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FAQs on Copper Use 4

Related Articles: Copper Use in Marine Systems, Medications, Use of Biological Cleaners, Aquatic Surgery, The Three Sets of Factors That Determine Livestock Health/Disease, 

Related FAQs: Copper FAQs 1, Copper FAQs 2, Copper FAQs 3, & FAQs on Copper: Science, Rationale/Use, Free Copper/Cupric Ion Compounds (e.g. SeaCure), Chelated Coppers (e.g. Copper Power, ), Making Your Own/DIY Copper Solutions, Measure/Testing, Utilization/Duration, Prophylactic Use, Toxic Situations/Troubleshooting, Copper Product FAQs, Copper Test FAQs, Copper Removal FAQs, Copper Removal 2, & Live Rock, Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Cryptocaryoniasis, Marine Ich, Marine Velvet Disease, Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3,  Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelminthics/Vermifuges/Dewormers, Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce, other shams...), Malachite Green, Mercury Compounds/Topicals, Methylene Blue, Metronidazole, Quinine Compounds, Sulfas, Treating Disease, Treatment Tanks, Medications/Treatments II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Garlic Use, Antibiotic Use, Marine Disease 1, Puffer Disease, 

Copper is variably toxic (but also so to a degree) depending on species and specific conditions.

Ich, copper and DT    7/24/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper.
<... a very poor idea>
What do you think? Would you advise this?
<No and no>
The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand.
<... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS>
There would be no inverts or LR at all.
<So?>
I plan to treat using Cupramine.
<A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here>
How long should I treat the tank?
<I wouldn't... you'll find that you are unable to "keep" a therapeutic dose of copper in such a setting... too quickly adsorbed...>
Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks.
Thank you for any help you can provide.
-Peter
<Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/24/08
Hello,
<Peter>
Thank you for the quick reply.
<Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here>
So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult?
<Adsorbed>
Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary?
<No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work>
Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks.
<... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...>
I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper.
Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM.
-Peter
<I would... and quickly. BobF>

Copper And a FOWLR Tank (Is Simple… Don’t Do It) – 07/02/08
Evening gentlemen,
<<Hello…and Ladies here too>>
I have read thru numerous FAQs regarding the use of medications in marine display tanks, mainly never to do it.
<<Reasons for this>>
But I have a situation which I cannot handle with normal treatment tank procedures (space and time constraints).
<<Pity…so now your livestock/tank system must suffer the result>>
So, specifically regarding the use of copper based medications (i.e. Copper Power)
<<Hmm, this product states it is 60-times less toxic to fish…so likely 60-times less effective as Copper treatments go>>
in the treatment of Ich in a FOWLR tank: What exactly will be destroyed?
<<Most all non-vertebrate life will be malaffected…beneficial alga, crustaceans (macro- and micro-), bacteria/microbes, et al>>
I understand any invertebrates in the tank will die, but what about the live rock and live sand's ability to provide biologic filtration?
<<Yes, this too will be affected>>
If I never have intentions of placing invertebrates in the tank would copper be a viable option? I assume I will have to monitor ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and copper during the treatment duration?
Thanks, b
<<Aside from the damage to the system, it will be difficult to maintain medicinal/useful levels of Copper as it will be readily absorbed by the carbonaceous rock and sand. Do this right, and remove the fishes to a hospital tank for treatment. Regards, EricR>>

Copper safe in freshwater and how to remove copper danger   5/5/08
I used CopperSafe a couple time in several tanks. I have since been told by a respected friend that no copper formula is safe in my aquarium fish only with a plant or 2).I was told even after treatment that the tank and the substrates/decor and filters could not be rendered safe due to copper leaching from that point on. Is this accurate ?and if not is CopperSafe safe/and how would one de-tox the tanks and filters from copper residue leaching without dry-docking them? And can it be done even with a dry-dock downtime? Thanks very much.
Mike
<Mike, I wouldn't worry about it. Your friend is technically correct that copper medications are more or less toxic to all fish. But then so are many medications that we take. It's the dose that matters. While some freshwater fish (notably stingrays and Mormyrids) are very intolerant of copper, most freshwater fish are able to tolerate a small amount without harm. That's why copper-based medications are so widely used to kill parasitic infections like Whitespot. So provided you have used the copper medication as instructed by the manufacturer, you are not putting your fish at risk. A series of 50% water changes will flush out any residual copper to very low levels, at which point you can safely add copper intolerant species if need be. Unlike marine tanks, where calcareous rockwork is common, freshwater tanks usually contain only inert rocks like granite and slate. These inert rocks do not absorb copper and will not leach it out again afterwards. That's the reverse of the situation in marine tanks, where the calcareous rocks can release copper long after the medication has actually been used. Of course if you have a hard water cichlid aquarium with tufa rock or coral sand, these calcareous media can and will absorb copper, so you will need to be more careful. But cichlids generally aren't bothered by copper, so even there the risk is small. If you're still worried, grab a copper test kit from a marine aquarium supplier and check the levels in the tank are within the safe zone. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Ineffective Copper Treatment. 5/1/08
Hello and sorry for another question.
<Hello>
I will give you a brief overview of the situation I am in. Over a year ago I had an outbreak of Marine Ich. I did a two month quarantine of all the fish and let the main tank remain fallow for the same time period except for inverts (corals, snails, live rock, shrimp, and hermit crabs). The fish were treated with Cupramine successfully and returned to the main tank and the Ich returned with in a few weeks. After about a year I lost the Niger Trigger and decided it was time to try another treatment other then keeping the aquarium environment in the fish's favor.
<Ok>
I decided to place the fish QT for a 3 month period while increasing tank size from 75 gallons with 30 gallon refugium to a 125 gallon tank with the same refugium at the end of the 3 months QT period. I replaced all the substrate with new and rinsed all live rock and corals with new salt water at the end of the 3 months and placed in them 125 gallon tank for the first time with the old water plus the additional new water. Again the main tank remained fallow except for the corals, snails, hermit crabs, shrimp, and live rock during the three month fallow period. The fish were successfully treated with Cupramine again in the QT tank with no signs of Ich except for rapid respiratory rates of about 100-120 minute on only two of the fish. The other fish were in the 20-30 range. The respiratory rates never changed with treatment and they are active fish as well. I reduced the bio load from six fish down to four (taking the Rabbitfish and the flame angel back to the store because I am leaning towards a full fledged coral reef tank with a light bio-load vs. a tank with soft corals and heavier fish bio-load) The governments rebate check will be used to upgrade to Metal Halide lighting for the new tank "Yeah". The tank is presently stocked with a Royal Gramma, Yellow Tail Damsel, Six Line Wrasse, Blue Hippo Tang, about a dozen hermit crabs, ten snails, two cleaner shrimp, a green star polyp that has covered about thirty eight pounds of rock (my favorite), many mushrooms, couple hundred Zoanthids and a small trumpet coral at the very top of the tank under the power compacts that has grown from three heads to six.
<Sounds nice>
Water parameters are within reef parameter guidelines. Now for the problem after the fish were moved back into the new tank. After about two weeks in the main tank the Blue Hippo Tank has White spots again.
<Very susceptible, especially in a tank that is a little on the small side for this fish that likes to roam.>
I am to the point were I want to treat the main tank regardless of repercussions to rid myself of this problem.
<I doubt the main tank is the problem.>
The frustration level here is growing as I am sure you are aware of and have experienced yourself in the past.
<Yep>
I am considering a reef only no fish tank because I believe maintaining reef level water quality to be much easier then getting rid of Marine Ich. Again Thank you for your continued consideration in this matter.
Budde
<I think you are looking in the wrong spot, its doubtful that the ich is surviving in the main tank being fallow this long. More likely is that some is surviving the copper treatment. There has been talk of some copper resistant strains, which may be something you are experiencing. I would probably try a quinine treatment here, easier on the tang than copper anyway. You have the right idea here, just running into a little more resistance than usual. Also make sure you are not using the same tools, equipment, anything wet, in both tanks, could be leading to possible cross-contamination.>'
<Chris>
<<Ahh! Excellent Chris. RMF>>

Algae research, CuSO4 bibliog.......  4/8/08
Robert...
you really seem to be tuned into algae control. I'd very much like to obtain some good research on the use of copper sulfate to control algae. I'd like to be able to read it and then reference it.
could you direct me to some good sources for this.
thanks so much for your help,
Ric
<Mmm, in the early eighties I worked more directly for the gov't at a facility here in San Diego... NOSC (the civil servants love their acronyms), Naval Ocean Systems Center... at a bio-assay lab... essentially testing copper and organo-tin compounds for their efficacy and toxicity to a few species, densities of sea life... At the time they had a bibliography of a few thousand references... See a large/college library with a science dept. (bio., chem.) of size here. Doing such searches is covered on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Re: Difficult Case of Ich, or something else? Mis-using Cu   8/13/07
Thanks for your reply. I will continue to read the website.
<Welcome, good>
I tried to find a test kit for CopperSafe and eventually gave up. If I could have gotten my hands on a Kordon Aquatru Chelated Copper test kit, I would have certainly used it, or used a different kind of copper that could be tested for. I took a sample of water in to the LFS for testing, and when he found out I used CopperSafe, said he couldn't test for it. I looked all over online, and even made a few phone calls out of state, no one had a test,
<Try MarineDepot.com, CustomAquatic.com...>
and was eventually advised that as long as I dosed the tank properly, there should be no reason to test as the copper is chelated.
<... no>
To be sure, I even added a little more every few days,
<...>
and added more every time I changed some water. Half way through treatment,
<... what?>
I even removed all of the copper with a PolyFilter (came out very, very blue), and redosed the tank to make sure I had the proper level in there. I removed the CopperSafe once more (again very, very blue Poly) just before taking the fish out. The remaining two in treatment are showing no signs of ich, even without CopperSafe.
<Good>
It sounds rather bleak for the current system, anyway, so in getting back to my question, would anything else in the tank be rendered unsuitable for inverts later if I use copper in the main system? Can I use the same tank?
<...? This is posted...>
Would the silicone absorb copper? Could I use the skimmer again? The filter, if I replace the bio wheels?
<All can be used>
If I understand correctly, the only way to completely eradicate ich is to remove and sterilize everything. So, if I get another outbreak, I'm inclined to copper the main system, since I will likely be starting over anyway at that point. Or, at best, reach a stand off, but won't be able to add any fish. Not what I had in mind for the long term.
Finally, the main tank salinity is currently 1.024. At what pace can I bring it down to 1.010? Do you think there is a possibility of the Neon Dottyback killing the shrimp? I can't seem to find a TMC Vecton UV Sterilizer here, only in the UK.
<Is distributed through Quality Marine in LA... have your LFS contact them>
Are there any others that you might recommend?
<... posted>
This is such a downer, but I can only learn from this going forward. Thanks so much for your help. Your book is fabulous.
Kim
<Try using the site: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/index.html
Bob Fenner>

