FAQs on Quinine Compounds Use, Trouble,
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Dealing with exceptionally hardy strain of crypt?
Impt. notes re Quinines; old Amquel toxicity
I've been happily reading your site for several years now and am grateful for
all of the information. Ever since ich entered my 170g reef almost two years ago
before I learned to properly QT, I've been fighting it with just about every
method in the book, including many "reef-safe" snake oils, but also QT with
hypo, Chloroquine, and quinine...sometimes keeping the fish in
the DT while removing LR and corals, others removing fish to QT and letting the
DT go fallow.
<With you so far>
I've blamed failures on everything from not keeping medication levels high
enough, to keeping the QT and DT to close together so that aerosolized crypt
could move between the two systems.
<Interesting speculation. More likely resident/residual infestation. Most
systems have this/them>
I've also demonstrated through studies in a lab with good equipment that
Chloroquine degrades super fast leaving behind an inactive molecule in my tank
(I was monitoring by HPLC , and I believe, based on changes in CPQ
behavior over a year, that a microbe capable of detoxifying Chloroquine either
entered or evolved in my system...more about that another time, but high levels
of the degradation do appear to be toxic to Zebrasoma tangs).
<I REALLY encourage you to publish your data, explanations>
I now know that quinine is perfectly stable in my system and that the
concentration remains constant after dosing regardless of skimmer or keeping
lights on. It clearly wipes out any visible ich on my fish within 24 hours and
prevents the return until removed. Unfortunately, as you already know, it dos
nothing for the inactive cyst stage, and I find that certain tangs (particularly
Zebrasoma) begin to show signs of drug toxicity after about a week
(labored breathing, failure to eat, general listlessness) but they recover fully
withi8n a day of being moved to a system without quinine.
<I have suspected such as well>
SO....I still have ich. I just completed a 13 week fallow (no new coral or other
additions), my QT and DT are far apart, precautions were taken to heat-sterilize
anything that went from one tank to another, etc. I moved a Kole tang with no
visible signs of ich from QT to the DT.
<Note the qualifier, "no visible signs">
He had been at high quinine concentration for the previous five days and was
allowed an hour in the quinine containing water during the transfer process,
just in case there were any random cysts that had just hatched so that the new
hatchlings would have time to die from high drug exposure.
About a week later, the first small blotch appeared, looking nothing like ich.
<You should sample, check under a microscope>
Couple more blotches (as opposed to raised sugar grains) appeared here and there
until this morning when I clearly saw some raised sugary grains. So, it's back
to QT for him, and I'll have quinine in the tank to make sure that anything on
him dies before it can re-encyst and live to infect another fish.
Finally to my question: Would you let this DT go fallow for 6 months?
<As long as possible, practical... more likely, with no desired life present,
I'd bleach all and restart it>
A year? Or sacrifice your corals, cook your live rock, empty the DT, and go over
every component with a hair dryer to make sure not so much as a single drop of
water remains anywhere in the general vicinity?
<No; I would not go this far. Just as likely to (re) import Crypt w/ new fishes>
I have also considered periodically placing an ich-resistant fish in an
isolation box within the tank in case this strain requires fish hormones to
break dormancy. I realize all of this might seem extreme, but I seem to have a
real survivor here and the theory of crypt weakening after a year of successive
generations seems to either be wrong, or to not apply to this strain.
The good news is that my fish seem to be real survivors....though I did lose
many to a bad batch of Amquel plus, which I will write about separately.
<To/for browsers; DO give your polyvinylpyrrolidone solutions (commercial
dechloraminators often contain) a "good whiff" and if they smell, toss rather
than use them>
I would greatly appreciate any advice here.
<I'd have you read here:
and a few of the linked files above.... for solace, input. I'd strive to "keep
balance" in your/fishes favor here; through optimized care: environment and
nutrition; use of cleaners.... Bob Fenner>
purple tang with spots after 10 weeks of Chloroquine?
I just had my terrifying moment, and have been reading for a year on
everything I could about crypt since my original troubles began. I still
don't understand this one. I've had my DT fallow for 10 weeks and
started returning fish from a QT that has been treated with CP (Fishman
chemical) for the last 10 weeks at about 10 mg/L, refreshed once per
carbon, and only ambient lighting (no UV, but I did skim).
Purple tang looked fine, though a bit faded before I netted him. Upon
release into the DT, he appeared to have small white bumps, like
<... Warning here; there are quite a few "causes" of such bumps... some
pathogenic, others not. Only way to ascertain for sure is sampling and
I've shined a bright light on my QT and all of the fish look spot free
including other tangs. Is it possible that crypt some how survived on
this purple tang, or do purple tangs occasionally break out with bumps
when netted and moved?
<More the latter possibility>
He is otherwise looking vibrant and healthy. I transferred a male blue
throat trigger with him, who had been one of the
most heavily affected fish by the crypt outbreak....never seen him look
Thoughts? Is it back to the qt ASAP for another 10 weeks with a higher
dose of cp or different treatment regimen?
<Mmm; will mention I urge 15gm/l... but would not re-treat this fish>
Or should I give him a few days to see the bumps were to an unrelated
<Nor this. IF anything, I'd sample... as above; if not pH adjusted
freshwater dip enroute to replacing the fish in the DT>
Re: Ich and CP Tx
Happy Friday, Bob!
<And you John>
Surprisingly tangs have been getting along fine. :) They really don't paying to
each other, and every once in a while they'll bicker, but nothing to the point
of a death match!
<Ah, good; like many Cichlids, when crowded Tangs may get along for a while>
At one point, the sohal would "shake" or spaz as he/she swam and would rub the
gill area on a pvc pipe, and then stop where the water returns from the HOB
filter. But no fast gilling/breathing. It did that for most of the day, today it
seemed a lot more calm and swam normally. No other tang was exhibiting this.
