Copper Safe, Not Safe for Everything  11/6/06
To the crew,
<Hi>
We all know that Copper Safe is supposed to do a number on marine ick, but what about other things like Soft corals (polyps, Leathers, Mushrooms)....does it have any affect on them at all? <Oh yes, and not a good one.>  Also does it have any effect on Copepods? <Yes again, and not one you want.> As always your answers are greatly appreciated.
Jon
Orlando, FL
<Get thee a QT/hospital tank for the benefit of your main tank.>
<Chris>

Re: Copper Safe, Not Safe for Everything Part II  11/6/06
A Hospital tank, I have, but...The result I'm trying to achieve is to kill off bristleworms, there are just too many of them, along with Glass anemones. <Copper is not a good solution, too indiscriminate.> I understand that if I don’t do something for them soon, they will multiply and take over the tank within months, if not weeks. <Maybe> What else can or should be done without infesting the hospital tank with bristleworms and glass anemones?
Jon
Orlando
<Cut back on feeding for the Bristleworms, and either try a Peppermint Shrimp or two or injecting the anemones with a Kalk solution.  Give a read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/aiptasia_impressions/aiptaisia_impressions.htm >
<Chris>

Copper/Biological Filter 10/24/06
Hello all,
<Hi>
Well, after 18 months of referring to your invaluable site I'm in the process of buying the "stuff" for my 227g reef tank. Including 2 quarantine tanks. One for fish (20g) and one for inverts (10g).
<Excellent>
Sooooo exciting and thanks for everything!!!
<Good luck on your new endeavor.>
Gear includes Iwaki pump, PFO MH lighting with VHO and moonlights, Euro-Reef CS250, Tunze streams and Spectrapure Maxpac RO/DI. And a refugium!    Couldn't have done it without you folks.
<Sounds Nice>
A question, please. I know copper kills the beneficial bacteria in a bio filter, right? <Mostly yes.>  But--my LFS's all use it in there fish systems continuously and tell me they have no problem with their systems having ammonia or crashing. How is this possible with copper being used all the time?
Thanks sooooo much, everyone. And Marina---what a doll.
<We like her.>
Excited in Lakewood, Ca. and love to you all
God Bless
Peter
<Whenever I have heard of a LFS doing this they are not running it at "full strength".  Probably why they have not had other problems.  To be honest I would not buy a fish that has been exposed to copper long term, pretty nasty stuff when used incorrectly.>
<Chris>

Copper/Biological Filter Part II 10/26/06
Thanks Chris,
<Sure>
But all 3 stores use it in their systems. And yes it is a lower dose. <A waste and stressful to the fish in my opinion.> But still, it doesn't effect their filtration???? Or, lower doses are not toxic to biological filter?  <Not as toxic.>
Thanks again
Peter
<Chris>

Copper and Live Rock 9/25/06
Hi Bob,
<Hi, Chris here>
Is it true that copper can kill your biological filtration system?  (Live rock, Bio Wheels). <Yes>  I have a 55 gal.  FOWLR, emperor 400, SeaClone 150 skimmer, 18 watt turbo twist, 2 Hagen 802 powerheads.  I can not keep more than 3 fish alive in there then they start dying off. <Tank infected with Ich.> My local source told me that the copper killed my live rock.  Could that be the case...
<Probably>
Thanks
Aaron
<Chris>

Re: Ick Ick Ick   7/25/06
Thanks, I am going to go the copper route then. Is Cupramine ok?
<Yes... one of the best chelated products here>
One last question please. Should I just leave the live rock currently in the 35 in a holding tank for 6 weeks to ensure the ick is not still there or can I just put the rock in freshwater for a few hours to ensure it is clean of any ick?
<Mmm, I'd likely leave it in place if you can manage to leave this system fallow for at least a month>
Thanks for your time!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick Ick Ick, Cu use and skimming   7/25/06
Sorry Bob,
<No worries>
I cannot find a definitive answer for this. Is it ok to leave my skimmer on in the quarantine tank after the Copper is added?
<Actually, need to shut the skimmer off... lest it remove the copper even more quickly than other processes combined. Bob Fenner>

Treatment of Gobies, Copper, Cupramine   7/10/06
Dear Mr. Fenner
  Thank you so much for your kind reply a little while ago, when I wrote to you regarding the terrible incident I had with my Clown Goby having a horrific reaction to copper.  I thought that I would let you know that although my subsequent water changes prevented any further damage to her, she never really recovered, and died 5 days later.
<Thank you for this update>
I had been hoping that as she made it through 48 hours, she might recover, but I think the damage was too severe.
  I also wrote to the company who makes the copper treatment, to see what their advice was on treating Gobies with copper.  I thought that you would be interested to see their reply, as they seem to think that copper does not have any ill affects on Gobies.  I would be interested to see what you think, before I reply to them:
   "Cupramine works great on most copper sensitive fish like puffers and Angels.
You will find that puffers are mush more sensitive to copper than gobies.  We have had many people use Cupramine on gobies and puffers without a problem.
I'm sorry for what your goby is going through but I can assure you it is not from the proper use of Cupramine.
One dose of Cupramine (1 ml per 10.5 gallons) will result in a copper concentration of 0.25 mg/L.  I suspect that your fishes reaction is a
result of disease or possibly you used Cupramine inappropriately.
<Possibly>
Here are some questions that may help us figure out what occurred:
Where did you get the water for the quarantine tank?
Was it freshly made salt water?  Did you check to make sure it matched pH, temperature, salinity, and that the ammonia and nitrite were at zero?
<Good questions, concerns>
Did you add any other chemical with the Cupramine?  Water conditioner, medication, ammonia remover.
Did you have a UV sterilizer running?
<This will remove the copper...>
Did you do anything that could have stressed the Goby prior to being placed in the aquarium?
Freshwater dip
Are you sure that the fish has ich or velvet?  What you describe sounds like Brooklynella.  (rapid progression, string-like material hanging off the fish)
<A valid concern. Copper compounds will not treat this protozoan complaint... but it is rare on Gobiids/oids>
Please let me know the answers to these questions and I will help you the best I CAN.
<A very nice response indeed>
Best Regards,
Seachem Tech Support"   
  Thank you for your time and help once again.
  Kind regards
  Claire
<Thank you for sending this along. There is much to know/relate concerning copper's use... Not a simple, use so much of this, in such and such condition/s. Bob Fenner>

Copper Treatment...Tangs And Other Sensitive Fish  6/21/06
I'm about to start treating my purple tang, firefish goby, royal Gramma, and neon goby with copper to rid my tank of ich once and for all.  The cleaner
shrimp and garlic helped, but the ich would always reemerge after a few days. I have been reading for WWM for the last 2 hours about copper
treatment to make sure I do it right.  From my understanding measuring the amount of copper in the water is essential, especially when dealing with
tangs and other scale-less fish/es.
<Yes>
I also read that many people seem to have trouble reading levels of chelated copper and that test kits are specific to either chelated or ionic copper.  I have a bottle of CopperSafe (chelated) and a bottle of SeaCure (ionic).  Which would you recommend I use?  I also have a Salifert copper test kit on the way in the mail.
<To measure the concentration of Copper Safe, a chelated or total copper test kit is required.  All readings should be based on the total copper or chelated
copper results and not the free copper results. The Salifert Test Kit measures dissolved or weakly chelated copper.  Strongly chelated copper will measure very low or not at all with the Salifert Kit.  I believe the Copper Safe is strongly chelated.  Bob, do you agree?> <<Is, do. RMF>>
Do you know which (if either) type of these two copper medications would the Salifert test measure more accurately?
<The Sea Cure would be my choice.>
Can I rely on this test kit?
<Yes, a very accurate kit.>
After reading several letters, it seems like many people treat the bare hospital tank as directed on the bottle but then get strange results when measuring with a test kit.
<I'm guessing the proper kit isn't being used for the type copper they are using.>
Also, I'm still confused as to the amount (ppm) and duration of treatment for tangs and other sensitive fish.     0.15-0.25 ppm of ionic or
1.5-2.0 ppm of chelated seems the standard, tangs and firefish too??
<I would monitor the copper level very close and maintain at 1.5ppm with these types of fish.>
Twenty-one consecutive days is what most people seem to recommend.  Then again I also read that Bob stated he would not treat a tang for this long and drop
treatment to 14 days instead.
<Bob, is this dated info, or can tangs be treated at 1.5ppm for 21 days safely?> <<Better to limit to minimum dose, exposure time. RMF>>
Thank you in advance
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>

