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FAQs on Marine Ich, Cryptocaryoniasis (and Other Protozoans) & Treating Sensitive Fishes: Tangs & Rabbitfishes 4

Related Articles: Marine Ich: Fighting The War On Two Fronts Cryptocaryoniasis, Parasitic Disease, Quarantine, Quarantine of Marine Fishes

Related FAQs: Tangs/Rabbits Crypt 1, Tangs/Rabbits Crypt 2, Tangs/Rabbits Crypt 3, &  Tang DiseaseTang Health/Disease 2, Tang Health/Disease 4, Tang Health/Disease 5Tang Disease 6, Tang Disease 7, Tang Disease 8, Tang Health 9, Tang Disease 10, Rabbitfish Disease, Best Crypt FAQs, Crypt FAQs 1, Crypt FAQs 2, Crypt FAQs 3, Crypt FAQs 4, Crypt FAQs 5 Crypt FAQs 6, Crypt FAQs 7, Crypt FAQs 8, Crypt FAQs 9, Crypt FAQs 10, Crypt FAQs 11, Crypt FAQs 12, Crypt FAQs 13, Crypt FAQs 14, Crypt FAQs 15, Crypt FAQs 16, Crypt FAQs 17, Crypt FAQs 18, Crypt FAQs 19, Crypt FAQs 20, Crypt FAQs 21, Crypt FAQs 22, Crypt FAQs 23, Crypt FAQs 24, & FAQs on Crypt: Identification, Prevention, "Causes", Phony Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work,  Products That Work By Name: Free Copper/Cupric Ion Compounds (e.g. SeaCure), Chelated Coppers (e.g. Copper Power, ), Formalin Containing: (e.g. Quick Cure),  About: Hyposalinity & Ich, Treating for Crypt & Sensitive Fishes:  By Group: Sharks/Rays, Morays and other Eels, Mandarins/Blennies/Gobies, Wrasses, Angels and Butterflyfishes Puffers & Kin...  &  Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Marine Velvet Disease, Biological Cleaners, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Infectious Disease

Yellow Tang, Crypto, Reading -- 11/04/2009
Hi,
<Hey there! JustinN here!>
I have a yellow tang in a 55g tank i also have 3 yellow tail damsels, 1 bicolor Dottyback, and 2 scooter blennies. The tank has been up since September-19-09.
<This tank is too small ultimately for the Tang, and likely too immature to support even a single scooter blenny, much less two. The tang has potential to outsize the tank very quickly, and the scooter blennies are obligate fauna feeders -- they will pick your tank clean of their necessary food source quickly.>
I got a yellow tang on October-3-09 and he was doing fine until I had a ich infection which i treated with Kordon Rid-Ich+.
<Treated in your display? This should be done in a quarantine tank.>
I am still treating with this the yellow tang has no visible signs of ich but the Dottyback does.
<Is parasitic, and communicable to all fish in a mixed display here. This is why Quarantine is so important.>
I have just noticed (about 3 days ago) red spots on the Yellow tang and they seem to be getting worst by the day.
<Sounds like chemical burn/irritation here>
He looks like he has hole in head. The red spots are at the tail. I can't identify what they are. My tanks recent test values are as follows: Nitrate-30, Nitrite-0, Alkalinity-300, pH-7.9.
<What is your Salinity at? Your pH is a bit low, should be in the 8.1-8.3 range -- Nitrate should be at, or as close to, 0 as possible. The nitrate alone may be enough to cause the burning, but if the Formalin/Malachite
solution is being dosed too highly, this could easily cause the 'burning' as well."
Their is a small electrical current measuring .002v in the tank.
<Most likely unrelated, but there shouldn't be stray voltage in your tank.>
The filtration is a emperor 400 filter and a coral life super skimmer for a 125g tank.
<The main thing you need here is some reading -- your tank is very immature, and is likely still going through its establishing nitrogen cycle. Exacerbating this is your stocking levels -- you have too many fish, far too soon, and the tank is still attempting to establish its biota balance. In addition to this, by treating your display tank with the Formalin/Malachite compound, you are effectively killing all beneficial bacterium/biological filtration available in your tank. These medications treat indiscriminately. More reading is in order -- start here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm
http://wetwebmedia.com/stocking1.htm http://wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm
http://wetwebmedia.com/watrqualmar.htm
http://wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm
 and related subheadings. -JustinN>

