CryptChelCuCures

Home

Information Pages:

Marine Aquarium
Articles/ FAQs

(enter words you'd like highlighted in this page)

Freshwater Aquarium
Articles/ FAQs

Planted Aquarium
Articles/ FAQs

Brackish Systems
Articles/ FAQs

Popular Pages:

Features:

Daily FAQs

FW Daily FAQs

SW Pix of the Day

FW Pix of the Day

Conscientious Aquarist Magazine

New On WWM

Helpful Links

Hobbyist Forum bb.WetWebMedia

Ask the WWM Crew a Question

Calendars

Search Feature

Admin Index

Cover Images

FAQs on Marine Ich, Cryptocaryoniasis & Cures Involving Chelated Copper

Example Products: Cupramine (SeaChem)
CopperSafe (Mardel)
Copper Power
Cuprazin

Better than free copper due to staying in solution longer...

Notes:
Can affect biological filtration/nitrification.,
Need to be tested for at least daily... with a chelated copper test kit|
Treat for two weeks... monitor water quality...
NOT to be used in a main tank, in the presence of carbonates...

Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper.
<... a very poor idea>
What do you think? Would you advise this?
<No and no>
The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand.
<... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS>
There would be no inverts or LR at all.
<So?>
I plan to treat using Cupramine.
<A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here>
How long should I treat the tank?

Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks.
Thank you for any help you can provide.
-Peter
<Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08
Hello,
<Peter>
Thank you for the quick reply.
<Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here>
So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult?
<Adsorbed>
Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary?
<No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work>
Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks.
<... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...>
I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper.
Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM.
-Peter

If I use a chelated copper treatment will it kill off or reduce my biological filter. 2/10/08
Fred.
<Not if used properly. Cheers, Neale.> <<Mmmm, actually... usually does in actual practice. I'd be ready, prepare for ameliorative action. RMF>>

Re: Ich, Hypo, Copper, Moray, Formalin, Steven Pro request - 1/24/08
Hi Bob,
<Simon>
I have purchased the second Salifert test and it shows exactly the same colours as the first, so I am confident that this test is reliable, just extremely difficult to read and not very accurate.

It is certainly not accurate enough for use with Cupramine as when I add an extra dose to the test the colour difference is negligible at best.
<Yes>
I will keep a close eye on the over the next week and if I think they are ok I'll stretch to Wednesday before I put them in. This is because I removed the media from the canisters on Tuesday, and I feel more confident that the copper level would have been maintained without the media there, so 8 days from Tuesday is Wednesday.
<Okay... do know though that even "simple" reaction with components of the water do precipitate the copper...>
I think I will have to go for a more accurate, and therefore expensive I suppose, method of testing this next time as you suggest.
<Good>
Thank you for your advice, I did enjoy the worms on that coral!
Simon, England
<Cheers, BobF>

Canthigaster valentini with Crypt – 01/02/2008
Hi,
<Hello.>
I have a Valentini Puffer fish that has ich and has had it for about 2 weeks. He's doing fine, been eating well and looking healthy other than the white spots. I first tried soaking all his food in garlic and Zoë and then went about using some organic rid ich med (because it was more an organic deal and not a med). The tank he's in is a FOWLR tank and some of the live rock was more base rock then anything. I decided to use CopperSafe in the DT tank (don't kill me)

and have a chelated copper test kit for API to watch closely. After looking all over the web, it seems that I should keep this particular brand copper at about 1.4-2ppm. I have kept it about 1.5 or so as I'm worried about using copper with this puffer as it is.
<Should be okay. This is a chelated product (those chelated molecules are heavier than ionic copper) that aside of copper consist of other chemicals. Therefore the necessary level is high compared to ionic copper recommendations. The good thing with chelated products is that they release the copper over time. However, substrate and rock will influence the copper efficiency, one reason why all copper products should only be used in quarantine tanks.>
I think that CopperSafe is the least toxic copper treatment out there. This morning he puffed up for the first time when no other fish was around or messing with him. I've heard that this is normal but that it might also be stress. What should be my next steps? Thanks.
<Monitor with your chelated copper test kit, keep the level, and also check your ammonia level daily. Read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked FAQs to learn about the life cycle of the parasite. Keep the copper level for at least 7-10 days. After that time and if the spots disappear use activated carbon to remove the copper from the system. Change the carbon every 14 days. If the spots come back in a new cycle use a quarantine tank without rocks and substrate for treatment. Cheers und good luck, Marco.>

Re: Ick in a saltwater aquarium, Treatment 11/20/07
Hi, I just wanted to say thank you Chris for helping me with my ick problem.
<Welcome>
I was looking in a pet store for a copper product and all I could fine was chelated copper sulfate, but it seems to be working, her ick is almost gone and I only put it in 2 days ago.
<Not really gone yet, just cycled off. The copper only treats the stage at which the parasites are free swimming looking for a new host, so you may see more signs of ich until it all cycles off and into the stage where the copper can effect it.>
Again I just wanted to say thank you, as you were the only one I talked to that actually knew what they were doing.
<Sometimes I get lucky.>
Thanks again
Elisha
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Copper treatment and Ammonia dilution; Galaxea problem – 07/16/07
Hi Crew, <Hi.>
I am treating my fish for ick with a product called CopperSafe <good>. My clown goby that looked real bad has cleared up and is eating, my spotted cardinal did not seem to have it, but he stopped eating, but now is eating and my royal Gramma had it, but did not seem too bad, but he died. I tested the water for ammonia and it is at least 1.
<Yikes, I hope you are treating your fish in a tank without live rock/sand and invertebrates. CopperSafe is a chelated copper product. While easier to handle than ionic copper, it is still best to monitor the chelated copper level with an adequate test kit.>
I am using a product called AmmoLock for ammonia and the fish seem ok. I am also making a 30% water change. Should I make more drastic water changes?
<Not a fan of this and similar products in that case. While it may not hurt, I’d rather rely on large water changes to keep the ammonia down and additionally remove free stages of the parasites. Be sure to measure ammonia at least daily and act accordingly.>
I got a Galaxea, see pictures (550 is current and 531 is as it was 2 weeks ago) and it is not doing well. It is in a 10 gallon with 65w pc. Does it need special feeding or more light?
<<Pix not saved. RMF>>
<Ensure the water quality is good at any time. Nitrates can be around 5, but temperature, salinity and pH should not change too much. Your lighting should be sufficient, but the small water volume might go through severe daily changes. Check that. Try feeding it just like other LPS corals. Give it some time. If its condition does not improve, it might do better in another tank. Beware this coral is quite aggressive and can sting animals almost one foot away. See http://www.wetwebmedia.com/oculinidae.htm and the linked FAQs.>
I cannot find much info about it. I got it as a package deal and had no choice. I also got a very large Fungia but gave it away. Should I do the same for the Galaxea?
Thanks.
<Welcome and good luck with your treatment. Marco.>

Ich! The high price of not deciding 4/18/07
Greetings:
<Hail and Hello!>
I have read exhaustively about ich and its treatment, but my situation has compelled me to seek your help. It seems that the more I read, the more uncertain I become about how to treat. I am aware that I need to remove all fish and let the tank lie fallow for 4-6 weeks, however, it's the method of treatment that is causing me grief.
First the inhabitants: Regal Tang, Coral Beauty Angel, Six Line Wrasse, Ocellaris Clown, Banggai Cardinal, Lyretail Anthias, Sailfin Tang, six Blue Green Chromis, and until I killed it, a Kole Tang. These are all housed in a 180 gallon tank, with ideal water parameters. I first noticed the ich a couple of weeks ago. I read one of the FAQ's that mentioned that the microbubbles from a skimmer can sometimes attach to fish and give the appearance of ich, so I turned it off and it seemed to go away. Well, I was wrong and discovered (by reading) that ich is cyclical and won't always show up. Anyway, having only a six gallon quarantine, I scrambled to get a 20 gallon set up and used display tank water to fill it.
<Mmm, I would have used all new (pre-made, stored) water and dipped/bathed all the fishes enroute from the main tank to the treatment one>
I used a filter pad and some gravel in a mesh bag from the display for bio filtration.
<... you're contaminating the new system...>
I let this run for two days, which I would have preferred to be longer, but my Kole Tang was going downhill fast and beginning to have labored breathing. I dosed my 20 gallon with half of the recommended amount of Coppersafe
<... has to be at sufficient dosage... by testing...>
and verified that all water parameters matched the main tank exactly, including the temperature. I put the tang in and he was dead within two hours. Perhaps it was too far gone and the stress of the move did him in, but when I pulled him out he was discolored with large brown spots. Did I use too much copper?
<How much cupric ion was present?>
 My Regal seems to be next on the critical list. It has cloudy eyes with a few white spots, looks very emaciated and has been less active. It does eat a little, but its body appears to be somewhat wrinkled and distorted.
<Mmm... might not be Cryptocaryon...>
Needless to say, I'm very reluctant to put any other fish in the QT.
<... Not a quarantine tank (too late for that...), but a treatment system... All fishes need (must need) be treated... or you might consider defaulting to having/keeping your main tank as infested... seek some sort of balance here...>
I do have a copper test kit and will monitor the level closely,
<Will?>
but the issue is the disparate opinions regarding the treatment of the livestock in my tank.
<... You've got to decide, as in "nothing is decided until it's done" what your course of action is going to be... Do you see/realize the blame game you're playing here? Settle on the facts... not errant, disparate opinions... this is a matter of science, not hodge podge opinions... Perhaps a cursory review of Ed Noga's "Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment"... and soon...>
Copper seems to be the preferred method of treatment, but it's hard on tangs (as I discovered firsthand), dwarf angels and clowns. I can't discern whether I should not use it for the angel and clown at all or just monitor carefully and hope for the best. Again, I have two tanks and could treat with separate chemicals in each, but my experience thus far seems to be paralyzing my decision making ability.
<... my friend... I have invested years of my life relating what works, what is fallacy re the topic of fish pathology... Read what is posted: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above>
My apologies if the answers to my questions lie somewhere in the hundreds of articles and postings, but I have tried to perform due diligence in my reading and still can't be sure of what to do. I hope that you can help me out.
Thanks,
Lloyd H.
<Bob Fenner>