Re: Crypto ... carefully deciphering copper/cupric levels, testing... carefully   6/22/06
Thanks Jason for your quick reply!
<Dave, James answered your query.>  
I failed to mention this morning that when I saw the problem had gotten much worse overnight, I sped things up and added another half dose of
Cupramine to the system.  The next half dose will bring me up to the .5 mg/L.  Yes, I am watching this with a FasTest kit, but it's terribly hard to differentiate the colors.
<Yes, the Salifert is much better in this regard.>
I'm keeping a very close eye on my dosing levels as a secondary precaution and am getting another test kit today to help me make sure I have it right.  
When I stopped at the house today over lunch, I found that the spots had dropped from the Butterfly and the Hippo.  My lion is still moderately affected, but it's not bad.  
<Should improve.>
I noticed that my Red Coris seemed very lethargic and was laying half in, half out of the substrate.  Since he was not visibly affected by the
Ich, I filled a QT quickly with 10 gallons of new seawater I mixed this morning (yes, yikes), PH and temperature adjusted and moved him into it
to get him out of the copper.  Do you feel that the Red Coris Wrasse has a lower than usual tolerance for copper?
<My opinion, yes.>
Maybe I just panicked.  My lion seems a little more sluggish than usual.  Again, maybe it's just that I am unusually vigilant when I am dealing with a "coppered" system.
I've heard that lions have a low copper tolerance. Do you agree with this,
<Do not believe so, lionfish are pretty tough customers.  Problem is, if you are having trouble determining the copper level with the test kit, then
we are not sure what your level actually is.>
and do you feel that the copper levels we are dealing with are worth exposing them to the potentially stressful QT environment?  
<QT should be a little less stressful than a coppered tank.>
Most specifically I am trying to confirm that the Cupramine levels we are dealing with (.5 to .6 mg/L) are safe for:
Red Coris Wrasse
Volitans Lionfish
Sailfin Tang
Pearlscale Butterfly
Blue Hippo Tang
Snowflake Eel
<Should be if that is the true copper level.>
I think I'll go with your advice and continue the main tank's treatment for a full 3-4 weeks.
<Yes, the length of treatment is critical to ensure all parasites have been eradicated.>
Given the progress I've made today perhaps I can gain a foothold on the lifecycle by maintaining copper and adopting a watch and wait stance.
<Yes, that is all you can do right now.  In the future, do QT new arrivals for 30 days to be sure the animal is disease free.>
Thanks again,
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Dave  

Please help - Treatment of Gobies   6/19/06
Dear Mr. Fenner
  I am writing to you in great distress, in the hope that you might be able to educate me further in the type of medications that can't be used on Clown Gobies.
  With all the best intentions in the world, I put my Citron Goby in to my quarantine tank  to treat for a whitespot/velvet infection.  I started to treat her with Copper - Seachem Cupramine, to be exact.   I only put the first days dose in.  Everything seemed fine.  Later that day I then went to browse the web for more information on the Green Clown Gobies I was thinking of buying.  I stumbled across your very informative webpage for this breed, and noted, with horror that under the disease section of your Gobies page you write,
  "Gobioids for the most part are relatively disease resistant, with the exception of one type of disease, environmental. Though they have cycloid or ctenoid scales, they have about the same intolerance of harsh chemical treatments as "naked" fishes. Many more are bumped off from copper, malachite and formalin- containing medicants than from the infectious diseases they're used against."
<Yes>
  In sheer panic, I rushed downstairs to see the horrific sight of my clown goby.  Her skin had literally started to dissolve, and there were parts of her fins eroding at the edges, and places where he skin had bubbled up.  Most horrifically, there were two places where the copper had eaten in to her body.  She also had what looked like red blood lines to the rear of her gills ... internal bleeding? Words cannot describe how devastated I am.   
  I rushed to do a 50% water change, using my main tank water, and started to run a PolyFilter, in order to significantly dilute the copper solution.  
<Good moves>
  30 hours on, she is still alive, and there has been no further damage to her skin that I can see.  I know that it is unlikely that she will survive this ordeal, but I am desperate to do all I can, and to make her as comfortable as possible.  I am daily testing the water parameters.  The QT is blacked out, and I am starting to lower the salinity, in order to keep and bacterial infections that could arise from the damage, at bay.
  Yours is the only website I have found that indicates towards this problem with Gobies.
<Mmm... a speculation re the "capacity", utility of the Net at this juncture. I and others have written (magazine articles, books) touching on this topic/issue for many years>
I have purchased a copy of your book, and have read there what you have written about this also.  
<Oh!>
  My very experienced LFS also had not heard of this problem.
  I was wondering whether you are able to tell me if this is a normal reaction by my clown goby to this treatment.
<It is. Such "toxic" treatments, even with chelated copper solutions need to be carefully measured at about the near lowest physiological dose (0.15 ppm free cupric ion equivalent)>
Also, does this happen to all Gobies?  
<Nearly all... though smaller individuals, species are more direly and quickly mal-affected>
I understand that this reaction is caused by copper, malachite and Formalin-containing medicants.  Does that mean any use of those mentioned substances, even at very low doses?
<One can... in actual practice these materia-medica are used by public aquariums, wholesalers... daily>
  Would there be any difference in reaction from chelated and non-chelated copper?
<Mmm, oh yes... The free cupric ion is really the only important measure in both/all cases. Utilizing sequestered compounds only/allows for a more "steady" dosage... The chelated is better for hobbyists and commercial settings in almost all cases. Free copper (sulfate) solutions are of value for raceway, open, culture, some high-tech. settings>
  Why is the Gobiodon reaction not a more widely know fact?
<Mmm... ours seems an esoteric field... My next guess is that there are so few aquarists that "make it to" the level of serious keeping of this huge group of fishes that they have little chance/opportunity (as yet) to communicate their observations, findings>
  I would be very appreciative of any further information and help that you could give me.
  Kind regards
  Claire Read-Ball
<I do sincerely hope that you remain active in this hobby field... And strongly encourage you to pen an article for sale to the print and electronic media in our interest for your and all's edification. Bob Fenner>

Re: Re-infestation of Marine Ich, Copper(Safe) use   6/1/06
Hi Bob and Crew,
<Laurie>
Help!  I need your advice again!
It's been a week since our first correspondence and here's what's been done and is going on:
*  All fish caught, dipped and moved to 29 gallon hospital tank on May 24 (we were up until 1 a.m.!)
*  Scott's Fairy Wrasse didn't do too well, but survived (he had spots before dipping).  He seems to have recovered and is now eating and breathing very well.  He had a few spots left; those are now gone, so the parasite is now in its second stage?
<Possibly... you did treat this tank? With?>
*  Bristletooth Tomini Tang died the next afternoon (he had spots before dipping and was breathing with difficulty)
*  Goby jumped out of the tank three times; I was there to rescue him the first two times, but not the last time :^(  He died on May 29.
*  I'm using CopperSafe.  It states that copper test should show 1.5 - 2.0 ppm.  I've found that I need to add more than the dosage documented in the instructions to get up to this level.  I'm using SeaChem test kit.  
<Yes and good>
*  Water is disgustingly cloudy.  I did 1/3 water change two nights ago, with no improvement (and added the appropriate amount of copper and tested to be sure).  
(Tank is running with an AquaClear 70 (sans carbon) and two powerheads - water should be moving at around 700 gph.)
*  Blenny is doing OK.  Thankfully, he is eating Seaweed Selects.
*  Remaining fish are doing well (Banggai and Pajama Cardinalfish and Yellow Candy Hogfish)
<And... you are testing for ammonia, nitrite?>
Here's where I need some advice.  CopperSafe states to treat for 5 - 30 days.  Article says start reducing copper after 2 weeks.  I don't really understand the article, as I read that parasites take 5 - 28 days before swimming to find a host.  As the copper levels are reduced, will it still be an effective parasite killer?
<Mmm, no... needs to be kept at a therapeutic dosage/concentration for the duration of treatment>
I thought not, which is why it's important to keep the correct level of copper??
<Yes>
So, if these were your fish, would you treat full-strength for 30 days, or start reducing after 2 weeks?
<Keep at full-strength>
If reducing, would you reduce via water changes only, or by adding carbon back to the filter?
<Likely just time going by and water changes...>
Thank you.  I really appreciate your help.
Regards,
Laurie O.
<Bob Fenner>

Copper, basses/soapfish  - 05/29/06
Hi again, I have another quick question for you. Can you treat the sixline grouper with copper safe?
<Yes>
Have a feeling you can't. I already dosed my 60 gallon tank with 75ml as per instructions, but I do not think I did the
right thing as the sixline is getting some white on him "draping". Should I get this stuff out of the tank ASAP? It has only been in the tank for two days. I have some poly filter I could put in. Thanks Again
<Please see WWM re whatever you're trying to actually treat here, copper use... Bob Fenner>