The only fish I am wary of is the 6 line in the same tank, it hovers in one spot
in the tank, but will pick at Masago when it's dropped in the tank (i drop very
little food into the hospital tanks with the ongoing "ammonia problem" I have;
Red Sea test tests 2.0 ppm, and I have been using Prime and two bottles of
BioSpira so far. A third bottle on the way)
The purple tang seems to have regained some appetite, and the sohal is the only
one in THAT tank not eating.
<Not a problem really>
In the other tank I noticed the Anthias swimming 90 degrees vertically, face up.
I thought they were goners but as soon as lights are out, they swim to the
bottom and take refuge by the pipes. What gives? When i approach the tank, they
are alert and dart to hide and go horizontal. Any ideas, Bob?
<Stress, the medication>
Thanks for being available for the aquatic community!!!
I trust you'll have a great weekend!
<Ah yes; thank you. BobF>
Re: Ich and CP Tx 1/11/15
Bob!!!! Great news, for me at least, :)
Looks like most fish, especially my favorite sohal, has regained their
appetites! Sohal used to only eat Nori, and is back at devouring it again.
So my observations with CP Tx:
1) appetite suppression (hopefully gone by now)
2) slowness, sluggishness in behavior, I wouldn't call it lethargic though.
Almost like "fish high"
3) ich appeared during treatment, but most likely ich completing the life cycle
during Tx in the fish.
4) accumulation of white film on glass, and a weird smell coming from the tanks.
5) "ammonia spikes"- not sure what to make of this.
<All known effects>
Anyway, I'll update you in hopes that maybe you'll be able to share my
experience on WWM so others can learn too.
<Thank you for sharing>
Longnose butterfly; CP burn?
Good evening Bob, and crew,
I am in need of advise <advice>. I am treating my fish in a hospital
tank for Ich. I had outbreaks years ago, all the fish but a tang pulled
thru, no treatment
other than frequent water changes and continued good water quality. The
tang was treated with copper.
Over the years I have had only a few fish in my DT and recently started
adding fish per your "ok" on my planned additions. Of course this has
upset the balance of a lovely aquarium, and three weeks later a couple
fish have spots and some distress. I pulled the distressed fish, and I
started copper treatment in a hospital tank. Ammonia could not be
controlled so I decided to try using Chloroquine phosphate per The
Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook instructions.
I set up a new 30 gallon tank with mature biological filtration. I am
four days into it and all the fish look great and are behaving healthy.
All except the Longnose butterfly. The butterfly fish was never in the
copper, btw. He has good color, and is eating NLS pellets. The issue is
that all along his back where his dorsal spines meet his body is notably
swollen, and his scales are standing out in that area, like a localized
dropsy. I can not get a good picture of him, sorry. Any suggestions
would be appreciated.
<Mmm, I'd keep an eye on this Forcipiger... and be ready to pull it,
possibly do a pH adjusted freshwater dip (SOP on WWM) enroute to
returning it to another main/display sans further treatment. CP
exposure is more touchy with Butterflies (and Angels, and...). I suspect
it is the quinine exposure here that is causing it harm. Bob
Re: Longnose butterfly 3/19/14
Thank you for the fast response. I think it might be best to pull him
out tonight. His caudal fin area is swollen too. Again, thank you so
<Ah, welcome. BobF>
CP use 2/25/13
I just recently dosed my tank with Chloroquine Phosphate (40mg) per
gallon and my puffer went from white to real dark brown. He's
still pretty active but is this normal and will he make it through?
<Hopefully so. See WWM re quinine compounds. B>
Thanks again, I think I have used this email for assistance over 200
times within the last 3 years. Thank you so much for your time and
Help! Marine fishes with rapid breathing. Quinine effect
Greetings to Bob et al at WWM.
I really have to try writing to you about fun and "happy" things every
once in a while! So a short refresher, and maybe Bob and some readers
who remember will think, "Is this girl really still doing this?!?" My
220 gallon tank has been with Cryptocaryon irritans since, oh, November
of 2010. Yes! I've done a million things (Formaldehyde, Quinine sulfate,
Chloroquine phosphate, hyposalinity at 1.008 for up to 18 weeks at a
time) and my "main" fishes are still with me...well, maybe not for long.
Anyways, the most recent treatment is that they have been in
hyposalinity of 1,008 for the past 4 months, and repeatedly, I will see
spots on the Acanthurus leucosternon that are white and raised, and
discolored "spots" that are flat on the Pomacanthus imperator, since
they have been in hypo, stupid me, have introduced a Amblygobius
phalaena and a very voracious, pellet and seaweed eating Labroides
dimidiatus. Over the months, no spots on either of the two, but note the
recurring "spots" on the Acanthurus leucosternon and Pomacanthus
imperator. So my thoughts are coming to the conclusion of, I have a
funky strain of something... parasitic in nature, behaviorally Crypt
like as I do see the on and off cycles. I've concluded that for some
reason, this illness is not being transmitted to the Amblygobius
phalaena nor the Cleaner Wrasse, maybe the hyposalinity, but I really
need to do something to "break the parasitic cycle". I went and bought a
bunch of tanks, so officially I have a fish room now, and they consist
of a 75 gallon tank for which I placed the Acanthurus leucosternon and
Pomacanthus imperator with a few pieces of dead rock (which I have
plenty of), and I placed the Amblygobius phalaena and Labroides
dimidiatus in a small 15 gallon tank with a small tub of dead sand and a
piece of rock to help the two feel more at home. They are still in
hyposalinity at 1.009 today. I added 2.64 grams of Chloroquine
diphosphate into the 75 gallon tank (water calculated at 66 gallons)
broken up in two doses over 12 hours. But since then, I've noticed rapid
breathing in the Acanthurus leucosternon and Pomacanthus imperator.
<Yes; likely the quinine>
I have since done two huge water changes to remove the Chloroquine and
since I still had "good" water in my display tank from which they came,
I used 90% that water and 10% new water for those water changes. They
are still breathing very rapidly. I've done an ammonia level and it was
at 0.25 prior to the water change. I've replaced the carbon filters for
the Emperor Filter that I'm using for this hospital tank.