Treatment of Marine Ich- Which Option Is Best? 4/4/07
Dear Crew,
<Scott F. your Crew member tonight!>
I love the site, and I've learned a great deal from it. I think I've read all the articles and FAQ's on your site regarding ich, formalin, and copper, but I still have some questions. I purchased a Flame Dwarf Angel and a Banggai Cardinal a week ago and put them in a 15 gallon QT. Within a few days, the Flame Angel developed ich.
<Sorry to hear that- but it's great that you embraced a quarantine procedure! As bad as it sounds, it's better to have the fish come down with an illness in the quarantine tank than in your display system.>
I read on your site that flame angels are sensitive to both copper and formalin, but thought the formalin would be the better way to go.
<According to most people, it is. I personally have always used chelated copper remedies with good results in Centropyge Angelfishes. You MUST follow the manufacturer's recommendations for dosage and duration to the letter, and be sure to test the copper levels daily to assure that you are maintaining a correct therapeutic dose. Yes, Centropyge can be sensitive to copper, so I guess I cannot say that I "recommend" it for everyone. However, it has been, and will continue to be my remedy of choice for treatment of Cryptocaryon.>
I put my first dose of formalin in the QT Sunday, and by Monday night, the flame angel was dead (not a good day).
<Sorry to hear that. One of the reasons I like copper is that you can actually test for the concentration, to make sure that you're not overdosing. Nonetheless, many hobbyists use formalin-based products for their treatment of this illness with good results.>
With the Flame Angel gone, am I better switching to non-chelated copper with a copper test, or should I continue with the formalin? It sound like copper may be more effective.
<Well, you saw my thoughts! I'd stick it out with copper, myself, as outlined above.>
Also, I am curing live rock and inadvertently rinse off the live
rock in a bucket I had been using for water changes for the QT tank. Do I most likely have ich on my live rock now? And if so, do I need to leave it fallow in my curing tub for another 6 - 8 weeks like I would need to do for a display tank?
<A good thought on your part! I would definitely keep it in a separate holding container for the period that you mention. You just have to assume that the rock may be hosting a stage of the causative protozoa, and as such, it's too risky to place it in your display tank yet.>
Thanks for your help.
<Glad to be of service! Keep up with your excellent observations and intuitive thinking! It will serve you well in this hobby!>
P.S. I love CMA, but it is starting to get somewhat dated. Does Bob have any plans of coming out with a second edition? I know I would buy it! <<Thank you for this prompting... Have sent your note to James Lawrence/Microcosm... we never even got the "Reef" version of this work into print! Bob Fenner>>
Darren White
Downingtown, PA
<Well...whaddya think, Bob? Regards, Scott F.>

Re: Clown ok? Chelated copper... what it be 03/26/07
Bob:
<Michael>
Photo attached as you requested.
<Thank you>
I've been surfing through your site, reading other posts. Found the link to posts with the correct way to treat fish. However, I still find the site to be a bit confusing.
<I as well... is a (well, for me) monumental task to organize, make this tool more useful/service-able as it unfolds... If you have input re how this resource might be next, better structured, please do speak up>
Or is it maybe products & cures that confuse me.
<This is assuredly another area of morass... But not due to you or I's lack of diligence... There is exceedingly little science to much of the products sold as "medications" in the ornamental aquatics field... Nowhere are folks made to prove the efficacy of their products, conduct trials for effectiveness. Much of what is sold is outright flim flam>
I found and printed your articles Would you please clarify a few things?
<Will gladly try>
1. Velvet and ich are treated by copper.
<Mmm, much more the latter, though, yes, both are treated by such>
I have CopperSafe. The dosage it says to put in the water raises copper levels to about 2.0 PPM.
<Yes... this is a chelated product... the active ingredient, the actual cupric ion (Cu++) is liganded/sequestered... temporarily "tied to" another molecule... enabling it to stay in solution longer... Akin to the "tiny time capsules" in some analgesics... to deliver said Copper/Cupric ion over a longer period of time than if the simple ion were applied... Not knowing you at all I am not able to proffer much of a relation... How about the "stabilizer", "conditioner" of swimming pools/spas? Tri-Isocyanuric acid? It serves operationally the same function as the chelation here... keeping chlorine in solution over a longer period of time to keep the water microbe and algal free... Does this make sense?>
However, it looks like the recommendation for saltwater is about 0.15 PPM (which is not in the CopperSafe directions).
<This is also correct, and equivalent... the first is the "total" copper if you will (as if all the chelation were removed) and the last is the minimum "free" copper (the cupric ion concentration). Understood?>
Clownfish do not tolerate copper well.
<Correct... as a matter of wanting to be complete... or more so in these statements, all fishes have a sliding range of toxic response to copper... as individuals... per their present health, other environmental factors... Okay?>
I only discovered this after dosing the Clown in the quarantine tank following the CopperSafe directions. That was yesterday (3/25) before lunch time. Copper levels were measuring at .25 PPM with my Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit. The clownfish wasn't eating and I assumed it was the higher copper levels. Did a partial (about 1-2 gal) water change. Re-measured today. Still registering around .25, so I did about a 50% change (4-5 gal). However, the test kit doesn't go below .25 PPM.
<... I would look into having/using another test kit here... One made to test for chelated copper... and test/maintain the sequestered strength at the 2.0 ppm mark (as well)... Wakarimas?>
How much copper should I be dosing the fish with exactly?
<Per the tests... chelated and/or free... Comprendes?>
Is there another product on the market that is designed specifically for saltwater fish and not so potent as Coppersafe?
<Mmm, please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptchelcucures.htm
All the chelated brands are fine... I have used all...>
2. I picked up on the issue of substrate harboring the protozoans from ich or velvet. I had a small amount of substrate in the tank to help with bacteria. Removed this. Now there's bare bottom with a fine film of dust and broken down food particles. Will this still harbor the disease?
<Mmm, can, yes... the copper/cupric ion is really only able to kill the free-swimming stage/s... And the copper does aid in making the fish hosts slough off the attached phase/s... along with elevated temp.... to speed up the development... but siphoning out the bottom, even moving affected fishes is warranted>
The clownfish is swimming in circles looking at the bottom of the tank. Is this normal behavior in a glass bottom tank? He still is not eating.
<Is to be expected...>
3. For the whole 3 weeks that I had the clown in quarantine, he ate fine and showed no signs of disease. I was running the quarantine at low salinity, 1.012. I ONLY noticed the "dust and dots" on him when I pulled him from quarantine and started acclimating him to the display tank water, which is at 1.022. Is it possible that the film on the fish is from his slime coat reacting to the salinity change, rather than ich or velvet?
<Not likely, no... The appearance is almost 100% confirmed... However... the only way to be absolutely sure... Microscopic examination...>
I only see it on him now when I look at him up close, it is that fine of a texture. If this disease acts ad fast as I understand it does, shouldn't he be dead by now?
<Usually yes... the Copper may have reduced the virulence, population...>
It is at least 2 days total that the disease was manifesting itself on him.
He was 3 weeks in quarantine. Something doesn't make sense to me with the time frame. He was the only fish in quarantine, no others were introduced.
<... Perhaps the reservoir host, situation is in the main system>
4. I also found your information on doing a fresh water dip. Tried this on the clown yesterday and he did not tolerate this at all.
<Clowns, fishes that live in close association with invertebrates are frequently intolerant of the same sorts of exposures>
As soon as a I put him in the water he was moving about and trying to jump out. As soon as he floated on the bottom of the bucket, I scooped him out & put him back in the quarantine tank.
The spots have not grown on the clown and may have diminished a bit, but again the lighting in the quarantine isn't as bright as the display tank. I put different lights on it and can see better though.
My apologies for going on about this. It has been on my mind constantly since Saturday night and I've been reading as much as I can.
<Good...>
Any other suggestions you may have are appreciated. At this point, I know I have to treat the fish and run the quarantine tank. The only way I've gathered to do this is with copper and freshwater dips as needed. Do I have this correct?
<I would treat all fishes outside the main tank... allow it to run w/o fish hosts for at least a month... Do please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm
and consider seeking out the anti-malarial listed... If this is Velvet/Amyloodinium, this compound will be your best shot at an actual cure. Bob Fenner>
Thanks.
Michael

Copper - 04/27/06
Dear Mr. Bob Fenner
<Rachel>
Thanks a lot on the last reply. I need a bit more of your valuable help. Do you think that my tank’s beneficial bacteria will adapt to chelated copper and grow over time even though copper is still in the tank?
<Can to some extent, yes>
And also is chelated copper effective to treat a tank because some people say that ionic copper is better?
<Is actually only ionic copper that is much use here. The chelating/sequestering is valuable to keep a ready dosage in solution... put another way, the use of a chelate allows one to place a much larger, slowly-de-chelating concentration in place...>
Why? It’s pretty hard to find a good test kit for chelated copper. Do you know of any good brand that’ll do the job because Seachem test kit didn’t work at all?
<There are several... see/use the Net re>
From the day that I got my Bannerfish it only eats dried worms and the LFS said it’s not that nutritious. I heard that Vitamin C is really good for fish so is it alright if I dip dried worms in Vitamin C and feed it?
<Mmm, marine fishes drink appreciable amounts of their environment... and there are ancillary benefits of adding vitamins directly to the water... This is what I would do here>
Also I got a Vitamin C liquid from a Pharmacy and this certain brand is for little children. Its pure Vitamin C. Do you think it’ll be good for fish? Best regards.
<All Vitamin C molecules are identical, of use>
Rachel
<Bob Fenner>

