Re: Acanthastrea having issues 2/17/10
Comments/further questions added inline. Thanks for the response Bob!
> Hi Crew,
> <Vic>
> Long ago in another lifetime you answered some questions about a freshwater
> setup that I had at the time- thanks for that and for all the advice you
> give your readers. I always recommend this site to my friends and new people
> in the hobby.
> I've since graduated to reefkeeping. I currently have a 29 gallon biocube
> which I have modified in several ways. It has a Nano-Doc skimmer, filter
> floss, a Koralia-1, and two return pumps instead of one. I haven't upgraded
> the stock lighting (but I am planning an LED retrofit project). I've
> installed a homemade media basket strongly lit on a reverse day cycle in
> which I am growing Chaetomorpha for nutrient export. I feed fish a small
> amount of Spectrum pellets every day, and try to feed the corals frozen
> Mysis or brine shrimp once every 2-3 days, and all of the other animals take part in the feeding.
> I have a couple questions and one in particular (about my Acans) that I was
> hoping you could answer. First, the usual preliminary info...
> Current inhabitants:
> 2x juvenile black Ocellaris clowns
> Acanthastrea sp. <-- this is the coral in question
> Several Zoanthids
> Pachyclavularia violacea
> Dendrophyllia fistula (not sure if this is the exact species... "real"
> Dendros, not sun coral)
> Ricordea florida
> Euphyllia divisa
> Lobophyllia sp. (red border, turquoise center)
> Sarcophyton (neon green)
> Seriatopora hystrix (hyacinth)
> Seriatopora guttatus (green)
> Montipora capricornis (orange)
> Euphyllia glabrescens
> Duncanopsammia axifuga
> Cyphastrea ocellina
> Clavularia sp. (purple snowflake cloves)
> Xenia umbellata
> Favia sp. (Christmas Favia)
> Montipora digitata
> Ricordea yuma
> <... all this in a 29 gal. cube?!>
Yes, it sounds like a lot but if you saw a picture I'm sure it would seem a lot more realistic. They're all very small specimens. With proper water changes and placement, aggressive skimming, etc I think it'll be ok.
<<Ah yes. I have seen very much more involved/stocked small systems...
All's fine as long as folks do as you state you have done... start w/ small specimens, acclimate them properly... TILL the colonies all get larger, begin to impinge on each other.>>
> 4x Thor amboinensis sexy shrimp
> 1x Red skunk cleaner shrimp
> 2x Bumblebee snails
> 3x Mexican turbo snails
> 6x Cerith snails
> 4x Nassarius snails
> That sounds like a lot now that I listed it all out but they are mostly
> smaller frags of a few heads or branches. The tank has been set up for
> several months. I'm pretty OCD about it and I feel that while stocking may
> appear to be heavy for a tank this young, I added each coral individually
> and kept tabs on the water parameters the whole time, with religious
> 5gal/week water changes (or more). I also change my filter floss every other
> day, as soon as it turns light brown.
> <Okay>
> Water parameters are all within acceptable levels. Last checked:
> ph : 8.3
> Ca : 390 ppm
> dKH : 9.5
> PO4 : 0 - .25 ppm
> NO3 : 5 ppm (did a few water changes after this reading)
> sg : .023
> <Mmm, I'd raise this and keep in steady at 1.025>
It actually is higher than 1.023, usually 1.024 or so when I put the water in and raises a bit with evaporation in between top offs. Not a significant amount. Good advice though, I think that was a typo on my part.
<<Good for me to (re) state; esp. for browsers>>
> temp : ~79
> With the exception of my Acans which have been very healthy looking up till
> now, all of the corals are doing well. They are all growing- even the birds
> nest and Montis both of which are usually recommended for systems with more
> light than the PC bulbs in my stock hood. I have them up high in the center
> of the tank where the PAR is highest, with good results. I haven't seen any
> signs of stress or disease on any other corals in the tank and have yet to lose a single animal so far.