Something to note about these fishes prior to the move. They had been
eating like champs, with normal behaviors and breathing prior to this
As you know and maybe remember, I have always been extremely nervous
about taking them out of the display tank because even though they show
spots, they were happy and healthy otherwise and now, I may lose these
"Ichy" fishes whom are so dear.
Please let me know your thoughts.
<You're doing what I would...>
As always, I truly appreciate your help, and enjoy reading and learning
from your wonderful site!
<I do hope they recover... soon. Bob Fenner>
Was: Re: Stocking list ,
opinions please? Now: QS failed Crypt treatment 11/14/11
Hello again Crew,
Bad news, we broke out the champagne too early: the tang suddenly broke
out in Ich (visible) again two weeks after I sent you this message
(still in QT). I tried a repeat treatment of the Quinine same as last
time but at day 5 of this dose she is still covered and
I have a nasty suspicion that the quinine has actually not worked at
all, and all I have observed in reality is the Theronts leaving the
fish to infest the substrate. Because there were no tomites in the
water already, being a freshly setup QT tank, there would have been
nothing to re-infect her for a week or so until the new tomonts hatched
and re-infected her.. I think this may be what has happened.
<Does appear so>
Now at day 5 of the second quinine treatment I'm seeing no change
like last time , re-enforcing my theory. I'm really bummed.
<Time to switch to another treatment mode... CP or chelated copper,
the last perhaps along w/ reduced SPG>
I've put a UV steriliser on today (36W) to fry the tank a bit
before I do a water change and hit with a third 5 day 30mg/L dose of
quinine (without UV of course). I've also begun slowly dropping the
salinity in case I need to go down that path instead. Just a couple of
questions if I may?
Do you think I should:
a. Do a 25% water change, hit with third quinine dose, Lower the
salinity to 1.015 (as per CMA) over the next few days?
b. Do a 25% water change and lower the salinity to 1.015 over the next
few days - forget the quinine?
<Am more inclined toward (b) so far...>
c. Do a 25% water change and hit with a dose of quinine again - leave
d. Start drawing on some more of my chemical arsenal and try copper and
<The Copper (chelated product) and lowered SPG are my choice>
Appreciate your help
<And you your patience, sharing. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Stocking list , opinions please? QS failure, Crypt f's
Appreciate your advice/time,
I thought it was generally advised against to use copper with
hyposalinity due to copper being more toxic at lower SPG?
<To extents yes>
I've started lowering the SPG further anyway, but many (e.g. Steven
Pro et al) seem to think that 1.012 is a more appropriate level than
1.015, some even advocate as low as 1.008?.
<Yes; my lower limit is 1.010>
I'm currently shooting for the 1.012 as a compromise as I only have
the glass bulb hydrometer so accuracy is not pin point
Do you think it would be dangerous to dose quinine or
Metronidazole/Praziquantel at the same time as the low SPG?
<I do not; unless the fishes are badly compromised...>
Really nervous of copper use , my Cu test kit sucks as far as I'm
concerned with the colour gradients being all shades of vague copper
colours I can barely discern and huge differences between them. I
managed to kill the last fish I tried to cure with copper, but this was
combined with a temperature spike to 29 degrees C on a particular hot
day, so not sure which killed it, Cu, heat , the Ich or most probably
the stress of all three at once.
<I don't know either. Copper is dangerous, no doubt... and
maintaining useful concentrations in marine settings is difficult...
Less than 0.15-0.20 is of no use; more than 0.35 often deadly>
At the moment I'm leaning towards hitting it with another dose of
<Do please read here... re warning signs, incidents w/ QS, my
urgings to use CP instead: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinTrbFixF.htm
and the linked files above>
Hyposalinity and trying to feed Nori and Mysids soaked with Jungle
Internal Parasite Guard (Metronidazole, Praziquantel and salt) and
Seachem reef fuel. This Jungle product is directed to add to the water
, but I have read that these are only effective if ingested and I have
no idea how to dose this stuff for feeding as it is compounded for
adding directly to the water
Do you have any knowledge of this product and how I might dose it
<Not enough, no; thankfully marine organisms "drink" their
environment (more than fresh)>
(for the fish that is.. not me ;-) )
Should I try just adding it to the water?
<Yes I would>
Last thing, I DID feed the fish live brine shrimp, and have read that
these are possible carriers for Ich. Any thoughts on this as the cause
<Can be a source... Hence my usual suggestion to soak all in
freshwater for several minutes before offering>
Thanks for the continued support ,
<And you for your further shared intelligence and related
Frayed Pectoral Fins,
follow up 7/6/11
Hi Bob or WWM crew,
I followed your advice on adding quinine sulfate to my
QT in hypo and the dot on my achilles is gone. I do fairly large water
changes on the tank, around 40% 2x a week to keep water quality good.
The weird thing now though is that the pectoral fins of the
achilles seem to be a little frayed.
<This may be due to the QS itself... search WWM re>
Aside from that, he is in tip top shape. I feed him 2-3x a day with
mysis soaked in vitamins and Nori.
What do I do about the frayed fins? Do I just keep the water quality
good and it will go away or do you suggest I treat with something?
<Move the fish in a few days, to a large,
established system. BobF>
Re: re: Good morning..... CP
Hey Bob, regarding Chloroquine Phosphate dosing I went ahead and
checked out Ed Noga's book like you suggested. I am experiencing
very strange behavior from all 3 of my fish with the 40mg per gallon
dosage. My PB tang is breathing so fast I can't even keep track of
counting the speed of his breathing rate.
<I'd change out about half the water, stat!>
My flame angel and hippo tang are swimming weird and not eating. None
of these fish have any signs of parasites but I am only on my sixth day
of treatment (2 doses). My levels seem to be ok and I weighed the CP
out with a beam scale that measures grains (and converted milligrams to
grains). Noga didn't state much in his book regarding this type of
behavior to this compound. Did you ever see this?