Copper Treatment 2/19/07
Dear Mr. Fenner/James
<Akila>
I purchased a 3” Auriga Butterfly from the LFS yesterday and it’s in my 20G QT now. I have dropped my Gravity to 1.015. Is this gravity suitable to treat the Auriga? The butterfly has not shown any ill effects up to now (tap on wood) but I have not fed him yet.
<Personally, I wouldn't go much below 1.018.>
I also want to treat this QT with chelated copper. This is the only type of copper available at the store. Do you think chelated copper is effective???
<Is effective but not easy to control. The dosage rate is usually related to tank volume, and if this volume is misjudged, the treatment can be ineffective or dangerously high.
As for butterflies, they have a heightened sensitivity to copper, and long-term use can suppress their immune system making the fish more susceptible to other pathogens, kind of like throwing gas on the fire. Anyway, I like to use non-chelated copper. It generally has a half life of about 12 hours, so if the dose was slightly high, it would lower in a short time. When using non-chelated, it is very important to monitor the level at least twice a day to insure an effective treatment level. As for butterflies, I'd start with a half dose. If it were me, I'd order non-chelated copper from your nearest
etailer and overnight it. Shouldn't cost that much shipping-wise for a small item like that.>
My test kit says it measures Cu+2 what does this +2 mean? The range they have mentioned is 0.25 mg/l to 2.5 mg/l. What is the correct concentration I have to use to treat the QT fish???
<Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cu2+ is the chelated form. <<Mmm, no... there is another molecule tied/liganded to this. Copper sulfate (pentahydrate before dissolution in water... sometimes with addition of citric acid, other solubilizers... CuSO4, is a common formulation... this "breaks down" in basic (high pH) solutions... to yield the cupric ion (Cu++). RMF>> Cu+ would be the non-chelated which also forms a blue, blue/green coloration when mixed with a small amount of water. So, based on your info, your test kit is measuring chelated copper. <<Mmm... well... chelated copper "breaks down" to be the same ionic copper (Cu++)... over time... per design... neither looks blue unless in high concentration. RMF>> As for dosing, chelated would be 0.2ppm and ionic, 0.15-0.20 ppm. When using chelated, and treating by water volume, these levels will generally exceed 0.20ppm.>
One last thing, how many times during this 2-week period should I change water and what percentage should I change. FYI I use natural seawater so should I do it frequently?
<I wouldn't do this unless ammonia is detected. You must also monitor this during treatment. Two-week period? Treatment should last at least 21 days to ensure the kill of hatching (hatching doesn't sound right??) cysts, as copper is ineffective to them until then. Do use any chemical filtration during treatment, as it will absorb the copper from the water.>
Hope to hear from you guys soon and thanks in advance for any advice.
<You're welcome, James (Salty Dog)>
Take care,
Best regards,
Akila

Copper stuff from Bob Goeman's
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005
Hi Bob
Thanks for copying me and "dated" might be a good way to put my thoughts on the use of chelated copper. However, what bothers me the most about its use is that without a test kit specifically made to test for the ˜brand" chelated copper being used, the average hobbyist is at peril, or more precisely, his wet pets that are being treated are at peril.
<Yes... trouble enough getting folks to test for period>
I know the ionic or slightly complexed stuff is more of an effort in most treatment environments, but if done correctly, there are side benefits, such as it is much easier to remove from solution and will not introduce undesirable chelating agents such as EDTA.
<Agreed>
However, if done correctly, chelated copper can be a better choice. It's just the initial dosing in relation to water quantity and accurate testing that concerns me.
<We are in agreement on this concern as well>
Will update my thoughts on the subject when and where necessary in future letters to readers.
Cheers
Bob Goemans
<Thank you my friend. Hope to see you about soon. Bob F>

Red Sea Fishes... crypt, copper use
Hi,
<Hello>
Over the past two years I have successfully quarantined around 10 fish. None of them came down with anything and they are all fine and dandy in my 400 gallon tank. Then, I purchased a Green bird wrasse and lipstick tang from the Red Sea.
<Okay>
They came down with white spot so I used Cuprazin, a chelated copper treatment. The white spot went away and came back 3 times. The 3rd time they were completely covered, started to go lopsided and died within 6 hours.
<Successive reproduction of the parasite, weakening of hosts... hyperinfection. Did you use a copper (chelated variety) test kit? You did not maintain a physiological dose of cupric ion>
 My 50 gallon quarantine tank was properly set up with filter material from my main sump. So, ammonia was 0, nitrite 0, kH 10, ph 8.4.
Everything ok. And they were eating and swimming well until 3rd hit of whitespot. Nightmare. So, 6 months later a Red Sea Asfur Angel catches my eye, so I buy him. Again he gets white spot minutes after going into quarantine,
<Mmm, you do understand your actual system has the Cryptocaryon? It will be there, ready to infest any/all, but mostly new fishes... until eradicated>
same pattern, 3 rd time he's covered and dies the same way after 6 hours. I'm so upset. Is the Cuprazin a rubbish product or is there something more deadly with the red sea whitespot? After the 2nd hit he was so well so I presumed he was better. This has really put me of buying anymore fish for a long time.
Kind Regards,
James.
<James, you apparently have a generally thorough understanding of marine aquarium keeping, but an incomplete one re marine ich... Do yourself and giant favor and read over the archived materials on WWM re marine parasitic disease en toto, Cryptocaryon... and the use of copper compounds. Bob Fenner>

Copper Test, Cupramine
Hello Bob,
<Scott F. this morning>
I'm starting to treat my 20 gallons SW tank (1 yellow tang with ich) with Cupramine. I added 2 ml of medication per instruction. I'm using Salifert to test for copper level but it shows zero.
<Seachem indicates that an effective therapeutic dose of this product is 0.5ppm>
The tank does have aragonite substrate.
<The manufacturer advises that some copper may fall out of solution in tanks with rock/substrate. Always best to treat in a quarantine/hospital tank with no decor>
My question: Can I use this test kit to test for copper level when treating the tank with Cupramine? If not then would you please recommend me another brand? As always, thank you very much for your help. Dzung.
<I'd actually recommend the SeaChem test kit when using this product. Follow their instructions exactly, and you should be okay! Do consult with Seachem directly if you have other questions/concerns about this product. They are good people and are quite helpful. Good luck!>

Proper Copper? (Using Copper Sulphate Correctly>
Hi, hope you can rescue me again :-)
<Scott F. at the ready!>
First of all , I took your advice and bought a bare tank, transferred my fish to that tank. I've spend $60 buying all the pepper-based anti-parasite products - they all suck sh*t.
<Well said- a bit more colloquial than I might have said here- but accurate, nonetheless!>
I also dosed Mardel CopperSafe as prescribed at 5ml/4gallons.

Now, I have tons of questions, hope you can help me out :-) Thank you, as always.
<Ready to give it a shot!>
- First of all there seems to be no info on what will be concentration of copper after the recommended dosage... would you happen to know? My local aq. supplier does not carry copper kits :-
<That's a major handicap...I HIGHLY advise that you refrain from using copper without a test kit...If improperly dosed, the results can be fatal>
- Is the copper removed by skimming?
<Not to any significant degree>
- I've heard that ionic copper is better for Ich and Velvet (marine), is that true?

- How effective is CopperSafe against Brooklynella (Clownfish disease)?
<Not very, IMO. I'd recommend preparations containing Formalin/Malachite Green>
- I'm still not sure if my fish have Ich or Velvet... is there a simple way to distinguish the two?
<Well, "Velvet" (Amyloodinium) has distinctly different symptoms than Ich (Cryptocaryon). Fishes with Velvet will generally fail to feed, exhibit rapid respiration, cloudy-looking fins, and sort of "hang" in the tank, facing current. It's quite easy to distinguish the two...Velvet is far, far more lethal, and time is critical when executing treatment. Both are quite contagious>
- After adding the CopperSafe, when should I expect the white dots to disappear?
<Hard to say, but you'll usually see a radical difference within 48 hours. However, you need to keep copper in the water for about two weeks to really affect a cure>
- Finally, could you please tell me what is the right concentration of the copper so it would be effective in marine bare-bottom tank, against Crypt (Ich) and marine velvet? Everywhere I read is seems to say different... :-( Are there different concentrations for chelated copper and ionic one? Is ppm same as mg/L ?
<Well, Coppersafe is recommended at a concentration of 1.5ppm to 2.0ppm, and Cupramine is recommended at a dosage of 0.5ppm (1ml per 10 gallons). Follow manufacturer's instructions TO THE LETTER when using ANY copper product. Don't "guestimate" or "wing it"...accuracy and testing are vital. To answer your second question- a part per million is equal to a milligram per liter. Just like it sounds, a "part per million" is one part in a million parts of something. One milligram per liter is the same as one part per million when the reference volume is water...>
- How stable is the chelated copper sulfate? I mean after 4 weeks, will the concentration of the copper sulfate (chelated) still be the same as the first day (with skimmer)?
<Well, that's why you need to test constantly when using copper. After every water change, it may be necessary to replenish the copper to keep the level constant, and at the correct therapeutic level. These products are quite stable, if used as directed>
- And the last question... I've heard that formaldehyde/malachite green combo is very effective against Clownfish disease... if one would add this combo to a tank with chelated copper, will formaldehyde/malachite green in any way deactivate or convert chelated copper ?
<I do not know of any interactions between these two substances, but my thinking is that you don't want to mix different meds together. Since copper may not be as effective against Brooklynella as Formalin/Malachite Green, and can actually be damaging to some fish- why use it at all if it is not required>
Huge thanks as always, Luke
<A pleasure, Luke! Good luck in your efforts. Do make use of the many resources on WWM to get more information on these topics. Regards, Scott F>

