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by Robert (Bob) Fenner
Best treatment available for scratching Chelmon rostratus
Hi Crew, from the UK.
<Hail from Chicago, US>
Sincerely hope to find you all healthy and in good spirits.
Just a quickie really (if you'll excuse the term). You guys have
helped me so much in the last ten or so years, I will forever be
indebted to you.
One of these days I will send you a bottle of Scottish nectar,
(Single Malt) Just let me know where to send it?
<Ooooh; have given up on alcohol, but I thank you for your offer>
Anyway, my question. I've read on WWM about a treatment, a "later
greater technology" for Amyloodinium based on Quinine,
'Chloroquine Phosphate'. Is this a product which one can purchase over
<I don't know re the UK; but can be purchased online in the US>
& if it is, what brand name/s might it go under?
<There's a list on WWM:
I haven't had cause to treat any fish since I started quarantining
absolutely everything/anything that went into my main display.
That was about 20 years ago. Now I have a problem. I have been
'given' three fish, one Chaetodon Bennetti (Bennett's Butterfly), one
Threadfin Butterfly (Chaetodon auriga) and one Chelmon rostratus
(Copperband butterfly) all are youngsters and between one and a half and
two inches long. I had to rather hastily get a QT up & running, all I
had was a 20 gallon tank on which I put my D-D fluidised sand bed filter
from my main tank and my D-D fluidised bed with one litre of (fresh)
Rowacarbon in it.
These are well over capacity (see link below) for a 20 gallon QT I
know, but it's all I had. They are the type shown on eBay below.
(and no, I am not on a commission!)
You're probably well ahead of me here. The fish all look fine
with no abrasions or dustings with salt nor fine pepper but the
copperband is scratching/flicking just the one side above the gills on
the two pieces of live rock I put in the QT from my main display. Would
I be overdoing it, do you think by putting a UV sterilizer on the QT
<Not overdoing it. I would put this device on if I had it>
It would be a big one again for about a 200 litre tank. I have an
ozoniser but am not sure how best to filter the residual ozone without a
I'm sorry guys, this wasn't such a quickie after all. I do always search
your great site, there is always something to learn but on this occasion
I need some advice.
Keep up the good work. I'm damned sure you have helped our reefs around
the world more than any government have ever done.
With sincere thanks
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Current wisdom for treatment of Copperband with Crypt?
I have poured through the available resources on your site looking to
find the current recommended treatment for Crypt with a Copperband
Butterfly. I could not find a definitive answer, so I am asking here.
I took delivery of the Copperband, a Kole tang and a Firefish one week
ago yesterday. They were all placed into a 20 gallon QT tank with
subdued lighting, PVC pieces for comfort, heater and sponge filter.
After two days, the Copperband readily accepted frozen Mysis. The Kole
and Firefish eat this as well, and I supplement their diets with other
items (which the Copperband doesn't touch, but since it is on Mysis in
the QT, I don't believe it is anything to worried about).
<Not yet... but would wean onto something more fully nutritious... my
choice NLS Spectrum pellets (small size)>
This morning, I noticed the Copperband has a few small white spots, like
salt crystals, on the front fins and rear fin. Looking at photos of
it looks identical. It doesn't look like lymphocites (sp?)
<Lymphocystis> to me.
What would the recommended treatment be, considering I also have a tang
and Firefish in the same tank (and should treat them as well since they
have been exposed, according to your site)?
<Mmm, yes... either a quinine compound (CP) or copper-based med...>
If the recommendation is quinine based, is there a second recommendation
(it will take me some time to procure the quinine, and I would rather
start treatment now if at all possible rather than wait for shipping to
arrive, especially with the weekend coming up)?
<Freshwater dips might "get you by" in the meanwhile... knocking off
surface parasites, along with some vacuuming of the bottom to remove
encysted intermediate forms>
If hyposalinity is called for, I have done it successfully in the past
with a purple tang. I have an accurate hydrometer and have an RO/DI
filter at home ready to go.