Soapfish Copper Treatment...Panic - 05/30/06
Hi, I need to know if you can treat the Soapfishes with Copper Safe.
<<As far as I am aware, yes...though I would proceed with caution/observe the fish closely for adverse reactions/distress>>
I have a clown grouper and sixline that are in a tank I have treated with Copper Safe and think I may have done the wrong thing.
<<If this is the display tank then yes, you have damaged your biological filter if nothing else>>
They just ate a good meal - so maybe I am wrong, but with the threads on your site make me think otherwise.
<<The result of a knee-jerk reaction.  You don't state why you thought you needed to medicate the fish...but is obvious you didn't research beforehand>>
Should I Poly-Filter out the copper?  Not trying to rush you, I
know it is a holiday and all - but my groupers are really cool and I don't wanna lose them.
<<Understood...Yes, I would do a 30% water change and add carbon/Poly-Filter to your filter flow path...and move the fish to a hospital/quarantine tank if they truly need medicating>>
I really appreciate your info.
Thanks - Dan
<<Regards, EricR>>
Also, my water is in good shape - barely any nitrate, but I don't think you can get it to zero while feeding groupers.
<<Indeed...a nitrate reading below 15ppm is generally considered "acceptable" on most FO/FOWLR systems.  Keep a close eye on this and perform water changes as needed as you will likely see a rise in nitrates until your bio filter recovers.  EricR>>

Soapfish Copper Treatment...Panic II - 05/30/06
Thanks for the reply, I woke up this morning and everyone looks better.
<<Ahh, good>>
I added the CopperSafe on Friday and it's been in a little over two days.  I initially treated the fish this way because they have Ick that I think was brought in by two damsels.  I did the old pour the water in the bucket and dump the fish in method.
<<I see...>>
I know, big mistake.  Shows you healthy looking fish are not always what they seem.
<<Indeed>>
Anyway... I put the CopperSafe directly in the tank because I am starting a new system in a couple of weeks and figured it doesn't really matter.
<<...?>>
So I had about 30lbs. of live rock and 20lbs. of live sand in the tank, is it all doomed or will it recover?
<<Will likely be fine>>
I also did not take the carbon out of my filtration when I added the CopperSafe, so in affect...did I weaken the treatment?
<<Mmm, yes>>
The carbon was only a couple of days old.  Don't mean to go on, it's just  that I can't really get good answers anywhere else.
<<I hope I'm being helpful>>
So I am going to take your advice and do a 30% water change and add a new Poly-Filter.
<<Excellent...the Poly-Filter will/should show some blue coloration if there is any remaining copper in the system>>
Thanks -Dan
<<Regards, EricR>>

Soapfish Copper Treatment...Panic III - 06/01/06
Hey Eric thanks again...
<<You're welcome>>
You are definitely being helpful; while on that subject... let me pick your brain some more.
<<Okay>>
The reason I said it didn't matter about treating the whole display tank was actually thought out.  1 - I am planning on getting the copper out via water change and Poly-Filter, and 2 - I just purchased a 135 gallon (to make fish only) tank with wet/dry, sump deal.
<<cool!>>
I decided now though that I would like to take my 25 gallon reef and transfer it to the 60 gallon.  I am wondering if the live rock that was treated in the 60 gallon will be ok left in as I make it into a reef set up.
<<There's a good chance the rock is fine...but this is a great opportunity to use new rock for its fresh mineral content/bio diversity>>
I have a really awesome 25 gallon reef tank and things are growing too big for the tank.  I want to transfer the whole tank, but wonder even after water changes and Poly-Filter if that is enough or will my reef stuff be in danger?
<<Mmm, may not me worth the risk for you then...>>
I am thinking the CopperSafe will be gone or mostly gone and it should be fine? I think.
<<Considering the single dose was quickly diluted/removed by the presence of carbon in your system there's good chance all will be fine...but the final decision is up to you mate>>
Thanks again Eric - Dan
<<Cheers, EricR>>

Copper  - 04/27/06
Dear Mr. Bob Fenner
<Rachel>
Thanks a lot on the last reply. I need a bit more of your valuable help. Do you think that my tank’s beneficial bacteria will adapt to chelated copper and grow over time even though copper is still in the tank?
<Can to some extent, yes>
And also is chelated copper effective to treat a tank because some people say that ionic copper is better?
<Is actually only ionic copper that is much use here. The chelating/sequestering is valuable to keep a ready dosage in solution... put another way, the use of a chelate allows one to place a much larger, slowly-de-chelating concentration in place...>
Why? It’s pretty hard to find a good test kit for chelated copper. Do you know of any good brand that’ll do the job because Seachem test kit didn’t work at all?
<There are several... see/use the Net re>
From the day that I got my Bannerfish it only eats dried worms and the LFS said it’s not that nutritious. I heard that Vitamin C is really good for fish so is it alright if I dip dried worms in Vitamin C and feed it?
<Mmm, marine fishes drink appreciable amounts of their environment... and there are ancillary benefits of adding vitamins directly to the water... This is what I would do here>
Also I got a Vitamin C liquid from a Pharmacy and this certain brand is for little children. Its pure Vitamin C. Do you think it’ll be good for fish? Best regards.
<All Vitamin C molecules are identical, of use>
Rachel
<Bob Fenner>

Copper, Bubbles & Yellow Color  - 04/23/06
Hi Mr. Bob Fenner
<Rachel>
First of all your site is great! Learnt a lot and still learning.
<Ah, good>
I have an 80G Marine tank running for about 3 months now. It’s a fish only tank with one Volitans Lionfish, a Bannerfish, a Clarkii Clownfish and one Klunzinger's Wrasse.
<This last... the Thalassoma wrasse is a beauty but requires quite a bit of space to move to stay happy...>
I have cycled it and was running great for a couple of months but recently developed some problems. First thing is that I saw 2 white little spots of my clown and one spot on my Banner’s fin after about one month of no signs of disease can that happen?
<Oh yes>
So I was worried and called the LFS they offered me Chelated Copper immediately so I came home added it directly to my tank as instructed.
<Mmm... not to your main tank...>
I took the Activated Carbon out of my Canister and switched off the protein skimmer following the instructions of the LFS as they told me it removes copper. Did I do a bad job?
<Quite likely...>
Will the Copper affect my Beneficial Bacteria?
<Yes>
Because there is a slight detection of Nitrite? And I don’t have a QT. Also my water is slightly yellow for the last couple of weeks and I don’t know why?
<The lack of carbon, skimming, the copper effects...>
Is it a sign of overfeeding? What can I use to get rid of the yellow?
<See the above>
My tank has developed a lot of bubbles recently on the surface although I have two powerheads running smoothly and also have a powerful airstone? Is it because of the copper?
<Yes... the effects thereof>
Is there anyway to stop this bubble collection ??
<See the above...>
  My fish seems to be okay as they behave normally but my lion seems to rest a lot but he eats very well? Do you think this is normal?
<... perhaps>
And how do you calculate whether a fish is rapid breathing?
<Counting with the use of a time device... tapping a pencil on a piece of paper if rapid...>
I’m planning to add live rock very soon but I don’t to how to do that with copper in my water is there any way to remove copper before adding live rocks?  Please let me know what you think of my situation. Hope to here from you soon. Thanx a billion.
<Mmm, used to be millions... more evidence of inflation. Your answers and many more related items of use are posted on WWM... Please start reading here: http://wetwebmedia.com/copperfa.htm
and on to the linked files at top. Bob Fenner>
Rachel

Copper Treatment    3/17/06
Hi there, <Hello.>   
  It is me again. I would like to tap your vast experience on the copper treatment for the following kinds of fish which I currently have and experience a Ich outbreak.  Would they survive a copper treatment? & which one I should NOT treat with copper or reduce dosage?
  1. Regal Angel
  2. Coral Beauty -- a dwarf angel
  3. Firefish
  4. Cleaner Wrasse ( have been with me for 1.5 years).?  <Lucky you.>
  5. Red Shoulder Fairy Wrasse
<All can be treated with copper, just be sure to monitor with a copper test kit.  Doses should not exceed 0.2ppm.  Do google our web site for copper treatment info.>   
  Your help is much appreciated.  <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
  Regards.

