Re: live rock, Cupramine   6/5/07
Hello again!
<Howzit?>
(hope I'm not driving you up the wall with all these questions...) Well, I have hospitalized all my fish, did the freshwater dip just prior to that. On the first day of Cupramine treatment everything was fine, fish was eating. The next day, the butterfly looked dis-stressed, breathing fast, and stopped eating. I understand that it is not coping well with the Cupramine. So, I did a 25% water change. How should I continue with treatment?
<... you're not reading...>
would hypo-salinity be a good alternative? or just very low doses of Cupramine,
<Ditto... if the concentration is not maintained at a physiological dose you're wasting your time, your animals' lives>
and lots of water changes? Another question regarding wet-dry filtration.... I understand the cons after reading up on WWM..... Is it possible to use the filter simply for aeration, particle filtration (filter floss), and periodic chemical filtration (carbon)?? or would the dry part of wet-dry still have negative effects?
thanks again for all your help!!!
Mark
<... Please... don't write... READ. BobF>

Marine Ich question
Dear Bob (or whoever is filling in),
<Howdy!>
I have two unrelated questions. My display tank is 110 gallons, with a wet-dry, Coralife super skimmer, 18W u/v, 50 lbs live rock, a yellow tang, blue hippo tang, gold stripe maroon, lawnmower blenny, red legged hermits and snails. I don't have any coral, except an unidentified lime green polyp (star?) that came in on rock (see attached).
Problem/question 1: As I mentioned previously, I am a moron
<Well, being moronic is more the case than not then...>
and was too impatient to quarantine my blue hippo tang, who promptly came down with ich. I moved him to my 30 gallon QT and dosed with .25 ppm copper.
He is now doing quite well in the QT, with all spots gone, eating, etc. My other fish showed no signs of ich. Today, however, I noticed one small "clump" on the top of the tail of my yellow tang, and a tiny spot on the bottom dorsal fin (see attached). He is acting totally normal--eating like crazy, darting all around, waving his tail at me, etc. Notwithstanding the foregoing, I'm sure that he's infected (as is the rest of my tank).
<Too likely so...>
So, I've resigned myself to the fact that my Memorial Day will be spent catching my other three fish and dumping them in the QT and then letting my tank go fallow (how long?).
<A month or more... see WWM... better to elevate temp., lower spg...>
I'm a little nervous about my blenny and copper, and wondered how sensitive he is?
<Sensitive enough that I'd keep the free Cupric ion (physiological dose) on the lower side... ), 0.20 ppm, no lower than 0.15 ppm>
Also, I bought some Rid-Ich+ and was thinking of using that as a dip before putting everyone in the QT. Any thoughts on this approach and how long to dip?
<Do this ONLY while observing directly... aerate the water (the Formalin makes breathing/respiring VERY difficult), and WATCH your livestock for signs of obvious OVER stress... and remove then... likely a few minutes (depends on concentration, the make-up water, the extant health/fitness of the stock...) will do here>
Second question: I noticed today that I have tons of very tiny, clear/white organisms hanging out and scooting along the back panel of my tank. They are mobile, moving almost like shrimp would with a flick of the tail. I can't photograph them because they're so small. Any thoughts on what they might/could be?
<Likely crustaceans of some sort... not a worry...>
Thanks. As always, I really appreciate the help. The site and response center is really great and a wonderful tool for us all.
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>

Maybe Ick  5/22/07
Hello Crew.
<Howdy>
Months ago I introduced a blue tang without proper quarantine and I lost a him and some other fish due to ick. I treated the main tank with some organic product to protect the live rock and crabs.
<... not a fan...>
Finally I corrected the temperature fluctuation that I suspected triggered the ick and I added a UV Sterilizer.
Everything has been well for 15 weeks.
<Latent...>
Meanwhile I replaced the blue tang and held him in a bare quarantine tank for 11 weeks and he's been just fine.
Acclimation was in the form of taking water change water form the main tank and putting it in the quarantine tank every day for 5 days and then a normal acclimation. Finally I very gently netted him out and placed him in the main tank. The yellow tang chased him for the first couple of hours and then they seem to be just fine. This was 4 days ago. Today the blue tang looks like he has one pop eye with a cloudy cornea and a few bumps with white dots on his black stripes. sigh. have I just restarted the ick cycle and in any case, what should I do next?
<Read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... formulate a plan... It may be that you'll have to pull all the fish livestock, treat elsewhere... or on the other side of the range of possibilities, learn to live with a resident infestation... Bob Fenner>

Royal Dottyback develops Popeye in QT... Crypt lack of understanding debacle...    5/21/07
Hi Guys,
<Michael>
Great site!...I've done tons of reading but this is my first time with a question.
<Okay>
I'm in the middle of dealing with a Marine Ich problem; it's been LONG road with a few little surprises along the way.  It all started with the addition of 2 hepatus tangs; that I had to order from my LFS.  
(Apparently they are hard to export
<Mmmm, not usually, though smaller specimens are seasonal>
and therefore hard to obtain; maybe it's a Canadian thing; they cost $70 each)
<Yikes!>
  My display tank is a 55
<Mmm, too small for Paracanthurus...>
and contained 2 yellow-tailed damsels, 2 4-stripe damsels, 2 clowns, 1 Royal Dottyback, 2 Pacific cleaner shrimp and 1 blood red shrimp.  Inverts are 2 brittle stars, snails, 1 LT anemone and 1 really small anemone that hitchhiked in on a chunk of polyps.
Now I'm still learning here, and I now know better, BUT... I put the tangs right in my display tank.
<D'oh!>
  Next day they were covered in Ich.  LFS advised to me to buy a UV sterilizer,
<...>
and I did.  (it's a AA 9W model).  
It seemed to help a bit at first but after reading here, I realized that it wasn't going to be the cure I was seeking.
<Correct>
  So I bit the bullet and bought a 10-gal for QT purposes,
<Mmm, not quarantine here, but treatment>
moved my established Skilter to it and filled it with water from my 55.  Getting the fish out of the 55 was interesting; to say the least; I had to take all the rock out; but I managed to get it done with my wife's help within a half hour.
<Good>
So every day I did a water change of about 10% or so, and turned the temp up to 85, and used the UV.
  My LFS sold me some Greenex but I was hesitant (after the horror stories I read here) so I didn't use it.  
After a few weeks I was seeing signs of improvement on the tangs.
<Mmm, still need to be treated chemically here>
  The ICH seemed pretty much gone but they were scratching on the heater a lot; and my black & white damsels were scratching a lot too.  So I decided to try Lifeguard
<... NOT a fan>
because it was low dose and seemed relatively safe.
<And ineffective>
When I started the treatment, my B&W damsels got really shirty and started attacking the yellow-tails.  So much in fact that they killed both of them.  When they started beating up on the Dottyback my wife insisted I return them to the LFS so I did.  Now my QT has 2 tangs, 2 clowns and the Dottyback only.  I've started gradually bringing down the temp to match my display tank at 76; and have been doing water changes as normal now that the lifeguard treatment is finished (1 tablet per day for 5 days, no charcoal or UV).  The Dotty's tail was beat up pretty bad (like it was chewed down to the bone) but it seems to be healing OK (the fish is still eating)... but now both eyes are bulging nastily.
I'm just wondering now if maybe I should pull the clowns & tangs out and treat only the Dottyback with either Lifeguard or Greenex; or if I should just keep them in QT (now meds) until all five of them seem 100%.  (It's been just over 30 days in QT).  No sign of Popeye in the clowns or tangs, and there hasn't been much scratching; just the tangs and just lightly.
Any advice would be appreciated,
Mike.
<I do wish we had "chatted" when all of this started... Or, while I'm wishing, let's go all the way back to your start in the hobby... and have you quarantine all incoming livestock, avoid mixing the Damsels... At this juncture, I am further hoping your fishes aren't too beat to withstand a real regimen of treatment... You've got a bit of reading to do... to define a treatment plan: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to the royal blue line... the articles and FAQs files below on Crypt... Bob Fenner>

Tangs <Actually entire system> with Whitespot - help pls  5/17/07
Hi Fishmasters,
<Well, okay!>
I have been reading through your site and it is awesome. Thanks for providing so much help already. I know there are numerous articles already around this topic but I feel I am a bit unique and also very confused so am asking for some specific help.
<All right... though having read through your query, there is a need for you to study in depth... your situation is far from atypical>
I have kept a marine tank for a couple of years.
3 weeks ago I purchased a 6ft*2ft*2ft tank with a bio ball mini sump (150 ltrs), protein skimmer and UV sterilizer.
It also came with fish -
<Really?>
2 * brown tangs,
<Mmm, what species?>
1 * yellow tang,
1* Unicorn Tang,
1* Gold rim tang,
<Acanthurus nigricans (nee glaucopareius)?>
1* Foxface,
1* Rabbit fish,
<This is a bunch of Acanthuroid species for such a size system...>
1* velvet damsel,
1* tomato clown,
7* small damsels
2 * Trigger fish - which I have removed due to my previous experience and there reputation of being aggressive.
<Probably wise here... depending on species, individuality>
I relocated the tank and most of the water, I mixed about 250 litres of new water and cycled it. While waiting all the fish were inhabitants of an established 90 litre salt water tank with a canister filter (very small I know - but better than nothing). Due to some complications with the relocation they stayed in this tank for some 24 hrs. (Longer than I wanted).
I am feeding Pellets/Flake (both contain Spirulina), Mysis shrimp, Raw Garlic, Blanched Parsley/English spinach, dried seaweed.
About two weeks ago my Gold rim displayed the first stages of whitespot
<A "very catching" species for/with such>
and I treated him with a freshwater bath.
<Will only remove the exterior-most feeding stage...>
(at this point I had not read your webpage and did not know that I needed to repeat the treatment so only did it once for 5 min.s).  
He is now covered badly with whitespot but still eating and relatively active. This morning my unicorn tang also came down with it and a few of the others they also look like they are getting it.
<Yes... the entire system and all fish have it...>
The tank contains live rock and coral sand but NO corals.
Water parameters are Salinity 1.02,
<Another decimal place here>
Temp 26 degrees Celsius, ph 8.3,
Ammonium and Nitrite 0mg/l, Nitrate - 15mg/l
I have not done a water change since collecting the tank and adding the new water.
I went to my LFS and they suggested Ichonex Aquasonic (which you referenced in another post as being only for freshwater). Although the bottle does not say this various web pages do, although my LFS swears by it. The active ingredient is Formaldehyde (37mg/ml).
<... very toxic... and covered: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm and the linked files above...>
My question I guess is how do I treat the whole tank - and is this viable?
<Also covered... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to the bright royal blue bar...>
I don't have a QT yet.
<Too late for this... now you need a treatment system...>
I really appreciate any help you can offer.
Regards
Dan Stopher
<... You NEED to read, and soon... and formulate a treatment plan... or all your fish livestock will perish. READ. Bob Fenner>

Recovering from Ich 5/17/07
Hey guys,
<Hello>
Thanks so much for your help along the way!  I'm still new to this hobby, but have been reading your work in depth, but unfortunately, mostly when I find I have a problem.  <Most often the case.>  This is one of those times.  My tank has a pretty heavy case of ich.  Did I quarantine my new fish?  No. I didn't know that I needed to.  Now after studying your articles (thanks Steve Pro) I realize the severe consequences, and hence, the necessity of quarantining fish for at least a month after acquiring them before introduction to the display tank. <Yep>  My problem now is that I have a beautiful display tank with fish that are visibly suffering from the disease.  As I understand it, without letting the tank fallow, I will never rid the tank of the disease, and I would like, as Steve Pro suggests is possible, an ich free system. <Good.>
My plan right now is to establish a hospital tank to put all the fish in while my main tank fallow for a month. <6 to 8 weeks is better, 1 month is the absolute minimum.>  My question is: how would you suggest I run this tank?  I will do frequent water changes, <Daily most likely necessary.>  I will clean the glass daily, and keep it Spartan for cleanliness purposes.  What else should I be doing? What kind of filter should I run to try to capture the crypt in its floating form? <Not really possible, too small.  You need to treat the fish in some manner, copper, hyposalinity, formalin, depending on your livestock.>  The logistics of getting these fish healthy and ich free so they can go back to their tank is really what I need instructions on.  Any help would be wonderful,
Thanks guys!
Craig
<Many possibilities here depending on your livestock, but copper is the most common treatment method.  Be aware that some fish are very sensitive to copper treatments and other methods need to be used.  Look around in our disease section for more details.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm .>
<Chris>

