Hyposalinity and Nitrogen cycle. Crypt reading, induced troubles...   4/1/09
I currently have a 300 gallon FOWLR set up with 250-300 pounds of live rock and 150-200 pounds of live sand. Stock list is as follows: 1 3-4" Emperor Angel, 1 6-7" Spanish Hogfish, 2 6" Yellow Tangs, 1 Flame Angel, 6 Green-Blue Chromis, 1 2" Hippo Tang, 1 7 " two-barred Rabbitfish, 1 5-6" Dog Faced Puffer, 1 5-6" Maroon Clown. I soak their food in Zoe and Selcon every day. I recently purchased (3 days ago) a 3 " Blond Naso Tang, 4-5" Midas Blenny and a 2" Niger Trigger. And no, I did not quarantine these
fish,
<...>
very dumb on my part. Well, today I noticed a few Crypt spots on the Naso and the Trigger. Currently my salinity is 1.025. I have no way of taking these fish into a separate tank so I need to directly treat display tank. I have read on other forums that dropping the salinity to 1.010 would cause a die-off in the live rock and sand causing a mini-cycle, thus causing a rise in ammonia and nitrites.
<... all possibilities>
I have treated this tank before with Cupramine and have had success. I'm leaning towards treating tank
again with Cupramine but wanted to ask if lowering the salinity be a better option. Also keeping the salinity at 1.014-1.015 long-term be ok for a FOWLR setup?
<Nope, nah, and I'd be reading... Please see where we ask folks to go
through: http://wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htm
Bob Fenner>

Cryptocaryon appearing 3/24/09
First, thank you for the wonderful advice that you make available here. I have learned much, and continue to learn every time I visit (which is almost every day.)
<You're welcome.>
I recently (two weeks ago) replaced my scratched, beat up, 120 gallon reef tank with a new Oceanic tank and stand.
<Great.>
We used mostly old system water, and transferred over the live rock into the new tank with new live sand. Everything went smoothly.  However, I am now using a Sedra 12000 pump to power a Precision Marine Bullet-1, and an Eheim 1262 for one of my returns. These pumps, coupled with 300 W halide bulbs and 216 W actinics were keeping my tank between
82-83°. I also have and Iwaki 30 but it is external, so I presume not adding to the elevated temperature.
<Will be some heat transferred here.>
I tried taking the glass covers off of the tank,
<Would not do this, any splashing could shatter the lamps.>
replacing the heater with a new one as the one that was in there seemed defective, and opened a window in the fish room as I live in a large building that heats up, especially in these Northeast Massachusetts winters. All of this resulted in my tank temperatures fluctuating from 77.9° to 82.8° within a period of a couple of days.
Now for my problem: I just today noticed some dreaded white dandruff-like spots on the top fan of my Hippo Tang. There are approximately three of them. Removing him from the tank will require removing every bit of rock and coral, as he is the first to disappear in the rock work whenever it feels threatened. I attempted using "Fish Trap", but that was a joke. He disappeared into the rock work, and never came out.  Unfortunately, I can't help but believe that this problem came about due to the instability of water temperature.
<Unlikely, when the temperature change took two days. Is the temperature stabilized now regardless of what the actual temperature is?>
I realize that the ideal solution would be to remove him from the tank ASAP, and treat him with hyposalinity, and then perhaps Chloroquine Sulfate if Hyposalinity was not successful. I realize that this puts every fish in the tank at great risk. So, I would greatly appreciate any suggestions into how to handle this potential disaster. I have some Kordon Organic Ich Attack. Is that truly coral/live rock safe, and does it work?
<No to both, my opinion. I would make sure you have no drastic temperature swings, that is day to night. If a chiller is out of the question, then you are better off keeping a steady 80-82 rather than a daily swing from 77 to 82. All you can do other than this is feed a healthy diet, maintain pristine water quality, and keep a close eye on the tang and others.  If push comes to shove, and the tang needs to be removed, try putting in a baffle isolating the tangs cranny from the rest of the tank, then remove the live rock in just that area. Would be better than dismantling the entire tank. I'm guessing you may have had some
water parameter changes during the move that may have led to the tangs problem.>
Best regards,
<Good luck, Jeffrey. James (Salty Dog)>
Jeffrey Castaldo

Re: Addendum to "Question about treatment for crypt" – 03/03/09
Hi there!
<Kerstin>
I just wanted to reply back about the treatment. Jo Ann has been doing much more frequent water changes (50% every other day), and while the nitrates and nitrites have not yet gone down, we are assuming it is the treatment she was doing. However, tonight the treatment is over, the micron filter goes back in the HOT filter, and she will do every-other day water changes until the nitrates and nitrites go down to reasonable levels, at which point she'll go down
to every 3-4 days unless her values go back up.
In the meantime, she reports this morning that apparently the centropyge had been sick for quite a while - he is now eating like a pig, which he hadn't done in a while, and his color is much better...so we should just have waited a while before writing.
<Mmmm>
r.e. the algae in my tank - I only very recently ran across your mention of the money cowry for eating Bryopsis, and am in the process of getting a couple - in the meantime I do have a small tiger cowry in my tank, although I don't believe he can keep up with my tank.
<The smaller Cypraeids are much better here>
Finally, r.e. the addendum - wouldn't you know it, I had forgotten something even on it...we did start the entire treatment by doing a 3 minute dip of the centropyge in water containing ParaGuard before it went to the QT originally - and that caused most of the Crypt trophonts to drop off!
<Ahh, very good>
Thanks again for all you help, and I apologize for jumping the gun in writing to you...your website has everything we need, I just forget that while problems can seemingly crop up in a moment's notice, it usually feels like it takes much longer to correct them.
<No worries>
Hope you're having a lovely day,
Kerstin:-)
<Thus far... Thank you. BobF>

Ongoing Ich problem.– 02/28/09
Hi Crew,
<Adam>
As you know my tank has suffered from Ich for a while and as I thought it had gone and water param.s were excellent purchased 3 new fish, tank 270 litre.
<Eats bushes leaves>
The first was a small 3inch inc mouth yellow Longnose butterflyfish, small saddleback butterfly
<This volume is too small...>
about 21/2 inch and lastly a tiny about 3/4 to 1 inch Emperor angel.
<Much too small for this>
Sadly Ich returned with a potency. The yellow Longnose died on day 3, the saddleback at this time had some spots but seemed to be coping well, the same as the emperor. As my other fish are now "immune" even the yellow tang
and 2 small hepatus tangs
<... need more room than this>
I felt the other fish would be fine. This is day 8 and the saddleback although had 3 rounds with Ich seems to be more immune each time and eating well. Feeding is new spectrum 1mm floating, Spirulina brine shrimp soaked in garlic. Last night the two looked bad, this morning the saddleback is much better very active, no spots and breathing normally and generally well, actively swimming around the tank, but my emperor was in a trance as I think the Ich had got into his gills.
As I did not have a separate tank,
<Buy this instead of more fishes>
I placed him, very short term with the only option I had, a large bowl
<...>
and reduced the salinity to 1.009 mixing with spring water and water from the display tank, added bicarbonate of soda as the ph was 7.8 and went to the LFS. I purchased a 22litre QT tank and rushed back as I wanted to mix
the water with distilled water (higher ph around 8.6
<...? No>
as I know bicarbonate takes time to raise the ph) and fresh sea water left in a plastic container for a month to kill most types of parasites. I was so happy when he was still alive and looking better I quickly set up the new tank with a salinity at 1.009 and placed him in there with a small piece of living rock so that he can hide with nothing else except an air pipe blowing to move the water and provide oxygen. Within 5 min.s he was all normal and pecking at the rock for food. Strangely although I am on the Great Barrier Reef small angels like him are very hard to find. The reason
I write is at this salinity is there any way to keep param.s ok as I have read that the lower salinity will kill the denitrifying bacteria on the living rock so I expect to do water changes every day which will stress him.
<... this is posted>
An additional problem is that he only "eats" by pecking at live rock which I can change daily from the display tank. Do you have any ideas how I can filter the water to keep param.s good. The reason I made the QT so small is that practically I know I can change most or all of the water daily. I also purchased a 70litre tank for standy or for sea horses. I did not believe in slowly reducing the salinity as he looked very bad and I am amazed within 2 hours he is now looking great and pecking at the rock. Clearly the Ich exploded. If my fish in the main tank are immune do you think after a month the Ich will have gone?
<Maybe>
Regards,
Adam.
<Keep reading. BobF>

