CryptF28

FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis 28

Cryptocaryon and other protozoan parasites are hard to "make out" on light colored fishes.

Ich, Treatment, rdg.... 10/14/08 I have been battling against ich for the last few weeks. So far I have lost 2 fish and now have 4 remaining. Last week I dropped the SG down to 1.019. Before this weekend my Yellow Tang was covered in ich and when I got home today from out of town my Tang was spotless. I was wondering if the ich is completely gone or if I should medicate just in case. <A SG of 1.019 is not low enough to effect the parasite. The fish need to be removed from the display tank and treated in a hospital tank. See here for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm .> Also my water temperature was around 74 degrees. Any help would be greatly appreciated. <Give a look through our disease section, lots to learn here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm .> <Chris>

Ich treatment and cause? 9/11/08 Marine Ich.. Good morning crew! <Hello> I believe I have Marine Ich in my tank. I have a few questions. I spent hours last night scouring the WWM and now my head is spinning..I have a fair amount of questions just making sure I read everything properly, and there are sometimes a few opinions in the WWM <Ok> I've done all the proper husbandry including quarantine tank for new fish.. and don't get it.. We have "finished" adding new members to our reef tank about 4 months ago. The only thing different we have done is added 2 pieces of coral last week, and tired a new food "Reef Bugs" Yesterday morning not a problem. <Did you QT the coral?> Come home from work and there is what looks to be marine ich over 3 fish. Our purple tang had about 30 "grains of salt" looking ich on it including its fins, our chevron tang, about 10 "grains", and Flameback angle 20 "grains". This morning, the chevron had about 5 grains, the Flameback 10, but the purple tang perhaps had slightly less, but where the grains are now have 1/4" diameter light spots surrounding the "grains" (he also seems to be the only one going to the cleaner shrimp and trying to scratch). <Sounds like ich to me.> I hoped it was the air bubbles last night, but the light spots this morning is for sure an indications it's not air bubbles. <Agreed> So, is it possible marine ich can lie dormant for that long and then pop up out of no where? <Can stay in the fish's gills where it is impossible to detect without gill scrapings, also could have come in on the new corals.> Is it possible the new coral brought in the ich? <Yes> Reef Bugs - I don't think that could do it? <Doubt it.> We chose not to have a UV sterilizer after reading pro/cons. We thought that if we quarantined properly, we would not need it. <Is not a cure, but can help contain an infection.> Should we have used one? Could we have prevented this? <I don't believe the UV would have saved you from this situation. As far as preventing, its more a matter of limiting risk rather than a guarantee of being ich free, QTing greatly lowers the chances of introducing ich but sometimes a fish can get through without showing symptoms.> Now on to the cure, on the WWM, there are compelling cases for copper based treatments, and formalin.. do a copper with hyposalinity.. Skip a Methylene Blue 5% freshwater bath because the symptoms are not that bad on the fish? <When dealing with fish particularly sensitive to copper I would go another route, either formalin which can also be tough on fish or quinine which has it's own set of problems. Any time you engage in chemotherapy like this there are certain risks with each method.> 3 out of the 5 fish in the tank have symptoms.. treat all 5? Hospital tank(s) 1 per fish or can you stick them all in 1 tank (no sand/ substrate and use pvc to make hiding places/homes)? Daily water changes to keep water quality ok. (last night I read the suggestion to keep a separate / spare sponge filter running for situations like this..will get one going!) <As long as your QT is large enough you can keep all the fish together.> The LFS opens in a few hours so I'm ready to spring into action.. <Good.> Time to make another donation to the WWM. I still wish you had a pay- pal account going! <<Mmm, we do... is at the bottom of most pages: "Donate". RMF>> <Thanks for the donation.> Peter Baron <Chris>

For Chris: Re: Ich treatment and cause? Re: Ich treatment and cause? 9/11/08 "Now on to the cure, on the WWM, there are compelling cases for copper based treatments, and formalin.. do a copper with hyposalinity.. Skip a Methylene Blue 5% freshwater bath because the symptoms are not that bad on the fish? <When dealing with fish particularly sensitive to copper I would go another route, either formalin which can also be tough on fish or quinine which has it's own set of problems. Any time you engage in chemotherapy like this there are certain risks with each method.>" Is the treatment I outlined above ok? Or do you suggest something different? Your response has me puzzled? ""3 out of the 5 fish in the tank have symptoms.. treat all 5? Hospital tank(s) 1 per fish or can you stick them all in 1 tank (no sand/substrate and use pvc to make hiding places/homes)? Daily water changes to keep water quality ok. (last night I read the suggestion to keep a separate / spare sponge filter running for situations like this..will get one going!)"" how large of a hospital tank is needed to keep 1 - 4" chevron tang 1 - 3" purple tang 1 - 2" Flameback angel 1 - 3" maroon clownfish 1 - 3" zebra barred Dartfish.. I have a 30 gal ready to go.. is that not big enough? Get a few 10gals to help out? Plain old HOT filter just to help out? but daily water changes for water quality? Correct? <Yep, that is what I would do.> Thanks, Peter <Welcome> <Chris>

Swissguard Basslet/ich 9/11/08 Hi there, I have been reading and reading on your site for days and I have learned a lot but I thought I would ask about a less aggressive way to fight (what appears to be) ich/crypt. I had my Swissguard Basslet in QT just shy of a month and he wasn't the happiest guy (there isn't tons of cover) <These little basses do need this> but he was okay. Then I moved him to my 4+ year old 28 gallon nano reef. <And though small in size, they need more room than this> Long-time occupants are 3 shrimp gobies (wheeler, orange-spotted, hi-fan banded) and two tiger pistol shrimps, a Tailspot blenny, a small solar fairy wrasse, <This as well> 2 peppermint shrimps and a cleaner shrimp. He was much happier in this tank, eating well, showing a lot more interest in his surroundings and a lot more personality. I really fell for him. :) Well, after about 4 or 5 days, he developed what appears to be ich. <Mmm, likely Cryptocaryon was/is resident in your main display... the stress brought on its expression> He doesn't seem to have lots of obvious white bumps although he has a few and it is hard to tell with his stripes/coloration and he isn't scratching but he is doing this little quiver thing and he looks a little dinged up and well, I have been keeping saltwater for 20 years and my instinct is that he has ich. I moved him back to QT <Mmm, I would not have done this> but he immediately got very morose and jammed himself into a rock and wouldn't eat. I was hesitant to treat with copper because I have found some fish to be quite sensitive to it, and there is a flame angel in QT, <Now infested as well...> anyway. Well, I moved him back and he perked up and ate until he had a very round tummy, but I don't know what to do. I am going to do a freshwater dip (with or without methelyne blue? ) <... see WWM re> tonight. Is this something I should do on a daily basis? <... What for? No> The cleaner shrimp does not appear to be tending to him. If I leave him there and raise the temperature and dip him--and maybe get a UV sterilizer, is there hope? <Mmm, always as long as there is life for me> No other occupants have even a hint of it and I hate to disrupt them. I have a UV on my 150 and I never have any problems with ich in that tank. Also--If I go the lowered salinity route, I would have to remove all the corals--and the shrimp, correct? I assume they can't handle the hyposalinity. I hate to separate the shrimp from their gobies. Thanks for your help and your site. Jeanne <Let's have you start reading here: http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparasittksfaqs.htm and on to the linked files above... till you understand your options here. Bob Fenner>