I don't want to kill these fish and I am frustrated. Should the
fish be acting and swimming kind of strange under treatment with
CP....or any strong Med for that matter? Your input would be
<Do this water change now. BobF>
Re: re: Good morning..... CP tox. 3/16/11
Ok.....done. I have charcoal running also. This happens way too much
with the quinine compounds. When this happened to my last flame angel
he was never the same after that. Always swam sluggish and just always
seemed tired. Does this toxicity do permanent damage to my fish or will
it heal in time?
<I hope not... Might I ask, are you sure re the volume of water
here? That is, are you taking into account the real tank dimensions,
sans displacement from other objects? It's quite common for folks
to "assume" that the gallonage is about the same as the
"model #" (for want of any other descriptor)... Most tanks
are surprisingly short of their understood gallonage... hence too easy
Re: re: Good morning..... CP dis use 3/16/11
Yes, when I first bought the tank I used five gallons buckets to fill
it bare and came up with 17 gallons.
I only have a small amount of live rock in there and it's bare
bottom. So I treated for 16 gallons. I read on reef central to do a
double dosage during your first dose
<I would NOT do this. B>
so I can't imagine I overdosed if the fish can withstand a double
dose. I hope the toxicity didn't do any permanent damage.
Re: re: Hey Bob 2/22/11
Hey Bob, good morning. I am just following up with you
regarding CP. I finally finished my final dose and my
ammonia has spiked to 2.0....my fish are all half dead. I think I may
have overdosed. I dosed 40mg per gallon but added a little extra by
Does this mean my year and a half old cycled tank is going to have to
start from square one?
<Not likely. B>
Is this like having a brand new tank without being cycled? I've
been adding live bacteria and doing water changes hoping for the
Re: CP over/re-dosing 3/27/11
Oh, and I forgot to tell you regarding dosing of Chloroquine
I discovered through experimentation that the CP does not need to ever
be redosed after the first.
<Mmm, I'll have to look. Thought I'd expressed this
sufficiently on WWM>
After five days after the second dose my fish would overdose (rapid
breathing, erratic swimming, discoloration etc.).
This happened three times in a row with several different rounds of
Now I dosed once for 10 days and fish are great and parasite free...for
now, we will see. CP is so new I didn't expect you to know much
about it but Dr. Fishman at fishman chemicals said not to do more than
one dose because of actual overdosing. Figured id let you know that and
it would be beneficial to pass that on.
<Thank you for this. B>
Re: re: 3/28/11
Sure anytime. It's amazing how the other two times immediately
after the second dose I had an ammonia spike at 2.0....BOTH times. And
all of those fish are now dead. So, one dose (at least here in
Philadelphia) is enough.
Re: Hey crew... QS, more Crypt!
Hey Bob, another quick question for you. I just dosed my QT tank with
quinine sulfate for ich and the amount of spots went from just a few to
the whole body of my fish being covered.
The parasite has increased ten fold. These fish have been in QT for
almost two weeks before any spots showed up. I did some research and
couldn't find any situation like mine. Did you ever hear of this?
<Increase the dosage!>
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Re: Hey crew 1/17/11
Ok.....so it doesn't get worse before it gets better?
<If I understand you, no... such parasitic infestations should only
decrease with applications of medications placed to destroy their
off-host intermediate stages in place. B
Re: re: Flame Angel lump, QS...
Hey everyone. I took Bob's advice and treated with quinine
sulfate and I am having trouble understanding how this Med is
gentler and safer than copper and other harsh chemicals. The reason for
my lack of understanding is simply because of the way the fish look and
act now after treatment.
My flame angel is almost getting completely taken away by the current
when before it barely moved him. He is swimming weird and has cloudy
eyes and fins. Looks to me like he is going to die.
<Change some water, now! How much did you add... to what calculated
volume of water?>
I don't understand how anyone thinks this Med is less harsh than
others. Unless, of course, this is normal behavior and physical
appearance. I have a powder brown tang and a Dottyback also in the same
tank and they don't look any better. I followed the directions to
the letter but it fails to mention the amount of days to be treated. It
says 1/4 teaspoon per ten gallons every 24 hours with 25 percent water
change before each treatment. It says nothing about how many days to
continue this for. So I just treated for five days since there are no
visible spots on my fish any longer. If I treated for any longer, I
feel as though my angel will die. Does any of this behavior and trauma
sound normal to you with the treatment of quinine sulfate?
<It does not>
Checking over the forums I found no one having the same exact
Thanks again everyone and happy holidays!
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinDosingF.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: re: Flame Angel lump 11/28/10
Shall I stop treatment?
I dosed one quarter teaspoon
<... meaningless w/o knowing the percent composition. Read where you
per ten gallons for four days straight with 25 percent water change
before each treatment and its a 20gal tank.
<... calculate how many actual gallons... 231 cubic inches
Did I kill my fish?
<? Not yet evidently. B>
Re: Flame Angel lump 11/29/10
Hey Bob, just wanted to touch base and let you know that my fish are
swimming normal again.
They're not 100% back to normal but definitely better. I hope they
didn't get poisoned from the QS. Do you think five days was
substantial enough to eradicate the Ich?
<Could well be>
I'm going to leave them in
QT for another week to be safe.
Thanks again for your help
<Thank you for this update. BobF>
Re: re: Flame Angel lump
And thank you for your assistance on this matter.
<Certainly welcome. B>
Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues?
Greetings to all at WWM!
I've been treating my FOWLR display tank with Chloroquine
phosphate since April 30th for my quinine resistant strain of C.
irritans. The fishes have all appeared to tolerate this
medication very well and no more ich after one week of
I've continued this treatment as I learned from Dr. Fishman
that this medication can be dosed continuously in the tank as a
preventative for further reinfection.