New to Crypt! Time to read!    5/15/07
I have some fish that aren't well a blue tang who caught
<?>
white spot first and a zebra angel who know has it too.
<All the fishes present, the system "has it">
I treated the water once with 14 tablets
<Heeeeee? Of what? Fizzies?>
and did a 60% water change but the parasite just came back.
<Uh huh>
I have raised the water temp to 30 degrees and dropped the salinity to 1019 left it for three days
<... this won't "do it">
but the white spots still there. What do I do bath/dips or copper solution please help me my fish aren't looking to healthy. Thank you
<Uhh, Mmmm... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to the bright, royal blue line... You need to (and quickly) understand what you're up against, formulate and execute against a plan... or all your fish livestock will perish. Bob Fenner>
More?
Sorry its Jake again or is there any other way I can deal with this problem please let me know ASAP thanks.
<You're cracking me up Jake... there's a few tens of thousands of "you" daily, and only twenty or so of "us" mate... Learn to/use the indices, search tool on WWM... Now! Bob Fenner>

Treatment dilemma... Crypt w/o present understanding    5/11/07
Hey guys and gals, Just want to first thank you for the wonderful service you provide. I have a quick question that I'd like some assistance with. I currently have a fairly new 38 gallon FOWLR. It's roughly 2 and a half months old and currently have 30 lbs. aragonite and 20 lbs live rock. Water parameters are as follows; Ph 8.2, 78*f, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 20 nitrates.
<Please see WWM re>
I have a 2" Royal Gramma and 4 Turbos in the main tank as well as a 10 gallon QT tank filled with water from the main tank currently housing a 3" Flame Angel in QT.
<This system is too small for this species>
My question is, earlier today I noticed the Royal has come down with a mild case of ich (well, mild as of now) and would like advice on how to treat since my QT tank is currently occupied.
<Need to get another tank going... Treatment...>
I suspect freshwater dips would be in order to catch it
<No, not likely>
prior to it becoming a more serious issue however since the Royal is living in the main tank I'd like to avoid reintroducing him back into the main tank after treatment without dealing with the ich that is currently present in the main tank.
<... all fishes need to be isolated, treated... the system itself (is infested), needs to be left fallow (sans fish hosts)...>
I'd like to get away with not having to buy a second QT tank
<Return the Flame Angel>
however I will if absolutely necessary and would like some advice as to what steps I can take to treat the Gramma.
On a side note I did pick up a bottle of Kordon's Rid Ich+
<See WWM re...>
but don't believe I can use it in the main tank and I'm not sure how effective it would be as a dip. Please advice.
Greatly appreciated.
Blake
<You've got a bit of reading to do: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
The sections on Marine Parasites, Parasitic Tanks, Cryptocaryon... Formulate a plan and execute... and soon. Bob Fenner>

Post-Crypt Tank    5/7/07
Hi,
<Welcome Fred.>
I have a 220gal tank that had been set up w/ 150# fully cured LR for about 2 months.
<Neat.>
I then started adding fish - some that I had in my prev. smaller tank,  - others that I had in QT for a min. of 2 weeks ( from now on will be at least 4 weeks).
<So far so good.>
I tried not to add fish faster than one or two every few weeks till all were in.
<Okay.>
A few weeks later they all came down w/ ich,  I ended up losing several beautiful fish.
<Sorry to hear that, but how quick did they perish? Cryptocaryon is not typically a quick killer.  For more specific on the parasites lifecycle do see Steven Pro's articles on reefkeeping.>
So out came all the fish - put into Hospital tanks/ treated appropriately w/ copper.
<Okay.>
Then all were put together into a 55 gal tank w/ LR to allow the main tank to be fallow for a full 10 more weeks.
<Okay.>
All fish have been fine  and I am ready to move them back into the main tank.
Can I add them all at once or what time frame/ frequency would you recommend?
<One or two every few days, not all at once. And after you do add a "batch" I would go with a large water change.>
The fish ar a large blonde Naso tang, med. b/w Heniochus, 6 b/g Chromis, flame angel, small red wrasse, 2 Bartlett anthias, purple firefish, false
clown fish, a cleaner and a fire shrimp.
<Add the Naso and the Heniochus last...the Chromis first.>
Thanks, Fred
<Welcome Adam J.>

Crypt, Clown comp.    5/3/07
Hello Crew, I have what I hope will be a quick question.  I have a 100 gallon display tank that recently came down with ich.  I'm sorry, I wasn't quarantining, but didn't know better, honest!  I do now, and will from now on, promise!  Currently all fish, including a pair of Ocellaris clownfish, a pink spot goby, 8 Chromis, and two fire fish are in a spare 40 gallon recovering.  All have been ich free for approximately 2 weeks.
I am now returning the specific gravity back to normal through water changes, and I hope to be at 1.025 by the end of this week.
<How were these fishes treated? If only by manipulated spg, they almost certainly are carriers still...>
The fish will spend another four to six weeks in the hospital tank while the display goes fallow.  Here is my question. I have always wanted a pair of black Ocellaris clownfish.  While looking through your website, there seems to be some dissention between the crew as to whether or not Ocellaris and Black Ocellaris will co habitat.  On the page http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clnfshcompfaq3.htm James Salty Dog) says in a 135 the fish will be fine, but later Brenda says you can't mix them at all.  I should also note I have two anemones
<What species?>
in the display, separated by a rock outcropping.  They seem to be flourishing, in fact both have deepened in color and grown since I've had them.  I'm figuring that now would be the best time to add the black Ocellaris, as there is nothing in the hospital tank to be territorial over, and the current pair are away from their host anemone. I  know my current clowns are pretty docile, as they often share their sebae anemone with my pink spot goby, which freaked me out more than a little the first time I saw him perched on it.  Thank you very much for your opinion, and any advice you can give.  Vince.  
<In a hundred gallons... I give you good odds of compatibility here... But do read re Crypt, Hyposalinity... on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Re: Crypt, Clown comp. – 5/4/07
Hello Bob, Thank you for responding to my query.  I did not want to treat with Copper, since I originally had a Kole tang, which unfortunately succumbed to the ich.  I did treat with Formalin-3, as dictated on the bottle. Unfortunately I don't know of a test for Formaldehyde, so I've been doing 10 gallon water changes every other day.
<Good... is very toxic. A biocide.>
I know Formalin is some pretty noxious stuff, and I'm hoping I have the vast majority out by now.  I also raised the temperature in the tank to 84 degrees, hoping to speed up the life cycle of the ich, and reduced the SPG to 1.012.
<All helps>
I vacuumed the bare bottom every day, and currently all the fish are spot free and feeding very well.  I have in my display tank a Sebae, which is approximately 10 inches across, and a Corkscrew LTA which is about 6 inches across.  I had the Sebae first, and have since nursed it back to full color and expansion from the bleached white it was when I purchased it some two years ago.
<Ah, good>
I had often heard that you should not mix anemones, but when I was at my LFS in the tank I purchased the LTA out of there was a mix of Sebaes and LTAs.
<Some species, individuals do get along better than others...>
Most were in fact touching each other.
<Temporarily...>
  I asked the owner, and he told me Sebaes and LTAs are compatible with each other, and that I as long as I didn't add a bubble tip or carpet I should be fine.  I also run a carbon reactor, which I believe helps keep down any chemical warfare.
<Yes>
Do you think I should add the black Ocellaris to the QT tank all the other fish are in now, of would I be better off QTing them separately, and adding them and all other fish back to the display tank at the same time?
<I strongly urge waiting... doing separately later>
Thank you for such a great site, it has guided me in the right direction on more than one occasion.
Vince
<Very happy to assist you. Bob Fenner>

White spots coming and going   4/22/07
Dear Bob,
<Justin>
Firstly, thank you, thank you, thank you, for having this amazing transition from freshwater to marine aquatics and fishie guardianship!
<We are pleased>
So I'm worried about my fish.  Is it possible (or probable) that a fish will scratch if it has live rock dust, crushed coral dust, or something else stuck to it?
<Mmm, yes... Some scratching, glancing behavior is common with most all species>
Or, does the presence of white spots and occasional scratching indicate ich?
<Can>
If you want the long narrative, here goes...
About a month ago I added a small (1 in.) hippo tang and a blenny to join my juvenile/transitioning imperator angel,
<Sans quarantine...>
whom I had inherited with the tank (a friend moving out of country) and a pair of cleaner shrimp I'd purchased two plus months before that (the (FOWLR) tank's a year old with me, and I'd lost two percula clowns in the move).  The angel harassed the tang for a while, which subsequently sustained small, crescent shaped lacerations that went away as the tang got smarter and the angel more... angelic.
<Well put>
About ten days ago I noticed some white spots on the tang; I freaked out and went through the medication my friend had left for me.  In the bin, I found Greenex (dum da dum dum), saw it was "reef safe,"
<Uh, no>
looked it up on the web, had this confirmed, and doused the tank.
<No!>
  The tank went green along with the tubes, and the protein skimmer went haywire, the spots disappeared immediately, the fish went a little pale, and the shrimp died.
<...>
I unplugged the skimmer after the first dose, read your missives on Greenex after the second dose, and felt that the third (and final, according to the "directions"), if it kept the ich from returning, would be worth the risk.
<Not...>
That round finished, I vowed to use a QT tank for any further medicating,
<Actually... a treatment tank... not Quarantine... different concept, use... often different arrangement>
did the repentant water change and carbon filtration, and thanked heaven my angel was ok.
This evening (now two days after the last Greenex drip, and one full day of carbon), I notice a few white specks on the tang's fins (two on left side of caudal and four on the left pectoral and one on the top of the dorsal) and some very occasional darting/scratching.
<It's baaaaack!>
All the fish were very active when I fed them, as they have been throughout.  But, having read about the near certain dreaded relapse of ich, I freak out again and set up the QT and set about the hilarious (to everyone but me) task of trying to catch a very clever couple of fish.  I caught the angel but in going after the tang, which involved moving the rock, having it wedge into rock, coaxing it out, etc., I saw it suddenly had identical white spots (dozens) all over its body that definitely "stuck."
<Ah, yes>
"Great," I thought, I lost a pair of shrimp and exposed the tank to poison because I misread white spots and darting/scratching for ich.   
<Mmm, highly likely did NOT misread... just did not effect a cure...>
A few minutes later, most of the "dust" was gone.  I could still see a speck on the dorsal a few on the pectoral fin but it's still mostly hiding and won't give me a good show.
So, previous mistakes aside, should I be gearing up for a coupl'a month-long quarantine and doing this quickly?
<Not quarantine... treatment, then quarantine/isolation>
Could the white spots have been dust all along?
<Not likely>
And just how long does it take for the ich cysts to "fall" from the fish with a medicine/poison dose and how short of a time can it take for them to return?
<Mmm, if only a single generation (gets more complicated with time going by...) four or five days at tropical temperatures... Two weeks total treatment almost always is definitive>
I hate to hesitate in starting the quarantining process as I've read ich is best cured if caught "early,"
<Yes, this is so>
and don't know if this is like Ebola or like cancer.  And really I don't feel like exposing my fish to formalin (as I worry the angel won't deal with copper).
Thanks so much, and sorry for the long email.  I hope that if you had an early idea, you were able to skim/ignore the rest.
Cheers,
Justin
<Mmm... a few items to be related here... I'd like you to start reading here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and on to and through some of the linked files above... on Parasitic Systems, Crypt Treatments That Work... Bob Fenner>