Tangs... a bunch of hooey and a direction to read re protozoan infested systems  05/23/09
Okay first I have a 90 reef set up where I have a Blue Hippo 5" and a yellow tang 4.5" and a 3.5" blue eyed kole tang living happily together. I also have several small angels mixed happily as well.
<Several as in the M.E. "many?">
So please don't always act like it can't be done with these dramatic it is horror stories...
<I don't>
second is where I am having the problem and thought I would add that 5 fairy wrasses live happily in this tank without all the horror stories...
<Who is reading your fishes these horror stories?>
it is my 75 reef tank. I can't get a tang to live in there. I just finally found out that a hitch hiker on my live rock; this tang disease or black spot or black ick might be the culprit.
<Nah... an old roomie (Mike Kent) worked extensively on Paravortex... not "that" deleterious a (space) parasite>
The Tangs I have put in look like dust is on them in the morning
<Oh! This is a Protozoan... likely Cryptocaryon>
and I have 2 cleaner wrasses
<Labroides not advised... and won't "cure" such issues>
in there and they would have them clean in no time I also have 2 cleaner shrimp as well, plus the fairies clean as well I have noticed. Now I know wrasses eat flat worms
<Mmm, no... only a few wrasses eat some kinds/species of Platyhelminths... most are very unpalatable>
and this tang black spot ick is said to be a flat worm so why aren't they gone yet?  I can't use copper in the tank because of the coral and the only ones dying are any tangs I put in there. I raised a yellow eye kole in my micro reef and let him in there, thinking it was poor quality fish from the stores. Even he didn't survive past a month. I left it without tangs for over a month and it comes back. I have tried many kinds of different tangs and they always die in the first week. How do I get around this?
<... you have an entrenched (resident) Crypt infestation... Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Tangs... another day, more reading 05/24/09
Thanks, I wasn't saying the responder directly was saying the horror stories but when I read thru the FAQs I saw a lot of complaints about mixing tangs...sorry if I offended
<No worries Rev>
I read up on this crypt thing and I think that is it. I saw it takes up to 90 days
<Most times, cases, sooner than this>
to die off in the tank and treat it typically like ick to kill it with lower salinity and above 80 temps.
<One approach>
They survived last summer when ac broke at 85 so I will let it dance into the low 80s and take the sal, to 1.020 to help speed the process.
<Won't do it>
One last question I saw it said Rabbitfish and surgeons(tangs) get it, but some of the stuff I read sounded like other fish could be affected.
<All species are to degrees susceptible>
My other fish have lived for months with no problems will they be safe as the crypt dies off while I wait out this 90 day period to kill it off.
<Read on... your other fishes are just sub-clinical... BobF>

Re: Tangs with White Spot (possible Crypt) Overstocking. 4/29/2009
Sorry for thee lack of information
<Hello Youssef, no problem>
My tank 55 gallons with sump; mechanical filter and wet and dry.
Inside I have 4 small blue tangs (hippo)
<There is no way four hippo Tangs will survive in a 55 gallon tank.>
1 large Sailfin < Grows to 16", needs a minimum of 150 gallons, 300 gallons would actually be better.>
2 Pseudochromis <Aggressive>
1 small blue damselfish <Aggressive>
2 percula clown fish <Aggressive>
1 small yellow wrasse
2 yellow clown gobies
2 cleaner shrimps
1 blue cleaner wrasse
Thanks in advance
<Youssef, your tank is dangerously overstocked. The mix of fish you have in this tank is not sustainable. It is likely that your hippo Tang does have Ich Hippo Tangs are more vulnerable to it than most, especially when stressed.>
<You will need to set up some sort of hospital or quarantine tank.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm>
<Do consider returning most of these fish to the store. Do read here
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/stocking1.htm >
<Mike>