Copper in FOT.. Workable Solution?   3/16/06
Hi Bob & Team. I wish you all well. You have been GOOD to our hobby. Couldn't have done it without you guys.
   <Glad to help... though it's obvious it is getting past time to "cast our nets" out for more help... We're up some two k sessions per day over a few weeks ago...>
  I would like to confirm the following treatment regime before I carry it out & I look forward to your usual prompt good quality response.
   <Will try to deliver>
  In my situation  when there was Ich/Marine Velvet outbreak in a bare-bottom FOWLR tank. All LRs had been removed from the tank (making it FOT) and it was observed that bio filter not adversely affected as there was no ammonia surge. Is it possible to go for copper treatment in this FOWLR turned FOT (Fish Only Tank)?
<Yes... with a few caveats. Copper compounds and free cupric ion can/will suppress nitrification... so ammonia et al. must be monitored, new water stored for change-outs...>
Since there is no Live Rocks and no Live sands (to begin with), With pumps, powerheads, skimmers and chiller as only gears in water, I assume it is alright to go copper treatment in main display. Can I get your confirmation? Would copper kill all my existing nitrifying bacteria?
   <Likely so... though with careful application (a few times a day)... using chelated... this effect can be more/less managed>
  Treating Main display tank in this manner will serve as good alternative, in my case of FOT, compared to catching all 6 fish out and quarantine them in 3 x QTs + fallow the main tank (which is FOT now). Not to mention the poisonous ammonia/nitrite issues that pop up often in new QTs all the time. For your info, the LR are put aside in a rubber maid bucket to keep alive during this treatment period.
   <Yes... one other of those aforementioned caveats: the amount of "interfering" biological material in your "live substrate removed" system is going to absorb some of the copper material... Much more than a purposeful "treatment tank">
  Another question to ask is: what is your experience in Copper Safe (Mardel) vs. Cupramine (Seachem)?
<Both are fine, reliable/consistent products. Have used vast quantities of both>
I have both and I am not sure which one to use for treating my FOT main tank. From what I read from instructions, Copper Safe requires 30 days of treatment and Cupramine is 14 days. Should I then infer that Copper Safe (Chelated Copper Sulfate) is less concentrated and slower? If I want faster treatment, I should go with Cupramine?
   <Both... should be used for the same period of time... somewhere between these two time-frames actually...>
  Copper Safe needs to be effective from 1.5ppm - 2 ppm (from instruction) and Cupramine is 0.5ppm. Now, I am confused on why such great discrepancy? Not to mention that your site here says 0.2-0.3 is ideal.
   <Let's try to clear this up (for sure) here... the last values are for Cu++, free cupric ion... the two sets ahead are for (broken by testing protocol) chelated copper compounds... Is this clear?>
  One last point is I intend to change to bigger tank as my fish is going to outgrow this 2.5 year old tank. So no reef tank set up will be done on this current tank. Good reason for me to go treatment this way. Hope you can see my rationale.
   <Yes, though, assuredly, copper is "used up", almost always becomes complexed/lost within reasonable time frames from use in such systems... weeks, months after use such gear can be used with non-vertebrates.>
  Thanks in advance for your helpful advice, as always. :).
   <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Copper and Silicone  03/9/06
Will CopperSafe effect <affect> my silicone?  <The silicone will absorb some copper but no harm will come to the silicone.  James (Salty Dog)>
Pls help

Copper & Epsom Salt?  - 03/05/06
Hi, Bob, <James today>
It's me again. I have asked questions on Ich-Attack, Hyposalinity & Epsom salt ..etc.  and you have been such a patient consultant to have provided me with the effective answers and suggested me to the route of chelated copper.
Well, I will follow your advice to administer chelated copper sulfate ("CopperSafe" from Mardel) treatment on the sick fish in my FOWLR ( I will remove the Live rocks first).
<<...  there is still "too much" other "stuff" here to use copper. RMF>>
The questions I have for you are :_
1. As I have treated an Anthias with Epsom salt for past few days, would chelated copper sulfate interfere/react with Epsom Salt ( I believe is Magnesium Sulfate) and cause any toxic compound or making copper toxic for the fish? <Should not.>   
2. What's the best way to eliminate toxic ammonia/nitrite arising from administering copper treatment in aquarium? Would Amquel+ from Kordon be able to do the job here or would it  interfere with the copper to make it toxic? <It shouldn't, but I would do small water changes instead and add CopperSafe to the new water.  Do use a copper test kit to ensure an effective dose is maintained.> Please advise.
3. Is it true that copper will be toxic in low pH? <Should not, and you shouldn't allow the pH to drop to begin with.>   
Best regards & thanks in advance. You have been most helpful!! <You're welcome, and do search/read on copper treatment on our site.  James (Salty Dog)>

Copper treatment  - 3/1/2006
Hi Crew,
<Chris>
Perhaps you guys can help me.  I've been treating my fish only marine system with Cupramine for an outbreak on ich.
<... not a good idea to treat the main tank itself...>
I've tested the levels with both the SeaChem kit and the Salifert kit and it’s always been about 0.4
<A bit high... have you read on WWM re?>
On day 3 of the treatment I lost a regal angel and my other tangs and butterfly’s were shaking, darting around and most stopped feeding.
<... poisoned>
  I've tested all the water parameters and apart from the copper (0.4) they are all okay.  On day 4 I lost a yellow tang and then a red tail pearl scale.  Obviously I stopped the treatment and removed the copper with PolyFilter but I am totally baffled by the strong reaction the fish had to a well regarded product (Cupramine).  
The ich was not serious enough to explain the deaths and now the copper has been removed the fish are almost back to normal and yes the ich is still there.  Here's the thing, i am running a sulphur denitrator on the system and I’m wondering if you are aware of any toxic reactions which may have occurred when copper mixed with the sulphur in the low ph of the reaction chamber.
<... could be>
I may be completely off on this explanation but I know these units are fairly new and if this was somehow linked to my experience I’d like to warn others.  One last point, I stripped down the denitrator and cleaned the sulphur beads with water.  I reconnected it to the system after the copper had been removed and whilst I was commissioning it i.e. letting the water run through it fully open the fish started flicking and shaking again before I finally switched it off.  Any idea what’s happening?
Many thanks
Chris
<For reasons gone over and over on materials archived on our site, I would not treat a display tank as you have done. The free copper (what you're likely relating, measuring) is too high for the species listed... How to put this... there is a narrow range of efficacy/toxicity with copper... "Some is good, too little is worthless, a bit too much is poison". Read my friend. Bob Fenner>

Cupramine, filter bed safe?  - 3/1/2006
Greeting WetWeb people!  I hope all is well with you.  My  question concerns Seachem Cupramine.  I have a Royal Gramma with ich (he  was the only guy in
the 24g reef tank).  I have removed him and placed him  in a 10 gallon with a few pieces of live rock,
<...>
and a marineland bio-wheel 100  filter (tanks up to 20g).   
Here are the questions finally after much, much reading in the Copper  FAQ's.
Is this going to effect my bio-wheel or my live rock bio-filter at  all?  
<Mmm, yes, likely will interrupt nitrification... You'll have to monitor, have new water ready for change-outs>
Seachem Tech via telephone said it won't be enough to be terribly  concerned due to it being ionic and amine based.
<Only experience will/can tell...>
I wanted to get you guys  and gals take on this.
<Mmm, a bit less effect (on "average") than free/ionic copper use, but still will likely subtend...>
Obviously some copper will be absorbed by the live  rock,
<You'll want to remove this... will absorb almost immediately>
but that's ok...I'll be testing regularly.
<... try it...>
By the way, would you  truly go with the Cupramine, or the other Seachem product called  Paraguard?  I've also read of
some people having good success with it  against ich (In a QT of course!!!)  
Thanks all for your time and  advice!!!
<... depends on a mix of variables... Both are efficacious... but would try one OR the other. Bob Fenner>

Copper removal  - 02/27/06
I had an outbreak of marine ich right and added copper. I want to reduce the copper levels soon because I recently installed a UV filter. I know I can't turn it on until the copper is gone but I also have very porous volcanic rocks as decoration. Is there a special way to clean them to get rid of the copper it absorbed or should I just take them out? <Read FAQ's here for info.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/curemovalfaqs.htm>
Thanks. <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>

Skimmers/Operation & Disease/Treatment   2/22/06
Hello, <Hello> I got two quick question I hope you can help me with. First, what is the difference between wet skimming and dry skimming and
which is better for nutrient export? <Dry skimming produces dryer foam and exports nutrients more efficiently.  Wet skimming generally produces a tea like color in the collection cup and not as productive as dry skimming.>
Second, I have a ten gallon hospital tank and I am treating my blue tang for marine ich using Mardel Coppersafe and I need to make a small water change
(2 gallons enough?). <Yes.> After the water change do I reapply more Coppersafe or
just leave the 12 ml I added in the beginning?  Thanks and you guys rock. <You should use a copper test kit when using copper to ensure an effective dose is always present and  monitor on a daily basis.  Tangs are sensitive to copper and overdosing can cause more harm than good.  James (Salty Dog)>
Walid Medications/Copper/Dosing
So when testing copper, what level would be too high when using Copper
medication? <You should strive to  maintain 0.20ppm, no higher.  James (Salty Dog)>