Ahh Ich has got all our fish, almost! Just study   4/21/07
Hi,
Your guys website is awesome and I have spent so many hours reading it that I haven't got much done and it appears I have a lot to do. We are very amateur and just about to set up a QT tank and can't decide whether we should be treating with copper or formalin. All we have left are a scooter blenny, a flame angel, a golden head sleeper goby, six line wrasse. RIP 2 perc clowns, 1 yellow spotted yellow box fish, 1 regal tang, 3 damsels ahhh I think that's it. We sent our inverts off to the pet store to stay there while we treated the tank
<Can't be done...>
with what they recommended, malachite green,
<... dismal>
so I have read bad idea. We realized that was bad turned on the protein skimmer and hooked up the fluval with carbon in hopes to draw it back out, the inverts have to come back in 2 days now, is this okay?
<Maybe>
So the QT tank do we do copper or formalin? or neither and try something else and if so what and how?
<All posted...>
Also if we cant get any methylene blue at the moment should we just do the freshwater dip then transfer to QT or wait until tomorrow and get the blue? I've got so much homework to do that I really shouldn't be doing this stuff. We are at our wits end and are trying hard not to chuck the whole very expensive investment out the window. Please help!
Thanks Carly and Kyle
<Please read: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... till you understand your options... and consequences. There are no simple yes/no answers here... need to know more than you've presented to even start to direct you more determinately... Study if you want to know... Bob Fenner>

Ich or not?   3/31/07
Hi crew! I've scoured the ich FAQs but still I have a question. Boy this is a long story. I have a clown and a firefish that came down with ich in Nov 06. I studied up on ich extensively and tried to go the hyposalinity route.
<Almost never effects a real cure>
It staved it off for a few weeks but put them in a QT and treated with copper. They were there for 4 weeks (the DT was running fallow). From what I read it was an acceptable amount of time.
<Mmm, a good minimum>
I then put them back in the main tank and 2 days later I saw a couple of spots. At the advise of the LFS I tried Kick Ich
<...>
(yes, I know, junk). At 10 days my clown was sitting on the bottom leaning over. Immediately I put them into a QT with Bio Spira. Then treated with copper. Monitoring water params and doing PWC they've been fine. They've been there for 5 weeks now.   Neither have shown any spots, but occasionally they flash on the pvc.
<Not necessarily indicative...>
Believe me I watch them like a hawk all day looking for any signs of spots and none. They eat like pigs! Here's the question: Do they still have ich or have they built up an autoimmunity to it and they are fighting it?
<Maybe, but doubtful... and good speculation. Does happen>
At what point can I introduce them back to the DT? I planned on waiting on another month. Told ya it was long. Thanks! Jennifer
<Heeee! The wait on your and your fishes parts perhaps... Another month is what I would do here as well. Bob Fenner>

Re: ich or not?   4/1/07
Wow!  Mr. Fenner, it tis an honor! Thank you for your quick response. What could the flashing be a sign of?
<Mmm, an itch you can't scratch...>
I'll do a search on WWM.  So I am on the right path, if my fish are status quo after one month (no spots but still flashing) should I be ok to add them back to the DT?  Thank you for wisdom and guidance!  Jennifer
<Yes... Welcome. Bob Fenner>

I can not take one more Ich outbreak!!!!   3/31/07
Hey Bob and Crew,
About three months ago I wrote to ya'll about an Ich outbreak that I had in my tank. Even after a 6 week QT of the fish, somehow my tank got Ich. With the advice from Bob, I held it at bay for about 7 weeks in the main tank hoping that garlic, ginger, and any other spice
<Yikes...>
I could get my hands on would work. Finally I lost the battle and it was time to remove the fish. I took Bob's advice and I FW/Meth Blue dipped the fish (1 yellow tang, 1 Royal, 1 flame angel, 3 Neon Gobies, and two false clowns) and put them in for copper treatment. I shelled out big bucks for Noga's book and learned all I could on the subject. I lost the Tang and the Flame to the copper.
After two weeks of copper, I ran the QT tank at 1.010 SG for 4 weeks plus one additional week to bring the tank out of Hypo. No signs of Ich. I did not dip the fish again because I did not want any added stress to them, plus there should have been nothing that made it past copper and hypo. During the 7 weeks I let the tank run fallow at a temp of 84 degrees. My hope was that anything that was living in the tank would die off without a host in that 7 weeks and the increase of temperature would speed up the life cycle of the Ich like Noga suggested that it would.
<Yes. S.O.P.>
Well as of Tuesday, I put the fish back in the display tank. Their color was the best I had seen, they were healthy and happy to be home. Come home from work today, Thursday, and I have a white spot on the male clown and one small one on the tang!!! How can this be?!?
<Persistent case... Does happen unfortunately. Cryptocaryon can "rest out" for actually a very long time...>
What have I done wrong?!?
<Mmm, nothing that I can see, read here. Your activity should/would have resulted in eradication in ninety some percent of cases>
  I am not sure if my eyes need to be checked or what...It has been reported that Ich can live incased for up to 3 months
<Even longer...>
(1 month being more the typical belief) but I have only read this in an old Noga writing and also believe that temps > 84 degrees speed up this process. So at this point I am at a loss. The only thing I can think of is that the Ich lived longer then 7 weeks in the tank.
<Appears to be the case... Almost all such protozoan complaints DO come from (other) fish/es... However the resting stages of Crypt, Amyloodinium have been found off their hosts in other areas... including processed brine shrimp nauplii>
Through the entire 7 weeks I left the UV on and it still remains on. I have a stock of 5-Nitroimidazoles that I could try... Other then that it is going to break my heart to pull them out again and I do not think the fish can handle another dose of CU this soon.
If ya have any insight, I am all ears...
<If it were me, mine, I'd see if the balance will stay turned to you, your fishes advantage here at this stage. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked file and the two on Parasitic Reef Systems above. Bob Fenner>

 

"Is it ich, make no mistake... Is it ich..." TomRs ending saga   9//15/07
Bob, hello once again if it's you! Hopefully this is the last update on the infestation of ick/Oodinium that we had. Now it's been over 2 weeks with no signs, so I'm saying we are cured. I was able to get some LR from a store that didn't have any fish in the system, and turning on the lights before daybreak one morning, I caught hundreds of copepods eating algae, so that's good, I believe.
<Me too>
I think, honestly, I may trade my little shark in;
<I think this is prudent>
He will now only eat ghost shrimp. No formula, no silversides, no krill, no squid. I think he only wants live food. This past time I soaked some flake food with Zoecon and put that in with the ghosts for an hour or so before feeding them, hoping to get this guy some nutrition. I'm thinking of trading him in because, honestly, these are better off in species tanks.
<Ah, yes>
I wish that LFS's would pay more attention to what they sell;
<Agreed... and that collectors, wholesalers... end-users would play their parts as well...>
I dreamed of a pet shark since I was 5 (34 now), so that's too bad. I cannot really think of another live food that you could introduce that he could 'hunt' without risking introducing another round of parasites, and we are never taking that risk again. My first preference is to keep him, of course, but I'm running out of feeding options.
If I trade him in, I will have a 200 gallon, 6'x24"x27" tank with a 6" Passer Angel and two Damsels. I would like to add another fish if possible, if you think it would be feasible. I've read most of the FAQ on Compatability of the Passer, but I'd like your opinion on what you think would go well with him, if you think it's not out of the question to have another addition.
<Many choices... perhaps a wrasse or two of an appropriate species... look at the genus Thalassoma>
Oh, and thanks for getting me through that ick time. That was stressful.
The best LFS here will tell you that ick is always present and is brought on by stress. A protozoan free tank is impossible, from how they see it. But as of today, I've got a clean tank. :-) I've been mentioning your website on my visits, and hopefully it will pay off for their customers sooner or later.
Again, thanks.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you Thomas. BobF>

Oh no....ich...please help   3/27/07
Hello Bob and Crew,
Thanks for all of the helpful information contained on wetwebmedia.com.  I have spent hours reading through the links and have learned so much.  I understand a lot of the ich treatments, but I'm unclear how to proceed.
Here is my issue:  Approximately a month and a half ago, I purchased an established 55 gallon aquarium (running a little over a year) that has a Fluval 404 (ceramic rings that I rinse with tank water when I do water changes and a nitrate reduction pad that I've been changing every 5 days as media) and a CPR Double BakPak for filtration.  It has 1.5-2 inches of live sand in the bottom (Aragalive)
<Mmm, better to have more or less... See WWM re>
and 40-50 pounds of live rock.  It contains a Foxface, a Flame Angel,
<Both species need more room than this>
a sand sifting goby, a bicolor blenny, a Mandarin, a Jawfish, and a Firefish.  It also had a Longnose Hawkfish and a Cardinal fish, but that seemed like to
<too>
many fishes, so I moved them to a 29 gallon tank that I had cycled for about 6 weeks with live rock.  They are both doing well in the new tank.  The inverts in the 55 gallon are a starfish, a peppermint shrimp, various hermits, and snails.    There is an Elegance Coral,
<Not easily kept...>
some button polyps, and a brown mushroom type of coral.
When I purchased the tank, the Nitrates were very high (over 120 ppm)
<Yikes!>
and I now have them down to 10-20 ppm through 50% water changes a couple of times a week throughout the last month and a half.
<Good>
  Salinity is 1.022.
<I'd keep closer to 1.025...>
Temperature is 78 degrees.  No nitrites or ammonia.  I've been feeding them 1/2 cube of frozen Marine Mix, plankton, or squid 2-3 times per day after I strain the juice off of it. I occasionally give them live bloodworms and brine shrimp.  The fish are active, appear happy, and they EAT like crazy.
However, each morning when I feed them, I see a spot or two of Ich on the Foxface and a few spots on the pectoral fins of the Flame Angel.  By the time I get home from work, the spots are usually gone, but I'm fearful the Ich is going to explode in my tank.  I have been soaking their food in garlic for the past week, and feeding them some chunks of the garlic and the fish do like it, but I just realized that I'm not supposed to use the garlic from the jar because of preservatives.  I'll start to use fresh. I'm unsure how to proceed.  I am thinking about going out after work and getting 2 cleaner shrimps, and some Metronidazole to add to their food in addition to the garlic, but I'm not sure this will be enough.  
<Me neither>
  What are your thoughts?
<At this point, given what you have livestock and system-wise... I'd live with this uneasy balance...>
I have a Marineland 280 with BioWheel that has been running in the tank for about 4 days and an extra 29 gallon, not the one with the Hawkfish, that I can use for a hospital tank.  Should I take all of the fish or just the Foxface and Flame Angel and treat them in the hospital tank?
<You could, but I wouldn't>
I know I can't use Copper with the Flame Angel, so should I use medication containing Formalin?  Or maybe lower the salinity to 1.009-1.010.  Please help!
Casey
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. bob Fenner>

Ich and More 3/27/07
Thanks for your time. <Sure> I have a saltwater 75 FOWLR 60lbs live rock. I was looking closely at some of my live rock and noticed some very small bugs. They are almost clear and look mostly like very small centipedes. Any idea what this could be? <Copepods most likely.> Also, I just purchased a cleaner shrimp, do I need to supplement it with any food or simply let it do its thing on the rock. <Will most likely need to be fed a small amount of fish food.> I have had a fallow tank for just over a month because of an ich problem. Should I go ahead and wait out another couple weeks? <Yep, 1 more month ideally.> I have had a blue devil damsel as a fish to help cycle my quarantine tank, can I put him in there with the shrimp or is that bad news? <Not yet, but will be fine in the future, although I would worry about it being aggressive to other fish.> How should I go about making sure my tank has low enough levels of ich to re-introduce a fish I have quarantined for 3-4 weeks? <Give it time.>  Thanks for all the help and giving us a great site.
<Welcome>
-Jared Hawkins
<Chris>

