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Help with a new Potter’s Angel
8/24/19 Centropyge potteri, sel., dis. f's 1/22/18 Sick Potter's Angel 1/7/13 Unknown ailment on Potter's angelfish.
7/19/12 potter's angel in qt 7/18/12 Potters Angel, rdg.... stkg./sel.
10/26/11
Potters Angel Color... loss, stress, env., bad
tankmates 3/15/10 Would it be beneficial to feed a Potter's Angel
Chaeto? 10/5/09 Potter's Angelfish in QT: Dwarf Angelfish QT\Feeding
7/20/2009 Potter's Angel Not Eating. 3/30/2009 Potter's Angel New Tank 11/17/08 Hi for like the fifth time in...what, three days? Ok, so I got the e-mail back saying that I should make the new tank a priority. Would my angel be ok in a 55g? 75? Does it REALLY absolutely NEED at least 100g? <Ideally, for the best chance of survival, the more room/rock the better.> The 150g+ tank a sort of goal of mine, sure, but not something I could plausibly make a priority. Remember, I get $10 a week in allowance. And I'm 15. There aren't very many jobs for 15-year-olds out there that I could even bear considering. <There are ways to earn extra cash. Mowing lawns, washing cars, heck even writing for the trade.> My mom doesn't help, either, with her insistence that I make "finishing" THIS tank a priority BEFORE starting on a new one. <Sound judgment.> So, how much does a 100g cost, and how much for the equipment? <It can really vary, do look for used systems in Craigslist or the paper. Great deals can be found.> I really want to follow your advice, but I just don't know how long it will take. I mean, I have school and other stuff...it's not like I can suddenly just drop out in order to raise money for a new tank. It would probably be a more realistic goal to get all the equipment needed to make my angel as comfortable as possible in the aquarium I have right now (within reason, of course). WITH that in mind, what would you suggest? <I do not know, your previous correspondence is not attached. From what is implied here, I would just look for a more suitable home for the fish, get one down the road when your larger system is well established.> I was thinking of maybe some more live rock, like Fiji branch rock, to go with the three large pieces of Tonga rock that I have in there right now. Or would a different type of live rock be better? <Any live rock will do, regular Fiji being the mainstay and my choice.> Anything else? Please tell me!! I ish really worried!! :-; <Nothing that is not posted on WWM re this fish. Scott V.> http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pottersangel.htm Centropyge potteri starving in QT 09/29/08 Hi Crew,
<Daphne> Thank you kindly for all the wonderful information you
have posted on your site. It is greatly appreciated. I hope you might
be able to help me with a problem I caused through my own error. Error
#1: I purchased a Centropyge Potteri, and a young adult, no less (they
had no juveniles). I realized after I got home and researched your site
a bit more, that it is a very difficult species to keep. <Yes,
usually> Error #2: The LFS claimed he would eat flakes, <... even
if so, won't sustain> but I failed to ask them to feed him in
front of me, so I had no proof he was eating. At home, I put the angel
in my 10 gallon quarantine tank, <Small> with bare bottom,
shelter, Eheim power filter, temp 79 degrees, good water quality (no
ammonia, nitrites or nitrates) <Not for long> and lighting. My pH
is a bit low at 78, <7.8 is very low... this is a base 10
logarithmic expression...> but extremely stable and I understand
that stable is more important than having exactly 82, so I don't
mess with it. My potteri would not eat flake, pellets, Nori, frozen
Mysis, or Caulerpa, and there is no seaweed or live rock in the QT.
After three days of not eating at all, I saw him scratch on his
shelter, and on closer inspection I saw a small whitish patch (1/2 cm)
on one pectoral fin, and a couple of very tiny gold speckles (on the
same fin) that could have been velvet. So I went back to the LFS and
bought Cupramine. <Mmm, I STRONGLY encourage you to quickly read up
on Chloroquine Phosphate use instead... very effective for most
flagellate and ciliate issues in this setting (FO, no algae present)...
Copper in all formats is toxic to degrees, more so with certain groups
of fishes... in this case, part. Angels> I have been doing daily 50%
water changes during treatment, and at the same time, trying to keep
the copper levels around 0.25, but the API Copper test is very hard for
me to read as the colour strips for 0ppm and .25ppm are almost exactly
the same colour. <Am NOT a fan of strip testing... see WWM re if
you'd care> Do you know if the test by Red Sea is any easier to
read, <I know that you should switch treatment moda period> and
if it would be worthwhile to purchase this additional test kit? <Not
so IMO> The worse problem is that it has now been 8 days since I had
the angel and he still will not eat any foods I offer him, even when
they are soaked in Entice. I tried scraping some hair algae off my
equipment in my display tank (because I read that angels enjoy
filamentous algae), but he was not interested in that, either. I even
tried siphoning a small amount of detritus from my main tank into the
QT to see if he would bite. <Good techniques, trials> His belly
is beginning to sink in, and today I noticed a small fray in the back
of his dorsal fin as well. So now he has fin rot? <...
symptomatic... root cause? Improper setting/env... species> Or just
a side effect of being stressed from having ich, copper treatments and
no food? <Much more so, yes> I feel like I am losing this battle.
How long will it be before this angel is irreversibly damaged or killed
by malnutrition? <Days likely> Is it possible that the stress
from being ill and being treated with copper is contributing to his
hunger strike? <Of a certainty, yes> If so, is there anything I
can do to relieve his stress? <Remove the copper, proffer some live
rock, risk moving this animal (trough a dip/bath, see WWM re) into the
DT... Ask the shop/LFS to take it back...> Should I leave tank
lights off? Also, the LFS does not seem to know if cyanide was used in
his capture, but since he could only come from Hawaii, <Is a
Hawaiian endemic... not cyanided> I do not think this was a factor.
