. 
<again... copper is very effective only on tolerant large scaled fishes (some tangs, clowns, damsels and the like) but extremely toxic to small scaled and sensitive species like Sweetlips and even Powder Blues. The Powder Blue has an awful reputation in captivity for many reasons, not the least of which is their tendency to suffer parasites easily>
I also noticed that the spots on my powder blue tang this morning are disappearing 
<very common... Ich has an extremely short life cycle (within 24 hours)... the spots commonly wax and wane>
and I have not moved him to the QT tank yet what do you make of that. 
<QT is always best>
All fish are eating very well including the 2 with ick do you think the ick on the fish is just from stress. 
<we have no way of knowing for certain>
Do you think I should wait to see if the fishes immune system can get rid of the ick on its own or move them to the QT tank right away. 
<too many fish die from such hesitation... if you are asking me for my best advice, it is a daily water change in a small QT tank with medication. With stable temperatures, good food, etc (proper QT) the fish has an extremely good chance of being cured within 2 weeks. Without it you stand to watch the pathogen possibly flare and take every other living fish out with him, or anything in between. Best regards, Anthony>
Thanks for your help.

Re: ich IV
I was reading that the temperature of the water should be under 80 degrees is this correct? Should I also remove all carbon from the filter that I'm using.
<temperature is subjective... cooler has more oxygen but favors conditions for parasites during treatment. Warmer is better is you have very good aeration/oxygenation. And yes, do remove chemical filtration like carbon during medication treatments. Regards, Anthony>

Re: ich V
I was able to buy formalin-3.  Is this good for curing the ick. 
<if it is pure formalin, yes. If not you may have to watch more closely or lighten the dose dependant on what/if the combination drug is>
I set up my quarantine tank the pH, temperature and specific gravity are identical to my main tank. Do I need to drip the fish or just move him right into the QT tank.
<a brief acclimation of 15 minutes is recommended. Anthony>

Re: ich VI
Do you think it is necessary to do fresh water dips everyday or would the QT tank be enough. 
<daily freshwater dips are extremely effective and recommended for most fish. 5-8 consecutive rids most large external parasites like common Ich>
I would think the fresh water dips would put a lot of added stress on an already sick fish. 
<nope... if done properly, it is less stressful than chemotherapy like a 21 day copper treatment. Bona fide academics have run tests to this effect. FW dips are stressful, but not as stressful as parasites chewing up their gills...hehe>
I'm currently using a 10 gallon QT tank and using formalin 3 as the medication each teaspoon treats 10 gallons of water with 10mg/l of formaldehyde its says I can double the dose but I have only used I dose can you give me an opinion on this thanks always.
<as I mentioned before, I have no direct experience with this product. the double dose is likely fine with large scaled fishes, but I would resist with weak or known sensitive fishes like scaleless species. Anthony>

Maroon Clown fish with Ich?
Bob,
<<JasonC here filling in for Bob while he packs for his upcoming dive trip.>>
I have a 55 gallon tank with 1 yellow tang, 1 maroon clown fish, 1 velvet and 1 blue damsel. I also have several green/brown button polyps, Christmas tree worms, feather dusters, some hard coral (?) that came with the LR (about 25 pounds of it) etc. My question is :
Recently I noticed some little white spots on my clown fish and did a fresh water dip (4 times).
 <<in what period?>>
He/she has been eating fine, does not scratch at all, and all spots seem to be along its white stripe and on top of the head. My water parameters are : Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 10ppm (?) pH 8.2 and Alkalinity 3 to 3.5. I have been adding Alkalinity Plus/Hardness every other day.
 <<for any particular reason?>> 
Does this sound like Ich, or I shouldn't worry about it? 
<<could be Ick, may also be stress - you should be at least concerned>> If it is indeed ich, why isn't the clown fish scratching? 
<<hasn't reached that stage or epidemic proportion. Most times the spots are like a scab - a sign that the parasite has BEEN there, but may not still be there.>> 
In addition, my LPS suggested Organicure, however I am concerned that it will hurt my coral states that it has COPPER 1.25% and FORMALDEHYDE 17%). 
<<you should be concerned - it will almost undoubtedly cause problems for your coral>> 
Should I treat the fish separately in a QT or is the ich already established in the tank? 
<<If you must treat the fish with harsh mechanisms and you want to save your corals/invertebrates, then yes you will have to remove the clown. As for the infestation of your system, it is probably too late - has it become established? No easy way to tell, give it time and the answer will be a solid yes.>>
Thank you for your attention, D.
<<do try to avail yourself to the assorted readings on the WWM site, and in particular do a search on HYPOSALINITY - a regimen for lowering the specific gravity of your tank to help remedy this situation. In addition, your tank is a prime candidate for a biological cleaner like a Cleaner Shrimp. Check these links:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm 
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cleaner.htm 
Cheers, J -- >>

Ich/Fresh water Dips
Hi Bob/Steven,
Thanks for your valued advise, it's very much appreciated. I have another question for you. I have been reading your Diseases section at WWM concerning Ich and F/W dips. The situation: I have a 30gal quarantine tank that is currently housing a Bi-color Angel and Regal Tang. The Regal Tang is showing signs of what looks like ICH (salt like grains on both sides of it's body). I bought both fish just a day ago. When I bought him he looked fine. I followed the acclimation procedures as outlined by FFExpress. This morning I noticed the Ich on the Tang.
Is using Kordon Rid - Ich + okay for the Bicolor Angel?
<The active ingredient in that product is Malachite Green and Formalin. I am pretty sure the Malachite Green is bad for Centropyges.>
He doesn't show any sign of Ich, but, as he is new and in the same q-tank as the regal tang I'm thinking he needs Rid - Ich as a precautionary step. What do you think?
<I would begin with daily water changes first. A 25% daily water change on a QT tank can effect a cure for Cryptocaryon if done everyday for two weeks.>
I plan on performing the usual other steps as well; water change, raise the temp slightly, lower salinity to upper teens and a 5 min f/w dip.
<I like the dips, too, but try the daily changes first and then escalate the treatments if no response is seen.>
But please let me know if you think the Rid Ich + is okay for the Dwarf Angel? Thanks, Steve Segura of San Jose, CA
<Good luck! -Steven Pro>