Ich Infestation - 3/27/07
Hello Gang!
<Hey Kesha, JustinN with you today!>
I have a major problem... I have a 150g reef tank with 200lbs of LR, 6"dsb, 1 Naso tang, 3 clown fish & 2 striped damsels established for 2 years with tons of corals & a few anemones.
<Corals and anemones are not behaviorally compatible, but I digress....>
I recently discovered that all of my fish have white spots.  I have tried to catch these fish for the last 2 weeks with no success!  Should I add a few cleaner shrimp?
<I would not, unless you wanted to add them anyhow.>
How can I effectively treat ich without removing the fish?  
<Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you can't.>
I have increased the temperature to 82 degrees,
<Ok>
started feeding gel-Tek medicated fish food
<No harm, I'm sure, but likely no help either>
and have the lights on for 20 hours a day.  
<!! .....Why? Please return these back to a standard photoperiod! By having such an extended day, you are causing more undue stress, which is likely assisting the ich in getting a greater foothold!>
I have done water changes every 3 days and the white spots have significantly improved.
<Mmm, no, my friend. Not improved, just 'waxing and waning' as their populations do.>
Nitrate/Nitrite=0, Ph 8.3, Ammonia=0.  Please HELP>>>
Thanks in advance
<I know you don't want to hear it, but you've got to get the fish out and into a quarantine tank. You cannot effectively treat for ich in your display tank, especially with the invertebrate life that it contains. The solution is to get these fish into quarantine, treat with a copper solution, and allow your display tank to go 'fallow' (fish-free) for at least 6 weeks. This will allow the life cycle of the parasite to complete. Have a read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and the files linked in blue at the top -- these will contain all the information you could need on this procedure and more! -JustinN>

Ich again this is a nightmare! Actually not much of a comedy of numerous, grievous errors- 03/25/07
Hi Bob,
<Sprokop...>
We have a 120 gallon and 75 gallon tank.  My husband and I have tried everything to rid our fish (Sailfin Tang, Koran Angel, Pearlscale Butterfly, two Damsels, Blonde Naso Tang, 3 cleaner Wrasses,
<Inappropriate stock>
Yellow Tang, baby Banded Cat Shark
<No space listed large enough...>
and a Lionfish) of Ich.  We started out with the Kick Ich,
<Worthless>
which did absolutely nothing, we then treated them (all but the Lionfish and Banded Cat Shark) with Organicure separating them in several tanks and leaving the 75 gallon main tank fallow.
<Yikes... I would not expose any of these fishes to Formalin...>
  We left the Lionfish and shark in the 120 gallon,
<Mistake>
as they seemed very healthy and we did not have any place to put them until the other fish were treated.  We treated them for 14 days and left the main 75 gallon tank fallow for 3 weeks.
<Not long enough>
  Two days after returning them to the 75 gallon tank, the Ich showed up again.
<... it never left>
After many conversations with fish store owners and Internet research we learned that this was not long enough to get rid of the Ich
<Yep>
and in the mean time we have lost 3 wrasses,
<...>
the shark
<...>
and a Yellow Tang.  This time we moved them to a 55 gallon bare tank as we had problems with the Nitrites and Ammonia levels spiking in the smaller tanks and treated them with SeaCure for one month,
<Too long>
closely monitoring the copper level to maintain the levels at .20 with a copper testing kit (Red Sea kit)
<Ah, good>
loaned to us by our local fish store owner.  After 4 days the tank seemed to maintain the proper copper level and I did not have to add anymore.
<...?>
  This seemed strange to me as the directions stated that I would have to add copper daily during the treatment.  
<Yes>
The local fish store owner stated that we were lucky that this does not happen very often.  I was skeptical so I tested the copper with the Instant Ocean FasTest kit to double check and it also read the same.  Anyway,  I continued to check the copper levels and the fish remained in the 55 gallon bare copper treated tank for 28 days.  The main 75 gallon tank sat fallow for 5 1/2 weeks.  It had been at least 3 weeks since I had seen any signs of Ich; therefore, 2 days ago we returned the fish to the main tank.  You can imagine how upset I was to return home this evening to find the Sailfin Tang has white spots on his tail again.  We have tested all of the levels in the main tank and everything is pretty good, PH 8.0 (little low, but this tank has been like this for years), Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates below 20, Temp 76-78. What are we doing wrong?
<I think the previous tests... were fallacious>
Also, the local fish store owner stated that we could treat our Lionfish with copper, which is against everything that I have heard,
<Can... should be on the lower end of efficacious concentration... 0.20 ppm. should be fine>
however we do not know what else to do.  We put him in the SeaCure copper
<I would not use "free" copper sulfate (in general for hobbyists), but a chelated copper product...>
2 days ago and he is refusing to eat.  He does not appear to be stressed but he is usually a good eater (about 10 inches long).  I am so discouraged I am ready to give up the hobby.
<Are you finally ready to read?>
In 6 years we have never had a fish sick now I can't seem to get them well.
<Where did the Crypt originated? From a non-quarantined specimen?>
  Any help would be greatly appreciated and I apologize for the lengthy email.  Please note that all of the fish have always been very healthy eaters (Omega One flakes with Garlic, frozen Mysis shrimp and green marine algae sheets) and still continue to eat
well.  The Lionfish usually eats frozen Silversides.
<Insufficient>
  Thanks.
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Third tray down... on Cryptocaryoniasis... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich again this is a nightmare! Actually not much of a comedy of numerous, grievous errors  03/25/07
Thank you for your quick response.  What did you mean that our fish our inappropriately stocked?
<... the Koran, Shark, Naso... all need more room than the largest tank you list...>
  They all get along great,
<...>
which fish are not supposed to be together?
<Please read on WWM re each species listed...>
Please keep in mind that these fish were divided between a 75 and 120 gallon tank.  
Regarding the Ich, yes we made the mistake of adding a new fish without quarantining him first.
<Ah, yes...>
  I read your link and I previously read it this last time that I treated them.  The problem is I need to know exactly what products to use.
<Posted...>
  Every fish store I have talked to has given me different instructions.
<...>
  I trust you, that is why I came to you for advice.  What specific brand of chelated copper is the best to use and what copper test kit is accurate for this type of copper?
<Please read...>
  Both the Red Sea Kit and the Instant Ocean FasTest kit showed that the copper was at .20 even after I quit adding the copper and I was testing the tank twice a day. I did not want to add too much so that is why I called the local fish store who told me that sometimes the copper would just maintain.
<Not non-chelated... for long, no>
I figured that this was inaccurate.  Considering the long amount of time that these fish have been exposed to chemicals and moved several times, should I still start the treatment over?
<I would, yes>
I do not want to lose any more fish.  Also, we have tried to get our lionfish to eat other foods, the only thing he will eat is silversides. Any suggestions?
Thank you
<All archived... please learn to/use the search tool, indices on WWM... Don't write... READ. Bob Fenner> Ich Woes, Lack of Reading - 3/24/07
We just found out that we have ich in our 55 gal tank.  
<I'm sorry to hear that.>
We only have two fish in the tank a powder blue tank and a 6 lined wrasse.   
<The powder blue tang is often referred to as an ich magnet due to its proficiency in contracting this parasite. Further, your tank is not appropriate for the sustained life of this fish -- 90 gallon minimum for tangs, they need a lot of rock to forage, and a lot of room to swim. Though a 55 gallon aquarium may seem 'big' in your living room, by marine aquarium standards, this is on the small side.>
We also have lots of corals and invertebrates.  I need to know what I should do.  
<Quarantine all new acquisitions, requarantine your current acquisitions, and follow a treatment regimen as we have posted several times here at WetWebMedia. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and all the files linked in blue.>
We've raised the temp in the tank to 79 to help let it run the course.  
<It will not simply 'run its course' here. The visible form of the parasite is only one form of the creature, and while it may not be visible, it will still be in your tank.>
A friend told me to do that, but to contact you to see what products that people have
been using that have helped.  Please help advise what we should do.  Thank
you
<What you should do, is get to reading! Much to understand here, too much to put into a single email, especially when the information is already abundantly available to you. See the Google bar at the bottom of the front page? It is your friend -- most questions have been asked at least once before. -JustinN>
Nikk Joiner

Re: Ich Woes, Lack of Reading - 3/25/07
Thank you for replying so fast.  I had Googled the topic, but the information I was looking for wasn't coming up.  I also know that my Powder Blue Tang is in a tank that is to small for him.  My husband came home with him before he check on size and tank requirements.  So for now too late.  
Thank you for your help
<Its never too late, my friend! Conscientious aquarium keeping is a virtue, and part of that is knowing when a mistake has been made and further correcting the issue. To take the Laissez-faire attitude is to perpetuate the problems that plague our hobby: supporting companies with false promises, supporting wild site collectors who use poor methods, supporting a blanket ignorance to the actual requirements of most of our aquatic charges. I'm not accusing you of this here, however, simply trying to point out the crucial nature of making informed choices, and rectifying them when something is slipped. These issues persist because of the capitalistic nature of the world -- put simply, we vote with our dollar. To perpetuate these issues, even on an individual level, is an indirect vote to exacerbate them.  
When I refer to the Google tool, if you notice on the wetwebmedia.com front page, we have one that allows you to search just within our site. This is an incredibly powerful tool, and given the nature of our site, you will be presented with a dearth of information that may not seem relevant. This is largely the intent of our presentation style here -- the theory is that you will discover that much more knowledge around your topic on your way to a specific solution, as most the fluff that is associated around the reply you are searching for, are in some way related. Hope this helps you! -JustinN>  

Just need a little help... Actually, a bunch... re Crypt, self-induced troubles, lack of clarity/useful knowledge  3/10/07
Thank you for your time, I have learned a lot from your site. I have a couple questions I wanted to ask.
I recently had an ick outbreak! I bought a powder blue,
<Not an "easy" species...>
on the way home the bag sprung a leak. When I got home I dripped the fish and released it into the main display.
<... no quarantine? A mistake>
It was ok at first then a couple days later, wala white spots!! A friend gave me a product called "no sick fish" and said try it it s reef safe.
<... see WWM re such "miracle cures"... To me, the only miracle is that people continue to buy them>
A few white spots turned into the entire fish being covered! I immediately set up a QT tank via your site.
<Too late... this isn't a QT, it's a treatment tank... Like Iraq... it's not a war... it's an invasion of a sovereign nation...>
In the QT tank were a lion, puffer, purple tang and saddleback butterfly.
<What?!>
I regret to tell you I lost my purple tang and saddleback. I think I will lose the lion and the puffer appears to be ok. (he started to eat again today) Very hard lesson to learn after having them for 2 years..
<Yes>
I have read your site and I'm a little confused. I hope you can help me here
My main tank has LR, anenomes,
<You're joking... or pulling old Bob the fishman's fins... Multiple species of anemones? No>
and starfish with shells for substrate. While fish are in QT tank.
I understand I have to let the tank run fallow for at least a month. During this time doing regular water changes. Can I add some live sand during this time or do I have to wait the month?
<I'd be waiting...>
I think the sand would be beneficial to the tank? I have approx. 1/2" small shells, would 1/2-1" of sand be good?
<See WWM re... more to your education than simple yes, no's to not-so-simple questions>
I don't want a deep sand bed. Thus being filtered by 2 canisters. I am looking into a wet/dry or sump with a cont. siphon not u-tube.
<... see WWM...>
About the QT tank. I read a HOB filter like a whisper is better than a canister. What would you put in the main tank to seed for a HOB filter?
<Posted>
Mine has the pad and carbon as one unit. Coppersafe for 2 weeks or 21 days?
<Ditto>
I've read both.
<Two weeks is about all the good... IMO>
Ammonia stays at about .50.
<Too high...>
My copper reads .15-.20. Since I needed a QT ASAP, I used an old canister with just bio-max from main tank.
Reading another question, I think I would have been better using the course foam pad from main display here.
<Yes... for a while>
Lastly, the addition of new fish. You recommend a sponge filter, would a whisper be better here?
<Yes>
I could fill a tank with 1/2 main tank water and 1/2 new water and use a whisper with just a pad w/ChemiPure or a pad and carbon pack?
<... keep reading... the carbon will remove the medicant>
Let the new fish reside here for 3-4 weeks to prevent disease. Since I have the QT tank setup for the ick treatment for existing fish, could I add a new fish here?
<What? No>
They have to wait 4 weeks anyway or set up a 2nd one?
<Not IMO... better by far to make sure you have eliminated or greatly reduced the virulence of the Cryptocaryon before attempting any new livestock... a few months...>
I will not put a fish in the main tank again w/o QT... Sad lesson learned.
<Yes... but going to get a bit sadder likely... Read my erstwhile friend... read. Bob Fenner>