I think it is an unfortunate cycle where the stress makes him sick and
the sickness gives him stress, and the whole thing makes him not eat,
causing more stress.... Thank you for your patience and help! Daphne
<Mmm... read on WWM re Centropyge spp., Protozoans and Copper if
you'd like... but I'd be either trying to return this fish,
moving it, or switching to the Chloroquine... Stat. Bob Fenner> Potters angel breeding
6/1/08 Hi my name is Michael De Giovanni a
marine aquarist and a amateur marine biologist. I am hoping to get some
info on how to get potters angels to breed. I am going to be starting a
scientific study within a few weeks to attempt to document their
breeding in a home aquarium. Your book by the way The Conscientious
Marine Aquarist is a amazing guide that was a cornerstone to get me
into the hobby. This study I hope would get me a scholarship into a
college to get a masters degree in marine biology. I thank you for any
info or help you can provide. Sincerely, Michael De Giovanni <I have
observed this species many times in Hawai'i' evidently engaging
in reproductive behavior. My brief survey article and link (above) to
our FAQs re can be found here: http://wetwebmedia.com/pottersangel.htm
Is there something in particular I may be able to help you with? Bob
Fenner> Potter's Angel/Acclimation 11/7/07 Hello Crew, <Hello whomever you are.> I bought a Potter's Angel <Please cap names of fish and invertebrates along with "i's" in future queries. Saves us much time if we do not have to edit.> from a good LFS about a week and a half ago and he seems to be doing very well. I asked how long he was at the store and they said that he has been at the store for 6 weeks with out any problems and eats frozen foods, flakes etc. I also saw it eating off the bottom of the tank. I didn't know a lot about the C. potteri when I was there but assumed they were similar to the other dwarf angels. The guy at the store said that once acclimated they would be just as hardy as any other dwarf angel and just as easy. He also knew that I am not an expert. So I trusted the guy and bought the angel at a very fair price. <You may be one of the lucky ones. The Potter's Angel (Centropyge potteri) is one of the more difficult angels to keep from this family.> The angel is about 3 inches long with great coloring. He has been in my DT for a week and a half and has been eating Formula 2 pellets since day two. I did not QT him because I read online that they should not be QTed. <?> After the fact, I wish I would have. Anyways, since he is already eating prepared food like a pig (more than my 2 Ocellaris Clowns that he shares the 75g with) and shows no signs of distress (he swims in and out of the LR all day pecking at the sand and LR) What are my chances that this guy will have a relatively long term success? <Based on my experience, long term, I'd say 50/50.> I have about 80lbs of LR but not a huge amount of algae growth (except diatoms), but he does eat everything I put into the tank. If he needs live algae, is there any macro algae I can buy that he would eat? <I'd supplement with gut filled brine shrimp by Hikari along with Ocean Nutrition's freeze dried algae sheets. My False Lemon Peel readily takes to these and he has been around for a couple of years now.> Also, I read in your C. potteri FAQs that they would do well with any other Hawaiian fish species... I know Kole Tangs live around some Hawaiian Islands, but would this be a bad choice since they both eat algae? I wanted to get another centerpiece fish like a Tomini or Kole Tang. <Your tank is a little too small for keeping tangs as most can grow over 6" in captivity. Read here and linked files above on tangs. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zebrasom.htm> I want to provide only the best for this guy and I admit mistake for not fully understanding the needs of this fish. It is a great specimen and I want to do anything I can to keep him healthy and happy. Any input would be appreciated. <Also read here and linked files above on this family of fish. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/ James (Salty Dog)>
Potters Angel <Lawnmower Blenny and Catalina Gobies> in
Possible Danger Related to Lack of Research. Howdy! <Hey
there!> I'm not sure where to start, so
I'll start from the top and be very verbose (my apologies)....
<No apologies my friend.> 2 months ago I
set up a brand new "NanoCube 24" by JBJ (24 gal) with about
30 pounds of live rock, and 2 bags of live sand. The rock
came from a friends 75gal, which he had for 6 years. There
is about 16 gal of water in the tank (at a guess) and it has been doing
fantastic. <OK.> I let it cycle for about 3 weeks,
then inserted my test pilot, a small Yellow Tail Damsel, who also did
great. <Not the most ideal means of cycling a
tank. Please read here for future reference:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm >
The following week, the insanity overtook me, and I had a trio of
Catalina Gobies, 5 different button corals, and few very pretty
mushrooms delivered. <Mmm, yes, insanity and
impatience. My, this is not a good mix. Catalina
Gobies (Lythrypnus dali) are a cool water species, preferring water
temps between 64-71 F. Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/lythrypnus.htm
Your corals are found in tropical waters. An appropriate
temperature would be around 78-79 F.> The mushrooms were
in baaaad shape, most having detached from their strata and curled into
spit wads. <Is that the technical term?> Currently, 1
is doing great, 2 are doing ok, and the other 2 are loses.
