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FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis 27

Related Articles: Marine Ich: Fighting The War On Two Fronts, Cryptocaryoniasis, Parasitic Disease, Quarantine, Quarantine of Marine Fishes, 

Related FAQs: Best on Crypt, Crypt 1, Crypt 2, Crypt 3, Crypt 4, Crypt 5, Crypt 6, Crypt 7, Crypt 8, Crypt FAQs 9, Crypt FAQs 10, Crypt FAQs 11, Crypt FAQs 12, Crypt FAQs 13, Crypt FAQs 14, Crypt FAQs 15, Crypt FAQs 16, Crypt FAQs 17, Crypt FAQs 18, Crypt FAQs 19, Crypt FAQs 20, Crypt FAQs 21, Crypt FAQs 22, Crypt FAQs 23, Crypt FAQs 24, Crypt FAQs 25, Crypt FAQs 26, & FAQs on Crypt: Identification, Prevention, "Causes", Phony Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work,  Products That Work By Name: Free Copper/Cupric Ion Compounds (e.g. SeaCure), Chelated Coppers (e.g. Copper Power, ), Formalin Containing: (e.g. Quick Cure),  About: Hyposalinity & Ich, Treating for Crypt & Sensitive Fishes:  By Fish Group: Sharks/Rays, Morays and other Eels, Mandarins/Blennies/Gobies, Wrasses, Angels and Butterflyfishes,  Tangs/Rabbitfishes, Puffers & Kin...  &  Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Marine Velvet Disease, Biological Cleaners, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Best Quarantine FAQs, Quarantine 1, Quarantine 2, Quarantine 3, Quarantine 4, Quarantine 5, Quarantine 6, Quarantine 7, Quarantine 8, Quarantine 9, Quarantine 10, Quarantine 11, Quarantine 12, Quarantining Invertebrates, 


Cryptocaryon and other protozoan parasites are hard to "make out" on light colored fishes.

Ich, copper and DT    7/24/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper.
<... a very poor idea>
What do you think? Would you advise this?
<No and no>
The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand.
<... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS>
There would be no inverts or LR at all.
<So?>
I plan to treat using Cupramine.
<A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here>
How long should I treat the tank?
<I wouldn't... you'll find that you are unable to "keep" a therapeutic dose of copper in such a setting... too quickly adsorbed...>
Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks.
Thank you for any help you can provide.
-Peter
<Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/24/08
Hello,
<Peter>
Thank you for the quick reply.
<Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here>
So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult?
<Adsorbed>
Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary?
<No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work>
Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks.
<... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...>
I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper.
Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM.
-Peter
<I would... and quickly. BobF>

Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate   7/22/08
To the Crew at WWM:
<Gene>
For many years you've helped fellow hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight I've been having for YEARS against ich.
<Please do>
Before I begin I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place (mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me, especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for about a week
<A very good practice>
and then begin hyposalinity therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or so.
Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system. In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT.
<Good spiel>
As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4 - 6 weeks.
Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55 gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG 1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a different route.
The following is what I did next.
On 5/19 I began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose. This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28 and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5.
On July 8th. all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July 22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!!
At this point I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change. (Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms).
The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor crabs.
Gene
<Thank you for sharing your information and passion Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner>

Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite... Commercial Crypt remedies, prevention  - 07/19/08
Hello, I was wondering if anyone on the team has had any good experience with giving a marine fish with crypt a freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as copper treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)?
<Some folks report success with such... perhaps their trials involve fishes with only superficial infestations... maybe these are principally only symptomatic...>
I'm more of a Cupramine guy myself (in a separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would like me to use freshwater baths exclusively in the main display / selling tanks which also house invertebrate life.
<Mmm... I strongly suggest that they, you do a bit of further considering here... I would do FW baths on arrival (pH adjusted, with formalin if a commercial setting)... and even better to best, keep all incoming fish livestock quarantined for a few weeks before showing, offering it to the public... I would NOT mix fish and invertebrate livestock in a wholesale or retail setting... period>
No option for separate treatment in a different tank. So while not my favorite option it will probably still give results and just wanted to fine tune it with some input. If you could tell me your frequency of the bath, duration of the bath you find effective.
<Won't be... like the idea of invading countries, murdering their citizens to "make people free", this idea is contrary to reality. How to put this another way... it won't work>
And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water change, the frequency and percentage of water changed. If you use any other methods with it such as melafix
<... API should be sued back to the stone ages for this and other faux products and their promotion. Really. Have stated this often and loudly enough. This product is garbage>
for bacterial infections of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies / shrimp to lending a helping hand, or anything else which might contribute to a recovery.
<All this is gone over and over on WWM>
I was considering fw bath repeated daily for 14 days,
<... no... too much time, trouble, and stress on the fish livestock. Ridiculous>
7 min duration, gravel vacuuming bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every fourth day or so, melafix dosed daily,
<Please...>
few cleaning shrimp there for luck.
<Don't rely on luck...>
Considering use of a U.V. sterilizer instead of melafix, but not likely. Trading out treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of the parasites free swimming stage. experience and suggestions appreciated, and thank you for your time, Jonathan
<Thank you for sharing Jonathan. A note to browsers through time... this is actually an indicative case, window into the thinking, operation of the trade... A reminder that many folks, though honest, of good intent, don't really know much re the science of actual husbandry of ornamental aquatics. Bob Fenner>

Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Crypt  07/20/2008
Again my hand is forced by my employer's policy, ie p*tco.
<Mmm, do know that I worked at corp... as a consultant/buyer for this co. 91-94... to bring in/make sense of aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal>
I don't agree with the policy and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated quarantine / treatment systems.
<I... empathize>
Either you quit / walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be. There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper>
<Yes>
The fish has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank. One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath / gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank", "I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos.
<... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy. Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems>
The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its duration. How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10 gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater.
<It/this can be done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the underlying principles>
I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more appropriate?
<Yes>
As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have done those,
<Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust>
and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this problem. But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that week, and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were given proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it.
The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that can be recovered. Not that I lack the knowledge to do so.
Sorry to go on,
No one on the crew has any recommendations for this compromised procedure? Frequency/duration of bath, frequency, percentage of gravel vacuum water change?
<Five-seven minutes... daily, all the gravel vacuumed>
I think 'ridiculous' was what I first thought about doing this as an alternative to a more proven technique.
<Just... not something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)... as a likely procedure that will be successful for all... too much work, too stressful, too likely to not work>
cheers,
hand cuffed employee
<Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob Fenner>

Chain Stores 7/21/08
Bob,
<Tom>
Read this, wanted to give some input.
""Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Crypt 07/20/2008
Again my hand is forced by my employer's policy, ie p*tco.
<Mmm, do know that I worked at corp..... as a consultant/buyer for this co.
91-94... to bring in/make sense of aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal>
I don't agree with the policy and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated quarantine / treatment systems.
<I... empathize>
Either you quit / walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be. There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper>
<Yes>
The fish has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank. One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath / gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank", "I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos.
<... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet
with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy. Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems>
The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its duration.
How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10 gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater.
<It/this can be done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the underlying principles>
I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more appropriate?
<Yes>
As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have done those,
<Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust>
and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this problem.
But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that week, and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were given proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it.
The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that can be recovered.
Not that I lack the knowledge to do so.
Sorry to go on,
No one on the crew has any recommendations for this compromised procedure?
Frequency/duration of bath, frequency, percentage of gravel vacuum water change?
<Five-seven minutes... daily, all the gravel vacuumed>
I think 'ridiculous' was what I first thought about doing this as an alternative to a more proven technique.
<Just... not something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)... as
a likely procedure that will be successful for all... too much work, too stressful, too likely to not work>
cheers,
hand cuffed employee
<Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob Fenner>""
 We've got these stores here, in the Houston area.
<Ah, yes... I know. I spent some time there, doing physical inventories... in the early nineties, for PetCo, when I worked for them as a consultant/buyer. A very nice town, folks>
In fact, I bought my Passer Angel from them some time ago, in ignorant times, and as I look back I am pretty sure my crypt issues may have started with this fish. Thank goodness all is well now and the Passer thrives. This store does offer a saltwater market at locales where small private stores might not have a market to survive (small towns, etc), so I think they're a good thing to some extent. but I find their methods and livestock care techniques quite lacking.
<Too often the case...>
I feel it's their responsibility to their customers and the livestock to provide a better product. By that I mean service quality and education. I tell people who are interested in marine fish that its easy. if done correctly and you follow guidelines. One
example at this store that I find bad is keeping LR and inverts in the same systems as their fish, making their fish 'untreatable' in reality.
All of this, I would think, is easily remedied if the company would decide to do it.
<And more pre-eminently, cared and "knew" what to do...>
And I would think it is certainly in the best interest of their customers and our hobby in the big picture of things. Think of it; surely the large majority of people who are exposed to marine aquaria begin their adventures in a store like this. They always carry Nemos and Dorys and yellow tangs. And often, I'm sure, their intentions are good, asking the clerk about marine tanks, and what equipment they need, what are the requirements for care, etc. Can you imagine the responses they get? Just by looking over the accessories carried on the shelves, I can tell you they are probably providing the wrong answers.
<Happens... so... of course (per moi) the question: "What do we do to make this better?">
One of the branch stores here, the one I purchased my angel from in fact, has well intentioned and intelligent employees.
<Ah, good>
All they lack, I would guess, is a bit of education and the resources necessary to do their job.
Here we have a large number of readers who I'm sure have similar concerns of the writer of the email below. Perhaps he can provide us with the most effective contact information necessary to express our concerns. I'm sure that there are many of us who would take time to send an email, I certainly would.
Just some thoughts.
Thomas
<Thank you Tom. BobF>

Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Benjamin's input
Ich Treatment - 7/22/08
Hello,
<Hello there!>
I was wondering if anyone on the team has had any good experience with giving a marine fish with crypt a freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as copper treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)?
<mm...can work, but very labor intensive>
I'm more of a Cupramine guy myself (in a separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would like me to use freshwater baths exclusively in the main display / selling tanks which also house invertebrate life. No option for separate treatment in a different tank.
<Not optimal...kudos to your employer for desiring to treat, but it sounds like conventional restraints still apply.>
So while not my favorite option it will probably still give results and just wanted to fine tune it with some input. If you could tell me your frequency of the bath, duration of the bath you find effective. And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water change, the frequency and percentage of water changed.
<I would go with a pH adjusted freshwater bath for as long as the fish can stand it the first time (thrashes, breathes very heavily, etc) , and then for 5-10 minutes a dip after that.>
If you use any other methods with it such as melafix
<Bunk product, save your money>
for bacterial infections of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies / shrimp to lending a helping hand, or anything else which might contribute to a recovery.
<Perhaps a bit of Methylene blue chloride in the dip>
I was considering Fw bath repeated daily for 14 days, 7 min duration,
<I'd shoot for twice daily, if the fish can stomach it. Keep in mind this will be VERY stressful as the sole method of treating fish...>
gravel vacuuming bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every fourth day or so,
<Do this daily>
melafix dosed daily,
<Skip it, worthless>
few cleaning shrimp there for luck. Considering use of a U.V. sterilizer instead of melafix, but not likely.
<Much better choice...UV>
Trading out treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of the parasites free swimming stage.
<Secondary infections unlikely with crypt., melafix would do nothing in any case. You'll need all the help you can get eliminating free-swimming and bottom-dwelling stages.>
experience and suggestions appreciated,  and thank you for your time, Jonathan
<Do keep in mind all fish will need to be treated...and I still am doubtful as to effectiveness as more that aesthetic triage>
<Benjamin>

Need an opinion on ick treatment   7/5/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
I need your much appreciated advise regarding ich treatments. My tank is a 300 gallon sps setup with two tuff stuff 140 gallon tubs connected by two 3" bulkheads;
<Nice>
one currently is holding the skimmer and the other is used as a refugium with Chaetomorpha algae. My display is over 2 years old with a 4" layer of fine sand and about two hundred and fifty pounds of live rock. My ammonia is undetectable; so is the nitrite. My nitrates are about 2.5 and pH ranges from 8.2 - 8.4. Alkalinity is at 9dKH and calcium is around 450.
<Very good>
I always tried to maintain salinity at 1.025, however after buying a refractometer three days ago I realized my water was actually at 1.030; so I lowered it to 1.025 within three days.
<Mmm, I would take a week or longer here>
I currently have the following fish:
- 4" Majestic angelfish
- 4" Coral Beauty
- 2" ocellaris clown
- Two 3" black saddleback clowns
- 3.5" melanurus wrasse
- 3" Lawnmower blenny
- 3.5 yellow eye Kole tang
- 4" Pacific Blue tang
- 4.5" Powder blue tang
By now I'm pretty sure you know where this is going. I got the powder blue about two months ago. I quarantine it for a month without any signs of ick, so I placed it in the display. None of my fish bothered it, he became the dominant fish right away. About two weeks after being placed in the display, I noticed he had what seemed to be ick. I obviously somehow introduced the parasite, so I was wondering what could have triggered this.
<Perhaps the rapid change in SPG>
Does the tank have a high Bio-load,
<No>
could the high salinity I had previously mentioned started this
<Yes>
or could it be the current heat wave which elevated the temperature to 84 degrees
<Could be a co-factor>
the one day I forgot to turn on the cooling fans. My display temperature is always at 80 to 82 degrees. I also had to remove a 5" blue throat trigger which the powder blue could not stand and chased a few times a day; I wonder if that stressed him enough.
<This too>
I waited a few days before taking further and appropriate action. At this point the powder blue is full of ick but eats well. My yellow eye which only grazes of the rocks and the glass is now also full.
<This is something else>
The Pacific blue gets the spots to a lesser degree on and off. The rest of the fish don't show any signs, however based on your web page I know all the fish need to be treated.
<Yes...>
After doing my research I need to remove all the fish and leave the tank fallow 8-10 weeks. I need your advise on how to properly remove the ick from the fish. My plan was to begin with the three tangs, giving them a formalin bath as per bottle recommendations, then placed in a 60 gallon quarantine.
<Good>
My question is whether I should add Cupramine to the 60 gallon quarantine tank at .35ppm
<At the highest concentration...)
for two weeks
<Is one approach... you might want to try Chloroquine phosphate... IF the infestation is not too "deep", hyperinfective, this anti-malarial may destroy it (rather than simply arrest the present development)>
then moved to a 150 gallon holding tank while I place the rest of the fish through the same procedure and while the display goes fallow. However I'm scared the copper might damaged the intestinal bacteria the tangs have, or if I might be doing more damage to my angels.
<A distinct possibility>
The other plan was to not use the copper and give the fish a formalin bath every other day for two weeks, then skip the 60 gallon with copper and place them into the 150 with newly mixed water.
<Another approach... but likely more harmful than chelated copper exposure at the lower effective range (.0.15 ppm free Cu++)>
My last idea was just one Formalin bath then placed in the 150 for observation. I believe I read many are not big fans of Formalin, as it is toxic, however I figured the copper might do more damage but I could be wrong.
<Is very toxic... but effective for "surface" complaints>
Please help me figure out which would be my best option. Also how would you recommend keeping the ammonia and nitrite down on either the 60 or 150 spare tanks with new saltwater.
<Changing it...>
Is Amquel or any ammonia sponge good or are water changes the only option.
<Mmm, the latter may be worth trying... most water conditioners remove copper...>
The sponges I had for biological filters in the sump most likely have ick so I don't want to introduce it to the quarantine.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
<I empathize with your situation... Would try the Chloroquine on the Tangs, Angels... and see if this does the job, along with the one-time/moving formalin/aerated bath. Bob Fenner>

Marine Ich  7/3/08
Hello Bob,
<Mike>
I’m into the first 24 hours of fighting the dreaded “crypt” in my 10 gal QT using Seachem Cupramine and a lower specific gravity of 0.011.
<This is low>
I initially vacuumed out all gravel
<... there should be no gravel present>
to minimize Tomonts and I lowered the salinity to help with stress to see if “Sonic”, a 2” Porcupine Puffer, would fight it off on his own. The spots, however, continued to increase and he continued to decline. I finally added somewhere between 0.2 and 0.5 ppm copper sulfate last night (it’s hard to accurately determine the concentration with a color comparison test kit, especially one using blue hues since most males are somewhat color blind to blue to begin with).
<... Mmm... need to be more accurate, consistently....>
This morning, 8 hours after adding the copper, Sonic was swimming around a bit with the rising of the sun. It’s now a little over 24 hours after adding copper and he’s “begging” for food as he usually does. I gave him some dried krill soaked in Kent Zoe Marine hoping to boost his energy and immunity.
<Good>
The Puffer that was barely able to move off the tank bottom is now voraciously eating again! Although he still has numerous spots, we seem to be wining the war - many thanks to you for your advise.
<Advice>
So off to my questions;
1) Is the lower specific gravity a benefit?
<... can be>
2) At what point should I begin to raise the SG and to what value? Again, it’s a fish only quarantine tank.
<... please read... WWM re... Hyposalinity...>
3) Are the white spots that we see actually the Trophonts; or the host’s response to the Trophonts; or a combination?
<The reaction. Crypt is too small to see...>
Thanks,
Mike

Treating Ick on a Volitans Lion  6/27/08
Hello Crew and thanks in advance for your help,
<Welcome in time>
I recently (yesterday) got back from a trip to Key West for my cousins wedding.
<Ah, the Conch Republic... what a place!>
(Poor me right! ; )) While I was gone I was lucky enough to have a friend watching my tanks for me who is a fellow hobbyist on a temporary financially imposed hiatus.
<I do like this desc.... am going to apply it in talking about myself>
Unfortunately my Volitans Lion came down with a nasty case of Ick which I have to admit is probably my fault (stress). Fatty (my lion) was the first of my fish to be transferred to my "new" 75 gallon display. The tank was cycled for 5 weeks with pre established live sand (3-4" deep) from my and my friend (the one watching my tanks) old tanks that were still running that the time. After the tests all came out with zero readings I introduced 20 lbs of "pre-cured" live rock (bought from 2 different trusted LFS) along with 5 lbs of LR from my already established 25 gal., and left tank to cycle/cure for another three weeks (tested again). Equipment is one Fluval 4 plus (seeded filter media), 2 Koralia 1 power heads, and a 200W Jager heater. At this point I added roughly 20 small mixed snails (Cerith, turbo, Nassarius) and 4 or 5 blue legged hermits
<Your Lion may swallow any/all of these in time...>
along with Fatty (about two weeks before vacation to Key West). During the transfer Fatty scraped him self on some LR while trying to flee the specimen container, but I dosed some vitamin C and he looked fine in a few days. Sorry if I'm being long winded here, but here the question/advice needed part. I have a five gallon bucket, 10 gallon tank, and another 25 gallon tank to use for the FW dip, chemical med dip/HT, and QT while I let the 75 gallon go fallow for the next couple months. My plan of attack was to do a FW dip (adjusted PH, Alk, etc.)
in the bucket, then transfer fatty to the 10 gallon hospital tank for a medication period, and then finally to the 25 gallon QT for the remainder of the fallow period. For the medication I have some Quick Cure already from a FW Ick out break a few years ago, but I'm hesitant to use it given that lions are scale-less fish (at least I think they are)
<Do have fine scales, but you are right in that they are more than usually sensitive to copper and formalin>
and it's a harsher medication. From my research I see that Formalin 3 is highly suggested in the FAQ's, so do you think I should spend the extra $ and get it (or something else) instead of the Quick Cure I already have? Thank you again for your help, and continued dedication to this amazing hobby.
Thanks,
Darren Cothern
<I would first try just adding the Quick Cure (it has formalin as well) to the dip/bath solution... at appropriate strength (see WWM re)... enroute to transferring the Lion, vacuuming the 25 tank bottom daily (to remove tomites)... to see if this "does it"... Should be able to see w/in a week... Bob Fenner>

Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please   6/19/08
Hi Bob
<Jon>
I’ve been reading your site for a while now but have fortunately never had the need to email you before. It’s an amazing site and is always the first place I come to and recommend to others. I’ve been keeping fish for about 20 years now (wow, is it that long? Yikes!)
<Yes, time whips>
and in the last 5 years turned my hand to marines. I am completely devoted to my aquatic friends and spend many hours a day making sure they’ve got the best environment they can with the funds I have to spend.
<Good for us>
I started with a Jewel Rio 240 and worked my way up to a 500litre set up with sump filter and refugium. I always build my own stands, hoods, cooling & filter systems as I find tailor made set-ups always best, not to mention fun and a challenge to build.
<Great>
In five years of keeping Marines the one and only thing I’ve had die is a turbo-snail and that appeared more to do with the Copperband Butterflyfish I had at the time (not dead, returned to my LFS). I’ve fragged many corals for friends and shops as I see this as a way of spreading the love and preventing wild collection of species (I used to breed Iguana’s and water dragons for the same reason).
<Ah, good>
I won’t go into the corals I have as there are simply too many to list but the only fish I have are as follows:
1 x Marine Betta - Calloplesiops altivelis
2 x Yellowtail Blue Damselfish - Chrysiptera parasema
1 x Bullseye Jawfish - Opistognathus scops
1 x Foxface - Siganus vulpinus
1 x Watchman goby – still trying to identify the exact species but I’ve had him for 6 months – will send you a pic if you want J
1 x Mandarin fish - Pterosynchriopus splendidus
1 x Rainford's Hover Goby - Amblygobius rainfordi
1 x Radiant Wrasse - Halichoeres iridis
I’ve had all these fish for at least 6 months, the Marine Betta for 5 years (he hand feeds and will allow me to touch him – he’s amazing!)
<Neat!>
2 weeks ago I moved the main tank in with my girlfriend so the whole thing was taken apart, moved and reassembled in 16 hours and everything, to my complete and utter relief, was perfect – except the 9inch Deresa clam losing his grip on the rock but he’s firmly attached again now J
In the meantime and after much deliberation I decided to go for a tang, something I’ve always wanted to try to keep but have been reluctant due to them being particularly susceptible to Marine Ich. I decided to go for a Gold rim tang - Acanthurus glaucopareius as I think it’s one of the nicest I’ve seen and found one in one of the shops in London. I bought him before the move and acclimatised him in a 2ft QT for 2 weeks
<Mmm, not long enough...>
and he was fine, nothing to report except a little stressed movement and hiding whenever I approached. Feeding well though on frozen mysis, marine mix, green and purple algae sheets and live brine shrimp.
So, once the tank was rebuilt after the move I added him to my tank thinking that with the new rock structure all the fish would be in a “New” surrounding and less likely to fight. After a little tussle with the Betta over who slept where (in which the Betta got his tail ripped – it healed in under 2 days though which was quite surprising) everything was fine.
He’s been in the tank for 2 weeks and last night I noticed a few white spots on his pectoral fins. I have a VERY large hand held magnifier so watched him through this and it certainly looked like whitespot and not air bubbles as mentioned in one of your threads. Unfortunately that was at about 11pm and I didn’t have time to sort it out and this morning the Foxface also has the ich *sigh*. Where did I go wrong?
<The foreshortened quarantine... perhaps lack of a useful dip/bath (with formalin, aeration), the selection of species...>
If you would be so kind as to give your thoughts on what I plan to do next I’d be most grateful. I’ve read all the threads on WWM and a few other sites so hopefully this will meet with your approval (It’s just that I’m really scared about losing what has been my own little place of sanity over the last 5 years so I want to run it past someone with oodles more knowledge and experience than myself)
<Mmm, I suspect that judging by your apparent intelligence here, involvement in the hobby, and recent review, you could likely write the gist of what I'm about to...>
INTERIM MEASURES (until I can get a hospital tank set up)
Step 1 – Freshwater dip in same pH and temp water for Tang, Foxface (and Marine Betta just to be safe).
<Mmm... if you're going the treatment route (see below), I'd lower the spg a few thousandths and add formalin per spec., and move all through the dip to new/separate water/system circumstances>
Step 2 – buy another Cleaner Shrimp - Lysmata amboinensis (I have one already but 2 is better than one I guess). I would buy a Neon Goby - Elacatinus oceanops, but I’m not sure if the Betta would eat him?
<Odds are that it would not>
He’s left the Hover Goby alone and he’s a similar size? What would you recommend?
<Both the shrimp and the goby>
LONG TERM MEASURES
Step 3 – set up 3ft Hospital tank with mechanical and biological filters using some media removed from main sump filtration system.
Q. Having never needed to set up a hospital tank before will a 3ft tank be big enough for these three fish?
<Yes>
And all fish together if necessary?
<Yes>
Q. Will I need lighting in this tank?
<No>
If they are in the ambient light near a window and also near the main tank they are likely to be less stressed due to less light, correct?
<Not much... comparatively>
Step 4 – treat with a copper based treatment for 2 weeks and then observe for 2 weeks.
<Chelated, yes>
Step 5 – return fish to the tank after a further two weeks if no further infestation develops? (6 weeks in total)
Q. Do I regularly feed them during this time or will excess food cause problems?
<Feed, with water quality testing, changing out as necessary>
Your sagely advice would be most appreciated and I’d like to thank you in advance for any help you can give.
(You can post this if you feel it would help anyone but to be honest I feel rather ashamed that this has happened so if possible could you just reply instead of posting it on the website?)
<There is no shame... and know that by our admissions we earnestly help others>
Many thanks
Jon
<Now, my overall stmt. re your situation. You are faced with a crossroads... one that I can/will not be able to advise either way re. You can/could go ahead with the course of treatment you propose above... Or... elect to wait, see if this infestation will go (likely) sub-clinical... That is, you could hope for a latent situation in which your fishes will not be much-parasitized... nor have to undergo the rigours of toxic and stressful treatment. This is no easy choice... and yes, specific pathogen free circumstances are much more preferred. What will you do? Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please   6/20/08
HI Bob
<Jonathan>
Thanks so much for your quick response.
<Welcome>
At first I saw that the email bounced back from your hotmail so I've sent it onto the "Crew" email address again so please ignore my 2nd email.
<Have deleted>
I got home last night and the tang and Foxface appeared active and healthy, and the infestation had not increased.
<Mmm, may be simply cycling, but... my stmt. re "choices" stands>
My poor Marine Betta is suffering though. He has some ich on his pectorals and head but on the surface it doesn't look as bad as the tang and Foxface. However, I think he's affected more due to the size of his scales as it would appear the infestation it happening under his scales?
<Perhaps>
Is this possible or could the stress have brought on something else?
<Doubtful>
Around his head his scales are erect and looked similar to dropsy in tropical species, but was localised to the head area with some patches of discolouration on his flanks. He was also breathing heavily and his mouth parts were extended due to infection in the crease above his lip.
<You have a sharp eye>
So, I decided to perform a freshwater dip on the tang, Foxface and Betta (without formalin as I had none at the time). Many parasites on the Tang were removed and once returned to the tank
<... which is infested>
he returned to normal behaviour in a matter of minutes and appeared to have small empty dots in his grey colouring where the parasites previously were. The Betta was a different story. Some parasites visible on the outer scales appear to have gone, although his lip remained extended, scales erect and eyes were somewhat cloudy - possibly due to excess slime production after the dip?
<Maybe>
However, he remained on the bottom in the Caulerpa staying quite still and breathing heavily. He did react to me peering at him by expanding all his fins to display though so fingers crossed.
I couldn't catch the Foxface as it's unbelievably good at hiding and the added colour changing camouflage made it almost impossible to find once it knew what I was up to. It also seems to have learned a trick from by wrasse in that he buries himself in the sand?
<Mmm, no>
Wasn't aware it would/could/knew how to do this?
<Me neither... Lo dudo>
I will go to the LFS tonight and purchase (or perhaps borrow since I have a great relationship with them) both another shrimp and a goby. I will also purchase a 3ft tank, formalin and chelated copper for the next stage if it goes that far.
I'd rather avoid the use of chemicals if I can but I really don't want to lose the Betta so I'll see how he's doing tonight and make the decision then. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks for your advice, it's much appreciated :) Once everything's looking nice again I'll send photos.
Thanks
Jon
<Stay balanced and informed Jon... BobF>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please - 6/20/08
Thanks again bob. I finish work in 2 hours, 5 min.s and 3 sec.s so I should have a hospital tank set up in less than 4 hours time :)
<Precise!>
I will then begin the task of dismantling the tank rockwork to catch the fish and separate them from the infestation.
Many thanks
J
<Welcome. B>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/25/08
Hi Bob
<J>
I've set up a hospital tank as discussed but it appears that after the freshwater dip the Marine Betta recovered although the Tang still has mild infestation post dip. The fox face has cleared up of his own accord - possibly due to the additional cleaner and gobies.
<Perhaps>
I'm now weighing up the pros and cons regarding treating the fish and letting the tank go fallow vs. using no chemicals and seeing if it doesn't reoccur (please oh please don't reoccur!).
<Will do so... IF challenges are presented... or a hyperinfective state is introduced with new livestock. Best to be very careful re quarantining, acclimating all new>
As I said, I've bought an additional cleaner shrimp and two cleaner gobies to help. I will be keeping a close eye on the inhabitants over the coming weeks / months to see if the infestation reoccurs.
I do have one further question though, which looking back through my emails I don't think I asked? I'm aware that stress can bring on / aid the speed of infestation of Ich in fish. Is it possible that the infestation could have been accelerated by a change in diet for the tang?
<Mmm, yes>
I use many methods to target feed certain inhabitants of the tank, especially the mandarin since he competes for food with the hover goby and watchman goby to come extent. Do you think if I prevented the tang from consuming large quantities of mysis / other meaty foods this may help?
<Mmmm, doubtful>
A loose theory perhaps but I know that with Iguana's (that are primarily herbivores) if you feed them too much meat based food it can affect their digestion process and cause all manner of problems - plus they're less likely to let go once they bite and draw blood.
Many thanks
J
<Worth trying though. Reciprocally, providing nutritionally complete, easily recognized/palatable (i.e. accepted) foods DOES provide a good deal of stress-avoidance... Cultured macro-algae, dried... is best here. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/25/08
Thanks Bob
<Jon>
Will let you know how I get on.
I've attached a picture of the tank before the move for you and of my
clams :)
Cheers
J
<Ahh, very nice. BobF>