Re: Queen Angel and Niger Trigger problems; Crypt,   8/13/07
I purchased a 50 gal tank to serve as my hospital tank.
<Okay... have re-read our prev. corr.>
I did a 5 minute methylene blue/freshwater dip and have had the fish in the hospital tank for almost two weeks. I have been treating the hospital tank with CFX copper treatment and have been maintaining a level of between .15 and .30. I do a 10% water change every other day and all of my levels appear to be good. Checked at least daily.
I lost my clown a couple of days into the treatment, unfortunately, after reading on the website, that was an anticipated loss (was hoping it wouldn't happen, but was expecting it).
The Niger Trigger has shown no real improvement. His eye is still cloudy and he is not as social as he was prior to this entire ordeal.
The angel has been a lot more active; however, today, I noticed what appears to be scales or bubbles in/on one of her eyes (not small, almost like large air bubbles). She is still more active than she has been, but is not quite right, probably due to the copper.
<Likely>
I'm going discontinue the copper treatment and let it flush out with the water changes.
<I'd finish the two week regimen>
I've read for hours and believe I am doing the best thing for my fish. Is there anything else I can do?
<Not known from the information you provide>
Thanks for the help,
David
<BobF>

Copper Sulfate and species' tolerance  3/23/07
Hi Bob and crew,
<Hey, Rebecca! JustinN with you today.>
  Firstly, let me say: what a great website you have!  I have perused it extensively and truely appreciate the resource.
<From all of us here at the crew, we deeply thank you for this. The knowledge that we're helping other hobbyists is truly a reward in itself.>
  Now for my situation: I have a 135g saltwater tank that seems to have a case of the dreaded ick.  I was hoping that there was an *easy* way of treating this without having to catch all my fish and move them to a qt.  However, after using Kick-Ich (which I now do not see much support for) for 3 days, I feel that I have to do the "right thing", which I plan to begin tomorrow: I will move all the fish to two qt tanks, treat these tanks with copper sulfate for at least one month while I let my main tank fallow (there's live rock and some hermit crabs, but I'm hoping to add corals etc once this ich problem is solved).
<You are wise here, my friend. As you've unfortunately learned first hand, there's 2 kinds of reef safe ich treatments -- ones that will kill off all invert life in your aquarium, and ones that will do effectively nothing.>
  My main concerns/questions are the following:
  1) Are any of the below fish that are particularly sensitive to or should not be exposed to copper?
  - 4 blue-green Chromis
  - 1 convict tang
  - 1 humbug damsel
  - 1 lawnmower blenny
  - 1 purple firefish
  - 1 coral beauty
  - 1 neon goby
  - 2 common clowns
<The neon goby and firefish may exhibit some signs of sensitivity, but I don't think there will be a concern here. If there's any fish in your list to watch it would be the two of them, though.>
  2) In the main tank, everyone gets along pretty well.  Are there any suggestions with respect to arranging them in quarantine (e.g. if 2 tanks are set up)?  I was planning on keeping the tang and damsel together (the tang is 2x larger than the damsel so the damsel doesn't push him around).
<Sounds fine here. Just be sure to provide some sort of chemically inert hiding areas for all the QT occupants.>   
  3) How often should water changes be done to keep the nitrates, etc. down?  Is once a day or every two days too much or too little?
<Once a day is probably a good idea here, depending on how large of a quarantine you use obviously. You can always test your water quality daily and react accordingly as well.>
  Thank you in advance for your help!
  Regards,
  Rebecca J.
<No problem, Rebecca. Glad to be of service! -JustinN>

Copper test kits  3/16/2007
I am confused by the following...... I have in the past always used Aquarium System copper
<Is copper sulfate pentahydrate in aqueous soln. (water)... Non-chelated...>
and test kit..... During treatment I maintain .15ppm level for 14 days......
<A bit on the low-side... you want this to be the absolute lowest concentration (and no more than 0.35 ppm free cupric ion...)>
I recently purchased a Red Sea test kit  they claim to maintain .3 ppm for ten days based on there kit..... Any idea what the difference may be....
<The range of efficacy...>
I have always thought levels above .20 ppm were toxic to fish....
Thanks for your help !
E-mail from Craig Smith   
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/copperus.htm
The linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Another Angelfish and the Prophylactic Use of Copper ) 3/14/07
Hi guys.
<Leslie in for the guys this evening…>
I have a 120 gallon FOWLR which was nearly "completed" recently.  It has two 3" Regal Tangs, a 3" Yellow Tang, a 3" Coral Beauty, a 4" Purple Tang, a Longnose Hawkfish, a Purple Firefish and a Blackcap Basslet.
<Wow, that’s quite a combination there. I hope you are planning on a much larger tank sometime in the not to distant future.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news but here goes….. your tank is not appropriately stocked. You have 3 more Tangs than the recommended number, which would be one per system unless you have a very large system. 120g would not be considered very large. The Purple firefish belongs in a more docile environment. These fish have a tendency to hide and starve to death when kept with more pugnacious fish.>
I had recently added the "final" addition, a very good looking Bluefaced Angel.  It had been at the LFS for 4 weeks and was eating Mysis shrimp.
<Very good signs!>
I got him and since my quarantine tank was only 10 gallons and he had been looking good at the LFS a added him directly to my tank.
<Woops, a larger quarantine tank would be in order.>
Of course four days later he has velvet and dies two days after that.
<Oh no, so sorry for the loss, but not unusual.>
Naturally a day after he died, the Tangs were showing early signs of velvet too. So I bit the bullet and took out the live rock and cleaner crew.  I treated the whole system with copper and even though the two Blue Tangs went down to the bottom on their sides, everyone recovered.
<Very lucky, indeed.>
So here is my question:  I'd like to replace the Angel with either another Blueface or an Imperator.
<Your tank is really to small for either of those fish. If you have your heart set on one of the large Angelfish you really need a bigger tank. Please do yourself and those fish a favor….get a bigger tank and/or return some of those fish your LFS and re think your stocking plan.>
Since the live rock is out and the water is medicated could I add the fish while the copper is still in as to avoid any ick or velvet breakout
while adding him?
<I wouldn’t. Copper is a not gentle drug. I am not a fan of using prophylactic medication most of the time.>
It's been about three weeks with the copper in the tank.  Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. Francisco J.
<Well those are my thoughts, probably not exactly what you wanted to hear but I hope they help, Leslie>

Follow up on Patrick Myer's choice in copper, test kits for same  3/9/07
Mr. Fenner,
<Pat>
  You asked me to reply with the copper test kits I found most useful in combating my c. irritans problem.  To be honest, I found the Red Sea kit the best for three reasons.  First, the color grading on the test kit varies enough between the different levels and it is specific enough to allow for more accurate treatment.  Second, it comes with its own copper dose, so you know that the test kit is made to test the non chelated copper you are using.  And, third, it comes with non chelated copper which in my estimation is the best.
<Ahh!>
  I tried using SeaCure copper and a Salifert test kit.  What an expensive and deadly combination those two were in my hands.  I could detect no copper at all with the Salifert test kit.  Of course that did not stop the copper from being toxic and killing fish!!  I then purchased the test kit from the same manufacturer (Aquarium Systems if memory serves correctly).  I was able to detect a definite copper level, which I already knew I had because the fish told me so.  The Aquarium Systems test kit was hard to use and the color changes between copper levels is a joke - seriously the difference between toxic level and therapeutic level was not too much different unless you are very keen at differentiating your shades of light blue.  I overdosed a Powder Blue Tang with that one.  I loved that fish too.  I went from that debacle to the Red Sea and had success.  Oh, I also tried the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit, but it is so NON-specific that it is essentially worthless.  
<We are in agreement>
  The best success I had was running a specific gravity of 1.008-1.009 (I have a refractometer) and dosing the copper in a glass tank with 3" PVC pipes for cover and a Whisper HOB filter with bio-balls from a mature tank.
  On a positive note, I have another Powder Blue Tang in a 20 gal long QT right now and he is doing superb.  I have had him for three weeks and he had "a spot" not really convinced that it was anything other that a figment of my imagination and paranoia at the time, but he got a weeks dose of copper and not a blemish since and that' been three weeks ago.
I plan on keeping him in there for a few more weeks to fatten him up and get him ready for my reef tank that has a very robust eating, but very peaceful Hippo Tang.  I'll have to see how it goes.  I've had great experiences in the past with that combo even though some others have not.  I really think it comes down to the size of the tank and the aquascaping.
<Yes>
Thanks so much for the advice.  I think I will give the Marine Center a shot.  They sure get a lot of great stuff.
Sincerely,
Patrick Myer
<Again, thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Copper Treatment  2/19/07
Dear Mr. Fenner/James
<Akila>
I purchased a 3” Auriga Butterfly from the LFS yesterday and it’s in my 20G QT now. I have dropped my Gravity to 1.015. Is this gravity suitable to treat the Auriga? The butterfly has not shown any ill effects up to now (tap on wood) but I have not fed him yet.
<Personally, I wouldn't go much below 1.018.>
I also want to treat this QT with chelated copper. This is the only type of copper available at the store. Do you think chelated copper is effective???
<Is effective but not easy to control.  The dosage rate is usually related to tank volume, and if this volume is misjudged, the treatment can be ineffective or dangerously high.
As for butterflies, they have a heightened sensitivity to copper, and long-term use can suppress their immune system making the fish more susceptible to other pathogens, kind of like throwing gas on the fire.  Anyway, I like to use non-chelated copper.  It generally has a half life of about 12 hours, so if the dose was slightly high, it would lower in a short time.  When using non-chelated, it is very important to monitor the level at least twice a day to insure an effective treatment level.  As for butterflies, I'd start with a half dose.  If it were me, I'd order non-chelated copper from your nearest
etailer and overnight it.  Shouldn't cost that much shipping-wise for a small item like that.>
My test kit says it measures Cu+2 what does this +2 mean? The range they have mentioned is 0.25 mg/l to 2.5 mg/l. What is the correct concentration I have to use to treat the QT fish???
<Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cu2+ is the chelated form. <<Mmm, no... there is another molecule tied/liganded to this. Copper sulfate (pentahydrate before dissolution in water... sometimes with addition of citric acid, other solubilizers... CuSO4, is a common formulation... this "breaks down" in basic (high pH) solutions... to yield the cupric ion (Cu++). RMF>> Cu+ would be the non-chelated which also forms a blue, blue/green coloration when mixed with a small amount of water.  So, based on your info, your test kit is measuring chelated copper. <<Mmm... well... chelated copper "breaks down" to be the same ionic copper (Cu++)... over time... per design... neither looks blue unless in high concentration. RMF>> As for dosing,  chelated would be 0.2ppm and ionic, 0.15-0.20 ppm. When using chelated, and treating by water volume, these levels will generally exceed 0.20ppm.>
One last thing, how many times during this 2-week period should I change water and what percentage should I change. FYI I use natural seawater so should I do it frequently?
<I wouldn't do this unless ammonia is detected.  You must also monitor this during treatment. Two-week period?  Treatment should last at least 21 days to ensure the kill of hatching (hatching doesn't sound right??)  cysts, as copper is ineffective to them until then.  Do use any chemical filtration during treatment, as it will absorb the copper from the water.>
Hope to hear from you guys soon and thanks in advance for any advice.
<You're welcome, James (Salty Dog)>
Take care,
Best regards,
Akila