> When I got the Acans they had been fragged a couple weeks earlier and were
> still recovering from that- some of the heads were only partial and the
> skeleton was visible on all sides. In the few months I had them, they have
> fully recovered and all of them had essentially regrown the full circle of
> their outer flesh.
> <Only the first pic "came through" and it looks very nice indeed>
I've reattached the "sick" picture. I think only the healthy one went through.
<<I did "recover" both... they both appear fine to me. The one bad/exposed bit is not necessarily "that bad">>
> I have a couple beautiful shots of them at this stage. A
> few days ago I noticed a sexy shrimp sitting on the inner disc of one of the
> Acan heads picking at a whitish looking thing that looked like it was stuck
> in or coming out of the mouth of the polyp.
> <Mmmm... summat going on here>
See pic. Looks not good for sure, just not sure if you've seen this before and can make some sort of diagnosis with the picture.
<<Looks like a mechanical injury. Again, I would do nothing overt here>>
> I wasn't sure what it was but
> thought it might be some sort of waste, having seen these shrimp eat
> Lobophyllia poop many times. I saw it the next day in the same spot and the
> coral was clearly in some kind of distress- or at least did not appear
> normal at all. This white thing, I discovered, was actually a bit of
> skeleton. I'm not sure if it was always there and just right below the
> surface of the polyp but I hadn't seen the skeleton in that spot before.
A couple days later the issue had progressed and the edge of the Acan was
> developing some kind of tear or recession. The other heads on the colony and
> even the other side of the affected polyp appear to be doing alright- an
> adjacent polyp does look like its having a similar thing happen on its outer
> flesh ring, though, and I'll keep an eye on it.
> <Good>
I fed last night and all of the polyps took the food, but the one with apparent tissue damage had a clear problem "swallowing" the brine shrimp.
<<No big>>
> I've attached a picture of the same coral eating some Mysis while healthy a
> few weeks ago, and another one that I took last night with my phone - please excuse the graininess.
> Any idea what this could be?
> Bacterial infection?
> Some parameter that would only affect the Acan?
> Is this some weird type of polyp reproduction/splitting?
> Damage from sexy shrimp picking at it?
> <Maybe one of these or another possibility... one of the clowns or another invertebrate chewing>
The clowns don't go near the Acanthastrea. They really only ever "touch" the Euphyllia species, and even then mainly the torch. Sometimes the frogspawn.
<<Might have been done when no one was watching>>
> On this note, I have seen them
> 'picking' at corals before including this Acan, my Seriaptora, and even saw
> them rolling around a Zoanthid that had either come off on its own from a
> fresh frag or was "removed" for a sexy shrimp feast. It's annoying but I try
> to keep them well fed to curb these impulses. They mainly hang out on the
> Lobophyllia which does not seem to mind their presence, but I frequently see
> them reaching down into a mouth with their evil little pincers.
> <These little Thor are generally not problematical... are more
> opportunistic by far than predaceous>
I hope not. They're attractive little creatures but I was afraid that they were causing real harm to the coral.
<<Are some of my faves to look for when diving in the TWA, Indian and Pacific Oceans>>
> It may or may not be related- my Ocellaris clowns were recently introduced
> to the tank a week or two ago after two months in a hospital/quarantine tank
> to guarantee that I did not have any marine Ich. In the last five days, one
> of them has developed a moderate fin rot on the front of its dorsal fin.
> I'm not sure what could have caused it.
> <Maybe rubbing against the Acanthastrea>
As I mentioned above, I don't think it was the Acan. If anything it was the torch that might have hurt them.
<<Could well be>>
> They don't look stressed, there are no
> other aggressors in the tank, and the water checks out. Both are eating and
> have ravenous appetites. They have been trying to host in my torch coral..
> maybe they hurt themselves on the skeleton somehow?
> <Yes; easily so>
Thanks for clearing that up. I know that the torch has a sharp skeleton but not sure how likely it was for the fish to hurt itself.