Ich, Understanding and treatment 2/24/09
Hi there,
<Hello>
I have a question regarding Ich. About 4 months ago, I had a huge outbreak of Ich in my 125 gallon (fish only) tank. I lost the following fish in a matter of 5 days.
False Perc Clown
Flame Hawkfish
Powder Blue Tang
Two Banggai Cardinals
Vermiculated Angel
2 Damsels
Lawnmower Blenny
<Sure it was ich and not something more virulent? This many fish in such a short time makes me wonder if it was Amyloodinium, aka Marine Velvet.>
The following fish survived
Niger Trigger
Marine Betta
Yellow Tang
Maroon Clown
<The extreme level of stocking you had in the tank may also have played a part.>
Not sure why it seems they were never infected\affected by this outbreak. It has been 4 months now and all seems fine. Can I assume that the Ich is now gone or is it still feeding on my four fish (that might be pretty resistant at this point) and just waiting to explode when I restock with fish that might be a little more prone to Ich.
<Is still there unless the tank was allowed to run fallow while treating the fish in a separate hospital tank. See here for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
From what I have read, I am extremely lucky to still have my Yellow Tang. Are the others noted for being pretty resistant to this parasite.
<To a degree yes.>
I have read about treating with Copper but I am terrified of treating with too much copper and killing fish that might not have a need for treatment.
<Be aware that both Tangs and Clowns have trouble with copper, may be best to think about alternative treatments.>
I don't know at this point if I even need to treat my fish as they all are doing great.
<Could leave well enough alone, sometimes the best path to take.>
I really want to start adding more fish but do not want to do so if I am just going to be placing them in a tank of hungry, evil parasites.
<Not evil, just doing what they do. You already have 4 large fish in this tank, be aware of this when choosing new tankmates. Also make sure you QT all fish before adding to this tank.>
Please advise. Thanks a million in advance for your response.
Thanks,
Darragh
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Ich Problem.   2/16/08
Bob,
<Adam>
I have been keeping marines for about 30 years and a recent Ich problem seems to have got the better of me, which I have been battling for about 2 weeks.
<No fun for sure>
I had an outbreak of Ich and decided to add freshly squashed garlic juice to the fish food mainly brine scrimp as New Life Spectrum Marine formula the other food I use says it contains garlic. There was no improvement. I had read that the smell of garlic can affect the way the parasites navigate to find a host and felt that the garlic was too diluted in the food to have an effect as it was metabolised by the fish. I therefore decided as my fish were covered in white spot that drastic action was needed so I crushed some garlic and placed it in the exit part of my protein skimmer in a Knot so it would be rinsed by the tank water and went to bed. The next morning there was not a white spot anywhere on any of the fish.
<Neat!>
I had read that the spots fall off always at night so I was not sure I was out of the woods yet,
<Mmm, yes... but I want to point out that in two weeks there were multiple life stage-generations going on here... Not likely at all that they were all cycling off>
but my fish were more active and started to eat again and I was happy and went out thinking if this works I must post it on several sites. Anyway when I came home about 12 hours later the fish were covered again and I thought that they were going to die, yellow tang, 2 small hepatus tangs, small maroon clown, small brown clown, tiny domino damsel, 4 anemones, 1 cleaner shrimp, 3 read sea stars. So I did the same again as I thought the garlic had become too diluted and went to bed. This morning again they were fine but not eating and lethargic like the ph had dropped, after testing the problem I have now is a ph drop, so I placed some sodium bicarbonate pre mixed into the tank. About 2 hours later the tank had become very cloudy and now I have decided that to do a water change would negate the effect I have had with the garlic and stress the fish as they are pecking at the rocks and no white spots, however I cannot seem to get the ph above 7.8.
<Trouble... I would move all... the fishes to one new place, the anemones and any other non-fish livestock to another... Pronto>
Do you have any suggestions as my fish are picking at the rocks but breathing fast as I think they must have mucous on their gills from the white spot. The tank is a invert fish mix, 270litres just running with coral sand, coral grit and coral rubble suspended by a plastic tray about 8 cms from the void of still water. I do not think the cloudiness is ammonia as I have tested for it and it is zero, also my anemones are open and fine the tank is so cloudy I can hardly see through it.
<Mach schnell, ahora, now!>
Someone told me that if I run a chiller (I live in the tropics) and keep the tank water constant this will aid the stop of Ich, my tank in the day is 30C dropping to 28C at night.
<Nah>
Thanks you in advance, Adam.
<I don't trust any Cryptocaryon cure that I've not used personally... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... till you understand at least my perspective.
Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich Problem.   2/16/08
Rob,
<Adam>
Thank you for the speedy reply, I am glad to say most of my fish and all the inverts survived the night, the domino damsel did not I think that as he was only about 5mm the Ich attacking his gills and was too much. The tank was not cloudy this morning and the ph was ok after adding bicarbonate soda yesterday but having read this would only hold up the ph for a short time I took 80lts out of the sea (I live on the Great Barrier Reef so the water is clean very clean) which equates to about a 30% water change. The inverts are ok as Ich does not attack them but are we in agreement that if I take the fish out and treat with copper I am still unlikely to get rid of Ich in my display tank even after many months.
<Likely so>
I know this is strange as tangs have soft skin so are very prone to Ich but the yellow tang, 2 small hepatus tangs and a brown clown have survived when others have not (juv Emperor plus more) so I am assuming they have built up a partial immunity?
<Possibly>
As my water quality is good again will they build up total immunity as clearly if I take them out, any new fish, or if I replace them back into the display tank they will contract Ich again. I have never had such a bad infection like this one in the tank.
Regards,
Adam.
<I don't know that fishes can/do ever acquire complete immunity from Protozoan infestation/s... There has been a good deal of research in recent years on vaccines for various pathogenic diseases of fish stocks, particularly commercially important species, biological vectors of real trouble... However, something like immunity of some resistance does seem to pass on to fishes exposed, recovered from Cryptocaryon... And unless conditions become very dire, and/or they are exposed to a "very strong", hyper-infection, they do appear to become very resistant. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich Problem. Spelling corr. see below  – 2/21/09
Rob,
<Adam>
Thank you for your replies I think you are a great help to people all over the world as I have read many of your help responses from troubled hobbyists. My update - I purchased two UV sterilisers 24W each with a projected turnover of all the tank volume in 20 min.s 270lit, UV's are vague in the hobby as what flow rate kills the parasites, most buyers I imagine buy on wattage but if the flow rate is too fast probably not effective as they could be, if at all. I wanted one UV at each end of the tank having read that parasites can go into the substrate only the free swimming one present a present a problem so that they are picked up from a more diverse area of the water flow.
<Mmm, and even "over-UV-ing" a system will not eradicate a parasitic infestation entirely>
I am pleased to let you know that all my fish appear (fingers crossed) totally free of white spot, now not even flicking off the rocks, colours great and eating well. I have thought about this carefully and think that if a fish is given enough time to gain immunity by not being attacked by too many parasites at one time within 10-14 days they appear immune.
<Does happen>
The problem is as we know in an aquarium with no UV's, copper etc sadly it is almost certain death from suffocation due to gill infestation on the second attack within 3 days. I would advise anyone that sees a few white spots on the fast round to immediately buy an effective UV and place an airstone or some means of water flow nearby to gain a better effect as even with quarantine the other fish are likely to suffer.
<Can be of help, use... twenty some years back this application was of common use in retail settings>
Once I had bought the UV's one of my clowns had spots all over him they were so bad more like fluff but I think once they dropped off the free swimming stage was mainly killed by the UV's and I was sure he was going to die but he made it. I perhaps cheated a little bit as I bought him a female about 11/2 times his size and he perked up and sits with her in one of the anemones. My yellow tang and 2 hepatus tangs survived the whole episode and I think now are happily now immune.
In closing do you know why all the yellow tangs I see have bronze around their eye pupil but mine is yellow in the eye as well, is that a regional or diet variation.
<Don't know>
PS. If you are going to print my story can you please correct not to knot in my first email.
Regards,
Adam.
<Will try to do so. BobF>