<See temperature suggestion above and below.> The button corals
have their days where they are wide open, and their days where they are
partially open.... <See temperature reference above and below.>
At this point, all of the fish were doing
great. Some hermit crabs and snails were added to help with
some algae, eventually swelling to 16 crabs (tiny blue legs, zebra,
Scarlets, and some normal Mexican red legs), and about 12 snails of
various kinds (the Turbo snails will be exiting the tank in a day or 2,
due to their constant tossing of my corals). <A lot of crabs and too
many snails for such a small system. High likelihood of
starvation for the snails.> 2 weeks
ago I inherited a Lawnmower Blenny from a friend, and he too is doing
well, though I have never seen a blenny swim freely so
much... <He's probably hungry.> He seems to eat
well, and everyone gets along. <The minimum recommended tank size is
55 gallons for a Lawnmower Blenny (Salarias fasciatus). The
Blenny may starve in systems that are not well established or have
insufficient algae growth. Your system is too small and too
new to be an appropriate home for this fish. I would try to
find a more appropriate home for this fish.> A small peppermint
shrimp also came with the blenny. <OK.>
4 days ago, my girlfriend heard me say
"That is a beautiful fish. I wouldn't mind getting
one at some point, like when I have a 75..." at which
point she wandered off to look at the puppies. When I got
home from work the following evening, she surprised me with that
beautiful Potters Angel acclimating in his bag in my 24! I
was delighted, yet also totally freaked out. I called the
pet store, and they wouldn't take him back. Now, they
had him for 2 months, and he has done better than any other Angel (save
a little Eiblii they had). I took about 2 hours to acclimate
him, and during the transfer from bag to tank, my dog barked, which
surprised both me and the fish. He became tangled in the net
due to that gill spike, and it took me about 2 minutes to extricate him
with very small scissors snipping the net. <Aye!>
Since then, he has been very active in
the tank, and was nipping at the glass, rocks, and strands of algae the
very next morning. I've recently done a profusion of
reading, and I am in fear that he won't last in my little
24. So far, he seems very happy, but only eats off of the
rocks, and occasionally nibbles at the dried seaweed I clip
in. No one chases anyone around, and it is a very peaceful
tank with everyone mingling and swimming about, including the
Potters. I change out about 2-3 gallons every 3 days, using
RedSea for my salts. and the daily temperature beings at 72*F in the
morning, at is usually at 75.5*F in the evening when I turn off the
light. <This water temperature and its fluctuation is
less than ideal for your system, best to keep temps stable and warmer,
78-79 F.> I've been able to keep "perfect" water
quality, with almost nonexistent Nitrite and Nitrate, and the KH is at
the optimum level. My question is... what
can I do to keep this fish happy and alive? <Actually
the Potter's Angel (Centropyge potteri) is the most appropriate
fish you currently have in your tank. I would try offering
some well-rinsed frozen foods soaked in Selcon several times a
day. The problems lie with the Blenny and Gobies. Your
system is not an appropriate home for either. The gobies do
not belong in your system. They require a cool water
setup. The gobies need to be relocated to an appropriate
cool water home. The blenny should be kept in a larger more
established tank.> I've called a few stores in the
area, and the only one willing to take him off of my hands will only
take him for free. I'd hate to break my wonderfully
misguided gals heart by giving her gift away, and I do like the Potters
so.... Any advice or help would be GREATLY
appreciated. <Your girl seems to have done more homework regarding
appropriate choices for you system than you have my
friend. She is not as misguided as you may
think. Her selection is more appropriate than your selection
of a Lawnmower Blenny and Catalina Gobies. Your water
temperature should be higher and more consistent. You have
too many snails and quite a few hermits which will compete with the
angel for algae. Please do more research before making
purchases. The lives of these amazing creatures are solely
in your hands. You may want to consider a book by Robert M.
Fenner titled "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" to help you
on your journey. I think you will find it most
helpful. It is a book I continuously
reference. It is money well
spent. Thank you,
Darby <Welcome. -Mich> Angel... life 1/20/07 Hi <And to you> 3 weeks ago I purchased a beautiful potters angelfish from my LFS. <Am out in this Centropyges native haunt as we key... Not an easy species to keep> I have her in a 53 litre tank <Yikes... less than 20 gallons... Much too small, unsuitable...> (I will upgrade to a 3 foot soon as she is only 4 cm) with roughly 5 kg.s of live rock and a few pieces of coral. <Very small chance it will live...> Ever since I purchased the fish it has been eating fine accepting every food I give it. I just went on a week long holiday and got another marine owner to feed my fish. When I arrived today I noticed a cloudy patch almost covering her whole left gill :( I have raised the temperature to 28 degrees Celsius and lowered the salinity to 1.020 <I would not do this...> the ammonia is at 0 same with nitrates. Should I add copper, <... Please read on WWM... search tool, indices re Pomacanthids and copper exposure... again, not a good idea> is it anything to worry about, should I do frequent water changes, do I need to add MelaFix or Methylene blue, <For what?> should I give it a fresh water dip, should I move it to my main tank or just see what happens. Sorry about all the questions but this is a 200$ fish and I do not want to see it perish no matter the cost involved. Please help, sorry about all the questions it is just you guys seem to know everything! From Joe <Read Joe... what you seek, and much more that you're likely unaware of that is of use, interest re this species, your situation is posted on WWM... for your perusal. This species needs much larger, more stable circumstances... no hyposalinity or copper... or tea mix... Bob Fenner> Pale Potter's Angel 12/23/06 Hi Crew, Thanks for your site, it has saved me many headaches. I have a 46g aquarium with over 80 lbs. of LR and 40 lbs. of LS. <And forty pounds of water?! Heeeeee, about five gallons? About all the room left!> The temp stays around 80, ammonia and nitrite are at 0, and nitrate stays under 5 ppm. I have had a Potter's Angel for over three months. <A good "benchmark" amount of time...