<Mmm, I would not do this... with CP or other med.>
My question is in regards to the Atlantic Blue tang, who shows
these "blotches" only at certain times when his skin
turns a darker color.
<Just "stress"... your pic shows a very nice
They are not raised or fuzzy. Behaviorally, he is a little more
isolative, and appetite has been decreased. One of his eyes had
some cloudiness but this seems to come and go.
I am wondering if this is due to Chloroquine sensitivity, or is
this a secondary infection.
<Much more the former likely>
My tank parameters: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, pH 8.2. He
is the only fish showing this.
Thank you for your time and providing this wonderful site to
educate and enlighten!!!
<Thank you for sharing! BobF>
Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? and CP
Thanks for your reply!
I'm sure you don't remember as you get thousands of
e-mails, but you have a "baby" picture of him when he
was the size of a silver dollar - when I sent a picture of him
with "black dots" where the ich fell of from the
quinine sulfate treatment! He has grown to be four inches big
now, bigger than my Powder Blue tang.
I don't think he would still be with me if it was not for
your guidance and your web site!
Thank You Thank You Thank You!
PS: The Chloroquine phosphate treatment will end in six weeks as
I was wanting to make sure that I have three months with no signs
of C. irritans before stopping. I believe that I got the quinine
resistant strain by stopping too soon.
<I think it (the Crypt) is long gone. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues?
Sorry to go on and on... BUT
How do you recommend I "stop" the treatment?
<Just stop adding the material>
1. Just start routine weekly water changes of 15-20%
2. Turn on the skimmer
3. Add carbon
4. All of the above
5. Do nothing, the Chloroquine will "self destruct"
after five seconds...
<Oh! It already has if you haven't been re-adding it.
Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues?
Just for future reference...
I know that we dose Chloroquine at 40 mg per gallon. I've
read that you "re dose" every 7-10 days, but as I was
waiting for my treatment, I've done some additional reading
and learned that Chloroquine "is very stable in
and I've spoken with Dr. Fishman regarding this and he shared
that you don't have to re dose. At one point, I had 22.8
grams total in my 190 gallons of water which is three times the
normal treatment dose and that was when all
my fishes appetite decreased. So...I guess in a round about way,
if I ever need to treat the fishes for crypt, how would I dose
the Chloroquine to begin with, would I re dose and if so, how
often, and for how long?
Thanks a Million!
<Thank you for this valuable input. Am going to be
"splitting up" the Quinine cpd. FAQs today likely.
Fin damage from quinine sulfate, stress, or secondary
bacterial infection? -- 3/14/10
Greetings to Bob and the Crew at WWM,
Hope that all is going well with you.
I am currently using quinine sulfate on my Powder Blue Tang,
Atlantic Blue Tang, and Kole Tang for C. irritans that has been
haunting them since November last year. I am in the middle of the
second treatment as the ich returned several days after the first
treatment due to bad methodology on my part. Everyone is clear of
ich spots and behaviors have been normal with activity and eating
habits. My question concerns my Kole Tang, who did not tolerate
the quinine as well as the others. With the initial treatment,
his skin became blotchy and his pectoral fins started to
"disintegrate" but then his skin improved within three
days of finishing the 7 day treatment and daily water changes. I
am in day 4 of the second treatment, he did not have the blotchy
skin reaction as he did the first round, and his pectoral fins
are not getting worse but have been like this (in the pictures)
for 5 days now. I am wondering if this is a secondary bacterial
infection or is it just taking the fins longer to heal?
<Looks to me to be more of damage from exposure to simple
"poor water quality". Should/will heal in time w/
Interesting observation to share on quinine sulfate and
Peppermint shrimp tolerated the quinine sulfate well, until he
molted. He died shortly after that.
Another interesting point I learned from Dr. Aukes is that
quinine sulfate is an alkaloid
<And the sulfate radical can lower pH substantially...>
and the fishes sense this through their lateral lines. They
don't like it and literally tries to swim away from it when I
add it to the water. I also lost a couple of fish because they
jumped out of the tank during treatment, so I would recommend
that anyone treating their fishes with quinine to cover their
tanks tightly. The fish also show other stress behaviors by
eating less, being more irritable or grumpy, and showing stress
coloration (my juvenile Atlantic Blue is normally yellow when he
is happy and brown when he is mad, he is consistently darker with
quinine treatment, but changes back to yellow when treatment
ends.) The quinine also seem to decrease the fishes' slime
coat which makes the scratch marks clearer if the fish has done a
lot of flashing.
I hope the lessons I have learned will help others in the
<Me too. Thank you for this valuable input/sharing.
Re: Fin damage from quinine sulfate, stress, or
secondary bacterial infection? 3/15/10
Bob, thanks so much!
I hope that in a few weeks I can share good news that we are
finally finished with the ich.
For all my future acquisitions: Quarantine Quarantine
Forcipiger hlth., troubleshooting
I am quite confused about medicating a Long nose Butterfly.
I recently treated my long nose with Quinine Sulfate for Ich and
after about three weeks it's finally gone.
<In Quarantine? Or in-tank? If you did this in tank, then the
Crypt will not be gone>
From a previous email one of the representatives from WWM
recommended that I treat with a product called PraziPro because
my Butterfly was flashing (he said, based on what I told him, he
probably has gill flukes).
I started treating with the Prazi and ever since then my BF has
increased rapid gill movement and twitches a lot.
If in fact he did have flukes, I thought the Prazi was supposed
to help kill them.....why are they getting worse?
<Are they flukes? If you remove the fish and freshwater dip
him, you might see one or both of two things that would give you
a better idea: If he stops flashing afterwards, then it is
probably flukes. If you can see specks on the base of the dip
container (usually white, so a dark dip container might be
prudent), then they also could be flukes. Removal of these and
placed under a cheap microscope will confirm. If neither of these
happen, then it is probably not flukes>.