Re: Ich Problem.   2/23/09
Thanks please can you change the word not to knot in the first email in regards to Ich in the sentence:
<What?>
so I crushed some garlic and placed it in the exit part of my protein skimmer in a not so it would be rinsed by the tank water and went to bed.
Thanks,
Adam.
<Please... fix your English before sending. B> 

Ich treatment in a new hospital tank
Going To Battle Against Ich    1/17/09
Hi, I have read Scott Fellman's excellent article about treating ich on WWM and have followed the instructions: I have a 60 gallon display with 2 Perculas and a 3 inch Yellow Tang. The problem of ich/whitespot arrived following the Tang's arrival - he was fine for 3 weeks but over the past week has developed whitespot on one of his fins and he has been in obvious discomfort.
<Never fun, but treatable! Thanks for the kind words on the article. Scott F. at your service today.>
Anyways, I have now quarantined the 3 fish in a 60 litre barren tank and herein is the confusion; I gave the fish a FW bath for 5 minutes each and then transferred them to the hospital tank which contains a new filter I bought today, and realized I may have made a silly error in my setting up of the hospital tank.
<I think the "new" filter could be an issue!>
Because I have been a bit complacent in not already having the hospital tank running, I thought it would be ok to siphon water from the main tank into the hospital tank, so I did this ,added the fish and started them off on their copper medication , at this point I became aware that perhaps under the circumstances this was a bad move considering the water from the display tank contains the culprit protozoans. I am confused because I was thinking that placing the fish in new uncycled water would add to the problem so feel a little stuck here.
<Well, really, I'm more concerned about a new filtration system without bacterial colonization. Using water from the display makes sense to me. I wouldn't worry about that as much as I'd worry about the longer-term potential problems of lack of beneficial bacteria in the filter media. That's why I always keep a couple of sponge filters going in my display system's sump, so that I always have a readily-colonized filter in emergencies. A good practice, IMO. I don't feel the need to keep a hospital tank running full-time...Like a quarantine system, it should be a temporary system employed only when you need it. Also, using water from the display is not problematic, in my experience. The key is to keep regular water changes going for high water quality, while maintaining properly therapeutic copper levels in the system. Testing copper levels is vital when treating for illnesses. >
Will the copper treatment kill off the parasites already in the water or do I have to take drastic action of some kind?
<Copper will typically kill the free-swimming protozoa. This is a relatively brief period in the life cycle of the causative protozoa, so if you have a proper therapeutic dose of copper in the hospital tank, it should not be necessary to take any further measures, IMO. Follow the copper manufacturer's instructions to the letter. Practice good husbandry and follow the course of treatment, and you have an excellent chance of a cure.>
I would appreciate some guidance here because I am eager to cure these fish. Thanks for the superlative website and I hope somebody can offer some sense here, regards, Sean W.
<You are on the right track, Sean. Hang in there. Let me know if you have any other questions. Regards, Scott F.>

Puffer/lionfish with ick : (, reading    1/11/09
hello,
I have a 100 gallon tank with a small lionfish (Pterois volitans) and a new cool spiny puffer (Chilomycterus antillarum). When I got the puffer I put him in a QT tank for two weeks and everything was fine, so I transferred him to the main tank. Now a couple days later I am looking at both of them and it appears that they now have ick!!
<Mmm... whence forth? Could have been on the new fish, or in the established system...>
I moved them to the QT tank. I have Ick-attack,
<... not consistently effective... IMO, written over and over, archived on WWM>
from kordon, will this work/help?
<Not likely in my experience>
Also. now the puffer wont eat. he will chase his thawed silverside then "bite" it, but when he bites it he seems like its as hard as a rock and just barely puts it in his mouth. the lionfish is eating fine. I put a mussel and clam (live) in the QT tank to see if he will eat them (they are small and I let them sit in water so they could release their toxins). I am tempted to put a feeder fish in just to get him some food because he wont eat.
they are really cool fish and I would not live to lose them. What would you suggest as treatment?
thanks WWM crew!
Mike
<That you read, had read before writing... Start here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptpuffs.htm
and the linked files above... until you understand the gist of what your real choices are here... All fishes need to be treated... with copper or quinine cpd.s... the system allowed to go fallow, sans fish hosts... Read on. Bob Fenner>

Confused Over Ick Treatment 12/30/08
First of all I want to thank you for this valuable resource. I read this site for hours but I am still apprehensive about treating for ick. I have never done a freshwater dip yet either.
I have a 135 gal reef tank with 150 lbs of live rock that I have had for about ten years. I have not had an outbreak of ick until now.
I have a yellow tang, Foxface Rabbitfish, clarkii, saddleback, watchman goby, yellowhead Jawfish, two blue chromis, two Banggai, royal gramma, mandarin and a powder brown.
The only new fish is the powder brown about a week and a half ago. He was kept at the dealers for two weeks and he looked clean when I bought him. I (now regrettably) added him to my tank without a quarantine.
<Yikes...>
Ugghh. Now not only does he have ick spots but so does the yellow, Foxface and clarkii. The Foxface, clarkii and yellow tang have a few but the powder brown has a lot. At first he had a few and they dropped off about a week ago.
<... cycling...>
Today they are back along with a few dots on the others I mentioned.
Nobody seems stressed and everyone is eating with gusto. I am feeding Nori, frozen mixed cubes, mysis, and formula one pellets with garlic(which they love) and red and green algae sheets. The reason I didn't quarantine him was because of a previous experience and sometimes in the FAQ's it seems to recommend different approaches for different fish. But then again it may be more likely that when I read so long Im confused!! Wouldn't take much haha.
Two months ago I purchased had purchased a different powder brown that developed ick as soon as I got home with him. I tried to hypo him and I lost him the next day. So Im a little unsure of the course of action I should take. Should I wait and see if they can fight off the crypt or should I try to catch them all and hypo or copper.
<I would do the former... wait, and hope...>
I have a 20 gal and 2 ten gallon tanks I could use. What would be your recommendation?
My parameters:
ph 8.4
temp 82
Ca 380
Alk 8 dKH
Nitrate 0
phosphate 0
Mg 1200
Should I lower the SG from 1.026?
<I would not...>
I have cleaner shrimps, lots of crabs and snails some sps, LPSs and a few softies. If you say to remove the fish would the mandarin be able to stay in the display?
<If fishes are to be treated, all need to be removed>
He doesn't eat brine shrimp or other foods--only copepods. Would any of the others be safe against ick? Im not looking forward to trying to catch the Jawfish.
Thanks for all your patience and this wonderful site. It answers a lot of questions but I am still nervous and would rather be sure and get your advice before I take all my fish out of their home they have enjoyed for years. The clarkii is big and fat has been there for at least 8 years.
Happy New Year to you!
<Thank you Cindy. Do please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm
and the linked files above. It will give you insight as to what others have done in similar circumstances. Bob Fenner>