> I feed a mixed diet of mysis, brine, Nori, emerald entree, pygmy angel formula, and I use a garlic additive in one of the two daily feedings. The only other fish is a fairy wrasse. Everything has been fine until my angel turned pale (about 2 weeks ago) and now constantly tries to be cleaned by the wrasse. <Interesting... perhaps sees the Cirrhilabrus as a Labroides phthirophagus...> It doesn't seem to breathe rapidly but sometimes swims erratically. I did a 10 minute freshwater dip, and didn't see anything in the bottom of the bucket. <Might be clear, could be naught> Later I added a skunk cleaner shrimp. <Good> My angel gets cleaned often and still eats well, but its colors remain washed out. What should my next plan of action be? Thanks, Jeff <Mmm... really... a much larger setting. I suspect the small space is a problem, if not THE problem here. You've read my bit on this Centropyge?: http://wetwebmedia.com/pottersangel.htm and the linked files above? Need more habitat... and what generally comes with such. I do encourage you to "expand" your and its horizons... consider making a Hawaiian habitat. Bob Fenner> PottersAngFAQs 12/15/06 <Hello there Ron, Mich here.> I sent an email to this site awhile ago regarding success with a potters angel , this is just a follow up, it's going on 18 months now and he's still doing great. <Terrific!> I decided to send a follow up when I noticed that you guys were getting a lot of emails regarding this beauty. <Thank you for your observation and for the follow up. It is always helpful when others share what has worked and what hasn't worked. Nice to hear success stories too!> My original email was sent as just a tid bit, Thanks Ron <Our thanks to you, -Mich> http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pottersangfaqs.htm Saltwater fish 11/16/06 Hi WWM crew! I have a 125 gallon tank and in it I have: 1. two cleaner shrimp 2. one coral beauty 3. one orange star fish 4. one sea slug 5. numerous corals: SPS and LPS 6. one red sea purple tang 7. 100 lbs of live rock: some Fiji, Tonga, and Melanesian I want to add a Potter's Angel fish and I am aware of the care requirements needed to sustain this fish. <Oh! Happen to be out in HI where this fish almost exclusively hails from... and we have a brief article, specialized FAQs files re this Centropyge on WWM> My tank has been up and running with live rock for about 2 years. Every time I add a new fish, I quarantine it for about 1 month. Do you think I can add the Potters Angel to my tank? Thanks Ryan Forsman <Mmm, well, not the easiest species to keep... but can be done, and there are no strong negatives concerning the other life listed above. Please do read what we have posted on WWM re. Bob Fenner> Feeding Potter Angel 9/12/06 Hi WetWebMedia Crew, <Hi> Good morning. <Good evening now> I acquired a 1.5 inch potter 3 weeks ago, he is in QT now and is eating flake and pellets. Of late, I have been trying to wean him over to Mysis shrimp but the guy won't touch it. Tried starving him for a day but he still won't touch the Mysis. <Unusual, the problem is more often getting them to eat pellets and flakes and more "natural" foods like Mysid are easier.> I want him to feed strong and on all kinds of food before I transfer him to the display tank. <Good procedure.> Any idea to make the transition to frozen food less painful? Thanks and the team has been very helpful in the past! <Have you tried soaking the food in either Selcon or garlic extract. For me I find garlic's only benefit is it does seem to stimulate the feeding response, although I prefer using Selcon since it also adds some nutritional benefit. Otherwise fast him for 2-3 days and then try feeding, as long as he is otherwise healthy this length of time will not hurt him and may help encourage feeding.> <Chris> Centropyge breeding tank set up/egg collection Hello, I have
been doing a lot of research lately on this subject before I begin
investing more money than I already have into it. <Good> I would
like to try breeding a couple different species of dwarf angels, namely
Flames and Potter's to start. I know what's supposed to be in
the tank and tank size and proper nutrition of the breeding pair. I am
doing research on larval food with the help of my college's Bio.
Dept (which has an obscene number of marine biologists and
Ichthyologists for not having a marine biology program heheh)...
<Ah, the public trough/ivory tower... I miss it so> ...and the
local Marine Institute with some tips from my LFS here and there as
well. My question comes because its one thing I have been unable to
find anywhere else. <Is this Anglish?> How do I get the fragile
eggs from the breeding tank to the rearing tank without harming them. I
know they float due to the drop of oil in them. I have thought about an
overflow into a sump tank with an appropriately sized screen to
separate them from the workings of it, but if I go that route will the
eggs suffer any damage from riding the rapids down to that tank?
<Likely so... many facilities for aquaculture utilize quite large,
fine screens... relatively low flow rates... so the eggs don't get
too agitated... and rinse the eggs off the screen, floating them, and
either siphon or "dip" them from the surface... or grow the
young out in place, removing the broodstock> Net scoop them out with
a plankton net? <Could> Any help in this matter would be greatly
helpful, thanks. In addition if you know off hand by chance the
micro-organisms that larval angels will eat, smaller than rotifers, it
would take some serious travel time off my schedule. Thanks, Mike
<Do you read German? Have folks there who do/can? I encourage you to
peruse this title:
Nachzuchten für das Korallenriff-Aquarium and the
references you'll find. You know of the work of Frank Hoff? Frank