Re:  Ich Outbreak 3/9/07
Thank you for your response. The ammonia detox is a Kent product.
Could you tell me is .15 the correct reading for the copper test?
<Again, depends on what types of fish you are treating.  Did you not read the link and related files I gave you?>
Treat with the copper for 21 days, then do water changes to rid the copper?
<I would filter the copper out with chemical media such as a Poly-Filter or a good grade of activated carbon etc.>
You also mentioned the hang-on filter, could you tell me in your opinion which would you recommend and how to go about using or seeding it?
<Again, as I mentioned in the original query, with copper present, not much seeding is going to take place.  As for a HOB filter for a QT, I would go with something inexpensive and easy to maintain.  The Whisper is a good one in this regard.>
Thanks again.
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>

Butterflyfishes and copper treatment    2/16/07
Hello,
<Good morrow to you>
I would appreciate any help you could give me on my tank situation. I am really frustrated after losing a couple of fish and would like to figure out what I can do differently and what is the best course of action.
<Okay... as in I will try to assist you>
I have a 90-gallon quarantine tank that has been running consistently for about a year now. My water chemistry is all within normal range (Ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, PH=8.2, Alkalinity=normal, salinity=1.024); I don't know the nitrate level, and I will have to get a kit to test it. I assume it is pretty low, as I do 20-gallon water changes every two weeks, and I do not overfeed.
<I see>
Ten days ago, I moved four fish (3 wrasses and a firefish) from my quarantine tank to my main tank after treating and quarantine them for ich for about 4 months. They are doing well in my main tank. However, the fish I bought in the last 3-10 days have started to show signs of ich, and I have lost 2 of them--a yellow head jawfish and a yellow longnose butterflyfish.
<Generally very sturdy aquarium species>
Within a couple of days of adding them, they started showing signs of hemorrhaging and stopped eating.
<Yikes... troubles, challenges ahead of your receiving them...>
I found the yellow longnose butterflyfish this morning moving around in a 360 degree circular pattern, bumping into things, and it was dead shortly thereafter. My copper sulphate level is slightly below .20ppm. Does the hemorrhaging seem like it is a reaction to the parasites, the copper or both?
<Mmm perhaps a combination... no way to tell... w/o knowing the history of these animals ahead of your receiving them... Were they at your dealers a good few days or more before your picking them up?>
When I bought them, they were all eating and appeared in good health. All of them, with the exception of the jawfish, were in tanks with a copper level of .20ppm for at least a few days. Could the hemorrhaging indicate that they were exposed to copper for a few weeks?
<Mmm, again... a possibility... but would take more than this exposure to "do them in" as you state>
The fish store also was keeping the butterflyfish in a salinity around 1.018,
<Typical...>
so I took about 3 hours to acclimate the fish since my salinity is so much higher.
<I would do this much more gradually... about a thousandth in density changer per any given day>
I'm concerned about treating my butterflyfish (a pearlscale butterfly, a raccoon butterfly, a threadfin butterfly, and a Klein's butterfly, all around 2-3" each) with copper since I have done it unsuccessfully in the past (with a Pakistan butterfly, a latticed butterfly and a pearlscale butterfly), and I understand that butterflyfish are more sensitive to copper treatments.
<Yes>
In the past, I treated the ich early, but the level got a little high, around .25ppm.
I appreciate your help.
Jenny
<I would not use copper of any sort if this is to be simply a Quarantine, and not a treatment tank... and if pressed to use copper, only a chelated variety/brand... and lower on the useful/efficacious concentration... 0.15 ppm free cupric ion. Bob Fenner>

Re: Butterflyfishes and copper treatment    02/17/07
Thank you for your feedback. I have a couple more questions regarding copper and treating ich.
<Okay>
My 90-gallon tank has been a quarantine and treatment tank for a year now, and I want to start stocking it as a regular fish tank. Since I've already
got the nonchelated copper in my tank, I would imagine that I need to remove it with carbon or a poly filter before adding chelated copper?
<Yes, I would>
Since I want to add more fish and copper is so effective at treating ich, I'm thinking my best route would be to treat with copper, although I am concerned about its
effects on the butterflyfish. Are freshwater dips really a good alternative?
<Yes... can be... if the Cryptocaryon is not "too advanced"... as in cases where multiple generations are entrenched, embedded deep in the fish hosts integuments>
It doesn't seem like it is nearly as effective as the copper treatments.
Thanks again for your help.
<Is much safer, less toxic... You have read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down... to dips/baths, the voluminous materials on Crypt, its treatment... the use of Copper... Bob Fenner>

QT copper treatment Kole Tang   2/4/07
Hello crew and I have to say this is virtually the only source of information that I and my fish can count on.
<Mmm, books? Clubs?>
Over the years you have helped me beat Cyano without chemical intervention and now I am in the last stages of using QT for all fish introduced into my 125G FOWLR.
<Yay!>
My question is concerning my QT tank, a 12 gallon nano cube which has a small Kole Tang that has been treated for 21 days with Coppersafe and monitoring Cu level.  The fish appears fine and is eating well.
I have read a numbers of FAQs indicating I should only treat Tangs for 14 days at the minimum effective level of copper.
<Mmm, a good general "rule of thumb", yes>
Since my fish is doing well I was planning to stretch the treatment period to 28 days.  Do you think this is to much exposure to copper for a Kole Tang versus the comfort that 28 days of copper should eliminate ich.  Thanks again.
<I think/believe that about all the good one can do with such treatments is accomplished in two weeks... beyond this there is a fast drop-off of benefit vs. risk of poisoning. Bob Fenner>

Re:  White Spots! II - 01/14/06
Dear Eric
<<Akila>>
I am in a big mess.
<<So I have surmised.>>
My whole system is a mess now.
<<Too much too fast my friend.>>
I am sorry to bother you this much but I have no other alternative than telling you.
<<No worries mate, I hope I can be of some help.>>
All my fish are badly infected with white spots and there are some velvety patches on them.
<<I suspect either your tank was not as "cycled' as you thought...or more likely you put too many fish in at once and overwhelmed your biofiltration.>>
They don't eat and are not active.
<<Very bad>>
My Bannerfish is very weak.  His banner fin is bitten of my wrasse so I removed the wrasse.
<<Good move...I suspect you have (had) a mimic cleaner wrasse...bad news...>>
I got hold of Chelated Copper Sulfate but there is no clear instruction on the bottle.
<<?>>
It says to use 5ml of Copper Sulfate to 40L of water.  So my tank has 300L and I should use 60ml right?
<<Mmm...by my calculations this would equate to a dose of 37.5ml.>> <The calculated gallonage is 300 liters? The actual gallonage is actually appreciably less... due to displacement by rock, gravel... RMF>
So I did it.
<<Likely you have poisoned your fish with an overdose of copper...a large partial water change is in order.  Be aware that you have also wiped out your biofiltration.  You will need to do large water changes every couple days...you will also need to replace your live rock once you finish treating these fish.>>
I have no freaking test kit to measure copper levels and it is practically impossible to find one in the local market.
<<A dangerous situation my friend.  You need/must be able to measure the copper in your tank.>>
The instruction on the bottle says to use copper for 2-4 weeks.  So does that mean I should put 60ml of copper sulfate everyday?
<<NO!...add the copper sulphate to a reading (you need a test kit!) of 15ppm...then maintain this level for 2-4 weeks as necessary.>>
My clown is on the surface level doing badly.  I am lost I feel like the end of the world.
<<I'm sorry for your/the fishes pain...this could have been averted with proper quarantine/observation/treatment before placing in the display.>>
I have 100's of very very tiny white spotty creatures running all over my tank's glass walls.  What are these?
<<Copepods?>>
Are these causing white spots?
<<I think not.>>
How do you kill them off?
<<The copper will do it.>>
If by any chance my Bannerfish survive this crisis will his fin grow back?
<<If it wasn't cropped off too close to the base it should, yes.>>
I appreciate you response.
Thanks,
Best regards,
Akila
<<For your sake/the fish’s sake Akila, do learn from this experience.  Slow down a bit and set up a proper quarantine tank.  Regards, EricR>>

Maracyn and Coppersafe Reaction 1/16/07
Boy did I screw up. <Uh-oh.> I have 125 marine tank. I had a huge case of ich...I added CopperSafe. <Doh!> The next day all my fish had pink fungus all over them. I added Maracyn. <Doh!> Now my tank looks like swamp water. <I bet.> I am losing fish one by one. <Not surprising unfortunately.> I don't know what is killing them now there is no sign of ich or the pink stuff. <The fact that you declared nuclear war on your tank.> I only added Maracyn once. <One time too many sadly.> My water STILL is swamp water green. HELP!!!!
I have already done:
50% water change <Good>
80% water change <Good>
100% water change <Good>
I have put a phosphate filter in the sump and a pantyhose sock with some granular phosphate remover.
I leave my white lights off hoping that the light won't promote growth.
Okay,
I have now replaced ALL of the following:
Live rock all 140#
Live sand all 60#
Water
Now running
Phosphate
Carbon
AmQuel and Cycle for life and water is still turning green slowly
HELP!!!!!
Emily Gansereit
<The double hit of copper and antibiotics has made your tank hostile to most all marine life.  The tank is now cycling and living organisms are starting to re-colonize the tank.  This starts with the toughest, usually lower forms of life, like free floating algae.  Best bet now is to test for copper in the water, if found do more water changes.  Get some Poly-Filters and run these along with carbon and the Phosphate remover.  Water changes are your friend for the foreseeable future.  Also get a QT tank to avoid this situation if the future.  With time and proper care the tank should return to normal.>
<Chris>

Treating SW Puffers with "Ich"  1/4/07
Hello,
<Hi Brenda, Pufferpunk here>
I have tried to find my answers on your website but I need more instructions as I have tried a few things. I am fish sitting my sons puffer while he is on vacation. Before he left he thought his puffer had ich, he quarantined him in a 15 gallon tank (he is usually in a 55) and treated with copper.
<Copper is extremely toxic & can be deadly if used incorrectly.  Levels must be measured constantly.>
After about three days he thought he noticed a small "burn" on his belly and so he put him back in the regular tank.
<Copper>
The ich still seemed to be there. Spots all over, cloudy eyes, eating funny. Holding food in his mouth and blowing it out. Then we did a three day treatment of quick cure. Spots still there. Did a water change and a very brief fresh water dip. No change. The spots are small like salt shaker. Today I noticed his eye looks like a patch of skin is peeling off. Please tell me what to do next.
<Please read: http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9
I'd also add Melafix to help heal the damage the meds have done to him.  
I hope he gets better soon.  ~PP>
Brenda