<<Is sharp and their sting... can be very tough>>
> I am moving them to my
> hospital tank and treating with Maracyn 2 starting tonight,
> <Mmm, I wouldn't be moving so fast here... unless they're in obvious
> trouble, I'd leave them where they are>
The dorsal fin on the female is almost halfway gone, the front half is just bones. I can see some tissue inflammation at the base of the fin. A few days prior to that I saw stringy poo, which I've understood to indicate some gastrointestinal problem (bacteria, worms, something is amiss).
<<Mmm, a possibility; though not for sure>>
> but it's disheartening to have them get sick all of a sudden with no obvious cause.
> Any ideas on the fin rot?
> <Interaction with...>
How long should I have them in the hospital tank before returning them to the main tank for this treatment? I am fairly Still curious if you have any advice about how long they should stay in there after Maracyn treatment, possible avenues for root cause other than
hurting themselves on the torch like chemical imbalances, parasites...
<<Two weeks... I would "de-worm" them and treat with an antiprotozoal =(Metronidazole) here as an S.O.P.>>
> certain that at this point with some of the dorsal fin bones exposed,
> treatment is absolutely necessary and the fish will not recover without medication... correct me if I'm wrong.
> Thanks for reading and for any advice that you can give.
> Victor
> <Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Thanks again Bob, greatly appreciated.
<<Welcome Victor. BobF>>

Re: Acanthastrea having issues, Thor amboinensis comp. w/ Cnid.s 3/2/10
Bob,
<Victor>
Thanks for the advice. I have a bit of an update and am only following up because I'd hate to lose this specimen and it does not appear to be improving so far.
<Ahh>
I think I've isolated the culprit(s); my Thor amboinensis. Have you heard anything about them picking at corals?
<These little Hippolytids will do so if very hungry... I consider them more opportunistic than predaceous>
I've heard that elsewhere amongst all of the proclamations that they are "Reef safe" or "reef safe with caution".
However, in the past months I've seen them constantly pick at my Zoas and a large Palythoas that I have, as well as the Acan. Before I was not sure whether they cause damage but they certainly keep the Zoas closed and annoyed quite often.
Anyhow, I saw one of these shrimp perched on the Acan and picking at it... maybe "tearing" is a more suitable word, because it was literally pulling off pieces of the tissue. It wasn't just the dead/dying tissue, but healthy-looking portions of the polyps. The shrimp appeared to be putting quite a bit of effort into each "yank" with its claws so it was clearly pulling something off of the coral. I isolated this shrimp and put it in a small plastic container within the tank, and soon saw another shrimp doing the same thing. They're now cellmates. The corals are open more than usual and I will keep an eye on the Acan but it is really suffering. Is there any insight that visual inspection can provide?
<Perhaps>
I've read that color of the revealed skeleton can indicate bacterial infection. Should I continue feeding more or less often?
<I'd check all over again, continue with best practices, intervals>
Move it to higher or lower lighting/flow? Could continued harassment by these small shrimp have caused progressive tissue damage and eventual deterioration/death? How "far gone" can the coral be and still recover?
<To the point of very little live tissue being extant>
I will probably be trading in these two meddlesome shrimp, and possibly the other two if I see a pattern in their behavior. Maybe the appetite for coral meat is an individual thing.
FYI my two clowns just finished their Maracyn 2 treatment in a hospital tank and the fin is already recovering.
Thanks again,
Victor
<And you. BobF>

Re: Acanthastrea having issues 8/6/10 Bob, <Hey Vic> I just wanted to do a very late follow-up to this for the sake of completeness and in case anyone else has something similar. My Acanthastrea tissue necrosis slowed, stopped, and then the colony recovered with a bang. <Yay!> In the place of the dead tissue, several babies grew back and I went from 5 total polyps to somewhere around 10-12. I've attached a recent picture and a picture when it was at its worst. <Very nice> It could have certainly been a couple of the Thor amboinensis with a taste for coral flesh, but it isn't entirely clear what caused the damage. All recovery occurred after I removed these shrimp from the tank. Cheers! Thanks for all the hard work you guys and gals put in. Victor <Thank you for the follow-up here. BobF>