Disease/Ich ... actually copper use  02/12/06
Dear Crew,
Thanks again for the help and your quick reply. <You're welcome.>
Just a few more questions.  First, I used the recommended dosage of Copper Safe which brought the level to 2.0 total ppm of chelated copper.<I hope it's not 2.0.  Should be 0.2ppm.>  According to the test kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals)  this is total copper.  Is this sufficient? <Yes.> I'm asking because even after a couple of days the fish are still scratching even after an initial fresh-water dip before being quarantined.  <The 0.2 level needs to be maintained for at least 21 days. Not going to see overnight results.  Do check copper level at least daily and adjust. James (Salty Dog)> <<Doh! 2.0... RMF>>

Disease/Ich  - 2/11/2006
Dear Crew, <Hello Jeff.>
Thank you for all the great info I've learned since I discovered your website. <You're welcome.>
My tank came down with ich and I've moved everyone into a q-tank with the exception of my hermits.  I was wondering if they need to move also?  Do hermits harbor ich parasites? <No to both.>
Also, should I change treatment to ionic copper?  The q-tank was treated with chelated copper (Copper Safe).  I've ordered a copper test kit from a supplier to the water industry so I can get accurate readings. <Whether you use chelated or ionic you still need to test daily to ensure effective levels of copper are present.  The copper choice is yours to make.>
One last thing, if I let my show tank sit fallow for a month with nothing in it (meaning nothing excreting into the water), how do I keep my biological media from dying off? <Your hermits should keep some level of bacteria active.  I wouldn't put all the fish back at once though.  Do one a day starting with the most timid.  This will allow the bacteria to adjust without getting to dangerous levels.>
Thanks again for your help. <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Sincerely,
Jeff

Ich / copper / knowledge transference  2/7/06
Hello,
<Hello>
I'm about to fire up the QT tank and treat all of my fish for Ich. I have a compressed Toby and want to double check and make sure he will be okay with Copper Sulfate?  I think all of my other fish should be fine.
<I'd keep the therapeutic dose at the low end (0.15-0.20) and use a chelated brand>
Also, how long should I treat with copper in the QT tank before I start adding carbon to remove the copper?  
Thanks
David
<Much, much more to state here... and is stated on WWM... see there re Crypt, Copper use... Bob Fenner>

Copper overdose in Purple Tilefish?   1/21/06
Bob,
<Art>
I recently purchased a Purple Tilefish, who was eating like a pig, four times a day. The second day, I noticed a light outbreak of ich on him,
<... no quarantine>
so I began to treat him with Seachem Cupramine (He is sharing a 30 gal. quarantine tank,
<Oh!>
only glass and water, with a Comet, who has shown no symptoms). I built up to the recommended dose at half the manufacturer's recommended schedule, and as I got nearer to 6L (the total dose recommended for 30 gal., in order to reach 0.5 ppm), I dosed in increments of one fourth the manufacturer's directions. I did this
because there is very little info available on the Purple Tilefish, and I suspected he was sensitive to copper.
<You are correct here>
He tolerated the dose with no side effects whatsoever to a total of 4.25L (between 0.25 and 0.5 ppm), but the morning after I added another .75L, to a total dose of 5.25L,
he was listless, stopped begging for food, stopped eating, started twitching his head, and he has the darkened, splotchy areas on his body
(spine and around the eyes) that I have come to associate with copper poisoning (yes, I have done this before).
<Yes...>
I immediately performed a 10 gal. (one third) water change, and installed a couple of poly filters to remove the copper. A day later, he is still alive, but also is still not eating, still twitching, still has the dark areas, and one eye appears to be slightly popped, although not cloudy.
<All symptomatic...>
The Comet, meanwhile, appears to be fine. He may have skipped a couple of meals, but he has resumed eating.
Are the symptoms I described consistent with copper poisoning, in your experience?
<Yes>
Can fish recover from this, and if so, will his normal coloring return, and what about twitching he pop eye?
<All can be recovered from>
This is the first time I have seen these symptoms associated with copper poisoning.
<Mmm, would bear your "writing all up", presenting as an article, pitch to hobbyists, professional aquarists>
As far as the Comet is concerned, I am naturally reluctant to continue his quarantine period  with copper. If he shows no symptoms of ich for the rest of his quarantine (another week and a half), can I add him to my display tank at that time, and be reasonably sure that I have not introduced the parasite to the display tank?
<I might risk this... passing the fish through a prophylactic dip (just slightly reduced spg, a spritz of formalin mixed in)>
I recently finished going fallow, and I don't want to do it again, but I have more fish on the way that I need to put into quarantine.
I would very much appreciate your expert advice.
Thanks,
Art
<Difficult to state what I might due w/o looking at the animal, but am inclined to encourage your moving it... lest it perish otherwise. Bob Fenner>

CopperSafe... copper use period   1/20/06
We have been dealing with Ich since we put up our tank, we were treating with CopperSafe.  The first set of fish all died. We emptied, cleaned, and changed everything on our tank.  Now our new fish have it.  We are treating with the CopperSafe, which says to add 1tsp. / 4gal.
<Mmm, with testing...>
And this treats for one month.  It has been almost three weeks and it is still there.  It says the treatment lasts for one month.  Does this mean that I only need to add the solution to the water once a month.
<Negative>
  I am confused.  And my Bala Shark, an Guppies seem to be dying once again. I would really appreciate any suggestions, since I have already spent over 100.00 buying and replacing my sons pets in the last three months.
                Thank You
<One should only use copper products while simultaneously utilizing test kits... to assure therapeutic levels... for either chelated (as here) or free cupric ion formats... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/copperprodfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Ich!!!!! Don't believe what you hear or read... gather data, think, then act
I've never had a problem with the 30 gallon reef tank that my children (10 & 12) set up (with my help) they do weekly water checks and everything has always been good Calcium 380, Alkalinity is 8.0, they do 10% water changes each week.  Then over the holidays decided they would add 2 Tank Raised True Percula's.  They were quarantined for 2 weeks by a friend.   Then added to the tank now three weeks later Ich.  
<Even the best laid plans...>
Went out and bought another tank to do our own quarantine/hospital tank.  Here is my problem,   from reading (not enough)  I did make sure the salinity was 1.019, temperature 80, the LFS told me don't need to do a dip, and that the tank had to have coral,
<?>
plus said that no one sold copper tests anymore.
<Incorrect>
   Where I said I saw them online and they said but they will email you that they are out of stock.   Thinking maybe something had changed.  Believed them and said okay.  Added the copper, but now I think do I have to tear it all apart and take out the bottom coral and leave it's bottom bare?
<Sigh... yes>
(I mean the tank not the fish!)  My children want to save these fish and the cost I feel in the long run was worth the cost and it was a good lesson in learning for them.  But is this a lesson also that some people can and will advise you wrong even if they are a well established LFS?
<Yes, unfortunately... we're people, not the pope... fallible>
  Please advise.  P.S.  My children even have a battery back up on there because when we have these rain storms and power  outages here in Northern California.  I want them to do this correctly and learn.  Now they want to take Scuba to learn and experience the places where all their corals come from.  Your web site has taught them so much and they have even purchased your books.   Thank you for any insight.  M
<Your answers, protocol are posted, over and over on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Porcupine puffer disease diagnosis... unsuitable water quality, copper exposure,  - 01/12/2006
Hello,
Your web site seems quite helpful in disease diagnosis, so I hope you can help.  I have a 100 gal. saltwater tank that I have had for about 8 months and have had the porcupine puffer for about 7 or so.  The problem is that he has not eaten anything in the last 2 weeks, he is still very active and always greets me with excitement.
<... have you read on WWM re feeding puffers, diodontids?>
The water quality is good salt 1.022
<I would raise this to near seawater strength... 1.025>
ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates less than forty
<Keep under twenty...>
as far as can tell.  I do use copper in the recommended dosage
<Stop! This is toxic to your livestock... should not be used on a continuous basis... some folks think never on puffers... can/will account for the non-feeding by itself>
and have so since I have had the tank.
<This is a mistake>
He shows no external signs of disease, he acts hungry  when I bring his feeding cup around but when i put the shrimp in he goes for it once or twice then just lets it fall to the bottom.  Before I could barely feed my bottom feeder because he would eat everything I put it.  I know I need to vary his diet other than shrimp but as of now he does not want to eat, food suggestions would be helpful.  The damsel, sailfin, and snowflake eel are all happy/healthy fish. I don't know what to do he does not match any disease charts he just wont eat.   Thanks
<... not a disease, unless you consider iatrogenic/induced, poor supplied circumstances as cause... Read on my friend. Your answers are on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Copper blind   1/4/06
Happy new year from British Columbia <And to you from sunless Michigan>
I would have asked a question long ago but your web site seems to answer pretty well everything. Anyway my dilemma is around copper treatments. I picked up CopperSafe and a test kit which will read the levels of free copper and chelated copper sulfate (Aquarium pharmaceuticals). I measured precisely 16 gallons (US) of salt water, and added exactly the recommended amount of copper and added it to the hospital tank. The recommended level from the directions  should have ended up being 1.5 -2.0 ppm, but it seems to be well below that amount. The colour on the chart makes me feel colour blind, but so do all the other test kits I have. My other family members back me up with opinions about the colour on the chart.
The hospital tank contains a heater, air stone, 10 pvc fittings and I'm using an aqua-clear 70 with a regular foam pad to help capture solid wastes. The test kit was the only one I could find within 50 miles of here. (the Question) : Do I trust the manufacturers amounts or should I trust the test kit or could the addition of the Aqua-clear affect the results by absorbing the copper in the foam pad? <I'd trust the test kit.  Keep in mind that PVC, substrate, etc, will absorb some of the copper which is why you are reading a lower level than expected.  For copper to be effective you should test on a daily basis and adjust if necessary.> I checked out Hach copper test kits and they are over 10 times the cost of an normal  priced one. There doesn't seem to be any in stock in BC. My fish are all in the hospital tank right now and I'd hate to put them through all this for a dose that won't do the trick. <Understood.  Do maintain an effective dose for a minimum of 21 days.>  
I'll take a second to thank everyone at wet web media and all the people who write in with their questions. All the problems and answers are very helpful in this fascinating hobby.
<Thank you.  James (Salty Dog)>