<Am not a fan of hypo... as stated on WWM under my name/responses>
In the meantime, I have raised the temp to 80* since it appears to be a
recommendation for all possible crypt treatments to raise the
Thank you for your assistance.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner
Re: Current wisdom for treatment of Copperband with Crypt?
To the esteemed Mr. Fenner (never a bad idea to compliment those you are
Following up on my suspected crypt infection on the Copperband
I opted for CopperSafe from Mardel. I did find copper test kit.
I administered the recommended amount of copper. 6 days ago.
I did a partial (4 gallon) water change two days ago, and added in the
appropriate amount of copper back with the fill water. Copper test
But the white spots are still there, and there are a couple march large
white 'blotches' on the fins. Looking at photos of Lymphocystis,
it looks like a strong possibility (especially since the copper didn't
knock anything noticeable off the fins). The larger spots are
much, much larger than the smaller salt like spots - probably 2-3mm.
<Mmm, not Crypt, not Protozoan>
The Copperband continues to eat Mysis with gusto (as well as live brine,
but they lack any significant nutritional assistance unless they are gut
loaded, which is kind of hard to do), but isn't paying much attention to
scallop, clam, spectrum pellets or Spirulina. I have tried to soak
the Mysis in garlic and feed the same time as the spectrum A pellets to
get it to move over to the pellets, but so far, it isn't budging.
But I digress...
<Shades of J. Alfred Prufrock>
So should I continue to keep in copper,
or begin to dilute out (or use chemical stripper) the copper. I
also have a Kole tang in there (since it was in the QT with the
butterfly, and suspected exposure dictated all fish in that QT go
through treatment). I don't want the Kole in the copper much more
than 10-14 days.
Kind of confused now....do I continue copper? Discontinue?
Put Kole in display? Put Copperband in display? Medicate
with something else?
<... I'd discontinue the Cu... move all through a dip/bath... Try
purposeful cleaner/s in the main/display, perhaps the medicated food
As always, much thanks and appreciation.
butterfly / Praziquantel and Metronidazole usage.
<And some of the tender gender Eric.>
I recently introduced a copper-band butterfly fish in my quarantine.
After two days of eating well I decided to start medicated her for
internal parasites. The only med with Praziquantel that I found
available was combined with Metronidazole. 37.5 mgs of Prazi and 135
mgrs of Metro.
<A good combo. for such application>
The recommended dosage that I new was safe is 100-150 mgs/40 lts
of Prazi and some 125 mgs /40 lts of Metro.
Both meds in the web mention that there little chance of overdose.
I medicated my quarantine with 60 mgrs of Prazi and 250 mgrs of Metro
simultaneously. I now realize that the Metro was twice as high as I
should have dose the Quarantine water.
After 12 hours of treatment the fish was heavily breathing and gasping
for air. I then did a 100 % water change but the fish did not improve.
Until today the fish lies down heavily breathing. Its been 24 hrs now.
She is stable but not improving as I would hope. Can you please comment
on my dosage. Is it a bad idea to medicate both Prazi & Metro
<That stated as "safe" s/b fine>
What would be your recommend sequence medication and dosage for the two
<Likely just the one dose... three day, week's exposure. Better by far
to get these compounds inside the fish/es (via foods). See WWM re>
As per the info I have described is the reaction normal or her condition
( recent capture ) could of caused a liver damage or
and at last in your opinion is there hope?
Thanks in advance.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Copperband Butterfly fish, QT, med.s
Hello WWM crew once again,
<Good Evening Giancarlo, Bobby here>
So i have purchased a Copperband butterfly fish, it is currently in the
q/t tank which it will stay for roughly 3 weeks or so.
<Do not limit yourself to a time frame, complete the process in
Great job on practicing quarantine though!>
It is eating great, so far eats Spirulina brine shrimp, and mosquito
larvae, i plan on varying the diet, but for now i believe this is a good
start. I am starting PraziPro treatment tonight, along with
Cupramine treatment in about a weeks time. I am aware its
dangerous to mix chemicals but reliable sources have stated these 2
treatments work fine with each other. Anyway on to the issue at
hand, the fish acts/eats normally but the sides of it have some sort of
scratches, miscolouration and possibly even a missing scale or two.