 

SW... crypt, stkg... (aquarist needs to start reading) -06/19/08
hello
My name is Katrina I have had my saltwater tank for a year now. It was set up in a 10 gallon to start off then a 30 gallon I used the old filter, mollies and a damsel to cycle the tanks
<Bad idea>
now I am into a 75 gallon. I do my water changes every 3rd month and I change my filters also ph is at 8.0 no nitrates or nitrites. I have a blue tang ,yellow tang, 2 Ocellaris clowns 2 damsels, engineer goby ,and my mandarin goby.
<All in a 75g? geez>
Ich has broke out in my tank I have a QT tank that is 30 gallon and I am treating it with Copper everyone seems fine but my mandarin he is very sluggish his eyes are sinking into his head and his eyes are clouded
<Likely starving to death, perhaps among other problems.>
What can I do for him he wont eat just anything he is very picky.
<Um, yeah... did you bother to research this fish before you bought it? Please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mandarins.htm>
I thought about giving him a swim in the copper tank then putting him back in the big tank so he can eat but I am afraid of ich breaking out on him only.
<Unlikely... these are slimy fish, relatively resistant to external parasites. Again, lack of diligence/research will often kill your animals faster than anything else.>
he will be the only fish in the infested tank. I am at a loss what to do for him.
<About the only way to *try* and save him now might be to feed him live copepods you can buy from Adelaide Rhodes, http://www.oceanpods.com/ However, good luck trying to target feed him. It's likely the other fish will get to the pods first unless you isolate him. And it might already be too late.>
Please help I am running out of time.
Thank you Katrina
<Best,
Sara M.>

SW Ich trouble, need help please!    6/19/08
Hello,
I have found your site very useful and I tried following it but I ran into a problem.
<Following?>
I have a 55gal fish tank (planning an upgrade to 75gal soon) with a small 2-3inch dog face puffer,
<Needs more room than either of these>
a 2-3 inch flame angel, a 3 inch bullet goby, a 1/2 inch yellow clown goby, and a 2-3 inch flame goby. I also had a 2-3inch falcula butterfly fish in there too but he just died yesterday. I bought him three weeks ago with the flame goby. My tank properties are as follows: 0 Nitrite, a lot less than 20 for my nitrate (dip strip not exact), ph 8.3, and salinity is 20ppt.
<Too low>
I have an ammonia alert meter
<I don't trust these>
as well and its always on "safe." I measure these twice a week and keep the tank clean at all times. I vacuum the bottom every other day
<... too frequently>
with a sludge extractor and I only use DI water in the tank. I add Nitromax
<Not reliable...>
every two to three weeks. I have a three way canister filter with a UV light system attached and a Berlin hang on protein skimmer. The heat is constant at 79 degrees F. I have about 30lbs of live rock with algae on it,
<Good>
a few tiny hermit crabs, and live sand for sediment. No corals or plants. I feed the fish daily. I feed them mysis, blood worms, (they refuse reef food) and additionally I give the puffer 4-5 pea size pieces of squid, mussels, crab, and shrimp meat from the grocery store. I soak all of the food in Selcon before serving it. I have had most of the fish for 6 months.
All seemed to be fine until the butterfly angel wasn't hungry anymore for two days and then on the third day developed labored breathing and died.
<No... quarantine... entry "strategy"...>
I noticed what looked like sand
<Oh oh>
in his fins a few days ago and I didn't think anything of it until he was really sick (my puffer always has sand stuck to him so I figured it was real sand). The same day it died, I investigated the other fish. The puffer developed the same sand like marks on his fins, which weren't sand. So I realized it was an ich outbreak. He has been acting normal, excited to see me, eating well, swimming well, not scratching, and his eyes are clear. After further investigation, I noticed the bullet goby has about two tiny crystal spots on his back fin and the flame angel has about five tiny spots through his tail and body. The flame goby and the yellow clown goby look clear.
This morning I took out the carbon pad in the filter and added three packets of Super Ick Cure
<No! Not to your main tank...>
(3.6 mg Malachite Green and 60 mg Nitrofurazone per packet) as soon as the pet store opened at 9am. That's half the recommended dose since the puffer has soft scales.
<...>
So my problem was that the outbreak looked worse this evening than it was this morning when I put the medicine in. The puffer has about 5 spots on each side fin and the tail fin, as well as about 5-10 spots on his body. They are hard to see since his fins are always white and his body is white unless stressed. I called the LFS and read your site, both advising a fresh water bath.
<... along with being moved to new setting>
I spent about an hour preparing the solution just right. After I finally caught my puffer, he blew up as big as he could, I quickly put him in the bath for about 5 seconds but when I realized he was too upset and would not deflate, I quickly put him back in the tank. He floated upside down for about 10 seconds before deflating and went in his rock cave all upset and sulking- labored breathing and his coloring was a little dark. His stomach looked a little spiny from being inflated so far.
That is my problem. I was too spooked to continue and the other fish weren't cooperating so I left them alone. I am worried that I may have gotten the puffer too stressed out and I may have compromised his immune system further.
<Well-stated>
He seems fine now though, he's begging for food. I don't think I can do it to him again. I am wondering if the medicine alone will help.
<Not what you have done, no... Neither Malachite nor Furan cpd.s will effectively cure Crypt... esp. at half dosage, and with being chemically complexed in a set-up with rock, gravel... You should have read a bit more... quarantined/dipped-bathed all new fish livestock...>
I read to turn the light off and I think I'll do it tonight. The directions for the medicine say to add another dose in 48hours and then 2 days later add the carbon back into the filter and do a 25% water change.
<... My friend... this treatment is worth than worthless here. Please... don't "follow" my stmt.s/advice if you will, but READ references rather than listen to whomever this was at the LFS...>
The LFS told me that if I don't see a change by tomorrow the medicine is probably not going to work
<...>
and not to try raising the temperature because the puffer won't tolerate it.
<?>
I read I can't use copper because it is harmful to the puffer since he is so soft. I also read to continue the medicine dosages for two weeks to ensure the parasite is gone, but how do I know that I won't poison the fish?
<... read re these materials... at least on WWM>
The puffer library says to quarantine all of the fish separately for four weeks, is that really necessary?
<It is a very good idea>
It also eludes that success rates are low. I am really worried and I want everything to be okay with my fish. What should I do?
<Read, soon... formulate a plan... get/set-up/use a "treatment tank/set-up"... bare... use effective treatment... these are again gone over and over on WWM>
Please help, I love my fish and I can't bear to part with them. The diver from the LFS even brought back the puffer from Christmas Island especially for me on special request. I attached a picture I just took of my puffer along side my flame goby and flame angel for you.
Thanks a lot for any assistance,
Lesley
<I do wish we could start "way back" and make sure you had useful knowledge, effective procedures for excluding these sorts of problems. You have a great challenge ahead of you... I would get the new trtmt. sys. going stat., and read re possibly using Quinine and hyposalinity... Bob Fenner>