Thomas Roach Ick Omnibus, formaldehyde, quinine f's -12/11/08
Hello Mr. Fenner and others,
<Thomas>
Thought I would give you an update on my situation, as I'm hoping you are still familiar with it? Mainly to serve as a warning to others and emphasize the dire need for quarantining livestock, because once you get this resistant strain of Ick in your tank it is not coming out with ease?
<Ah yes>
We moved a couple of weeks ago and of course the fish still had ick? I disposed of most of my sand bed to get to 1? or less for maintenance purposes, changed 100% of the water and still had the infestation. I treated it with a Formalin product similar to quick cure, which again reduced the ick while the treatment was ongoing, but with this strain WHAT FORMALIN BASED MEDS SEEM TO DO is allow the remaining ick to come back at much greater numbers and strength? why this is, I do not know but it has happened both times I have treated with the Formalin based products.
<A useful observation, note>
This treatment I have gone back to the Quinine Sulfate (by stock in Natl. Fish Pharm if they offer it, I'm funding the place :-) ), and I seem to be having better results completely by accident! In some foggy haze I quadrupled the original dose for this size tank somehow, and it seems as though it has proven to be more effective at a ridiculously high dose.
After a 3 day period I did NOT do a partial as recommended and treated at regular dosage, and after the 2nd 3 day period I treated at 1 ½ times the recommended dosage.
The fish, into day 8, show no signs of Ick, whereas they have in the past treatments. I'm not overly confident yet, but I'll post results as we go.
If other hobbyists had any clue what I am dealing with, there would never be an email to you regarding skipping quarantine, and I cant stress it enough to your readers how much misery it can cause.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for reports on this ongoing exercise. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick-  12/11/08
Thanks, Bob... let me restress how TOUGH this is... to me far worse than Oodinium simply because you cannot get rid of it. I have the salinity at 1.017,
<Has to be much lower... 1.012, perhaps under 1.010 to really mal-affect the Cryptocaryon... at this level... most of your fishes as well...>
temp at 82, and water full of meds and it is still resistant! QT all your fish!!!!! This makes African cichlids look mighty tempting again.
<Ah yes... or even Guinea Pigs!>
On a side note, Quinine is quite effective at destroying Cyanobacteria...
at least it had one pleasant result... gone with one dose.
Thomas Roach
<Silver linings... BobF>

Re: Ick, garlic  01/19/09
Bob,
This may be my final update to this issue! As you can tell by the date of this last email, it has been two full weeks of no remedy for ick but the use
of the Garlic Extreme. Now I undoubtedly had/have ick in the tank... but from the point of religious dosing of garlic with the food, there has been absolutely no sign if ick whatsoever. You know the trials I went through to handle my ick problem prior to this course of action. Again, I won't say it's a 'cure'... but there HAS to be some validity to it somewhere. I only write now to say thanks for the support received from you and your crew, and also to say that when someone has this extreme problem, give it a try.
The 'directions' say to add two drops per ounce of food, however I've been adding 7 or 8 drops to it. I only wish I had done this prior to removing the Atlantic Blue Tang, but we learn as we go. Maybe one of the old wives' tales actually works...
<I do believe that Allium sativum has some "therapeutic/health value"... I do not, though, want to be seen as recommending it (solely) as a cure for anything>
We have not yet added another fish yet, to see if it will contract ick or whether I can prevent infestation by feeding garlic ahead of time in a QT tank, and when I do such a thing I will certainly send you an email with results.
God bless,
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for this update, input Thomas. BobF>

Quarantine water from affected main tank?, Ich treatment 12/09/08
Hello Crew,
<Hi>
I have a 75 gallon FOWLR that has operated for 8 months. I am housing a beautiful 2.5" flame angel, a robust 2.5" tomato clown and a curious 2" six lined wrasse. The ich manifests itself the most on the angel and seems to get worse one day, then improve another. It (seemingly) went away entirely for a few weeks, but is back, so I want to eradicate
entirely.
<Typical of the parasite's lifecycle.>
I have had the angel 8 weeks; Didn't quarantine when purchased. I know now....
<Yep>
I have read and reread Scott Fellman's article, "Marine ich: Fighting the War on Two Fronts." I understand that I need to move my fish to the hospital tank, but surely I don't use the same affected water from the main tank?!?!
<Is best, so that all parameters match. Any ich you bring with will be killed off during treatment.>
If the answer is no, which I suspect, then how will I acquire beneficial bacteria (and no ich) in my QT tank while the main tank lies fallow for 5-6 weeks?
<You get little to no bacteria in the water, most all is on solid surfaces.
Most likely whatever treatment method you decide to use will kill it off anyway. Daily water changes are usually necessary while treating the fish, this is how you control the ammonia/nitrite levels. For the water changes you use new salt water by the way.>
If I have overlooked this answer, please redirect me.
Thank you in advance for your help on this.
Rylan
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Marine Ich 12/2/08
Hello Crew,
<Hi>
My tank.
I have a 72 gallon tank with 2 small damsels, 2" mimic tang, 2 triggers (2" each), lionfish (3.5"), puffer fish (1.5") and a wrasse (3").
<Could be a problematic mix, all except the damsels could easily outgrowth this tank depending on the specific species, and aggression could also come into play.>
I have about 100 pounds of live rock with mixture of live sand and crushed up corals (about 50 pounds).
Couple of small corals here and there and a big rock of star polyps and sand duster starfish and about 20 hermit crabs and 10 snails as cleanup crew.
<Not for long with this mix of fish.>
My water parameters
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 0.1
Nitrite - 0
Phosphate - 1 (I'm trying to control that)
PH - 8.2
I know what fishes that I have so I do my water changes religiously.
<Yep>
Problem.
Last night, I noticed my puffer getting picked on by a trigger (strange since they never fought before .[been together in that tank for at lease 4 months together]) and I was actually contemplating on donating it to LFS then I noticed something on his fins... ICH!!!!
<Uh oh.>
It was at night and I decided to examine further in the morning.
Now I noticed that nearly ALL of the fish was showing symptoms... (I haven't really looked into it too much this weekend except at feeding time due to the holiday weekend, new baby, and trying to buy a new house..)
Big Problem.
My QT tank is shattered by my wife.
What do I do?
<Get a new one?>
<<Heeeee! Chris... a new Qtank or wife!!!? B>>
What are my options on treating this thing?
<Not much without a treatment tank, good water quality, good foods, hope
the fish's immune system can take care of the parasites.>
Even if I go out and buy a new tank, I would have to cycle it and everything...
<Not really, most hospital tanks have their biofilter destroyed when
treated anyway. Daily water changes along with the chosen treatment method is what is called for here.>
Would it be ok if I were to use QuickCure on low dosages? (half or lower dosages?)
<I would not.>
Without killing all of the corals and live rocks?
<It will almost assuredly effect these.>
If there are other good medications that I can try, please let me know. I don't want to lose any fish...
<There are no proven, effective medications that do what you are looking for.>
Richard the stressed out fish owner...
<Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you will either have to treat your fish outside of the display or maintain good conditions and hope that their immune systems can help them.>
<Chris>