He has been clear of spots for over two weeks
<Could have just cycled off... the fish may still be infested
with Crypt.. in the gills, thus the heavy breathing &
and I proceeded with the full treatment recommended for QS.
<Another possibility here... medication in the water can/ does
irritate fishes, to the point where they exhibit
'flashing' behaviour. You might find that with the
removal of the medication and improved water quality this will
Thank you folks
<No problem, Simon>
BF dis., Quinine use
I value you each and every one of your opinions but I would like
Bob's advice on this one if at all possible. I just recently
upgraded from a 10g QT to a 20g long QT. I have a small 2.5 inch
Heniochus and a 3" Raccoon
<I do want to (re)state for browsers, that I'd look for
larger (but not too large) specimens of Chaetodontids to
I have treated my Heni for ten days with Quinine Sulfate. Then
added the Raccoon after the full ten day treatment and a few
additional days (for a total of about two weeks later). Bodies
and fins are clear of spots and there are no visible symptoms of
a parasite (rapid breathing, flashing, etc.). My concern here is
that my Heniochus has a very slight cloudy glaze over his eyes
<Likely "just stress" from the treatment... i.e.,
I do want to say that even when he had velvet from the start his
fins were never cloudy like this. After two weeks of being
treated with QS he has developed this (without any spots or
symptoms). Is this normal?
Shall I treat with something else? Or will this go away
<No and yes>
I have called National Fish Pharm. and when I spoke with the
Doctor, he said it could be from the treatment of QS.
<Yes; this is so>
There isn't much info regarding this med in your forums or at
all on the WWW. Bob, what do you think, I would like your
Thanks so much
re: Hey Crew..... BF exp.
Thanks a lot for the speedy reply and you are indeed the only one
to give me a solid answer on this subject.
Urgent Quarantine... Quinine
f' 1/24/09 Hello Crew, <Kayla> A few days ago, I
placed my marine fish in quarantine because a few were displaying signs
of ich. I have a Valentini puffer, six-line wrasse, "powder
brown"/white-cheek tang, hippo tang, and two percula clowns. After
much research, I decided to perform a freshwater dip with
formalin/malachite green and place into a 30 gallon quarantine with
hyposalinity (1.010) and 10 mg/L of Chloroquine phosphate. <Okay>
The first day went fine, but the second day the water became quite
cloudy. I have been testing the water qualities and have 0 ppm of
ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, with a pH of 8.3. Today, I found the
wrasse laying on the tank bottom respirating very rapidly. Again, the
ammonia (etc.) levels were all in check. A few hours later, the powder
brown was doing the same thing, with very rapid respiration. So, I
immediately did a 50% water change (with Chloroquine), but then decided
to put in a carbon filter in case the Chloroquine was the cause of
their problems. <Good moves... I'd also add more aeration> I
fear I will lose these guys. I am not sure what could be wrong; do you
have any ideas? <Mmm... some sort of proliferation of microbes...
perhaps a chemical interaction with the water, and?> Have you had
experience with Chloroquine causing this? <I have not> Do you
have any suggestions of what I can do quickly to save them? <Not
quickly, no. But doing what you have... water changes, adding carbon...
should... and I would look instead to restoring near NSW Spg and using
a copper cpd. here... chelated...> I cannot move them back into the
display tank very fast since the specific gravity is significantly
better. Thanks in advance for your advice, Kayla <Thank you for
sharing. Bob Fenner>
FAQ on Quinine Compounds 8/8/07 This is just some
info, since I just used some of this medication, and what I got to
experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the Quinine
Compound FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine
Hydrochloride. I used Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish
Pharmacy, which was very effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic,
apparently, to hermit crabs, which I suppose are resilient little
creatures, but it is very toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo
snails in the tank (or so I thought) which I removed and placed in my
20 gallon, but apparently I had 8, and within a half hour of adding the
Quinine Sulfate, the remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom.
It isn't an instant killer, because they were fine after I quickly
snatched them out and put them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote
this to tell about a specific experience. I can see where it can get
confusing, i.e. Copper = Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks;
Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for fish and inverts and most likely
sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish and sharks, bad for inverts.
Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine RXP = safe for fish and
inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :) Thanks again, gentlemen
& ladies... Thomas <Thank you for this input Tom. BobF>
- Greenex Strikes Again - Hello Crew, I have another question
my tank had caught ich and the guy at my LFS told me to use Greenex so
I did. Now all the LFS are telling me to throw away all my sand and
recycle my tank. The Greenex worked alright, done a great job of
killing ich, but it took my fishes, corals, and invertebrates too.
<Doesn't sound like a good cure to me... I would fire the fish
store that gave you this advice [to use the Greenex on your
Sigh... of all means I don't want to have to recycle my tank, so I
wanted to make sure about what you all think before I take action.
<You must re-cycle the tank at this point, but you probably
don't need to throw out your sand... run some activated carbon for
about a week or two and you should be good to go.> Thanks, Chris
<Cheers, J -- >
I dosed it with Greenex Thanks a lot.....btw, my tank came
down with ich! I dosed it with Greenex, and all the fish died the next
day. <Argghhh, I hate this product... not uncommon result> My
tank got milky white and I did a 50% water change. The cloudiness
continued for several day and is now dying down. I know I shouldn't
have but I decided to add another clarkii for the anemone, so far so
good. It's been 5 days and the clarkii seems OK. He took to the
anemone in about 1hour! He now sleeps inside it and it closes around
him like covers (really kewl). BTW all my corals lived through the
medication just fish casualties. Thanks for the tip on the sponge for
bubbles I know I need to be skimming, but I couldn't stand all the
bubbles. <Maybe relocate it to a sump?> I have a lot of brown
algae on the back glass would it hurt to leave it growing or should I
scrape it? <If it bugs you, scrape away... should turn green with
time, improving conditions> Hey thanks again for caring so much
about the hobby by taking your time with all these questions. Much
thanks, Joe >> <Be chatting. Bob Fenner>
Greenex and UV? Hi Bob- I am currently treating my 12 gallon
marine tank (fish/live rock/few inverts) with the product
'Greenex' by Aquatronics, for ich which developed on a new
fish. This product had failed me once in the past, but I caught the ich
within hours of first appearance this time and decided to give it
another shot. Surprisingly, the ich was off the new coral beauty the
very next day...and I am continuing treatment. my question: Is it safe
to use my UV filter while using the 'Greenex' product?