Re: SW Ich trouble, need help please!   6/19/08
Bob,
I'm sorry to have seen that my request for help was so cumbersome to you.
<?>
I have read your website extensively but before I go to extremes I wanted individual advice.
<Your situation is not unusual... bad advice from a LFS, a lack of understanding in general. And there is no specific way to counsel you other than what I have proffered... at least that is known by me>
You actually make me feel worse about the situation by ridiculing me.
<... please>
I read the QT and hospital sections.
<Then why did you dump Malachite and an antimicrobial in your main system? This makes no sense>
I needed to know if this was appropriate for my fish as all are sick yet they are all so different. Some have soft scales,
some hard and some tolerate temperature and salinity changes while some may not, just as copper is appropriate for one but not the other. Also, if I did a quarantine, your site is not specific on what water to use, contaminated water from the main tank, from store, or brand new?
<New is best if another (used) source can't be trusted>
All details I wanted to know before moving around fish. Most puffer facts on your site are four years old and links to reference articles are broken as well.
<Please tell me where these are so they can be fixed>
Maybe there have been new medicines/methods since then, that's why I asked. I requested help because I am not an expert but I am trying. I found your response to offer no specific advice and to be quite discouraging. I apologize for disturbing WWM with my lack of expertise. In the mean time I have taken other measures.
Thanks.
<... Good luck to you, your livestock. RMF>

(And later:) Actually another user on your site said they used Super Ich Cure and the counselor had no objections and actually said to continue the use. My lack of understanding comes from multiple sources who all have different opinions and products labels. There is no fish care Bible available, every hobbyist has different advice, all I can do is live and learn. Thanks again, I do not require a response.
<<I would make an input here re the reality of there being conflicting viewpoints on several topics, particularly disease treatment on WWM. Though there are others here who have personally kept more puffer than I, I want to state that it is S.O.P. in the trade to treat all Tetraodontiforms, including all puffer species with copper, chelated and not. There are many wholesale and retail operations... decades back to present who do so... Mine/ours inclusive. Copper is more irritating to some groups of fishes than others, but it is still the medicant of choice for external protozoan parasites. One must of course adhere to certain principles of testing, monitoring water quality... RMF>>

2nd time with ich, Marine treatment 6/4/08
Dear WWM crew,
<Hello>
Thank you so much for all your helpful advice.
<Welcome>
Two days ago I did a major cleanup of my gravel (vacuumed + 30% water change) in my 75 gal. tank and yesterday I noticed white spots on my yellow tang. : (
Let me back track a little. About 4 months ago I bought a vermicular angel fish and put him in my tank... yes... 2 days later he had ich.
<A lesson on QTing.>
Being new to this hobby (now it's been about 6 mths) I went running to my LFS, they quickly sold me a product Kent XP because it was "reef safe" and I had some live rock + sand and some shrimps, snails and hermit crabs.
<Are you referring to Kent RXP? If I remember correctly this is one of those pepper based products, which is not going to help your situation.>
I went home to use it but my angel died and my yellow tang now had some spots. I also have 5 blue/green chromis, 2 cardinals, one molly, one engineer goby and 1 oc clown. Sooo I used the product for 14 days, followed the instructions and to my surprise the ich was gone. Or so I thought...
<Doubtful...>
Which brings me to today. Since then I found your web site, wow. I love it. I am in the middle of transitioning my FOWLR to a reef tank, and last week a bought 20 lbs of live rock, which came from the display tank of the LFS, so I thought it would be safe to put it in my tank. Then my yellow tang got ich.
What do you think happened?
1- The live rock had ich so it was re-introduced?
<Reintroduced? No, was most likely still there, which is not to say the LR did not bring in reinforcement.>
2- The ich was in the tank all along and the cleaning of the sand stressed the yellow tang so he succumbed to the parasite?
<Cleaning and stress probably had little to do with it, the fish was most likely already well infected, perhaps the cleaning pushed it over the edge, but I would guess the fish was never ich free.>
Well, after the first incidence of ich, I bought a 10 gal. tank for QT. I've had it running for 2 mths now. When I saw the yellow tang, I took him out and put him in the QT. I was about to put him through hyposalinity when I read Bob's comments on hyposalinity and how it was not proven 100% effective.
<I kind of disagree with Bob a little bit on technicalities here, I do believe hypo can work if done very strictly, however I don't think it is realistic for the average hobbyist to maintain SG with the necessary accuracy to work in practice, so it is not a route I would generally recommend.>
Soooo, what shall I do? According to him, I should use copper.
<Copper is pretty tough on tang and clowns, and the goby may have trouble too, although it will work without question as long as it is maintained at therapeutic levels. The quinine family of drugs, or formalin will work also, but with their own drawbacks and issues. Take a look over WetWeb and see what you feel most comfortable with. Try starting here and WetWeb FAQs http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php >
So now the question is, should I treat all my fish with copper in the QT tank and let the DT remain fishless for 4 weeks?
<4 weeks is the bare minimum, does not leave a lot of 'wiggle' room, I would count on double that time.>
Are there too many fish for this 10 gal. tank?
<Assuming you still have all 10 fish, then yes by far. 29G tank are still fairly cheap and small, if you could go this route I think you have a much better chance at success.>
Also, my engineer goby is about 5 inches long and is always buried under the sand, will he be OK in this tank with a bare bottom?
<Lots of PVP pipes here should help.>
Please advice, I am going to my LFS and buy the copper so I can start today.
<I suggest taking a day to come up with a plan, your chances of success will increase greatly.>
Thank you once again for all your help. This is the 2nd time I get ich and I don't want this to happen once I get all my corals + other inverts in the DT. So I want to do things the right way.
Thank you,
Sincerely
Erika
<Read over the articles and FAQs, come up with a plan that you feel comfortable and able to execute, and proceed. Be prepared for large daily water changes, have aquarium "tool" dedicated to the QT only, and pick up some Bio-Spira if you can find it to give the bio-filter a jumpstart. Good luck.>
<Chris>

Crypt, Marine Treatment 6/4/08
Hi All!
<Hello>
I was hoping I would never have to write this email, but it seems that I have a crypt episode in my 75 gallon reef. My tank is 18 months old, and I found your site while it was cycling, so I was educated about and have employed quarantine procedures since my first fish. Alas, I moved my tank last month, and now I have Crypt. I am assuming that I stirred something up in the sandbed when moving the tank, and the fish may have had an outbreak a couple weeks ago, but I attributed it to everything being "silty" from the move.
<Uh oh.>
I have set up my hospital tank (29 gallon) but I fear I now the 29 gallon will be very crowded. I also have my 10 gallon QT tank that I can set up. After hours of reading, I am doubtful that my selection of fishes can tolerate copper (which I have ready, with a test kit).
<Copper is very effective, so having 2 tanks can be useful here, copper for those that handle it well, and another treatment in the other tank for those that do not.>
The fish showing signs are:
Magenta Pseudochromis
Neon Goby
and my pair of False Perculas
Other fish are: (not showing signs)
Lyretail Anthias
6 Blue-Green Chromis
and my Scooter Blenny
<I would treat all as those they are infect, as they most likely are, just not symptomatic.>
I believe that my Anthias is getting the spots too, but he takes advantage of the Cleaner Shrimp every morning and evening, so he never has spots for long.
<Studies of shrimp guts do not indicate they feed on the parasite, at least not directly, more likely picking at the wound around the infection site, but does seem to help control the infection.>
I am going to fallow the display 5-6 weeks, and I was going to treat everyone with copper in the hospital tank, but after reading, I have found that most of my livestock is sensitive to copper (I think I read- all but the Pseudochromis are)! So should I put him in the 10 gallon and treat only him with copper, and the rest in the 29 with hyposalinity?
<I would probably go with a uniform treatment here, too much work, chance of confusion for just treating a single fish. Check out here for details on several treatment options and see what you are most comfortable with http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php .>
My other thought was to put the Blenny in the 10 gallon with an established HOB refugium I have and monitor him for crypt, but not treat yet. The Blenny eats frozen Mysis, but I don't want him totally stressed but not being able to graze after plunking him on a bare bottom tank with PVC pipes. While leaving the rest in the 29 with hyposalinity.
<Possible, the dragonet is sort of a wild card here, fairly ich resistant so it is possible it is not at least a "carrier". Unfortunately to me there is no right or wrong answer here, both treatment and non-treatment carry their own risks.>
Thoughts, ideas, opinions? This is my first time dealing with this, and it seems there are so many options out there.
Thanks a bunch!!
-Esther
<As I was answering another similar query to this a few minutes ago I was thinking how easy it is to treat for Crypt if only the fish could handle it. Unfortunately that is where your issue is in my eyes, a question of balance between an effective cure and poisoning your livestock. Now if you are feeling especially motivated, and can get another 29 cheap the transfer method could work nicely for you, especially with the dragonets. See here for some details on that method http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm . Otherwise consider which other treatment methods suit you best.>
<Chris>
 

Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crypt... again  6/1/08
Bob,
Since we discussed this yesterday, help me with some logic. I found an ABT at a store yesterday, the fish had been there at least 4 weeks. I saw it at
this location a while back and remembered it, and since it was still there I decided to take a look at it. I purchased it, a 4" Specimen which looked
healthy and was eating well.
I took the fish home, acclimated it, and gave it a 4 minute FW bath, PH adjusted, prior to introducing it to the tank. It acclimated well and was
eating last night. This morning, it was covered in Ick.
<! There is very likely a resident population/infestation>
Now, from all that I have learned from here, I am making an assumption that the ick is NOT a result of introduction from this fish. My logic is that by
giving it a FW dip, it having no prior signs of ick, and by not introducing any water from the bag into my tank, there is no way that this much ick
could have been introduced and show up in 12 hours on the fish... Which means that it was present in the main system.
<Yes>
Now you may recall that ick was defeated some months ago using the Quinine Sulfate.
<Mmmm, this doesn't mean it was completely gone... the cysts could have survived the treatment>
Aside from some new live rock, there haven't been any introductions, and certainly nothing recently. Obviously, the new Tang, being weaker, stressed, susceptible so to speak, has ick... but no other fish (at this time) shows any cysts at all. Those consist of the Passer Angelfish, the Lunare Wrasse, Yellow Tang, and a Tomato Clown. But, despite all the care I've taken, I have this scourge in my system again.
<Expressed again... was always there>
Now, unfortunately, I had to go to work this morning (don't mention to my boss I'm more concerned about my fish than making calls...) so I was unable
to do anything right away, but hopefully I can get home early this afternoon to do something. The 20gallon QT tank, nor any tank of any manageable size,
is going to work as a hospital tank while the system goes fallow, so I'm faced with using the Quinine again.
<Mmm, maybe... I'd wait out this appearance and see if the current situation resolves (not solves permanently) itself>
I've got some live rock with fan worms, etc, that I might can fit in the 20gallon, and of course I can pull the snails as well. How long, after this first coating of ick, would you guess
a fish has to live?
<Perhaps years...>
Reason is: If the ick has been present all this time, will the other fish develop it now?
<Not likely... sometimes a hyper infection can/will develop... people, particularly in the West don't understand that such parasite-host relationships are not a matter of all or nothing... but a balance, ever-shifting...>
My guess is no, if they've been resistant all this time. If it's too late to save this ABT ($50 flush), is it better to take the time to formulate some other plan? My first choice is
to save this fish, of course.
Thomas Roach
<If it were me, mine, I'd be patient... wait for now... boost the fish, systems immune system... with probiotics, garlic, what have you. Don't panic (shades of Doug Adams). Bob Fenner>

Re: Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Tang, Crypt  – 06/02/08
Hey, thanks again, Mr. Fenner.
I'll give you an update... Friday AM was the day the ABT was completely covered in 100's of the cysts... Getting home Friday afternoon, I guess it had cycled because they were off him. I'm feeding them a tad more now to make sure they get energy/nutrition to fight it, soaking the food in garlic and not adding medications. Saturday all day, no cysts were present on any fish, including the ABT. Today, Sunday morning, there are some cysts present on the ABT, but not hundreds, more like 8 - 10, which I think it could handle.
No treatments have been done, I held off the quinine on a gut feeling (hey, maybe some of your knowledge transmitted through a 6th sense or something...). Anyway, continuing along this path, and I'll send you updates. Thanks for validating my course of action!
Thomas
<Welcome Thomas. BobF>

Re: Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crypt  6/5/08
Hey Bob, quick one this time. I wrote this one below on Monday this week...
we had no signs of ick until this morning, Thursday. I did a 10% water change last night, vacuuming substrate and scrubbing hard algae off the
glass. This morning most of the fish have a small outbreak of ick, not just the ABT. This is the first time the other fish have shown any cysts. Think
the stress of the water change may have caused it, and do you think I should continue the non-treatment or go to the quinine bullpen? It had been about 5 days since there had been any active sign of the Ick.
Thanks,
Thomas Roach
<Mmm, if it were mine, the Quinine. B>

Re: Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crypt
Ok, will do. I've got the 20gal to put some of the LR in, with some clams & such, maybe save a few ?pods. I had some fan worms that did survive the last treatment, not so confident on them making it, though. I guess I'll start this process tonight. Ugh. Misery. I better buy some more beer.
<Good quality as well>
I suppose it was worth a shot to see if they could outlast it. It certainly wasn't like ick I've seen... this seems much more noticeable, as far as cyst
size.
<Remember the cysts are NOT the Crypt, but the hosts reactions...>
It's definitely ick, makes me wonder if that horrible deal I had to mess with last year was Oodinium. But they just don't seem near as numerous
as ick I've seen in the past this time. And the smallest tad larger.
Quinine it is. Will post results.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you. BobF>

Re: Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crypt 6/6/08
Ick combined with my In-Laws for the weekend... I'm thinking Mexican beer, maybe Corona, but perhaps Modelo. Try the Shiner Bohemian Black if you get a chance, but make sure it's ice cold...
<I do like the Shiner Bock specialty biers... but would likely go with the Negro Modelo...>
I began treatment this morning. I siphoned 20g of water from the main tank into a 20g bare bottom tank and pulled as many hermits, snails, and 3 large LR pieces that had inverts and tube worms on it to try and save them. Dosed with recommended quinine from NFP. Obviously I replaced the 20g with fresh salt water. How long do you think the Quinine will take to begin being effective and providing relief?
<Within a day>
I have been feeding heavier the last couple of days with mysis and Emerald Entrée to try and keep the fish strong, as the ABT has seemed thin. As of treatment this AM, they were all eating well and aggressively. Have not seen any labored breathing or rapid gilling, very little flashing, but they
definitely had the ick on them.
<Try PabloT's Thera A... his Spectrum pelleted food with garlic...>
Last Q: This 20g tank with LR and inverts... does it need to sit for 4
weeks before reintroduction?
<Four, six or more... B>
Thomas Roach
 
Re: Stumped on med effects, Crypt 6/25/08
I had hoped so, too. I cannot believe this, but this morning I had 2 ick cysts on my ABT, and two or three on my Lunare Wrasse. The little cleaner wrasse had made a full recovery from his imbalance, btw... There had been no signs of ick since this email, which was Thursday. 5 days later, I have 4 or 5 ick cysts.
<No fun>
I'm not sure now what course to take. The quinine killed off every invert except for some hermit crabs. I still have my 20g QT tank running with some live rock, snails and pods for reintroduction after it has been fallow for another few weeks. The ick sighting this morning in the main tank, though, sickens me. I'm not sure I want to put them through another 9 day Quinine bath because of the stress of this last extended treatment. As you may recall, we went with Quinine initially because of the banded cat shark that used to reside here.
<Yes, I recall>
Well, he's long gone, so that isn't an issue now. I regret having to treat the main system. Copper is a no-no, as I have read that it can be absorbed into LR and silicone, and remain a danger forever; not to mention the tangs don't like it. There is not much in the way of FAQ, deservedly so, in regards to treating a main system.
<Yes... Want to discourage... entirely>
But before I get hoodwinked into trying some of these Pet Supermarket Ick 'Snake Oils', I thought I might see if you had another idea. Methylene Blue (sp) will whack the bio system, I believe, so we don't want that.
<Won't do any good anyhow>
And even with the trials, I'm not giving up on the hobby, btw. We'll get through it somehow.
Hope this email finds you all well!
Thomas Roach
<Perhaps time to try "striking a balance here" Tom... With subclinical Crypt... BobF>

Re: Stumped on med effects
'Subclinical Crypt'... hmmm... You know, I'm sure this is what I had before, prior to introducing the ABT.
<Yes Tom... this is so>
I'm just not sure how we got to that point, or would get back to it.
<Getting the fish livestock "up to par" health-wise... allowing the Crypt to be less virulent>
You know, I recall dealing with Ick prior to finding WWM, but I also know I did everything wrong you can think of.
I remember dosing with 'Quick Cure', the formalin/malachite green ick remedy, and after reading all the FAQ on it, I can't imagine how my fish lived through it.
<Really does/can work... these compounds are of use... just toxic>
Garlic of course, I've used. And RXP, generally considered worthless as well.
<Is>
All this 'crap' on the market really frustrates a person, what we need is an aquatic FDA to regulate these claims.
<I vote yes>
Whatever procedures you recommend to attain this 'subclinical crypt' I shall follow, o wise one. :D
Thanks so much,
Thomas Roach
<Will ruminate... BobF>

Ick Remedy
Bob,
I went by an LFS and bought this... I'm not using it yet, but I had not seen it before. I figured at worst I could tell you what it is and get an opinion, and if you think it's not safe or worthless, I'll take it back. It's called 'ParaGuard', and it's made by Seachem. "A safe alternative to formalin... Contains no toxic methanol". "...employs a proprietary, synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green, and fish protective polymers..."
and "...only fish and filter safe aldehyde based parasite control product..." That is the pertinent info on the bottle. Any thoughts?
Thanks again!
Thomas
<Worth trying. Was just reading about ayer while making/splitting up the FW Ich FAQs files. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick Remedy  6/26/08
I may try it, then. I may wait a day or so first, though. This morning, the ABT didn't show any cysts at all, the only fish with some was the Lunare
Wrasse, which I would have thought to be the most resilient of the tank.
When I first bought that ABT, he was thin, his upper body seemed painfully thin, but through varied feeding with vitamins, he's really 'thickened' up
and is definitely in much better shape. I believe all of my fish are quite healthy, so I've got a good shot at this.
I bought some more vitamins last night, along with Garlic Extreme (along with this 'ParaGuard', I dropped $60 on three bottles of liquid). What I
found interesting about the ParaGuard is that it makes the claim of 'safe' with a different combination of seemingly effective chemicals, verses a safe
claim using some green tea extract bull hockey and herbal horse feathers. You say you were reading about this particular product? So damn nervous about putting something unknown in the tank...
Thomas Roach
<SeaChem is a good company... Doesn't sell "pigs in a poke"... Just that resident, established situations with ciliates are so entrenched... B>