Baensch? Bob Fenner> Centropyge Potteri (Second name of species always in lowercase, mate) Centropyge potteri 11/3/05 Hi Bob, it's Ron from your native R.I, <Hi Ron, actually not Bob with you tonight, Adam J.> I picked up a Potter's angel about six weeks <<Proper name, capitalized, possessive means an apostrophe is to be used before the 's'. MH>> <That's a tough one.> <<Possessive, use apostrophe before 's'.>> ago and it's doing very well by itself in a 20 gallon tank with a refugium and skimmer on the tank. I know this fish will need a larger system soon <Yes.> and my 75 gallon tank is already full with a flame angel that is two years old. My question is to keep this potters (Potter's) healthy could I put him in a 30 gallon tank with maybe one two other fish. <In that size tank I would leave him alone, even then this fish require at least a 55-gallon tank as an adult with lots of LR to roam, that refugium you mentioned is a great asset to this fish as well.> I really believe it's doing so well because of the refugium and natural setting I have provided, I kept two others some time ago one faded away slowly the other was lost to a power head when the prefilter fell off. , what's the best way to go with this guy. Thanks Ron <Adam J.> Just a tid bit... re Success with Centropyge potteri - 05/13/2006 I wrote to you guys a while ago about keeping a Potters angel, and do realize that this is not an easy fish to keep. Just wanted to say that it's going on ten months now and this fish is doing wonderful. <Ah, good> I really believe that adding a refugium and setting up the tank with live rock and good lighting made the difference with this guy. His colors are unbelievable. the other thing that I think was important is to give this fish a lot of room, he's in a 75 gallon tank and no other dwarf angels, I just hope he stays healthy for a long time. wanted to pass this along to others Ron. <Thank you for this. You have likely saved many individuals of this Centropyge species. Bob Fenner> Potters Angel/Behavior 3/14/06 Dearest Bob, <Dearest James today.> I happily stumbled across your site today when I began perusing for info on my little Potter's Angel ongoing saga. Many kudos to you for helping out those of us less informed! <You're welcome.> We bought the little guy (only about 1 1/2 inches) about a month ago from a wonderfully informative and reliable fish store down the street. <I'm guessing you are new at this so I'm questioning just how informative your dealer is. Did he know you were new at this, and what size tank the angel would be going into?> We had done much research on saltwater fish keeping, and Angels, but not Potter's Angels in particular, and now I see that he has a rather precarious future ahead of him in captivity. Yes, not a real easy fish to keep under your conditions.> We brought him home to his own tank (cycled with live rock and some clams and crabs). No other fish, as we knew that he was territorial. We did (and do not) plan on keeping any other fish in the tank, but with bad luck of temperature change (faulty thermometer), he developed a fuzzy spot on his suddenly frayed thin. It was at this point, we discovered that our 3 gallon tank was WAY too small for him. <You needed to do a lot more research than you did.> I thought bacteria, but was advised that that saltwater tanks are not prone to this. <News to me.> When he did not improve the next day, I moved him and his few buddies to our 6 gallon tank (I know, still too small, and I am currently saving for the 24 gallon down the street) <The 24 will be too small.> and was advised to add Prevent-Ich by Kordon. Did that, and the (seemingly) fungus spot disappeared and fin regrew (yippee!!). When my husband became bothered a couple of days later by an Aiptasia, he got two peppermint shrimp, which our Potter promptly shooed into a hole in the crevice (although, they seem to have done their job). Now, none of the previous fin, or spot symptoms have returned, but I do notice that his color is decreased. Slightly pale. Should I be worried about this? Should I be feeding him something besides marine flakes and mysis shrimp? <Should be feeding a variety of foods including algae and enriched with a vitamin supplement.> Should I return the peppermint shrimp? Should I have quarantined them? <That's up to you. Do search the Wet Web on quarantining.> Additionally, he still does these sort of mad dash flicking sessions at the live rock. Some might call it rubbing, but he goes full speed at a part of the rock and then does a whip turn against it (he is so fast, I can not quite tell if he touches the rock, but he actually makes a whip sound that I can hear outside of the tank-he is that fast!). <Sounds to me like he is infested with ich.> He repeats this cycle about 4-10 times, and then returns to his merry swimming. Other than that those two things, he seems in normal spirits again. Should I be worried? He is my priority, not the shrimp or any other fish, so can you advise? <Jaime, you need to know much more about what you are buying. Do search/read/learn. I'd be taking the angel back, not the shrimp. This fish isn't going to last long in that six gallon tank.> Thank you so much for your time! Best, and many thanks. <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)> Jaime Potter's Angel 3/11/05 Still a relative newbie to things aquatic and need help ASAP w/ a Potter's Angel purchased 4 days ago from reputable LFS. <hmmm... a difficult angel overall... does poorly in new/young community tanks... and is dearly in need of a proper 4 week QT period before putting into displays to train them to feed strong> My first tank...Have a 46 gallon tank w/ two small percula clowns and a sixline wrasse all who have done beautifully since introduction 6 months ago and continue to thrive. <careful with that wrasse... very territorial> Have about 35 pounds of nicely encrusted live rock. 2 scarlet hermits and various snails. A modest hang on tank skimmer running that seems to be doing the job w/ my modest bio load. I now know that the Potter's was the wrong choice for a relative beginner such as myself... but I guess I didn't do enough pre purchase research. <it is very difficult indeed. It is unlikely to survive one year if even six months for you. Do take note if this is so (or not) either way. Perhaps a hard lesson.> I seem to have a curse trying to add fish #4. Royal Gramma died within a week of introduction about 4 months ago. <lack of QT again and a very poor choice mixing Atlantic fishes with Pacific. Asking for an Ich outbreak <G>> Gave it about 6 weeks, added a Firefish and found him half eaten one morning only days after introduction. <the wrasse likely harassed/killed it at night. Bad mix> (Also lost an Emerald crab about 3 weeks ago.) Waited about 6 weeks, since losing the Firefish and added this Potter's-about 3 inches long. (Water parameters all check out fine including calcium and alkalinity) <please read, understand and apply the use of quarantine tanks> First few days went fine until this morning when I noticed he was not swimming out of the corner and his bright yellow fin on his side is half ripped off! <*cough*... *wrasse*... *cough*> He is obviously struggling to swim and from my limited knowledge, I think his outlook looks grim. Can it be the little wrasse as the culprit? <does a bear bring a Reader's Digest into the woods?