<Yes... that is, the UV does not affect the type of copper and
formalin mix which is Greenex...> I turned it off before treating in
fear of a poor reaction, but would like to use it if possible.
Unfortunately, the box mentions nothing regarding the issue and I have
been unable to acquire any company contact info for Aquatronics. Your
help is appreciated. Garin <The usual warning here re this product,
apparent "disappearance" of ich... the former is rather
toxic, has little safety/efficacy margin... the latter does just
"cycle off" initially until developing multi-generational
stages in a system... Please read through the FAQs on "Marine
Ich", and the MANY associated FAQs and article files to
"Marine Parasitic Disease" on our site:
www.WetWebMedia.com... and be prepared to enforce other treatment... at
least the environmental manipulation, vitamin prep. and cleaner ideas
gone over on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Re: Greenex and UV? Thanks Bob- I have read through nearly
all your FAQ's regarding Ich and the sort...very helpful! I will
begin the environmental manipulation, since I lost my electric scallop
to the Greenex anyways. Hopefully the Emerald and Scarlet crabs will
pull through the changes. <Me too... and please do write, express
your concerns re "labeling" to the fine folks at the
manufacturer (Aquatronics)...> I will also try a neon goby as a
cleaner, but fear the trigger will have him for lunch.
<Surprisingly, they don't eat them at once... recognizing
Gobiosoma as allies...?> Regarding nutrition...currently I have a 3
fish: a Picasso trigger and a valentini Toby/puffer (each about an inch
long), and my new coral beauty angel. What food/brand would you
recommend for the best nutrition (whether it be frozen, flake, or a
combination)...whatever would be best? <Please see the
"Foods/Feeding/Nutrition" section on the Marine Index on our
site: www.WetWebMedia.com> The angel doesn't seem too interested
in the 'brine shrimp plus' flake or the frozen blood worms the
others love. I thought I might try growing some Caulerpa algae in the
tank for him, since he ate all my hair algae. <Add more live
rock...> I will beat this ICH!! Thanks again, Garin <Good
attitude. Bob Fenner>
Greenex use The guy at the fish store says that he uses
Greenex to treat Ick in a system with live rock and sand...I thought I
remembered your website said that Greenex wasn't good.. when I got
home I checked and it said that it killed some fish...the bottle states
that it is safe for all fish, invert... and biological systems.. What
is the deal?? Cheryl <Unless the formula has changed, Greenex is not
non-toxic... too dangerous, responsible for many losses... Post this
msg. to the listservs for others opinions, experiences. Bob
Question about a disease My cowfish is swimming in circles
and around its own center horizontally. It happened after I treated it
with "Greenex" (Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride)
anti-protozoan agent against a marine Ick for five days every other
day. On the box of the medication, it says that it prevents exactly the
same conditions as the fish acquired afterwards: scratching and
darting. The fish is so disoriented that it cannot eat pieces of
octopus I feed it. What should I do now? <Change water, run
activated carbon in your filter flow path, lower specific gravity, toss
this toxic "medication" in the trash, use the search feature
(Google) on the wetwebmedia.com site and seek the commiseration of
other aquarists on the chatforum: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/
Otherwise, be patient and hopeful. Bob Fenner>
Another Greenex Burial Hi bob, I have a 38 gallon Berlin
system reef tank. I recently used Greenex, malachite green and quinine
HCl, to treat a tang that had white spots. The first two days of the
treatment were fine, I kept the filters running without the carbon,
turned off the protein skimmer, and continued use of Kalkwasser
solution, and reef solution. Then on the final day of treatment, I
decided to take out the filter block from one of my filters because I
had notice that it had been dyed blue, and I forgot to shake the bottle
of Greenex before adding it to the tank. After about two hours one of
my Foxface started heavy gilling at the bottom of the tank, 10 minutes
later it had gone from yellow to flush white started swimming upside
down, did a vertical loop and flopped dead on the live rock. My second
Foxface also succumbed despite an emergency water change, putting
carbon back in the filter, and turning on the protein skimmer. My tang
and clownfish were noticeably effected for 3 or 4 days but have now
come back to normal, and my blenny never seemed bothered. Was all this
a result of not shaking the bloody bottle of Greenex? Thanks for help
<More of just using this "medication"... the filter was
removing a modicum of the malachite and formalin (the ingredients)
lessening their toxifiying your fish... removing the filtrant hastened
the effect. Bob Fenner, who is glad to read of your other fishes
revival> sincerely Ben
Greenex WWM Team, I was reading through your Daily Q&A
and read a post where a user had his tanked wiped out the day after he
added Greenex and wanted to let you guys know that this exact thing
happened to me about 6 months ago. I had a couple of fish sick with ICK
and cloudy eye my pet shop recommended Greenex since I had some
invertebrates, well after dosing my 180 gallon tank with 180 drops of
Greenex the following day EVERYTHING was dead. I don't know what
they put in that stuff but it had wiped out my tank just like it wiped
out his, needless to say I've learned my lesson but paid a hefty
price tag for it.
Greenex I have a 50 gallon show tank with a Kole tang,
Spanish wrasse, a clown, a multicolor sea urchin, 2 damsels, 2 fire
gobies, and a flame angle. My clown got Ick a few days after I got him.