Attached are some pictures they are the best i could get, i hope this is
just physical damage due to it being captured, or in some fight, and
will heal with time?
<Based on the pictures it does appear to be physical damage. If
so, your main concern will be secondary infection. If it is
superficial, it will heal rapidly. Pay close attention for any red
streaking on the body that may indicate a bacterial infection, internal
or otherwise. If you do not see improvement pretty quickly, then I
would consider an antibiotic treatment.>
Or should i be implementing some sort of treatment? I have read
that Maracyn two heals fin damage, but i am thinking jumping into
another medication might be a little drastic right now.
<Maracyn 2 can be useful, although I find Furan a good product also>
My plan is to stick with my q/t procedures and hopefully get the fish on
a good quality flake/pellet food if possible? And during the
process treat with PraziPro and Cupramine as mentioned before.
<Hold off on any copper treatment until this is resolved and the fish is
I have plenty of fresh salt water already mixed so i will be doing
diligent water changes during the whole q/t period. If there is
anything else i can do please advise.
<In the future, I would suggest you allow the fish a week or two minimum
in QT before adding any medication for just this scenario. You
want to make sure you are able to respond to any immediate concerns
prior to prophylactic measures. In this case again, monitor
closely over the next 48 hours. You will know whether it is minor
or not by then. Keep us posted!>
Thanks again! Giancarlo
Re Copperband Butterfly fish
Hey Bobby, thanks again for the help. The fish is doing great, fully
healed in about 2 days time.
<Glad to hear it is doing well!!>
I'll wait about a week and then go ahead with the copper treatment.
I have started to feed the butterfly with scallops and shrimp, this guy
eats like a pig, but I will start looking for a good commercial food to
feed. Anyway I just thought id fill you in. G
<Thank you. Bobby>
CBB Quarantine 10/07/11
I really appreciate what you all do!
I love copper banded butterflies but my first did not make it past my QT.
This time I decided to try a new approach. My friend gave me her reef (40
gallons, medium lighting, lost of live rock with tons of Aiptasia and
Bristol worms). <Like the famous Bristol chicken!?> I pulled its two fish
inhabitants, got rid of the sand and threw the rocks up on shelves and
started the (still not compete) task of coaxing as many of the Bristol
worms out as possible <Show them holiday brochures of Surrey and
(no plans for fish inhabitants for now). I found a healthy looking CBB and
put him in the tank in hopes that I could get him eating and otherwise
adjusted to life in the aquarium before throwing him in the medicated QT.
He started picking at the Aiptasia right away and showed interest in
frozen shrimp. On day three, though, I noticed 4 or 5 spots of Ich and
decided to throw him a QT (15 gallons, sponge filter, heater) with
copper (I don't know the brand but I use every time I set up the QT).
What do you think about throwing a piece of the live rock with the
Aiptasia in the medicated tank as an added source of food while the CBB
deals with the stress of the medicine?
<Mmm, will complicate the use of copper here>
I am not worried about losing some rock if it helps the CBB make it.
This morning I noticed that he is breathing rapidly (seems typical with
advanced Ich). Do you think a fresh water dip help him at this point or
should I keep the stress as low as possible and just wait it out with
<Mmm, up to you...>
Finally, if you know of a better treatment for CBBs than copper, I am all
<Am a bigger fan of Quinine compounds nowayears for most cases. Please
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Bump on my Copperband Butterfly
I have a 2 year old 135g reef, 50g sump, 10g refugium
filled with macro algae. Water parameters are currently: SG
1.025, pH 8.2, kH 8dkh, Ca 415ppm, Mg 1245ppm, T 82degF,
Nitrate 0mg/L, Phosphate also 0mg/L.
