Coppersafe as a prevention?
Hello, just wanted to thank you for all the great help and information you've given in the past since I've started this hobby.
<Welcome>
My question is regarding the dogface puffer we've just purchased. The place where we bought him was very informative and helpful, and recommended that we use Coppersafe in our tank as a prevention against some of the diseases that are so common with this type of fish.
<Not a good idea... to use copper prophylactically or on/with puffers period>
We've treated the tank before, so I know that there is no problems with the sand, rock etc. since it is probably already dead. (Our LFS didn't inform us that using this type of treatment was harmful to our live rock the last time we used it.) Our tank has been doing great for almost a year now with no problems except for the crappy Seaclone skimmer we purchased. I was wondering about treating it with copper, how much should be used for just preventing disease? I figured that doing a full treatment wasn't necessary since there hasn't been an outbreak. Thanks ahead of time for your help!
<Please use the search tool or indices: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/index.html re "Copper Use", "Puffer Disease"... and stop this practice. Bob Fenner>

Copper use
Hello Bob.  I just wanted to get you to clarify a passage in "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist."  The section is from page 161 in regards to copper treatments, "Nevertheless, copper, especially raw copper sulfate or homemade concoctions, should not be continuously applied to a home aquarium system, as it has been found to have cumulative deleterious effects."  That means that copper can build up to poisonous levels in a fish's tissue even if one only applies the medications at its recommended concentration, correct?
Thanks,
Steven
<That/this is correct. Periodic exposure to copper/compounds may be efficacious, but not continuous. Bob Fenner>

Mysterious Fish Losses
Hello Scott?
<Good morning!>
Well thank you for the supportive words about it not being my fault about the sudden Anthias death, the dealer replaced them with 3 Banggai cardinals.
<A nice choice! Very accommodating of him/her>
I did the same welcoming freshwater ph adjusted with methyl blue dip, and they were fine for 3 days but today 2 of them died.  All of my levels still check out as being good but this is four fish in less than a week, it makes me so sad.
<I'm really sorry to hear that...>
I do not have copper in my quarantine tank which the dealer said is a mistake, but I choose to see if the fish is sick before treating with medicine but maybe this is costing lives because I am not detecting illness soon enough.
<Well- I respectfully disagree with your dealer. I am very pro-copper, but I don't like to use this, or any medication on a prophylactic basis. IMO, medications should only be used when treating a specific disease. Many fishes do not handle copper well, and some fishes can suffer greatly after prolonged exposure to it. I like your procedure of the freshwater/Methylene blue dip. I have never lost a fish using this procedure. If a fish is so far gone that simply not using copper during quarantine led to its death, something is wrong. Either the fish were not healthy to begin with, or there is some other factor at play>
In my observation of the cardinals, I thought I only saw one of
them that ever ate, although this is hard to say for certain because they all look the same.  I was feeding frozen Mysis.  I think the one that ate is the one that is still alive.  Also today before they died they had white trailing feces, I thought maybe a bacterial infection.  I gave them another dip and they died shortly after.  So I have this one survivor, I don't think he is
eating any more and I saw some white feces, so what should I do for him, or is he a goner?  Should I try Maracyn or Maracyn 2, or copper in case of parasites, which I don't see any signs of but I could be missing something.  
<I agree- sounds like an internal bacterial infection. Antibiotics should be used. Hopefully, the fish will make it. Generally speaking, these types of infections usually are the result of poor water quality, parasites of some sort, or even injury. I'm not going to point fingers, but I wonder how the overall water quality is at your dealer. Does he seem to select healthy fishes? Sounds like something is not right...>
Also if by some miracle he lives, (I am not feeling very optimistic any more) will he be okay by himself or should I try to find him a mate?
<I would either keep them alone, or in odd-numbered lots (3, 5, etc)>
I have read contrasting things about this.  
This hobby is very stressful for me, I hate when any type of living thing dies.  I was so happy and proud of myself after saving my first two fish from ich, through a 2 month hospital and copper and fallow period and now they are so healthy and happy back in the main tank, but now I can't keep any new fish
alive for more than 3 days, what is going on?  Like I said all my levels check out and I am doing stuff by the book (Bob Fenner's').  I don't think I will get fish from that dealer any more in case that is the problem, he runs copper in all his tanks and thinks I should too.  Any advice will be greatly appreciated, you guys really are wonderful helping everyone like you do.  
Thank you.  Kylee Peterson
<Well, Kathy-first of all, don't blame yourself...You are using valid techniques of dipping and quarantine, and it sounds like you're well-disciplined in tank maintenance. It is never pleasant to lose any fishes, but you are doing a great job. I strongly disagree with your dealer about running copper on a continuous basis in your display. It simply is not a great idea for long-term use. Maintaining therapeutic levels of copper is tough enough in a bare quarantine tank for most people, so trying to do this in a tank with rocks, sand, etc. is really tough! And, if you ever intend to keep invertebrates of any kind in the tank in the future, copper will be a constant concern. Your desire to avoid this dealer is a good one, IMO! These losses are too similar to be coincidence! Hang in there, Kathy- you're doing just fine...Unfortunately, bad experiences like this are part of what make us better hobbyists in the long run. Good luck! Scott F>