Re: Marine Ich 12/02/08
Hello Chris and crew,
<Hi>
Thanks for getting back to me so quick.
<Welcome>
I have been reading like crazy and found out that if I lowered the salinity level (gradually of course), raise the temperature and do daily small water changes will help tremendously.
Is this correct?
<Will not help unless lowered quite a bit, which will obviously not be handled well by your inverts and live rock.>
As of now, I don't have a QT tank (shattered) and running out of options...
<Without a separate treatment tank you really have only one option, and that is to maintain the best conditions possible and feed well and hope the fish's immune system will fight off the parasite. All other treatments will negatively effect your tank, and most likely lead to the fish's death anyways.>
I have done 4 gal water change today to drop some salinity and will do so again tomorrow morning. (or can I do more?)
<I would not manipulate the salinity of the tank, it is not effective unless dropped to 1.009 SG which will kill off everything else, cause an ammonia spike, and kill the fish.>
If I add extra stress coat medicine and mix vitamins in the water would it help any?
<Not really.>
What about soaking garlic into the food? Medicated spectrum pellet food?
Would it help any?
<Only in that garlic seems to increase appetite a bit, which helps the fish fight off the infection, but will do nothing for the ich directly.>
Thanks again.
Richard the stressed out fish owner
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Quarantine and the like, Crypt   11/19/08
WetWebMedia crew,
<Quincy>
I would appreciate your help in figuring out what to do with my aquarium and fish. I realize I have written a lot, but I figured more detail was better than less. Thank you in advance for the time you take to answer such questions.
<Welcome>
First of all I'd like to say how stupid I am so you don't have to tell me. I am new to the hobby, starting a little over 4 months ago. I have a 29 gallon aquarium with 42 pounds of live rock, 30 pounds of live sand, 20 hermit crabs, 10 snails, 3 skunk cleaners, and 1 purple lobster.
<Do keep your eye on the tropical lobsters... they are predaceous...>
For livestock I have 2 (2-inch) hippo tangs, a 2-inch Picasso trigger, and a 2-inch six-line wrasse.
<Mmm... the Tangs and Trigger don't fit here...>
My aquarium has a Penguin hang-on filter, an AquaC Remora protein skimmer, and ample circulation via powerheads. The stats of the water (consistently) are as follows: pH 8.3, temperature 77 degrees F, specific gravity 1.0245, ammonia 0 ppm, nitrite 0 ppm, and nitrate ~30 ppm. I perform weekly 5-10% water changes.
My fish are fed a varied diet, including two types of Spectrum pellets, Ocean Nutrition formulas I and II, organic Nori, and frozen brine shrimp enhanced with Selcon.
I had no problems throughout the first three months with any of my livestock, even though I did not quarantine any specimens before placing the main tank. I now realize that this was a stupid move.
About a month ago, the four fish started showing signs of ich, growing white salt-like structures on their bodies and fins and itching frequently on the live rock to the point where the six-line wrasse itched the coloring off one side of his body. After seeing enough of their itching and reading your articles about parasitic diseases, I purchased a new 29-gallon quarantine tank with the same equipment as my display tank, except without a protein skimmer. My plan was to let the main tank run fallow for about 30 days.
I collected all four fish and performed a separate freshwater dip for each with a formalin/malachite green (QuICK Cure) concentration of 1 drop per gallon (as per the package instructions) for 4-5 minutes. After the dips, I placed them in the new bare tank, raised the temperature to 80 degrees, and lowered the specific gravity to 1.015. I placed some dishes in the aquarium for cover.
The fish have been in quarantine 2 weeks. During that time, I have done two formalin/malachite green treatments in the quarantine tank and removed the medication via the carbon filter and Polyfilter. The first treatment consisted of 20 drops of the formalin/malachite green for 10 minutes. The second was performed with 40 drops for 20 minutes. As mentioned, the package suggests 1 drop/gallon.
In the last few days, I have noticed that the trigger has five small black spots on his tail fin, which looks much like the photos of �black ich� I have seen in �The Conscientious Marine Aquarist� and �The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook.�
<Mmm, not likely at all to be Paravortex... more likely a manifestation of stress... the quarantine, exposure to formalin... not "treatable", but/and will go with return to the main system and time going by>
Also, the trigger took a new liking to bullying the wrasse in the treatment tank, something he did not do in the display tank (which I think may have something to do with boredom).
<Mmm, maybe... but is "what they do">
He took a bite off of the wrasses tail fin, removing about ¾ of it. He does not, however, bother the tangs. So, I made a homemade plastic contraption with holes for water flow to place the wrasse in for protection.
Today, one of the tangs developed what appears to be more ich spots on his fins. So, my questions involve what things I should do next. Should I continue with the formalin/malachite green treatments?
<Mmm, I would not... Too likely the dosage, concentration of the formalin is/was too low to be efficacious here... and the too-dilute exposure and general conditions are killing your fishes... I would do the quick read re Chloroquine Phosphate treatment (for most all protozoan complaints) and use it here>
If so, what dose should they be and how long should they last before adding Polyfilter to absorb the medication? Also, I plan on getting a larger display tank; what size would you recommend for these fish?
<At least eighty gallons... the bigger the better>
Is there anything more I can do to prevent the bullying/keep the trigger occupied while in quarantine?
<PVC parts, pipe...>
He was really well-mannered in the display tank; I realize trigger aggression is common, but was hoping he may have been one of the exceptions.
<Only time can/will tell...>
I really want to beat these diseases and treat my fish appropriately. I am doing my best to be an informed aquarist, but have much to learn, as you can see. Any advice you have relating to steps I should take would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again for your time and patience,
Quincy
<Thank you for relating your experiences so well... and patience here concerning figuring out a path to take... do read re the Quinine. Bob Fenner>

Malachite Green and Disease, SW... Kordon/Formalin and Malachite   11/19/08
Hello Crew,
<David>
75 Gallon Tank, CPR BakPak Skimmer with Accella pump, Emperor 400 power filter, 75 pounds live sand, 45 pounds live rock.
I've had an unfortunate weekend. Disease broke out in the tank killed off 5 of my 8 fish. I'm not really sure what the disease was; I first noticed some whitish growth on the fins of the yellow tang a week ago and misdiagnosed it as Lymphocystis. Before I knew it, there was a whitish film all over a yellow tang and it quickly spread to my Humu trigger, who started scratching himself violently against rocks in the tank. I don't believe it's ich, but it could be another parasite.
<Yes... there are a few Protozoan possibilities>
In the course of three days, I lost my Midas Blenny, Ocellaris Clown, Yellow Tailed Damsel, Bluebar Dottyback, and... my Juvenile Emperor. In any case, I'm over it, if only to try and save the last three (the 4 inch yellow tang, the 4 inch Picasso trigger, and a 3 inch lunar wrasse.) Some of the fish that died showed no signs of disease (the clown, the blenny) while others did (the angel).
I had a full bottle of Kordon Rid-Ich on hand, which despite its name is supposed to treat bacterial and fungal diseases as well ich, so I set up a quarantine tank with it and dumped the tang in. At that point, I had nothing to lose--by the time I started the treatment he was covered with the disease. For three days he looked like he was going to die, but then seemed to come back to life today, and the disease seemed to have subsided substantially. Meanwhile, all that was left in my display tank were the Humu and Wrasse, both scratching on the rocks and looking bad, so this morning I threw them into the quarantine as well. They both made it through acclimation, and continue to eat, but the Trigger is still scratching himself a lot. I'm treating them and the Tang with the Kordon.
<Mmm...>
So first a couple of questions about the medication. Kordon Rid-Ich is basically Malachite Green and Formalin. I've read your article, and I understand the dangers in using this stuff, but the fish are all extremely hardy, and I kinda figured that if the tang can handle it, the trigger and wrasse can as well. I'm also not sure starting them on a copper based solution is in the picture anymore, now that I've started with the Kordon.
The quarantine tank is a 29 gallon tank, bare bottom, with a couple of BioWheels but no carbon filtration. I also had some live rock in there, which is now probably dead because of the Malachite.
<And effectively removes, negates the use of the medication...>
Anyway, I intend to treat the tank every 24 hours (1 teaspoon per 10 gallons produces a concentration of .05 mg/L malachite green and 15 mg/L formalin) and do a 10 gallon water change prior to every treatment, per the instructions on the bottle. I don't know much in terms of chemistry, but does that sound about right to you?
<Not with the LR present... Needs to be removed>
Would you advise less?
<I advise different>
Also, how long would you suggest keeping this up if the fish pull through the next few days? And should I hook up the protein skimmer to this quarantine tank in the interim?
<Too likely either the effects of the formalin will kill your stock outright or that they will perish from the stress of treatment and vagaries of being kept in the 29 gal. system here>
Finally, I'm wondering what to do about the display tank. I still have some live rock in there and the live sand, so I don't want to treat it with anything that will kill the bacteria if I don't have to. Are there ways to treat the tank without resorting to medication?
<Mmm... there are ways to "speed up" the life cycle of the pathogen/s...
elevated temp., lowered spg...>
I've heard ich will die off after a few weeks if there are no fish in the tank--is that true of all parasites?
<Some can "wait" even longer>
And is it true of fungus/bacteria? Any recommendations you could make would be greatly appreciated.
<Really... for you to read a bit more on WWM re marine parasitic disease in general...>
Thanks so much for your time,
Sincerely,
Dave in Chicago
<I would look for, use Chloroquine Phosphate here. Bob Fenner>