<Mmm, "reef" photosynthetic life requires some
NO3 and HPO4>
I purchased a ~3.25inch Copperband butterfly 5 days back
both because they are beautiful, and because of the
uncontrollable Aiptasia population in my display. I've
done my reading about these fish and did my best when
selecting him. He had been in the store for about 1 week,
he was quite alert and an active swimmer, and I watched him
eat frozen Mysis, brine, and bloodworms before making my
I brought him home and put him in a 10g aquarium which is
not quite a QT because its "in the loop" with my
refugium. I knew the 200g system as a whole would be much
more stable than the 10g alone if it were isolated.
<Yes... and considering what you state re the appearance
of this specimen, its care at the LFS, and your excellent
photo, I would summarily place this fish in your
The "QT" could be isolated for
medication/treatments if necessary, however my main
objective was to keep him in a place where I could easily
watch his behavior/appetite.
<Understood... and/but this animal is quite thin... I
would move it (high confidence limit)>
He's currently picking lightly at frozen bloodworms,
but will eat live bloodworms (maybe Blackworms) as long as
I am willing to dish them out. He does not yet appear to be
eating the Aiptasia on the small pieces of LR I
placed in his tank... but I have high hopes for him.
Yesterday I noticed a "bump" on his back, which
reminds me of a bump from getting hit in the forehead. I
have circled the bump in red in the attached picture.
<I see this>
This morning I noticed a small bit of white cloudiness
(haze) on one of his eyes. After reading about the
cloudiness, it sounds like this is likely due to stress
(likely of his recent transport and into his small 10g
<I do agree>
The bump seems high enough up on his back that it is likely
from a physical trauma, though I see no damage to his
flesh. I see no white material on the bump, or external
signs of infection.
If it is signs of stress he is exhibiting, should I move
him into the display tank?
<Yes I would>
Or does the bump indicated something I should treat him
<Not in a place from a "needle stick" from
decompression... Most likely resultant from a physical blow
of some sort>
Thanks for all of the help! I've been reading WWM
regularly for almost 5 years now, and it has helped me
design and run my first system.
<Thank you for your kind words, participation. Bob
Re: Bump on my Copperband Butterfly
Sorry to send another so quickly, but I have noticed his
condition getting worse in the last 24 hours. My main dilemma
is whether I should be treating him, leaving him where he is
until he heals, or putting him in the main
display to reduce stress.
<I'd move this fish pronto. There is a very small
likelihood of it having anything "catching">
This morning I noticed his fin looking discolored behind the
bump, radiating away from the body. It looks almost like a
bruise. Also, the fin on the opposite side of his body
(opposite of the bump) is increasing in redness, and is not
smooth. I wouldn't call it an open wound exactly.. but it
doesn't look right.
His cloudy eye SEEMS to be popping out slightly more than his
good eye, though maybe I'm just being paranoid.
His breathing is definitely quicker this morning as well.
Again, I don't know if I should treat, give up, or move
him to the display to reduce stress. I am new to keeping
species that are this delicate, but I REALLY want to make all
efforts do right by him. I really expected the
challenge with this guy to lie in his feeding rather than
disease. This is really my first experience with possible
disease- I want to learn from the experience in the very
Any insight the crew can offer is greatly appreciated. Thanks
again for your help.
<Sorry for the delay in my responses. I was out/away from
the Net this wknd. BobF>
|Need Help with Diagnosis:
Copperband Butterfly 09/17/07 I purchased a Copperband
Butterfly fish on Friday (9/14) from an online vendor. I
noticed some redness on the bottom right and left sides of
this fish today (Sunday, 9/16). The eyes and fins are clear.
I have pics of this fish located here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7329275@N05 <Bad scrape...
likely a thrashing with being roughly netted in the
wild...> The fish is not eating yet, prolly still
recovering from his trip. Is this a viral or bacterial issue?
Is this something that can be treated? If so, with what?