Huma Huma help 1/2/07
hello.
<Hello, Graham here.>
I have had a catastrophe... and want to help save my last fish... I purchased some turbo snails from the local pet store and after introducing them to my 75 gallon tank all my fish started scratching. I added Sea Cure and that was the end of my marine life. I lost 2 clown 2 damsel 1 yellow tang and my emperor angel.. now my trigger is left but he is still scratching away at his side. he has his whole belly red and flakey now. what can I do ? My tank was all zeros for no2, no3 and ammonia and a ph of 8.0-8.2.... I now have him out of the tank and in a quarantine.. he seems to be fine but he is scratching his skin really bad...I an dosing him with sea cure BTW.
<Very hard to diagnose a problem like this when you can't see it. Send a high-resolution .JPG that has been either compressed in an image editor or to a .ZIP file. (Make sure the file is no bigger than 500k, but preferably under 100k) If you cannot send a pic, I recommend you try to work out an identification from our FAQs using the search tool.>
                                                          Thanks
                                                         Josh
<Welcome.>
<P.S. Bob F. : Please jump in if you see a red flag I'm missing! -Graham> <<Mmm... copper poisoning... removing the copper, hope, time going by... RMF>>

Copper 12/29/06
Bob,
<Graham here, happy to help!>
I have been in the marine hobby for 25 years and have a question about copper. I have a fish only aquarium with live rock.
<How long has this setup been running & cycled?>
After adding a few fish the aquarium came down with Crypt.
<Same question as above. Are these the first fish in this system? If not, are you quarantining and/or dipping? How long after adding these specimens did symptoms appear?>
I have been treating with Sea cure Copper and testing in AM and PM. I have to add a full dose (meaning 1 drop per gallon) in the AM and PM to keep levels at .15....Is this normal?
<Normal? Yes. Firstly, know that Copper is best-utilized in a bare-bottomed tank (Hospital tank) as it it readily absorbed by any calcareous substances like L.R. & L.S. That said, you will have to *closely* monitor the Cu levels to maintain the proper .15 to .2 ppm you crave for Crypt. removal. This dosage in your display system spells problems for any inverts you plan for in the future. Hard to say without more specific info on your system like filtration, skimming, specimens. Here is a must read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/copperprodfaqs.htm >
Also does adding calcium (for coralline algae) effect copper levels?
<Hmm... I can't say I've ever heard that one posed. ...and after some (shallow) digging through the archives here, I don't see any connection between the two, but I am not chemistry buff. Try the google search of WWM and see what you turn up!> <<Mmm, yes, will precipitate copper in all formats to degrees. RMF>>
Thanks in advance and Happy New Year !!!!
<You're welcome! HNY to you too!>
E-mail from Craig Smith
<Graham Tasker>

Re: Copper & Crypt. 12/29/06 reply
To respond to your questions:    
Aquarium set up for 8 years.
Fish only (have no plans on inverts)
Have the following fish:
Adult Chrysurus Angel     8 years
Adult Red Sea Imperator Angel 7 years       
Gold Flake Angel 7 years
Red Sea Semilarvatus Butterfly 6 years
Royal Gramma 8 years
Coral Beauty Angel 4 years
Red Sea Asfur Angel 5 years
4 Neon Gobies 2 years
Purple Pseudochromis 2 years
Clown Trigger 6 years
<I'd like to see a pic of this setup.>
Aquarium is approx. 90 gallons with 2 magnum 350 with micron filters....2 18 watt UV sterilizers (Change bulbs every 6 months and are connected after the magnums). Red Sea Prizm Pro Skimmer. Emperor 400 filter (mainly used for X-PO4 and Chemi Pure. and prefiltration. Also 1/10th HP Chiller with temp set at 77 degrees. 2-150 watt HQI 14,000K bulbs with lunar lights. 2 300watt heaters. Specific Gravity at 1.019. Use only RO water and Red Sea Pro salt. 2 Rio 1100 power heads for circulation.
<I sure do like Wet/Dry with a system of this specimen-count.>
The 2 fish I recently added 2 weeks ago are:
Red sea Regal Angel
Red Sea Purple Tang
< I have to admit, this seems like a large bioload for this relatively small tank.>
All fish are total pigs when eating..... No signs of stress..... It appears only the new additions have Crypt..... Very minimal signs on any other fish The substrate is a dusting of crushed coral which is gravel washed every 2 weeks when I do a 13 gallon water change
The live rock was added 3 months ago approx. 100 lbs of I believe its called Allure (prior to that I had dead bleached coral which became a pain keeping clean.....
I did not quarantine the new arrivals (never have in past)
<Never a bad idea. Do you have the equipment to setup a small Q.T.?>
Symptoms appeared 7-10 days after adding the new fish...
<This would've been kept in a separate system... How confident are you that you properly identified the pathogen as Crypt.? If you are sure, then I wouldn't be discouraged yet. Eradication can take a little while, especially since your carbonaceous substrate and LR. is absorbing the Cu. Either way, please read these links. http://wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm  http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm http://wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm http://wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
You will be an expert after these reads.>
pH 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate < 20
phosphate 0
Alk 3.0
Calcium 350
SG 1.019
Thanks Again Graham
<You're supremely welcome, and Happy new year, Craig!>

Copper Safe, Not Safe for Everything  11/6/06
To the crew,
<Hi>
We all know that Copper Safe is supposed to do a number on marine ick, but what about other things like Soft corals (polyps, Leathers, Mushrooms)....does it have any affect on them at all? <Oh yes, and not a good one.>  Also does it have any effect on Copepods? <Yes again, and not one you want.> As always your answers are greatly appreciated.
Jon
Orlando, FL
<Get thee a QT/hospital tank for the benefit of your main tank.>
<Chris>

Re: Copper Safe, Not Safe for Everything Part II  11/6/06
A Hospital tank, I have, but...The result I'm trying to achieve is to kill off bristleworms, there are just too many of them, along with Glass anemones. <Copper is not a good solution, too indiscriminate.> I understand that if I don’t do something for them soon, they will multiply and take over the tank within months, if not weeks. <Maybe> What else can or should be done without infesting the hospital tank with bristleworms and glass anemones?
Jon
Orlando
<Cut back on feeding for the Bristleworms, and either try a Peppermint Shrimp or two or injecting the anemones with a Kalk solution.  Give a read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/aiptasia_impressions/aiptaisia_impressions.htm >
<Chris>

Copper/Biological Filter 10/24/06
Hello all,
<Hi>
Well, after 18 months of referring to your invaluable site I'm in the process of buying the "stuff" for my 227g reef tank. Including 2 quarantine tanks. One for fish (20g) and one for inverts (10g).
<Excellent>
Sooooo exciting and thanks for everything!!!
<Good luck on your new endeavor.>
Gear includes Iwaki pump, PFO MH lighting with VHO and moonlights, Euro-Reef CS250, Tunze streams and Spectrapure Maxpac RO/DI. And a refugium!    Couldn't have done it without you folks.
<Sounds Nice>
A question, please. I know copper kills the beneficial bacteria in a bio filter, right? <Mostly yes.>  But--my LFS's all use it in there fish systems continuously and tell me they have no problem with their systems having ammonia or crashing. How is this possible with copper being used all the time?
Thanks sooooo much, everyone. And Marina---what a doll.
<We like her.>
Excited in Lakewood, Ca. and love to you all
God Bless
Peter
<Whenever I have heard of a LFS doing this they are not running it at "full strength".  Probably why they have not had other problems.  To be honest I would not buy a fish that has been exposed to copper long term, pretty nasty stuff when used incorrectly.>
<Chris>

Copper/Biological Filter Part II 10/26/06
Thanks Chris,
<Sure>
But all 3 stores use it in their systems. And yes it is a lower dose. <A waste and stressful to the fish in my opinion.> But still, it doesn't effect their filtration???? Or, lower doses are not toxic to biological filter?  <Not as toxic.>
Thanks again
Peter
<Chris>

Copper and Live Rock 9/25/06
Hi Bob,
<Hi, Chris here>
Is it true that copper can kill your biological filtration system?  (Live rock, Bio Wheels). <Yes>  I have a 55 gal.  FOWLR, emperor 400, SeaClone 150 skimmer, 18 watt turbo twist, 2 Hagen 802 powerheads.  I can not keep more than 3 fish alive in there then they start dying off. <Tank infected with Ich.> My local source told me that the copper killed my live rock.  Could that be the case...
<Probably>
Thanks
Aaron
<Chris>

Re: Ick Ick Ick   7/25/06
Thanks, I am going to go the copper route then. Is Cupramine ok?
<Yes... one of the best chelated products here>
One last question please. Should I just leave the live rock currently in the 35 in a holding tank for 6 weeks to ensure the ick is not still there or can I just put the rock in freshwater for a few hours to ensure it is clean of any ick?
<Mmm, I'd likely leave it in place if you can manage to leave this system fallow for at least a month>
Thanks for your time!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick Ick Ick, Cu use and skimming   7/25/06
Sorry Bob,
<No worries>
I cannot find a definitive answer for this. Is it ok to leave my skimmer on in the quarantine tank after the Copper is added?
<Actually, need to shut the skimmer off... lest it remove the copper even more quickly than other processes combined. Bob Fenner>

