FAQs on Quinine Compounds: Sources
Related Articles: Use of
Biological Cleaners, Aquatic
Surgery, The Three Sets of Factors
That Determine Livestock Health/Disease,
Related FAQs: Quinine
Compound Med.s, Quinine Cpd.s/Med.s
Dosing/Treatment, Troubles/Fixing, Accounts/Success Stories, & FAQs on:
Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3, Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelminthics/Vermifuges/Dewormers,
Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce,
other shams...), Malachite
Blue, Metronidazole, Sulfas, Treating
II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic
Disease, Garlic Use,
Marine Disease 1, Puffer Disease,
Alternatively, you may have success securing CP
through a veterinary or medical doctor. Greenex: Malachite Green &
Quinine HCL (Aquatronics) Quinine
Your veterinarian, medical doctor...
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Hoping to help spread the word, here's another supplier I found, no word
50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% |
salt | J64459 | Alfa Aesar| Alfa Aesar
| 50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% | N4-(7-Chlo...Hazard
| View on www.alfa.com
Two questions. NLS Quinine product; Cephalopholis stkg., sel.
I have read you are a fan of quinine based Meds for ich as opposed to
What do you think of the new life spectrum product "ich shield powder"?
It is supposedly Chloroquine phosphate.
<Don't have any personal experience with this product, but know the
owner of the company (Pablo Tepoot) to be an honest, competent person>
Also, I asked my lfs to bring in a bigger miniatus grouper a few weeks
ago, and he brought in that's 6 to 7 inches.
Does that side grouper translate better than a smaller one?
<Mmm; no... a three-four inch specimen is ideal... Unless you have
large/r tankmates already>
Also, does it really make a difference with them if they are indo
pacific, vs. Sri Lanka or Fiji? Not concerned color wise, simply health
<Just not P.I. or Indo... all where else are superior. Bob Fenner>
Re: Two questions 2/11/15
Thanks bob. Is that quinine sulfate or Chloroquine phosphate you prefer?
<See WWM re>
I see it is not easy to get a hold of, wonder if the fish pHarm. crypto
pro is any good?
I will ask lfs if he knows locale of grouper. It came from quality
marine, so he may not even know.
I can almost definitively say source is huge. My gray and blue angel
from a month ago are doing well, as they were from Florida, caught and
shipped. A year ago from California, dead in a week.
Ich and CP Tx
Hi, Thanks for having such an informative site, and happy new year!
<And you J>
I have been reading the past few weeks on trying to cure ich. My fish have been
free of it for a while and I recently upgraded and foolishly threw in a couple
tangs without QT (never again, trust me: I've had heaters blow and kill fish in
the meantime with transferring, been electrocuted many times, spent more money
than I should with salt, water, etc).
<Dang! Trial by fire!>
Anyway I am currently dosing an approx. ~38.5 gallon total volume
hospital tank with a yellow, purple, sohal, and Naso tang, 3 Anthias, small 6
line, blenny, and two clowns (they normally live in a 6' tank).
<Mmm; I would have tried treating these in place (in the main tank)...
Too much stress from crowding; esp. all these surgeonfishes together in such a
Anyway, the sohal and purple tang showed up with spots when I introduced them
into the tank, so I pulled all fish out on Xmas day. They recently began Tx on
Saturday 1/3/15, at an initial dosage of 5/8 tsp. An additional 1/8 tsp was
added on 1/4, but then I noticed some of the fish (namely the sohal and the
purple tang) not eating like before. The sohal would devastate any Nori when in
the tank, and now just grazes by it.
<Yes... the aforementioned stress from crowding>
The yellow and purple tang are definitely showing spots of ich now, and the
sohal and yellow tang scratch their bodies on the PVC piping. Naso tang just
cruises along and eats like normal, male Tierra Anthias seems uninterested in
food at the moment as well.