Hyposalinity vs. Copper  12/22/05
Hello WWM crew, <Hello Misty>
Looking forward to seeing and meeting some of you at our Next Wave Conference at the end of January here in Dallas.  I owe you all some in-person "thank you's" for the past four years of advice and help.
<We look forward to that>
Anyway, the decision at hand today is treating ich with hyposalinity vs. copper.  I've been lucky to not have to deal with ich for the first four years as a hobbyist.  I guess my time is up on that front. <We all get a turn at one time or another.>
I have a Kole Tang that has had a break-out.  The only other affected fish is my bi-color blenny - right now at least.  Of course, all of this happens two days before I leave town for the holiday (I leave this Friday), but my husband will be in town to carefully administer whatever regimen is necessary (this being the same husband who turned off the lights on my fuge a couple of years ago for 4 days because it bugged him while he was watching TV...hmmm). <Ah, husbands are like wives.>
So, if you are in my shoes, what would you do?  I've heard about tangs vs. copper.  I've heard that copper can be more effective than hyposalinity.  Here's what I have to work with immediately:
120-gallon display tank containing inverts and the following fishes:
1 Banggai Cardinal
1 Bicolor Blenny
2 False Percs
1 Target Mandarin
3 Green Chromis
1 Kole Tang
29-gallon baby Banggai grow-out tank, with a one-year old "baby" in it - so it's cycled and ready to go, has a Remora skimmer, too.
Empty 75-gallon tank
My initial thought is to remove the affected fish immediately to the 29-gallon and begin a treatment of some sort (would appreciate thoughts on the best treatment option).  Then, when I get back into town (next Monday night), set up the 75-gallon tank and remove the rest of the fish from the display in order to give them a bigger QT/treatment tank and allow for the fallow period of the display tank.  If the other fish are not affected, then I could possibly put them in the 75 and only have the affected fish in the 29 as well.  Thoughts?  Advice?  Magic potions?
Thanks again, in advance.  I owe you a cocktail when you get to Dallas. <Always nice to be on the receiving end.>
:-) <Misty, I'd put the affected fish into the 29, remove the skimmer using a power head for circulation and begin (immediately) treatment with a chelated copper (Copper Safe) as I'm thinking your husband is not going to test copper levels and adjust on a daily basis if you use the non-chelated form, and, you may not want him to.  Then I'd follow your plan of relocating the remaining fish into the 75 and let the display go fallow for a month. You may very well end up treating all the fish in the 75 as others will probably be infected.  I'm posting a link on the subject for your reading.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm  Good luck.  James (Salty Dog)>
Kind regards, <And Happy Holidays to you>
Misty Johnson

Re: Hyposalinity vs. Copper...decisions, decisions 12/24/05
Thanks so much for the quick reply. <You're welcome.>  Another quick question - what if catching the tang is his doom vs. trying something else?  He was hiding out last night in an alley between two live rock sections. <If the ich is visible and nothing is done to correct it, he will be doomed anyway.  At this stage its much less stressful on the tang if he were by himself.>
So, I did what I could and picked up a cleaner shrimp and "Marine Max" - as recommended by my LFS based on his prior experience with the product and a yellow tang in a new tank with ich. <The cleaner shrimp isn't going to eradicate the parasite.> I picked up some Garlic
Xtreme as an appetite booster, <This helps.> since Mr. Tang is looking a little thin as well.
IF I can catch him without really stressing him out to his doom, I already have the Copper Safe ready to go.  The blenny shouldn't be a
problem to catch since he shows up for feedings with the rest of the dogs. <About the only choice you have is to remove the rock and catch him.  Chasing him all over the tank with a net isn't going to improve health matters.  Much easier to QT before adding fish into the display tank.>
I think I'll owe myself a cocktail, too, after all of this :) <I usually have one as a prevention.  James (Salty Dog)>
Misty Johnson

Copper Treatment for Crypt and Ammonia Problems (PLEASE HAVE BOB FIELD THIS QUESTION)  12/17/05
Dear Bob,
<That's Bob Field to you...>
I would like to start out by saying that i wish i would've listened to your recommendations for quarantining all fish before introduction to the main tank, because if i did, i wouldn't have to write this particular letter to you.  I would also like to thank you and the WWM crew for all of the time that you guys put into maintaining this site.
<Woulda, coulda, shoulda... and what about these "i's"?...>
Due to some nasty Ich outbreaks in my two main tanks (46 bow reef and 55 FOWLR) I had to take immediate action and remove all fish for copper treatment.  I plan on letting the two main tanks run without any fish for about 6 weeks.  I have read through all of the Copper FAQ's and have come across many horror stories about Ammonia killing the fish in treatment due to lack of a biological filter.  
<Yes... common, and easily avoided...>
I am trying to make sure that this doesn't happen to me.  I need your opinion on my plan of action against the Ich before I begin treatment.
Here's the plan:  20 gal tank with 3 inch Brown Spotted Grouper, 4 inch Maroon Clownfish, 4.5 inch Blue Velvet Damsel, 2 inch Yellow Damsel, 2 inch Brown Leaf/Wasp Fish, 1 inch Chromis.  20 gal tank with 2 inch Niger Trigger and 3.5 inch Humu Trigger.  20 gal tank with 15 inch White Eye Moray and 3.5 inch Niger Trigger.  All tanks will have a specific gravity of 1.017 and be treated with CopperSafe chelated copper treatment.  I will either test with a Seachem or Salifert copper test for chelated copper.  All 3 of the 20 gallon tanks will share a 20 gallon sump that will have a Magnum 350 Canister filter and Jebo/Odyssea Canister filter (don't know model # but it filters 350 gph) with ammonia  media in place of the carbon media.  Also I will use a Turboflotor 1000 with Oceanrunner 2500 pump in the sump and maybe a modified Seaclone 100.   
Here's my questions about all of this:  How much and how often should I feed these fish to reduce the possibility of an Ammonia spike?
<Sparingly daily for the "not big meaty eaters"... once or twice a week for the latter>
Can all of the aforementioned livestock be treated with chelated copper?  
<Mmm, yes... the Moray is the one who will least "like it">
What copper level should I aim for with this type of livestock?  
<0.15- 0.25 ppm free cupric ion... consistently... not higher, lower>
Is it okay to use Ammonia pads and Ammonia media for filtration during copper treatment?
<Generally not... remove cations... the copper>
Would you recommend any additional filtration in this situation?
<Not really>
What is the maximum amount of time I can treat this livestock with chelated copper?
<... a good question... likely two, three, perhaps four weeks... less is better. Therapeutic exposure for two weeks should "do it">
Is it okay to treat a new fish that was recently purchased from the LFS with this sort of treatment?
<Very good question... likely in a more "weakened state"... Best to avoid over-treatment... only careful observation, experience can/will tell>
What temperature should I maintain during treatment?
<Upper seventies F.>
Thank You VERY Much,
Garen Wright
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Copper As Treatment for Marine Ich. Not Without Research - 12/15/2005
Dear crew,
<Hi there Carlos.>
I've read your articles re Marine Ich.
<Good.>
I understand that the recommendation is to isolate the fishes and treat them with Copper Sulfate while letting the main tank go fallow. I would like to know if I could just put the Copper in the main tank because I don't have the facilities to house all my fishes in a separate tank.
<Was not covered!?>
Besides, it would be extremely difficult to catch the fishes without stripping the tank which I don't plan to do.
<Then you should not treat the main tank. Have you read on other treatments (hyposalinity, increased temp.)?>
I have a 75 gallon fish only with live rocks running.
<Not if you put in Copper.>
Will the copper kill the beneficial bacteria in my filter?
<Yep.>
Lastly, how long should the copper treatment last?
<Not covered either!?>
It is now afflicting my Powder Brown Tang and Brown Tang.
Thanks a lot and more power to you!
Carlos
<Carlos, there's just not enough time or space for me to relay all you need to know. All of this has been specifically covered and is waiting in our disease FAQ's. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to the 3rd section Disease Treatments. Perhaps you've looked in the wrong place before. - Josh>