He's Into Heavy Metal...(Copper Use)
I'm about to start a "Cupramine" Copper treatment. The directions call for a 14 day treatment. Is this the maximum fish should stay in a copper-treated tank?
<Well, I would avoid exposures much longer than 2 weeks, particularly with fishes such as tangs, which can suffer damage to their digestive fauna after long-term exposure>
Can I be absolutely sure the parasites will be gone in 14 days if I siphon the bottom of the tank often?
<Unfortunately, with ich, there are no 100% certainties...I'd say that with a combination of proper copper treatment and siphoning, the odds are certainly in your favor>
I was just wondering if I could dose longer because the display tank has to remain fishless for a month and a half anyway. Also the directions state to leave a concentration of 0.5 mg L. Is this the same as 0.5 ppm, which is the unit of measurement on my Salifert test kit. As always thanks for you help. Angelo
<Angelo, I'd follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter when using copper (or any medication, for that matter)...Use the remaining "post-treatment" time to "fatten up" and condition the fishes before their re-introduction. If it's not necessary to continue the treatment after two weeks, I would not subject the fishes to additional stress...Hang in there! You're doing fine! Regards, Scott F>

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist... Copper/test kit use... SW livestk sel. – 03/09/07
Mr. Fenner,
<Patrick... sorry this has taken a while to respond to... We have something artifactually wrong with our webmail server... and a bunch of incoming (mostly from Apple products) comes in "trayless"... which a few of us here can re-route (through their Apple products)... so's others can respond...>
 First off, my name is Patrick Myer and I have been keeping marine aquaria off and on since 1986. I recently purchased and completed reading your book “The Conscientious Marine Aquarist” and I just wanted to be the latest to tell you what a fantastic work it is.
While geared for the new aquarist to beginning reefer, I have taken a great deal of tips from the book and wish that there was that kind of literature available when I started. I have had to learn so much of my info thru trial and (lots of) error and could have definitely avoided many of them if I’d read your book first. I also read your article a few months back in FAMA about Emperor Angels (Pomacanthus imperator) and enjoyed it as well. I currently have a 4-5 inch specimen that I have a definite kinship with. I’ve had her (I just decided to label it a she) for nearly a year now and she is doing superb. She sure does like to “investigate” things as though she were a toddler. Again, many thanks for your book and your website.
You are an absolute, top-notch asset to the hobby and this rock we live on. It would be a pleasure to meet you one day.
<Thank you for your kind, encouraging words>
 I live in Virginia Beach , VA where I serve as a Lieutenant in the Navy, and while there are some great folks here that do try in earnest to do the right things, every system in this town is so infected with Cryptocaryon irritans that I have to copper treat everything.
<Yikes!>
I had a couple losses trying to dose copper effectively until I found a brand and test kit that matched and worked effectively. I realized and read that there could be some problems with that, but boy did I find out how bad it can be. I was using SeaCure with a Salifert test kit and the test kit said I had no detectable copper, but when my tang started having seizures, I bought a Red Sea test kit and it read 0.3 ppm!! I would like to be able to find specimens that can QT and NOT have to always copper treat since it is not a benign drug (as you certainly know).
<Ah, yes>
Can you point me in the direction of some online places that sell good stuff where I might be able to have a chance at not medicating my specimens?
<My faves are the Marine Center and Dr.s Foster & Smith... they seem to have the better suppliers, staff, consistent treatment of livestock... No one can be perfect in the regard to preventing the passing of impaired livestock, but these outfits, as etailers come closest... And I would like to add there are some excellent retailers as well (e.g. AquaTouch in Phoenix), that also "do their duty" in providing adequate quarantine, careful purchasing...>
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really want to be a conscientious aquarist.
Sincerely,
Patrick Myer
<Thank you for writing, sharing Patrick. Would you please send along the names... copper brand and test kit, that you found useful? Was it the AS SeaCure (copper sulfate) and Red Sea kit? Bob Fenner>

Copper Treatment 2/19/07
Dear Mr. Fenner/James
<Akila>
I purchased a 3” Auriga Butterfly from the LFS yesterday and it’s in my 20G QT now. I have dropped my Gravity to 1.015. Is this gravity suitable to treat the Auriga? The butterfly has not shown any ill effects up to now (tap on wood) but I have not fed him yet.
<Personally, I wouldn't go much below 1.018.>
I also want to treat this QT with chelated copper. This is the only type of copper available at the store. Do you think chelated copper is effective???
<Is effective but not easy to control. The dosage rate is usually related to tank volume, and if this volume is misjudged, the treatment can be ineffective or dangerously high.
As for butterflies, they have a heightened sensitivity to copper, and long-term use can suppress their immune system making the fish more susceptible to other pathogens, kind of like throwing gas on the fire. Anyway, I like to use non-chelated copper. It generally has a half life of about 12 hours, so if the dose was slightly high, it would lower in a short time. When using non-chelated, it is very important to monitor the level at least twice a day to insure an effective treatment level. As for butterflies, I'd start with a half dose. If it were me, I'd order non-chelated copper from your nearest
etailer and overnight it. Shouldn't cost that much shipping-wise for a small item like that.>
My test kit says it measures Cu+2 what does this +2 mean? The range they have mentioned is 0.25 mg/l to 2.5 mg/l. What is the correct concentration I have to use to treat the QT fish???
<Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cu2+ is the chelated form. <<Mmm, no... there is another molecule tied/liganded to this. Copper sulfate (pentahydrate before dissolution in water... sometimes with addition of citric acid, other solubilizers... CuSO4, is a common formulation... this "breaks down" in basic (high pH) solutions... to yield the cupric ion (Cu++). RMF>> Cu+ would be the non-chelated which also forms a blue, blue/green coloration when mixed with a small amount of water. So, based on your info, your test kit is measuring chelated copper. <<Mmm... well... chelated copper "breaks down" to be the same ionic copper (Cu++)... over time... per design... neither looks blue unless in high concentration. RMF>> As for dosing, chelated would be 0.2ppm and ionic, 0.15-0.20 ppm. When using chelated, and treating by water volume, these levels will generally exceed 0.20ppm.>
One last thing, how many times during this 2-week period should I change water and what percentage should I change. FYI I use natural seawater so should I do it frequently?
<I wouldn't do this unless ammonia is detected. You must also monitor this during treatment. Two-week period? Treatment should last at least 21 days to ensure the kill of hatching (hatching doesn't sound right??) cysts, as copper is ineffective to them until then. Do use any chemical filtration during treatment, as it will absorb the copper from the water.>
Hope to hear from you guys soon and thanks in advance for any advice.
<You're welcome, James (Salty Dog)>
Take care,
Best regards,
Akila

Re-infestation of Marine Ich 5/24/06
Hello crew,
<Laurie>
Your website has been invaluable to me, being a new marine aquarist. I wish I had discovered it before experiencing a 100% fish loss due to Marine Ich about two months ago. Shortly after the outbreak, all fish were removed from the display tank (110 gallon - fish, live rock and sand, and inverts with the goal of eventually adding corals once lighting and filtration is upgraded). Unfortunately, I learned that we removed them much too late and they were inadequately treated (no fresh water / methylene blue dip), hence the loss. The display tank was left fish-free for only six weeks. I am now reading that three to four months would have been safer.
<Mmm, yes... though six weeks will "do it" for most circumstances>
 I'm afraid this is proving true, as two new fish that were added last week are now showing signs of Ich.
<Rats! You did quarantine these?>
We have a small 10 gallon QT set up, but that won't be large enough to house all of our fish (~55 inches total - 16 fish,
<!>
all peaceful / community). I think I can quickly set up our empty 29 gallon using some of the biological filter media from the 10 gallon QT. (That is currently housing a blue-velvet damsel to keep the system cycling. He is moved to a refugium that hangs in the display tank when we use the 10 gallon QT for quarantining.)
My concern is that I have a large (5") algae blenny and a small diamond watchman goby that I'm afraid will not survive in either QT (neither one has / will have any algae growth, and of course, there will not be any sand substrate). We lost our original blenny during the first Ich quarantine - but I think due to starvation rather than Ich.
<Very common>
 The goby eats when I feed, but he's very busy sand-sifting all day long. I'm not sure that he'll adjust to the QT with a glass bottom.
<If in good health to start with...>
If I take a chance and leave blenny and goby in the display tank with the invertebrates, and they survive for the three to four month time period without showing symptoms, can I assume that the Ich parasites are gone?
<Uh, no... Definitely not. All fish can act as "space" or reservoir hosts... all need to be removed>
I do have several cleaner shrimps (one skunk, three peppermints, one scarlet). The skunk cleans the blenny often, but the goby is afraid of it.
If they do survive, and the rest of my gang survives living in the 29 gallon for three to four months, will it ever be safe to add them back to the display tank?
<... All need to be removed, treated>
Your expertise and advice is much appreciated.
With sincere thanks,
Laurie Ostrander
<Do take a re-read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the many files linked above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Re-infestation of Marine Ich, Copper(Safe) use 6/1/06
Hi Bob and Crew,
<Laurie>
Help! I need your advice again!
It's been a week since our first correspondence and here's what's been done and is going on:
* All fish caught, dipped and moved to 29 gallon hospital tank on May 24 (we were up until 1 a.m.!)
* Scott's Fairy Wrasse didn't do too well, but survived (he had spots before dipping). He seems to have recovered and is now eating and breathing very well. He had a few spots left; those are now gone, so the parasite is now in its second stage?
<Possibly... you did treat this tank? With?>
* Bristletooth Tomini Tang died the next afternoon (he had spots before dipping and was breathing with difficulty)
* Goby jumped out of the tank three times; I was there to rescue him the first two times, but not the last time :^( He died on May 29.
* I'm using CopperSafe. It states that copper test should show 1.5 - 2.0 ppm. I've found that I need to add more than the dosage documented in the instructions to get up to this level. I'm using SeaChem test kit.
<Yes and good>
* Water is disgustingly cloudy. I did 1/3 water change two nights ago, with no improvement (and added the appropriate amount of copper and tested to be sure).
(Tank is running with an AquaClear 70 (sans carbon) and two powerheads - water should be moving at around 700 gph.)
* Blenny is doing OK. Thankfully, he is eating Seaweed Selects.
* Remaining fish are doing well (Banggai and Pajama Cardinalfish and Yellow Candy Hogfish)
<And... you are testing for ammonia, nitrite?>
Here's where I need some advice. CopperSafe states to treat for 5 - 30 days. Article says start reducing copper after 2 weeks. I don't really understand the article, as I read that parasites take 5 - 28 days before swimming to find a host. As the copper levels are reduced, will it still be an effective parasite killer?
<Mmm, no... needs to be kept at a therapeutic dosage/concentration for the duration of treatment>
I thought not, which is why it's important to keep the correct level of copper??
<Yes>
So, if these were your fish, would you treat full-strength for 30 days, or start reducing after 2 weeks?
<Keep at full-strength>
If reducing, would you reduce via water changes only, or by adding carbon back to the filter?
<Likely just time going by and water changes...>
Thank you. I really appreciate your help.
Regards,
Laurie O.
<Bob Fenner>