Re: Ick Remedy, Ctenochaetus sel.  - 7/2/08
As an update, I still have not used the ParaGuard, so alas, I cannot give you any feedback. We seemed to have reached the symbiotic relationship in the tank with the ick and the fish... I have seen a cyst or two once in a while, but has been what, a week now? We've had no major outbreaks and seemingly no concerns. I have been feeding with Garlic Extreme and a vitamin supplement, and they seem to be doing very well.
<Good... is a place... perhaps not the ideal one... that I'd hoped for you>
My questions now turn to Tangs, and I saw a tang at a major chain store which really caught my eye. I did not purchase the tang, as I don't like to purchase livestock from these stores due to the frequent ick sightings in their tanks... however this fish was very gorgeous and I know it was there by mistake. It's something I'd like to try in the future if I can get one from another vendor. I've done some research on the fish, as best I can... it's called a Flame Fin Tomini Tang.
<A very nice Ctenochaetus species appearance wise and for aquarium use>
My reading so far consists of your book and perusing the FAQ here, and there's not a whole lot of data. Mainly I am looking for resilience and compatibility info, so bear with me. The two tangs I have now, the yellow and the Atlantic Blue, are of different genus, which is what I attribute to their compatibility which is very good. The Passer angel causes more flak between them, which is nothing more than a tail flick here or there. This fish, the Tomini Tang, is from a third genus altogether, and if I'm not mistaken, a different geographical range. Your book mentions the other two species in the genus, mainly the Kole Tang, and most of the FAQ has to do with the Kole Tang. I've found a few references to the Tomini in FAQ, but nothing specific.
I was wondering if you might take a few lines to tell me your thoughts on this fish and it's compatibility and it's durability.
<Is a sturdy member of a tough genus... readily accepts foods, aquarium conditions. However, I hasten to add that this fish, likely any addition of members of the entire suborder Acanthuroidei, are not for you here... Your tank is already "tang-ed out"... with the two you have, and unfortunately the addition of another is too likely to bring about too strong/virulent a comeback in the Crypt>
It is quite the gorgeous fish, not sure if I'd even add it at all, but something I might consider now or sometime in the future.
<In another system>
Once again, we all appreciate your time spent and thoughts on our various needs, questions, and issues.
Thanks so much,
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for this update Thomas. BobF>

Re: Ick Remedy  7/3/08
Ah, yes, I really didn't plan on adding any fish now. In the event of an untimely fish death I might, but hopefully that would only occur from old
age... and you answered part two as well, that of the reoccurrence of ick that adding a new specimen (not just of tangs, but of any fish) might cause.
That bothers me more than anything, really. Even if I lost a fish or traded one in (thinking Lunare wrasse at some point, it is quite boisterous, and
eternally hungry), I'm not sure how I would bring about another addition.
<Slowly, deliberately... mixing new water from the quarantine to/from the main/display... assuring new fish/es are very healthy before moving>
I have too much live rock to 'start over' with. I would like to add a few small chromis (green or blue) damsels if possible, perhaps 3 or 4. What do
you attribute the current stock's resilience to crypt, the presence of garlic in their system (meaning ingestion, of course) or just overall health?
<Mostly the latter... perhaps with a bit of acquired immunity tossed in... lastly the viability of your system>
My 20g QT would be of size to hold a few Chromis, which I could feed with garlic and vitamin supplements, if that is the trick. It's an odd
situation I have, indeed.
<Mmm, not odd at all actually Thomas. By my estimation a majority of captive marine systems have resident protozoan parasite populations>
My wife likes corals, and I'm toying with the idea of a 55 gallon reef ready tank to build a coral display, many soft corals (reading that these are
easier for beginners). Think that is too small of a tank to house a Tomini as a sole occupant?
<Mmm, eventually, yes>
How you answer all these so timely is amazing. I'm assuming you have a small fridge near your computer to keep beverages handy.
<Heee, I key quickly. Cheers, BobF>
Thomas Roach

Ich Battle, nuances of truth... not the same as the real thang 05/24/08
Hi crew,
I'm having an ongoing battle with Ich in my 125 FOWLR.
<No fun>
As I acquire exceedingly expensive fish, I want to take care of it once and for all. There is about a one inch crushed coral substrate.  My question is not regarding treatment, but rather, how best to do the treatment under my circumstances.  I'm considering removing my live rock (only 60 lbs.) from the main tank and keeping it in a clean trash can with water, heater and power head. Removing snails, hermits and urchin to container with live rock. I would then add a few PVC pipe pieces for cover and treat the tank with Cupramine (an ionic copper formula
from Seachem).
<Nah>
I'm considering this method because I don't have a hospital tank large enough to house my current livestock (Blue Jaw Trigger, Harlequin Tusk, Cuban Hog).  So my question is this: using the ionic form of copper, will it be possible to remove all but trace amounts of the copper from my system using Polyfilter and or chemi-pure after treatment making my tank safe once again for inverts?
<... won't work>
Will this be the best method of treatment in my situation? I've done so much reading on the subject, but can't quite make up my mind as to whether or not I should go through all this. Many "authorities" and some of my fishy friends claim that Ich is always present
<Incorrect... am out at Interzoo... with Preis Aquaristik, the boyz from TMC, even the OFI pitch with a DNA scanner that can/does detect 60 disease organisms... Your "authorities" are ill-informed... there are specific pathogen free systems, organisms>
and all you can do is maintain optimal conditions and reduce stress as much as possible and the fish will naturally fight it off.
<Oh, something like this IS so>
But after a couple close calls with initially healthy specimens, I question this theory.  Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jason
<See my ancient, though revised pitch on "the three sets of factors that determine livestock health"... and call me in the AM. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich Battle 05/24/08
Bob,
<Jason>
Thanks for the reply. I've read your "three factors" article and also my copy of your book cover to cover a couple of times. In your response you mentioned what exotic locales you are currently visiting as well as some other interesting tidbits of non-relevant info but no real solutions. Maybe I didn't do enough pre-question butt kissing that seems to be required for help?
<... cheap cynicism doesn't become you>
You guys are the most awesome source for info on the web! Ah, good times. But seriously, isn't copper the best means for killing ich? I welcome a helpful response.
<... not the best means, but almost assuredly the most common. Prevention is the best method, hands down... there are vaccines (not available in the U.S.), techniques of dipping/baths for exclusion... the matter of "balance" you mention... Quinone cpd.s can be efficacious... as detailed on... WWM... Putting copper in a main display, particularly with any source of carbonate present... is a slippery slide to oblivion. RMF>
Your Friend,
<Def. please. To me a friend is someone who turns you on to the good things they've found and reciprocally, away from the bad. You've done neither>
Jason

Help with Lion Fish!!! Ich Treatment 5/17/08
Hi!
<Hello>
I love your web site and have read quite a bit of it. I recently had a Toby Puffer pass away in a QT from ICK. We were treating him with Nitrofuracin Green Powder, but I think we just treated him a little too late.
<Unfortunately what you were treating him with has no effect on parasites, its ingredients, Nitrofurazone, Furazolidone and Methylene Blue are antibiotics, not anti-parasitic.>
The problem, is that my very active Lion Fish Paula is now showing signs. He’s not as active as usual and his appetite isn’t completely gone, but he doesn’t eat regularly.
<Not a good sign.>
There are just a few spots on him, but I want to get him in the QT, which I have washed and am preparing for him now.
<All fish in the tank need to be treated in the QT to prevent re-infection.>
I have two questions:
1.) Is it safe to wash, dry out and reuse so soon after a fish died from ICK in it? (Theo, the puffer passed away early this morning)
<As long as it has been completely washed and dried there should be no problems.>
2.) Do you think Nitrofuracin Green Powder is a suitable treatment for my Lion?
<No, an ich specific treatment is needed here, preferably quinine sulfate or formalin due to the lionfish's sensitivity to copper.>
Thanks for your help and a great site!!
Heather & Paula the Lion Fish
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Ich- Ack!, Marine Treatment 5/13/08
Hello Crew,
<Hello>
I hope you all are doing great!
<I am, and to you too.>
I have an all too familiar subject to speak of on your site- Ich!
<Ok>
My tank (175 gal bowfront, FOWLR) has been running for about 2 years now, and all of a sudden we've got Ich. My Foxface, Heniochus, Purple Tang, Queen Angel (teenager), both Neon Gobbies, and all seven Green Chromis have had it for about 5 days now (Coral Beauty has thus far been resistant).
<Probably still infected, just not sympotmatic.>
I've been treating the display with 'No Ich' for a couple of days (Skimmer & Carbon Reactor are both shutdown), and although the situation hasn't gotten worse, it's not getting any better either.
<I strongly suggest against treating the main tank, especially with a "medication" that does not list it's ingredients.>
My wife and I are planning to move all the fish to Quarantine tanks (not sure if one 60 gal tank is best, or three 20 gal?), add copper, and pray.
<I would try to go with a combo of these if possible, otherwise the 60.>
One fish guru at my LFS that I've known for years suggests my wife and I are already doing everything we can; he says in his experience (he's battled Ich for years in his reef tank) even when he's removed all the fish from his display (for 6-months at a time!) the Ich still remains in the display. I thought I read somewhere that the Ich population can't survive without a host for more than a month?
<The science says it cannot live without a host. Most likely his continued problems are due to incomplete treatments for the fish or cross-contamination with another infected tank.>
Thank you so much for taking the time to read this, we really appreciate it.
Daniel
<Welcome>
<Chris>