<May become bacterial... No "treatment"
suggested other than good care...> The other fish in the
tank <... this fish was not quarantined? Mistake> are a
pair of cinnamon clownfish and a gold spotted Rabbitfish. The
clownfish have been in the tank for 2.5 months and the
Rabbitfish for one month. they are healthy and are eating
vigorously. Salinity- 1.024 Nitrates-0 Ammonia-0 Nitrites-0
Calcium-420 Alk-3.43 Temp 80.6 Any advice and suggestions are
appreciated. Thanks Kirk
<Read... on WWM re Chelmon care... Bob Fenner>
Copperband/Disease Treatment 7/11/06 I read
on your website that Copperbands can be prone to copper
medication. <<Prone? RMF>> <Yes.> I have a
Copperband in a QT tank with several other fish. Should I use the
same does as indicated on the bottle or should I reduce the dose?
I am using SeaChem activated copper, if this helps. <No such
thing as activated copper. You are referring to
Cupramine, a buffered, active copper. I would isolate the
Copperband in another tank. Copperbands are very
sensitive to copper treatment. Freshwater dips and
formalin (Rid-Ich+ by Kordon, formalin and malachite green) would
be my choice. > Thank you. <You're
welcome. James (Salty Dog)> A
BF spot, Dottyback color loss,
Centropyge feeding in QT 7/12/06 Thanks for your
prompt reply, <Please include prev. corr...> I have done as
you said and given my Copperband with a freshwater dip mixed with
M/Green. He has a parasite attached to his front left fin, I hope
it will come off after a few more dips. But he is looking much
better after the first dip, the itch has receded significantly.
And he's eating well as usual. <Mmm, a parasite? Might
just be a "spot" from bumping into something... I'd
try a purposeful cleaner organism... perhaps a Lysmata sp.
shrimp... Gobiosoma goby...> Now onto my Dottyback. He has
lost a lot of colour, when I got him he was a bright magenta and
yellow, now he's faded to a dull purple and yellow. I have
been told this is due to him not being the dominant fish in the
aquarium, as the Anthias don't seem to like him too much and
chase him sometimes. <Possibly a/the factor here> I feed
him Mysid shrimp, brine, algae flakes, angel fish mix, ocean
plankton, pretty much whatever I can get my hands on, and he is
still showing no signs of his original colour. Any suggestions?
<Spectrum pelleted food/s> My final question is about my
eibli angel, which is refusing to eat Mysid shrimp, marine algae,
brine shrimp and flakes. He is in my QT tank atm, and I'm
worried that he hasn't eaten for 2 days. I am not treating
the tank with any medication so I am thinking of buying a small
piece of live rock for him to nibble on. Would you suggest Nori
too? <Do add a good deal of ready-cured live rock with obvious
algal growth> I'll just like to add that you guys provide
a valuable service and your advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks. Albany <Welcome. Bob Fenner>
White spot or ick on my Copperbanded butterfly
Hello, <<And hello to you. JasonC here...>> I was
needing to get information on treating what seems to be marine
ick on my Copperbanded butterfly. It is on one side fin and the
tail. <<Are these fins well salted or just a few spots? If
not more than I few spots I probably wouldn't be concerned, I
would just keep up the observation.>> No other fish is
infected. I have coral and invertebrate in my tank. <<Do
you have a cleaner shrimp or neon goby?>> Is there
something that I can use that won't hurt my coral and
inverts? What do you suggest! Daniel <<Well, in all but the
most extreme cases, I try to leave the medications in the bottle
and instead either let nature take its course or add more nature,
meaning biological cleaners. Problem parasites like Ich and the
like are present in tank water almost 100% of the time, and
usually a healthy fish can deal with a parasite or two...