Re: Swissguard Basslet/ich and new question about sexy shrimp 9/11/08 Good morning, I really appreciate the prompt response. You certainly have better things to do than read yet another letter about ich. I realize the ich must have been present in the nano. <Ahh!> Everyone there has been there at least one year and several two or more, and I am very careful about quarantine so I wasn't prepared to see it show up. <Can be "the Dickens" to eradicate completely> I also realize it is a delicate balance and although I maintain very good water quality, we had a power outage several months ago that probably caused some latent problems. I did a freshwater dip on the Basslet which he tolerated surprisingly well (stopped at two LFS and neither had methelyne blue--is this unusual? <Mmm, not really... some do, others don't> I mean, do I need to go to a pharmacy? ) <I'd order online...> and I am not quite ready to go the hyposalinity route. I did know the fairy wrasse would have to move to a bigger tank (my ornate wrasse won't tolerate him in the 150) but my research had indicated that 20 gallons was the minimum size for the Basslet. Is it because of the instability of nanos? <Both this and moving room> Before writing you, I had carefully read the fallow tank article(s) but I was hoping for an interim method. I gather that short of waiting, environmental cleaners, etc. there really isn't one. The consensus on garlic (specifically, a product like Kordon Ich-Attack) is that it may have some preventive qualities, but does nothing to affect a cure? <Not much consistently> There seems to be some dissent on your site about this. <There are several of us here... a couple dozen... more than this over time... all have their opinions, and yes, these do vary> One last (tedious) question, and then I hope to leave you alone for awhile. A few months ago, I put two sexy shrimp in this nano, and although they hung around for a few days (although nowhere near the small bubble tip anemone, as I had hoped), they quickly vanished. I suspect the peppermint shrimp who seem big and aggressive to me. Fish ignored them (Basslet wasn't there then). However, Blue Zoo Aquatics (from whom they were purchased) said that unless I had camelback shrimp (which I do not) none of the shrimp in the tank are the culprit. I would appreciate your feedback. Thank you so much as always. <Mmm, the Peppermint would generally not eat the Sexy Shrimp... but any actually could. Bob Fenner>

Slippery slope..., Ich treatment 9/5/08 Hello guys, <Hi> I am pretty sure I am in over my head here! Last Saturday night, I tore my 72 gallon reef apart to gather up my fish for QT as they had come down with a case of ich. <Not fun.> I purchased a 26 gallon bow front for a hospital tank. The guy at the LFS told me of a product called SuperBac Aquarium (nitrifying bacteria). <Not familiar with this product, I like Bio-Spira, but only if the store keeps it refrigerated.> He said that for a hospital tank, I could administer the product, and put the fish in provided that the water temp and spec grav were the same as my reef tank. <Ok> I used 15 gallons of water from my 72, and filled the rest with stored water with same temperature and spec gravity. He then recommended a product called Ich-x to treat the ich. <Malachite Green and formalin, strong stuff, not much room for error.> After administering this product, my one Tomini Tang started to breath extremely heavy. I did an immediate water change (25%). He died the next morning. I stopped with the medication. Then later that day, I noticed the other fish breathing heavy. (2 Black Clowns, 2 Flame Angels, 1Coral Beauty Angel, 1 Mimic Tang and a Scopas Tang). I tested the water and discovered a nasty ph drop (about 7.5). After some excellent advice from one of your team, I added a powerhead to the 26 gallon, opened the lid, and alas, my pH came back very nice the next day. <Good> The pH has been strong at 8.2 ish all week. Alk is steady at 2.2. On Tuesday, since my pH remained stable, I administered a product called Coppersafe for the ich. On Wednesday my nitrite levels spiked to 0.5 as well as my ammonia increased to 2.0. <The copper will kill off your biofilter, will need lots of water changes to keep up the water quality. Also several of your fish do not handle copper well, but I would still use it over the Malachite Green.> I changed 20% of the water. Then today my levels were still high. Nitrite at 1.0 and ammonia at 2.0. that was this afternoon, so I changed 10%. Then tonight (10 hours later) after test results showing NO2 to be 1, and ammonia to be 2, I changed another 25%. I also put in a piece of my live rock (although I thought this was bad for the ich treatment). <I would remove this, for one it will absorb some of the copper, making it difficult to maintain therapeutic levels, and secondly the copper will kill off much of the life on the rock, making it more difficult to maintain water quality.> I had also stopped feeding as of this morning. <Feed as little as possible until you get a grasp on the ammonia/nitrite.> Also please note that I have replaced the Coppersafe medication proportionately for the amounts of water I have changed. <Good, just make sure you are using the appropriate test kit.> Also, I dripped the new water so the water changes happened very slowly. <Ok, but probably not necessary as long as you match parameters.> It took about 5 gallons per hour or so. My goal is to keep the water clean enough so I can cure the ich and get my fish back in the 72 gallon (which tests nicely). <Will take 6-8 weeks to have most of the ich die off in the main tank.> Is this going to work? <Should, just be careful not to cross contaminate the main tank with anything from the hospital tank.> Is it also true that if I put a uv light on my main tank, this will also cure the ich? <Not really, will help control it some, but running the tank fallow for 6-8 weeks should do it alone.> If that is the case, would I be better to put my fish back in my reef tank and install a uv? <Will not effectively cure the tank.> Both my tanks run with a temp of 80 degrees and a specific gravity of 1.025. <Good> main tank info: 72 gallon bow front metal halide lighting with florescent lights skimmer sump (20 gallon no bio balls) activated carbon pH 8.4 alk 1.7-2.0 no2 .05 max no3 0 ammonia 0 calcium 420 <Ok> hospital tank info: 26 gallon bow front lid with florescent light (lid open) 2 hang off filters heater powerhead 1 piece of live rock <As above, I would remove.> a few pieces of pvc for the fish to hide crushed coral base of about 1 inch <Would remove this too, also will react and absorb the medication, just run it bare bottom. This also allows you to easily siphon the bottom of the tank, hopefully removing many of the ich tomonts.> Incidentally, I have abused this site a lot this last couple of weeks and am making a contribution now. <Thanks!> Thank you so much for all of your knowledge and patience. <Welcome. If you have not already, please read here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .> <Chris>