I have been trying to find an answer to no avail, but I did a 10% water change
to reduce the concentration of the CP to approx 5/8 tsp, when I noticed them
last eating like normal in hopes of getting them back to eating. So I am writing
you to ask if 1) does CP cause a suppression in appetite after a day or two of
<Yes it does, can.... along w/ all being jammed together>
and also, can and does ich appear even when Tx the water with CP?
<Well; the "spots" may not be Cryptocaryon if this is what you're asking.
Only can be accurately ascertained via sampling and microscopic examination>
Is CP only effective in the free swimming state of ich?
<Yes; as far as I'm aware>
Thanks for any insight, and I look forward to your response.
Re: Ich and CP Tx
Thanks Bob! I know the HT is a bit small,
<Way too small psychologically... Acanthurids do NOT like... am working on a
title of the family presently>
fortunately for me (?) the tangs are on the smaller side, 2-3" max. The yellow
tang is the most established, 2.5 years old and Max size of 3.5".
There are definitely bumps coming from the sides of its body that weren't there
I chose to pull them out because I was going to do hypo on them, but I realized
it may be difficult to do so. So I bought some CP instead. They have been in the
40 gal breeder for about 1.5 weeks, eating normally and (still) swimming fine.
I must add, I do have coral and inverts on my DT, thus i didn't think of
treating the main tank.
<Life... is a series of compromises...>
I must ask you, do you think if I keep my water good and run the CP for at least
7 more days, they may be okay?
I really want to run the CP for about 3 weeks IF I could, and from all I've been
reading the CP would be contraindicated in a reef tank.
<Usually; yes... does/will kill off a BUNCH of life, cause complications that
may well not be easily countered>
Again, I appreciate your insight and thoughts and you're far more of an expert
Thanks again, Bob!!!
<Certainly welcome John. BobF>
<If it were mine, I'd return all these fishes to the large system, GIVEN the
caveats presented on WWM for use, and try the CP there; at 15 mg/l. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich and CP Tx 1/9/15
I just wanted to give you a quick update: I was able to move five small
fish into a 10 gallon tank (2 clowns, 3 Anthias) and all that remains in
the 40 are the tangs, a small wrasse and a blenny.
<Hope they're all getting along>
The CP is definitely showing signs in the tank where the white film is
all over the inside glass. Fish do have white stringy feces, and some
still aren't eating right.
<Yes; these are effects of the CP>
I had the water tested with an API ammonia kit and it is showing 8.0 ppm
within a few minutes,
performed some serious water changes and then tested using the Red Sea
ammonia kit and only find 0.8 on their colorimetric chart. Odd, right?
<... not really. API test kits are junk; neither accurate nor precise.
See WWM re getting better assay gear>
Ammonia alert badge is showing alert levels only. Could the API test be
giving me bum results?
<Assuredly; yes. Your fishes would all be dead...>
No signs of heavy breathing, fish don't show signs of ammonia toxicity.
Anyway, the spots on the yellow and purple tang have fallen off, and i
hope they don't show for the duration of the treatment! None of the
tangs seem to want to scratch anymore.
This is one costly non-QT mistake that I'll never make again. It's a
little disheartening to know the fish didn't have to go through this if
the other fish were QT'ed, and I hope I don't make them pay the ultimate
price for MY mistake.
<Me too... these sorts of frustrations, losses... the lack of readily
available, useful information (hence WWM) ARE the principal reasons the
hobby "runs through" about 100% of "customer base" every year. Please
Thanks for e-listening!!!
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich and CP Tx
Happy Friday, Bob!
<And you John>
Surprisingly tangs have been getting along fine. :) They really don't paying to
each other, and every once in a while they'll bicker, but nothing to the point
of a death match!
<Ah, good; like many Cichlids, when crowded Tangs may get along for a while>
At one point, the sohal would "shake" or spaz as he/she swam and would rub the
gill area on a pvc pipe, and then stop where the water returns from the HOB
filter. But no fast gilling/breathing. It did that for most of the day, today it
seemed a lot more calm and swam normally. No other tang was exhibiting this.