Re: More Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like...  11/17/08 Bob, <Tom> Thanks for the follow up. I don't have questions much as updates. I had a lengthy discussion with Dr. Bryan at Natl. Fish Pharm regarding this disease. I have not had any success in treating it. I have kept Quinine in the water constantly, always with the same results - Ich present the next morning, only on this one fish. The Tomato Clown has shown some cysts present, but not always, and no where near the number as on this Atlantic Blue Tang (100+). <Dang!> Dr. Bryan said what you said in your reply... that something might be pulling the medication out of the system. There is no carbon in the tank, nor any poly filters. The UV filter has been off. The protein skimmer has been running, but only for water flow - the air intake has been off so it has not been skimming. If something is pulling medication out of the water, <The substrate... alkaline earth materials... mainly calcium, magnesium... little doubt> it is a mystery to me. The filtration is as follows: Fluval FX5, bio-media only; 150 gallon rated wet/dry filter, bio balls, standard blue/white filter pad rinsed weekly; Prism Pro skimmer with air flow turned off. Last night, I did a 20% water change and put the skimmer back on. The water quality has been deteriorating due to medication and lack of skimming, to the point where now I've got Cyanobacteria and excessive algae blooms. I have been doing partials throughout the treatment, but with the excessive treatment length and lack of skimming, I'm thinking the fish are suffering more from poor water quality than the parasite. <I agree with you> One interesting thing was that the last time I had to use this treatment, the quinine killed the Cyano... now it is not. It does seem like the medication is not in the water. So I guess I do have a question... how could medication be removed from the tank? <Again... mostly the chemical family mentioned (second column from the left in Mendelevian periodic charts... to lesser extents other materials in the water... I would move the fishes, treat elsewhere, sans substrate, other carbonaceous materials> I'm to the point where I'm thinking I may have to let this run its course. I have to move to a new house in a week and break this entire tank down. I won't take these fish to any dealer for fear of introducing this resistant strain of ick into any other systems. If all the fish die, then I can let it sit fallow for a few months, though I wonder if the ick will be gone even with that course of action. I hate the thought of doing that, though. I have some copper safe and a test kit, which I have not used. I'm sure that if I put that in there, all that live rock will absorb copper and be worthless from that point on. I've attached the best picture I could take of the tang, not that you can make much of the photo. <Is "beat"... thin... Do consider treating all in an "empty" setting> Thomas Roach <Bob Fenner>

Re: Tang with powerful ich, re discussion Wednesday 11/17/2008 Hey, Mr. Fenner <Tom> I saw your reply posted on WetWeb, and haven't gotten the email yet so I wanted to add one bit of info. He does look 'beat' and thin... Wednesday night I gave him a FW dip to try and give him some relief, ph adjusted, for about 4 minutes. He still looks rough from that, but is eating well. I'm looking at some options for treating in a bare tank, and this is one of them, tell me your opinion.... When I move this tank this weekend, in theory I can set it up bare initially. I could leave the LR in a cooler with a powerhead while I do this, as long as necessary to let the LR go fallow. I've had a portion of LR, along with snails, hermits and starfish now for about a month, and I'm leaning towards leaving them separate even longer to fallow it out. The tank is 200 gallons, and running it with the filtration listed in the other email and quinine, would the bio media in the wet/dry and the FX5 be enough to eliminate ammonia/nitrite build up? <Should be, though there may be a lag time, a minor "mini-cycle"> Of course I'll be monitoring it, just wondering what you would expect. I think I'm not going to worry about the sand, as far as preserving bacteria. I'm going to give it a good freshwater rinsing to clean it before putting it back in, figuring the majority of the beneficial bacteria is on the LR anyhow. If this is the way to go, it will be done. Even if this fish passes, I'll be unable to add any other fish due to the presence of this scourge... I have to kill it one way or the other. Thomas Roach <Only experience can/will show here. Bob Fenner>

Pectoral Fin Dust/Spots (Saltwater Protozoan Treatment) � 11/17/08
Hi all!
<<Howdy!>>
I have powder brown tang in quarantine for about 6 weeks. He's been treated with Copper Safe for 1 month.
<<Too long… I would suggest no more than 14-days for such treatments. If the copper hasn't done its job in this period it likely isn't going to, and going much beyond this time frame increases the risk of more serious harm to the fish>>
He always has dust-like or white splotches on only his pectoral fins; some days he has barely anything noticeable and some days, well, its noticeable.
<<Hmm…>>
He's in a bare tank,
<<You should add a couple of short sections of suitably sized PVC pipe so this fish has a place in which to retreat. Keeping the fish in a �bare� system induces needless stress>>
eating a lot, behaving normally. He's even had a freshwater formalin dip for 3 minutes. Just want your take on it.
Thanks
<<Hard for me to say… If the spots are protozoan infestations then the initial copper treatment of the quarantine tank was unsuccessful and a second treatment is likely in order. If the treatment was none too recent, I would suggest a second �two-week� treatment otherwise give this fish a bit of time to recuperate first. Do also consider daily vacuuming of the bare tank bottom during the treatment period to further help by removing encysted Tomites. And definitely add some PVC pipe/other inert material for hiding places to help reduce this fishs stress level and thus the added burden on its immune system. And if you haven't already, please do read through our FAQs re Cryptocaryon and Copper treatment. A good starting point is here (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cuduration.htm), and then follow the associated links in blue. Regards, EricR>>

ICH on Blue Tang  11/10/08
Hi,
<<Hello>>
Sorry to bother you, but I need some advice.
<<No bother; let's see if I can help>>
I have a 125g display reef tank. I checked the fish yesterday morning and all was well. Last night at feeding time, I noticed my Blue tang (in the tank for 7 months) had several spots of what looks like ICH, when compared to photos on the web. I checked my tank parameters with Salifert tests and NO3 is undetectable, KH was at 8dkh, Ca was at 400, PO4 was undetectable. Water changes are done weekly (10%). I had noticed the week prior my pH was a little low when the lights are off at 7.98 when measured with a PinPoint monitor. I re-calibrated the probe and still got the same measure. I added a little buffer and changed half of the Chemi-Pure out. It has measured 8.05 with the lights out and 8.2 with the lights on.
<<Okay… Nothing too out of order here>>
My question is about what to do with my blue tang?
<<For the moment observe>>
I have a 24g QT I can put him in. Right now the fish is active, alert and eating when food is offered. I am soaking the food in Selcon and garlic. I can put him in QT, however after reading on WWM, that will not get rid of the ICH in my display tank.
<<Indeed… The tank would need to sit fallow for a good six weeks>>
No other tank mates are showing signs. I can let the tank run fallow per the description on WWM, but I do not think a 24g QT is large enough for the tank mates.
<<Likely not>>
Tank mates include 1 blue tang~3 inches, 1 sixline wrasse, 2 percula, 1 royal gramma, one neon goby, one midas blenny and a diamond goby. The last fish added was the royal gramma after 3 weeks in QT. QT was cut short because of scheduled work by the electric company for up to 12 hours.
<<I doubt this was/is a factor here>>
I only had enough back up air pumps for my display and since the QT tank is small and parameters change quicker in there I took the gamble and added early.
<<Was for the best>>
My concern is the stress of catching the tang, on him not me.
<<Agreed>>
What do you suggest? Crowd the QT and run fallow in the display; move only the Tang to QT and observe and treat with copper if necessary; or leave everything as is and watch water parameters closely and treat the food with garlic and Selcon.
<<I would opt for the third option here for now. This protozoan exists in most any system (even system's that sat fallow will usually be re-exposed through an incidental introduction before too long), and it's not unusual to see it manifest from time to time. If the system and fish are healthy, this stage will probably pass with little trouble for the tank's occupants. But, keep an eye on things and be ready to move the fish to a treatment tank should the need arise>>
I hope I gave all the information necessary.
<<Yes>>
By the way, the tank is a year old. Thank you in advance for your help.
Jo Anne
<<Happy to assist. EricR>>