Ich and Quarantine Attacking Ich-Quick! 9/1/08 Hello all, <Scott F. here tonight!> I just read your article for battling the dreaded ich. This is by far the best explanation I've read, and I intend on following it to the letter. However, I never set up a quarantine tank and I'm afraid my fish are going to pay the price, unless the plan I have works. <Okay...> I'm planning (now) on getting a 20 gallon QT, I already have my first skimmer/filter that I saved and extra heater. I'm not sure I can get the QT up and running fast enough unless I steal some Live rock and sand but will that be enough? <You really don't want live rock or sand in a quarantine/hospital system. These materials will potentially absorb medications, and the collateral loss of life to the microfauna living within them is unacceptable to most people.> My Coral Beauty is showing the worse signs and succumbing to the ich quite fast. This whole mess began yesterday morning and is taking over. I've combed the internet and visited two of my most trusted LFS and of course all answers vary greatly. (Garlic, cleaner shrimp, freshwater dip, and tried them all) None of them have made a dent so I'm going to follow the advice I have gotten from this site if I'm not too late. Please don't take that to mean you were a last resort, I try to use "keywords" on my search engine to visit the specific problem but the answers are to different. Sorry, going off subject. My Tank: Dragon Goby Coral Beauty Ocellaris Clown Pearly Jawfish Cleaner Shrimp 7 red legged hermits 2 snails 1 cleaner shrimp 30 gal tank ( 30"L x 12"W x 18"H ) 16lbs LR - 20lbs LS PH: 7.8 Ammonia: 0 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: 10 Salinity: 1.025-26 Will my 4 fishies be ok in a 20 gallon tank for a month? <They should be, but you will need to keep at the water changes and check for copper concentration (if you're going that route) to keep a proper therapeutic dose going. Stay right on top of things and you should successfully beat the Ich outbreak.> I added the contents of my tank because I was wondering, as I asked earlier, could I steal some live rock and sand out of my main tank and replace it to speed up the cycling process for my QT tank? <Better, IMO to use a sponge filter or other media that has been in your display system's sump for a while to help "colonize" beneficial bacteria. You could also utilize one of the proprietary "bacteria in a bottle" products to help speed things along and maintain water quality during your frequent water changes. It is a bit of a challenge, but you can do it. As a matter of practice, I always keep a few sponge filters and other biological filtration media in my display system's sump, so that there is an active biological filtration potential whenever I need it (such as when I set up my quarantine system for new fishes, etc.). It's a really great habit to get into, IMO!> Sorry if this sounds like ranting but I'm scrambling to save the fish now. I don't mind learning from my mistakes but I'm sure the fish do. <Understood!> Any advice would be greatly appreciated. You guys have been very helpful in the past and I thank you again in advance. Laurie <I'm glad we could help. Just stay on top of things and keep at the water changes! You can beat this thing. Regards, Scott F.>

Some summary of Crypto /Ich could help 8/04/08 Hi there to Bob and the crew at WWM, I have been reading a lot of the different "posts" regarding Ich and Velvet over the last 5 days, the information is massive and informative. <Mmm, yes... "If" a jumble as well...> In the effort to "self Help" and having by nature an inquiring mind I have spent many a waking ( and should be sleeping for that matter) hour researching your great site. BUT, I have come to a conclusion.....There are many different stories to tell on Ich/ Velvet/ Crypto etc....and finding all the solutions it is difficult to decide on a course of action...whilst trying to decide its quite possible that this very procrastination leads to loss of fish life....which is distressing whether it is a $10 Chromis or a $200 Purple Tang... <Yes> Even among the experienced reefers in your offices (?) there are differences of opinion/strategy...... <Yes> May I suggest an article or area which is basically an action plan for the lesser experienced..... <Ahh! Now the crux... and my suggestion, request in turn... For you to pen such. I will help you edit if you'd like, and place for pay> Maybe you all could get together and share the differing experiences and decide on a set of procedures to be implemented quickly without huge lengthy research that then allowed the time to do that very research.... <A good to great idea, but not "practical"... not sufficient time, and as you state, there are varying (some strong) opinions on which route/preferences in treatment modes/procedures to take. I want to state though that there are some quite useful syntheses of such info. available... on the Net, by Steven Pro, others (these are linked on WWM, easily accessible, free) and in-print... Ed Noga, Bob Goeman's... et al... I am not opposed to producing, buying/posting syntheses of already about work, input, if I sense a need...> Also, I am presuming that the Marine hobby progresses all the time, so some of the older 5 year old posts may or may not be as relevant as more current information or trends....it is difficult for me to sort these out on my own unless of course I travel the same roads.....But that can also lead to losses..... <Agreed... again... this universe, human and not, and certainly such humble devices as WWM are "not perfect"> One thing is Crystal clear to me and that is WWM has the best available information being collect from a variety of sources and based on many and varied experiences, the challenge is to catalog it into a "filtered" end knowledge base that can help effectively and without contradiction at a time of urgency. <What you said... so very well...> So, there is my request, a "Latest Trend/ meeting of the minds" article / advise sheet on the most common of challenge to the hobby of Marine fish Husbandry. The sheet(s) could be updated once every 6 months or when a new revelation is discovered. <Heeeee! Great idea/s!> Thank you for all the efforts Bob and crew, the site is amazing, Vast and deep as the ocean itself. Mark <And now a very real request Mark... Do you have time, interest in joining us, the Crew, in responding to such queries, or writing such works, or both? We are constantly on the look out for sensitive, intelligent fellow petfish types who have a capacity with written English, experience to relate, an "open ended" personality re helping others. I do wish that there were more time, folks to generate such content, processes as you relate and hint at above. I am 'all for' such activity, but know that my daily and more schedule, business/es of life limit much addition (at this or any foreseeable time). Do please mull over my very real request here that you join us... I will share your principal idea with the present Crew. Bob Fenner>