The only fish I am wary of is the 6 line in the same tank, it hovers in one spot
in the tank, but will pick at Masago when it's dropped in the tank (i drop very
little food into the hospital tanks with the ongoing "ammonia problem" I have;
Red Sea test tests 2.0 ppm, and I have been using Prime and two bottles of
BioSpira so far. A third bottle on the way)
The purple tang seems to have regained some appetite, and the sohal is the only
one in THAT tank not eating.
<Not a problem really>
In the other tank I noticed the Anthias swimming 90 degrees vertically, face up.
I thought they were goners but as soon as lights are out, they swim to the
bottom and take refuge by the pipes. What gives? When i approach the tank, they
are alert and dart to hide and go horizontal. Any ideas, Bob?
<Stress, the medication>
Thanks for being available for the aquatic community!!!
I trust you'll have a great weekend!
<Ah yes; thank you. BobF>
Re: Ich and CP Tx 1/11/15
Bob!!!! Great news, for me at least, :)
Looks like most fish, especially my favorite sohal, has regained their
appetites! Sohal used to only eat Nori, and is back at devouring it again.
So my observations with CP Tx:
1) appetite suppression (hopefully gone by now)
2) slowness, sluggishness in behavior, I wouldn't call it lethargic though.
Almost like "fish high"
3) ich appeared during treatment, but most likely ich completing the life cycle
during Tx in the fish.
4) accumulation of white film on glass, and a weird smell coming from the tanks.
5) "ammonia spikes"- not sure what to make of this.
<All known effects>
Anyway, I'll update you in hopes that maybe you'll be able to share my
experience on WWM so others can learn too.
<Thank you for sharing>
Re: Ich and CP Tx
A quick update: I had to ditch CP as a few days ago (7-8 days) ich exploded on
my sohal during tx. Thus I concluded the CP I bought, from a seller who
gets his supply from Fishman Chemicals, wasn't potent or pure enough.
At least the BioSpira saved the fish from ammonia poisoning while in the HT.
At this time, I am performing tank transfer for my remaining fish. The Anthias
(who don't eat by the way... ANYTHING) and clowns are in a separate tank still
and have never displayed any signs or symptoms of ich. Odd.
The remaining tangs (yellow died during first couple of days into TTM, as did a
wrasse) and Midas are doing well in TTM, eating normally, and not flashing. The
sohal was the worst and he seems spot free at the moment and has not flashed.
I transferred them out the next morning after the sohal had the worst display of
ich. Sure as day, the afternoon after the ich exploded on him, the lesions
disappeared and he looked normal. Luckily and hopefully they all remained back!
Anyway, now I am tasked with getting some pure ammonia in this newly set up QT (
new water, all equipment soaked in fresh water and vinegar for a day and dried
for several days) and adding some BioSpira later.
I must admit I've never had to set up an emergency, un-cycled QT before, and I
must get the fish in the QT by mid next week.
Any suggestions besides using anything from the DT which has been fallow since
<All posted on WWM; best to look there first>
Thanks for any insight, Bob! :)
<Cheers and thanks for the report. Bob Fenner>
Chloroquine phosphate -- quick
and cheap! And timely! 09/29/10
Just wanted to confirm the information for an inexpensive source for
Chloroquine Phosphate that was mentioned on WWM. For about $18 (most of
this cost was shipping), I had two, 20-packs, of 250 mg tablets shipped
Ordered on a Sunday, arrived the following Friday in Ohio-- not too
shabby, time-wise, shipped from England! Hopefully, I won't need
even a fraction of these tablets. Handy too, should I ever need to
visit the deepest, darkest parts of the African continent...
<Thank you for this note Mike. A bargain! Bob Fenner>
Re: Purple Tang
Mr. Fenner, thank you for taking the time to respond to my email. I
will contact National Fish Pharmaceuticals and order quinine unless you
know where it would be available in Canada.
Thanks again, Tracey
<"Time is of the essence", and unfortunately, I do not
know much re such availability "up north". Cheers, BobF, in
Egypt presently... yes, it's 3:46 AM>
Re: Decision re: Achilles Tang
transition, CP sourcing in Canada 3/11/10
Hi again Simon, can you tell me where I can get this med in Canada, my
lfs has no idea what I am talking about when I asked for Chloroquine
Phosphate, thanks for your help.