Re: Just need a little help... Actually, a bunch... re Crypt, self-induced troubles, lack of clarity/useful knowledge   3/11/07
Thank you for your quick response. The lion & puffer are recovering. They started to eat again today.
<Good>
Yes, no QT was a mistake, I was worried about the broken bag. (bad excuse)
By the way of anenomes, I have a carpet and 3 tube worms. (not sure of correct name here) I apologize for not making my query correct in the terms of hospital & QT tank. I do know the difference, but mis-wrote them.
<No worries... just wanted to be clear... for all>
If using a magnum HOT filter, can I seed the sponge filter that slips around the carbon media basket.
<... won't stay seeded... the copper will kill off the nitrifying bacteria... You're not reading (enough)...>
Using this at first then adding the carbon to absorb the copper medicine after treatment in a hospital tank? My whisper comes with the pad attached to the carbon, I'm not sure what you would seed here. Lastly, in a QT tank (for a new arrival) I would use the seeded sponge filter with carbon at first, then if any signs of disease I would remove the carbon, leaving the sponge and treat accordingly?
<Sounds good>
(I think I have this right). I do read your site, but there are so many F&Q's and articles that when I think I got it, I read something else and am not sure.
<Thank you for this... we must need devise a simpler, more straight-forward presentation... more complete, intuitive... Perhaps more articles of more specificity will help>
Maybe I'm trying to read too much at once. There is a lot to learn from you site and will continue to read. Thanks
<Thank you Dawn. BobF>

If only..  quarantine, Crypt   3/8/07
Greetings Bob and/or Crew Member.
<Hello Brandon here.  Do keep in mind that there are more than just one crew member.>
If I'd just done what I knew I was supposed to do (based largely upon information freely available at WWM) everything would've been fine.
<Sad but heard so often.>
Instead, I was really eager to place my new mandarin into the 125 gal system that I've designed around this particular fish's needs.  In my eagerness, the bad advice from my LFS that mandarins don't get ick due to their toxic slime coat and therefore don't need to be quarantined sounded moderately plausible.  Plausible enough that although my QT was up, running, and ready as it had been for every other swimming thing I've put into the tank, I bypassed it, and dumped the happy healthy looking guy into the display tank.
<This mucus only keeps them from getting eaten.>
For any and all readers of the Daily FAQs....DON'T MAKE THIS MISTAKE.
<Quarantine is something we strongly advocate.>
My Powder Brown Tang is now well and truly infected with ick.  Fortunately, he's still eating and looks otherwise healthy, so I'm hoping I have a chance of making this a not-too-painful reminder of proper quarantine habits.  The mandarin, for what its worth, looks very healthy read: plump, although I have at one time or another observed a single white spot here and there.
<You will wind up removing all of the fish.>
My question is this...I'd like to avoid running copper full time in the QT, so that it can double as a place to put corals etc when not occupied by an incoming fish.  I've made peace with needing to tear down my display in order to get all of the fish removed so as to let the display run fallow, and am hoping that as I remove each fish, I might get the results I'm hoping for by running a freshwater dip treated with copper while en route to the QT for the fallow period.
<I would use Methylene Blue in the dip.  Copper will have to be continually monitored.  Please read here, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm.>
Based upon my review of the ick FAQs, I'm fairly certain that you'll suggest running the copper in the QT, checked twice daily via proper test kit, for 2-4 weeks with an additional 4 weeks in QT without copper.  <Yep.>  I'm just thinking/hoping that the dip may provide the benefits of copper without the prolonged exposure <Nope.> that may have implications for especially the tang's long term health.  Am also confounded by the prospect of providing proper mandarin food in the presence of copper...pretty sure that can't be done, and would result in turning a plump, if infected, mandarin into another deceased mandarin story.  
Perhaps the solution here would be to treat the mandarin as advised on WWM for 2 weeks, then if all is well, find a boarding home for him for the remainder of the fallow period?
<Well this is what I was going to suggest, but since you already have, I guess you know what to do. :^P>  
Although would feel even worse about pawning the parasites off on a friend.
<Treat for two weeks, and then board him with an INFORMED, and willing friend.>
Looking for help in achieving the elusive balance here.
<I hope that this helps.>
Thanks in advance,
<You are welcome, Brandon.>
Sam

No More Ich   3/7/07
Hello,
<Hello Brit,  Brandon here tonight.>
After reading until my eyes burned I've decided to just ask the question that no post seems to cover exactly.
<Try looking here, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm, and here, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm.>
I recently started up a 29 gallon tank and decided to let it cycle using the bacterial additives the LFS sold me and about 10 lbs of live rock with 15 lbs more curing separately.  Everything was going okay and cycling seemed to be nearing completion so I mentioned getting a fish in the next week or more.  While I was away for the weekend my mother thought it would be a nice gesture to purchase me a Yellow Tang (which isn't really right for my aquarium size) <Awwww, Mom!> but when I came home the first thing I notice is that was completely covered with ich plus what seemed to be the beginnings of HLLE.  <Sorry to hear this.>  I immediately called the LFS and the only thing they could do is confirm the diseases tell me how to treat the fish, which died shortly after being moved into my 10 gal QT with similar properties of my main tank.  <A sad but common fate.>  Besides letting it go fallow for a month I decided to just strip it down and start anew.  Because I purchased (was SOLD) enough sand and salt to fill triple of my tank it seemed
the best route (which may be a bit drastic but I'm very paranoid and I do not want ANY chance of it taking over my small system).  <If you went fallow for a month then the protozoan's life cycle should have been sufficiently disrupted.>  I thoroughly cleaned out the tank with alternating hot/cold tap water (no soap) along with the filter parts, heater, hood...just about EVERYTHING and disposed of the sand.  The question is though, can the ich still be in the tank in a sort of dormant state (The LFS suggested it could but I can't really see how it would survive without water), or in my cleaned BioWheels?  <They can't live in fresh water.>  I've also completely dried everything and recleaned and dried it again. Should I let it stay this way for a few days or would it still survive after this?
<Most likely it is gone.  When you set the tank back up, please do follow appropriate quarantine procedures, and this most likely can be avoided in the future.>
Thanks,
<You are welcome, Brandon.>
Brittani

Question of treatment of Ich   3/7/07
Hi All,
<Hello Michael, Brandon here tonight.>
Thank you for providing such a great service to your fellow saltwater enthusiasts. With your help I have been very successful so far. I promise I quarantine everything before it goes into my tank.
<Thank you for the kind words, and good job on QT.>
I recently did a move of my aquarium. Even though I tried to be careful and planned everything out ahead of time, <This was a good idea.> after the move my hippo tang started showing signs of ich. I've removed him to a quarantine tank and began treating it with Mardel Coppersafe. <Using Copper can be shaky.> He seems to be making a recovery. <This is only the beginning I'm afraid.  All that you have done is kill the trophonts on the one fish.  They are most likely tomites in the main tank.>
Now for my question, I have a pair of clowns, a dwarf angel and a purple firefish still in the tank that appear to have made the move without issue.
Should they be removed and proactively treated to break the cycle of infestation?
<I would definitely remove them, as far as a preemptive strike?  Relax, you are not Bush, and Cryptocaryon is not Iraq.  I would just watch the fish for signs of stress/outbreak from a QT tank.  The main system will need to run fallow for about a month, as this breaks the protozoan's life cycle.  Afterwards, all should be well.  Please read here for further information, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm, as well as here, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm.>
I eager await your response.
<I hope this information helps.>
Regards,
<Good luck with this, Brandon.>
Michael

SW, ich   3/4/07
Hi,
<Hello Jesse, Brandon with you today.>
I had emailed a couple of times about ich in my tank.  I began to treat the fish with Copper Power almost two weeks ago <For Copper treatment I implore you to read here, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm> (I was told by the LFS that it was a 2 ½ week treatment). The trigger has never showed a sign of ich. The Yellow tang has not either, but when I turn off the lights for the night, in the morning he has a brown spot over the white line along his side. <I have noticed this coloration before, and I would assume that it is some sort of protective measure to avoid predation at night.> It quickly vanishes when the lights are turned back on and it had just started happening a week ago.  Is it due to the copper and why is it only visible after he is in the dark? <Please see above.>  I unfortunately lost my puffer who introduced the ich and had it the worst. <Sorry to hear that.>  My two lions are doing better and there has not been an increase in spots for over 2 weeks.  <Glad to hear it, but please do read the article mentioned above.>  The cysts look like they ruptured and there are small smears on the tail fins where the cysts once were.  Is this normal?  <Could be stress, or abrasions.  Allow for some time to heal.>  The cysts have not returned but the white smears as best I can describe them have remained the same.  Parameters= ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 10, temp. 80 and gravity 1.016.  Is the parasite nearing the end of the cycle?  <Hard to tell.  This can take quite some time.  Over a month for sure.>  The smears are confusing to me especially since the white salt like cysts have not returned.  I hope you guys and gals can shed some light on the situation.
<Please see above.>
Thank you,
<You are welcome.  Brandon>
Jesse

Marine Ich 2/21/07
Ok, here we go. I've got a bad case of ich. <You or your fish?>  White spots, scratching, all the tell signs of ich. I have two percula clowns and a raccoon butterfly fish. My main display tank is a 75 gallon fish only, 60 lbs live rock. I've got a 10 gallon quarantine tank with a simple power filter and small heater. <Might be too small depending on the size of the butterfly.> I also put a piece of limestone for cover for the fish. <Remove this, will absorb most medications making proper dosing difficult at best.  Replace with PVC or other inert materials.> Is this going to be enough room for all the fish or will I have to sacrifice one for the whole? <Or could go get a larger QT if needed, can be done cheaply with food grade Rubbermaid containers and a sponge filter.>  If so, how frequent should my water changes (on the quarantine tank) be to keep them healthy, once a week, twice a week? 25 or 50 percent? <May be daily, just need to monitor the parameters and change when needed.  25% or so depending on what the tests indicate.>  I want to treat the main tank without using copper I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get rid of this RIGHT the first time. What do I need to do? I know I'm going to need to leave the tank fallow for 4-6 weeks. Do I need to treat with invert-safe ich cure or just leave it alone?  <No such thing as invert safe effective treatment that I have ever seen, just empty of fish life is enough, no host = no parasite.> Also do I keep doing 15 percent water changes every other week? <Would be best.>  As far as temperature while the tank is empty, what should it be?  <Raising it will help, depending on what non-fish life remains.  Otherwise just leave it as is.> Should I lower my salinity while the tank is empty? <Not necessary and detrimental to your LR.> Please help!! I'm fairly new to the hobby and I LOVE your site, it makes asking the LFS obsolete.  
Thank you soooo much, Jared Hawkins
<Please give these a read for more
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm .>
<Chris>