Right Thinking -- Wrong Timing...  12/5/05
I recently purchased a med. size Raccoon Butterfly for my 55 gallon fish only tank. I have 2 False Percula Clowns, and 1 medium size Blue Tang. On the 3rd day I noticed the raccoon scratching on my fake coral and not eating. (The only thing he would eat was frozen brine.) I checked my water and copper and all fine. I brought it to the shop I bought it from and they said it was fine, but to add some more copper. 
So I did , and it was just above .15 The next morning he stopped scratching, but that night when I got home, he was breathing heavy and sitting on the bottom of the tank, and still wouldn't eat. I noticed as I got him that my tang and him were getting along just fine. So I don't think he was being bullied. I put him in my hospital tank, after a brief FW dip, and he is laying on his side breathing very rapidly. He probably won't make it. I was just wandering if you had any ideas of what might of been the problem.
Thanks, Aaron
<Well, Aaron, this is a case where all of your intentions were good, but the execution was a bit off. First, you indicated that you have a "hospital tank", which is good! However, you need to use it as a quarantine BEFORE adding new fishes to your display. This will give you the ability to catch and treat illnesses before they get introduced into the display. Also, do think about the long-term implications of your stocking plan. 
These fishes need a lot more space than a 55 can provide, so consider this...
Next, it is always advisable NOT to treat in the display tank, for a variety of reasons. Use that extra tank. Copper sulphate, although highly effective at treating many diseases, can be hard on many fishes, including Butterflies.
<<Butterfly-fishes are one of the few animals the staff at the LBAOP will NOT use copper meds on.  Marina>>
Sometimes, the collateral damage caused to the fish in treating the disease is too great. Formalin-based treatment is recommended in the case of more copper-sensitive fishes. Again, you'll have far greater control of the dosage in a separate tank. 
Unfortunately, it's hard to say what you're looking at, but it could be a parasitic illness. If your Butterfly is struggling, you may need to reduce the copper level in the treatment tank. Although it may be too late for this fish, if you take this as a valuable lesson, the experience will not have been in vain. Chin up! Don't forget to quarantine before adding fishes to the display! Regards, Scott F.>

-Copper in the Main Tank-  12/10/05
Hey Crew,
<Daniel>
I had a problem that I can't find on your forum or the internet. I've even asked some of the biologists at the Jenks and the New Orleans Aquarium and nobody has given me a conclusive answer. I have a 75 gallon salt with a sand bottom and 30ish pounds of rock with one large lionfish. The lion has a mild case of ich that I treated with a chelated copper medication. The problem is that I used a bit too much and now I can't find out a way to dissolve it. 
<Mmm, I can see the problem already. You treated the main tank. The copper is permanently in the substrate and live rock. For all intents and purposes it is no longer safe for any invertebrates.> 
I have accomplished a 100% water change, sifted all the sand in a bucket with running water, and the test strips are worthless because they don't test for chelated copper. All I have to go on are the snails that die when I put them in there. I had to give the fish up because I am now deployed and it will be six months before I am back. So do you think the copper will evaporate by the time I am back?
<No, All substrate and Live Rock must be removed and the tank must be cleaned and probably bleached several times. Copper leeches into the porous rock and sand grains and stays there indefinitely and for fish keeping purposes is considered contaminated permanently. You also should not treat a lionfish with copper first, try other medications. They generally do not do well with copper treatments. 
Please also treat with medications in a separate tank NOT connected to the main tank so that you do not contaminate the main tank again. All the inverts dying off are due to the copper. Please wash the tank thoroughly and retest it with a copper test kit for chelated copper, then when those come back undetectable, test with snails etc well before you add substrate or LR back into the tank. That will at least save you money in the long run. 
Also a PolyFilter <<Is a proper noun, name of a product, capitalized.>> can remove copper in the water enough when you are washing the tank to make it useful to try.>
Thank you for your time,
Daniel Doyle
P.S. It is a glass tank
<Justin (Jager)>

Yet Another Copper Use Disaster - 12/08/2005
HEY CREW,
<Hello Sam. I've seen that you have three entries on this same situation, so I'll just combine all on this one. First, the bit about the bathroom has some merit but I agree that this is not your case. Chemicals used in bathroom cleaning would be quite harmful for the tank, likely airborne transfer. Just keep the door closed when cleaning up. The Windex is an ammoniated cleaner and should not be used for the glass cleaning (spraying on a towel still doesn't change its chemical composition). This could be a contributing factor, but again This is not your main problem. >
I was treating with Copper for Ich about 2 weeks ago.
<This is your problem.>
I've had PolyFilters in my Fluval and wet/dry since. My Copper level is about .5-.10
<I think you mean .05 - .1>
I've done about 3 water changes since.
<Nowhere near what you needed to do. You need massive water changes to even help straighten this out (the ammonia and nitrite I mean). I see that you don't have a QT (the only suitable place to use Copper) which I assume to mean you have no secondary housing options. I suggest you enlist the help of a friend or LFS that may baby-sit your fish for now. Your fish will most likely die if they stay. This appears to be a predator type display with no intentions of housing inverts., hopefully that's the case as that's the only thing going for you. The Copper treatment has killed your beneficial bacteria, and thus your cycle. You'll have to start over to reestablish one and if you do want to have inverts. eventually then you'll have to throw out your LR and substrate as well.> 
Any advice, my fish are not looking too well. What can I do to get that Copper out of there since obviously the poly filters are not working? Is the Copper permanently in the rocks, or tank?
<Bingo!>
It is a display tank. I have no room for a hospital tank.
<I'm sure your view on that will change. Well Sam, I know these are tough times so I won't be mean. However this was flagrantly irresponsible and you must understand the correct application (not just the dose) for all medications as well as their possible ramifications before ever using them.>
Thanks, Sam
<You're welcome Sam. I hope this gets to you in time. - Josh> 

Cupramine, Quarantine, and Fish in Hospital  11/10/05
Ok,
<?>
The Infestation of Ich is getting pretty bad. Everyone is covered with it EXCEPT (interestingly) the Pink Damsel that I re-introduced. (I'm still treating it though). So here's my deal: I will set up a 10 gallon quarantine tank tonight complete with a hang on filter with sponge and BioSpira for cycling. (Added to water from the display). I will place various pieces of PVC scrap and coffee mugs for hiding. Then add the fish and start the treatment. Is it better to introduce the Copper before the fish and establish a level, or does it not matter?
<Not important which>
<<Your biological filtration will become severely compromised as soon as you start treatment.  I suggest you have on hand LARGE amounts of pre-mixed saltwater (heated) on hand for the quite necessary water changes to come. MH>>
Anyway, then the tank will run without fish for 6 weeks and I will never again, not quarantine a new fish.
<I'll bet!>
Last question, I have a Red Sea Test kit (it came with Para Guard but I heard Cupramine is better.) Seachem said it should work with the Cupramine, would you know?
<Mmm, nope... is it a chelated copper kit? Should state right on it, in inserts>
Lastly, I will add two Lysmata cleaner shrimp. Will they clean tomites from the sand?
<Good question... I don't think so>
Thanks so much for your help. My fish and I appreciate it!!
-Jon
<Bob Fenner> 