Re: More Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like...  11/17/08
Bob,
<Tom>
Thanks for the follow up. I don't have questions much as updates. I had a lengthy discussion with Dr. Bryan at Natl. Fish Pharm regarding this disease. I have not had any success in treating it. I have kept Quinine in the water constantly, always with the same results - Ich present the next morning, only on this one fish. The Tomato Clown has shown some cysts present, but not always, and no where near the number as on this Atlantic Blue Tang (100+).
<Dang!>
Dr. Bryan said what you said in your reply... that something might be pulling the medication out of the system. There is no carbon in the tank, nor any poly filters. The UV filter has been off. The protein skimmer has been running, but only for water flow - the air intake has been off so it has not been skimming. If something is pulling medication out of the water,
<The substrate... alkaline earth materials... mainly calcium, magnesium... little doubt>
it is a mystery to me. The filtration is as follows: Fluval FX5, bio-media only; 150 gallon rated wet/dry filter, bio balls, standard blue/white filter pad rinsed weekly; Prism Pro skimmer with air flow turned off.
Last night, I did a 20% water change and put the skimmer back on. The water quality has been deteriorating due to medication and lack of skimming, to the point where now I've got Cyanobacteria and excessive algae blooms. I have been doing partials throughout the treatment, but with the excessive treatment length and lack of skimming, I'm thinking the fish are suffering more from poor water quality than the parasite.
<I agree with you>
One interesting thing was that the last time I had to use this treatment, the quinine killed the Cyano... now it is not. It does seem like the medication is not in the water. So I guess I do have a question... how could medication be removed from the tank?
<Again... mostly the chemical family mentioned (second column from the left in Mendelevian periodic charts... to lesser extents other materials in the water... I would move the fishes, treat elsewhere, sans substrate, other carbonaceous materials>
I'm to the point where I'm thinking I may have to let this run its course.
I have to move to a new house in a week and break this entire tank down.
I won't take these fish to any dealer for fear of introducing this resistant strain of ick into any other systems. If all the fish die, then I can let it sit fallow for a few months, though I wonder if the ick will be gone even
with that course of action. I hate the thought of doing that, though. I have some copper safe and a test kit, which I have not used. I'm sure that if I put that in there, all that live rock will absorb copper and be worthless from that point on.
I've attached the best picture I could take of the tang, not that you can make much of the photo.
<Is "beat"... thin... Do consider treating all in an "empty" setting>
Thomas Roach
<Bob Fenner>

Re: Tang with powerful ich, re discussion Wednesday 11/17/2008
Hey, Mr. Fenner
<Tom>
I saw your reply posted on WetWeb, and haven't gotten the email yet so I wanted to add one bit of info. He does look 'beat' and thin... Wednesday night I gave him a FW dip to try and give him some relief, ph adjusted, for about 4 minutes. He still looks rough from that, but is eating well. I'm looking at some options for treating in a bare tank, and this is one of them, tell me your opinion....
When I move this tank this weekend, in theory I can set it up bare initially. I could leave the LR in a cooler with a powerhead while I do this, as long as necessary to let the LR go fallow. I've had a portion of LR, along with snails, hermits and starfish now for about a month, and I'm leaning towards leaving them separate even longer to fallow it out. The tank is 200 gallons, and running it with the filtration listed in the other email and quinine, would the bio media in the wet/dry and the FX5 be enough to eliminate ammonia/nitrite build up?
<Should be, though there may be a lag time, a minor "mini-cycle">
Of course I'll be monitoring it, just wondering what you would expect. I think I'm not going to worry about the sand, as far as preserving bacteria. I'm going to give it a good freshwater rinsing to clean it before putting it back in, figuring the majority of the beneficial bacteria is on the LR anyhow.
If this is the way to go, it will be done. Even if this fish passes, I'll be unable to add any other fish due to the presence of this scourge... I have to kill it one way or the other.
Thomas Roach
<Only experience can/will show here. Bob Fenner>