<Pardon my "cutting in" here Tracey. As Simon is in the
U.K. (and I'm a yank), I'll point you to the locations listed
on WWM. Please read here:
Alternatively, you may have success securing CP through a veterinary or
Treating main tank with quinine
sulfate(Crypto Pro) Quinine Treatment 2/16/2010
How's it going Mike? Crew?
Well I have taken Mike's advice and have started quinine treatment.
I have treated in the display. Turned off uv, skimmer and removed all
chemical filtration. I do still have substrate in my tank. Crushed
<Should be fine.>
I am confused on how to properly dose. The bottle says to treat daily
with 25% water changes. I contacted NationalFishpharm and Dr. Aukes
recommended treating once and leaving for 5-7 days.
<I agree with the doctor.>
Changing 25% every day seems quite expensive as far as salt is
<I would agree.>
I am currently laid off until spring and am lucky I was able to order
the Crypto Pro in the first place. Would you think treating once and
leaving for a week will eradicate the ich?
<Personally, with an infestation that was as strong as yours, I
would do two courses of treatment, of 5 to 7 days with a 25% water
change after each.>
I was worried about substrate adsorbing the quinine?
<No worries there, once the treatment is finished, just turn the
filtration on and start running carbon.>
I am sure this is a great medication it's just the instructions are
sketchy and in my personal opinion NationalFishPharm's support is
not the greatest.
<Sorry to hear that. This is actually the first I've heard
Re: Harlequin Tusk, hlth.
Quinine cpd. sources -- 11/03/09
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am interested in trying quinine
compounds to treat crypt. Do fish stores supply it or is it available
from drug stores?
What are some brands available? Thanks again.
<Can be procured through a human MD, veterinarian, or some specialty
etailers... Please read here:
Re: ich? copper not curing it
if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 12/27/08 Bob: Thank you very
much for your prompt response and advise, including a reply on Xmas day
- now that is absolute dedication that all of us WWM users can't
thank you enough for providing such wonderful "service".
<Welcome James> I did see this Chloroquine Phosphate treatment
protocol on WWM 4+ weeks ago when I first started researching how to go
about dealing with my sick fish. And I even tried to get my hands on
some of this stuff, but I kept running into websites that required
prescriptions.... So I decided to go the tried and true route of
copper, but now appreciate that I need to try this new method. This
morning, I was able to find a website that will send Chlor Phos without
an Rx - the URL for this site is as follows: http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s33577-s-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE.aspx
<Thank you very much for this> They charge approx $85 inclusive
of shipping for qty 100; 500mg tablets (or 50 grams). <Yeeikes! And
oh my! This is a BUNCH of material> I will execute the suggested
protocol of 20mg/l (or 3,780 mg for 50 gallons) on day 1, followed by
50% water change 7 days later and redose of 10mg/l (or 1,890 mg/50G)
repeated 2 more times after that (a total of 4 dosings). I also
understand the lighting should be kept off for the entire 1 month of
treatment. <Yes... thank you for this as well. Fellow WWM Crewmember
ScottV is visiting and we were just talking about the photosensitivity
of this compound> Should I at least keep a ceiling light turned on
for 10-12 hrs per day? <I would, yes> I will certainly let you
know how effective this treatment was for me in approx 7 weeks (it
takes up to 3 weeks for the CP tablets to be sent, since they are
coming from a pharmacy in India). <I see...> In the meantime (3
weeks or so till dosing begins), beyond good husbandry of constant
water changes (with siphoning bare bottom) and smart feedings (with
Selcon and / or Garlic), is there anything I need to do, to give these
guys the best chance of survival? <Mmm... I would not change
anything here really> They do not appear to be "sick"
beyond the obvious exterior visual signs of parasites. Meaning, they
are all eating vigorously, they are not going to the surface, they are
not breathing rapidly, or swimming erratically (beyond occasional
attempts to scratch themselves on PVC), etc. The only one I am a bit
concerned about is the PB Tang - his tail seems to be regenerating, but
is still missing a good 20% of volume. I am attaching a picture (this
time MaxiJet 1200 with venturi attachment turned off, so air bubbles
not present in pix). Lastly - I appreciate the use of CP to treat Ich
seems to be a fairly new practice, and therefore there may still be
some unknowns, including long term affects, etc, but I was hoping you