Re: Re-infestation of Marine Ich 5/25/06
Thank you Bob.
<Welcome>
This is an interesting line in the article you highlighted for me:
"Once in a system, the system itself is infested and the only practical means of control becomes providing an optimized and stable environment."
<One point of view>
This sentence is both discouraging and hopeful.
With all the live rock (100 lbs.) and live sand (160 lbs.) in the system, I'm afraid that the parasites will be there forever.
<Possibly>
However, I've already started the process of upgrading my filtration system, so I am hopeful that once I get this current set of fish treated and cured, that the environment in my display tank will be as close to ideal as it can get.
Again, thank you.
Regards,
Laurie Ostrander
<Again, welcome. BobF>

Complications arising from treatment for Ich on a Acanthurus achilles 9/1/06
Hi Bob,
<Matt>
Firstly thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply.
About seven weeks ago I purchased an Achilles tang after years of wanting one I finally felt I had the system capable of supporting one.
He initially went into my refugium for a month and proceeded to do very well with no signs of ill health and eating voraciously, after being introduced into the display he showed a few spots for about 10 days before he worsened considerably.
I made the decision to remove him to Hypo at that point. I lowered him to what I thought was 1.009 however later discovered it to be 1.012 due to a faulty hydrometer. Whilst in hypo he degraded into the worst case of Ich I have ever seen. The fish was totally listless and unable to move effectively. I was concerned that I may have a strain resistant to Hypo so decided to administer a half dose of Cupramine.
Within three days all signs of Ich had abated, and with the specific gravity being maintained at 1.010 I decided to replace the carbon and remove the Cupramine. Now five days later the Ich has not returned, respiratory rate is normal.
<Good>
My problem is the fish is still very listless, unable to control his orientation and is not eating.
<Not too surprising>
Could I have somehow poisoned him with Cupramine or would a massive Ich infection cause enough electrolyte imbalance to cause these ongoing symptoms?
<Perhaps a bit of both>
I am at a loss, I don't know whether to slowly raise the salinity once more in the hope that may help or whether to wait it out.

It has been about a week now since he last ate and I am concerned that he will become to weak to recover.
<Me too>
Thank you in advance for your reply
Matt
<Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner>

Oh Dear, Now ICH?!?!?! Defiantly Dipping with Methylene Blue - 10/17/05
Hey Bob, Travis, Steve, and everyone else!
<<Hello, Travis here.>>
Once again let me express how grateful I am for your help. It means a lot. I seem to be a little unlucky so far in the Marine Tank experience. My clown who has internal parasites has apparently now developed Ich.
<<You may need to stop internal parasite medication and do a large water change to attack the ich. Unfortunately your clown is not eating which makes this a harder situation. That will have to be a call you make on your own.>>
Great. Now, the real trouble, is that his mate back in the tank, has Ich too!
<<Not good.>>
So, now,,, I can see the spots on his dorsal fin and around his head. How far along am I now with Ich. Will my Chromis get it?
<<Ich is a nasty critter, but fish can fight it off if they are in good health. Many fish have ich, but they exist in a delicate balance with the parasite. Ich usually rears its head when something is stressing the fish.>>
I have about 10 pounds of rock, is that contaminated now?
<<The short answer is no. Ich makes cysts and the cyst will be in your rock, but running the tank fallow will allow them to hatch and die.>>
I read through your entire ICH section on WWM but cant seem to target it exactly to this situation. I have a 29gal tank. My Chromis does not show any signs of Ich but I think he might get it. I have inverts in the tank so how do I make sure that the tank is rid of the parasite, will letting it run fallow work?
<<To clear your display tank, you will need to let it run fallow for 6-8 weeks. Use that time to think about why QTing is extremely important.>>
What do I do with the infected fish?
<<Infected (All) fish should be treated with a chelated copper solution. Cupramine would be my suggestion. I would also suggest raising the temp in the QT a few degrees (83-84 degrees, but add an airstone as this and the copper will remove oxygen) and lowering the salinity slowly(1.015). Do not go to true hyposalinity unless you have treated fish, in this manner, before as mixing hyposalinity and copper is a very delicate situation.>>
I take it I need to perform formalin dips now but I defiantly will be dipping with Meth Blue from now on along with quarantine.
<<Use Cupramine for ich and formalin for brook. Dip when appropriate.>>
I made the stupid mistake of thinking that because my fish was tank raised he would be ok.
<<You have to remember what systems they were in between the breeder and your home display. Wholesale and fish store systems all house wild and captive bred fish. This means every fish is exposed to what the wild ones bring with them.>>
I hate being a novice.
<<We all start somewhere and many of us wish we could start over...>>
Any help is always appreciated.
Thanks! -Jon
<<TravisM>>

Red Sea Fishes... crypt, copper use
Hi,
<Hello>
Over the past two years I have successfully quarantined around 10 fish. None of them came down with anything and they are all fine and dandy in my 400 gallon tank. Then, I purchased a Green bird wrasse and lipstick tang from the Red Sea.
<Okay>
They came down with white spot so I used Cuprazin, a chelated copper treatment. The white spot went away and came back 3 times. The 3rd time they were completely covered, started to go lopsided and died within 6 hours.
<Successive reproduction of the parasite, weakening of hosts... hyperinfection. Did you use a copper (chelated variety) test kit? You did not maintain a physiological dose of cupric ion>
 My 50 gallon quarantine tank was properly set up with filter material from my main sump. So, ammonia was 0, nitrite 0, kH 10, ph 8.4.
Everything ok. And they were eating and swimming well until 3rd hit of whitespot. Nightmare. So, 6 months later a Red Sea Asfur Angel catches my eye, so I buy him. Again he gets white spot minutes after going into quarantine,
<Mmm, you do understand your actual system has the Cryptocaryon? It will be there, ready to infest any/all, but mostly new fishes... until eradicated>
same pattern, 3 rd time he's covered and dies the same way after 6 hours. I'm so upset. Is the Cuprazin a rubbish product or is there something more deadly with the red sea whitespot? After the 2nd hit he was so well so I presumed he was better. This has really put me of buying anymore fish for a long time.
Kind Regards,
James.
<James, you apparently have a generally thorough understanding of marine aquarium keeping, but an incomplete one re marine ich... Do yourself and giant favor and read over the archived materials on WWM re marine parasitic disease en toto, Cryptocaryon... and the use of copper compounds. Bob Fenner>

Help me Save my Coral Beauty
Hi guys...
<Ceri>
Well I just bought a Coral Beauty Angel, he looked OK in the LFS but the next day after bringing him home he developed white patches on the fins and I am starting to see small white specs on him.
<Man, this is the year for parasitic troubles!>
Not many just a few. So, I read, read, and read some more on your site. This is what I have done. Good news, I put him directly in a QT tank. I have raised temperature to 80 and lower salinity for hyposalinity conditions. I have also ordered some Methylene Blue and CopperSafe.
<Good moves>
So, here are the questions. How many times do I perform the fresh water dip with Methylene Blue? Only once?
<Once (on the way into QT) is best>
Once a day? Leave him there for 3-5 minutes?
<About right...>
How do I know if this stresses the fish?
<Observation... that the fish isn't laying over "too much", breathing "too hard"...>
Also, won't putting him back into the affected water re-start the ich?
<Bingo, yes... the reason the dip/bath is best performed en route...>
Should I start the copper treatment as soon as he is returned to tank?
<ASAP>
If he looks better I understand I need to stop the copper treatment through water changes.
<Actually, no... you need to keep a physiological dose of free/cupric ion present for the two week treatment period... you may well not see the "ich itself"...>
I then want to bring water to the same conditions as my main tank. I am worried that lowering the temperature will bring Ich back, is that possible?
<Not if it is not present...>
Please advise, I want to save this guy. So far, he still looks good, but not eating as well today. Poor thing has no algae to eat in the QT, hope this is OK. I have never done a fresh water dip before, I am probably more stressed than the fish!
Thanks...Ceri.
<Likely... these baths are not of themselves that much strain on the fish... the netting is far worse... Bob Fenner><<Wish I would have emphasized that once the Cryptocaryon was off the hosts, it would not "magically" reappear like freshwater (Ichthyophthiriasis) ich. RMF>>

Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty
Thanks Bob, really appreciate your help. Since catching this guy will be stressful...and I would have to put him back into the same QT, should I skip the dip and go for the copper only?
<Yes, I would. Thanks for the clarification>
(yes lessoned learned, will dip all new first FIRST) Copper hasn't arrived yet, I will start as soon as it does. Do I keep the water at hyposalinity during the copper, or can I bring it back to normal?
Thanks...Ceri
<Can leave low if the fishes being treated are not "too" stressed already... a balance my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty, ich
Great, thanks Bob. I will slowly bring water conditions back up to normal. I don't want to fight monitoring copper and hyposalinity tank at the same time. My QT has live rock and substrate it in (thanks to LFS who suckered me into it). I will remove before starting copper treatment as I understand it makes an accurate reading difficult
<Actually will quickly absorb the copper>
(from the FAQs on your site !!) and will ease in removal of these nasty bugs !!
Thanks for the support. Ceri.
<You're welcome my friend. Steady on. Bob Fenner>