> I didn't observe any aggressive behavior but if it was disease, wouldn't I see it on the other fin or tail as well? What to do?! <QT, QT, QT please> Can he be saved? <pull the fish into a spacious isolation tank, add vitamins with B12 (Vita-Chem or the like).. also get some Beta Glucan from GNC, and perhaps vitamin E for food/water> Do I try to catch him? Bring him back to LFS? <surely will kill it> Once a fin is torn as badly as this is, can it heal? <easily... with vitamin E and with HUFA/lipid rich foods (Selcon)> Am I seriously cursed? <bad husbandry... you can learn :)> Should I not be adding any more fish besides these 3 little guys? Help Please. MUCH Thanks... <get thee to QT :) Anthony> Help w/ Potters angel-Quick! 3/11/05 Thank you for your quick reply Anthony... got myself a QT and some treatments for it... <ah, great!> ...but woke up to see the poor Potter's had died. <sorry to read of it my friend> An expensive mistake for me and what's worse, I feel awful about the little guy. <understood... but the sacrifice is not in vain. I am sure your husbandry will improve for the happening and other creatures will fare better for it> That being said, I have tried earnestly to find species that ARE indeed compatible with the 6 line wrasse (he may be a tough, but he oozes personality and is very beautiful to boot...would hate to trade him in.) A lot of info says they are compatible with quite a few popular species but my wrasse is clearly not typical? <indeed... oddballs and exceptions do occur... they haven't read the books we have to know how they should behave ;)> So the question is please advise on colorful and HARDY species (perhaps only Chromis will do at this point? or are there others?) <you need active and aggressive community fishes that stay small> I only planned on adding 2 more fish to (have a total of 5) and I will consider the tank well stocked. <many possibilities... all to be supervised closely for that wrasse (Grr). And have that QT ready if needed: options - sunburst Anthias.. tobacco or harlequin Basslet... yellow watchman goby (blue spots)... Chromis damsels perhaps... hamlets... dwarf eel (Hawaii)> My LFS is obviously giving me wrong compatibility info since they sold me the Gramma, Firefish and Potter's! <yes... poor choices for the age/nature of the tank. They would have done best by you to recommend a QT tank before all. Anthony> Potter's Angel Hi, all, Thanks to Bob for his quick reply
yesterday about possible disease on a potter's angel at my LFS.
Moving on to potter's angels in general, WetWebMedia's
information on them lists them as very difficult fish; I was curious
specifically what the experience with them was. Scott Michaels actually
lists them as hardy as any of the Centropyge. <He's wrong here.
Less than one percent live more than a couple of months from
capture> However, word of mouth indicates that are one of the
touchier Centropyge species but I was curious as to just how touchy. In
your FAQs, there are hints that these fish seem to do well and then
just keel over. I'm familiar with two kinds of "touchy"
when it comes to fish: the basic type where the fish just never does
well from day one (like leopard wrasses ;-) and the second kind where
they may seem to be doing reasonably well but long term there is a
chance they will drop dead for little apparent reason or go into
irreversible decline after seeming to do well for months. <This
species falls into both categories> I had thought that the
potter's fell into the first category but your FAQ suggests but
isn't explicit that it is more the latter. I ask specifically
because the fish we discussed yesterday seems to be behaving quite well
(active grazing, aggressive eating of Mysids and Formula II) which
suggests that he will probably make it short term but if the risk with
these fish is more long term health, that doesn't necessarily mean
anything. I've kept a number of Centropyge in the past (argi,
fisheri, flame, coral beauty and others) but never a potter's so I
have no direct experience with them. Marc <Once again, hopefully
with more clarity. If there was a person to take on this apparently
very good specimen, it's you Marc. Bob Fenner> Potter's Angel Problems... Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. <My pleasure! Scott F. here again today!> I have a couple more questions, so I'll cut down your reply: I'm using an aquarium pharmacy tap water filter (you know, the big tube thing with carbon, and green stuff that turns to blue) as my source. I assume this is a DI unit. <Yep> BTW, do I need to always use this to make new water, or will tap water in a bucket suffice? I've been erring on the side of caution and always using the filter for source water. <I'd continue with that practice...Quality source water is a key to long-term success> I checked the water coming out of the filter, and, the output of the alkalinity/hardness test (good thing I was in PetSmart and bought one of these yesterday, purely by accident :) was: hardness 25 ppm alk 20 ppm So I assume I need to add buffering. <Deionized water does need some buffering, due to it's inherent instability (lack of carbonate hardness)> <Ok, how do I do that? Arm and Hammer, SeaChem 8.3? I'd tend to use the commercial product for this. SeaChem and some other companies make "reconstitution" products to stabilize purified water.> B) Given that both eyes are cloudy, although not at the same time, how long do I wait before I have to assume it's disease, and what else should I look for? <I would not give it more than a week. Keep on the lookout for other potential problems/symptoms, like "scratching" behaviors, excessive amounts of body slime or mucus, "shimmying", clamped fins, or any other signs that something is not right> <I wouldn't wait too much longer, frankly. I'd keep up the water quality and monitor for a few more days, before beginning treatment> <That sounds fine to me> Ok, should I remove the live rock in the QT to the display tank before treatment, or just assume I'm going to lose it from the medication (the display tank is fallow). <Well- a minor correction here...Do not put live rock, sand, or other natural materials in a quarantine or hospital tank. They can "absorb" (for want of a better word) medications, making it difficult to maintain proper therapeutic levels. Also, these items have no place in a quarantine tank, for many of the same reasons. A quarantine or hospital tank is not a permanent feature, and should be broken down after each use. I wrote a piece on the quarantine process that's on the WWM site and which was in the March issue of FAMA, which may answer some of your questions on this> c) Are Epsom salts warranted yet? <Sounds like you're dealing with a disease, rather than injury, so I don't think that Epsom salts are the best course of action here> Ironically, the buffering in the tank is 300 ppm. Maybe I shouldn't have changed the filter so soon. <Keep monitoring the water chemistry, and adjust as you need it> Thanks for all of your help and encouragement. I'll let you know how it comes out. Rob <Please do, Rob- I'm sure that things are going to go just fine! Keep up the good work! Regards, Scott F> Potter's In Peril? Hi again, crew <Hi there! Scott F. here today!