The Horrors of Crypt and temporary specimen placement 10/31/08
Greetings, I hope this message finds you well.
<Tired and weary, but otherwise yes.>
I am writing because we need a suggestion on what course of action we should take in the following dilemma.
<Okay.>
The tank that I am writing in regards to is a 120 gallon. It was set up, and cycled beginning on August 10. It contains about 105 pounds of live rock. We cycled the tank using about a dozen blue damsels, and after about five weeks literally had to tear up the tank apart and remove everything in order to get those damsels out.
<Yeah, Damsels are great, if you want Damsels!>
During those five weeks, we added a flame angel, yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang, hippo Tang, Scooter Blenny, Long Nose Butterfly, a Bicolor Angel, and a white eel. We also added a scavenger crew with many snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.
<Way too much, too fast. The tank needs to mature, especially for the Blenny and Angel, then add slowly. Was everybody originally run through quarantine?>
To try to make a long story short, in our ordeal to get a damsels out of the tank we removed approximately one half of the water. When we replaced the water, we replaced it with fresh salted RO water that was considerably cooler than the water we removed. A couple of days later, we noticed the salt speckled signs of crypt on the Long Nose Butterfly. We immediately removed all of the fish from the tank and began treating them with copper in a 10 gallon tank which we upgraded to a 29 gallon. First we lost the Butterfly, shortly thereafter the Bicolor Angel and Yellow Tang.  As you can tell, I did not do my homework and read the valuable information found here on wetWebmedia.com.
<You will next time, I am sure!>
I now realize that we made many mistakes including the way that we cycled the tank, the amount of livestock we introduced in such a short time period, the fact that we did not utilize a quarantine tank, our choice in livestock, etc. Believe me, we have learned the very hard way from these needless mistakes; the ones that you warn about here over and over again.
<Living is sometimes how we learn.>
We have the five remaining fish in a 29 gallon, bare-bottom tank with a few fake coral and a piece of PVC pipe for the eel. Filtration is being performed with a Penguin 350. The 120 gallon tank has been fallow for a couple of weeks, and we are going to wait out a full six or seven weeks to allow the crypt to go through its stages.
<Do also be aware of the dangers treating the eel with copper http://www.wetwebmedia.com/crypteels.htm.  Letting the tank run fallow is a good idea.>
Our problem is that the 29 gallon tank builds up ammonia quickly and we are (and have been) performing heavy water changes daily, and the 120 gallon tank will not be ready for occupancy until November 24. This 29 gallon tank never had a chance to cycle.
<Would not matter with the copper treatment.>
We did not put live rock into it because of the copper treatments and the fact that it was never properly cycled in the first place. We have an empty 20 gallon long tank as well as a 10 gallon, 5.5 gallon, and 2.5 gallon. We were planning on utilizing the 20 gallon long as a small frag tank (after cycling it properly), and setting up the 29 gallon as a FOWLR tank. (Too much, too fast, I realize that now).
<If tied into your main system, add it asap (after using them for quarantine). The extra volume is always helpful, with the end task for each tank coming later.>
What would be our best course of action at this time with regards to keeping these remaining fish well until November 24? These water changes are killer, but we will of course do whatever to save these remaining fish.  What would be your course of action given the fact that you had the identical means that we do?
<I would either keep up the water changes, get a larger volume quarantine, or even find a new home for these fish for the time being. There is really no easy way around this situation.>
We are open to any suggestions, and thank you very much for your help. Respectfully, Jeff
<Best of luck to you, it does get easier/better. Scott V.>

Re: The Horrors of Crypt and temporary specimen placement 11/1/08
In reply, I have one more related question: in a 29 gallon tank, how much water should we be changing out daily? The ammonia level reaches between 0.5 and 1.0 daily. Thank you and best regards, Jeffrey Castaldo
<Keep changing however much you need to keep the level below 1.0, ideally at or below the .5 reading. These are already stressed fish, the lower the ammonia the better. Scott V.>

Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/01/08
Hi fish gurus. I have run into a snag in my treatment of ich, and I'm not sure how to proceed. My 150 gallon FOWLR has been running fallow for two weeks. I have two twenty gallon quarantine tanks. In one, I have my blue tang, Sailfin tang, and Banggai cardinal. In the other is a flame angel, a yellow tang, and two clowns. Today is the fourteenth day of cupramine. I have been testing vigilantly, dosing accordingly, and performing water changes to keep ammonia down. (I have bio-wheel filters on these tanks that I pirated from another tank in the home, the ammonia keeps creeping up to 0.25, so I keep doing 25 or 50 percent water changes twice day).
<Okay, a lot of work, but the price we sometimes have to pay!>
So here's my problem: The spots disappeared from my fish a few days into treatment. Then, a week into treatment, a spot appeared on the blue tang. I guess in spite of my diligence, I must have let the copper get too low briefly and a free-swimmer got to my blue tang. The spot finally disappeared today. So now I guess there is a tomont is my quarantine tank which will release a jillion free-swimmers in the next week or two???
<Could be, likely.>
The two courses of action I am considering are A) to continue the copper for two more weeks, though I'm afraid that would be too toxic to my tangs, or B) move the blue tang and his tankmates to the neighboring quarantine tank temporarily and do a 100% water change and careful rinsing of the filter, then refill and put everybody back; the idea there being to hopefully wash out that tomont. I'm afraid that idea just won't work.
<Nothing is 100% foolproof, if nothing else the fish can bring it along from tank to tank. I would do as you suggest and move them to one tank, cleaning/sterilizing the other.>
Any suggestions? As always, folks, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience. Elise
<Tons of work, but it will be worthwhile for you. Welcome, Scott V.>

Crypt 10/30/08
My powder brown tang, clown tang, spiney puffer, foxface, clown fish, lawnmower blenny and coral beauty live in a 100 gallon tank. I just finished a fallow for a month and used copper on them. All looked good but after 10 days the powder brown is showing signs of salt grains again. I am a little frustrated. I do not mind repeating the process again keeping the tank fallow longer, but the main problem I had in my 40 gallon hospital tank was keeping the ammonia down. I struggled with the ammonia level and never could get it below 2.0.
<eek!>
I did a 5 gallon water change every other day and still could not get it down while using kent detox ammo lock and amquel plus. Before I get my fish out of my display tank any advice. I just wish the tank could cycle and be done with but I putting in the copper will never allow it to correct?
<You need to first figure out what is causing the fish to stress in the first place. Healthy fish should have the ability to kick ich on their own if provided a stable environment. Since you already know you have problems keeping a healthy QT tank, my suggestion is to leave the fish in the main display and figure out what it is that is stressing them out. Are you having temperature fluctuations, aggression between fish, water quality issues? While you stabilize your tank, feed them garlic soaked foods and keep a close eye on things. If they seem to get worse, back to QT it is, but take better care with bigger water changes if you have to.>
Please help
<Regards, Jessy>