Coral Beauty/Copper - Follow-up
Hi guys...well I am sad to say my Coral Beauty has taken a turn for the worse. I started copper and now he looks TERRIBLE. Appears as if there are no white specs on him, but there is a large white fuzzy patch, that is growing, right next to his, well, butt. Nitrite and Ammonia levels have spiked through the roof. I did a 20% water change Fri, 50% water change yesterday, and 50% water change today and levels are still high. I have decided to stop the copper and just focus on getting the water to normal. I added PolyFilter...
<Good>
... and added a new filter cartridge in the Emperor 280. Question is, what happened to this poor fish? Does copper kill the bacterial function of the filter?
<Yes, especially at the .25 level I see below>
I am desperate and just don't know what is wrong with him, or how to help. Please advise. The directions on the bottle are not clear, and the copper test kit always read over .25 of copper in the tank, even after water changes.
<Copper is an effective method of killing diseases if used properly and with care. For angels, the copper level shouldn't exceed .15, .25 is dangerous. Are you using an ionic copper or chelated, or which brand/type are you using?>
Was the treatment done in quarantine in a rock/substrate free tank? Also, since I was reading your site last night, I have a question for my main 65 gal tank. I have 75 lbs live rock, Fluval 404 with carbon and bio-material, Emperor 400 bio-wheel, and a Prism skimmer. Should remove the bio-filter material from the Fluval 404? Is this adding nitrates?

Also the Fluval is adding tons of tiny bubbles in the tank, I was thinking of replacing it with a Eheim Wet/Dry canister filter. Is this a good choice?
<There are better ways for less $. Even though the Prizm is rated for a tank your size, it is not that efficient to handle it. I use one myself on my 29 mini reef. Just great for that.>
If it is, I should not use the bio- material for that as well since I have live rock - right?
< If it were me, I would seriously think about adding a hang-on refugium with a live sand base and add some Caulerpa. This will help control the nitrates and nuisance algae. You will need to buy a small PC fixture to place over the refugium. CPR is coming out with their hang-on that includes a built-in skimmer. This would add to the skimming efficiency of your system.>
Question 3 - sorry - full of uncertainty today. I will do a freshwater dip with Meth. Blue for each new fish from now on BUT - the directions say to leave the fish only in the dip 10 seconds. I have read that the fish should be there 3 to 5 MINUTES. Which one is correct? And to be safe, it is good to dip when moving from the QT to the main tank just as an extra precaution? What is the correct concentration of blue to use?
<I'd follow info on the bottle. Here is a link on disease prevention that has info on FW dipping. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm. James (Salty Dog)>

Coral Beauty/Copper Follow-up, Doesn't Look Good..
Thanks for quick reply. Sorry to say, Coral Beauty basically dead. On it's side breathing very hard, I added water, and some of the bio-material from my main tank to QT tank, but afraid it is too late. Yes the QT is rock and substrate free (well there is a teeny bit on the bottom since I removed existing substrate before treatment.) I used 7ml of CopperSafe for 10 gal tank, per directions. I feel terrible, I just killed this innocent fish. I really want to be sure this does not happen again. Directions said to leave in the copper filter, was that a good idea?
<Ceri, usually when a fish gets that bad, copper will just finish it off. It' very important to treat right at the onset of the disease. If the directions say to leave the carbon in place, then that's what I'd do. Sorry. James (Salty Dog)>

Re: Urgent!!!!! ich again
Hi Craig,
How are you? You're probably sick and tired of me bugging you with numerous questions.
<Hi Jun, I'm fine! Nope, you can write anytime!>
My second purple tang has ich (sounds familiar?). I know tangs are ich magnet but can't help myself. I just love them. The purple tang was QT'd for 3 weeks before I introduce him in my main tank. 5 days later, he's got ich. I finally got him out last Tuesday night and into my hospital tank (20 gal). I added 2 ml of Cupramine (did not do FW dip because he is already covered with ich and I am afraid that he wont survive the dip) and 2 days later I added another 2 ml of Cupramine. I used a Salifert copper test and I got 0 copper reading. I called SeaChem and they told me that 4 ml of Cupramine will give a reading of .5 ppm (recommended therapeutic level). I ordered a SeaChem copper test from marine depot and got the test today. Run the test right away (this time using SeaChem copper test) and the copper level/reading is still 0 ppm in my QT.
My question is should I dose my QT with 2 ml of Cupramine again. The tang's condition has significantly improved from Tuesday (1/14/03). He still has a few white spots left, maybe 4 or 5, on it's body and dorsal fin. He started eating again yesterday and appears to be in no distress. The product says that I have to keep the copper level at .5 ppm for 14 days for it to be effective. I'm afraid that the parasite is just dormant right now and that they may develop immunity to copper and infest my tang again in a few days. Please help. No carbon in my canister, using cycle and Amquel for ammonia spike (hospital tank not fully cycled).
Thanks again... Jun
<Administer the copper as shown needed by the test kit and maintain it at the level on the Cupramine label. The ick won't develop an immunity to copper. I usually test once in the AM and once in the PM for proper copper level. Make sure you don't have anything that will react with the copper like LR or sand. Everything should be inert (plastic, glass, etc) Keep him in the copper for the two weeks, two weeks more W/O, and hold your tank fallow for as long as you can stand it. I would also start feeding him medicated food before you put him back in the main, so he will be eating it steadily at the time of stress and possible reinfestation. Follow the label and feed it for two weeks. The remaining ick in your main will not have a viable host (that isn't medicated) so they will die. I did this and had a few spots after two months of QT! The medicated food did them in (all my fish love the stuff for some reason) and I haven't had so much as a minor spot in over a year. (knocking on wood as I type). I'm a big fan of copper and Metronidazole (Flagyl) for ick. This should do the trick. I just keep the food handy in case of minor outbreak. Good luck! Craig>

Re: Urgent!!!!! ich again
No carbon in my canister, using cycle and Amquel for ammonia spike (hospital tank not fully cycled).
Thanks again...Jun
<One more thing Jun, read the Amquel label and make sure it doesn't sequester copper as well as ammonia and nitrates.
It may affect your copper levels. If so, use main tank water for changes making sure you keep copper at the recommended level.
Best of luck! Craig>

Heavy (copper) metal
Craig,
The Amquel level mentioned heavy metal not copper. Is copper consider a heavy metal? I hope this question is not too dumb.
Jun
<Not a dumb question at all! If it can sequester heavy metals, it can sequester some or all of your copper. Try to stick to water changes to keep the wastes under control. You might run a filter on your main for a few weeks before your next introduction so you have a good bio-filter for your QT. Good luck! Craig>

Yuck! It's Ich!
I have a 36 gallon saltwater tank that's been set up for about 2 months now. I have about 10 lb.s of live rock, Coral beauty, mandarin, yellow tail Damsel, maroon clown, orange percula clown, cleaner shrimp, emerald crab, red crab, Sebae anemone, two hermit crabs and some snails.
They all seemed to be doing great until one day I found the percula clown loaded with white ick. So I did a 20% water change and added cycle tank to the requirements for my tank and I also added some vitamins. All the levels are low. Salt level is 1.022, temp is 80 degrees.
<Good that you did a check of all tank parameters. Stability is very important in maintaining a healthy aquarium>
It seemed to do good for about one day. Then the ick came back, but this time the Coral Beauty, percula clown and the mandarin all have ick. I tried dip baths. That doesn't seem to be helping at all. Now I'm afraid I'm going to lose them all.
What should I do? Please Help! Lori
<Ok, Lori- here's my advice: First, since the ich parasites are in the tank, all of the fishes are at risk. So, what you need to do is remove all of the fishes to a separate aquarium (10 gallons is fine) for treatment with an aquarium remedy containing copper sulphate, such as CopperSafe or Cupramine. Follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding dosage and duration of treatment. See the wetwebmedia.com FAQs on ich for more information. DO NOT TREAT IN THE MAIN TANK! Meanwhile, the main tank needs to sit "fallow" without fishes, for at least one month. By not having any fishes to serve as hosts, the parasite population will "crash", resulting in a diminished population which most healthy fishes should be able to withstand. Conduct regular water changes and other maintenance in the aquarium, even though there will be no fishes in it during this time. Once your fishes are cured, you can return them to their aquarium. Remember, quarantine all new animal purchases for at least 3-4 weeks before placing them in your main tank. This will give you a chance to ascertain their health, get them eating, and intervene as necessary if diseases appear. And, of course, it will help keep disease out of your main tank. I predict that you will embrace this practice after going through this ich battle! It's not fun, but it does work! Don't be discouraged, be patient and see the treatment through! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Medication Question
Hi Bob! I have got an Ich problem in my 90 gallon FO tank despite 3 weeks of quarantine. I noticed it in on the new Hippo tang I introduced about 3 weeks ago. At that time I had already purchased two butterfly fish who were occupying my 15 gallon quarantine tank. On my LFS advice I treated my main tank with CopperSafe to make sure that the disease does not spread to other healthy fish. The Ich on the tang cleared up within 3 days but it would continually scratch itself on the rocks. LFS advised Formalin treatment. I went through that and treated the tank alternate days for five days. The tang is still scratching every now and then! Water parameters are OK and other fish are comfortable too. Since I need to keep the copper in the tank for at least 1 month (2 weeks have passed), can I use any other medication like Tetra's MarinOomed along with CopperSafe? If not, what are my options since the quarantine tank is already occupied with these butterfly fish who are finicky eaters. I fear I will have even more problem feeding them with the tang since it eats like a pig. Appreciate your advice.
Regards, Sandeep
<Hi Sandeep, I would not treat the main tank with anything more. Remove the Tang to the QT with the Butterflies or to another QT and treat with nothing but 0.25 ppm free copper, testing twice daily. It is likely all these medications have affected your biofiltration and you should be testing your main display for ammonia, nitrites, etc. I would go to the quarantine section of WetWebMedia.com and stop listening to your LFS regarding treating ick. If you can only use one QT, then get some plastic plants and a few pieces of PVC pipe for the fish to hide out in. I wouldn't worry about the butterflies too much unless they really won't eat.
Your main tank will need to be fallow for at least a month. Be patient with the copper, your fish will stop flashing. Best of luck! Craig>