<That is why we always recommend any and all additions get a four
week quarantine period.> My friend that owns the pet store I bought
it from recommended Greenex. I had had problems with my fish dying
after application before but was convinced that it was my tank because
it was still new (about 3 months old). <It could also have been the
disease itself that killed the fish, not the treatment.> My friend
convinced me of it, but I took his advice because it worked on his
fish. I made sure this time to check my water before application, every
thing was perfect. I applied it as recommended, 1 drop per gallon. The
next day the wrasse, tang, urchin, clown, angel, and one goby was dead
along with one of my sand sifting stars. <Wow!> Is it just me or
is this stuff killing my fish? <I have had bad experience with this
product on invertebrates, so I would believe it is possible that your
urchin and starfish was effected, but too many other variables to say
for certain the medication killed the fish. The speed of the deaths
does lend credence to your suspicions, but it is also possible the
clownfish was infected with Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium
is harder to see and may have spread unnoticed. A quarantine/hospital
tank is a must. Please see www.WetWebMedia.com regarding set up and
proper use.> I mean none of these fish were sick. I have had most of
them for almost 6 months and no problems, no signs of being sick and
all of a sudden mass die off! I checked my tank again every thing was
fine. It seems every time I add this stuff to my tank all my sensitive
fish (expensive fish) die! <See, I would see the problem as every
time you add a unquarantined fish, it becomes sick in your tank,
infects everyone, you then treat the whole tank, and you experience
deaths.> Is it just me or can it be the Greenex? <It is possible,
but you have other forces at work here. -Steven Pro>
Treating Marine Parasites <<JasonC here, Bob is off
diving>> Mr. Fenner, sorry to bother you again, but.... The
symptoms on my fish were getting worse (ich and marine velvet) so we
got a skimmer, but then started using Rally and Kick Ich by Ruby Reef
to try to save fish and had to turn skimmer off. I ended up losing my
Gold rim tang, Heniochus, and true Percula. Obviously these meds
didn't work. I know you said to get Alkalinity right and keep water
quality excellent, lower salinity slowly) and raise temp. I did these
as well, Water is great, salinity is at 1.019 normally it is at 1.022
0r around there. Temp is around 80-82. We ran activated carbon through
tank to pull meds out and try something a little "harder". We
began using Greenex yesterday. My clown died but he wasn't going to
make it regardless. Now none of my fish are eating. They are all
hiding. I am now running carbon, protein skimmer and UV sterilizer to
pull meds out as I believe Greenex is quite toxic. <<UV won't
take any medications out of the water>> What else can I should I
do. <<probably not much, reflect on what has transpired.
Successful Marine tank keeping requires as much work before we put fish
in the tank as after. >> We are kind of thinking to try to let
the fish fight it off on their own. The shrimps are cleaning them and
salinity is lowered. Please help we are running out of options.
Remember we can't use hosp tank and we have inverts. <<I
don't recall the details - this is an important piece of gear,
perhaps more important than a UV filter>> If this were your tank
given what we can and cannot do, what would you do at this time?
<<wait it out, try to make arrangements for a quarantine system
for future residents>> We have two hippo tangs and one true
Percula left, two cleaner shrimps both working hard) I thought of neon
gobies, but am afraid of getting any new fish.. HELP!!!!!!
<<well, the neon gobies are pretty hardy and may be a good place
for you to get started again, however... you should really consider
carefully how you might squeeze in a quarantine system. This one item
could have saved you much of this heart-ache. Certainly a good idea to
just let things run their course and see how the Greenex works out. You
are quite correct about the toxicity of Greenex, and it probably should
have been avoided. In any case, keep running the carbon, try to
encourage your fish to feed but don't over-do it. Cheers, J --
Greenex...reef-safe? one more quick question. . . what is
about Greenex that makes it so harmful? <The active ingredients are
Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride (a fairly nasty
chemical).> Why do they say on the bottle that it is "reef
safe" if it has done so much harm? <It claims to be
"invertebrate safe", which is a pretty big difference. Many
larger inverts can tolerate the stuff, but much of the smaller life in
reef tanks and many corals will be harmed.> Is there ever a
situation where you would recommend using this stuff? <The best
situation for the use of any medication is in your bare bottom hospital
tank. -Steven Pro> <and adding that the malachite wreaks havoc
with filter feeders and many Octocorals>
Rapid Gill pumping.... Anthony, First off allow me to thank
you for all of the help that you have lent me over the course of the
last few days. Not only was your advice good, but it was delivered
expediently, and in such a manner as to not make me feel like a
complete dummy. Though I have been known to do extremely dumb things,
particularly with my fish tank. Many thanks. <very welcome and thank
you for your patience. I fear sometimes that I am too strict of an
aquarist and with my advice. Indeed, we all learn some hard lessons...
just trying to minimize them <smile>> Anyway here is what I
did. Before I read your last email I transported the tang to a 30
gallon tank I borrowed from a friend; <excellent... and though it
might still seem small to you for a fish this size, it will serve the
purpose admirably!> cleaned it out really well, and then used 30
gallons of water from the main tank to fill the QT. This was on Monday
night. I also treated him with a product called Greenex. Apparently
this is a combination of Malachite Green, and Quinine extract. Everyone
I spoke to said that this is an excellent all purpose antibiotic.
<it has a cure or kill reputation... aggressive but necessary at
times> It appears to have worked. Not only has the excessive gilling
ceased, but his appetite is back, and the Ick (or whatever it may have
been) appears to have receded somewhat. <excellent, and so soon. But
don't relax just yet. Medicated several days after last symptom
wanes if mfg recommendations allow and keep in QT for a minimum of 2
weeks> Will keep him QT'd for some time yet. With fingers
crossed, it appears that he is on the road to recovery. Which is good,
because he has quickly become a favored fish. <yes... a magnificent
fish. You made the right call> My Passer never appeared to become
ill, which is also very good. I will definitely take your advice on the
plastic tub QT setup. I completely overlooked such a simple solution.
<too easy to do <wink>... that's why we all brainstorm and
share ideas> Again thanks for everything. Michael <always
welcome, and thanks for sharing a positive update! Anthony>