> thanks for your response. The Potter's seems to be eating its angel food and grazing off the live rock. <Good to hear that> In response to your reply: A) I put the live rock in based upon the QT setup in Michael Paletta's book. I even let the QT cycle (stupid newbie, I know :) b) Fishbase didn't help me with determining the sex of the potter. Since there were pictures of just brown potters, and ornate potters, I'm going to assume that since my Potter's is ornate, it's a male. <Well, according to several texts I've read, the most reliable external indicator is that males seem to have more blue> But, I have a more important matter. Last Thursday (3/27), I noticed that the left eye was getting white and puffy. After reading through your excellent website about Popeye/cloudy eye, that it could be caused by a) running into things (sort of like a black eye in humans) b) poor water conditions c) disease. Please correct me if I'm wrong! <Nope- you got it right...!> The next day, the other eye started to puff (although not as bad). <Hmm...sounds like Popeye, perhaps?> I had been removing salt and adding fresh in an effort to turn the QT into a low salinity quarantine, especially after reading about how susceptible these fish are to ich, velvet, etc. (BTW, what are your thoughts on that?) <I think that hyposalinity is a potentially effective preventative/treatment for parasitic diseases (Paletta also touches on this in his book, BTW). I'm not convinced of it's effectiveness on bacterial or fungal diseases. Just my opinion, of course, but I'd prefer more "traditional" methods. Potters, like many Centropyge species, are susceptible to the gamut of parasitic and fungal diseases. They require highly stable water conditions, and a varied, healthy diet. Stability is very important> From my notes: 3/20 added Potter's Angel, performed H20 change every 3 days of approx 1 gallon (QT is 15 gallons) to reduce salinity) <Good procedure, if you're using this technique. Changes should always be made gradually> 3/27 (after I noticed the puffiness): Replaced Biomatrix filter (polyester/carbon) 3/28:temp 79 ph 8.0 (yikes!) ammonia > 0.8 mg/l (yikes!) nitrite > 1.0 mg/l (yikes!) nitrate ~ 20 mg/l S.G. 1.018 3/30: temp 80 ph 8.1 S.G. 1.015 ammonia 0.4 mg/l nitrite 0.8 mg/l nitrate 20 mg/l 3/31 (6 hrs after 5.5 gallon H20 change, 50% salt, 50% fresh): temp 77 S.G. 1.015 PH 8.0 (yikes!) Didn't do all the tests this morning because I was in a rush to get to work. I added a little less than a teaspoon of SeaChem 8.3 marine buffer. Haven't done any tests tonight. <It's good that you're testing regularly...> So, my questions are: a) I assume this is a combination eye contusion/water quality issue. What do I do to fix it? Will adding the SeaChem/doing partial water changes every day or so will help. <Well, as mentioned previously, stability of water parameters, including pH, is of great importance with these fish. I'd take whatever measures are necessary to assure stability. Is your source water buffered to an acceptable pH? Just a thought...> b) Given that both eyes are cloudy, although not at the same time, how long do I wait before I have to assume it's disease, and what else should I look for? <I wouldn't wait too much longer, frankly. I'd keep up the water quality and monitor for a few more days, before beginning treatment> c) Are Epsom salts warranted yet? <Epsom salts are effective if you're dealing with an injury (usually in one eye). If it's in both eyes, it's likely Popeye, and requires medication to treat, IMO> And, finally, what happened to cause the tank chemistry to get so out of whack (so I can avoid this happening again if it's the root cause). <I'm going to hazard a guess...Perhaps the biofilter was not fully established yet (hence the measurable ammonia and nitrite levels)...Really hard to say...The other thought is that the source water is not buffered sufficiently (RO/DI?)...> Again, I'm a newbie, so be gentle in your answers :) I'm just trying to learn/fix my mistakes. Rob <Rob, you're doing fine, questioning and learning...I'm pretty certain that you'll keep doing the right thing with this fish...Good luck! Regards, Scott F> Centropyge Angel Concern Yo... would it be Anthony, Steve Pro or Bob? <Oh wise Web publishing Garoo... you have Anthony Calfo here by the grace of your guidance and instruction (smile)> I have a potters which has been in quarantine now for about a month, <bless you for the discipline to run a full quarantine!> and is a very enthusiastic eater. Anyway... this morning, it's quite faded... but still excited to eat and doing normal things around the tank. Water checked out normal. Given their propensity to crap-out before your eyes, I am concerned... any thoughts as to what this might be? <singularly, the symptom on this fish that has demonstrated stability and acclimation otherwise is no cause for concern yet> I've always though fading was either age and nutrition induced, or signs of impending doom. <the former certainly not applicable with consideration for the short time that you've had it since import, the latter always a possibility for the very same reason> I suppose attitude/psyche could be another. He's got a cleaner shrimp as tank-buddy, should I get him something else to interact with? <if it was me... dancing girls would make me feel better. For your angelfish however, the suggestion of dither fish could be helpful but not recommended with due caution on the chance that we could be looking at a pre-curser to a pathogenic condition (although unlikely in my opinion)> Thoughts? <No worries yet... I'd suggest an observation period (3-5 days) looking for any evidence of repetitive or escalating symptoms. A fish that has gone through a month of quarantine, eats very well and shows now other or pathogenic symptoms should not be subjected to non-specific, prophylactic medication for example. It would not serve the greater good. Keep us posted> Thanks. J -- <truly...thank you sir for the excellent education. We're carrying on smoothly, I believe, thanks to you. I may join up with you in