Re: What do you think? Article... 8/4/08 I personally think its a great idea myself....Or, maybe we can just bring up to date the current Ich / crypto / velvet info pages Ich - http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm Velvet - http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm ???? Andrew <Thank you for this input Andrew... I agree... just don't have much in the way of solid ideas on how to bring about. Cheers, BobF>

Re: Some summary of Crypto /Ich could help 8/5/08 Bob, Thanks for your prompt reply. <Welcome> Your request, whilst most kind, is probably not a great idea. <Rats!> Despite my belief and practice of research and wide reading on all endeavors I become involved in (probably a throw back to the study of Laws and economics earlier in life), I have in fact been a marine reef hobbyist for the sum total of 3 months. I fear I would cause more problems than I may actually solve with my limited experience. <Ah, yes> Perhaps as I gain more practical experience (and knowledge by research) I may add value. <A hallmark of a "complete" economic, human cycle> On that note of further experience and research....and believe me I have read widely......here is a case for you consideration... I have a 4 foot tank, salt 1.0245, Ammonia 0.0, Nitrate 0.0, Nitrite 0.0 KH 9.0, Calc 450, Phos 0.0, PH 8.3 Temp 26C Housing: 1 X 4" Hippo ( Blue) Tang (in res for 5 weeks), 2 X 1" Percula Clowns (in res for 4 weeks),1X Cleaner wrasse (in res for 5 weeks,1 X 3" <Mmm, this Labroides will likely die... if not, cause behavioral issues in your system... too few customers... time can only tell> Fox Face (in res for 2 weeks), 1 X Rockskipper Blenny (in res for 2 weeks), 1 X Linckia Star, <Yikes... not often hardy, adaptable> 1 X Black Cucumber, 2 X peppermint shrimp ...Various snails, a torch Coral and a Catalaphyllia....no partridge in a pear tree. All inhabitants faired well together there were no discussions over who had what position in the tank. 4 days ago the Hippo Tang began to scratch, occasionally....a day or two later a bit more. I promptly removed it to my Quarantine tank. No white spots have developed; it is still eating, although now sulking a little in its new sparse surroundings. <Mmm, this is a good long while to "have no spots develop"... IF the previous marks were/are a protozoan parasite, your system is infested... the fishes there will/would likely show signs... but... there might well be a sort of "stasis" situation... a balance so to speak, twixt the hosts...> My LFS suggested a dose of Tri Sulfa, <Of no use here whatsoever> which I did.....still Scratching after two days of that...But still no white spots....still eating....but I have noticed the fish sometimes yawns. <Good observation, portends nothing> After another 3 - 4 hours of research I am beginning to suspect Gill Fluke... <Mmmm, ahhh...> If you agree, I would start a treatment with Praziquantel.. rather than Cupramine. <In the "quarantine", for the Paracanthurus only?> My research tells me Tangs prefer not to be exposed to Copper...so I would use that as a last resort. I understand that significant success has been achieved with Gill Flukes using Praziquantel. <Yes> If not that what could cause itching with no overt diagnosable symptoms? Can it simply be behavior? <A few things and yes> ((Lastly, not for publication, If you would like to discuss by phone my participation at WWM, let me know and we can plan a teleconference)) Best Regards Mark (Melbourne, Australia) <I strongly sense your rapid ramping up capacity for learning, sharing... Let's hold off a few more months and see how you fare here shall we? I would either not treat the tang at all, but simply keep it under close scrutiny... or try the Prazi (not "too" toxic, debilitating). I would also read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm Mmm, and the linked files above... to gain insight as to your situation, possibilities. Bob Fenner>

Re: Some summary of Crypto /Ich could help 8/7/08 Bob, Thanks for your reply. <Welcome> Still no signs of white spots on any fish in DT or the Blue Tang in the QT I treated the Blue Tang with Praziquantel for 48hrs in the QT. It has basically stopped flashing and is swimming normally, not eating all that well, but...it's been moved and is in bare surroundings so that to me seems understandable. So, no spots, now no itching,.... my plan is to observe two more days and if there are no further contra-indications I will replace the tang into the DT based on the fact I have clearly misdiagnosed white spot. <Okay> The more likely disease was/is gill flukes, or it could have been nothing at all and the behavioral change is symptomatic of an environment change. Your thoughts would be appreciated as always. Best Regards Mark <Don't have any further... but haven't woken up much as yet today. B>

Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08 Hello, <Hi there> I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper. <... a very poor idea> What do you think? Would you advise this? <No and no> The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand. <... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS> There would be no inverts or LR at all. <So?> I plan to treat using Cupramine. <A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here> How long should I treat the tank? Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks. Thank you for any help you can provide. -Peter <Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08 Hello, <Peter> Thank you for the quick reply. <Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here> So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult? <Adsorbed> Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary? <No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work> Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks. <... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...> I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper. Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM. -Peter

Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/25/08 Hello again, <Peter> Thank you for the reply. I looked into Chloroquine phosphate. Unfortunately I don't have access to this medicine. <Ah, yes... perhaps worth the time, trouble to try to buy through veterinary or human sources...> It would probably take me a long time to obtain it and by then, all my fish would be infested with ich. Interesting enough, my 2 triggers have yet to display any signs of ich, <Balistids are "tougher", often sub-clinical> while all the other fish have at least a few specks. But I guess that's what makes Triggers so resilient. Again, I appreciate the help. But I have to act fast, so hyposalinity will have to do for now. If ich does come back months down the road, I will be better prepared with a proper sized QT. -Peter <You may well be faced with, defaulting to a (very common) choice of having an ongoing-infested system... See WWM re. Bob Fenner>

Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate 7/22/08 To the Crew at WWM: <Gene> For many years you've helped fellow hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight I've been having for YEARS against ich. <Please do> Before I begin I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place (mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me, especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for about a week <A very good practice> and then begin hyposalinity therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or so. Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system. In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT. <Good spiel> As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4 - 6 weeks. Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55 gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG 1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a different route. The following is what I did next. On 5/19 I began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose. This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28 and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5. On July 8th. all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July 22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!! At this point I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change. (Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms). The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor crabs. Gene <Thank you for sharing your information and passion Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner>

Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite... Commercial Crypt remedies, prevention - 07/19/08 Hello, I was wondering if anyone on the team has had any good experience with giving a marine fish with crypt a freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as copper treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)? <Some folks report success with such... perhaps their trials involve fishes with only superficial infestations... maybe these are principally only symptomatic...> I'm more of a Cupramine guy myself (in a separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would like me to use freshwater baths exclusively in the main display / selling tanks which also house invertebrate life. <Mmm... I strongly suggest that they, you do a bit of further considering here... I would do FW baths on arrival (pH adjusted, with formalin if a commercial setting)... and even better to best, keep all incoming fish livestock quarantined for a few weeks before showing, offering it to the public... I would NOT mix fish and invertebrate livestock in a wholesale or retail setting... period> No option for separate treatment in a different tank. So while not my favorite option it will probably still give results and just wanted to fine tune it with some input. If you could tell me your frequency of the bath, duration of the bath you find effective. <Won't be... like the idea of invading countries, murdering their citizens to "make people free", this idea is contrary to reality. How to put this another way... it won't work> And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water change, the frequency and percentage of water changed. If you use any other methods with it such as melafix <... API should be sued back to the stone ages for this and other faux products and their promotion. Really. Have stated this often and loudly enough. This product is garbage> for bacterial infections of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies / shrimp to lending a helping hand, or anything else which might contribute to a recovery. <All this is gone over and over on WWM> I was considering fw bath repeated daily for 14 days, <... no... too much time, trouble, and stress on the fish livestock. Ridiculous> 7 min duration, gravel vacuuming bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every fourth day or so, melafix dosed daily, <Please...> few cleaning shrimp there for luck. <Don't rely on luck...> Considering use of a U.V. sterilizer instead of melafix, but not likely. Trading out treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of the parasites free swimming stage. experience and suggestions appreciated, and thank you for your time, Jonathan <Thank you for sharing Jonathan. A note to browsers through time... this is actually an indicative case, window into the thinking, operation of the trade... A reminder that many folks, though honest, of good intent, don't really know much re the science of actual husbandry of ornamental aquatics. Bob Fenner> Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Crypt 07/20/2008 Again my hand is forced by my employer's policy, ie p*tco. <Mmm, do know that I worked at corp... as a consultant/buyer for this co. 91-94... to bring in/make sense of aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal> I don't agree with the policy and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated quarantine / treatment systems. <I... empathize> Either you quit / walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be. There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper> <Yes> The fish has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank. One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath / gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank", "I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos. <... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy. Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems> The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its duration. How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10 gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater. <It/this can be done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the underlying principles> I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more appropriate? <Yes> As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have done those, <Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust> and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this problem. But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that week, and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were given proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it. The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that can be recovered. Not that I lack the knowledge to do so. Sorry to go on, No one on the crew has any recommendations for this compromised procedure? Frequency/duration of bath, frequency, percentage of gravel vacuum water change? <Five-seven minutes... daily, all the gravel vacuumed> I think 'ridiculous' was what I first thought about doing this as an alternative to a more proven technique. <Just... not something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)... as a likely procedure that will be successful for all... too much work, too stressful, too likely to not work> cheers, hand cuffed employee <Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob Fenner>

Chain Stores 7/21/08 Bob, <Tom> Read this, wanted to give some input. ""Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Crypt 07/20/2008 Again my hand is forced by my employer's policy, ie p*tco. <Mmm, do know that I worked at corp..... as a consultant/buyer for this co. 91-94... to bring in/make sense of aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal> I don't agree with the policy and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated quarantine / treatment systems. <I... empathize> Either you quit / walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be. There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper> <Yes> The fish has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank. One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath / gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank", "I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos. <... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy. Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems> The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its duration. How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10 gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater. <It/this can be done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the underlying principles> I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more appropriate? <Yes> As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have done those, <Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust> and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this problem. But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that week, and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were given proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it. The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that can be recovered. Not that I lack the knowledge to do so. Sorry to go on, No one on the crew has any recommendations for this compromised procedure? Frequency/duration of bath, frequency, percentage of gravel vacuum water change? <Five-seven minutes... daily, all the gravel vacuumed> I think 'ridiculous' was what I first thought about doing this as an alternative to a more proven technique. <Just... not something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)... as a likely procedure that will be successful for all... too much work, too stressful, too likely to not work> cheers, hand cuffed employee <Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob Fenner>"" We've got these stores here, in the Houston area. <Ah, yes... I know. I spent some time there, doing physical inventories... in the early nineties, for PetCo, when I worked for them as a consultant/buyer. A very nice town, folks> In fact, I bought my Passer Angel from them some time ago, in ignorant times, and as I look back I am pretty sure my crypt issues may have started with this fish. Thank goodness all is well now and the Passer thrives. This store does offer a saltwater market at locales where small private stores might not have a market to survive (small towns, etc), so I think they're a good thing to some extent. but I find their methods and livestock care techniques quite lacking. <Too often the case...> I feel it's their responsibility to their customers and the livestock to provide a better product. By that I mean service quality and education. I tell people who are interested in marine fish that its easy. if done correctly and you follow guidelines. One example at this store that I find bad is keeping LR and inverts in the same systems as their fish, making their fish 'untreatable' in reality. All of this, I would think, is easily remedied if the company would decide to do it. <And more pre-eminently, cared and "knew" what to do...> And I would think it is certainly in the best interest of their customers and our hobby in the big picture of things. Think of it; surely the large majority of people who are exposed to marine aquaria begin their adventures in a store like this. They always carry Nemos and Dorys and yellow tangs. And often, I'm sure, their intentions are good, asking the clerk about marine tanks, and what equipment they need, what are the requirements for care, etc. Can you imagine the responses they get? Just by looking over the accessories carried on the shelves, I can tell you they are probably providing the wrong answers. <Happens... so... of course (per moi) the question: "What do we do to make this better?"> One of the branch stores here, the one I purchased my angel from in fact, has well intentioned and intelligent employees. <Ah, good> All they lack, I would guess, is a bit of education and the resources necessary to do their job. Here we have a large number of readers who I'm sure have similar concerns of the writer of the email below. Perhaps he can provide us with the most effective contact information necessary to express our concerns. I'm sure that there are many of us who would take time to send an email, I certainly would. Just some thoughts. Thomas <Thank you Tom. BobF>

Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Benjamin's input Ich Treatment - 7/22/08 Hello, <Hello there!> I was wondering if anyone on the team has had any good experience with giving a marine fish with crypt a freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as copper treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)? <mm...can work, but very labor intensive> I'm more of a Cupramine guy myself (in a separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would like me to use freshwater baths exclusively in the main display / selling tanks which also house invertebrate life. No option for separate treatment in a different tank. <Not optimal...kudos to your employer for desiring to treat, but it sounds like conventional restraints still apply.> So while not my favorite option it will probably still give results and just wanted to fine tune it with some input. If you could tell me your frequency of the bath, duration of the bath you find effective. And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water change, the frequency and percentage of water changed. If you use any other methods with it such as melafix <Bunk product, save your money> for bacterial infections of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies / shrimp to lending a helping hand, or anything else which might contribute to a recovery. <Perhaps a bit of Methylene blue chloride in the dip> I was considering Fw bath repeated daily for 14 days, 7 min duration, <I'd shoot for twice daily, if the fish can stomach it. Keep in mind this will be VERY stressful as the sole method of treating fish...> gravel vacuuming bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every fourth day or so, <Do this daily> melafix dosed daily, <Skip it, worthless> few cleaning shrimp there for luck. Considering use of a U.V. sterilizer instead of melafix, but not likely. <Much better choice...UV> Trading out treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of the parasites free swimming stage. <Secondary infections unlikely with crypt., melafix would do nothing in any case. You'll need all the help you can get eliminating free-swimming and bottom-dwelling stages.> experience and suggestions appreciated, and thank you for your time, Jonathan <Do keep in mind all fish will need to be treated...and I still am doubtful as to effectiveness as more that aesthetic triage> <Benjamin>

Need an opinion on ick treatment 7/5/08 Hello, <Hi there> I need your much appreciated advise regarding ich treatments. My tank is a 300 gallon sps setup with two tuff stuff 140 gallon tubs connected by two 3" bulkheads; <Nice> one currently is holding the skimmer and the other is used as a refugium with Chaetomorpha algae. My display is over 2 years old with a 4" layer of fine sand and about two hundred and fifty pounds of live rock. My ammonia is undetectable; so is the nitrite. My nitrates are about 2.5 and pH ranges from 8.2 - 8.4. Alkalinity is at 9dKH and calcium is around 450. <Very good> I always tried to maintain salinity at 1.025, however after buying a refractometer three days ago I realized my water was actually at 1.030; so I lowered it to 1.025 within three days. <Mmm, I would take a week or longer here> I currently have the following fish: - 4" Majestic angelfish - 4" Coral Beauty - 2" ocellaris clown - Two 3" black saddleback clowns - 3.5" melanurus wrasse - 3" Lawnmower blenny - 3.5 yellow eye Kole tang - 4" Pacific Blue tang - 4.5" Powder blue tang By now I'm pretty sure you know where this is going. I got the powder blue about two months ago. I quarantine it for a month without any signs of ick, so I placed it in the display. None of my fish bothered it, he became the dominant fish right away. About two weeks after being placed in the display, I noticed he had what seemed to be ick. I obviously somehow introduced the parasite, so I was wondering what could have triggered this. <Perhaps the rapid change in SPG> Does the tank have a high Bio-load, <No> could the high salinity I had previously mentioned started this <Yes> or could it be the current heat wave which elevated the temperature to 84 degrees <Could be a co-factor> the one day I forgot to turn on the cooling fans. My display temperature is always at 80 to 82 degrees. I also had to remove a 5" blue throat trigger which the powder blue could not stand and chased a few times a day; I wonder if that stressed him enough. <This too> I waited a few days before taking further and appropriate action. At this point the powder blue is full of ick but eats well. My yellow eye which only grazes of the rocks and the glass is now also full. <This is something else> The Pacific blue gets the spots to a lesser degree on and off. The rest of the fish don't show any signs, however based on your web page I know all the fish need to be treated. <Yes...> After doing my research I need to remove all the fish and leave the tank fallow 8-10 weeks. I need your advise on how to properly remove the ick from the fish. My plan was to begin with the three tangs, giving them a formalin bath as per bottle recommendations, then placed in a 60 gallon quarantine. <Good> My question is whether I should add Cupramine to the 60 gallon quarantine tank at .35ppm <At the highest concentration...) for two weeks <Is one approach... you might want to try Chloroquine phosphate... IF the infestation is not too "deep", hyperinfective, this anti-malarial may destroy it (rather than simply arrest the present development)> then moved to a 150 gallon holding tank while I place the rest of the fish through the same procedure and while the display goes fallow. However I'm scared the copper might damaged the intestinal bacteria the tangs have, or if I might be doing more damage to my angels. <A distinct possibility> The other plan was to not use the copper and give the fish a formalin bath every other day for two weeks, then skip the 60 gallon with copper and place them into the 150 with newly mixed water. <Another approach... but likely more harmful than chelated copper exposure at the lower effective range (.0.15 ppm free Cu++)> My last idea was just one Formalin bath then placed in the 150 for observation. I believe I read many are not big fans of Formalin, as it is toxic, however I figured the copper might do more damage but I could be wrong. <Is very toxic... but effective for "surface" complaints> Please help me figure out which would be my best option. Also how would you recommend keeping the ammonia and nitrite down on either the 60 or 150 spare tanks with new saltwater. <Changing it...> Is Amquel or any ammonia sponge good or are water changes the only option. <Mmm, the latter may be worth trying... most water conditioners remove copper...> The sponges I had for biological filters in the sump most likely have ick so I don't want to introduce it to the quarantine. Thanks and keep up the good work.

Marine Ich 7/3/08 Hello Bob, <Mike> I'm into the first 24 hours of fighting the dreaded 'crypt' in my 10 gal QT using Seachem Cupramine and a lower specific gravity of 0.011. <This is low> I initially vacuumed out all gravel <... there should be no gravel present> to minimize Tomonts and I lowered the salinity to help with stress to see if 'Sonic', a 2' Porcupine Puffer, would fight it off on his own. The spots, however, continued to increase and he continued to decline. I finally added somewhere between 0.2 and 0.5 ppm copper sulfate last night (it's hard to accurately determine the concentration with a color comparison test kit, especially one using blue hues since most males are somewhat color blind to blue to begin with). <... Mmm... need to be more accurate, consistently....> This morning, 8 hours after adding the copper, Sonic was swimming around a bit with the rising of the sun. It's now a little over 24 hours after adding copper and he's 'begging' for food as he usually does. I gave him some dried krill soaked in Kent Zoe Marine hoping to boost his energy and immunity. <Good> The Puffer that was barely able to move off the tank bottom is now voraciously eating again! Although he still has numerous spots, we seem to be wining the war - many thanks to you for your advise. <Advice> So off to my questions; 1) Is the lower specific gravity a benefit? <... can be> 2) At what point should I begin to raise the SG and to what value? Again, it's a fish only quarantine tank. <... please read... WWM re... Hyposalinity...> 3) Are the white spots that we see actually the Trophonts; or the host's response to the Trophonts; or a combination? <The reaction. Crypt is too small to see...> Thanks, Mike