Treatment of Gobies, Copper, Cupramine   7/10/06
Dear Mr. Fenner
  Thank you so much for your kind reply a little while ago, when I wrote to you regarding the terrible incident I had with my Clown Goby having a horrific reaction to copper.  I thought that I would let you know that although my subsequent water changes prevented any further damage to her, she never really recovered, and died 5 days later.
<Thank you for this update>
I had been hoping that as she made it through 48 hours, she might recover, but I think the damage was too severe.
  I also wrote to the company who makes the copper treatment, to see what their advice was on treating Gobies with copper.  I thought that you would be interested to see their reply, as they seem to think that copper does not have any ill affects on Gobies.  I would be interested to see what you think, before I reply to them:
   "Cupramine works great on most copper sensitive fish like puffers and Angels.
You will find that puffers are mush more sensitive to copper than gobies.  We have had many people use Cupramine on gobies and puffers without a problem.
I'm sorry for what your goby is going through but I can assure you it is not from the proper use of Cupramine.
One dose of Cupramine (1 ml per 10.5 gallons) will result in a copper concentration of 0.25 mg/L.  I suspect that your fishes reaction is a
result of disease or possibly you used Cupramine inappropriately.
<Possibly>
Here are some questions that may help us figure out what occurred:
Where did you get the water for the quarantine tank?
Was it freshly made salt water?  Did you check to make sure it matched pH, temperature, salinity, and that the ammonia and nitrite were at zero?
<Good questions, concerns>
Did you add any other chemical with the Cupramine?  Water conditioner, medication, ammonia remover.
Did you have a UV sterilizer running?
<This will remove the copper...>
Did you do anything that could have stressed the Goby prior to being placed in the aquarium?
Freshwater dip
Are you sure that the fish has ich or velvet?  What you describe sounds like Brooklynella.  (rapid progression, string-like material hanging off the fish)
<A valid concern. Copper compounds will not treat this protozoan complaint... but it is rare on Gobiids/oids>
Please let me know the answers to these questions and I will help you the best I CAN.
<A very nice response indeed>
Best Regards,
Seachem Tech Support"   
  Thank you for your time and help once again.
  Kind regards
  Claire
<Thank you for sending this along. There is much to know/relate concerning copper's use... Not a simple, use so much of this, in such and such condition/s. Bob Fenner>

Copper Treatment...Tangs And Other Sensitive Fish  6/21/06
I'm about to start treating my purple tang, firefish goby, royal Gramma, and neon goby with copper to rid my tank of ich once and for all.  The cleaner
shrimp and garlic helped, but the ich would always reemerge after a few days. I have been reading for WWM for the last 2 hours about copper
treatment to make sure I do it right.  From my understanding measuring the amount of copper in the water is essential, especially when dealing with
tangs and other scale-less fish/es.
<Yes>
I also read that many people seem to have trouble reading levels of chelated copper and that test kits are specific to either chelated or ionic copper.  I have a bottle of CopperSafe (chelated) and a bottle of SeaCure (ionic).  Which would you recommend I use?  I also have a Salifert copper test kit on the way in the mail.
<To measure the concentration of Copper Safe, a chelated or total copper test kit is required.  All readings should be based on the total copper or chelated
copper results and not the free copper results. The Salifert Test Kit measures dissolved or weakly chelated copper.  Strongly chelated copper will measure very low or not at all with the Salifert Kit.  I believe the Copper Safe is strongly chelated.  Bob, do you agree?> <<Is, do. RMF>>
Do you know which (if either) type of these two copper medications would the Salifert test measure more accurately?
<The Sea Cure would be my choice.>
Can I rely on this test kit?
<Yes, a very accurate kit.>
After reading several letters, it seems like many people treat the bare hospital tank as directed on the bottle but then get strange results when measuring with a test kit.
<I'm guessing the proper kit isn't being used for the type copper they are using.>
Also, I'm still confused as to the amount (ppm) and duration of treatment for tangs and other sensitive fish.     0.15-0.25 ppm of ionic or
1.5-2.0 ppm of chelated seems the standard, tangs and firefish too??
<I would monitor the copper level very close and maintain at 1.5ppm with these types of fish.>
Twenty-one consecutive days is what most people seem to recommend.  Then again I also read that Bob stated he would not treat a tang for this long and drop
treatment to 14 days instead.
<Bob, is this dated info, or can tangs be treated at 1.5ppm for 21 days safely?> <<Better to limit to minimum dose, exposure time. RMF>>
Thank you in advance
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>

Re: Crypto ... carefully deciphering copper/cupric levels, testing... carefully   6/22/06
Thanks Jason for your quick reply!
<Dave, James answered your query.>  
I failed to mention this morning that when I saw the problem had gotten much worse overnight, I sped things up and added another half dose of
Cupramine to the system.  The next half dose will bring me up to the .5 mg/L.  Yes, I am watching this with a FasTest kit, but it's terribly hard to differentiate the colors.
<Yes, the Salifert is much better in this regard.>
I'm keeping a very close eye on my dosing levels as a secondary precaution and am getting another test kit today to help me make sure I have it right.  
When I stopped at the house today over lunch, I found that the spots had dropped from the Butterfly and the Hippo.  My lion is still moderately affected, but it's not bad.  
<Should improve.>
I noticed that my Red Coris seemed very lethargic and was laying half in, half out of the substrate.  Since he was not visibly affected by the
Ich, I filled a QT quickly with 10 gallons of new seawater I mixed this morning (yes, yikes), PH and temperature adjusted and moved him into it
to get him out of the copper.  Do you feel that the Red Coris Wrasse has a lower than usual tolerance for copper?
<My opinion, yes.>
Maybe I just panicked.  My lion seems a little more sluggish than usual.  Again, maybe it's just that I am unusually vigilant when I am dealing with a "coppered" system.
I've heard that lions have a low copper tolerance. Do you agree with this,
<Do not believe so, lionfish are pretty tough customers.  Problem is, if you are having trouble determining the copper level with the test kit, then
we are not sure what your level actually is.>
and do you feel that the copper levels we are dealing with are worth exposing them to the potentially stressful QT environment?  
<QT should be a little less stressful than a coppered tank.>
Most specifically I am trying to confirm that the Cupramine levels we are dealing with (.5 to .6 mg/L) are safe for:
Red Coris Wrasse
Volitans Lionfish
Sailfin Tang
Pearlscale Butterfly
Blue Hippo Tang
Snowflake Eel
<Should be if that is the true copper level.>
I think I'll go with your advice and continue the main tank's treatment for a full 3-4 weeks.
<Yes, the length of treatment is critical to ensure all parasites have been eradicated.>
Given the progress I've made today perhaps I can gain a foothold on the lifecycle by maintaining copper and adopting a watch and wait stance.
<Yes, that is all you can do right now.  In the future, do QT new arrivals for 30 days to be sure the animal is disease free.>
Thanks again,
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Dave  

Please help - Treatment of Gobies   6/19/06
Dear Mr. Fenner
  I am writing to you in great distress, in the hope that you might be able to educate me further in the type of medications that can't be used on Clown Gobies.
  With all the best intentions in the world, I put my Citron Goby in to my quarantine tank  to treat for a whitespot/velvet infection.  I started to treat her with Copper - Seachem Cupramine, to be exact.   I only put the first days dose in.  Everything seemed fine.  Later that day I then went to browse the web for more information on the Green Clown Gobies I was thinking of buying.  I stumbled across your very informative webpage for this breed, and noted, with horror that under the disease section of your Gobies page you write,
  "Gobioids for the most part are relatively disease resistant, with the exception of one type of disease, environmental. Though they have cycloid or ctenoid scales, they have about the same intolerance of harsh chemical treatments as "naked" fishes. Many more are bumped off from copper, malachite and formalin- containing medicants than from the infectious diseases they're used against."
<Yes>
  In sheer panic, I rushed downstairs to see the horrific sight of my clown goby.  Her skin had literally started to dissolve, and there were parts of her fins eroding at the edges, and places where he skin had bubbled up.  Most horrifically, there were two places where the copper had eaten in to her body.  She also had what looked like red blood lines to the rear of her gills ... internal bleeding? Words cannot describe how devastated I am.   
  I rushed to do a 50% water change, using my main tank water, and started to run a PolyFilter, in order to significantly dilute the copper solution.  
<Good moves>
  30 hours on, she is still alive, and there has been no further damage to her skin that I can see.  I know that it is unlikely that she will survive this ordeal, but I am desperate to do all I can, and to make her as comfortable as possible.  I am daily testing the water parameters.  The QT is blacked out, and I am starting to lower the salinity, in order to keep and bacterial infections that could arise from the damage, at bay.
  Yours is the only website I have found that indicates towards this problem with Gobies.
<Mmm... a speculation re the "capacity", utility of the Net at this juncture. I and others have written (magazine articles, books) touching on this topic/issue for many years>
I have purchased a copy of your book, and have read there what you have written about this also.  
<Oh!>
  My very experienced LFS also had not heard of this problem.
  I was wondering whether you are able to tell me if this is a normal reaction by my clown goby to this treatment.
<It is. Such "toxic" treatments, even with chelated copper solutions need to be carefully measured at about the near lowest physiological dose (0.15 ppm free cupric ion equivalent)>
Also, does this happen to all Gobies?  
<Nearly all... though smaller individuals, species are more direly and quickly mal-affected>
I understand that this reaction is caused by copper, malachite and Formalin-containing medicants.  Does that mean any use of those mentioned substances, even at very low doses?
<One can... in actual practice these materia-medica are used by public aquariums, wholesalers... daily>
  Would there be any difference in reaction from chelated and non-chelated copper?
<Mmm, oh yes... The free cupric ion is really the only important measure in both/all cases. Utilizing sequestered compounds only/allows for a more "steady" dosage... The chelated is better for hobbyists and commercial settings in almost all cases. Free copper (sulfate) solutions are of value for raceway, open, culture, some high-tech. settings>
  Why is the Gobiodon reaction not a more widely know fact?
<Mmm... ours seems an esoteric field... My next guess is that there are so few aquarists that "make it to" the level of serious keeping of this huge group of fishes that they have little chance/opportunity (as yet) to communicate their observations, findings>
  I would be very appreciative of any further information and help that you could give me.
  Kind regards
  Claire Read-Ball
<I do sincerely hope that you remain active in this hobby field... And strongly encourage you to pen an article for sale to the print and electronic media in our interest for your and all's edification. Bob Fenner>

Re: Re-infestation of Marine Ich, Copper(Safe) use   6/1/06
Hi Bob and Crew,
<Laurie>
Help!  I need your advice again!
It's been a week since our first correspondence and here's what's been done and is going on:
*  All fish caught, dipped and moved to 29 gallon hospital tank on May 24 (we were up until 1 a.m.!)
*  Scott's Fairy Wrasse didn't do too well, but survived (he had spots before dipping).  He seems to have recovered and is now eating and breathing very well.  He had a few spots left; those are now gone, so the parasite is now in its second stage?
<Possibly... you did treat this tank? With?>
*  Bristletooth Tomini Tang died the next afternoon (he had spots before dipping and was breathing with difficulty)
*  Goby jumped out of the tank three times; I was there to rescue him the first two times, but not the last time :^(  He died on May 29.
*  I'm using CopperSafe.  It states that copper test should show 1.5 - 2.0 ppm.  I've found that I need to add more than the dosage documented in the instructions to get up to this level.  I'm using SeaChem test kit.  
<Yes and good>
*  Water is disgustingly cloudy.  I did 1/3 water change two nights ago, with no improvement (and added the appropriate amount of copper and tested to be sure).  
(Tank is running with an AquaClear 70 (sans carbon) and two powerheads - water should be moving at around 700 gph.)
*  Blenny is doing OK.  Thankfully, he is eating Seaweed Selects.
*  Remaining fish are doing well (Banggai and Pajama Cardinalfish and Yellow Candy Hogfish)
<And... you are testing for ammonia, nitrite?>
Here's where I need some advice.  CopperSafe states to treat for 5 - 30 days.  Article says start reducing copper after 2 weeks.  I don't really understand the article, as I read that parasites take 5 - 28 days before swimming to find a host.  As the copper levels are reduced, will it still be an effective parasite killer?
<Mmm, no... needs to be kept at a therapeutic dosage/concentration for the duration of treatment>
I thought not, which is why it's important to keep the correct level of copper??
<Yes>
So, if these were your fish, would you treat full-strength for 30 days, or start reducing after 2 weeks?
<Keep at full-strength>
If reducing, would you reduce via water changes only, or by adding carbon back to the filter?
<Likely just time going by and water changes...>
Thank you.  I really appreciate your help.
Regards,
Laurie O.
<Bob Fenner>