Help!!!! Protracted battle with Crypt  2/19/07
Hey guys (and gals),
<Brandon>
Ok to give you a bit of background, I have asked a few questions before that were answered by Bob. It was concerning Ich in my tan. Even after a QT period of 5 weeks for all my fish before adding them to my tank, I still got ich in somehow that showed up about two weeks after the fish were settled.
<No fun>
Bob advised to leave the fish in the tank and maybe the fish would fight it off themselves.
<Sometimes the best approach (e.g. Iraq)...>
The fish were doing pretty good for about 5 weeks and then we started losing the war. We fought it with a few cleaner shrimp, UV, Metronidazole, and anything else we could throw at it. We kept it at bay but it just started to be too much for the fish to fight off. It is time to call in the big guns. We have FW dipped all the fish last night
<Moving them subsequently?>
and are fixing to go the last route of Copper in our hospital tank. I have a few questions for ya'll if you do not mind:
1) Our Yellow tang is showing some peeling skin on his body. About two patches that go from gills to tail on each side. I do not know if this is from scratching and I just did not see it in the main tank or maybe he did not like the FW dip (Can not see why it would have caused that even though I did for about 20 min).
As any rate, should I be worried about secondary infection and will the copper hurt him if he does have a flesh wound?
<Not much to do here... likely just overall stress, exposure...>
Will the Metronidazole help take care of any infection if we add it with the copper?
<No, it will not... and is very toxic in repeated application... Don't take it, or administer it further>
Would Meth Blue in the QT water help?
<Yes... calms the animals due to subdued lighting, helps with oxygen transport...>
2) Our stocking list includes: 1 Yellow tang, 1 Flame angel, 1 Blue-green Chromis, 1 Royal Gramma, 2 False Perc Clowns, and 1 Neon Goby... Should I worry about the reaction for the yellow tang or the Flame to copper?
<... see WWM re>
I have never dosed copper before and am thinking it is going to be worse for my nerves then the first time I did a FW dip?
<Maybe>
All fish appear to be healthy now (except for the Tang). A few spots survived the dip
<Try adding formalin (and aeration) next time...>
but I can not stand our fish suffering another day with this illness. I do not like the thought of using copper and am wary of the harmful effects of it. Is there another way to go now that I have them out of the main tank?
<All possibilities are posted, archived... have recently gone through and re-sorted... See WWM re Crypt, these species...>
I hate to do anything that not work and be back a square one again.
Thanks in advance for all your help. And I refer everyone I know to your wisdom. I look forward to meeting Bob in Atlanta in May!
Brandon
<Oh! See you then, there. Bob Fenner>

Starting over cuz of ich!  2/18/07
I've come back to the experts again because quite frankly I don't trust anyone else's advice! You guys are the absolute BEST!!!!!! I am so sick of the LFS just trying to make a buck off people and not giving a rats butt about what's best for their customer's tank or their fish.  Well. that being said. I'm wanting to start over my 55 gal saltwater.  I searched WWM and didn't see a SOP for this. I only have a clown and a firefish, a few inverts, and no liverock.  I've been fighting ich for 4months utilizing QTs (for 1 mo), remedies, hypo to no avail. I now have the clown and the fire back in a QT treating with copper.  I'm leaving them in there for 8 weeks. But in the meantime I want to tear down the display tank, sterilize and make some changes. Here's what I want to do and I need your expert opinion:
  To sterilize: Take out inverts and put in a QT of sorts (Rubbermaid). Take out all 55 gal saltwater, run with fresh water at a super high temp for a long period of time (how long I don't know...can you help?) or should I use some sort of a bleach solution?
  Replace crushed coral with sand: Take out coral with saltwater.
  After suggested amount of time running freshwater to kill the little buggers replace with new saltwater.  Add live sand. I want to add liverock. Let that cycle in the tank.
  All said I plan on this taking at least 8 weeks. Can you add anything I left out?  Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.  Thank you.  Jennifer
<<Jennifer:  I think your frustration is leading you to drastic measures which may be unnecessary.  First, ich needs a host fish to reproduce.  If you take you fish out of the main tank for at least 6 weeks, your main tank should be ich free.  Several years ago, I did this and it worked.  My favorite ich treatment is to slowly lower the SG in your QT to 1.009 (as measured with a refractometer), leave it there for 6 weeks, and then slowly raise it to your main tank SG.  Afterwards, you can transfer your fish back to the main tank.  Now, if you want to do some rearranging or replace the substrate while the fish are in QT, that's fine.  However, I don't think you have to do it to address the ich problem.  Best of luck, Roy>>

Re: Starting over cuz of ich!  2/18/07
Thanks Roy!  You are right...I'm totally frustrated with ich...I want this beautiful reef tank and all I have is an empty one. Anyway, what do you think about taking out the inverts to replace the crushed coral with the sand? I'm afraid of the nitrate spike. I'm not sure to go with live sand or not but I'll do research on the WWM site. I figured I'll take out the coral replace with sand, add the live rock, let cycle, and add back inverts. By then 8 weeks should have gone by and we'll see where we stand on the ich. I hate to replace the water in the DT because I finally got the quality perfect and I have green algae growing instead of diatoms.  I'm running hyposalinity in the QT like last time, which worked on the fish, but apparently was not a long enough time out of the main DT.  Thank you for saving me alot of work...Jennifer
<<Jennifer:  You can switch from crushed coral to sand if you like.  I once had a tank that had crushed coral and I couldn't get the nitrates down.  I assumed I needed to swap out the crushed coral and it would solve my problem.  Though I like the look of sand better than crushed coral, my nitrates didn't change.  That tank doesn't have a protein skimmer or a sump with macroalgae and nitrates usually fluctuate between 15 and 25.  I later found that using protein skimmers and Chaetomorpha alga in the sump was the only way I could get a tank to have zero nitrates.  If you use new live rock, your tank will likely go through a cycle again.  Depending on what sort of inverts you have, they might not be able to handle the cycle.  If you can find used live rock from the tank of another reefer, you won't have a cycle.  However, you should closely examine the used rock as it could have non desirable critters like Aiptasia anemones.  Overall, I like to buy used live rock as it generally comes full of life and interesting critters.  In my area, used live rock can often be purchased for US$2 to US$3 per pound.  Best of luck, Roy>>

Battling Ich  - 02/17/2007
Hello,
<Hi>
I do not know what to do... I emailed yesterday about my puffer with ich that I had been fresh water dipping with methylene blue to no avail.  My gravity is 1.016 and I am raising my temperature to 80-82. <SG is not low enough to treat ich but is causing additional stress, would slowly bring back to normal SG.> This morning I woke up to find spots on my two lions as well. My Huma Huma and yellow tang are doing fine for now, but I fear it wont be long. <Most likely infected but not symptomatic.> I have a 220g tank and only about 40lbs of live rock/160lbs live sand.  I fear the only option is to treat the whole tank.  <Not really an option, almost impossible to dose correctly with absorbent LR and sand.>  I obviously do not have quarantine, especially one of the size needed to house these fish.  <Time for a makeshift one or two, large food-grade Tupperware works well for this.>  I am sick about the whole issue.  I have read mixed info on copper usage and formalin treatments. <Copper is tough on the tangs and puffers, formalin is tough on everything, I would use hypo here, 1.011 SG.> In addition, I have 4 hermits and a small cc starfish.  <None of the treatments are compatible with these.>   Will the treatments kill these guys off? <Yes>  Please help.  I have read and read and spent hours in my LFS to receive no tangible answer.
Thanks,
Jesse
<Need to figure out a way to QT these fish, anything added to the tank will either be overly toxic or ineffective.  No good solution here I'm afraid without removing the fish.  If you have not already please check out these...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >
<Chris>

Possibility of Ich - 02/09/2007
Hey guys,
<Hi>
   First off I would like to apologize for the lack of question marks in my email, but I have an English/French keyboard and do not quite know how to use it yet.
<No worries.>
I hope this email finds all you guys and gals are doing well.
<Freezing but otherwise good.>  
So about five days ago I purchased a neon goby.  It appeared that he had a mild case of Ich on the second day in my new tank.  I did not dip him prior to being placed in his new home (but I will start doing this, this day forward).
<QTing is more important than dipping.>
My puzzlement begins about three days ago, his spots disappeared and have not returned, could he have fought off the disease
<Normal life cycle of the parasite, will return.>  
If so what should my course of action be now.....  could his ich like spots be something else (stress related perhaps).....  any information would be greatly appreciated.  By the way, he is the only thing in my tank other than a bunch of live rock.  Thanks again for all the help, it is greatly appreciated.
Take care all and I look forward to hearing from you.
Scuba Steve
<Give these a read, should set you on the right path.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .>
<Chris>

Re: Adding live rock to cycled tank...Now with ich...   2/3/07
Hey Mich..
<Hi there Jennifer!>
told ya you'd be hearing from me again...I have another problem.. well not a new one...ich.
<uuuhhhhggg!>
Don't know if I mentioned it or not but when I started this nonsense all 3 of my fish came down with ich.
<Not good!>
I fought it for a while in the DT but as usual ich was winning.
So I took the clown, damsel and fire out of the DT and put into a 10 gal QT.  I had originally treated with copper which seemed to take care of the ich but continued to treat with hyposalinity and raised temp.
<Continual copper treatment and closely monitoring concentrations in the QT is important.>
Did lose the damsel but the other 2 looked great.  
<Sorry for your loss.>
In the DT I ran fallow for 4 weeks with frequent water changes siphoning the bottom, lowered the salinity to 1.017 and raised the temp.
<Siphoning is not essential.  Elimination of any fish host is.  This is how you interrupt the live cycle of this parasite.  Running the tank fallow for at least a month is most important.>
I put the 2 fish in on Thurs and today they have ich. HELP!!! I'm to the point of taking everything out of the DT and cleaning it out and starting over.
<DT is most likely not the issue here.  Allowing the DT to go fallow for at least a month will eliminate the ich from the DT.  The fish were likely still hosting the parasite, which was reintroduced into the display.  
Any advice?
<Yes, lots of reading:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptcures1.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marparasitcurefaqs.htm
Thanks!!
<You're welcome!  -Mich>
Jennifer
<Hello again Jennifer!>
Whew!  I feel better about taking the next step!
<Very good!>
Thanks again for your expertise!  
<No expert here, just a continual student.>
I'm sure you'll be hearing from me soon...next project is installing a new filter.  
<Good Luck!>
Thanks Mich!  
<You're welcome Jennifer!  -Mich>
Jennifer

Re: Adding Live Rock to Cycled Tank...Now With Ich...   2/4/07
Hey Mich!
<Hi there Jennifer!>
Sorry but I think I left out some things (we're dealing w/ the tornadoes so things are a little hairy right now),
<Yes I heard, 20 lives lost.  Very sad.>
anyway, I had the fish in the QT for over a month and they only showed signs of ich for the first week. After that no signs at all.
<Yes, please read, can be a normal part of the lifecycle with ich.>
I did water changes nearly every day.. had to for water quality.
<Yes, I understand.  All the more important to continue with the copper treatment and monitoring of copper levels with appropriate test kit.>
The DT was fallow for the entire time (over 4 weeks). So is it possible the fish were still carrying this parasite around in them even though they showed no signs in the QT they decided to break out in the DT....man...that just ticks me off!  
<Yes, is frustrating.  Read more and you'll understand.>
I was thinking of changing out the crushed coral for live sand perhaps this is the time to do it?  What do you think?  
<I think I would concentrate on treating the ich.  Is a more urgent, pressing matter.>
Thanks for the quick replies!!
<You're welcome!  -Mich>
Jennifer