Re: Crypt 10/31/08
100 gallon tank, I have 70 pounds of live rock my PH is 8.2 ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrates under 20 the only thing that maybe the problem is I do not have a sump, I have two maxi jet power heads, an AquaC Remora Pro skimmer with the Mag pump, and a heater all inside the main tank can it really be electricity in the water?
<Apart from the many other more likely things I listed, stray voltage in the tank could be a cause of stress for your fish. You can check it with a volt meter that you can get most anywhere.  Jessy>

Kill Ich in QT, 10/28/08
WWM,
<Hello>
I must be using the wrong search words because I know the answer has to be here somewhere, but I can't find it. I have an empty QT (fish died) with ich in it. I want to speed the process of killing off the ich that is still in the QT. What temperature and for how long until the ich is dead? Will 90* for two weeks do it? Or would I still have to wait at least 4-weeks? Thank you.
<Best bet is to just empty and dry the QT, no ich for sure, otherwise at least 6 weeks, but no guarantee there.>
<Chris>

Water change issue/pH, FOWLR spg, Crypt... 10/23/08
Hello,
<Hi>
I've been having an issue that I just started to realize recently. I have been conducting water changes, and finding that the next day my pH is rather low. Around 6.5.
<In the tank? Does it stay here consistently?>
However when I test my water prior to putting it into the tank the pH is perfect. I believe this is due to the oxygen being generated by the pump mixing the salt and everything else in the tub prior to me pumping it into the tank. My tank is a 120 FOWLR. I usually conduct 30-50% water changes every 2-3weeks. So basically that's one issue, is how do you think i can go about balancing out my PH more efficiently right around water changes.
<How long are you mixing your water for before adding it to your tank, make sure you allow 24 hours for everything to mix correctly and stabilize. Also do you buffer your water change water prior to adding the salt? See here for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marphalk.htm >
What is the ideal salinity for a FOWLR? I do have live rock, and nice purple coral growing. I keep it usually around 1.019-.21
<Too low, close as possible to natural levels, 1.026, the creatures in your tank have spend thousands of generations adapting to this fairly stable parameter.>
What do you guys think about the AquaC Urchin Pro in sump skimmers?
<Love Aqua-C.>
And for a future reference, what's a good way to treat ich without medication?
<The only way I know of is using the tank swap method, where you switch the fish between 2 bare bottom tanks, completely cleaning and drying the tank not in use.>
Or perhaps help prevent it, or stop it from getting worse during beginning stages.
<Quarantine, Quarantine, Quarantine, and have I mentioned Quarantine?>
I've been told to soak food in garlic extract...
<Not useful for ich treatment, or much of anything really, does seem to stimulate a fish's appetite a bit, but so do many other products that also add value to your fish's food. A nice article from Steven Pro http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php >
Thanks,
Sam
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/28/08
Hello Mr. Fenner,
<Bob is out away from the net for a bit. Scott V. with you here.>
No resolve yet, but updates for you and results of things attempted...
<Okay.>
I went with the Quick Cure treatment, with much worry. I used daily for four days, one drop per gallon, monitoring water conditions and carefully observing the fish. Both tangs did fine through the treatment, and the ich disappeared for the four days. It did not kill the bio filter, either that or monitoring of the water conditions plus immediate water change after day four prevented any issues.
However on day five, after rerunning the skimmer and carbon, the next day the ich returned worse than ever, again only on the Atlantic Blue Tang.  This was Saturday morning. I had one treatments worth of Quinine Sulfate left, which I administered immediately. (I have not as of yet located the Cloroquine Sulfate, my wife's Vet was not familiar with it.)
<A treatment of growing popularity, though still hard to find. Bob Goemans had a great article on the subject in the Sept. 08 FAMA, with some sources for Chloroquine phosphate, one of which is http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this.>
The Quinine must have severely reduced the ich, as Sunday and Monday mornings there were some present on the fish, but not near the number as Saturday morning.
<It can be an effective treatment.>
Prescription says to treat these fish in a nine day continual bath... but I'm thinking that perhaps twelve days or longer might be appropriate for this resistant strain. I have never seen anything quite like this. Again, I'll follow up with results/progress, but if you awaken in the night with an amazing idea, please reply!
<I will drop this in Bob’s box just in case he does have more to add when he gets back. Do keep us posted.>
Thanks again, we're struggling but pressing on...
<Welcome, a steady course my friend. Scott V.>

Copperband Ich or Lymph...? Using WWM   10/22/08 This is my third time sending a question over to you guys, and I want to start by thanking you for the great advice. I have been searching for a Copperband for 2-months trying to find a good specimen that is eating and is not too big. I finally found an average sized specimen that was eating at the LFS, however, it has some issues on in its pectoral and caudal fins. <I see these> I have been wasting so much gas driving around looking for a good specimen I decided to buy it anyway and treat it in my QT. Please take a look at the pictures I attached. It looks like white "stuff" and "spots" in the fins. I think it is ich but I have also read that Copperbands are prone to something else called lymphocytes sp?? <Lymphocystis... gone over on WWM> I have used hyposalinity in the past to cure tangs of ich with good success. However, I don't know if that would be good for the Copperband because that is a lot of time in QT (at least 6-weeks) Is there a better way of treating Copperbands that you recommend? <Also posted> I have also read that copper is tough on them, what about Cupramine copper or maybe formalin? I am open to any suggestions. Please let me know what brand you recommend as well. Thank you, Sorry the pictures are not that great, it was the best I could get. <Please learn to/use the search tool, indices on WWM... start reading here re: http://wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htm This to me does not look viral... perhaps not Protozoan either... could be "just" environmental... I would read re Lymph, Crypt, Chelmon Health... Bob Fenner>

Re: Copperband Ich or Lymph...? Likely Crypt  10/22/08 Mr. Fenner, I read pages of great info on WWM and I think formalin was the recommended treatment of choice for ich on a Chelmon. <Mmm... I would skip ahead to later, greater technology here... and quickly read, try to acquire Chloroquine Phosphate... Perhaps a dip/bath now in diluted formalin, aerated pH-adjusted freshwater and thence to quarantine/treatment further...> In one word please, on a Chelmon would you personally use formalin/bath, formalin/dips, Cupramine or hypo. I just want to be sure because my Copperband does now look like its fins were sprinkled with salt. Just looking for a little reassurance, thanks so much for your time. <Sorry to not be able to direct you to a complete set of ideas, methods re Chelmon, Crypt, Quinine cpd. use... But do read re the search tools on your computer, WWM. BobF> re: Copperband Ich or Lymph...? 10/23/08 Thank you. I did the dip last night and it did get some of the white spots off, and he seemed to feel a little better. However, the Copperband is still covered with ich. I found the Quinine you mentioned online, but I don't think it is going to get here in time. This morning the fish is laying on its side breathing hard. He gets up and swims around for a little then goes back down. Not good. <Agreed. Very bad> Question, although I had a strong cycle in my QT I must have lost some of the beneficial bacteria while I was shopping for a Chelmon that eats, because I was getting a little ammonia spike despite the fact I was "feeding the empty tank." <Happens> So, if my Chelmon does die, Can I put a piece of cocktail shrimp in the tank and leave it be for a month (testing water of course) to get another hard cycle and also kill of the ich that is in my QT? <Better to just add a "pinch" of dried food every few days...> Or is there some small chance the ich can host the cocktail shrimp <No> and live longer than 4-6 weeks? <Yes> Thanks again! <Welcome. B>