Copper, basses/soapfish  - 05/29/06
Hi again, I have another quick question for you. Can you treat the sixline grouper with copper safe?
<Yes>
Have a feeling you can't. I already dosed my 60 gallon tank with 75ml as per instructions, but I do not think I did the
right thing as the sixline is getting some white on him "draping". Should I get this stuff out of the tank ASAP? It has only been in the tank for two days. I have some poly filter I could put in. Thanks Again
<Please see WWM re whatever you're trying to actually treat here, copper use... Bob Fenner>

Soapfish Copper Treatment...Panic - 05/30/06
Hi, I need to know if you can treat the Soapfishes with Copper Safe.
<<As far as I am aware, yes...though I would proceed with caution/observe the fish closely for adverse reactions/distress>>
I have a clown grouper and sixline that are in a tank I have treated with Copper Safe and think I may have done the wrong thing.
<<If this is the display tank then yes, you have damaged your biological filter if nothing else>>
They just ate a good meal - so maybe I am wrong, but with the threads on your site make me think otherwise.
<<The result of a knee-jerk reaction.  You don't state why you thought you needed to medicate the fish...but is obvious you didn't research beforehand>>
Should I Poly-Filter out the copper?  Not trying to rush you, I
know it is a holiday and all - but my groupers are really cool and I don't wanna lose them.
<<Understood...Yes, I would do a 30% water change and add carbon/Poly-Filter to your filter flow path...and move the fish to a hospital/quarantine tank if they truly need medicating>>
I really appreciate your info.
Thanks - Dan
<<Regards, EricR>>
Also, my water is in good shape - barely any nitrate, but I don't think you can get it to zero while feeding groupers.
<<Indeed...a nitrate reading below 15ppm is generally considered "acceptable" on most FO/FOWLR systems.  Keep a close eye on this and perform water changes as needed as you will likely see a rise in nitrates until your bio filter recovers.  EricR>>

Soapfish Copper Treatment...Panic II - 05/30/06
Thanks for the reply, I woke up this morning and everyone looks better.
<<Ahh, good>>
I added the CopperSafe on Friday and it's been in a little over two days.  I initially treated the fish this way because they have Ick that I think was brought in by two damsels.  I did the old pour the water in the bucket and dump the fish in method.
<<I see...>>
I know, big mistake.  Shows you healthy looking fish are not always what they seem.
<<Indeed>>
Anyway... I put the CopperSafe directly in the tank because I am starting a new system in a couple of weeks and figured it doesn't really matter.
<<...?>>
So I had about 30lbs. of live rock and 20lbs. of live sand in the tank, is it all doomed or will it recover?
<<Will likely be fine>>
I also did not take the carbon out of my filtration when I added the CopperSafe, so in affect...did I weaken the treatment?
<<Mmm, yes>>
The carbon was only a couple of days old.  Don't mean to go on, it's just  that I can't really get good answers anywhere else.
<<I hope I'm being helpful>>
So I am going to take your advice and do a 30% water change and add a new Poly-Filter.
<<Excellent...the Poly-Filter will/should show some blue coloration if there is any remaining copper in the system>>
Thanks -Dan
<<Regards, EricR>>

Soapfish Copper Treatment...Panic III - 06/01/06
Hey Eric thanks again...
<<You're welcome>>
You are definitely being helpful; while on that subject... let me pick your brain some more.
<<Okay>>
The reason I said it didn't matter about treating the whole display tank was actually thought out.  1 - I am planning on getting the copper out via water change and Poly-Filter, and 2 - I just purchased a 135 gallon (to make fish only) tank with wet/dry, sump deal.
<<cool!>>
I decided now though that I would like to take my 25 gallon reef and transfer it to the 60 gallon.  I am wondering if the live rock that was treated in the 60 gallon will be ok left in as I make it into a reef set up.
<<There's a good chance the rock is fine...but this is a great opportunity to use new rock for its fresh mineral content/bio diversity>>
I have a really awesome 25 gallon reef tank and things are growing too big for the tank.  I want to transfer the whole tank, but wonder even after water changes and Poly-Filter if that is enough or will my reef stuff be in danger?
<<Mmm, may not me worth the risk for you then...>>
I am thinking the CopperSafe will be gone or mostly gone and it should be fine? I think.
<<Considering the single dose was quickly diluted/removed by the presence of carbon in your system there's good chance all will be fine...but the final decision is up to you mate>>
Thanks again Eric - Dan
<<Cheers, EricR>>

Copper  - 04/27/06
Dear Mr. Bob Fenner
<Rachel>
Thanks a lot on the last reply. I need a bit more of your valuable help. Do you think that my tank’s beneficial bacteria will adapt to chelated copper and grow over time even though copper is still in the tank?
<Can to some extent, yes>
And also is chelated copper effective to treat a tank because some people say that ionic copper is better?
<Is actually only ionic copper that is much use here. The chelating/sequestering is valuable to keep a ready dosage in solution... put another way, the use of a chelate allows one to place a much larger, slowly-de-chelating concentration in place...>
Why? It’s pretty hard to find a good test kit for chelated copper. Do you know of any good brand that’ll do the job because Seachem test kit didn’t work at all?
<There are several... see/use the Net re>
From the day that I got my Bannerfish it only eats dried worms and the LFS said it’s not that nutritious. I heard that Vitamin C is really good for fish so is it alright if I dip dried worms in Vitamin C and feed it?
<Mmm, marine fishes drink appreciable amounts of their environment... and there are ancillary benefits of adding vitamins directly to the water... This is what I would do here>
Also I got a Vitamin C liquid from a Pharmacy and this certain brand is for little children. Its pure Vitamin C. Do you think it’ll be good for fish? Best regards.
<All Vitamin C molecules are identical, of use>
Rachel
<Bob Fenner>

Copper, Bubbles & Yellow Color  - 04/23/06
Hi Mr. Bob Fenner
<Rachel>
First of all your site is great! Learnt a lot and still learning.
<Ah, good>
I have an 80G Marine tank running for about 3 months now. It’s a fish only tank with one Volitans Lionfish, a Bannerfish, a Clarkii Clownfish and one Klunzinger's Wrasse.
<This last... the Thalassoma wrasse is a beauty but requires quite a bit of space to move to stay happy...>
I have cycled it and was running great for a couple of months but recently developed some problems. First thing is that I saw 2 white little spots of my clown and one spot on my Banner’s fin after about one month of no signs of disease can that happen?
<Oh yes>
So I was worried and called the LFS they offered me Chelated Copper immediately so I came home added it directly to my tank as instructed.
<Mmm... not to your main tank...>
I took the Activated Carbon out of my Canister and switched off the protein skimmer following the instructions of the LFS as they told me it removes copper. Did I do a bad job?
<Quite likely...>
Will the Copper affect my Beneficial Bacteria?
<Yes>
Because there is a slight detection of Nitrite? And I don’t have a QT. Also my water is slightly yellow for the last couple of weeks and I don’t know why?
<The lack of carbon, skimming, the copper effects...>
Is it a sign of overfeeding? What can I use to get rid of the yellow?
<See the above>
My tank has developed a lot of bubbles recently on the surface although I have two powerheads running smoothly and also have a powerful airstone? Is it because of the copper?
<Yes... the effects thereof>
Is there anyway to stop this bubble collection ??
<See the above...>
  My fish seems to be okay as they behave normally but my lion seems to rest a lot but he eats very well? Do you think this is normal?
<... perhaps>
And how do you calculate whether a fish is rapid breathing?
<Counting with the use of a time device... tapping a pencil on a piece of paper if rapid...>
I’m planning to add live rock very soon but I don’t to how to do that with copper in my water is there any way to remove copper before adding live rocks?  Please let me know what you think of my situation. Hope to here from you soon. Thanx a billion.
<Mmm, used to be millions... more evidence of inflation. Your answers and many more related items of use are posted on WWM... Please start reading here: http://wetwebmedia.com/copperfa.htm
and on to the linked files at top. Bob Fenner>
Rachel

Copper Treatment    3/17/06
Hi there, <Hello.>   
  It is me again. I would like to tap your vast experience on the copper treatment for the following kinds of fish which I currently have and experience a Ich outbreak.  Would they survive a copper treatment? & which one I should NOT treat with copper or reduce dosage?
  1. Regal Angel
  2. Coral Beauty -- a dwarf angel
  3. Firefish
  4. Cleaner Wrasse ( have been with me for 1.5 years).?  <Lucky you.>
  5. Red Shoulder Fairy Wrasse
<All can be treated with copper, just be sure to monitor with a copper test kit.  Doses should not exceed 0.2ppm.  Do google our web site for copper treatment info.>   
  Your help is much appreciated.  <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
  Regards.