Re: Adding Live Rock to Cycled Tank...Now With Ich...   2/4/07
Should I go back to a QT with water from DT for biological purposes and treat with copper?
<No.  The copper will kill most of the biological beneficial life.  Aged new water would be preferable.>   
Then how long should I run DT fallow?
<Four to six weeks as long as there is no cross contamination between the DT and the QT tank via nets, turkey basters, testing equipment etc.>
From what I was reading you can run the DT fallow for months and months with no guarantees.
<Incorrect.  The parasite needs a fish host to continue to reproduce.  
This paragraph by Scott Fellman can be found on the first link I provided to you.  I think it explains the life cycle quite well.   http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
"The ugly little causative parasite of Marine Ich is the ciliated protozoan, Cryptocaryon irritans (even the name sounds bad!). The parasite has a rather simple life cycle, and has several different phases during its life cycle when it is especially vulnerable. The parasite, in its free swimming phase, locates a suitable host (i.e.; your fishes!), and burrows into the host’s skin, gills, and fins, where it feeds on the fluids contained within the host’s body. For protection, the parasites form a thin cyst over themselves. The cysts, which look a lot like grains of salt, are usually the aquarist’s first signal that the fish has contracted the disease. The encysted parasites, called trophonts, remain attached to their fish host for approximately 7 days until the protozoan reaches maturity. Next, the protozoan leaves the host and enters the water column as single cell, known as a tomont. The tomont (or cyst) can swim for up to 18 hours before it attaches to a suitable substrate, such as sand, rock, or the aquarium itself. Then, the cells within the cysts divide, and form up to 200 "daughter" parasites, or tomites. This process, which takes anywhere from 4 to 28 days, results in a new generation of free swimming protozoans called theronts. The theronts must then locate and inhabit a suitable host to complete their life cycle within several hours, or they will die. It is during this free swimming phase that the Cryptocaryon parasite is most vulnerable, and this is the part of the life cycle when Marine Ich can be eradicated with a relatively high degree of success.">
Can I still go ahead with my plans for live rock in the DT?
<Yes.>
Thank you for your patience...hope I'm not driving you as nuts as this tank is driving me!!! Haha!
<You're welcome.  Nah, I'm here to help.  -Mich>
Jennifer

Re: Adding Live Rock to Cycled Tank...Now With Ich...  2/5/07
Hi Mich!  
<Hi Jennifer!>
I've read so much on ich my head is absolutely hurting!  
<So sorry, but is important to read/comprehend.>
Ok, here is the plan I am thinking of putting into action. Please modify as needed: Set up 10 gal QT w/ 50% new water and 50% aged water from DT. I have a sponge filter that I placed in the filter in the DT for bio purposes for just such an occasion. I'll put that in the HOT filter on the QT. Do water changes every day or no more than every other day depending on water params. Run the DT fallow for 6 weeks. Sound ok?
<I would not use water from the DT aside from the initial set up.  I think it is better to avoid any potential cross contamination.  Everything else should be OK>
The fish only have a couple of spots each but I know this is the calm before the storm...been there before!
<Experience is an excellent teacher.>
Thank you!  Jennifer
<Welcome!  -Mich>

Re: Ich problem   1/31/07
Hello again crew,
<Brandon>
I wanted to give you an update to a problem Bob helped me with (prior e-mails below) and get some follow up advice if I could. It has been 2 weeks since I received advice (three weeks since the first outbreak) and I still have Ich. No surprise, the bug just does not want to go away! Per the advice of Bob, I have let the fish try to fight it themselves. I have read a lot written (mainly by Steven Pro) about developing natural immunity to Ich. My tank is stocked like this; 1 Flame Angel, 1 Yellow Tang, 2 Perc Clowns, 1 Royal Gramma, 2 Blue Green Chromis, 3 Peppermint shrimp, 2 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, 1 Camel Shrimp, 1 "Monkey" Shrimp, and various crabs. The cleaners have not started cleaning yet but they have just been in the tank for a few day so I am hoping that they will fall into that roll soon and the fish will let them do it.
<Yes, should...>
The outbreak is still "minor". I have not seen any more then three trophonts on any fish at a time but all have come down with it at one point and time (I say this believing that the chromis have but it is hard to tell with their iridescent color). The fish are not scratching and are eating normal . I have kept the temp of the tank and the SG at 80 and 1.025 respectively because of the inverts.
<Good>
I hate my fish being sick but I do not know if it is time to go the dangerous route of CU treatments. To me, formalin and CU treatments are a last resort.
<You are wise here>
It is kind of like chopping off your arm because you have a finger infection. You know you might need to if it spreads but there are other things you can do in the meantime. I have thought about adding a Coralife Turbo-Twist UV 3X on the 55Gallon to see if that will help,
<Would, nominally...>
but I do not want to spend the money on it if it is going to be a placebo. Can ya'll give me some more direction here?
<Not much more to add... generally>
I am fixing to spend tomorrow changing my aquascaping and if it is time to pull out the fish, that would be the time!
Thanks again for all your help, both in the past, now and I am sure in the future,
Brandon
<How to sum up here... You are still at the/a crossroads of choosing treatment moda... I would carry on here myself as you have thus far... Bob Fenner>

Ich or Stress? Perhaps both   1/19/07
Hello,
<Hi there>
After moving we recently decided to start adding fish to the 75 gallon saltwater tank that we brought (with the cycled water) from the old house.  It has only had inverts (chocolate starfish, arrow crab and urchin) in it for several months.  I recently bought my husband a Pearlscale Butterfly to add to the 75 gallon tank as I knew he wanted to build our tanks back up.  As he was the only fish and we did not have the QT tank set up yet we just put him in the show tank.
<Mmm, would have at least passed this and other fishes through a prophylactic dip/bath enroute...>
He seemed very healthy, eating great, no spots.  We then added other fish as we have since set up our 120 gallon tank and planned to transfer some of the new fish (Yellow Tang, Blonde Naso Tang, Juvenile Koran Angel and a Lionfish) once it was cycled.   We noticed that the Butterfly fish started scratching like crazy off of all the coral and decorations.  We have never had any problems in 5 years with any kind of Parasites or diseases; therefore, not very knowledgeable.  I know we should have put the fish in the QT; however, what is done is done.  We have since given the Butterfly two freshwater dips.
<What about the infested system?>
I have not seen any signs of scratching or anything else on the other fish.  The last bath was given two days ago and the Butterfly has completely stopped scratching.  They all appear very healthy great color, no white spots and eating very well.
<All have likely reached/attained a sort of balance... can tip to the virulence side with a shift to detrimental conditions, influence... OR the addition of a susceptible fish host... Do think about this last>
Please note that the Butterfly never had any discoloration or white spots, just scratching, we have had him approximately three weeks.  Today I went to the fish store where I bought the Butterfly to purchase some Damsels to add to the 120 to cycle the tank and noticed that many of the fish at the store had white cottage cheese looking spots on them and they were scratching like crazy.
<Maybe Lymphocystis... plus...>
I asked the owner about this and he informed me that several weeks ago they received a shipment of fish that had Ich and that all of their tanks were connected; therefore, all of the fish had been affected.  He stated that they were all being treated with copper and told me not to mix their water with mine.
<...>
  I was upset because the Butterfly that I have been worried about came from this batch. Obviously I did not purchase any more fish from them.  We are just sick and do not no what to do.  I have spent hours researching the different methods of treating Ich and all the diseases and parasites that can cause scratching. As none of our other fish have developed white spots or any signs of disease is it possible that the Butterfly was just stressed from poor water conditions at the store or do you think we need to treat all of our fish.
<Mmm... a decision ever-awaits you... to continue as now... and hope for a lack of "trigger", avoiding introducing much in the way of any new fish/es (or possibly trying to immunize them via moving water from the infested system to a quarantine system...), or removing all, treating, having the infested system go fallow... Which will you choose?>
Which leads me to another question, I have read that Lionfish are very hard to treat and cannot tolerate Copper.  
<Are more sensitive>
If you feel they are in trouble what do we do with the Lionfish?
<Would best be treated elsewhere... by other means than the other fishes... my choice? Formalin dips, moves...>
  I have read that the best and safest way to treat is to use a QT tank and do a 50% water change every day for 2 weeks and then leave the fish in the QT for an additional month to assure that everything has left the show tank as well as the fish.   Any suggestions on what we should do?
<Yes... read... and consider the two broad choices... If it were me, mine, listening to what you have system and livestock-wise, I'd opt for not treating, moving the fishes... and eschew the introduction of other specimens. Have recently (this last week) sub-divided, cleaned-up the Crypt FAQs... Please see here: Ich or Stress?
about three page scrolls down. Bob Fenner>

School of Hard Knocks 1/17/07
Dear WWM Crew,
<Hi>
I wanted to confirm what I thought I had read I hope this Makes it to the FAQ’s as I’m really not sure what to do, or if I even need to do something right away. <We post all.>  Regardless of whether you get an opportunity to respond, what a great site with tons of useful information (just hoping to confirm information I've gathered". <Thanks, we try to answer all as quickly as possible, although sometimes we get a little overloaded.>
I’m new to the hobby, 60 G tank, with roughly 45 lbs of Live Rock, Crushed coral substrate, 75 G capacity Wet Dry, & a Protein Skimmer. <Ok> I started out nice and slow and let everything cycle naturally for 6 weeks prior to adding 2 damsels in early November. <Good> To make a long story short that was the last thing I probably did correctly. <Learning.>  Since then, I have made numerous egregious errors, compounded by the fact that I knew that what I was doing was wrong.  It would seem that sometimes the school of hard knocks is the only way some of us will learn. <Sad truth, and include me in that group.>  My lack of quarantining along with overcrowding the tank, and adding fish too quickly undoubtedly caused the Ich in my tank.  <To quote GI Joe "Knowing is half the battle."  So you are half way there.>
This weekend while I was away I lost a number of fish. <Sorry.> I tried to treat the Ich in the display prior to my long weekend by supplementing the food with garlic, Fresh water dips, water changes, a cleaner shrimp and Kordon’s Ich – Attack (reef friendly of course). <Of course.> Needless to say, none of this worked. <A learning experience I'm sure.>  Upon my return 3 fish were dead, another seems to have committed suicide in an effort to avoid the parasites by somehow jumping out of the tank (not quite sure how this was accomplished given our the tank has a hood!!!!) and 2 more died yesterday. <Boy, that was quite a weekend.> Did a 20% water change immediately upon my return, after removing the dead fish.  Water parameters are okay, not perfect, but tolerable.  I don’t have them in front of me. <Ok> I know I need to increase the water quality. So, here is my question: with 2 fish left, should I pull them out and quarantine them while allowing the display tank go fallow for 4-8 weeks even though there are, as yet, no visible signs of Ich on them (lunare wrasse  4-5” and a blue devil damsel)? <Yes, and I would treat as if they were showing signs of ich, chances of them being unaffected are pretty slim.>  And if so, for how long, I’ve seen variations of the time frame above in various WWM responses. <Four weeks is ok, six or eight much better.  At this point I'm going to encourage you to go with the "much better" option.>  My guess is that longer is better as time and again in my reading it states patience is rewarded. <Patience is everything here.>   If quarantined, should I treat them (with Cupramine) even though there are no signs of Ich on them, yet? <I would.>  Fresh water dip with Methylene Blue prior to adding to the quarantine tank? <Mostly unnecessary in this case.>  Information on your website leads me to believe I should not treat fish if there are no visible symptoms. <Usually I agree with this, but since they are coming from an environment with confirmed Ich I would treat here.>  I’m a bit concerned I may kill the two fish I have left in the quarantine tank.  
<Not with a little effort which you now seem will to do.>
Quarantine tank is  20G. with whisper filter, and heater, set up last night. <Remove the carbon before treating.> I am planning on putting several pieces of PVC in today or tomorrow to give the fish some cover and an some airstones to aerate the water. <Good.>  I used new water since I did not want to introduce Ich to the quarantine/hospital tank by adding display tank water.  (same reason I did not add substrate to start it cycling)  Added Bio Enzyme to help it cycle (Directions indicate 1/8 teaspoon everyday for 25 g., used slightly less, for one week) – could not find Bio-Spira in any of several LFSs. <Not familiar with Bio Enzyme, if a dry product don't bother.  Either way the copper will probably do a number on the biofiltration anyways.  Water changes daily are your friends here.>  I am concerned that the tank will not have cycled properly prior to adding my 2 fish and ammonia or nitrites may get them if the Ich doesn’t. <Start making up new SW now, have ready for very frequent changes.>  Also, I know I’ll need to keep a proper quarantine tank in order to slowly restock , without over crowding, my display tank, does the set-up described above seem adequate?  <Yes, at some point after the main tank is ich free run a small sponge filter or other filter media to move to the QT when you are ready for new fish.>
Brian
<Everyone learns differently, unfortunately some of us (present company included) have to do it the hard way.  The important thing is to not make the same mistakes again, and I get the impression that won't be happening.  Once you get a little more experience and comfort with the hobby maybe you will join us in teaching others from our mistakes.>
<Chris>