may have input to this question: can CP be used for incoming stock in
QT as a prophylactic measure? <Mmm, I don't know this, or much
else re CP either... I want to be clear, honest... as always... and
state that I have no (zip, zero) experience with this material... And
my current gung-ho attitude may be misleading others... I had just read
some accounts, including in the new disease tome by Bob Goemans and
Lance Ichinotsubo... and am hopeful... The cpd. is tried and true in
terms of efficacy with humans...> For guys like me that clearly
can't distinguish the tell tale signs of Ich (even after 4+ wks of
QT on all incoming stock) would the use of this medication possibly
help avoid a future infestation of MDT? As I am sure you can personally
appreciate, and have heard a 1000 times over from your dedicated
readers, no one wants to ever have to battle something like this more
than once...... Thanks again for your time, experience, passion and
dedication to helping your fellow aquarists! Sincerely, Jim <Again,
my ongoing thanks to you Jim... please do relate your further
experiences here. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: ich? copper not curing it
if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 1/11/09 Bob -
hotmail appears to be garbling this ethread pretty badly, but hopefully
below is not needed to support this question as it only requires yes or
no: The Chloroquine Phosphate tablets arrived from the pharmacy in
India yesterday. My question is - should I remove the carbon filled
filter media from top filter during treatment? <Yes> I don't
have a skimmer or any other form of filter (except 3 sponge filters) in
this 50G hospital tank. Thanks and I'll let you know how this works
for me in 4 weeks. <Thank you> Jim PS - I lost the power blue
tang to this "super ich" strain a few days ago. The rest of
them seem fine though. I started the "no light" part of this
treatment a couple days ago, just to see how they would behave / react
to feedings, etc. They seem very skittish with no light, but did eat
all the food I put in (from bottom of tank as opposed to how they
normally come right to feeding site at top of tank). Not sure how this
lack of light will affect them for 1 month? <As long as there is
some outside light the fishes will be fine... there are meteorological
events that make it very dark underwater, sometimes for weeks at a
time, in the wild> Sounds like many other hobbyists have done this
previously, so I guess they will be fine. <Yes. Steady on Jim.
Cleaning 11/17/08 Hi folks, <Elsie.> Well, it's been
two weeks since I tried to do a 100% water change on the QT tank and I
guess it didn't work because I think I see spots on the blue tang
and the Sailfin tang. So frustrating! <Tis frustrating.> Should I
try the copper again for two weeks, or should I try hyposalinity? Quick
Cure? <Do a Google search re Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the
web. Just safer, less toxic, this is the stuff to use here. It can be
hard to find, the "in the know" LFS now carry it, otherwise
do call a vet or check the web. One source:
Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.> Thanks
in advance Elise <Welcome, Scott V.>
Re: Ich Treatment/Quarantine
Cleaning 11/17/08 Scott, Thanks so much for your reply.
<Welcome.> I have never heard of the stuff before.
<Many...most have not.> I've been glued to my computer
digesting all the FAQ's on the subject. A couple of things I'm
wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as
opposed to quinine sulfate? <They are completely different
compounds.> The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that
phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a
form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc. <A pain, just
one source.> I will try calling some local vets. <Some will know,
others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too. A quick
explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.> Will the stuff
have any effect on biological filtration? <Supposedly not, I do have
my doubts, though have not quantified them.> I read that
person's post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50%
percent change, dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks. I am still
combating ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to
redose with each water change? <Yes, prorated of course.> Could
get pricey, no? <Comparative to other treatment and depending on the
source it could, but it works!> Thanks for your assistance, Scott,
I'm very anxious to try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs
suffer in the copper. <They do.> Elise <Scott
Re: Chloroquine Phosphate Use
Hello again Scott, I hope you won't mind me troubling you again
with a couple more questions.