San Diego later too... what dates are you and Zo going? Anthony> [regarding Centropyge fading] Follow-up Uggh... doesn't look good. I guess it's good he's been eating for the month because I do believe we're about to "go through it" He was in his den this morning, chillin' which is abnormal - very gregarious most times. On observation from the opposite side, the fading was more pronounced and one of the fins looking ragged, eyes are quite clear and he is alert, albeit subdued, and perhaps a little bit of slime-coat slough-off?? Only guess on the fin was perhaps a run-in with the intake of the trickle filter... nothing else in that tank but a cleaner shrimp and [well inspected, quarantined] live rock. So... amazingly enough, decided to come out and eat/nibble - didn't feed very heavily, but it certainly had the energy to get around the tank for food vs. swim and sink, swim and fall over. Tossed in some live macro from one of the fuges as a day-nibble, see if that is interesting to it... not interested in the live rock fauna that is there it would seem. So... I have an idle 25w UV I can bring to bear on the system, but I'm thinking it might be a too-little, too-late type augment. <agreed... but for posterity, perhaps add it anyway> In any case, will be stopping by HD on the way home to get some tubing and clamps so I can get this moving... anything else? Eye of newt? Will also be doing a double check on the water chem. tonight. Cheers, J <bummer dude (my professional and technical opinion in a nut shell)... furthermore, please evaluate the fish head-on (narrow view, face-to face) and tell us if you are seeing any irregular or asymmetrical respiration: either gill closed or favored while the other pumps? seem faster than normal. (say...1/sec)? any sloughing from gills? We're looking for evidence of parasitic organisms. Bacterial infection seems highly unlikely after a month of demonstrated good behavior in good water quality. Unfortunately, you may realize why a full thirty days is necessary for screen for disease... day 29 does not mean home free. Very sorry and hoping for the best. Again...keep us posted please. Anthony> Dwarf Angels Bob- Would a Potters Angel and a Flame Angel be compatible in a 58 gallon reef? Also in the tank would be a Purple or Sailfin Tang and a Percula Clown, Yellow Tailed Damsel and a yet to be decided Goby/Blenny. Thanks, Rob <Not in my opinion... The Potter's (Centropyge potteri), Hawaiian endemic is hard enough to keep on its own... and though the Flame's (Centropyge loricula) geographic range overlaps the Potter's... they are not found together in the wild... in anything resembling a few hundred gallons of water... and the Potter's would likely be miserable... and perish... This species requires very peaceful/calm surroundings, and non-competitive livestock to do well... The rest of your fish list can mix together... but would encourage you to read the "Hawai'i" section of my latest book (A Fishwatcher's Guide to the Tropical Marine Aquarium Fishes of the World... A Regional Account of what's... best, available....), stored w/o much image work at the URL: www.wetwebmedia.com to hone your choices. Bob Fenner> Potter's with an appetite Quickie... After I lost that Declivis in quarantine, I picked up a potters angel from the same shipment. Had been at the LFS for two weeks and was eating and so I took a shot. Certainly cheaper than the Declivis... Anyway, based on your reading materials I gather these fellas are delicate, <Yes... most don't "make it"... traumatic going from their almost constantly hiding behavior to and through what goes on in getting to the end user, you> need best conditions, beginners need not apply, etc. Well this one I've had for a month and it's got quite the appetite. Very enthusiastic eater and quite active - good friends with the cleaner shrimp in quarantine. <Ah, good> Question is... am I out of the woods with this beastie or is constant diligence the best way to proceed? Recalling previous discussion about well-established navarchus being relatively solid. <You're about all the way out... a month is a good long time/trial> Danke. <Welcome. Bob Fenner> J -- Potter's dwarf angel I would like to ask about this angel....I saw my first one (living) at the LFS yesterday and thought that will be the fish. I have room for just one more and I wanted color and pattern as all the other fish are color or pattern (and some have only interesting behavior) I had a Singapore angel a few months ago and he was cool but the last earthquake killed our well water and that killed him. <Have heard of this link... gasses released by the ground shaking...> The only problem I had was that he hid almost constantly, the only time I saw him was when there was food in the water, and then he was like a shark! So I guess what I would like to know is what the behavior of the potter's is like and if he might survive in my tank. <Unfortunately, of marine angels period, and Centropyge genus ones in particular, the Potter's has amongst the most dismal survival histories... Odds/chances are increased tremendously by having a very under-crowded, larger, very overgrown live rock system... especially of a Hawaiian biotopic make-up... Coverage of this and related species and their aquarium suitability rating can be found on our site here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/centropy.htm> I have a 60 gal that has been up for almost a year. There is about 50lb of live rock in there and the only really dangerous fish is the Anthias, who doesn't always appreciate newcomers. ( I have a royal Gramma in there and it took him about a month before he could show his face and not get beat up, though now the Anthias ignores him completely, the Gramma still keeps an eye on him though!) The potter's at the LFS seemed healthy and he was certainly beautiful, outshining even the flame angel that was in there, but he had only been there for 2 days. And I read on your site that they are not hardy fish, that was said about the Singapore angel and I had no problems with mine until the earthquake. <Actually... you're mistaken: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/chaetodonoplus.htm I rate this Chaetodontoplus angel as a "2" and the Potter's as a "3" in my scheme... very different score... The Singapore is the aquarium-hardiest member of its genus> Should I wait longer to get this fish? Is it really a dismal death sentence to put it in my tank? <Seek others input, opinions. You have seen mine and can revisit them. Bob Fenner> Thank you for all the help (previous and present) Kim
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