"Ichy" situation!   1/12/06
<Sorry for the bump back, Kimberly. This email is to ensure that you receive the response to your query. Your message arrived to our servers in an unreadable format, for reasons known only to the Internet gods. I am relaying the message back to the crew in a readable format. Original email address is XXXX. Original message as follows. -JustinN>
Hi all!  I sure hope you can help me out.  
<Me too>
I have a 90 gal FOWLR with approx. 90 pounds of LR.  All levels are 0 except for nitrate which runs about 5 to 10 consistently, PH 8.2 and salinity 1.021.  I have one Volitans lionfish, one spotted Hawkfish, and one spiny puffer.  All were quarantined prior to be introduced with the puffer being added last.  To make a long story short, I originally had two maroon clowns in this tank (before puffer plans) until the Hawkfish made a meal out of one (did not know this was a natural predator/pray situation at the time and the LFS said that the maroons were aggressive enough for this tank).
<Mmm, depends on starting sizes... but would likely have gotten along if all were about the same...>
Anyway.. I immediately went out and purchased another tank for the remaining maroon and took some LR from the original tank to add to the new system (this tank along with the remaining maroon are doing great and this has now subsequently become a smaller "reef tank")  :-)   Because of this situation I needed to get more LR back into the original 90 gal.  Now two weeks later my lion has Ich and my Hawkfish is demonstrating characteristic behavior, but no outward signs.  The sad part is that I had just released Wii (spiny puffer) into the 90 two days prior.
<The vector here likely>
After being so careful with everything I am thinking the culprit may have been the recently added LR;
would this be a valid assumption?
<Is indeed a possibility... anything wet...>
It never even occurred to me to quarantine live rock.  
<Oh yes>
At this time I have all three in a 20 gal bare-bottom hospital with sponge filter and airstone, etc.. (they are still small, biggest 3-4 inches) and have started treatment with Rid-Ich (half-strength) due to reported lion and puffer sensitivities.
<Mmm... the component of the Rid-Ich (Formalin, not the Malachite) needs to be full-strength here to be effective>
I am doing 30% water changes every 6 hours or when ammonia reaches 0.25, and I am getting ready to start dropping salinity, but I am wondering if I should take Wii out of this tank and put him in another QT tank as he did not demonstrate signs of Ich and he was released only two days prior to the infestation or keep him in with the lion and Hawkfish prophylactically as puffers are reportedly prone to Ich.
<All need to be treated, the main tank needs to be left w/o fish hosts... fallow...>
  He has been in there for about 8 hours now "prophylactically" but appears unhappy and bored, (not stressed).  Also I have a spiny urchin in my 90.  Is this okay to leave as is or is he considered a "host" also??  
<Is okay, not a host>
I would really appreciate any feedback, corrective measures, or insight to help me through this!!   Thank you for your wealth of information on this site.  I would have never made it this far without it!!!  
Kimberly Collins
<Bob Fenner, who is "splitting up" the Cryptocaryon FAQs (24 folders...) the last few days...>

Ich and the new Tank 1/12/07
Hi Crew!
<Hi>
I am new to the hobby and started a tank for Christmas.  I have several non-related questions.  I have a 30g Oceanic system with the wet/dry filter, and all my levels are normal.  I have a constant temp of 78, sg of 1.023, nitrates (8), nitrites (0), and ph (8.3) are all fine and normal.  I have about 30lb of LR and 2" of LS.  I perform 10% water changes weekly.
I had...a mandarin dragonet who ate regularly and seemed healthy die for no apparent reason (no enemies or sinking belly), <Not an appropriate fish for this sized tank.>  So I added a lawnmower blenny who I found in the filter chamber above the bio balls and luckily he was alive so I put him back in the tank and he was fine for a couple days and then he perished...  <Something wrong with the tank, need to figure out what is killing the fish, have you tested for ammonia?  Perhaps the tank has not finished cycling.>
Now I have a few hermits (who also seem to disappear for no reason???), 3 snails, 1 urchin (who likes it in the filter chamber...is this okay?), 1 orange tree sponge, 2 feather dusters, 1 Sebae clownfish, 1 Foxface <Gets too big for this tank>, and 1 green brittlestar.  <Predatory.>  
Question time!
The orange tree sponge seems to be doing well with good color and is in direct flow of water coming back into the tank.  I squirt 10 drops of micro invert food and 10 drops of calcium to promote the live rock to grow once weekly, is this enough?  <Depends, what is your calcium level at?  Don't add anything unless you test for it first.>  The sponge has these clear "polyps" "growing" out of its pores...what can these be and is this normal?  <Just new growth probably.>
I have an abundance of diatom algae on the substrate and walls of the aquarium...this is normal in the early stages of the system, correct?  It will go away with time, correct?  <Will eventually as long the water parameters stay good.>
I feed the tank a combination of frozen Mysid, frozen brine, flake, and strip of green algae once daily and I make sure they eat it all as not to leave to much to rot.  <Ok, just don't overfeed.>  They always seem to be starving when I feed, am I feeding them often enough or should I feed twice daily? <Twice daily is ok, but fish are pretty much always hungry.  Don't go by their reaction to food to determine if they have eaten enough.> Also, interesting and oddly enough, my clownfish (when full) will "feed" the brittlestar!!!!!!!!  He takes food into his mouth, swims by the brittlestar, and spits it in his direction.  The brittlestar will then grab the food and eat it, they will repeat this process over until I turn the filter back on to filter out uneaten food...Have you ever seen this????  <Clownfish are strange, often do stuff along these lines.>
And lastly,
I think my system has ICK!!  Since I got the clownfish, he rubs against the sand, walls, and he swims in the in-flow of water.  He has several white spots on him and in his fins and he "shudders" occasionally.  <White spots are bad, shuddering can be normal behavior for a clown.>  My Foxface is infected as well.  <Not good.>  He has white spots on him and in his fins.  The spots on his body look to have a brown ring around them?  <Irritation.>  He itches sometimes in the sand but both seem to be eating and swimming normally...  Does this sound like Ick??? <Yep.> I also do not have a QT as I did not know of this in the beginning...What would you suggest as I cannot separate the fish from the tank...?  <Get a QT.>
Should I feed them vitamins/garlic, lower the sg in the tank....?
<Can try, although not much use with the vitamins or garlic, lowering the sq will negatively effect the LR and star.  No good choices here.>
What would be good specimens for me to get as cleaners...shrimp? wrasse? more hermits? more snails?  <None are useful with Ich.>
And can these help with the parasites I have?
<No>
Thanks in advance for your knowledge and assistance!!!
Tina
<QT/hospital tank is the only effective way to go.  "Reef Safe" treatments are either non-effective or overly toxic to all life.>
<Chris>

Ich in QT. Should I move exposed but asymptomatic fish to main now? 1/10/07
Hello Crew!
<Yo duuude.. Graham T. with you tonight.>
I would like to start out by saying that I have literally read every FAQ on this site
<Suuuuure you have.>
and we are all in debt to you for the great service that you provide!  This is my first time writing to you because I have been able to get every answer I have needed from reading your site.  I have made many mistakes along the way, but because of your site I am learning to minimize them little by little.
<That is our hope, for sure!>
I am in the final stages of the initial set up of my 120gal tank.  Just today the tank is cycled ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, PH 8.3.  I have 100lbs of live rock and a 3 inch sand bed that slopes up to 5 inches in the back.  I have a 3 inch Emperor Angel and 2 percula clowns that have been in quarantine in a 42gallon hex for 4 months and a 3.5 inch powder blue tang that is being quarantined in a 10 gallon.
<Four months! Not sure if that is actually considered QT or "residency"... ;)  >
The PBT has been there for about 1 week.  I will not be adding any other fish to this system.  
<Good idea.>
I have plans on building a 500 gal custom display that I hope to begin designing once things begin to settle in with my 120 gal.  I do realize that the 120 will not be able to support my angel and tang long term.  My question involves order and method of introduction to the display from quarantine and a possible bump in the road.  My two clowns and angel have always had heavy breathing, but have not shown any other signs of parasites or infection.  The only thing I can think of that would cause this is that because of the shape of the tank and low water flow that there is a low content of oxygen in the water, but today I noticed a white spot above the eye of the female clown.  This is a little frustrating because if it is ich and it didn't rear its ugly head until 4 months into quarantine a person has to wonder how plausible it is to run an ich free system.  
<Could be any number of parasitic cyst...>
I am faced with the decision of extending the quarantine in the inadequate 42 gal to see what becomes of this and run the risk of losing a fish, or placing the fish in the 120 display and adding my ich magnet PBT 2 months from now and having a deadly outbreak.  
<Well, you could MAKE the QT adequate, right? Airstone? Flow? etc...>
Is it very likely that these fish have ich and just
haven't shown any spots until 4 months after introduction to quarantine?  
<Mmmm... no, but not impossible.>
These fish act and look very healthy and eat like pigs (fed every Ocean Nutrition product besides brine shrimp).  In fact the emperor angel is the brightest colored specimen I have ever seen.  If that is any indication of health.  
<It is.>
Would it be conscientious to give the Angel a fresh water dip and add him to the display and keep an eye on the clowns in quarantine for a bit longer?  
<That was my first thought. Get him into a properly sized and planned setup, but you do run the risk of introducing the pathogen into the main tank. Then you mentioned the "spot". >
If my Angel doesn't show any signs of illness in the display will he still by carrying the parasite waiting for my PBT to arrive?  
<If it is Crypt. then yes, they will follow on their host, regardless of whether he has symptoms.>
Unfortunately the answer to my questions are probably not the ones I want to hear, but the easy way usually isn't the most effective way. I am concerned about all of my fish, but I have to admit that my main concern is for my Angel.  He is a truly outstanding looking fish and I have grown quite fond of him.  Thanks in advance.
<I am curious about the extended QT. I assume the angel was an outstanding specimen that couldn't be passed on. Keep your eyes open and let me tell you how nice it is to read that you adhere to a QT rule!
-Graham T.>
Jim

Re: Ich in QT. Should I move exposed but asymptomatic fish to main now? 1/11/07
<Hi James, GT again>
Thanks for the quick response!  What I took from it is that I should try to introduce the angel to the main display.  
<Actually, I think I was saying you should wait and watch. (It's just a spot) >
What do you think about the following procedure for acclimation; I will prepare a 5 gallon bucket with 1 gallon of temp and ph adjusted freshwater, place him in it and slowly drip the display water in the bucket until it is full over the course of about 15 - 20 Minutes.  If this is done will I likely knock the parasite down (if there is one) enough that my Powder blue tang has a fighting chance of making it in the display.
<What if you skip the drip and use another bucket of display water as an intermediate dip? Have you read all of the dip FAQs?>
Or should I go with the alternative and treat my angel and clowns with copper and get it over with.  
<There are other alternatives, one being to observe the hex and improve oxygenation and movement.>
I hate using these questionably affective poisons on fish.  
<I like to avoid treating unidentified prob.s, much less recommend a treatment for pathogens I can't see.>
Hopefully someday the proper research will be done and better medications will be available.  
<Mmmm... yes. Hopefully, but not likely anytime soon. Graham T.>
Thanks
again,
Jim