Naso Tang 007, hlth.   10/14/08
Dear Crew,
First off, thank you for a wonderful web-site. I just happen upon it a few weeks ago and thoroughly enjoying reading all the vast amount of information. It's very commendable of you to offer such a tremendous service. I do own a copy of CMA. Great book Dr. Fenner!
<Mmm, no doctorate, just Bob, please>
I'm somewhat of a newbie in that I left the hobby several years ago as time constraints (i.e. 3 children) along with moving to new residence kept me from re-establishing my tank. Anyhow, my reason for writing today is that I am starting up my 300 gal. FOWLR and have made my first fish purchase. One of the fish being a 6" Blonde Naso Tang. This fish was offered at discount through the retailer (F&S) you mention on your web-site frequently. (I wonder if it had been in their tank for long period of time, thus the reason for the discounted price?)
<Possibly>
I received the fish on Weds. afternoon and by Sat. morning he developed what appears to me to be Lateral Line Disease. I am attaching a picture for your review.
<I see>
The Naso was placed in quarantine tank 30 gal.(4' x 1' x 1' ) upon receipt on Weds. 10/08. The water in the quarantine tank is being treated each day with Kordon's Prevent Ich per their instructions.
<Mmm, won't "treat" HLLE... in fact the ingredients here, the further stress... will drive all the other direction>
Water parameters are as follows: spg 1.023,
<Mmm, low, but likely better here for gas exchange purposes>
ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates <5, temp. 76, ph 8.2. He is currently not accepting food i.e. mysis shrimp, krill dip in vita-chem, red algae w/garlic sheets, flakes, etc.
<Stop! I would move this fish (back) into the 300 gallon setting... The etiology/causative mechanism of the syndrome shown won't "spread" as a consequence to other livestock... and otherwise the chance of this fish resolving is very small>
He is not actively swimming around tank, occasional stroll and then sits on bottom.
<More bad behavior>
Today, Monday, he has started gilling. I have been using a power head position right at the water-line to agitate the surface so that there's plenty of air mixing with the water.
<Mmm, not for this species... Move it>
Could you please confirm my diagnoses and provide any other information on treatment as well as suggestions on what else can be done to save him. I read all that I could find own your web-site with respect HIHLL and seems to me that the general consensus for its cause is related to nutrition and water quality.
<Yes, this is so>
With that being the case, what could have caused this condition in such a short period of time (3 1/2 days) given the water parameters?
<Stress period... as you speculate, just how long has this fish been kept, moved about in sub-par conditions?>
Your response most appreciated.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Emailing: Naso Tag 007... reading... Crypt    10/14/08
Thank you Bob for your response.
<Welcome Scott>
Sorry about calling you Dr. but, a man of with your wealth of knowledge and experience certainly qualifies you to be one. Just wanted to clarify a few things. First off, the Tang did perish yesterday afternoon ( I wish I had received your reply sooner as I would have acted on your advise to move him). Secondly, I was following the personal recommendation of one Kordon's scientist/marine biologist who said I should quarantine all tangs for about six weeks
<Mmm, please see at least WWM re my opinions here and rationale for same... we differ>
and treat the quarantine tank initially with Kordon's organic Prevent Ich product
<... and my input re this product. NOT reliable>
for seven days and stop if no Ich presents. He stated that Tangs were notorious for carrying Ich
<This is so>
and by using this product it would likely eradicate any internal/external parasites( I assumed he wasn't giving me a sales pitch!).
<Mostly>
The HIHLL problem did not present until after nearly two days of quarantining.
<Likely the Kordon product was more cause here...>
I did not realize that the product in question would create additional stress as there is no information to contrary on Kordon's Prevent Ich label/ web-site. Thirdly, I did not do a freshwater dip as your web-site seemed to indicate that this method should not be utilized for Tangs unless parasites were observed on the fish prior to placing it in the quarantine tank. Would this have made a difference for this fish?
<Perhaps... but... only can guess>
So should I be employing a different strategy for my quarantining fish?
<... you should... read>
This Kordon product is somewhat new and does not require water changes during treatment (tremendous benefit).
<... again, take a look on the BBs... others input... Kordon is a good co., with many fine products... this is not one of them>
All other fish, yellow tang, blue hippo, and one spot fox face seem to be doing fine during this treatment.
Thank you again for your time.
Scott
<BobF>






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