Copper in FOT.. Workable Solution?   3/16/06
Hi Bob & Team. I wish you all well. You have been GOOD to our hobby. Couldn't have done it without you guys.
   <Glad to help... though it's obvious it is getting past time to "cast our nets" out for more help... We're up some two k sessions per day over a few weeks ago...>
  I would like to confirm the following treatment regime before I carry it out & I look forward to your usual prompt good quality response.
   <Will try to deliver>
  In my situation  when there was Ich/Marine Velvet outbreak in a bare-bottom FOWLR tank. All LRs had been removed from the tank (making it FOT) and it was observed that bio filter not adversely affected as there was no ammonia surge. Is it possible to go for copper treatment in this FOWLR turned FOT (Fish Only Tank)?
<Yes... with a few caveats. Copper compounds and free cupric ion can/will suppress nitrification... so ammonia et al. must be monitored, new water stored for change-outs...>
Since there is no Live Rocks and no Live sands (to begin with), With pumps, powerheads, skimmers and chiller as only gears in water, I assume it is alright to go copper treatment in main display. Can I get your confirmation? Would copper kill all my existing nitrifying bacteria?
   <Likely so... though with careful application (a few times a day)... using chelated... this effect can be more/less managed>
  Treating Main display tank in this manner will serve as good alternative, in my case of FOT, compared to catching all 6 fish out and quarantine them in 3 x QTs + fallow the main tank (which is FOT now). Not to mention the poisonous ammonia/nitrite issues that pop up often in new QTs all the time. For your info, the LR are put aside in a rubber maid bucket to keep alive during this treatment period.
   <Yes... one other of those aforementioned caveats: the amount of "interfering" biological material in your "live substrate removed" system is going to absorb some of the copper material... Much more than a purposeful "treatment tank">
  Another question to ask is: what is your experience in Copper Safe (Mardel) vs. Cupramine (Seachem)?
<Both are fine, reliable/consistent products. Have used vast quantities of both>
I have both and I am not sure which one to use for treating my FOT main tank. From what I read from instructions, Copper Safe requires 30 days of treatment and Cupramine is 14 days. Should I then infer that Copper Safe (Chelated Copper Sulfate) is less concentrated and slower? If I want faster treatment, I should go with Cupramine?
   <Both... should be used for the same period of time... somewhere between these two time-frames actually...>
  Copper Safe needs to be effective from 1.5ppm - 2 ppm (from instruction) and Cupramine is 0.5ppm. Now, I am confused on why such great discrepancy? Not to mention that your site here says 0.2-0.3 is ideal.
   <Let's try to clear this up (for sure) here... the last values are for Cu++, free cupric ion... the two sets ahead are for (broken by testing protocol) chelated copper compounds... Is this clear?>
  One last point is I intend to change to bigger tank as my fish is going to outgrow this 2.5 year old tank. So no reef tank set up will be done on this current tank. Good reason for me to go treatment this way. Hope you can see my rationale.
   <Yes, though, assuredly, copper is "used up", almost always becomes complexed/lost within reasonable time frames from use in such systems... weeks, months after use such gear can be used with non-vertebrates.>
  Thanks in advance for your helpful advice, as always. :).
   <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Copper and Silicone  03/9/06
Will CopperSafe effect <affect> my silicone?  <The silicone will absorb some copper but no harm will come to the silicone.  James (Salty Dog)>
Pls help

Copper & Epsom Salt?  - 03/05/06
Hi, Bob, <James today>
It's me again. I have asked questions on Ich-Attack, Hyposalinity & Epsom salt ..etc.  and you have been such a patient consultant to have provided me with the effective answers and suggested me to the route of chelated copper.
Well, I will follow your advice to administer chelated copper sulfate ("CopperSafe" from Mardel) treatment on the sick fish in my FOWLR ( I will remove the Live rocks first).
<<...  there is still "too much" other "stuff" here to use copper. RMF>>
The questions I have for you are :_
1. As I have treated an Anthias with Epsom salt for past few days, would chelated copper sulfate interfere/react with Epsom Salt ( I believe is Magnesium Sulfate) and cause any toxic compound or making copper toxic for the fish? <Should not.>   
2. What's the best way to eliminate toxic ammonia/nitrite arising from administering copper treatment in aquarium? Would Amquel+ from Kordon be able to do the job here or would it  interfere with the copper to make it toxic? <It shouldn't, but I would do small water changes instead and add CopperSafe to the new water.  Do use a copper test kit to ensure an effective dose is maintained.> Please advise.
3. Is it true that copper will be toxic in low pH? <Should not, and you shouldn't allow the pH to drop to begin with.>   
Best regards & thanks in advance. You have been most helpful!! <You're welcome, and do search/read on copper treatment on our site.  James (Salty Dog)>

Copper treatment  - 3/1/2006
Hi Crew,
<Chris>
Perhaps you guys can help me.  I've been treating my fish only marine system with Cupramine for an outbreak on ich.
<... not a good idea to treat the main tank itself...>
I've tested the levels with both the SeaChem kit and the Salifert kit and it’s always been about 0.4
<A bit high... have you read on WWM re?>
On day 3 of the treatment I lost a regal angel and my other tangs and butterfly’s were shaking, darting around and most stopped feeding.
<... poisoned>
  I've tested all the water parameters and apart from the copper (0.4) they are all okay.  On day 4 I lost a yellow tang and then a red tail pearl scale.  Obviously I stopped the treatment and removed the copper with PolyFilter but I am totally baffled by the strong reaction the fish had to a well regarded product (Cupramine).  
The ich was not serious enough to explain the deaths and now the copper has been removed the fish are almost back to normal and yes the ich is still there.  Here's the thing, i am running a sulphur denitrator on the system and I’m wondering if you are aware of any toxic reactions which may have occurred when copper mixed with the sulphur in the low ph of the reaction chamber.
<... could be>
I may be completely off on this explanation but I know these units are fairly new and if this was somehow linked to my experience I’d like to warn others.  One last point, I stripped down the denitrator and cleaned the sulphur beads with water.  I reconnected it to the system after the copper had been removed and whilst I was commissioning it i.e. letting the water run through it fully open the fish started flicking and shaking again before I finally switched it off.  Any idea what’s happening?
Many thanks
Chris
<For reasons gone over and over on materials archived on our site, I would not treat a display tank as you have done. The free copper (what you're likely relating, measuring) is too high for the species listed... How to put this... there is a narrow range of efficacy/toxicity with copper... "Some is good, too little is worthless, a bit too much is poison". Read my friend. Bob Fenner>

Cupramine, filter bed safe?  - 3/1/2006
Greeting WetWeb people!  I hope all is well with you.  My  question concerns Seachem Cupramine.  I have a Royal Gramma with ich (he  was the only guy in
the 24g reef tank).  I have removed him and placed him  in a 10 gallon with a few pieces of live rock,
<...>
and a marineland bio-wheel 100  filter (tanks up to 20g).   
Here are the questions finally after much, much reading in the Copper  FAQ's.
Is this going to effect my bio-wheel or my live rock bio-filter at  all?  
<Mmm, yes, likely will interrupt nitrification... You'll have to monitor, have new water ready for change-outs>
Seachem Tech via telephone said it won't be enough to be terribly  concerned due to it being ionic and amine based.
<Only experience will/can tell...>
I wanted to get you guys  and gals take on this.
<Mmm, a bit less effect (on "average") than free/ionic copper use, but still will likely subtend...>
Obviously some copper will be absorbed by the live  rock,
<You'll want to remove this... will absorb almost immediately>
but that's ok...I'll be testing regularly.
<... try it...>
By the way, would you  truly go with the Cupramine, or the other Seachem product called  Paraguard?  I've also read of
some people having good success with it  against ich (In a QT of course!!!)  
Thanks all for your time and  advice!!!
<... depends on a mix of variables... Both are efficacious... but would try one OR the other. Bob Fenner>

Copper removal  - 02/27/06
I had an outbreak of marine ich right and added copper. I want to reduce the copper levels soon because I recently installed a UV filter. I know I can't turn it on until the copper is gone but I also have very porous volcanic rocks as decoration. Is there a special way to clean them to get rid of the copper it absorbed or should I just take them out? <Read FAQ's here for info.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/curemovalfaqs.htm>
Thanks. <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>

Skimmers/Operation & Disease/Treatment   2/22/06
Hello, <Hello> I got two quick question I hope you can help me with. First, what is the difference between wet skimming and dry skimming and
which is better for nutrient export? <Dry skimming produces dryer foam and exports nutrients more efficiently.  Wet skimming generally produces a tea like color in the collection cup and not as productive as dry skimming.>
Second, I have a ten gallon hospital tank and I am treating my blue tang for marine ich using Mardel Coppersafe and I need to make a small water change
(2 gallons enough?). <Yes.> After the water change do I reapply more Coppersafe or
just leave the 12 ml I added in the beginning?  Thanks and you guys rock. <You should use a copper test kit when using copper to ensure an effective dose is always present and  monitor on a daily basis.  Tangs are sensitive to copper and overdosing can cause more harm than good.  James (Salty Dog)>
Walid Medications/Copper/Dosing
So when testing copper, what level would be too high when using Copper
medication? <You should strive to  maintain 0.20ppm, no higher.  James (Salty Dog)>

Disease/Ich ... actually copper use  02/12/06
Dear Crew,
Thanks again for the help and your quick reply. <You're welcome.>
Just a few more questions.  First, I used the recommended dosage of Copper Safe which brought the level to 2.0 total ppm of chelated copper.<I hope it's not 2.0.  Should be 0.2ppm.>  According to the test kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals)  this is total copper.  Is this sufficient? <Yes.> I'm asking because even after a couple of days the fish are still scratching even after an initial fresh-water dip before being quarantined.  <The 0.2 level needs to be maintained for at least 21 days. Not going to see overnight results.  Do check copper level at least daily and adjust. James (Salty Dog)> <<Doh! 2.0... RMF>>

Disease/Ich  - 2/11/2006
Dear Crew, <Hello Jeff.>
Thank you for all the great info I've learned since I discovered your website. <You're welcome.>
My tank came down with ich and I've moved everyone into a q-tank with the exception of my hermits.  I was wondering if they need to move also?  Do hermits harbor ich parasites? <No to both.>
Also, should I change treatment to ionic copper?  The q-tank was treated with chelated copper (Copper Safe).  I've ordered a copper test kit from a supplier to the water industry so I can get accurate readings. <Whether you use chelated or ionic you still need to test daily to ensure effective levels of copper are present.  The copper choice is yours to make.>
One last thing, if I let my show tank sit fallow for a month with nothing in it (meaning nothing excreting into the water), how do I keep my biological media from dying off? <Your hermits should keep some level of bacteria active.  I wouldn't put all the fish back at once though.  Do one a day starting with the most timid.  This will allow the bacteria to adjust without getting to dangerous levels.>
Thanks again for your help. <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Sincerely,
Jeff

Ich / copper / knowledge transference  2/7/06
Hello,
<Hello>
I'm about to fire up the QT tank and treat all of my fish for Ich. I have a compressed Toby and want to double check and make sure he will be okay with Copper Sulfate?  I think all of my other fish should be fine.
<I'd keep the therapeutic dose at the low end (0.15-0.20) and use a chelated brand>
Also, how long should I treat with copper in the QT tank before I start adding carbon to remove the copper?  
Thanks
David
<Much, much more to state here... and is stated on WWM... see there re Crypt, Copper use... Bob Fenner>