Treating Ick on a Volitans Lion 6/27/08 Hello Crew and thanks in advance for your help, <Welcome in time> I recently (yesterday) got back from a trip to Key West for my cousins wedding. <Ah, the Conch Republic... what a place!> (Poor me right! ; )) While I was gone I was lucky enough to have a friend watching my tanks for me who is a fellow hobbyist on a temporary financially imposed hiatus. Unfortunately my Volitans Lion came down with a nasty case of Ick which I have to admit is probably my fault (stress). Fatty (my lion) was the first of my fish to be transferred to my "new" 75 gallon display. The tank was cycled for 5 weeks with pre established live sand (3-4" deep) from my and my friend (the one watching my tanks) old tanks that were still running that the time. After the tests all came out with zero readings I introduced 20 lbs of "pre-cured" live rock (bought from 2 different trusted LFS) along with 5 lbs of LR from my already established 25 gal., and left tank to cycle/cure for another three weeks (tested again). Equipment is one Fluval 4 plus (seeded filter media), 2 Koralia 1 power heads, and a 200W Jager heater. At this point I added roughly 20 small mixed snails (Cerith, turbo, Nassarius) and 4 or 5 blue legged hermits <Your Lion may swallow any/all of these in time...> along with Fatty (about two weeks before vacation to Key West). During the transfer Fatty scraped him self on some LR while trying to flee the specimen container, but I dosed some vitamin C and he looked fine in a few days. Sorry if I'm being long winded here, but here the question/advice needed part. I have a five gallon bucket, 10 gallon tank, and another 25 gallon tank to use for the FW dip, chemical med dip/HT, and QT while I let the 75 gallon go fallow for the next couple months. My plan of attack was to do a FW dip (adjusted PH, Alk, etc.) in the bucket, then transfer fatty to the 10 gallon hospital tank for a medication period, and then finally to the 25 gallon QT for the remainder of the fallow period. For the medication I have some Quick Cure already from a FW Ick out break a few years ago, but I'm hesitant to use it given that lions are scale-less fish (at least I think they are) <Do have fine scales, but you are right in that they are more than usually sensitive to copper and formalin> and it's a harsher medication. From my research I see that Formalin 3 is highly suggested in the FAQ's, so do you think I should spend the extra $ and get it (or something else) instead of the Quick Cure I already have? Thank you again for your help, and continued dedication to this amazing hobby. Thanks, Darren Cothern <I would first try just adding the Quick Cure (it has formalin as well) to the dip/bath solution... at appropriate strength (see WWM re)... enroute to transferring the Lion, vacuuming the 25 tank bottom daily (to remove tomites)... to see if this "does it"... Should be able to see w/in a week... Bob Fenner>

Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/19/08 Hi Bob <Jon> I've been reading your site for a while now but have fortunately never had the need to email you before. It's an amazing site and is always the first place I come to and recommend to others. I've been keeping fish for about 20 years now (wow, is it that long? Yikes!) <Yes, time whips> and in the last 5 years turned my hand to marines. I am completely devoted to my aquatic friends and spend many hours a day making sure they've got the best environment they can with the funds I have to spend. <Good for us> I started with a Jewel Rio 240 and worked my way up to a 500litre set up with sump filter and refugium. I always build my own stands, hoods, cooling & filter systems as I find tailor made set-ups always best, not to mention fun and a challenge to build. <Great> In five years of keeping Marines the one and only thing I've had die is a turbo-snail and that appeared more to do with the Copperband Butterflyfish I had at the time (not dead, returned to my LFS). I've fragged many corals for friends and shops as I see this as a way of spreading the love and preventing wild collection of species (I used to breed Iguana's and water dragons for the same reason). <Ah, good> I won't go into the corals I have as there are simply too many to list but the only fish I have are as follows: 1 x Marine Betta - Calloplesiops altivelis 2 x Yellowtail Blue Damselfish - Chrysiptera parasema 1 x Bullseye Jawfish - Opistognathus scops 1 x Foxface - Siganus vulpinus 1 x Watchman goby -- still trying to identify the exact species but I've had him for 6 months -- will send you a pic if you want J 1 x Mandarin fish - Pterosynchriopus splendidus 1 x Rainford's Hover Goby - Amblygobius rainfordi 1 x Radiant Wrasse - Halichoeres iridis I've had all these fish for at least 6 months, the Marine Betta for 5 years (he hand feeds and will allow me to touch him -- he's amazing!) <Neat!> 2 weeks ago I moved the main tank in with my girlfriend so the whole thing was taken apart, moved and reassembled in 16 hours and everything, to my complete and utter relief, was perfect -- except the 9inch Deresa clam losing his grip on the rock but he's firmly attached again now J In the meantime and after much deliberation I decided to go for a tang, something I've always wanted to try to keep but have been reluctant due to them being particularly susceptible to Marine Ich. I decided to go for a Gold rim tang - Acanthurus glaucopareius as I think it's one of the nicest I've seen and found one in one of the shops in London. I bought him before the move and acclimatised him in a 2ft QT for 2 weeks <Mmm, not long enough...> and he was fine, nothing to report except a little stressed movement and hiding whenever I approached. Feeding well though on frozen mysis, marine mix, green and purple algae sheets and live brine shrimp. So, once the tank was rebuilt after the move I added him to my tank thinking that with the new rock structure all the fish would be in a 'New' surrounding and less likely to fight. After a little tussle with the Betta over who slept where (in which the Betta got his tail ripped -- it healed in under 2 days though which was quite surprising) everything was fine. He's been in the tank for 2 weeks and last night I noticed a few white spots on his pectoral fins. I have a VERY large hand held magnifier so watched him through this and it certainly looked like whitespot and not air bubbles as mentioned in one of your threads. Unfortunately that was at about 11pm and I didn't have time to sort it out and this morning the Foxface also has the ich *sigh*. Where did I go wrong? <The foreshortened quarantine... perhaps lack of a useful dip/bath (with formalin, aeration), the selection of species...> If you would be so kind as to give your thoughts on what I plan to do next I'd be most grateful. I've read all the threads on WWM and a few other sites so hopefully this will meet with your approval (It's just that I'm really scared about losing what has been my own little place of sanity over the last 5 years so I want to run it past someone with oodles more knowledge and experience than myself) <Mmm, I suspect that judging by your apparent intelligence here, involvement in the hobby, and recent review, you could likely write the gist of what I'm about to...> INTERIM MEASURES (until I can get a hospital tank set up) Step 1 -- Freshwater dip in same pH and temp water for Tang, Foxface (and Marine Betta just to be safe). <Mmm... if you're going the treatment route (see below), I'd lower the spg a few thousandths and add formalin per spec., and move all through the dip to new/separate water/system circumstances> Step 2 -- buy another Cleaner Shrimp - Lysmata amboinensis (I have one already but 2 is better than one I guess). I would buy a Neon Goby - Elacatinus oceanops, but I'm not sure if the Betta would eat him? <Odds are that it would not> He's left the Hover Goby alone and he's a similar size? What would you recommend? <Both the shrimp and the goby> LONG TERM MEASURES Step 3 -- set up 3ft Hospital tank with mechanical and biological filters using some media removed from main sump filtration system. Q. Having never needed to set up a hospital tank before will a 3ft tank be big enough for these three fish? <Yes> And all fish together if necessary? <Yes> Q. Will I need lighting in this tank? <No> If they are in the ambient light near a window and also near the main tank they are likely to be less stressed due to less light, correct? <Not much... comparatively> Step 4 -- treat with a copper based treatment for 2 weeks and then observe for 2 weeks. <Chelated, yes> Step 5 -- return fish to the tank after a further two weeks if no further infestation develops? (6 weeks in total) Q. Do I regularly feed them during this time or will excess food cause problems? <Feed, with water quality testing, changing out as necessary> Your sagely advice would be most appreciated and I'd like to thank you in advance for any help you can give. (You can post this if you feel it would help anyone but to be honest I feel rather ashamed that this has happened so if possible could you just reply instead of posting it on the website?) <There is no shame... and know that by our admissions we earnestly help others> Many thanks Jon <Now, my overall stmt. re your situation. You are faced with a crossroads... one that I can/will not be able to advise either way re. You can/could go ahead with the course of treatment you propose above... Or... elect to wait, see if this infestation will go (likely) sub-clinical... That is, you could hope for a latent situation in which your fishes will not be much-parasitized... nor have to undergo the rigours of toxic and stressful treatment. This is no easy choice... and yes, specific pathogen free circumstances are much more preferred. What will you do? Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/20/08 HI Bob <Jonathan> Thanks so much for your quick response. <Welcome> At first I saw that the email bounced back from your hotmail so I've sent it onto the "Crew" email address again so please ignore my 2nd email. <Have deleted> I got home last night and the tang and Foxface appeared active and healthy, and the infestation had not increased. <Mmm, may be simply cycling, but... my stmt. re "choices" stands> My poor Marine Betta is suffering though. He has some ich on his pectorals and head but on the surface it doesn't look as bad as the tang and Foxface. However, I think he's affected more due to the size of his scales as it would appear the infestation it happening under his scales? <Perhaps> Is this possible or could the stress have brought on something else? <Doubtful> Around his head his scales are erect and looked similar to dropsy in tropical species, but was localised to the head area with some patches of discolouration on his flanks. He was also breathing heavily and his mouth parts were extended due to infection in the crease above his lip. <You have a sharp eye> So, I decided to perform a freshwater dip on the tang, Foxface and Betta (without formalin as I had none at the time). Many parasites on the Tang were removed and once returned to the tank <... which is infested> he returned to normal behaviour in a matter of minutes and appeared to have small empty dots in his grey colouring where the parasites previously were. The Betta was a different story. Some parasites visible on the outer scales appear to have gone, although his lip remained extended, scales erect and eyes were somewhat cloudy - possibly due to excess slime production after the dip? <Maybe> However, he remained on the bottom in the Caulerpa staying quite still and breathing heavily. He did react to me peering at him by expanding all his fins to display though so fingers crossed. I couldn't catch the Foxface as it's unbelievably good at hiding and the added colour changing camouflage made it almost impossible to find once it knew what I was up to. It also seems to have learned a trick from by wrasse in that he buries himself in the sand? <Mmm, no> Wasn't aware it would/could/knew how to do this? <Me neither... Lo dudo> I will go to the LFS tonight and purchase (or perhaps borrow since I have a great relationship with them) both another shrimp and a goby. I will also purchase a 3ft tank, formalin and chelated copper for the next stage if it goes that far. I'd rather avoid the use of chemicals if I can but I really don't want to lose the Betta so I'll see how he's doing tonight and make the decision then. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for your advice, it's much appreciated :) Once everything's looking nice again I'll send photos. Thanks Jon <Stay balanced and informed Jon... BobF>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please - 6/20/08 Thanks again bob. I finish work in 2 hours, 5 min.s and 3 sec.s so I should have a hospital tank set up in less than 4 hours time :) <Precise!> I will then begin the task of dismantling the tank rockwork to catch the fish and separate them from the infestation. Many thanks J <Welcome. B>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/25/08 Hi Bob <J> I've set up a hospital tank as discussed but it appears that after the freshwater dip the Marine Betta recovered although the Tang still has mild infestation post dip. The fox face has cleared up of his own accord - possibly due to the additional cleaner and gobies. <Perhaps> I'm now weighing up the pros and cons regarding treating the fish and letting the tank go fallow vs. using no chemicals and seeing if it doesn't reoccur (please oh please don't reoccur!). <Will do so... IF challenges are presented... or a hyperinfective state is introduced with new livestock. Best to be very careful re quarantining, acclimating all new> As I said, I've bought an additional cleaner shrimp and two cleaner gobies to help. I will be keeping a close eye on the inhabitants over the coming weeks / months to see if the infestation reoccurs. I do have one further question though, which looking back through my emails I don't think I asked? I'm aware that stress can bring on / aid the speed of infestation of Ich in fish. Is it possible that the infestation could have been accelerated by a change in diet for the tang? <Mmm, yes> I use many methods to target feed certain inhabitants of the tank, especially the mandarin since he competes for food with the hover goby and watchman goby to come extent. Do you think if I prevented the tang from consuming large quantities of mysis / other meaty foods this may help? <Mmmm, doubtful> A loose theory perhaps but I know that with Iguana's (that are primarily herbivores) if you feed them too much meat based food it can affect their digestion process and cause all manner of problems - plus they're less likely to let go once they bite and draw blood. Many thanks J <Worth trying though. Reciprocally, providing nutritionally complete, easily recognized/palatable (i.e. accepted) foods DOES provide a good deal of stress-avoidance... Cultured macro-algae, dried... is best here. Bob Fenner> Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/25/08 Thanks Bob <Jon> Will let you know how I get on. I've attached a picture of the tank before the move for you and of my clams :)
Cheers
J
<Ahh, very nice. BobF>