<Hello Elsie, not at all.>
I have ordered some Chloroquine phosphate from
<Great resource! Thank you for this.>
I am starting to get nervous about using a chemical I can't test
<I know the feeling, no practical method for the home
The only procedure that I've been able to find on how to use the
stuff is the one described by a hobbyist on WWM's FAQ's: Start
with double dose of 20mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add
10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50%
water change and add 10mg/L one last time. Is this what you would
recommend, or would you do 10mg/L from the beginning, or a different
procedure entirely?<The basic procedure is fine, but I would start
with the 10mg/L dose. I have heard of some using the 20mg/L initially,
but the lower dosage is tried and true.>Do I need to keep treatment
going for a month?<I would, is the recommended protocol.>I think
I will be doing water changes pretty frequently because of ammonia, I
will have to carefully calculate how much CP to add, yes?<Yes.>If
my math is right, I would want 757mg for my 20 gallon tank (20
gallons=75.7 liters, 10mg/L is 757), and if I did a 50% water change I
would add 378mg. Do I have this right? <Yes.>Should I keep the
aquarium light off during treatment?<An important point I neglected
to mention previously. This compound is photosensitive. Do leave any
lights off.>OK, this is more than a couple of questions (sorry), but
after all the time, money, and energy I've put into saving these
fish, I really don't want to make any fatal mistakes
now.<Understood.>One last question (promise!) Is this medication
is a good idea for any type of marine fish in need of treatment for
crypt?<I have never heard of nor read about any contradictions to
use with fish.>I thank you again, and my fish thank you as
well!Elise <Welcome, do let us know how it goes. Scott
Chloroquine Phosphate Source
10/28/08 Hi Crew, <Matt.> Thanks for all you do for the
hobby! I have noticed recently on the 'dailies' that Bob is
very excited about the prospects of Chloroquine phosphate as a
treatment for Ich and the like. I was interested in finding out where
this medication may be available for future reference, so I did a bit
of googling (not sure that's a word lol) and found that it is the
active ingredient in a medication named Avlocor (in the UK at least).
Avlocor is an anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is obtainable
without a prescription at the following link -
-for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine
Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so
how much would an effective dose be? <It should work out fine. 10
mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can
be had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the
know" LFS keeping some on hand.> Thanks for your hard work and
commitment, Matt. <Welcome and thank you, Scott V.> <BTW,
thank you very much for sharing your finds. Scott V.>
Re: Chloroquine phosphate
Source 10/29/08 Hi Scott, <Hey there Matt.> Thanks for
the response. The cost of these tablets is Â£1.89 (~$3.10)
for a pack of 20, 250mg tablets. <Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo
much here in the U.S.> If my math is correct this works out at 3.7
pence (~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or
cheap as I am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks
it. <Tis cheap, for my area!> Maybe it's easier in the US
(I'm in the UK). <Is prescription as a drug from my
knowledge.> At 10mg/l recommended dosage, I presume the easiest way
to dose it would be to dissolve a 250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and
use this for start-up water in a hospital tank and subsequent water
changes. What do you think? <This could work, yes.> I also asked
about its use, in case there were any other ingredients in this
'designed for human's' tablet that would mal-affect fish
and/or inverts. Do you think there are? <Doubtful, more like fillers
and binders.> How effective would you consider this as a treatment
for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo? <Very effective in my
experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this drug is photo
sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.> Thanks for your
time, Matt. <Welcome, Scott V.>
Re: Ich Treatment
10/17/08 I have read the FAQs on Chloroquine and I placed a
order through an online company, but they called today and stated that
they cannot ship the item to a residential address. Do you have any
confirmed sites that can send the prescription without a Rx from a
doctor? Any suggestions would be appreciated. <I'd try your
local veterinarian. BobF>