Copper
Dear WWM crew:  
Greetings & ongoing thanks for your superb site!
<You're welcome>
I recently learned that my LFS continuously runs copper in his FO tanks to cut down on parasites. Is this common practice in the industry?
<Yes, common... even in public aquariums>
Is this a good idea?
<No, not really. Would be fine if this were a part of "step 2" in a strict ongoing quarantine process for all incoming fishes... part 1 being just holding fishes in a separate system and going to pt. 2 should they show evidence of parasitic infestation...>
Should I be concerned about its affect on the fish? I have not changed my quarantine practices. Thanks, Steve Allen
<Mmm, well, I am inclined to encourage you to purchase "short term" exposure fishes (a few weeks) and avoid longer-exposure (month or more) ones. This "middle ground", not too new, not too over-exposed will serve you best>
P.S. I was at my local Petco last night & noticed that they had two tanks (shared filtration) full of clowns with white spots all over them and fins rotting off. They were not that way the other day. The young woman working there hadn't noticed and doesn't know jack about saltwater, so I told her she'd better let whoever is in charge know that they have a serious problem in those tanks and the ones connected to them. I guess I won't buy saltwater there any more.
<Don't give up proffering your knowledge, advice... for all's sakes. Bob Fenner>

Bio-balls and LR, CuSO4 in commercial systems
Dear Bob,
<Charles>
Thx for your advice. Can I place bio-ball and live rock together in my holdings without removing any of them?  Will nitrate level going down?
<Yes, and yes, it should>
I guess UV light is still cheaper than Ozonizer such as SANDER.
<Yes... to buy and operate>
What do you think of alternative such as adding Copper Sulphate? Do you know the exact dosage for 1 litre such that it will kill all bacteria but not toxic enough to kill the fishes?
<Very dangerous to use copper sulfate on an ongoing basis... if you do get involved in such practice, make your choice a chelated/sequestered variety (e.g. Coppersafe)... I encourage you to develop and adhere to a protocol of pH-adjusted freshwater baths (on arrival) instead to discount the introduction and spread of ectoparasites. Information re these practices can be understood from a cursory reading of materials archived on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Pls advise.  Cheers,  Charles

Copper
Hi all-
A quick question. My LFS mentioned that they treat all their tanks with copper.
<Yes, a standard practice for some.>
They have two large displays, one with LR and one with sand, where they keep inverts and corals, snails, shrimps, etc. And they have a bank of about 12 smaller tanks where they keep the incoming fish that arrive every Wednesday. The whole system seems to run on one big loop.
<I would be surprised if the liverock, sand, coral, and inverts were not separate.>
Since the large tanks have healthy looking inverts I have to assume that these tanks are not subjected to the copper treatment.
<I agree.>
But it seems like they would be. And what concerns are there about introducing these fish into an reef tank?
<Any proper acclimation procedure discards the store water. Take a look at the coverage here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/acclimat.htm and related files; FAQ's, quarantine, and dips.>
I assume they have to package the fish in untreated water, right?
<No, they will be bagged in water containing copper.><<Mmm, doubtful. I am very sure Steven is right in stating that the non-fish marine livestock are on a separate, though possibly their own recirculating/combined, filtration system. RMF>>
Is this a normal procedure?
<For some stores. -Steven Pro>