it's when parasite numbers grow to epidemic proportions that
things get weird. Cleaner shrimp and neon gobies can help keep
these parasites in check. Here's some reading for you:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm Cheers, J --
Re: white spot or ick on my Copperbanded
butterfly Hello Jason, <<And hello to you, Sir.>>
The Butterfly has only about 2-3 spots on fin and 2-3 spots on
tail. I have 2 cleaner shrimp, but no goby. Thanks, Daniel
<<Sounds good to me, I wouldn't worry much about those
spots. Do keep the fish under observation, look for scratching
behaviors, to make sure things aren't growing out of
proportion. No worries yet. Cheers, J -- >>
Copperband questions My 60g FOWLR tank has been
running extremely well since it was set up 9 months ago (mostly
due to all of the excellent information on WWM!) but I have a few
quick questions for you: <K, shoot> 1) I currently have a
Maroon Clown, Yellow Tail Damsel, Yellow Tang, Coral Banded
Shrimp, and various hermits/LR hitchhikers. I am
moving house in the next few weeks and thought that this would be
an ideal time to add a Copperband Butterfly. My idea
was to move the three established fish into the QT tank with the
Butterfly for a few days (when it is Ich free - see Q2) and then
re-introduce them all into the main tank at the same time when it
was up and running in the new house. <Sounds kind of risky,
you may crash the QT in the process...> What do you think my
chances are that the Tang will get along with the
butterfly? (They are both about 4") <Depends
on how large the QT is, if it's small then the tang will
fight for sure. Keep in mind both the Copperband and your yellow
tang will get large and will have to be relocated to a bigger
home.> 2) The butterfly has been in my quarantine tank for the
past two weeks but I am struggling to get rid of a few small Ich
spots (I think) that keep re-appearing on the fins. I
have lowered the spg and increased the temp but am having no luck
so far. <Hyposalinity is only effective at around a SG of
1.009.> I'm not a big fan of copper as the only death that
I've had in the last nine months was an angel that was being
treated. Are butterfly's just as sensitive to copper? <Not
in my experience.> Should I try FW dips or one of the
copper-free treatments? <Try some formalin and a freshwater
dip or two, check out the dipping FAQ's first> 3) I
recently tried to get hold of some Mysis shrimp at my LFS but
they didn't have any in stock. I brought some
glass worms instead which my butterfly loves but are these
nutritionally hollow? <They're fine for now but do have
your LFS order in some Mysis shrimp. It's readily available
from several different manufacturers; my favorite is Piscine
Energetics brand.> From what I can make out from the limited
info. on the pack, they seem to be similar to brine shrimp so
maybe not such a good choice. <The idea is to provide a
variety of foods, brine shrimp and glassworms can be part of a
slurry of other types of foods with great success. I suggest you
go out and pick up a few different kinds of seafood based frozen
foods.> Thanks very much in advance for your help. <Enjoy!
Aiptasia, Copperband, No Quarantine? Hi all, my
two month old 55 gal tank (only with LR and now some snails) is
being overrun by Aiptasia. Was going to go the peppermint shrimp
route until they died in transit via FedEx. My LFS (AWESOME) has
offered a Copperband for a couple weeks to clean them out and
then I can return him. I know we are not supposed to be adding
non-quarantined fish to the display tank, and past experience
proves that theory as valid for me. Should I use the fish without
QT? Do we bend the rules in this case? Do I put the
Butterfly right in the tank to go to work on the Aiptasia without
a quarantine first? My understanding is that this Butterfly has a
pretty specialized diet and is pretty hard to keep to begin with.
Quarantining him in a bare tank would seem dangerous for the
animal to begin with. I know your opinion on QT so
maybe I am wasting my breath. <You are correct, nothing goes
into the main tank without a 4-5 week QT.> He also says the
Peppermint Shrimp route is a 50/50 toss since there are two
species of Peps and you might get the one that doesn't eat
the Aiptasia. Says the Copperband is the best route.
<Not sure about the two species, but the camel back shrimp is
oft confused with the peppermint.> This LFS is one of the most
highly reputable and respected in my area, so chances are the
fish would be in good condition and clean, but one never knows.
<Exactly. You might check here
and the links at the top of the page for more on Aiptasia.
Don> Any advice? Thanks.
Butterflyfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
New eBook on Amazon: Available
New Print Book on Create Space: Available
by Robert (Bob) Fenner