Trying to learn while they burn, Copper Use  11/10/05
Well, as you may know, I purchased Cupramine by Seachem. Here is my added question. I am treating in a 10 gallon QT tank, with Bio-Spira added and a Small 175gph HOT filter and heater. Inside are some coffee mugs for hiding. Now
1. Do I need to siphon the bottom of the tank to clean up dead Tomites?
<Could>
If so how does this affect Cupramine's concentration?
<Dilutes it...>
2. Will it be necessary to perform water changes in the tank. The  Cupramine does not specify weather or not to do so.
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner>
Thanks so much! -Jon
<<Am emailing Jon with the following:
<<Jon, your money will be wasted trying to establish biological filtration while at the same time administering copper in any form for treatment of disease. You MUST have on hand a large amount of pre-mixed saltwater (heated, too, please) ready for water changes. If necessary, on the order of 75%-100% (well-aged water is really the best way to go for this. (Well-aged = 1 week.) Plan on doing these changes daily if you really want to treat your fish well. 
Save the BioSpira to kick-start biological filtration AFTER the fishes have been treated, because they still require a minimum of 30 days DISEASE FREE in quarantine to be considered safe & healthy for placement in display. Marina>> 

Trying to learn while they burn, Copper Use - Uhh.. IV?  11/11/05
Thanks Bob and Marina!
<<Much welcome Jon, but we're both hoping that you've done some reading on site as well.  Much (if not most) of this has been gone over.. rather ad nauseum, and it's time consuming to try to answer everything again and again (it's pretty much THE reason why we archive).>>
Marina: I have already used the Bio Spira but I can get it readily on hand, so not a big deal.
<<Ok, just know that with the copper you're killing what you just paid to have live.>>
So are you telling me I should change water every day??
<<IF necessary, absolutely!  You can be treating the disease with the copper, but killing the fish with nitrogenous wastes if you don't adequately address that issue, and it IS very much an issue.  That doesn't make much sense, does it?  Also, having high levels of nitrogenous wastes simply makes fighting the disease that much more difficult, makes the treatment that much more toxic.  Indeed, high nitrogenous waste levels is often believed to INDUCE disease in otherwise healthy fish.>>
How Much?
<<That is best determined by daily testing for ammonia and nitrite.  Then you must change out enough water to get it as close to zero as possible.  Remember, you CAN simply re-dose the make-up water with the Cupramine, then test to ensure you have proper levels.  That way, the dosage will not change despite the water changes (don't add the Cupramine until the water's actually ready to go into the system).  
In any event, I've found that one usually has to change 50% or more in a small q/t, so that's a place to start.  Remember also, aged water is key for your fishes.  I cannot adequately quantify why this is so, but experience tells us it is.>>
The Cupramine bottle states that after first dosage, wait 48 hours and then repeat the dosage.
<<Alright.  I assume they also say you must test BEFORE you add more, or you could be creating quite a chemical pickle for the fish.>>
Does not mention water changes.
<<I can't speak for the manufacturer, but I think they're assuming that you know you must maintain non-toxic levels of ammonia, nitrite in this situation.  This is not like adding freshwater to replace evaporative losses.>>
I don't want to mess around with it too much because I don't want to accidentally off-throw the therapeutic concentration. Thanks!  Jon
<<You won't if you test before and after.  Not to mention the fact that you're undoing what you've done in your effort to treat disease, and putting the fishes through a chemical hell if you DON'T perform sufficient water changes.  How is the fish going to fight the disease if it's choking/suffocating on its own waste??
And you're welcome, but have you read our copper treatment FAQs yet?  There really is SO much more information in those sections than what Bob or I could give you in a few emails.  Use our Google bar, search keywords, like "Cupramine, copper, marine ich/parasites" (there are quite a few more terms, but these should net you what's necessary), then be SURE to hit "cached".  This highlights the desired search results for you.  Exceedingly nifty.>>
Just out of curiosity, what exact procedure would you follow in this situation (using Cupramine)?
<<Honestly, it's been QUITE a long time since I've treated a fish for disease (haven't had my own fishes in quite a few years), and I probably wouldn't begin with copper, but let's assume I would: I would, of course, treat at their recommended therapeutic dosage, testing very closely (might use two kits, just to be sure - brand and age are important here, too).  I would definitely perform water changes based on test results; I don't want to see ANY ammonia or nitrite in that hospital system.  That means that if I had to change 100% of the water, that's what I'm doing.  Hope that makes sense (will make more if you do the recommended reading).  If you Google copper as a treatment, you'll find a whole lot of insecticidal applications, this stuff is toxic, must be handled with care and care taken for the fishes being pickled in it.  Marina>>

Can freshwater dips with velvet clog gills? Plus, disappearing copper  11/9/05
I have been battling velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) in my tank for over three months. You'd think I was an idiot, but I'm pretty much an expert on the parasite by now (I even helped the not-so-expert local PetSmart to identify and rid their system of velvet). I have spent days reading up on your site over the last few months, which has been helpful, despite my lack of success. I rid PM's 250g tank of velvet, however, I am not having the same luck with my 72. To make a long story short, I lost almost all my fish in two days the first time around,
<Can be very virulent>
so the tank went fallow for two months and the surviving fish in a QT (with no outbreaks over those two months at all). Upon my re-introduction of a yellow tang, it died overnight from velvet once more. How does velvet survive in a fallow tank for two months? 
<On "slime" detritus... a good idea to clean out, lower spg, raise temp...>
So the 72g was stripped down, all corals were put in a 30g (which are doing great), and the rock in a tub. I sucked up the 5" DSB, scrubbed the tank dry, and after a 100% water change, the 72g has a 3/4 in sandbed (not live) and is treated with Cupramine (but still has live rock - it's expensive and I didn't want to let it go).
<... Cupramine and carbonaceous materials together? Not for long... the carbonate in the substrate and LR will absorb the copper in short order...>
Corals will stay in the 30g for 10 weeks so the parasite dies out. The 72g will be treated for a month and the copper
will be sucked out if the remaining rock for a month with CupriSorb. 
<Uhh, not likely>
Sounded like a good plan, but then it got messy.
<I'll bet...>
1. I can't get copper to show up in my tank. I've added three times the max dosage of Cupramine (should be 1.5 ppm by now) over the last week and I am still getting a 0 reading on Seachem's copper test. 
<Is all gone... absorbed>
Seems the copper or the test would be bad, but both seemed to work for Pet's Mart's tank. Everything in my tank should be dead - even fish, but NOTHING is dying. I think the test is right - the one mushroom coral left is thriving,
so there can't be much copper. The velvet is thriving too. I think my current fish have fought it off enough that they are immune, but new fish I'm trying to QT have it now (I thought treating new fish would be good, to make sure they didn't have anything from the LFS. now I know that was a very bad idea. please forgive my bad judgment!).
<Mmm, not a bad call, just a poor choice of means of execution>
I know rock and sand can absorb copper, but can they absorb that much? 
<Oh yes... and much more>
If so, is it going to release all that at once and wipe out my tank? 
<Could, but unlikely to do so... but enough can/could be released to damage other than fishes.>
What should I do? I have PVC pipe for them to hide in if I need to trash the rock, but I hate to lose that much LR. it's expensive.
<... I would sell, trade to someone with fish-only system aspirations>
2. I've tried a freshwater dip on two fish who have both died. I followed protocol to a tee - R/O water pH matched, temp matched, and aerated for one hour. The yellow tang I dipped bled out of his gills (that's what it looked like) immediately, then quit moving, so I put him back in the QT - I'm assuming he was too far gone and the bursting parasites ripped his lungs up. 
<<Hey, mate, fish don't have lungs.  It's the gills they're breathing with.  MH>>
He lived for a few hours but died overnight. Was the dip the wrong thing to do?
<In this case, yes... I would not FW dip fishes for Velvet treatment...>
A new dip bucket was set up for a Coral Beauty which was given to me by Pet's Mart to save. The CB was fine in the freshwater, swimming like nothing was wrong for five minutes. Upon re-introduction 
<... why replace the fish/es in an infested system?>
to the QT, he freaked out, swimming at the top of the water. He died quickly thereafter, and did not sink. I was told that FW dips for velvet can clog their lungs with the dying parasites tissue. Can that happen?
<Yes>
Would trapped air be the cause of his floating?
<Possibly, but doubtful... more likely disorientation, the fish trying to breath>
From experience, I don't want to dip my pink tail trigger (which is the one fish I didn't want to lose - not easy to replace). Is that a bad call? Is there a point where the dip does more damage than good? 
<Yes>
What is that point? 
<Individual cases... how debilitated what species, specimen is...>
Is there anything that can be done once it's showing on their body? 
<Yes...>
He'll probably be gone by morning but I thought I'd ask for next time. Thanks so much for your help and patience.
Rockwell Ryan 
<... Have you read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm and the Related linked files above?
I would do so (again), and the archived materials on Copper Use... You need to treat these afflicted fishes in a system devoid of carbonaceous material... with daily testing... plenty of aeration, water on hand for change-outs. Bob Fenner>