Ich, copper, and frustration
Dear Mr. Fenner,
I am an avid reader of your books and FAQS, and yet have never had the need to ask you a direct question, as most of the time I get a response from your previous answers.
<Am glad you find such records useful.>
Nevertheless right now I am having a problem with my 90 gallon fish only tank. For about 2 years I had it stocked only with a Naso Tang, a small jeweled eel, a leopard snake eel and a big eye Popeye (squirrel). I have a modified Seaclone and just two weeks ago bought a Sanders 50 ozonizer. Everything was going great until I decided to add a lovable but ich-magnet spotted puffer. I don't have a QT tank, but at least I dipped him before putting into my tank. Sure enough after a couple of days, ich started to appear on the puffer, and then the Naso showed some scratchy symptoms. I added Coppersafe as per the instructions, and removed all carbon, stopped skimming and ozonizng. Also, I have FW dipped all the fish 4 times in 6 days. All the fish seem to be doing better, except for the Naso who it seems to me doesn't handle the dips too well (always gets discolored and lethargic after them).
Today I noticed that the Naso had an apparently inflamed eye (copper poisoning?)
<Possibly... and/or (more likely) irritation from being netted for dipping>
and don't know if I should re-install the carbon and turn on the ozone and skimmer.
<Leave the copper treatment for a good two weeks... the ich is in a collective resting stage... will come back if you truncate the period. Also, you don't mention lowering spg, elevating temperature as part of your treatment protocol... and I do hope/trust you are using test kits for free cupric ion... it's strange your eels aren't exhibiting odd behavior if you have therapeutic copper levels>
I do not see much ich on the fish, but I am afraid that the dips and copper might do the Naso in. I have been using copper for 5 days, but cannot test it as my copper test is for copper sulfate and does not seem to register the Coppersafe chelated type.
<Ahhh, there are chelated-copper type test kits>
Since I live in Costa Rica, there really isn't too many places from where to buy supplies and so I would have to order them on-line and the proper kit would not get in time.
<There are a couple of shops in San Jose you might check>
What do you suggest? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Kind regards, Harold Chamberlain
<Other than the above... of course quarantine of incoming livestock... Bob Fenner>

Copper/Ich
Hey guys, I'm medicating a hospital bare bottom, no rock/sand, only PVC) tank with copper (Cupramine) and have it at the therapeutic level of 0.45 (it's asking for 0.5, but its fairly close and I believe copper is active at 0.15-0.20 in fighting ich). Anyhow, I know it only works on the free swimming stage, but is it normal after sticking a fish with spots (not quite fully infested) in there for 2 days, for the fish to actually get worse lots of white spots) on the 2nd/3rd day ? Is this just from already infected parasites in the fish just coming to the surface ?
<Yes, very likely. The "spots" are actually mucus and damage on the fish's dermis...>
I saw a fish in copper solution go from just a few spots to like covered (didn't make it) in 2 days. I thought it was my copper levels, but they were checked 3 times by 3 different sources myself and 2 stores) and they all checked in from 0.3 to 0.5, so I know the copper is in solution. If this is normal, then I'll just have to wait it out. Thanks, Jim
<Yes... lessons in "reality"... by the time "ich" (et al. dis-ease conditions) are "registered", there are still "events to go". In action, watch the timing, "Bob".>

Ich and Now Oodinium
Hi Steven/Bob,
I have a fish only with live rock,75G have been having problems with my first ich outbreak since I was a teenager. The trigger and Sailfin tang started with just plain ole ich. I started treating with kick ich, because I didn't want to harm the live rock. My Miniatus is very resistant, is still fairly healthy. The trigger has some ich and maybe slight Oodinium, still fairly healthy. Now the Tang has full blown Oodinium, I removed most of my live rock to another tank and started treating with Mardel CopperSafe chelated. The tang is in dire straights as of right now, but still eats and is totally coated in Oodinium, rapid breathing. I did freshwater dip him today to hopefully keep his gills somewhat clear so he doesn't suffocate, does this help with that?
<Yes, but will not effect a cure with the animal being replaced in the infested system.>
Or are the cysts protected in the gills too?
<Yes, please read through the marine parasitic disease sections posted on WetWebMedia.com>
Anyways I just wanted to say to readers out there forget the new treatments if you want to save your fish.
<Agreed... most are shameful shams... replete with misleading advertising/promotion>
Use copper if you have a fish only or fish only with live rock, remove the live rock to another tank. Or if you have a large enough quarantine tank, which I do not, especially for my 7 inch Miniatus, go that route. You may not be able to return the live rock back into the tank, if you do what I'm doing, but at least if you really have had your fish for years like I have and you love them you will give them a fighting chance before they pass their tolerance threshold. And coral skeletons replicas ain't so bad anyways for aquascaping for a fish only. I attribute my Sailfin Tang's Oodinium outbreak to my late decision of deciding to use copper. Because I was busy fiddling with less effective treatments, kick ich, rally, my Sailfin may die in a few days. Hopefully he will make it though. And why does everybody say copper harms biological filtration when the manufacturer directions for CopperSafe chelated explicitly says it does not effect biological filtration?
<Generally not>
Are they lying or what? Will I ever be able to add live rock to this tank again?
<Yes, assuredly. The residual and re-released copper can be safely removed via chemical filtrants>
It has no substrate by the way, just some Tufa left in there. Filtration is lifeguard fluidized, Fluval 204, AquaClear 500 and Berlin skimmer, plus 50lbs of live rock which is no longer in there. There is the Aquariums Systems copper remover product, which claims to remove chelated and free copper very efficiently with no leaching which I plan to use after treatment and PolyFilters, activated carbon and water changes. Will it be safe to add some live rock again after a few months?
<Yes>
PS Running my Berlin skimmer will not reduce the copper, right?
<Skimming does remove copper compounds>
Just checking. Other than the tougher groupers, triggers, damsels and some of the fish that are now being tank raised, I'm beginning to feel that not many other fish types should be available in this hobby anymore. I read through these posts about these fish suffering and dying over and over again. Personally I feel most of the fish that are offered out there are not good aquarium subjects and I feel bad that I heard almost 50% of fish shipped die from the shipping stress alone.
<This stated value is too high. Likely less than 10% is close>
I personally feel that in the future, I may work toward having certain species of saltwater fish in the trade banned from import with large fines involved. Moorish Idols, Regal angels, other angels, tons of misc. butterflies, mandarin fish, wild caught seahorses, orange spotted filefish, the list goes on and on. These sensitive species shouldn't be caught or sold anymore, except for maybe scientific reasons. Freshwater is a different story though, most species tend to be extremely resilient for the average educated hobbyist, but I'm sure a lot of species of them shouldn't be in the trade either. Thanks for listening and thanks for any info, Dennis
<Thank you for your valuable input. Sorry for the delay in response. Been out of the country for a while. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich/velvet and stuff like that.
Hi Bob,
I have some questions. Since I am treating my 55 g tank with CopperSafe (removed all inverts/corals to a 20g QT) would a water conditioner/detoxifier affect the copper?
<Could, yes>
I had to use filtered water but not RO which I usually use, therefore I added some Tetra water conditioner to the water and mixed it with Instant
Ocean salt.
<No worries here.>
Then added some of it to the 55 g tank (tank was low after I moved most rock/inverts/corals). Then I added CopperSafe per the directions.
This morning the fish left in the tank yellow tang/blue damsel) are both ok (blue damsel is not scratching anymore). Did I reduce the effect of copper by doing that?
<Only way to tell... and there are a few other "things" that will/do remove the copper... is to test... at least once daily... and re-treat.>
I just want to make sure no parasites are left behind planning to leave the copper in for 2 weeks).
<Is there something about reading that bothers you? I would read through reference works, at least the WWM site... instead of patch working your understanding of how to be an aquarist "after the fact" by asking questions about what you've done...>
Btw, I've tried to get an opinion from another LFS on treating ich etc..
<Ahh, good>
and the owner (who was very friendly) said CopperSafe would not be removed from the system (I know by using Polyfilter/carbon it can be removed per WWM) and that is what I'm planning to do.
<"Would not be removed"... Umm, you/they can do a very simple experiment... add the product to a sample of water... test it over time... Magic! Where's it going?>
Also, my undulated trigger, after showing some discoloration in his body, his skin is now peeling off he's in another QT by himself now proved to be too aggressive anyway)).
The QT was coppered when I treated my yellow tang. Now the trigger's left eye is covered by what looks to be something like 'skin or white film' and he's very sluggish. Any ideas what happened here?
<Study>
Thank you for the advice, you've been a great help in dealing with this mess. I will keep reading WWM when I have free time).
<Don't do anything w/o understanding what you're doing... Bob Fenner>
D.