Copper overdose in Purple Tilefish?   1/21/06
Bob,
<Art>
I recently purchased a Purple Tilefish, who was eating like a pig, four times a day. The second day, I noticed a light outbreak of ich on him,
<... no quarantine>
so I began to treat him with Seachem Cupramine (He is sharing a 30 gal. quarantine tank,
<Oh!>
only glass and water, with a Comet, who has shown no symptoms). I built up to the recommended dose at half the manufacturer's recommended schedule, and as I got nearer to 6L (the total dose recommended for 30 gal., in order to reach 0.5 ppm), I dosed in increments of one fourth the manufacturer's directions. I did this
because there is very little info available on the Purple Tilefish, and I suspected he was sensitive to copper.
<You are correct here>
He tolerated the dose with no side effects whatsoever to a total of 4.25L (between 0.25 and 0.5 ppm), but the morning after I added another .75L, to a total dose of 5.25L,
he was listless, stopped begging for food, stopped eating, started twitching his head, and he has the darkened, splotchy areas on his body
(spine and around the eyes) that I have come to associate with copper poisoning (yes, I have done this before).
<Yes...>
I immediately performed a 10 gal. (one third) water change, and installed a couple of poly filters to remove the copper. A day later, he is still alive, but also is still not eating, still twitching, still has the dark areas, and one eye appears to be slightly popped, although not cloudy.
<All symptomatic...>
The Comet, meanwhile, appears to be fine. He may have skipped a couple of meals, but he has resumed eating.
Are the symptoms I described consistent with copper poisoning, in your experience?
<Yes>
Can fish recover from this, and if so, will his normal coloring return, and what about twitching he pop eye?
<All can be recovered from>
This is the first time I have seen these symptoms associated with copper poisoning.
<Mmm, would bear your "writing all up", presenting as an article, pitch to hobbyists, professional aquarists>
As far as the Comet is concerned, I am naturally reluctant to continue his quarantine period  with copper. If he shows no symptoms of ich for the rest of his quarantine (another week and a half), can I add him to my display tank at that time, and be reasonably sure that I have not introduced the parasite to the display tank?
<I might risk this... passing the fish through a prophylactic dip (just slightly reduced spg, a spritz of formalin mixed in)>
I recently finished going fallow, and I don't want to do it again, but I have more fish on the way that I need to put into quarantine.
I would very much appreciate your expert advice.
Thanks,
Art
<Difficult to state what I might due w/o looking at the animal, but am inclined to encourage your moving it... lest it perish otherwise. Bob Fenner>

CopperSafe... copper use period   1/20/06
We have been dealing with Ich since we put up our tank, we were treating with CopperSafe.  The first set of fish all died. We emptied, cleaned, and changed everything on our tank.  Now our new fish have it.  We are treating with the CopperSafe, which says to add 1tsp. / 4gal.
<Mmm, with testing...>
And this treats for one month.  It has been almost three weeks and it is still there.  It says the treatment lasts for one month.  Does this mean that I only need to add the solution to the water once a month.
<Negative>
  I am confused.  And my Bala Shark, an Guppies seem to be dying once again. I would really appreciate any suggestions, since I have already spent over 100.00 buying and replacing my sons pets in the last three months.
                Thank You
<One should only use copper products while simultaneously utilizing test kits... to assure therapeutic levels... for either chelated (as here) or free cupric ion formats... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/copperprodfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Ich!!!!! Don't believe what you hear or read... gather data, think, then act
I've never had a problem with the 30 gallon reef tank that my children (10 & 12) set up (with my help) they do weekly water checks and everything has always been good Calcium 380, Alkalinity is 8.0, they do 10% water changes each week.  Then over the holidays decided they would add 2 Tank Raised True Percula's.  They were quarantined for 2 weeks by a friend.   Then added to the tank now three weeks later Ich.  
<Even the best laid plans...>
Went out and bought another tank to do our own quarantine/hospital tank.  Here is my problem,   from reading (not enough)  I did make sure the salinity was 1.019, temperature 80, the LFS told me don't need to do a dip, and that the tank had to have coral,
<?>
plus said that no one sold copper tests anymore.
<Incorrect>
   Where I said I saw them online and they said but they will email you that they are out of stock.   Thinking maybe something had changed.  Believed them and said okay.  Added the copper, but now I think do I have to tear it all apart and take out the bottom coral and leave it's bottom bare?
<Sigh... yes>
(I mean the tank not the fish!)  My children want to save these fish and the cost I feel in the long run was worth the cost and it was a good lesson in learning for them.  But is this a lesson also that some people can and will advise you wrong even if they are a well established LFS?
<Yes, unfortunately... we're people, not the pope... fallible>
  Please advise.  P.S.  My children even have a battery back up on there because when we have these rain storms and power  outages here in Northern California.  I want them to do this correctly and learn.  Now they want to take Scuba to learn and experience the places where all their corals come from.  Your web site has taught them so much and they have even purchased your books.   Thank you for any insight.  M
<Your answers, protocol are posted, over and over on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Porcupine puffer disease diagnosis... unsuitable water quality, copper exposure,  - 01/12/2006
Hello,
Your web site seems quite helpful in disease diagnosis, so I hope you can help.  I have a 100 gal. saltwater tank that I have had for about 8 months and have had the porcupine puffer for about 7 or so.  The problem is that he has not eaten anything in the last 2 weeks, he is still very active and always greets me with excitement.
<... have you read on WWM re feeding puffers, diodontids?>
The water quality is good salt 1.022
<I would raise this to near seawater strength... 1.025>
ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates less than forty
<Keep under twenty...>
as far as can tell.  I do use copper in the recommended dosage
<Stop! This is toxic to your livestock... should not be used on a continuous basis... some folks think never on puffers... can/will account for the non-feeding by itself>
and have so since I have had the tank.
<This is a mistake>
He shows no external signs of disease, he acts hungry  when I bring his feeding cup around but when i put the shrimp in he goes for it once or twice then just lets it fall to the bottom.  Before I could barely feed my bottom feeder because he would eat everything I put it.  I know I need to vary his diet other than shrimp but as of now he does not want to eat, food suggestions would be helpful.  The damsel, sailfin, and snowflake eel are all happy/healthy fish. I don't know what to do he does not match any disease charts he just wont eat.   Thanks
<... not a disease, unless you consider iatrogenic/induced, poor supplied circumstances as cause... Read on my friend. Your answers are on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Copper blind   1/4/06
Happy new year from British Columbia <And to you from sunless Michigan>
I would have asked a question long ago but your web site seems to answer pretty well everything. Anyway my dilemma is around copper treatments. I picked up CopperSafe and a test kit which will read the levels of free copper and chelated copper sulfate (Aquarium pharmaceuticals). I measured precisely 16 gallons (US) of salt water, and added exactly the recommended amount of copper and added it to the hospital tank. The recommended level from the directions  should have ended up being 1.5 -2.0 ppm, but it seems to be well below that amount. The colour on the chart makes me feel colour blind, but so do all the other test kits I have. My other family members back me up with opinions about the colour on the chart.
The hospital tank contains a heater, air stone, 10 pvc fittings and I'm using an aqua-clear 70 with a regular foam pad to help capture solid wastes. The test kit was the only one I could find within 50 miles of here. (the Question) : Do I trust the manufacturers amounts or should I trust the test kit or could the addition of the Aqua-clear affect the results by absorbing the copper in the foam pad? <I'd trust the test kit.  Keep in mind that PVC, substrate, etc, will absorb some of the copper which is why you are reading a lower level than expected.  For copper to be effective you should test on a daily basis and adjust if necessary.> I checked out Hach copper test kits and they are over 10 times the cost of an normal  priced one. There doesn't seem to be any in stock in BC. My fish are all in the hospital tank right now and I'd hate to put them through all this for a dose that won't do the trick. <Understood.  Do maintain an effective dose for a minimum of 21 days.>  
I'll take a second to thank everyone at wet web media and all the people who write in with their questions. All the problems and answers are very helpful in this fascinating hobby.
<Thank you.  James (Salty Dog)>

Hyposalinity vs. Copper  12/22/05
Hello WWM crew, <Hello Misty>
Looking forward to seeing and meeting some of you at our Next Wave Conference at the end of January here in Dallas.  I owe you all some in-person "thank you's" for the past four years of advice and help.
<We look forward to that>
Anyway, the decision at hand today is treating ich with hyposalinity vs. copper.  I've been lucky to not have to deal with ich for the first four years as a hobbyist.  I guess my time is up on that front. <We all get a turn at one time or another.>
I have a Kole Tang that has had a break-out.  The only other affected fish is my bi-color blenny - right now at least.  Of course, all of this happens two days before I leave town for the holiday (I leave this Friday), but my husband will be in town to carefully administer whatever regimen is necessary (this being the same husband who turned off the lights on my fuge a couple of years ago for 4 days because it bugged him while he was watching TV...hmmm). <Ah, husbands are like wives.>
So, if you are in my shoes, what would you do?  I've heard about tangs vs. copper.  I've heard that copper can be more effective than hyposalinity.  Here's what I have to work with immediately:
120-gallon display tank containing inverts and the following fishes:
1 Banggai Cardinal
1 Bicolor Blenny
2 False Percs
1 Target Mandarin
3 Green Chromis
1 Kole Tang
29-gallon baby Banggai grow-out tank, with a one-year old "baby" in it - so it's cycled and ready to go, has a Remora skimmer, too.
Empty 75-gallon tank
My initial thought is to remove the affected fish immediately to the 29-gallon and begin a treatment of some sort (would appreciate thoughts on the best treatment option).  Then, when I get back into town (next Monday night), set up the 75-gallon tank and remove the rest of the fish from the display in order to give them a bigger QT/treatment tank and allow for the fallow period of the display tank.  If the other fish are not affected, then I could possibly put them in the 75 and only have the affected fish in the 29 as well.  Thoughts?  Advice?  Magic potions?
Thanks again, in advance.  I owe you a cocktail when you get to Dallas. <Always nice to be on the receiving end.>
:-) <Misty, I'd put the affected fish into the 29, remove the skimmer using a power head for circulation and begin (immediately) treatment with a chelated copper (Copper Safe) as I'm thinking your husband is not going to test copper levels and adjust on a daily basis if you use the non-chelated form, and, you may not want him to.  Then I'd follow your plan of relocating the remaining fish into the 75 and let the display go fallow for a month. You may very well end up treating all the fish in the 75 as others will probably be infected.  I'm posting a link on the subject for your reading.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm  Good luck.  James (Salty Dog)>
Kind regards, <And Happy Holidays to you>
Misty Johnson

Re: Hyposalinity vs. Copper...decisions, decisions 12/24/05
Thanks so much for the quick reply. <You're welcome.>  Another quick question - what if catching the tang is his doom vs. trying something else?  He was hiding out last night in an alley between two live rock sections. <If the ich is visible and nothing is done to correct it, he will be doomed anyway.  At this stage its much less stressful on the tang if he were by himself.>
So, I did what I could and picked up a cleaner shrimp and "Marine Max" - as recommended by my LFS based on his prior experience with the product and a yellow tang in a new tank with ich. <The cleaner shrimp isn't going to eradicate the parasite.> I picked up some Garlic
Xtreme as an appetite booster, <This helps.> since Mr. Tang is looking a little thin as well.
IF I can catch him without r