RE: Ich- Ack!, Marine Treatment 5/13/08
Chris,
<Hello>
We are going to go with three 20 gallon tanks to Quarantine all the fish. Just to make sure, each Q-tank needs:
Heater, Pump, Copper medication, Light
No filters since we'll be using copper, correct?
<Yes, although you could try to use an inexpensive sponge filter to try to get some biological filtration going. Also, Tangs are very sensitive to copper, I would look into using a quinine sulfate on this fish.>
Thanks again,
Daniel
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Ich or not to Ich 4-2-08
Hello there,
<Hi. Yunachin here.>
I appreciate the time you guys have taken in the past to answer my questions. I always review first, before firing away an email.
<Good to know.>
I've got a 125 FOWLR, Regal Tang, Porcupine Puffer, Flame Tang, Hawkfish and Auriga butterfly. I added the Flame and Auriga about a month ago. In 2 weeks, the puffer started to show cottony specks on his fins. I would give him freshwater baths to fight it off. He would look good one day, then back to his original state.
<Were these fish quarantined before introduction into the tank?>
To further fight this, I decided to use garlic in their food (or at least boost all the guys immune systems). In addition, I spoke to my LFS and began introducing Kick-Ich to the tank about a week ago. With Kick-Ich you must turn off the skimmer and remove all carbon and filters (done). A week later as I am finishing up the treatment, the auriga and flame begin to show cottony like specs on their fins as well (nothing on body), in addition to a thin layer of 'cloudy eye' to their eyes.
I am in process of larger water change, as nitrates have gone up with skimmer off and no filters. I feel like I’m in a no-win situation.
I have dipped the parties with issue noted above, but just looking for more techniques/ideas on what to do. Is the cottony specs most likely ich? Is the cloudy eye (bacteria) from high nitrates?
<Not likely ich at all. I cannot stress enough about quarantining any new fish you get before introducing them into your system. Also you never want to add medications to your main system. A hospital tank is always the place to treat fish that are potentially ill. Adding unneeded medicines can do more harm than good as I am sure you have noticed. I would do a large water change, about 75%, turn on all of your equipment and let your tank run. Get a quarantine tanks ASAP and get the sick fish into them and treat with an antibiotic like Formalin and Furazolidone/Nitrofurazone for five days. Do not treat with copper as puffers are very sensitive to it. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm; >
Let me know what other info you need.
<Do the water change on the tank and get those fish into QT. Definitely keep me posted.>
Thanks
<You’re welcome, and Good Luck –Yunachin>
Neil

Re: Marine ICH... No reading, useful data, pix, or prev. corr. FOLLOW DIR.s! 04/22/08
Hi Crew,
<Delia>
This is a follow up email with my ich problem in the tank. Last night, we saw that the blue tang is on the edge of passing. Today, we can't find him anywhere, so I think we have to find his body now. We decided to get the QT,
<... too late for quarantine... Now a treatment system>
even tough it's already too late for the blue tang but I think it is safer for the rest of the fish.
<Is the only route to go>
My ocellaris black and white clown (4 years old) have this greyish (suede) look like all over his skin. I'm not sure if this is his MARINE ICH?
<Me neither... Have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down to the area on Protozoan Diseases of Marine Fishes, Cryptocaryon, Identification... you're wasting time writing now, and your fishes lives>
the little one that I've purchased 2 weeks ago got this same symptoms until today, his covered with this long white thing (looks like his covered in cobweb).
<Please... think of how this reads... meaningless. Do send along a photo or two if you can>
I don't think it's the worm disease that I've found on one of your disease FAQ. My yellow tang, yesterday was getting better from his white spot, today I notice there's a tiny red dot on his left lip. PLEASE HELPPPPP! What's sufficient to quarantine this 3 fish?
<What do you mean? Quarantine systems are described on WWM, their set-up, maintenance...>
Should I give them the methylene blue and fresh water dip before placing them on the QT?
<... up to you>
What medication should I give these 3 fish on the QT?
<What three fishes? You haven't included prev. corr.... again, all treatments are archived/indexed>
Would these medication work for the kinda different symptoms that they currently have. Should I change 50% of water on my display tank? (150 litres). We're thinking of getting a custom 6 foot tank, but not at this point of time. Thank you for your help.
Best Regard,
Delia Suteja
<This is all posted... READ. Send specific questions if you are not clear... not general ones that are gone over and over already. Bob Fenner>

Ich or not to Ich And now QT RE: 4-3-08
Thanks Yunachin for your advice.
My only issue is space for a quarantine tank. Can I use a 6 gallon bucket and connect an air stone for 3-4 hours a day? Something similar? Thank you again.
<No, You would do better purchasing a 10-20 gallon tank due to the fact that you will need filtration. Read up on quarantine tanks here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm; Most often it is better to spend the money on a small quarantine set up, than losing money on sick fish. Good Luck. --Yunachin>

Super Ich?  3/14/08
Dear Mr. Fenner,
I think I may need counseling. I will be as brief as possible. After suffering multiple losses from a case of Oodinium I heated the main system to 85 degrees and let the tank go fallow for 10 weeks. At about the eight week mark I set up my QT (bare bottom, PVC pipes, hang on filter with sponge from my Nano) and purchased a Yellow Tang and an Orange Spotted Goby. I had observed them in the LFS for about one week prior. I believe this particular dealer runs copper in their system.
<Mmm... if relying on this as a prophylactic therapeutic treatment... you must need know this... and that the concentration is constantly high enough...>
These two fish thrived from day one. I waited a full 4 weeks prior to adding them the main system which was left alone for 10 weeks. Today is day 14 since in their new home and you guessed it, to my horror, ICH!
<So... I take it this is not related to the previous incident with Amyloodinium/Velvet>
I feel as though I am always so careful. Per your advise I have read many of the articles on Ich prevention and it's life cycle. I always use freshwater + Methylene blue dip prior to adding to the QT. Is it possible that the parasite survived in cyst form in main system for so long?
<Possible? Yes... again... you're talking two different causative organisms here>
Does the type of substrate, I have about 1.5 inches of black sand, affect the survival
<Perhaps... I think the presence of organic "mulm" is likely more of a factor in such extension>
To add to my problem I now have a Pygmy Angel and a Flame Hawk fish occupying my QT. My kids told me to go to the fish store and ask them what to do. As I have learned this is not always a good idea. I told them that my best advice has come from the "guy who wrote the book." Would it be best to break the whole system down, use bleach, let it dry and entirely replace the substrate. After doing well in the hobby for about 5 years I now understand why so many get frustrated and leave the hobby. I'm not ready to do that. Thanks for listening.
Sincerely, Mark Conley.
<I do sympathize with your situation, and wish there were some "killer technology" I could avail you to give strong assurance that this situation might be resolved for sure... You are indeed faced with the two extreme choices... to dump/bleach the system, starting over... Or continue some means of treating the present... A formalin-based dip will kill the resident trophonts... I would review the general articles on both these scourges: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
(and soon), and make this decision... through knowledge and action. Bob Fenner>

Yet another case of crypt... and RMF's ongoing crap attempts at sarcasm   3/9/08
Hey crew!
<Howzit?>
I'd really like to field a question to you guys.
<Well, okay!>
From what I gather on the site, copper or comparable alternatives are best bets in a hospital tank treating crypt, along with hyposaline conditions (<1.010) if the fish can handle it for 6-8 weeks while the main tank goes fallow.
<Mmm, depends... on what means by "best", the species involved, their apparent health otherwise...>
I've been going in circles with the LFS which have been insisting that upgrading to a much larger UV filter and supplementing food with garlic along with vitamin C will cure crypt.
<Mmm, will not... I'll bet you any sum in the universe>
They've made claims that they've cured massive outbreaks of crypt in their 2400 gallon show tank this way.
<Mmm, define "cured">
In a lack of judgment I listened. You've probably already guessed it didn't work.
<What a shock! Okay... am terrible at cheap drama>
While I was doing this (since I had my doubts from the beginning) I've put together a quarantine tank and the only thing left to do is move the fish.
Our current setup is a 180gal FOWLR (since our xenia died within minutes of adding a teaspoon of concentrated garlic...)
<Yummy on pizza, some soups... and not too bad for breath... as long as all are consuming... Oh, back to your story>
We have a 6" powder blue tang, 6" Koran angel, 2.5" flame angel, two 4" yellow head sleeper gobies, very large tentacle anemone, 1.5" black/white false percula clown, couple cleaner shrimp, 1" yellowtail damsel, 1" striped damsel, and a handful of turbo snails/stars/etc. Tank is approximately 4-5 months old, our first attempt at saltwater... and either the powder blue tang or the Koran introduced the ich (last two fish added)
<Easily done... not quarantined...>
We're running wet/dry with a 40gal sump, couple 1200gph return pumps, needle wheel skimmer, and 50 watts of UV on one side of the return, along with 200 watts of HOT5 and 400 watts of PC.
I've also put together a 56gal column hospital tank with identical water parameters (1.022 salinity, 82F temp, 8.4PH...) with a canister filter (no carbon), small UV filter, bare bottom with PVC pipe for fish hiding decor to use as the quarantine tank.
I've got cold feet. If at all possible I do not want to put the fish through the stress of being moved. They are all eating fine and active, although the Koran seems to scratch himself on the aragonite and the rest of the fish seem to fling their bodies against the water jetting into the tank, like they are trying to knock something off of them. Is there absolutely anything I can do to deal with the ich without putting the fish through the move between tanks?
<Sure... seek to strik