Question (Ich, follow-through)
Thanks so much for responding to my original email.
<You're welcome>
I am now completely stumped and don't know what to do. My Flame Angel was doing just great with no more signs of ich then 2 days ago the spots returned??
<Yes, as I stated in the last correspondence, this parasite's life cycle involves alternating stages off their fish hosts, reproducing in/on the substrate and re-seeking of hosts...>
Today Flame is in terrible condition and I am afraid he is not going to make it. I have no idea what to do at this point to help him.
Scooter and Fire fish look like they are fine.
<You were referred to sections of our site: www.WetWebMedia.com under "Marine Parasitic Disease"... if you had read there you would not be confused.>
I have continued to use the CopperSafe along with an antibiotic in my hospital tank. The water quality is fine as I have been checking it daily and doing water changes as needed to control the ammonia. I have been adding CopperSafe along with the water changes...
I don't understand how the ich could come back as long as the medication is in the tank.
<I suspect that you don't have a physiological dose of free copper in the system... your test kit may be mismatched for this type of copper (are you using a chelated copper test kit?)... did you lower the spg of the water, elevate temperature?...>
I am at a total loss on what to do next and how I can help my fish. It is just breaking my heart to see him suffer. I have never seen it this bad like it is this morning. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Many Thanks, Christine
<Re-read the WWM site re ich, its treatment, and the many sections on copper use on the Marine Index. This parasite can be beat, and needs to be addressed NOW if you want to save your fish livestock. Bob Fenner>

Ich
Dear Bob,
Sorry to bother you again. I just asked for your advice yesterday and thanks for your quick response.
I have a 75 g tank which has been stable for a month after I set it up about over 2 months ago. I have 4 blue damsels (1 inch), 1 tomato clown (1.5 inches), 1 threadfin butterfly (2.5 inches), 1 purple tang (3 inches), 1 yellow tang (3 inches), and 1 Picasso trigger (2.5 inches).
All the fish have been eating normally. First the butterfly has a little white spot (1/8'') on its pectoral fin. It is not spreading and the size has been the same. However, the butterfly and the two tangs have been dashing and scrubbing against objects in the tank for a about a week for now. You told me to use biological cleaners but I have not been able to purchase any.
<Mmm, too late...>
Last night I noticed a little white cotton-like spot on the purple tang. So this morning I went to Petco to get a 10g hospital tank. I figured the whole system has been infected so I moved my live rock (about 20 lbs) to the 10g tank and prepare to treat the main tank with CopperSafe. Of course I did not move the infected water into this tank. When I removed the carbon from the external filter (Magnum 350), I found 4 or 5 little moving creatures (white little worms). There might be more. I then looked and tried to find them in the tank but there were none that I could detect. I did a 20% water change and added the copper. The fish have been doing ok so far. The only problem now is that the ammonia level goes up to 0.5 mg/L. Nitrite is still 0 and Nitrate is still around 10. I fed the tank with Bacter Plus and hope that it will bring the NH3 down.
My questions are:
- Is the NH3 up due to the facts that I removed the live rock, cleaned the external filter out (tried to kill all the worms), and disturbed the gravel bed (tried to remove the waste) ?
<Probably>
- It says that CopperSafe doesn't affect the biological filtration system. Is that true?
<Mmm, it can>
- Will I be able to manage the NH3 with Bacter Plus in the mean time ?
<Probably not. You should monitor this and nitrite, be prepared to execute water changes...>
- How long should I keep the copper in the tank before removing it by carbon ? 2 weeks ? 4 week ? or until the fish stop dashing and scrubbing ?
<Please read over the WWM site here...>
- Since the NH3 goes up, feeding the fish only once a day or even every other day is recommended ?
<As often as you consider prudent>
- It says that I should keep Cu level at 1.5 to 2 ppm but when I looked into the Cu lab test, the chart only goes up to 0.5 or something. How can
check for Cu level then?
<Please read over the WWM site... you need a chelated copper test kit...>
I feel so bad for the fish. When I first got into this hobby, I did not expect diseases were such a problem, I only thought the challenge was to
maintain quality of water. I hope my fish will survive and I do have faith.
Thanks for all your help again.
A new and anxious marine hobbyist (spelling?)
<You're doing fine... the expensive, arduous "lesson" of the value of quarantine is indeed "expensive". Bob Fenner>
Quang H.

Ich and other trials
Dear Bob
<Hope we're not breaking up>
Loved your book (Conscientious Marine Aquarist), but stupidity and poverty led me to ignore some of your suggestions.
<This happens>
I know, I know-- but I'm hoping you'll forgive me because I need some advice and I haven't met anyone with the knowledge that makes me trust their answers to somewhat detailed, and perhaps system specific, questions.
<No fight, no blame>
I have a nano-reef tank of eleven gallons. I have all soft corals, which are
thriving. The tank is both "over skimmed" (the model I have is supposed to work for up to a 70 gallon tank-- I got it used and was told this was "fine"-- and I also run a very small carbon filter) and "over stocked"-- in addition to the corals (1 large finger-leather, 1 medium colt, two small polyps colonies), there are 4 blue-leg hermits, a peppermint shrimp, a cleaner shrimp, a fire shrimp, 2 bumblebee snails, 3 various "coralline" snails, 2 featherdusters, a calcareous tube worm sometimes called a Cocoworm, several small macroalgae colonies, plus 4 small fish: a greenbanded goby (Gobiosoma multifasciatum), a neon goby, a Banggai cardinal and a fairy wrasse (c. rubriventralis). I check my water for everything religiously and double check by having the local marine store test, too. The system has been up for about 5 months now. Most of my losses have been filter feeders that couldn't handle the clean water (I think)-- a few crabs, a crocea clam, along with a few incompatible corals that spewed each other out of existence (the winner of this little celebrity death match was the colt).
<Do you live in a closet? Would you like to?>
Things finally seemed stable, healthy and compatible, when the bloody fish came down with ich and I had no second tank. I bought one and set up a hospital/quarantine tank, where I'm treating the ich problem with Cupramine buffered active copper.
<What do you consider the net causes of your problems are?>
My questions fall into two areas: the implications of my over filtered water and the ich problem.
Right now I run both the skimmer and the filter 24/7. The water is extremely clean (there's an additional powerhead for circulation as well, so little detritus collects).
<Cleanliness is not sterility>
Ammonia and nitrates are zero and even with all the tank's organisms (which I carelessly feed well with no repercussions thus far), nitrites have been slow to build up, generally staying around 15-20 ppm with the regular water changes.
<Make that nitrates>
The tank has an open top and this requires almost constant water additions. Because the skimmer takes out trace elements (a problem of overskimming I couldn't miss), my replacement water is mixed with
trace elements and in order to maintain a constant salinity, is usually mixed
at about 1.015-1.018. I also feed my inverts several different liquid foods (a somewhat questionable mish-mash-- "Microvert", live phytoplankton, and what they seem to like best, the liquid run off from my Ocean Nutrition "Brine Shrimp Plus" fish food) almost constantly, since the skimmer takes that out, too. Finally, I add iodine to every top off. I add enough iodine for a 70 gallon aquarium (gee, the same as the skimmer capacity, surprise) and my levels are always well below max, though there is constantly some present. I also add calcium, but this seems to stay in the system better, esp. now that the only calcium hogs are the snails and Cocoworm (no more hard corals...). My general question is this: is there anything else I can expect to happen because of my over filtration?
<More troubles>
If so, how do I compensate?
<Umm, a larger system>
Would you advise removing the carbon filter here? The skimmer provides the system's oxygen, so I'd rather leave that running, if possible. Also, will my adding water with trace elements compensate for the skimmer's effects?
<All compensating mechanisms... like scuba gear added for terrestrial organisms...>
I'd appreciate any advice here, and I realize I deserve outright mockery, but I love my little tank and want to make it run well.
<Then "respect" it for what it is... a very small system. Better to set it up, run it "sailboat" style rather than a motorboat with a throttle... with live rock, little skimming (like a Prizm) and scarce feeding...>
Now, the ich problem. The gobies are infested, the Banggai has never had any and the wrasse has just had a few dots here and there. The copper (now at .15 for the third day) didn't help until the dosage reached that level (the ich got worse in fact) and even still, seemed to have little effect on the gobies (who are utterly infested), so I began freshwater dips. I know they are already stressed, but the parasites are so numerous, I though the gobies would die otherwise. I've started dipping each 1 min at a time, 3 times a day. It seems to have killed off the majority of the parasites, though still a few remain, so I was planning on continuing the dips.
<The gobies will only become promptly reinfested with return to this system>
Meanwhile, I have kept the gobies in a plastic container with circulation holes, floating at the top of the hospital tank (the same 11 gallon model as the main one), because I was told that they would have a harder time with the parasite, since they stay on the bottom of the tank. All of this seems to be helping but I think the battle is far from over.
<You display both qualities of compassion and intelligence, AND obstinacy and arrogance simultaneously. Is this a pretense?>
My questions:
How long should I let the reef tank lie fallow? I'm willing to do it indefinitely and have planned on a month. Would longer help?
<Not much more than a month... given elevated temperature, lowered spg.>
Is the goby situation typical? Is there some chance that they can't be cured
by the copper?
<Can be>
I'm told that the Cupramine will leave the system. Is this true?
<Yes, but best to be removed "on purpose": http://www.wetwebmedia.com/curemovalfaqs.htm>
If it is, I was thinking of leaving the afflicted fish in there until after the copper levels had dropped in order to make sure the ich wouldn't make a come back (this could be done in less time than the other tank is to remain fallow in any case). Any other suggestions?
<To... carefully... consider... what it is you're about here>
Again, any help you can offer would be invaluable. I have spent hours pouring over the FAQs on your site and learn more from them than anywhere (your wonderful book is a excellent beginning, but the detailed information in these FAQs is unbeatable). The service you provide for us hapless (and careless) aquarists is really quite great. Derek
<Of all times, circumstances, do wish we could do something akin to the "Vulcan Mind Meld"... you are an invaluable chance to this interest/planet... Don't let this opportunity to learn, express yourself escape you. You can eradicate the ich problem on these gobies simply (copper, dipping, cleaner shrimp)... what will you do beyond? Bob Fenner>

Featured Sponsors: