FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis 36
Marine Ich: Fighting The War On Two Fronts,
Disease, Quarantine, Quarantine of Marine
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Work By Name: Free Copper/Cupric Ion
Compounds (e.g. SeaCure), Chelated Coppers (e.g. Copper Power,
), Formalin Containing: (e.g.
Quick Cure), About: Hyposalinity & Ich, Treating for Crypt & Sensitive
Fishes: By Fish Group: Sharks/Rays, Morays and other Eels, Mandarins/Blennies/Gobies, Wrasses, Angels and
Butterflyfishes, Tangs/Rabbitfishes, Puffers & Kin... &
Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks,
Parasitic Reef Tanks,
Marine Velvet Disease,
Treating Parasitic Disease,
Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease,
Ich; Crypt in a 750 gal. reef
Hey Bob, good morning.
So as luck would have it, my 750 has developed ich. I haven’t had to
deal with this crap for close to 8 years. My tank is loaded with coral
so treating the display isn’t an option and I have close to 40
fish and 400 pounds of LR so netting the fish out is also not an option.
I started them on DR Gs parasitic food,
raised the temp and bought 5 cleaner shrimp. I also just ordered
a new bulb for my sterilizer
<UV speeds up the decay of Chloroquine phosphate>
and should have it running in a day or 2. Even though the fish are still
eating, I've lost 4 of them. Is there anything else I can be doing to
get this under control?
<... Plan B... removing the fish livestock to where spg can be
manipulated, allowing the 750 to go fallow... Otherwise... hoping the
remaining fish livestock will develop resistance, immunity... Trouble
introducing new fish/es... NEED to be thoroughly acclimated, conditioned
to the system, including water changes from the main to Quarantine
I’m also running ozone although I realize it doesn’t do much for ich.
As always, thank you
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich 5/3/18
Thanks Bob. The link you sent for the food is different from what I
bought. The stuff I got is actually frozen Dr Gs food. Is the liquid
form you sent better in your opinion?
<I don't know John. My guess/supposition is that the frozen format would
retain CP potency. I did meet Dr. G years back giving a presentation
(used to call pitches) at a S. Fla. hobbyist show. Seemed very nice,
honest, competent folks/family. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich 5/3/18
Ahh. Ok. Thanks for the input. Hopefully it is as reef safe as they say
it is. I have thousands in corals at risk if it isn’t.
<Do see WWM re CP, and for what you have invested... the 2d ed. of Ed
Noga... Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment. B>
Question. More re Crypt in a 750 gal. reef
Good morning Bob,
<Good morrow to you John>
I have been wondering something that maybe you can answer. It’s about
ich. So if ich primarily effects fish when they get stressed and their
immune system takes a hit, why is it that the whole tank becomes
<There is more to such infestations. Apparently there are degrees of
some "pumped up" strains, populations (perhaps species) of Cryptocaryon,
REALLY causing more havoc once their daughter colonies ramp up >
If a fish with ich is introduced into a healthy thriving tank with all
health fish, why isn’t the ich isolated to just the stressed fish?
<Mmm, not the "nature" of the Protozoan. It's swarming stages are
"forever" seeking out host/s... in the wild, diluted by huge volume of
space, pushed off the reef into deeper water. In captive, recirculated
systems there is a "high target zone" throughout the tank>
I’m thinking in terms like this... if a fish recovers from ich it’s
because their immune system beefed up and fought it off. But.... if a
fish is already healthy, why do they become infected in the first place?
<Matters of titers against specific "types" of the parasite is my guess.
Akin to you, I gaining resistance to particular "strains" of microbial
diseases through exposure, but not to all "types">
My livestock was incredibly healthy in my 750 and I obviously added
something in the last couple weeks that introduced ich in the system.
Why were my healthy fish infected?
<I so wish we could go back in time and discuss, have a collective
understanding of a protocol for diminishing introduction... improving
the health of to-be introduced new livestock. Institutions like public
aquariums, commercial aquaculture.... are VERY careful to acclimate,
isolate, quarantine ALL newcomers for these dual purposes. Have you
decided to drain the tank, remove the remaining fishes? Bob Fenner>
Re: question, 750 gal. reef, Crypt
Thanks Bob. I haven’t reached that stage of the game yet. I’m hoping it
doesn’t come to that. This tank is massive and I just don’t know if the
juice is worth the squeeze. My coral population is vast and the thought
of pulling them all out leaves me feeling like I need to be medicated.
<I do understand. Have "been t/here" before John. Steady on. B>
long term. Infested SW systems 5/17/18
Hey Bob, good morning.
This question is regarding marine velvet. My 750 got
infected with it a few weeks back and devastated my fish population.
<I def. recall>
I have about 10 out of 30 remaining. About 1/2 of the remaining fish
must be immune because they haven’t shown any symptoms. The other half
are touch and go.
I’ve tried to trap them with no success and with thousands in corals I
can’t treat the tank. The question is this. If some of these fish pull
through and clear the infection, will I ever be able to add new fish to
the system or will the parasite always be present even on the healthy
<I hinted re this before... You will need, be best served to select more
resistant species (not Powder Blue, Brown Tangs e.g.) from better source
countries, AND harden them ahead of introduction. The short version of
this last involves isolation/quarantine to assure initial health, AND a
bit of acquired immunity imbued by slowly introducing water from the
main/display into the new arrival tank. Some folks might suggest
prophylactic treatment/s as well. The reality is that nearly all captive
systems are infested w/ parasite fauna of various mix; with the other
two "factors that determine livestock health" acting as more drivers of
As always, thank you.
<Please read here re:
Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: long term. SW Protozoan... 750
Ahh. That’s a good idea. I didn’t think about using some of the display
water in the QT system. So if I am understanding you, with a low
exposure they can build an immunity to it?
<Yes; there is such a phenomena as acquired immunity here>
I did end up putting a 30 gallon hospital tank together and added
copper. Unfortunately like I said I can’t get any of them trapped. But I
guess that for new additions it’s in place now.
Would it be counter productive to add copper AND diseased tank water to
the QT tank with any new additions? The answer seems like an obvious
“yes” to me but maybe I’m missing something?
<... I would, in order: 1) NOT treat the new fish if possible,
to allow them time to adjust to collection, transport, handling. 2) A
few weeks later, consider treating; perhaps not with copper compounds as
these are debilitating; perhaps too much so. 3) A few weeks later, start
adding, mixing water. PLEASE read where I've referred you>
Re: long term 5/18/18
Thanks again Bob. I appreciate the time and patience.
<Welcome John. Oh how I wish at times for something like the "Vulcan
mind-meld". Cheers, B>
Hi I read that you can help me im thinking we have Ick in our 125gal
fowler tank a couple have already died I can't
get the fish out what do I do to treat the tank we only have live Rock,
fish, sea hare, goby, lawnmower blenny turbo Snails, n and the little
<.... Umm; need to start back a few steps; need more info. And there's
not sufficient time to go back and forth. Let's have you start reading
and onto the linked files above... Formulate a plan (NOW) and act; ask
questions if anything isn't clear.
White Spot Margarita Cardinal 12/21/17
<8.5 megs of uncropped, blurry pix....>
One of my cardinals developed these two white spots on the bottom half of its
tail right at the edge. Does this look like Ick?
I originally thought it was sand but it hasn't moved all day. I got a few fish
that I was going to add in the display but not sure if I should hold off.
I attached a few photos. Do you see the spots?
<Yeah; I see something>
<Re/Read WWM re Cryptocaryon... I wouldn't treat directly here of course;
actually period; but instead do what you can do to optimize environment and
nutrition. Bob Fenner>
Re: White Spot Margarita Cardinal
Thanks Bob. This morning only one of the spots are left. 24 hours for a spot
dropping off is to quick for crypto, correct?
<It is not too quick... Most all marine fish containing systems have latent
Cryptocaryon infestations... If you'd read. B>
re: White Spot Margarita Cardinal 12/22/17
Will do some more reading but I thought Ick spots would stay on fish for
more than 24 hours.
<Usually Crypt does; but... the spots are not the organism...>
re: White Spot Margarita Cardinal 12/22/17
What should I do with my Anthias that are in QT? Wait a few weeks and then
add to display?
<A choice you have to make... Is it more desirable to have these little
basses more stressed in quarantine, or perhaps be exposed to possibly
increasing Protozoan issue?>
Re: White Spot Margarita Cardinal
So here is the plan. I am going to grind up some of the Ick shield pellets with
the CP and mix with their frozen food.
<Had a dream re your circumstances Eric (sigh, used to dream about women and
money...); and I would do what you suggest AND not add the CP directly to
water... Just in case. There are periodic reports of its toxicity>
My fish do not eat pellets so i am thinking this may work, unless the powder
doesn't stick to the frozen food. I am going to treat the Anthias also like this
so they have medication in there system and release into the display in a few
Sound like a good plan? Today is day three and the 1 spot remains on the fish.
No new spots and nothing on the other fish at this point.
<Do you have an inexpensive, few hundred power microscope? I'd get and use one.
Many "spots" are false flags; i.e., not indicative of pathogenic disease...
Mostly mucus from this or that irritation, sand... Bob Fenner>
Salt Water Disaster Brooklynellosis? <More likely the big "C">
Love love love your site. Used it for years in freshwater tanks (I have been in
hobby since 2005.)
Recently, in November of 2016, my husband and I decided to dip
our toes into the kingdom of salt water.
Our first tank is a 60 gallon tank with a canister filter. We
hope to upgrade within the next 12 months to 120 gallon.
<Yikes... Mmm; too small for a Powder Blue Tang or Emperor Angel>
Our set up was no live rock, coral, or anything, we started from scratch with
fake coral and plain sand. Took almost 4 months to completely cycle (we
eventually added two clowns and a school of Blue Chromis to finish
Tank has been doing well. Went through algae bloom after cycle and then all
readings stabilized. We then made several mistakes.
Tank set up and water changes with tap water. But we had no adverse effects on
our readings or livestock.
We purchased a Foxface Rabbitfish in March and he has been doing well.
Added two cleaner shrimp in April and a Power Blue Tang. Everyone was happy and
<This, PBT is extremely susceptible to Cryptocaryon; likely what this is here>
Added a juvenile Emperor Angel in beginning of May and he was amazing.
Added a Flame Angel two weeks ago and all was well.
We perform 10-15% water changes weekly depending on nitrate levels. We feed
frozen (brine shrimp and Emerald) and NewLife Spectrum Algae Max rotating by
hand. We also feed Sea Veggies on a clip daily.
Saturday, May 29, 2017, we did a 15% water change. Water was extremely cloudy.
<Yikes; whence forth the cloudiness?>
We had original carbon still in our canister and we were told by LFS that it
really isn't necessary. Opened canister to retrieve since it had been in there
since November and had leakage (lost 50% of tank water before it was
Did another water change and all the debris in the canister backwashed into the
tank to replace lost water when canister hose leaded/malfunctioned.
After 24 hours, water chemistry was: PH 8.3; temp 78; Nitrites 0; Ammonia .25;
Nitrates less than 10 ppm.
However, fish became very stressed. Emperor showed immediate signs of what
looked like Ick for a few hours but cleaner shrimp and time corrected problem.
Next day (Sunday) we lost Flame Angel.
Monday all other fish looked "ok" but not the best.
Water chemistry continued to show Ammonia .25 so Seachem Stability was added at
loading dose per bottle LFS instructions.
Lost remaining Chromis.
Tuesday, water chemistry continued as above, all fish were nibbling, and hiding
Yesterday, Powder Blue Tang developed what looks like Brooklynellosis? (I have
attached pic). He died last night.
<Almost assuredly Crypt>
This morning did fresh water dip on Emperor which revived him for a spell, then
he died today.
One clown died today.
Invertebrates look unharmed. Foxface Rabbitfish shows signs of a few white
bumps, but not covered like other fish.
On inside of my tank, on glass, is a swarm of organisms that look like tiny
white rice granules....
In hindsight, we know our classic mistakes and have paid a very high and painful
However, I also should have listened to my gut as the Tang was exhibiting signs
of infection and my research did not yield any response and we thought maybe
just normal parasites that shrimp removed.. He was scraping
his side on objects and had white bumps that would come and go near his gills. I
have attached pics.
Remaining in tank today are:
1 Foxface Rabbitfish
2 Cleaner shrimp
1 hermit crab
Any help, suggestions, would be greatly appreciated.
<At this point, I'd do nothing... no treatment; just wait. Do NOT add any more
Water parameters this morning are: PH 8.3; Temp 78; Nitrites 0; Ammonia
.25; Nitrates 10 ppm.
Also, can you recommend a few good books on fish health, disease,
etc that may help educate us moving forward? we have Bob's The Conscientious
Marine Aquarist and another salt water book but these are mostly with
generalized set up and stocking.
<I like Jay Hemdal's "Diseases of Marine Fishes" as a recent, easy to
understand, straight-forward guide here>
Needless to say we are devastated. We feel very sad at the agony and loss of our
fish and all our hard work in vain.
<I do understand. Better for you to read/study for now; develop a routine/S.O.P.
for selecting, isolating/quarantining new livestock...
Putting together a hardier assemblage going forward>
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Marine Ick Questions 5/23/17
Got a quick Ick question?
Typically once Ick, white spot, shows on a fish how long does it
typically stay visible until it drops off?
<Depending on temperature mainly, 3-4 days; can be longer... up to 9
I have a Firefish that for the last 3 days has had a single spot on each
<Mmm; only two spots... not likely Crypt>
Each spot only stays on the fin for less than a day before disappearing.
I am trying to determine if it's sand stuck to the fish since it does
have it's cave in the sand bed or something else.
<Again; this is not likely Ich>
Right before this started I added a couple glass cardinals, a dispar
Anthias, and a flasher wrasse. The fish were quarantined but even with
timing it would be impossible for it to have come from one of those fish
because of the Ick lifecycle. If it's Ick I guess it was already in my
display and the addition of the new fish stressed out the Firefish. I am
contemplating feeding dr. G's antiparastic formula as a prophylactic or
just leaving as is. Problem is there is no way I can get the fish out to
treat if it was Ick so I am in a little predicament.
<I'd just do your best to keep the system stable and optimized at this
point. When you have time, peruse WWM for the many files on
Cryptocaryon, parasitized systems... Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Ick Questions
<Welcome Eric. BobF>
Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks
I recently had to QT my Kole Tang, Harlequin Tusk, and dwarf golden Moray eel
(Gymnothorax melatremus) due to a velvet outbreak. I've been treating the tank
with 45mg/gal of CP. Everyone looks good. No more flashing and both fish are
eating. The tank is BB with PVC fittings.
Now to the problem, my eel hasn't eaten (that I've seen) for 3 weeks.
<Might be the CP exposure; I'd stop it now>
He ate a big chunk of mixed food the day before the transfer, because I assumed
that no one would eat until they settled in. He is VERY active. He swims all
around the tank at night. During the day he hangs out in his PVC
pipe elbow. If I try to feed him, he sometimes takes a sniff and then seems like
he's scared of it. I was wondering if it's the CP messing with his sense of
smell because of the metal taste.
<Something like this>
At what point do I worry? I was thinking about putting the carbon in the filter
and starting water changes. Is 21 days enough to kill velvet (or Ich, but I am
confident that it was velvet)?
<I'd soak favored foods in appetite stimulant; such as SeaChem Appevite... and
keep offering daily>
I've tried fresh oysters, mussels, squid, clam, etc. He seemed most interested
in a silverside before the tusk stole it. In the DT he ate every 3-4 days. When
he was swimming around the other night I tried to feed him
thinking he was hunting, but he just hid when I opened the lid.
<Morays, most eels of "good (index of) fitness, can go for long periods sans
food. Don't give up. Bob Fenner>
Re: Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks
Thanks for the quick reply. I will add carbon tonight and start partial water
changes with un-medicated water. My original plan was a 28 day CP treatment to
be safe, but do you agree that a 21 day regimen was enough?
<I myself would stop now... another week may be more deleterious than
advantageous. Bob Fenner>
Ok Gents, first off great website and great info but couldnt really find
anything on the followingOk we have a 270gallon system with several
predators inside. 4 eels (yellow head, Black ribbon and Zebra) 2 Stone
and a Volitan Lion fish. Also in the same tank some yellow wrasses
(eventual feed for the stone fish) and quit a bit of Blennies a small
Red Grouper and a small panther grouper both last aditions.
The tank has a sand bed and some life rock though not too much.
Parameters are OK though Nitrates seem to spike sometimes but all the
rest is OK. This tank has turned into the predator tank due to lingering
ICH issues through the years which turned it into what it is now. ICH
been properly removed.
<Crypt is VERY hard to eradicate from a system once entrenched>
Now the idea would be to remove the entire sandbed leave the life rock
and leave the eels and Rock fish only as they seem not effected by any
of the ICH issues Both groupers and the Lionfish seem to suffer most
from the ICH.
So remove all other fish and leave the tank without any other fish
except for the Eels and Rock fish for about 2 months.Would this
eradicate the ICH issue or can ICH survive with the Eels and rock fish
I was of the assumption that ICH has no effect on those fish?
<They can/do act as reservoir hosts>
But can the ICH survive with them present so not that after 2 months we
add fish (properly quarantined now) to the display and ICH breaks out
<Can and will>
Please advise and Thank you as always from Thailand
<Take the long read on WWM re this ciliate. Bob Fenner>
Cryptocaryon and Chloroquine Phosphate
Hello from Romania,
<Howdy from California Andrei>
I hope you are all well. And thank you again for your valuable help you
provide for all of us.
<Thank you and welcome>
About my current problem : because of a terrible accident with
my calcium reactor in September I have lost everything in the
tank so I took that opportunity to restart from scratch in my 350
gallons system consisting of DT, and one refugium and 4 sumps filled
with live rock in the basement .
So I dried and washed all the rock, changed the sand in the refugium,
When everything was ready, I decided to start the system in the
following way :
not having any critters at all, I placed all the system in hyposalinity
(SG at 1.008 - 1.009 ) with the plan to fully stock with fishes, and
then keep it like that for other 3 weeks and then get the SG at sea
levels and begin to stock with corals and invertebrates. I also have at
hand enough Chloroquine Phosphate to treat all the system if necessary.
( you have no idea hw hard is the find CP here) . So I begun to put
fishes in : Acanthurus Leucosternon, Acanthurus Achilles, Acanthurus
Sohal, Paracanthurus Hepatus, Zebrasoma Xanthurum, Zebrasoma Flavescens
x2 , Centropyge Bicolor, Centropyge Loriculus x2 , Centropyge
bispinosus, Odonus Niger, Pomacanthus Imperator, Pomacanthus
Xanthometopon and some wrasses, gobies etc. For a period of weeks while
I added fishes, all the Acanthurus were spotless.
Problem : I begin to lose some fishes ( achilles, one of the flavescens,
the loriculus ) apparently the ones that were not eating active enough
or were shy, or were the target of aggression. But I am not so sure
<Oh Andrei! How I wish you had added a handful of hardy Damsels
to first check the viability of your system. It may be that the issue/s
here are non-pathogenic>
The fishes that died didn't had any sigh of the disease, but the last
week I have seen some white spots on the Hepatus and some on the
Leucosternon, even though the latter eats voraciously ( just like the
Sohal or Xanthurum or Imperator). I am planning to add some more fishes
that are on the way :
Pygoplites Diacanthus, Zanclus Cornutus and Chelmon Rostratus. ( I know
they sound pretentious, but before the disaster I have kept all these
fishes for years and in good conditions ) So, what do you think I should
do : stay at this low SG, add all the fishes and stick with the plan,
considering that the spots I see are introduced with the last fishes and
when they will reach the right moment in their life cycle they will day
and the hypo works?
<Hyposalinity rarely (never) brings about permanent Cryptocaryon
Is the low SG that is causing fishes loss, or maybe the crypt that seems
to be resistant to the low SG?
<Likely low SG has something to do w/ overall stress; and this is the
root "cause" here>
And if the crypt is resistant, is there any other reason I should keep
low SG? Or use the CP, turn off the lights and
If I use the CP should I do it at this SG or wait until I get at higher
Should I use the CP now or after the other fishes arrive ( in about a
<I'd NOT add more livestock for now. I would NOT pour the CP into the
system, but administer it to the fishes via foods... as gone over in
Noga (I and II) and on WWM>
I know that these are many questions, but it was the best way to
describe my indecision, and maybe some others will benefit from the
clarification of these problems. Also, the way I planned to start this
tank, until now it seemed for me the perfect and safest way in the right
conditions, but I am not so sure anymore, maybe you help me clear this
Thank you very much again,
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Marine Crypt 4/2/17
I have read a number of articles on Crypt, including the one on your
website. I understand that a number of fish are resilient to Crypt and
may never show any signs.
Currently I have some corals, crabs, snails, cleaner shrimp, and for the
fish stock: two clowns, rippled coral goby, yellow watchman goby, and a
royal gramma. All fish are active eaters and I believe their breath rate
is normal. The Gramma went through a minor flashing stage over maybe
four days about a month ago and I had noticed a few white spots - could
be Crypt, could be something else?
<Could be; pathogenic or not>
My coral goby that used to be a dark green with pinky/orange stripes
decided to start perching in my colt coral, and over the course of a few
days his color started to lighten considerably so that one would swear
he was near white with pink stripes and blue eyes. While he still
perches in the colt coral, he now spends most of his time in the
liverock once again, and his color is darkening. I'm also noticing some
small cloudy blotches on his fins. He aggressively eats and pursues my
much bigger clowns for food. I'm not 100% sure this is Crypt with
respect to the Gramma that appears to have small white spots that may be
just under the surface of the skin, or my Coral Goby. If it is, and if
my fish are resilient... Crypt requires a new host after a period of
<Mmm; yes; does leave; come back>
Am I correct in stating resilient fish will still host, thus this still
needs to be dealt with?
<Dealt with... in terms of medicine? Better to improve environment,
nutrition. Read on WWM re "parasitic systems">
Or, if all fish are showing capability to fight it off, and if I don't
introduce new fish for a period of time (10mths) will
it disappear completely?
<Not likely no. There are SPF (Specific Pathogen Free) systems; but in
actual practice, reality, most captive arrangements have resident
parasites... Cryptocaryon is difficult to eradicate altogether once
established, introduced. Bob Fenner>
Fine Filter Pads for Help Combating Ich/Marine Velvet
I had an interesting hypothesis that I wanted to get your opinion on.
Would using fine filter socks/pads that are 50/100 micron be able to
help control an outbreak of Marine Velvet and/or Ick?
<Mmm; would likely reduce incidence, but not totally control. DE
(Diatomaceous Earth)... would be better>
I was doing some reading and it seems like the trophonts of each would
be larger than 50 microns, so it would beg the question. Obviously like
UV (which I think this would compliment) it can't eliminate it because
it won't have full access to the entire volume of water at all times-but
I would think that it could help prevent outbreaks when used in a sump
in a tank with high water turnover and good circulation?
<Yes; help. Will/would require very frequent cleaning>
Assume that you could have a decent combination of filters (e.g. 200
micron + 100 micron + 50 micron stacked together and changed often.
Anyone heard of trying this approach?
<Oh yes. Screening like this is commonly employed by facilities using
natural seawater for culture. Bob Fenner>
Ick; Didn't Quarantine
<Hi Mark. Gabe here from the crew>
My 400 gallon salt tank just got ick.
<Sorry to hear this. Every aquarist's nightmare>
It is fish only with no corals. I don't really want to medicate if at all
possible so I don't kill off my live rock and sand.
<Ok. Might be your only choice in the end>
<Medications like copper are the best for FOWLR tanks, but there is an option if
you don't want to medicate the display tank. The only way to do this would be to
put all the fish in a quarantine tank with a medication.
This would keep the copper out of the display and keep your live rock and live
sand alive. Throughout this quarantine period, you need to leave the display
tank fallow/empty. Do not add any new specimens of any kind during this period
Ick can not survive without a live fish host, so it will eventually all die off.
I suggest an eight week period of quarantine and empty tank time. This will
ensure all the ick is dead before you put the fish back in the tank. Other than
this, there is no good way to not medicate the display tank. Hopefully this will
be a life lesson to ALWAYS quarantine new fish. Let us know if you have any
other questions. Cheers, Gabe>
Just got back on WetWeb now that my show is over. Thanks for understanding.
I replied to a query about ick that was in the Marine Queries folder to "Mark
Salay", but it turns out you already replied to it but it was never moved.
<No worries; better for folks to have more input rather than less>
I guess they will get two replies, hopefully not two conflicting ones :)
Leaving it in the deleted messages folder in case you want to post.
Gabe Walsh, WWM Crew
<And you, BobF>
Re: Ick; Didn't Quarantine 2/28/17
Thanks for your reply.
<My pleasure. Gives me a reason to zone out during class>
I always quarantine new fish.
<How long do you treat them and what chemical do you use? Please send QT tank
I don't understand how it got in my tank.
<Could've been on your live rock or sand. Every tank I have had got it at some
I removed all fish into quarantine with the exception of two large zebra eels
and a snowflake eel.
<Might want to move them>
I believe these will be ok because of their slime - - is this correct?
<Yes and no. Morays are not immune to ick, they are just highly resilient to it.
Their slime is somewhat toxic so they rarely get it. In this case, I would move
them just to be safe. It would be better to have the tank completely empty
during this period. I don't know what chemical you're using, but eels can NOT be
exposed to any copper at all. It will kill them.>
<Now is also a great time to redo some aquascaping and do water changes and
filter changes. Should be easier with an empty tank, especially the aquascaping.
I have little scars from trying to move stuff around with an eel in the tank.
Also, we'd love some pictures for the site. Let me know if you have any other
questions. Cheers, Gabe>
Ick.. Crypt, no rdg; Using WWM
My 400 gallon salt tank just got ick.
<Umm; actually most all captive marine systems "have Crypt"...
sub-clinical... "stressors", resulting in observable manifestations>
It is fish only with no corals. I don't really want to medicate if at
all possible so I don't kill off my live rock and sand. Any suggestions?
<Yeah.... read here:
and the linked files above; and QUICKLY! Need to formulate a plan, and
act... or not.
Restarting big system. The Crypt Blues BIG Time 12/6/16
Hello to you all and regards from Romania,
<Good morrow to you from not-yet sunny S. Cal. Andrei>
There is a lot I would like to explain, but I will try to keep it short:
big system, 250 g display, 5 sumps filled with live rock meaning another 150 g ,
one of the sumps RDSB with 20 cm of sand and Caulerpa on top, a lot of it , all
full of 4 years old reef life. Cryptocaryon outbreaks , I suspect also velvet on
the fish population : Naso tang, 2x Zebrasoma flavescens, Pomacanthus imperator,
Zebrasoma xanthurum, Zanclus cornutus, Centropyge bicolor/loricula/bispinosus,
marine beta, Acanthurus bariene/leucosternon/japonicus/achilles/lineatus,
Paracanthurus hepatus, Pygoplites diacanthus, lo magnifica, pygmy lionfish,
tomentosus filefish, Chelmon rostratus, and other small fishes : Synchiropus,
clownfish , gramma, wrasses. All, 2-4 years old in the system..
I have been battling crypt for a long time, with signs always visible and
occasionally outbreaks, so this time, that even the imperator stop eating, and
some small fishes died, I decided to take extreme measures : all the fishes out
in hyposalinity for 3 weeks with freshwater and blue Methylene bathes in
transition, and after 4 days all the fishes are eating and doing well in hypo.
Now, the plan: all of the system dried , all the live rock out dry and then
dipped in freshwater for 2-4 days. Rebuild the aquascape and refill all the
sumps with the "dead" rock. What about the RDSB, what should I do about that? I
imagine I should take out all the sand, wash it and redo the RDSB.
<You could... or just hope the Protozoan/s are weakened w/o fish hosts.... OR
nuke/bleach it and... OR simply thoroughly vacuum and more hope.....>
The important thing now: what do I do to restart the system, should I fill the
system with freshwater and run it for 1-2 days than begin to add salt just to be
sure the crypt would be wiped out by the freshwater?
<Not likely ALL will be wiped out unfortunately. Cryptocaryon can become VERY
entrenched... living DEEPLY on/in fishes... HENCE the need to optimize
environment, nutrition and do your best to avoid uber stress>
What kind of freshwater, could I begin with filling with tap water and maybe
adding some chlorine removal, given the fact that the population of fishes will
not return in less than 3 weeks?
<No need to use chlorine remover... the salts will complex and it will otherwise
dissipate in time>
Or should I wait for osmosis water to be produced? What if I don't take out all
the live rock ( unbelievable amount
of life on it, all the sumps full with small crustaceans, snails, tube worms,
sponges, tunicates, shells etc ) but just prepare the existing water in the
system to 1.011 salinity , move the fishes in so they continue they're hypo in
the main system, and start adding bacteria and bacteria food?
<Not likely to kill the Crypt thus>
Will any of the snails/starfishes/ bacteria/etc life survive or will it all be
killed by the 1.011 salinity?
<Likely most all will be killed>
What will happen with the RDSB in 1.011 salinity, will all the life die, or the
anaerobic areas, where I believe there is no crypt will preserve they're
functions and the 1.011 salinity will kill the crypt on the surface of the sand?
<Will kill all... beneficial and not>
I want to make all that it takes to get rid of crypt, but I was just wandering
if I might preserve some of the life that there is in and around the rock in the
sump, especially in the RDSB tank.
<Wish I had better news to report... You HAVE read re infested systems on WWM?
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
ICH too many options? which is right for my situation
Hello crew hope all is well. Thanks for this site and keeping it going its
brilliant!. I'm over here in Scotland and so some items and products not readily
<Ah yes; understood... most anti-malarials, anti-microbials...>
I've gone through pages and pages of crypt advice and now confused as I have
some options but I also feel stuck could you help please?
I'd rather be thorough and so here's a bit of background which you can remove
the bits that aren't required if it's to be posted.
I moved in August and so in July I bought a smaller system to manage the move,
less stressful on all fronts!
Main display tank is FOWLR 60"x30"x30" and sump with 36x24x18. 120kg(220lbs live
rock). Overall I think 1100litres (290 gallons usa online converter). Sump
houses a Deltec 2060 skimmer and return pump. There is also another pump in the
third chamber where I run through to a fluidised sand filter set for 1500ltrs
and then this passes on through a UV unit
<Will have to turn off if using copper...>
and into the top of a homemade trickle tower(an old drilled AquaMedic nitrate
reductor with the bactoballs, ceramic media and sponge. Any way to increase
filter power!. So far it's worked great with no ammonia or nitrite readings and
generally less than 20 on the nitrate side of things for the past 5 years.
With the move I bought a small tank and set up and ran this for 6-7weeks prior
to moving. Transfer large amounts of sand all the live rock to sump and ran as
normal. Tank was 90cmx45cmx45cm with 4 chamber sump so some 250 litres(70
gallons usa I think?). Absolutely fine running no spikes so very happy. With the
move I had enough water set up to transfer everything back into main display. I
ran my RO machine along the road at a friends into a static pond and was able to
transfer and refill the display tank over course of 24hrs. All good again and no
issues with it running smooth the last 3 months with usual water chemistry as
before. Having low stock probably helped.
Stock: I have a couple of blue damsels from way back (Chrysiptera cyanea), 2
Sergeant major (Abudefduf saxatilis), Banana Tusk (Bodianus perdition) called a
tusk but presume it is a hogfish based on family name?
<Mmm; yes; though all wrasses/Labrids of the genus Bodianus do have the common
appellation "hogfish" applied to them at times, places (plus another genus:
and my prize fish, yellow eye surgeon/Australian Blue tail tang (Acanthurus
xanthopterus) I've seen many different common names for it but it's a lovely
friendly fish, had it 5 years and now, was the size of a small yellow tang when
I got her and now she pushing around 20" in size!. Cleaner wrasse (Labroides
dimidiatus<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labroides_dimidiatus>)( I wrote in
about 5 years go so I know Bob referred me to the pages regarding these guys,
maybe frowned upon so wont by them again but 5 years on he's still here!).
One chocolate chip starfish and a handful of turbo snails.
<Ahh; and these are problematical re most drug, economic poisons use>
Now to the problem of being to lapsed!
I purchased a yellow tang from my LFS and I got complacent and put him without
QT, I didn't set up my other tank post move. 3 weeks on, no issues. My main plan
is to have a small shoal of them.
<Can (severely) bicker amongst themselves... try two more... wait a month or
two, possibly two more... for five total>
I have a new tank arriving in four weeks 96"x30"x30" Plus large sump so I'm
calculating around 400-450 gallons usa. And there will be a good bit of swimming
space for my big tang.
One of my LFS is stopping marines and he was aware of my plan so I was offered
the remaining 4 in tank where my 1st purchase came from. I figured this may help
on the pecking order as they had already seen each other. Maybe a bit to finding
Nemo of me where they all have names and talk to each other, who knows but it
worked a treat and no fighting, I also stuck a mirror at one end so they thought
there was ten of them!.
I'm a sucker for a deal and was I guess caught up in moment. Current price for
small YT with exchange rates £55-£60 so around $72 dollars, I was offered the 4
for $120. My complacency continued and has finally bit me! Of course I just
added to main system. It was silly as I never had ability or space for QT and
well now I do and I didn't set it up! My large tang as developed ICH and the
yellows have started showed signs 4days ago.
My actions so far have been to run main system down to sg 1.08.
<Watch your starfish and snails! They will likely perish here>
I did large water changes and siphoned the tank and removed all the sand to see
if that well help the where the ICH can go. I have treated the water with a
malachite green/formaldehyde product to buy me time.
I see that these aren't the best?
<Dangerous... toxic, and the Malachite will stain...>
. Freshwater dip with the big tang, was only one showing signs. I appreciate
doesn't eradicate or do too much but seemed to help her and stop her ticking
I have as of last night set up my small tank the 70g tank. The problem is where
to go now?
<Easy to state, difficult to do, but patience... only>
I understand the fallow concept but can I move all the fish to the new QT tank,
it's not cycled so is that not like the saying from frying pan to fire?
<Leave all fishes in the main display>
I attached a pic of my tusk and tang and so as you see space is a premium they
did great in that tank for 7 weeks. I don't know if I could get away with adding
all the yellow tangs as well? I thought I could add them to sump so there's more
space for everyone but I still have a lack of filters or a bacteria cycle? Could
I do daily water changes to maintain chemistry parameters?.
<You could, but see above. LEAVE fishes where they are>
I guess I can't take any rock from main tank as this will likely take the ICH
with it. I had read about Brightwell aquatics and their bio xport rock? Huge
surface area and their Nitrobacter 7. I've already bought this last week. I can
seed this tonight and add to QT? Do I push them all into the QT tank? I feel
like this is now a question of what do I want to save? Which feels horrible.
I also have a small 10 gallon orca tank and so could move the inverts to this
then treat main system with say Seachem Paraguard as well?.
Seeing as I have a new system coming next month and with this tank already
cycled should I do something a bit different and take all the rock and
everything else out of my display tank? (fluidized sand filter?, all filter
material? Trickle tower? And place all of this into my 70g tank. Then this means
the QT could be the fallow tank and make the display the bare bottom tank/QT?.
<I would do none of this... VERY likely the Crypt WILL COME w/ the fishes when
they're moved, AND moving them will stress them further, cause more trouble>
Add the xport to main system and this way give all the space they need? I can
then treat the system with say ParaGuard once inverts are safe and in the 70g
tank. This could be costly due to volumes were looking at for Paraguard. Finally
I have another option which wouldn't be available to most. As you may be aware a
lot of drugs in the UK are POM, even over the counter products like Ibuprofen
have controls like you can't buy more than 32 at a time. I work in Veterinary
industry and so have been able to discuss benefits of Metronidazole with some
vets and get a prescription. I have tablets (400mg) and had planned to hide in
some prawn, muscles or scallops. Like tricking your dog with worming. Big tang
is off meaty foods but will still eat lots of the pellet food from the New life
spectrum range! So still has an appetite which I hope is a good sign. I also
managed to get oral Metronidazole like a syrup and tried squirting some in mouth
but don't think it was ingested and when I tried dosing the food I don't think
this has really soaked in and worked as more signs on yellows stated showing,
they are also eating lots of brine and Spirulina flakes.
Where to go now?
<Were these fishes, systems mine, I'd NOT use Metronidazole, nor an
anti-malarial... yet. Better by far to keep the spg low and wait>
Cross checking the oral levels from other posts I see 25mg/kg and 11mg/lb. seems
to be appropriate. Due to size of my large tank I have also IV Metronidazole and
so I have considered injecting sub cut into the tang may be the way forward to
guarantee it's in her system?.
Sorry I guess I need a proper plan of action. Move fish or move rock?
Try taking risk for all to be moved or just some. Should I look at treating the
main system with Metronidazole as well or stick to the Paraguard with the tanks.
If I took Live rock out of water I guess it would die off. Should I put it all
the rock in a separate storage tank with heater a flow and top up with the
Nitrobacter 7. Sorry for the long email as I said I seem to have few options but
this is causing me more problems as to what is best course of action. I would
greatly appreciate any insight. Thank you hugely! in advance. I will NEVER EVER
NOT QT GOING FORWARD. At least I will have a 70g and 200+g QT's going forward,
<Please read here:
and the linked files in this series (above), and the linked files you find
in-text... Bob Fenner>
White barred boxfish with oodinium
We have 2 white barred boxfish that have been fine for the past few
months and last week broke out severely with white spots
(more like icing sugar than anything) all over their bodies.
<I see this in your accompanying pic>
We did freshwater dips which helped someone what but not a lot and moved
them into a separate quarantine tank where we treated them with Formalin
for 24 hours.
<Mmm; very toxic. Better to use this biocide in dips/baths only>
The boxfish live at 67 degrees.
<I'd keep much lower; like the mid-50's F>
Today, although they are better, they are no where near good. This is a
photo of them this morning after formalin.
Am looking for advice on next steps:
Here are my questions:
From the appearance in the photos, does this look like oodinium (or
<Almost assuredly Cryptocaryon... can be easily checked w/ sampling,
microscope exam. IF Velvet they'd be dead>
As you can see the larger one has lost a lot of colour, which started
happening about 3 weeks ago. I believe that may have been the onset of
the outbreak but the cold water suppressed the advancing parasite.
<Yes; all the more reason to lower it still>
Would hyposalinity be effective for treating these cold water fish?
<Can help; rarely effects a cure>
Should we drop the temperature to change the progress of the disease?
We are picking up some Chloroquine Phosphate, but will not have it until
Thursday. How do we make it until then?
<IF you lower temp.; likely so>
Should the dosage of the CP be adjusted because of the water temp?
Would you recommend something else? (No, I have no access to a cold
water cleaner fish, but wondering if a tropical cleaner fish would
acclimate down to 67 degrees)
<Labroides et al. common cleaners; no>
Thanking you in advance,
and will be in your lecture at MACNA in a couple weeks!
<A good. See you then! Bob Fenner>
Re: White barred boxfish with oodinium
Totally appreciate the comments. I am getting biopsy on Friday.
In your experience, are these fish beyond recovery?
<Mmm? No; genus Aracana are actually quite tough>
What would help
them in addition to the directions discussed. Vitamins? Omega Fatty Acids?
<In foods, added to water... to some extent? Increasing RedOx, much more
so... a myriad of "things" that might improve water quality, stability,
boost immunity.... BobF>
UV filter (which we keep on all our tanks). It is turned off
right now for medications.
Natural Cryptocaryon remedy
I have unfortunately fallen under the impulse buyers syndrome and
haven't followed the proper steps to ensure healthy specimen's. ( No
<So very common....>
And now I am battling a case of Cryptocaryon in my 125 gallon FOWLR. (
PH 8.2, No1 =0 No2= 0 Temp 82 ) Large skimmer, 100 lbs Live rock
<No NO3, nitrate? Unusual. I'd be "checking the checkers"; using another
The tank inhabitants are a 16" Hawaiian dragon
<Will need more room... am sure you're aware>
16" White Mouth Moray
3" Picasso Trigger
And now a 8" Dogface puffer ( the carrier of Ich)
So here is my concern, The Morays especially the Dragon are my main
<Yes; well... for browsers sake I'll mention that these species are
usually protozoan tough/resistant>
I have read about marine Ich, Copper with Morays and puffers and
medications (All of which sound pretty harmful)
<They can be; yes>
I do not have a quarantine tank so whatever I do it will have to be in
the DT. I would like to stay as far away from chemicals as possible. It
has been about two weeks and the Puffer and Trigger are showing signs (
but otherwise acting normal ( eating and swimming). I raised the temp to
82 and have left the lights off.
Would hypo salinity 1.09 help? But not stress eels or kill beneficial
<Will help... and will likely at least knock nitrifiers way back
physiologically if not numbers/pop. wise. I'd be monitoring (daily at
least) ammonia.... nitrite. And have a LARGE volume of water avail. for
Temp is 82 should it be higher to speed up Ich cycle ?
<Yes; every little bit upward... Is there a link to a/the Q10 Factor? Oh
Would a fresh water dip be beneficial or just add more stress?
<Too late... yes and too stressful. I myself would try lowering the spg
to 1.020 today, maybe 1.015 the next and a regimen of CP (Chloroquine
(di)Phosphate). You should see the Net, WWM re... and get onto
finding/sourcing this ASAPractical... it too has potential downsides; so
the same cautions mentioned above are apropos>
I guess what I'm asking is can natural remedy's such as these help
restore fish immunity to help fight off parasites or is this all in
<Vain; and no; best at this juncture to move the "balance point" in
favor of your livestock... the system will almost assuredly remain or
was infested (latently)... Let's have you read here:
and esp. HERE:
And if the puffer and trigger remain in the tank with Ich what are the
chances of passing to Morays?
<Mmm; they already "have it"; Muraenids, most true eels don't show the
spottiness clinically as much as most other families of marine fishes...
You'll notice heavier (more -labored) more frequent gilling, excessive
body mucus.... Other symptoms if/when the eels are more/hyper infested>
Thank You all very much.
<Lower the spg., look for the quinine, DO the reading. Bob Fenner>
Re: Natural Cryptocaryon remedy 8/25/16
Thank you Mr. Fenner,
I can't tell you how grateful I am to you and your groups help.
<Ah, welcome. I've spent more than fifty years in the trade... I can
imagine indeed. BobF>
Ich! But from where? 8/10/16
Hello WWM Crew,
How are you fine people today?
<A bit sleepy thus far... maybe 17% thus far; you?>
Thanks for keeping this site alive with all this information for us hobbyists. I
will try to keep it short. I started up a 150g tank and after 2 ½ months I added
some crabs, snails and 2 shrimp they all did fine so I added my first fish. He
also did well so I started adding my fish from my 90g slowly one at a time.
Everybody was doing fine in their new home, very active all alert and eating
very well. The tank has been running for about 6 months now so I decided to get
a Heniochus. My LFS had one for about 3 weeks and I would check him out every
week and he was eating, active, alert and no signs of parasites, so I bought
<Mmm; likely H. acuminatus or... the two more popular, commonly offered species.
Really need to be kept in a small school of odd-numbers... three, five... Social
animals that get VERY stressed when kept singly... and sometimes very picky
toward esp. other Chaetodontids>
I put him in my 90g which now is a QT and kept him there for one month he was
doing very well, very alert and active and ate very well. While he was in QT
there were no signs of parasites so after the 1 month QT I put him in the 150g
with a FW dip on the way there.
The only fish that harassed him was the Yellow Tang. There was no nipping or
chasing just asserting himself on the Heniochus. After about 5 days you guessed
it, white spots on the Heni. There are not many just a couple on his tail.
<Mmm; well; might not be Crypt... perhaps Trematodes, or even "just"
damage/reaction zones... like a bruise in humans>
I don't have access to CP just yet so I started soaking the food in Seachem
Metroplex, Selcon and Garlic and they are all eating it like pigs but I am still
seeing a couple of white spots on the Heniochus. He makes frequent trips to the
<Again; not necessarily a harbinger of doom>
I will have access to CP in 3 weeks but in the meantime do you think I should
keep using the Metroplex?
<Not for anymore than the label recommends. Metronidazole itself is a "kidney
In your opinion do you think I will have a full blown infestation and have to
remove all and treat in a QT or is this maybe just a case of stress? I
appreciate and value your opinion.
<I wouldn't panic... NOT move the fishes, NOT treat the system further.
Cryptocaryon can/does come in on anything wet at times. VERY likely your system
has a "latent" infestation (I'd easily wager that almost all systems do)... Read
instead of fretting... Start here:
and the linked files above.>
Thanks so much in advance
<Again; don't despair. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich! But from where? 8/12/16
Hello Mr. Fenner
Thanks for the response. I am more awake than you as I am in Montreal Canada so
my day was half over by the time you sent the response.
<Ahh; about 2 PM or so here PST; about half sentient now>
I have read the link you sent before along with many other articles about Ich. I
just found it strange that I took precautions by QT and FW dipping and ended up
with white spots on him,
<Meh; very common. Isolation won't cure anything by itself... and there are MANY
instances where Crypt is deeply embedded, not susceptible to hyposalinity..
B'sides, the Crypt was highly likely (99.9 percent plus) already established in
by the way he is Acuminatus.
I did read a lot about them before buying and I am aware that they do better in
groups but they get so big I think 3 in a 150g is too much.
<Up to you. A singleton usually does just fine in a large enough system>
For the Metronidazole the instructions say to treat for 3 weeks or till symptoms
<Mmm; yes; IMO, humble or not, this is too long. If interested, do a bit of look
seeing re nephritic conditions and this compound>
The LFS suggested to use 1/4 of the measuring spoon supplied but the directions
call for 1 measuring spoon to 1 spoon of food. I was using 1/4 spoon and it
wasn't enough so I used a full spoon for 3 days before I wrote to you
and it seems to be working.
How much can fish take before kidney failure and what are the symptoms
of kidney failure?
<How to put this (twixt you and I not knowing each other well); this is more of
a successive approximation situation... every little bit hurts. Rather than a
threshold response... no problem till you get to such a point. All exposure is
I have stopped the treatment since you wrote back to me and will wait it out.
Thanks so much again and nice talking to you.
I saw your video with the Fishguys and you remind me of Paul Sorvino. Have a
<Heeee! Will have to look up this handsome devil. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Hepatus Tang & Ich
Dear Bob & Crew,
<Hey Joe; "where you goin' w/ that fish net in your hand....?">
Thank you again for your passion for marine life! Love the books
Just a quick question today. I have a Blue Tang (Hepatus) in Quarantine
that I would like to add to my year old 155g in-wall reef. I've had ich
wipe out my fish before and it is not pretty. I am extremely nervous
about adding the new addition. If I could start over, I would add the
Hepatus first to prevent spreading ich to other fish.
Regardless, I do think that I will add it to the display shortly. The
tang has been in QT for 3 months. Upon arrival it displayed a small
degree of white spot that has come and gone repeatedly. Coloration,
personality, and appetite are wonderful! It is in QT with a Clarkii
Clown which curiously has shown no evidence of ich for the duration of
the 3 months. I am feeding a variety of pellet (NLS, Ocean Nutrition)
flakes and many species of dried algae, all soaked in garlic
concentrate. Feeding is three times daily and the Tang appears to have
grown a bit.
Any thoughts on successfully acclimating this fellow (2.5" by the way)
to the display?
<You haven't treated the fish prophylactically as yet? I would
at least dip/bath it incoming and enroute to the main/display... and
likely have fed it CP per the SOP on WWM or Goemans and Ichinotsubo>
Current fish in the 155g are: 5" Sailfin Tang, Flame Angel, 5 Blue
Chromis, 2 Skunk Clowns, and a Mandarin Goby. I was planning on NOT
administering a freshwater dip for fear or stressing it.
<Better this than casual Crypt et al. introduction>
You may disagree. I will also be gradually matching the salinity and
temperature of the two tanks before introduction.
I've noticed that several people have these fish that exhibit
the onset/offset of white spots and that it does not always transmit (at
least visually) to other fish.
<Well-worded. Yes to "it not showing" and most all systems having latent
I find it interesting how virulent ich can be at times while other times
seemingly be innocuous.
<Ahh! Wise of you to state>
Thanks so much!!Joe
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Purple Tang - Ich - Cupramine
I have a dilemma and would appreciate your great advice as always.
Note that I have a permanent running and fully established 75 gallon
About 4 weeks ago I purchased a Purple Tang (maybe 5 inches in size).
<What did Gurley Halleck expound when seeing his first worm in "Dune"?
"Egads, what a monster"! This is a big Zebrasoma to purchase, collect
from the wild>
I purchased it from a reputable LFS. It was eating like a pig, was
active, and showed no signs of illness. They stated that it had been in
their possession for a few weeks.
As I do all new fish arrivals, I put it into my QT/Hospital tank for
close to two weeks.
<Mmm; no dip/bath enroute? I would do so... to "knock off" Protozoans,
Trematodes... external issues>
It was fine, eating like a pig, no issues, no illness. Thus, I moved it
to my 150 gallon DT. This tank has been disease free and all the
readings are very good. I believe in "over-filtration", thus there's
plenty of flow, a UV filter, oversized skimmer, oversized sump pump,
refugium (with Macroalgae, red mangroves..), and about 100+ pounds of
live rock...etc. I have high powered LED's on the tank. There's been no
issues of aggression within the tank and the Purple Tang would be
hypothetically considered the most aggressive type of fish in that tank
and the currently largest fish
for that tank, excluding a well fed 10 inch Snowflake Eel that minds his
own business and who's been a good citizen.
<Echidna spp. usually are>
Other inhabitants are a 3 inch Flame Angel, a 3 inch Koran Angel, a 4
inch Majestic Rabbitfish, and a 3 inch Sailfin Tang.
I knew that I was "rolling the dice" with the Sailfin Tang already being
in there, but after a lot of reading and visiting with LFS' I was fairly
confident it would work as I've previously introduced a Sailfin Tang
into a different 150 gallon tank with an established Yellow Tang that
has worked out well thus far and for over a year. IMO, from research and
experience, it seems like the Sailfin Tang's are more likely to co-exist
of the Zebra species if introduced at a different time.
<This is my and many others (recorded) experience as well>
After a little bit of posturing back and forth maybe for 2 days, the
Purple Tang and the Sailfin Tang adjusted and accepted each other. I
never witnessed any chasing or nipping, simply a bit of posturing,
flaring up of the fins. The Purple Tang continues to eat well. However,
within the last week the Purple Tang has developed Ich. None of
the other fish display any signs of Ich.
<Common and not uncommon>
The Purple Tang continues to eat like a pig, swims all over the place,
and seems very healthy, very happy, except for the Ich, always very
eager to eat, getting excited when I approach the tank. I feed him and
the tank a mix of mysis shrimp, brine/Spirulina, and algae sheets.
Since he developed Ich I've been adding Socol, VitaChem, and Metroplex
mixed with Garlic into the food this tank eats. All of the fish eagerly
eat at each feeding which is 3 to 4x a day. Usually I feed 2x a day, but
I stepped up feedings to hopefully strengthen their immune systems.
Here's my dilemma, I could move the Purple Tang to my QT/Hospital tank,
which seems like a no brainer, and for most any other fish I would do it
ASAP, but this Purple Tang, despite its case of Ich is a very happy fish
that's very active and eats like a pig. I am concerned about stressing
it out, trying to catch it, then move it to a new tank. Might this put
into a downward spiral?
<It could; yes>
I've always successfully used 1/2 the recommended dosage of Cupramine to
treat Ich. Keeping the fish in QT for 4 weeks. I just ordered some
Dr.G's Caviar that includes CP too that I intend to feed this 150 gallon
DT with the Purple Tang. I've done some research on Purple Tang's and
Cupramine and it appears that they might have more sensitivity than most
other fish to Cupramine?
<Tangs and allies... and a few other fish families/groups too... You can
search, read this on WWM, in books I've penned>
Thus, this too, makes me think I should continue to treat the DT with
medicated food. However, am I doing the right thing? Would you move the
Purple Tang to the QT? Thank you.
<I would NOT move the Tang... but leave in place, continue w/
the feeding treatments you're doing and have planned. Some
archived input on the subject here:
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Fw: Purple Tang - Ich - Cupramine
I forgot to mention that this 150 gallon DT with the Purple Tang is a
reef tank, thus my use of treatment so far by medicated food.
<Ahh; please read here as well:
and the linked.... B>
Re: Purple Tang - Ich - Cupramine 6/10/16
Thanks Bob. I very much appreciate your expertise. I really needed
someone of your caliber of experience to review my dilemma and give
<Glad to share, render it>
My gut has been to keep the Purple Tang in the DT considering it behaves
very healthy, eats like a pig, seems really well adjusted, except for
the Ich, but I've been torn, knowing that I have an established QT.
BTW, note that on my QT/Hospital tank, for all new arrivals, unless I am
aware of any sensitivity to Cupramine, I dose the QT tank with 1/4 to
1/2 the recommended dosage of Cupramine for two weeks as my method to
treat for any diseases before introducing them into the DT.
<Mmm; well; the standard spiel re treatments, moda am sure you're
familiar w/; and Cu++ exposure period... does more harm than good
beneath some threshold "physiological" dose... likely near/below 0.15
ppm you're poisoning the fish hosts more than accomplishing any positive
This strategy has worked really well for me on new introductions thus
far except for this Purple Tang. I have ParaGuard, PraziPro, and Ich
Attack available in my arsenal to use too that I had tried in my earlier
keeping days for new arrivals, however, from experience, I've had by far
the most success with Cupramine at a reduced dosage thus I've stuck with
it for new arrivals. Beyond this, my strategy for any new coral arrivals
is to use ReefDip for 30 minutes.
<Ah, good. I've used and caused to purchase hundreds of carboys of
Cupramine. Am a fan as well. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Purple Tang - Ich - Cupramine 6/10/16
A worthy summation re Cu use in aquatics:
honest questions. Crypt. Reading 4/23/16
I write to you, 230 am eastern time here, (NJ, great snorkeling,
unlimited barnacles and syringes)
I have tirelessly compiled data, cut and copy faq's and literature
written by yourself, Steven Pro, and various experienced reefers on reef
I feel I have a good grasp, however I have some wholes that need
filling, and also wish to have your opinion that I have not seen
I will keep it short, I know you have many people to help.
Gap 1. Does copper, more specifically Cupramine, kill the
<Pro...? Read here:
Most of everything I read says it only targets and eradicates the stage
where it hatches out looking for a host. My question, deals with the
stages that falls off the fish, crawling around to encyst. I am asking
because I wish to know if a fish is added to copper, would the ich that
falls off looking to harden and encyst, be effected? I've also
encountered the phrase "copper kills free swimming stage", which to me
would imply all stages that don't involve the one embedded on the fish,
and the one that is in cyst form, waiting to hatch out.
Gap 2. I know in many instances in life, (to quote Jurassic Park), life
finds a way. Chloroquine phosphate was created to cure malaria, but in
time it stopped working. I have seen some accounts where reefers
(not scientifically credentialed) said copper was no longer effective
and therefore not the preferred method of choice.
<They're wrong. Still effective; often the best mode of control>
Has the time come, where we need to start looking past copper? (for
reasons of it not working, not for reasons of toxicity to fish or
difficulty maintaining levels)
And lastly, my tank is now 36 days fallow. I plan on running two more.
All of the fish have been in Cupramine, and once the two more weeks have
expired, they would have been in copper for 7 weeks. I see many people
are using tank transfer method. I was going to do this, as an added
measure, insurance policy if you will.
Is this, in your experience, over kill, more stress than needed,
considering the time they would have spent in therapeutic levels of
<Already gone over and over on WWM>
Part of me says the copper should suffice (if indeed it is still a
viable weapon), the other half says to execute ttm, although, that is
more steps, and ultimately more stress.
That is all I have. Trying to put the pieces together, and in the 50
plus pages I have in m binder. those holes are still vacant.
Thanks in advance, Bob
Quarantine commitment... Cryptic Crypt f's ongoing
Thanks to your site, I think I have given my fish the best chance
against parasites. Before quarantining, I lost a handful of fish life,
and vowed to not make that ugly mistake again happen on my watch.
I let the tank run fallow for at least 30 days, (60 days, not by design,
but had house issues happening at the same time) I also treated the fish
in a separate quarters with copper.
So far only a hippo tang will show some white spot intermittently, as I
believe like you, ich is always present, but less so having run fallow
and weakening the parasite.
As a preventative for new fish, I was wondering what you think of my
Using tank transfer (moving fish every 72 hours, 4 times total)
which should prevent ich if done correctly.
<Not likely; no... all "it takes" is missing one, some. Best to optimize
environment, nutrition... we've been over this>
Knowing this does nothing for velvet, using Cupramine, on these
It. would be simple to make up 30 gallons of water, with .5 Cupramine
level, and use that as the new water for the 72 hour transfers.
My reservation comes with a notable Reef central member stating that
copper may complicate the ich life cycle.
.I've always understood that ich need to fall off the fish within 3-7
days, and in my mind, because copper is there, they couldn't choose to
hold off and wait for copper to go away before falling off an continuing
What do you think
<Your last idea is valid. B>
re: Morning bob
Ongoing chatting re Crypt; life
Thanks for the replies. It's amazing, the ttm idea , of moving the fish,
seems like the Bible way of doing it to almost anyone I speak to.
<My usual response here: "Believe what you will till experience changes
However , the last idea I proposed to you, which you admitted to maybe
having some validity, is laughed at by the same.
<... all of these ideas, methods have been gone over and over.
ALL the wholesalers in the world, MOST all the collectors, retailers,
jobbers STILL use copper.... READ IT, BELIEVE IT, LIVE IT. Stop wasting
y/our time and killing livestock heedlessly>
I agree, when you transfer fish, you are transferring the water with
them, some, even if a little. Percentage wise, even if you leave behind
99 percent of them, well you still have too many that made the trip.
It's amazing the long time guys in the more respectable sites push ttm.
However, I don't see it happening that way, and I at least feel better
an expert as yourself leans the same way.
<Not a matter of one "expert", a person's opinions vs. others.... Simply
science and history>
I believe what was meant when someone stated the copper complicating the
cycle, was the ich will adapt and hold on to the fish longer if copper
is present, and wait it out until it can continue.
<What? Nonsense... the copper is a proteinaceous precipitant... causes
the fish host to exude... slough off... Except (here it comes) for
deeply embedded parasites>
That would imply they have free choice, not a designated life cycle.
<Shades of DEVO! "Freedom of choice (or parasites) is what you want...">
If that were the case, even in clean, copper free water, who's to say
the same "feeling" of waiting more time wouldn't apply.
I will do 7- 14 days in proper copper range, hope the studies of 2-7
days are correct, and hope the copper kills and prevents the cycle from
Thanks again bob
re: Morning bob 6/9/16
Under and agreed, 100x over.
I would pay to see you converse with the gentleman (sometime not so
gentle) on reef central, but the Lord knows you have way better things
up your sleeve. Sad part is, dozens of not hundreds listen to them on a
daily basis, shame on them, sorrowful for the fish.
<Don't know who or really what you're referring to. I don't "do" the bbs>
I know you actively keep goldfish as a pet from prior conversation.
<Ahh, not for years. Unfortunately those (Eheim) tanks failed>
If you were to do a "saltwater" tank, which direction would you go?
<Our companies installed many such systems decades back... and I was a
keeper as well. Given time, circumstances... I'd like to do culture...
likely dwarf Pomacanthids, hybrids of such... and the food organisms to
rear their young>
Something tells me it wouldn't be the norm mixed reef or fowlr tank.
Thinking more the lines of a non photosynthetic, deep water tank with
Nudibranchs and mantis shrimp.
Advice please... Y Tang stkg., comp.
Greetings, Recently I set up a reef tank 265 gallon and I got the
aquarium design from a book called “ Aquarium Model Designs” by John
Tullock. In one of his designs, he called for 9 yellow tangs in a 180
gallon. This design is called “ Cheerful Yellow”. I am sure you know of
<Yes; have a copy; know JohnT>
I have a 265 gallon fully cycled tank so I added 9 young, small Yellow
tangs, a medium size purple tang and 20 azure damsels. After a day of
calm, the YTs started fighting and 2 weeks in, all develop a severe case
<Mmm; yes... and this picking is very likely to continue. Yellow Tangs
need to be much more or less crowded than this... else you'll suffer
However all YTs are eating like machines. The PT also had Ich but now no
signs of Ich is seen now. I have had him for 7 years in my old 210
gallon and he had recovered from ich in the past w/o treatment. Please
tell me if this plan is a good plan:
- Remove all the yellow tangs and treat them/sell them to LFS.
- Leave the azure damsels and PT in the tank if they do not show signs
- Let the tank be for 6 weeks. If there is NO signs of Ich on the
damsels and the PT, then add a school of true schooling fish such as
Chromis and the nicer blue reef type.
I believe 9 tangs in a 265 is not doable as the author led me to
<I do agree>
Please tell me if my anticipated plan is appropriate.
<It is one route to go... you will have a resident, residual Crypt
infestation... most if not all systems do... With challenges like poor
water quality, dips in nutrition... bringing on clinical signs>
I have few corals in the tank so treating the disease in the tank is not
possible. Thank you and I look forward to your reply. Dai
<MUCH more could be stated; IS archived on WWM re. I'd spend some time
reading... re Crypt; parasitized systems, Tangs and Protozoans.... Bob
Re: Advice please... Yellow Tang (in)comp., stocking lg. SW sys. f's
<Salud. Have re-read our correspondence. Thank you for including>
Let me update you on my tang situation. Now I have 6 remaining yellow
tangs and they all are eating and very active, No signs of ich anywhere
but I lost 4 due to ich. (40% loss). Now all the damsels (20 +), the
purple Tang and 6 YTs are doing well. Some days they fight with each
other but no fish seems to be bullied/sulk into a corner and some days
they don't mind each other at all. Now I have 2 questions:
1. I would like to add medium sized hippo and a medium Naso. I had them
with the PT in my previous 210 without any issues. However they did not
make it in the dealer tank (too small tank) when I was getting my new
tank cycled. When would be a good time to add them?
<Mmm; any time; however; there is a good chance of bringing back
(clinically) the Crypt/Ich on at least the new Tangs; due to stress...>
I understand there are still active ich but they cannot infect the
current fish because these are healthy and not stressed. Should I wait 3
months or add now?
<Later would be better>
2. Is it a bad idea to add 2 more same size YTs?
<Likely so; yes. I would NOT add more>
I am concern about disrupting the equilibrium now that may bring back
onset of ich. I believe it is a bad idea but I thought I run through it
Thank you Mr. Fenner for all you do! Thanks again Dai
<Glad to share Dai. Bob Fenner>